Slog Comments
SL Letter of the Day: Sex and the Single Trans Man
1
Stay away from that guy and hope he stays away from you.
I guess if the LW is concerned about identifying himself too soon, he can make observations about transfolk to see what kinds of attitude the guy he's conversing with. Say something about hanging out with one of his friends who's trans, for instance, and gauge the reaction.
I guess if the LW is concerned about identifying himself too soon, he can make observations about transfolk to see what kinds of attitude the guy he's conversing with. Say something about hanging out with one of his friends who's trans, for instance, and gauge the reaction.
2
When I said "hope he stays away," I think my meaning is clear, but in case it isn't, I'm just asking the LW to keep in mind that he really doesn't know anything about the other guy and whether he's the type to get into online harassment. So just be careful, and get your friends to support you if anything happens. Good luck, kid.
3
OK, LW, I know being trans isn't easy. It's probably pretty fucking tough. But, you're going to have to get comfy with your identity and make it part of you. As Dan says, be up front about it. Sure you'll get a bit more rejection, but you don't want to chase after somebody who doesn't want you, do you? I didn't think so. There are plenty of guys who wouldn't mind being with a transman. Go find them by being up front about it. Own it. And work it.
Good luck.
Good luck.
4
By "wouldn't mind" I actually meant "would like to be". What I was actually trying to say is there are guys who are happy to date cis-men and trans-men alike.
6
Two weeks isn't "right-away-ish"?? Two weeks is a "big emotional investment"? I feel for LW and didn't think his disclosure time showed poor judgment. It didn't work out, as (sorry for it to be true) many disclosures might go this way for him. So, curious: if not Day One and not Day 14, what is the magic number?
7
HNATBP did right; he disclosed before actual physical stuff became an issue. I concur with all the "good riddances" that I'm seeing.
It's not like banging someone before you tell them you have an STD or marrying a woman and wasting years of her life when you know you're gay and she doesn't. It was two effin' weeks of online chatting.
It's not like banging someone before you tell them you have an STD or marrying a woman and wasting years of her life when you know you're gay and she doesn't. It was two effin' weeks of online chatting.
8
Dan has it right.
And if there are back and forth e-mails, texts, chats online on daily basis and you can tell that more is desired with the person...maybe within that first week is the time to share. But I don't know...I can't imagine there is a perfect formula. Though sooner is better I think.
And if there are back and forth e-mails, texts, chats online on daily basis and you can tell that more is desired with the person...maybe within that first week is the time to share. But I don't know...I can't imagine there is a perfect formula. Though sooner is better I think.
9
There are gay men who will date trans men. There are gay men who will not date trans men. Preop status might also come into it as well. The sooner you come out, the sooner you will know which kind of gay man a given one is.
Dont own the reasons some gay men will not date trans men, though, that is their thing, not yours. Find hte ones who will and make them your thing.
Dont own the reasons some gay men will not date trans men, though, that is their thing, not yours. Find hte ones who will and make them your thing.
10
"gay transman"
I must be getting old .... does that mean you like to hump trees, small animals or parishioners?
I must be getting old .... does that mean you like to hump trees, small animals or parishioners?
11
I agree with 6. Telling the guy before you meet up seems like a good line. (If only to avoid actual physical violence.) Maybe as soon as you started talking about meeting up, that would have been a good time? But two weeks of fun flirting didn't do your local guy any harm. He lashed out because he's upset, and that's due to his own issues.
I also agree with @1 that it might help to have some references to drop, things that people who are cool with trans-people would grok. Maybe the name of a local trans-friendly center, where you could mention you were hanging out with friends?
I also agree with @1 that it might help to have some references to drop, things that people who are cool with trans-people would grok. Maybe the name of a local trans-friendly center, where you could mention you were hanging out with friends?
12
I'm probably going to take a lot of heat for this, but I think that in a possible dating situation or one in which sex is presumed to be on the table at some point, the sooner the disclosure, the better. Why should a trans person waste his or her time with someone who may not be willing to date, have sex with, or fall in love with him or her? And why should someone have to wait to find out what is admittedly a big deal--for some people--about a person he or she is becoming romantically or sexually interested in?
It must be hard, it must be scary to think about facing that rejection and I understand that HNATBP and others, cis or trans, would like to think that there is more to them than their biological sex or gender, as of course there is. But waiting to disclose and hoping that once the potential date gets to know the "real you" s/he won't mind that you're not bio or cis gendered is a naive position take, more often than not.
Perhaps HNATBP should look at dating sites that cater to trans people and those who love them. This is not a very apt analogy, but there are dating websites for large people; an obese or large person is more likely to have success there, where people are actively seeking out what s/he has to offer, than s/he would be on a standard issue dating website, posting misleading photos of him or herself that don't reveal a true image.
True, HNATBP's options are more limited by sticking to such sites, but the crushing scenario he outlined is less likely to occur there.
As far as the suggestion that seatackled offered @1, I don't think that would be very useful as a screening tool. I have no issue with trans people, but don't want to date a trans man, so I would be very positive if someone mentioned that one of his friends was trans, but not interested in having a sexual relationship with someone who is. And that topic of conversation introduced in that way would not tip me off in the least.
More...
It must be hard, it must be scary to think about facing that rejection and I understand that HNATBP and others, cis or trans, would like to think that there is more to them than their biological sex or gender, as of course there is. But waiting to disclose and hoping that once the potential date gets to know the "real you" s/he won't mind that you're not bio or cis gendered is a naive position take, more often than not.
Perhaps HNATBP should look at dating sites that cater to trans people and those who love them. This is not a very apt analogy, but there are dating websites for large people; an obese or large person is more likely to have success there, where people are actively seeking out what s/he has to offer, than s/he would be on a standard issue dating website, posting misleading photos of him or herself that don't reveal a true image.
True, HNATBP's options are more limited by sticking to such sites, but the crushing scenario he outlined is less likely to occur there.
As far as the suggestion that seatackled offered @1, I don't think that would be very useful as a screening tool. I have no issue with trans people, but don't want to date a trans man, so I would be very positive if someone mentioned that one of his friends was trans, but not interested in having a sexual relationship with someone who is. And that topic of conversation introduced in that way would not tip me off in the least.
15
12: "I'm probably going to take a lot of heat for this, but here's exactly what Dan said, reiterated, plus more words words words words. Boy, will I take heat for this!"
Anyway. HNATBP, you're a trans guy - you've gotta get yourself a thicker skin. Get used to being rejected after you come out, because most of the world treats trans people like shit and potential romantic partners are no exception.
You didn't make any mistake with this guy. You're giving too much weight to the rationale he gave you for rejecting you. The truth is he was going to reject you whether you'd told him immediately or waited two years, because he doesn't want to date a trans guy. He just doesn't want to admit that to you, so he gives you a line of shit about "misleading" him.
Shake off this temporary setback and find someone who does want to date you.
Anyway. HNATBP, you're a trans guy - you've gotta get yourself a thicker skin. Get used to being rejected after you come out, because most of the world treats trans people like shit and potential romantic partners are no exception.
You didn't make any mistake with this guy. You're giving too much weight to the rationale he gave you for rejecting you. The truth is he was going to reject you whether you'd told him immediately or waited two years, because he doesn't want to date a trans guy. He just doesn't want to admit that to you, so he gives you a line of shit about "misleading" him.
Shake off this temporary setback and find someone who does want to date you.
16
This falls into the category of life isn't fair and it's more unfair for some people than for others. I'm gay, and I know life's not fair, but I can see that trans people have even more to deal with than I do.
But I can tell you that I don't think there's a trans man in the world I would ever love enough to want to have sex with. It's a deal breaker. If you're a man who doesn't have a functional penis, then I don't want to have sex with you.
Should I ever find myself in the situation where I have to deal with this, and so far I haven't, I will strive to be kind and gentle. Not returning someone's calls or texts isn't right. Blaming someone for being afraid to disclose earlier isn't right. But I'll be honest -- I won't have sex with a trans man, even if it means I'll be single for the rest of my life. I hope trans men understand that (and I don't kid myself that there are even any trans men who'd want to have sex with me), but even if they don't understand, I get to choose who I have sex with too.
But I can tell you that I don't think there's a trans man in the world I would ever love enough to want to have sex with. It's a deal breaker. If you're a man who doesn't have a functional penis, then I don't want to have sex with you.
Should I ever find myself in the situation where I have to deal with this, and so far I haven't, I will strive to be kind and gentle. Not returning someone's calls or texts isn't right. Blaming someone for being afraid to disclose earlier isn't right. But I'll be honest -- I won't have sex with a trans man, even if it means I'll be single for the rest of my life. I hope trans men understand that (and I don't kid myself that there are even any trans men who'd want to have sex with me), but even if they don't understand, I get to choose who I have sex with too.
18
@14: don't bother. StrangersWeakestTroll is like one of those toothless smelly guys who lurch up to you while you're trying to eat lunch outdoors or wait for a bus, jabber incoherently at you for thirty seconds while holding their hands out for change, and then stagger away while pissing themselves. He dives in, attempts to troll, fails miserably, and never bothers to read the followups because he knows damn well that any reasonably articulate five-year-old could and would pwn his pathetic ass coming and going.
Actually, did I say "like" one of the toothless smelly guys? I wouldn't be surprised if he is one of them. (It's certainly clear that he pisses himself regularly -- you can practically smell it wafting up from his posts.) He's a blot on the fine tradition of internet trolling: just ignore him or laugh at him.
Actually, did I say "like" one of the toothless smelly guys? I wouldn't be surprised if he is one of them. (It's certainly clear that he pisses himself regularly -- you can practically smell it wafting up from his posts.) He's a blot on the fine tradition of internet trolling: just ignore him or laugh at him.
19
HNATBP - this guy you were talking to is a piece of shit. He attempted to vindicate himself of his transphobia by acting as though you - and your "dishonesty" - were to blame for his lack of interest. I dunno why Dan went so easy on him, merely calling him a "jerk". He's a manipulative shitpile, and for pretending that his emotions were compromised, he is the dishonest one.
20
@16: Who said you were forced to have sex with a trans person to show your support? I don't expect my straight friends to fuck me in solidarity with gay rights. I can't tell if your response is simply misinformed ("Trans people will consider me a bigot if I don't sleep with them") or incredibly narcissistic ("I support your need for sex and companionship but I'm sorry- I can't share my magical natural penis with you"). This is about finding the best way to go about finding a partner that WANTS to be with trans person, not forced coupling by P.C. guilt. I would think the latter option would truly insulting to trans people as it involves pity- which no one needs.
21
@16 You sound like one of those bigoted jackasses who assert that even though they won't fuck black dudes, they are not racist because it just comes down to personal preference. There is a way of simultaneously being gracious and honest about your preferences, yet you are clearly too wooden-headed to phrase your squeamishness eloquently. Reiterating that you won't fuck trans dudes (keep telling yourself that it's their loss) five times does not support your claim that you are "kind and gentle".
22
I'm pretty firmly with @16 on this one. I'm a gay dude who loves my trans brothers and sisters, but we can't pretend that amor vincit omnia so much that a gay dude doesn't want to suck a cock. The LW needs to love himself enough to be fully honest about who he is up front, and the dick who stopped talking to him needs to own up to the fact that he was in lustful cockmonster mode, and pissed off about there not being a cock to monster on. What we have here is a failure to communicate, and on the part of both parties to be completely honest about what they're looking for. LW wants a gay guy who likes guys with pies; that's fine. But that's not most gay dudes. Jerky non-responder needed to be honest that while emotions were fine, most of what he was looking for here was some bone action. Neither party here is guilty of anything more than being a human who is bad about communicating his real wants, needs, and feelings. IMHO.
23
"HNATBP - this guy you were talking to is a piece of shit. He attempted to vindicate himself of his transphobia"
So not wanting to fuck a transperson is transphobia now
lmao
So not wanting to fuck a transperson is transphobia now
lmao
24
Dear LW,
Hi. Cisgendered gay man here. I've gone on dates with two transgendered people whom I met online: one a transman, the other a bisexual transwoman who had only started taking hormones a few weeks before we met, and who at that point was still dressing as a man and (mostly) still using male pronouns. There's two things that I wanted to share with you:
1.) As your letter indicated, the world of online dating can be complicated for trans-men and -women. I just wanted to say (and without speaking for all cis gay men), it can be confusing for us too! I had a lot of questions about my attraction to both of the transgendered people I met up with: in the first case, and having never had to deal with lady-parts, I honestly didn't *know* how I would feel if/when we progressed to sexual intimacy; in the 2nd case, I was definitely attracted to the person... but attracted to the biological sex that she didn't identify with, and was in the process of leaving behind! You can and will find other gay men (cis or trans) who are wildly in love/lust with you. But, for me at least, there was a learning curve.
2.) In both of the examples I referenced, my dates didn't face the question of the "right" moment to reveal their trans status, because they both referenced it, upfront, on their online profile. Now, I don't think there's a right way or a wrong way to come out as trans, but I want to at least suggest that you think about doing so on your profile itself. Will outing yourself as trans cut back on the number of messages you receive? Probably. On the other hand, you won't have to deal with the kind of situation mentioned in your letter, and when you *do* message/meet up with other men, you can do so with the confidence that your trans status won't be a deal breaker!
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
More...
Hi. Cisgendered gay man here. I've gone on dates with two transgendered people whom I met online: one a transman, the other a bisexual transwoman who had only started taking hormones a few weeks before we met, and who at that point was still dressing as a man and (mostly) still using male pronouns. There's two things that I wanted to share with you:
1.) As your letter indicated, the world of online dating can be complicated for trans-men and -women. I just wanted to say (and without speaking for all cis gay men), it can be confusing for us too! I had a lot of questions about my attraction to both of the transgendered people I met up with: in the first case, and having never had to deal with lady-parts, I honestly didn't *know* how I would feel if/when we progressed to sexual intimacy; in the 2nd case, I was definitely attracted to the person... but attracted to the biological sex that she didn't identify with, and was in the process of leaving behind! You can and will find other gay men (cis or trans) who are wildly in love/lust with you. But, for me at least, there was a learning curve.
2.) In both of the examples I referenced, my dates didn't face the question of the "right" moment to reveal their trans status, because they both referenced it, upfront, on their online profile. Now, I don't think there's a right way or a wrong way to come out as trans, but I want to at least suggest that you think about doing so on your profile itself. Will outing yourself as trans cut back on the number of messages you receive? Probably. On the other hand, you won't have to deal with the kind of situation mentioned in your letter, and when you *do* message/meet up with other men, you can do so with the confidence that your trans status won't be a deal breaker!
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
25
@12 " I don't think that would be very useful as a screening tool. I have no issue with trans people, but don't want to date a trans man"
In my mind, mentioning other trans people or trans organizations is largely to screen for violent assholes. If you react with a mean joke when I bring up my trans buddy, then I am never ever going to mention my trans status to you. I'm just going to send you a polite note claiming to have met someone else.
In my mind, mentioning other trans people or trans organizations is largely to screen for violent assholes. If you react with a mean joke when I bring up my trans buddy, then I am never ever going to mention my trans status to you. I'm just going to send you a polite note claiming to have met someone else.
26
@25: Oh okay. If you're just screening for violent assholes, it might not be a bad idea. Maybe that's also what #1 meant. But beyond that level of danger, I don't think it's particularly helpful.
By the way, I didn't mean to imply tha tI thought the man the lw was corresponding with's response was okay. He was a jerk. He should have called the next day and said politely and nicely that he wasn't interested.
By the way, I didn't mean to imply tha tI thought the man the lw was corresponding with's response was okay. He was a jerk. He should have called the next day and said politely and nicely that he wasn't interested.
27
Jean here, post-op trans woman. I've been doing trans education and advocacy work for about 18 years here in Maine. My response to the question of 'when to tell' has always been: your potential partner doesn't need to know you're trans until it looks like things are getting serious and an intimate physical relationship is likely. Both potential partners have a right to know who they're about to have sex with, and you (the trans person) have a right to know for sure how your trans status is going to play out in that relationship. But you don't have a duty to disclose if you're just meeting for coffee or dinner or a walk or going to a movie or exchanging emails because none of those activities are inherently sexual and that knowledge isn't needed to enjoy those activities together. Trans people around the world have the additional problem that more than a few trans-phobic folks are more than happy to show their hatred for us physically as well as verbally. So coming out as trans before learning anything about the other person and having a feeling for whether you're opening yourself up to a physical attack (as well as a verbal one) is not something I recommend. I think LW did it right. He was just unlucky enough to try connecting up with someone for whom trans was a deal-breaker. At least it wasn't a jaw breaker. Chalk it up, LW, and move on. There are other guys out there who won't be bothered by your trans status.
28
@21: I won't sleep with women either (cis or trans). Does that make me sexist? If so, I guess I'll just be sexist. And my not sleeping with trans people of course is not their loss; I'm nobody special.
29
@23 His reaction (ignoring HNATBP based on his genitals, lying about the reason for his loss of interest) was transphobic, not his sexual preferences or refusal to put out. I have sexual and racial preferences, and I'm courteous enough to keep them private. But you're just trolling, so do go on.
30
@28 I don't have a problem with your lack of attraction to trans people. I only fuck with cis guys as well. But reread your comment - the continual reiteration of your dislike for trans dick, the unnecessary hands-wringing. WTF.
Also, you're a gay man - sex with women and sex with trans men might seem comparable to you, but do you think trans men will see that as a reasonable comparison?
Also, you're a gay man - sex with women and sex with trans men might seem comparable to you, but do you think trans men will see that as a reasonable comparison?
31
@24, I agree. It cuts down on how many people you talk to if you just put it in your profile, but it also pre filters people you don't want to talk to for the same reason.
32
People can't do much about what they like or dislike in a sexual or romantic partner. I don't think it is trans-phobic not to want to date a trans-person.
But what is an ass-hole move is first to flirt with someone online and then never to text/ message again when something is disclosed that is a deal-breaker to them. It is not that difficult to write "Sorry, but that is a deal-breaker for me."
Almost everyone who does online-date has had a similar experience at some point.
But what is an ass-hole move is first to flirt with someone online and then never to text/ message again when something is disclosed that is a deal-breaker to them. It is not that difficult to write "Sorry, but that is a deal-breaker for me."
Almost everyone who does online-date has had a similar experience at some point.
33
Hmmm, I don't know.
My gut says LW shouldn't say anything and let the boyfriends discover it on their own, an my gut is almost never wrong.
My gut says LW shouldn't say anything and let the boyfriends discover it on their own, an my gut is almost never wrong.
34
Although there is much wisdom in being out up front, it isn't the only way. I've been out as trans a while and I have known plenty of transfolk who have waited to come out to potential partner. This does risk investing time, and energy in someone who may not be into you. And it can be emotionally painful if they do reject you once you come out. But there are also people who feel differently once they know you and are attracted to you.
I think this probably works better in person than over the internet since the physical pull of attraction isn't there. It also may work a little better with women than men.
But it also screens out people who are into you because they are curious about your transness or they don't think you are a "real man."
I have one gay ftm friend who has almost exclusively dated bio gay guys that he attracted first then came out to. He is however absolutely gorgeous, an incredible dancer, and gives a wicked blow job so i hear.
I think this probably works better in person than over the internet since the physical pull of attraction isn't there. It also may work a little better with women than men.
But it also screens out people who are into you because they are curious about your transness or they don't think you are a "real man."
I have one gay ftm friend who has almost exclusively dated bio gay guys that he attracted first then came out to. He is however absolutely gorgeous, an incredible dancer, and gives a wicked blow job so i hear.
35
A big reason for not disclosing in a profile or leading with the fact might be that the LW might prefer Mr Thrope's sort of man, who is happy to date men either cis or trans, over those for whom trans is a big plus. It could be a corresponding waste of time to get to know someone (presumably a bit better than the LW got to know this jerk) only to find out later than one might like that one had been fetishized.
I can agree to disagree on the general concept of time-wasting, which I suppose can depend on how thoroughly one adheres to the idea of all roads having to lead to Rome, as it were.
I can agree to disagree on the general concept of time-wasting, which I suppose can depend on how thoroughly one adheres to the idea of all roads having to lead to Rome, as it were.
36
The real issue here is that the relationship progressed at warp speed. Emotional attachment to someone you've never met? Talking, texting, every day with essentially a stranger? Even if you are the "right" configuration for that person, they could look nothing like their photos, not be anything like what they represented, or perhaps you just don't click. What's silly about this whole thing is that anyone would waste their time investing in someone they've never met. A few emails to check for obvious crazy, and then you meet, in public, somewhere safe, with a safe call in place and perhaps a friendly bartender who knows what's up. All that talking and texting just makes it harder to let go if and when you aren't compatible. That profile and those words aren't the person, they're who the person wants you to think they are, when they have a screen to hide behind and minutes, hours or days to compose their thoughts.
While I think I would have attempted to be gracious, I'd probably be upset too if I spent time and emotion on someone whom I felt should have disclosed information that is critical. Might not be critical to everyone, but the likelihood is high, and good riddance for the people who don't want you, awesome you, exactly as you are.
While I think I would have attempted to be gracious, I'd probably be upset too if I spent time and emotion on someone whom I felt should have disclosed information that is critical. Might not be critical to everyone, but the likelihood is high, and good riddance for the people who don't want you, awesome you, exactly as you are.
37
#27 has the right idea, I think. LW, the key thing here is that you didn't really do anything wrong. You talked to him, you came out promptly before meeting him (which imho is a good idea just for your physical safety), and then he reacted like a total asshole. It isn't your fault that he, like many cis people, have a background assumption that anyone they are attracted to must also be cis. So don't blame yourself for his hangups and bad behavior. You just had bad luck.
38
When reading @27,34, and 35, I thought about the differences in online dating and real life dating.
In online dating, I look for someone who fits somewhat the picture of my ideal partner. And since I don't fetishize trans people, and I am a straight female, I'd rather contact someone who is not self-identifying as trans man (acting on the fallacy that everyone who does not state being trans must of course be cis).
In real life dating, I feel attracted to a guy before I start dating. And while I don't think that I would be thrilled to find out that the guy was trans, I think it would not kill my attraction.
And I think that is because in online dating it is even easier to feel entitled and objectify than in real life.
(Or maybe it's just me.)
In online dating, I look for someone who fits somewhat the picture of my ideal partner. And since I don't fetishize trans people, and I am a straight female, I'd rather contact someone who is not self-identifying as trans man (acting on the fallacy that everyone who does not state being trans must of course be cis).
In real life dating, I feel attracted to a guy before I start dating. And while I don't think that I would be thrilled to find out that the guy was trans, I think it would not kill my attraction.
And I think that is because in online dating it is even easier to feel entitled and objectify than in real life.
(Or maybe it's just me.)
39
I'm going to take heat for saying this, but the letter writer needs to face the reality that, gender identity politics aside, the majority of people in the dating pool are interested in people that were born with their preferred gender for sexual activity. The number of people where gender does not matter, or do not care if someone is partially or fully transitioned is comparitively low. Realizing that, letterwriter needs to just be upfront about it early on and avoid wasting LW's own time pursuing guys who are not interested.
40
@30: Whether trans men will see the comparison of sex with women who have vaginas and sex with trans men who have vaginas to be reasonable doesn't really matter. What matters is that there are plenty of people who don't want to have sex with people who have vaginas and therefore will reject them, either graciously or ungraciously.
I suppose what I should have said in 16 was just "Sorry, but a vagina would be a dealbreaker for me. However, I wouldn't not return calls or texts, and I'd try not to judge if disclosure came later than I might have preferred."
If what I did say in 16 was too much for a trans man to bear, then, to paraphrase others, what that trans man needs is not a penis but a thicker skin. Fortunately one thing any 19yo, gay or straight, cis or trans, will get as he grows older is just that. Good luck to him.
I suppose what I should have said in 16 was just "Sorry, but a vagina would be a dealbreaker for me. However, I wouldn't not return calls or texts, and I'd try not to judge if disclosure came later than I might have preferred."
If what I did say in 16 was too much for a trans man to bear, then, to paraphrase others, what that trans man needs is not a penis but a thicker skin. Fortunately one thing any 19yo, gay or straight, cis or trans, will get as he grows older is just that. Good luck to him.
41
Dan: you might already know this, but a synonym of 'defraud' is defalcate. I really think you should use this more often.
42
I really agree with @16 and am surprised by the heat he is taking. People are allowed to have preference. A preference for male-only or for or female-only genitals is one of the most basic there is. Don't harass him for this.
44
LW: I'm also a gay trans man, and my strategy is to include this information in my online dating profiles.
You don't have a duty to disclose early. It's not about a potential partner's right to know --- they are the ones making the assumption that you are cis, and they are capable of withdrawing consent at any time. But early disclosure is a good idea, for exactly the reasons Dan outlined. You don't owe it to anyone else, but you do owe it to yourself.
But also, let's not confuse transphobia and sexual taste. Yes, some of the gay men who aren't interested in trans men are motivated by transphobia. But not all of them, or even most of them. We're all entitled to our irrational preferences. I prefer cis men, and it's not because I'm transphobic; I just really like cis cock. That having been said, we have a responsibility to communicate our preferences without being jerks.
The guy you flirted isn't into trans guys. By talking about how brave he thinks you are and referring to trans friends, he's trying to defend himself against accusations of transphobia. By ignoring you, he's trying to get out of having to communicate that he has an irrational sexual preference that is a dealbreaker for him. By accusing you of having misled him, he's trying to take the embarrassment he feels and put it on you. It's fine that he isn't into trans men, but he's being a complete jerk about it.
You will find an overwhelming number of jerks on the dating world; jerks who are into trans men and jerks who aren't. The best thing to do is to shrug and say "ah, I see, that one's a jerk" and move on. It's in your best interest to learn how to identify jerks quickly.
You'll also find a lot of reasonable people who just aren't into trans men. I'm afraid to say we're at a disadvantage, numbers-wise, where that is concerned. And many of those reasonable people are embarrassed to have this preference, and/or are sensitive to the fact that it's hard for us to hear someone say that they don't want to sleep with us because of something that has already made our lives quite difficult, and they will act gracelessly under that pressure.
Disclosing on online profiles weeds out the potential dates who aren't into what I've got, and saves me from having to hear it, or having to deal with someone else's awkwardness. It means that when I hear from people who are interested, I'm not bitter and jaded from having to sort the others out myself. Your mileage may vary, of course.
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You don't have a duty to disclose early. It's not about a potential partner's right to know --- they are the ones making the assumption that you are cis, and they are capable of withdrawing consent at any time. But early disclosure is a good idea, for exactly the reasons Dan outlined. You don't owe it to anyone else, but you do owe it to yourself.
But also, let's not confuse transphobia and sexual taste. Yes, some of the gay men who aren't interested in trans men are motivated by transphobia. But not all of them, or even most of them. We're all entitled to our irrational preferences. I prefer cis men, and it's not because I'm transphobic; I just really like cis cock. That having been said, we have a responsibility to communicate our preferences without being jerks.
The guy you flirted isn't into trans guys. By talking about how brave he thinks you are and referring to trans friends, he's trying to defend himself against accusations of transphobia. By ignoring you, he's trying to get out of having to communicate that he has an irrational sexual preference that is a dealbreaker for him. By accusing you of having misled him, he's trying to take the embarrassment he feels and put it on you. It's fine that he isn't into trans men, but he's being a complete jerk about it.
You will find an overwhelming number of jerks on the dating world; jerks who are into trans men and jerks who aren't. The best thing to do is to shrug and say "ah, I see, that one's a jerk" and move on. It's in your best interest to learn how to identify jerks quickly.
You'll also find a lot of reasonable people who just aren't into trans men. I'm afraid to say we're at a disadvantage, numbers-wise, where that is concerned. And many of those reasonable people are embarrassed to have this preference, and/or are sensitive to the fact that it's hard for us to hear someone say that they don't want to sleep with us because of something that has already made our lives quite difficult, and they will act gracelessly under that pressure.
Disclosing on online profiles weeds out the potential dates who aren't into what I've got, and saves me from having to hear it, or having to deal with someone else's awkwardness. It means that when I hear from people who are interested, I'm not bitter and jaded from having to sort the others out myself. Your mileage may vary, of course.
45
If you're not reading the unregistered comments, you should read @44, because it's quite useful. If HNATBP is reading these comments, he should definitely read #44.
46
@20, 21 Plenty of Social Justice Sallys think it's transphobic or bigoted to refuse to have sex with someone based on their gender identity or orientation. They're the same kind of retards who glitter bombed Dan, so it's not like they don't exist.
47
This is a comment that comes from ignorance -- it's no one's job to educate me, so if this bugs you, go ahead and skip to the next post.
Do bi and trans people often date? A lot of the push-back we see in this thread is from gay men saying "a vagina is a dealbreaker for me." But a bi guy would not be freaked out by a vagina. So couldn't gay trans men reach out to bi guys? Maybe not enough bi guys are out as bi, because both het girls and gay guys discriminate against openly bi guys.
If so, maybe there's an opportunity for a dating site for bi and trans people? I do think migrationist @38 is right that people are very picky when looking online and prioritize things they associate with their ideal type, rather than realizing that love sometimes comes in surprising packages. So maybe the opportunity is not for an online dating site but for a club or bar that gets known as a bi-friendly, trans-friendly space.
Do bi and trans people often date? A lot of the push-back we see in this thread is from gay men saying "a vagina is a dealbreaker for me." But a bi guy would not be freaked out by a vagina. So couldn't gay trans men reach out to bi guys? Maybe not enough bi guys are out as bi, because both het girls and gay guys discriminate against openly bi guys.
If so, maybe there's an opportunity for a dating site for bi and trans people? I do think migrationist @38 is right that people are very picky when looking online and prioritize things they associate with their ideal type, rather than realizing that love sometimes comes in surprising packages. So maybe the opportunity is not for an online dating site but for a club or bar that gets known as a bi-friendly, trans-friendly space.
50
The only two points have already been covered.
1) put it on your online profile
2) Having an open mind isn't what makes your dick hard.
1) put it on your online profile
2) Having an open mind isn't what makes your dick hard.
51
Personally: I'm not trans. I'm not fat. I'm not disabled. I'm not male. I'm not black.
But I won't go out with anyone who says they wouldn't, absolutely wouldn't, consider dating/sleeping with someone on the basis of one of these attributes.
Of course people have preferences, strong ones. I do too. But for me, the only reasonable answer is "Well, it's not my general thing, but if the right person came along, you never know."
Someone who doesn't have the imagination to realze that people are strange and attraction is mysterious and sometimes you'll find yourself in a situation you never envisioned - isn't worth my time, imho.
But I won't go out with anyone who says they wouldn't, absolutely wouldn't, consider dating/sleeping with someone on the basis of one of these attributes.
Of course people have preferences, strong ones. I do too. But for me, the only reasonable answer is "Well, it's not my general thing, but if the right person came along, you never know."
Someone who doesn't have the imagination to realze that people are strange and attraction is mysterious and sometimes you'll find yourself in a situation you never envisioned - isn't worth my time, imho.
52
Ms Erica - Okay, yes, a trans man would be less likely to run into a general declaration of the ickiness of woman parts from a bi man than from a gay man, but I don't know how great any increased demand will be from either side. I'd think of it more that there are particular subsets of members of both groups for whom the status of such a partner would be a plus, but it would not seem fair to hold others in those groups to higher expectations of openness to dating. I think we more or less agree, but your post could be interpreted as a proposed Magical Solution.
53
@46: Yeah, but they're MORONS. And no one had said or even implied that not being attracted to trans people equaled bigotry. I'm a black man and I know the difference between stating a preference ("I'm not really attracted to black people") and stating a prejudice ("I think black people are ugly") firsthand- those are actual quotes. Without prompting, 16 changed the issue from dating etiquette to whether people had a right to have gender/physical preferences. The LW wasn't demanding sex and companionship (which would make the LW an object of scorn/pity), he was asking for the best way to find it.
54
@52, but, but...magic!
Yes, you're right. I was hoping to get around the problem that most people who actively look for trans-partners are fetishists, and most trans-people don't like being fetishized (I think).
Maybe a better work-around is for society to recognize that people fetishize. People can try to be more relaxed about other people fetishizing them (like women with big boobs have to understand that a lot of their suitors dig their big boobs); meanwhile the fetishists can try to be more discreet, and emphasize that the fetishized aspect is only one of their lover's many delightful qualities.
Yes, you're right. I was hoping to get around the problem that most people who actively look for trans-partners are fetishists, and most trans-people don't like being fetishized (I think).
Maybe a better work-around is for society to recognize that people fetishize. People can try to be more relaxed about other people fetishizing them (like women with big boobs have to understand that a lot of their suitors dig their big boobs); meanwhile the fetishists can try to be more discreet, and emphasize that the fetishized aspect is only one of their lover's many delightful qualities.
55
I consider myself a Kinsey 6, yet I was married to my wife for 10 years and had much fun in the sack. As a gay man, I have been attracted to transmen, but (to my great misfortune) have never had the opportunity to play with said man. But I'm also into kink and many things that my gay bros are not. Some transmen are smokin' hot, that's all.
LW- stay in the dating game, it will get better. You're just very young and inexperienced- that will change with every person you meet. You'll find your man, but don't be afraid to date lots of frogs in the meantime to get a thicker skin, and to discover what you need in a partner.
Good luck!
LW- stay in the dating game, it will get better. You're just very young and inexperienced- that will change with every person you meet. You'll find your man, but don't be afraid to date lots of frogs in the meantime to get a thicker skin, and to discover what you need in a partner.
Good luck!
56
As a transman, the issue with disclosing on your profile is that you attract the attention of people who specifically want to date transmen. Some transmen want that, which is fine, but I don't. I'd hate to meet someone, get to know them, get to like them, only to get into bed with them and discover my genitals are part of what attracted them to me. I know Buck Angel would be disappointed in me for saying this, but I don't own my genitals and I don't want to. I don't want to be a fetish, don't want to be any different to any cis-guy out there. I'm gay, but I'd date another transman because what's important to me is that a person's genitals - whatever form they take - are attached to a guy I'm into. And if that means I don't get to suck dick anymore, then so be it.
(that isn't to say it's wrong to not want to date a transman - that's a preference and if you can't live without sucking dick, I respect that. I'm just trying to offer an alternative viewpoint as a lot of people are suggesting trans dating sites, or dating bi guys because they're attracted to vaginas. Some of us don't want our genitals to be attractive to our partners - just tolerable.)
(that isn't to say it's wrong to not want to date a transman - that's a preference and if you can't live without sucking dick, I respect that. I'm just trying to offer an alternative viewpoint as a lot of people are suggesting trans dating sites, or dating bi guys because they're attracted to vaginas. Some of us don't want our genitals to be attractive to our partners - just tolerable.)
57
@56 madswan: I hear you. But consider someone like me: I don't play with anyone I don't like as a person. But I *am* attracted to transguys and their genitals. If we hit it off and got together, I would more than tolerate your junk - I'd appreciate the hell out of it. Would you kick me out of bed for having initially approached you in the hopes that your attractive genitals would turn out to be attached to a lovely guy?
59
@56
so, basically it's your intention to deceive someone in the hopes that he will, in turn, help you deceive yourself.
so, basically it's your intention to deceive someone in the hopes that he will, in turn, help you deceive yourself.
60
@56 "only to get into bed with them and discover my genitals are part of what attracted them to me."
"I don't want to be a fetish, don't want to be any different to any cis-guy out there."
I hate to break it to you, but cis-guys fetishize about their partner's genitals all the time so you are no different if they fetishize about your genitals. It sounds like you hold the view that if a person is into someone's genitals (and we're talking about sexual relationships here) then they cannot also be into the person whose genitals are attached to. With that viewpoint you will miss out on meeting some great people (such as maybe @57)
"Some of us don't want our genitals to be attractive to our partners - just tolerable."
If someone is just tolerating your genitals, it's a good to assume that they will be lousy sex partners as they will not have that desire to really explore your body and what gets you off. It could be that what you want is not a sexual relationship and that's perfectly fine, but you have to be up front with potential partners.
"I don't want to be a fetish, don't want to be any different to any cis-guy out there."
I hate to break it to you, but cis-guys fetishize about their partner's genitals all the time so you are no different if they fetishize about your genitals. It sounds like you hold the view that if a person is into someone's genitals (and we're talking about sexual relationships here) then they cannot also be into the person whose genitals are attached to. With that viewpoint you will miss out on meeting some great people (such as maybe @57)
"Some of us don't want our genitals to be attractive to our partners - just tolerable."
If someone is just tolerating your genitals, it's a good to assume that they will be lousy sex partners as they will not have that desire to really explore your body and what gets you off. It could be that what you want is not a sexual relationship and that's perfectly fine, but you have to be up front with potential partners.
61
"only to get into bed with them and discover my genitals are part of what attracted them to me."
btw, fyi, only a chick would say something like that.
btw, fyi, only a chick would say something like that.
62
@1: "Stay away from that guy and hope he stays away from you."
Yeah, hurtful it may be, but at least you've got your answer, and you're much better off for knowing.
Yeah, hurtful it may be, but at least you've got your answer, and you're much better off for knowing.
63
EricaP @47 As a bi guy, if someone I was interested in disclosed trans status it would be a non-issue. Male v. female "plumbing" seems to be the biggest deal breaker for most. Obviously I enjoy both. In fact there might even be something of a novelty interest. Not a fetish but a, "well there's a combination I've never played with."
As far as dating site or bar: down here in Austin we've got a nice little divey queer bar [i.e. not a Gay Club] that hosts the whole rainbow. So in theory the trans and bi folk could hook up, but I haven't seen it much. In fact there is more of a trans presence than an open bi population at 'Bout Time. If only my co-orientationists had more chutzpah. Someday.
As far as dating site or bar: down here in Austin we've got a nice little divey queer bar [i.e. not a Gay Club] that hosts the whole rainbow. So in theory the trans and bi folk could hook up, but I haven't seen it much. In fact there is more of a trans presence than an open bi population at 'Bout Time. If only my co-orientationists had more chutzpah. Someday.
65
Ms Erica - You remind me of the scene from My So-Called Life in which Camille tells Patty about the infamous Poll in which Sharon was voted as having the best global endowments and they work out between them that Patty never heard about the Poll because Angela wasn't on it.
66
Fuck Dan Savage. He has said so many transphobic things which, if anything, have contributed to the cis gay male community being uncomfortable with dating trans guys.
67
@66: If you think Dan Savage is to blame for cis gay men not wanting to date trans guys, you're not thinking clearly.
68
@65, I'm imagining you dumbing down your allusions in hopes that I will finally be able to get one and play along. Alas, I still don't get the reference. I mean my google skills are such that I can figure out the allusion here, as with Austen, but does it count if I didn't have an authentic moment of recognition at the aptness of your reference? Apologies for being so unsatisfactory an interlocutor...
69
@59 I never said anything about deceiving people.
@57 I'd be happy with that, as long as we didn't meet on a trans/fetish/etc dating website, because if we did, I would have no way of knowing you weren't after a trans guy in particular. We're talking sexual relationships here, and in that regard, I don't want anyone appreciating the hell out of my junk because they're not going to be appreciating it for who it's attached to.
@60 Last time I checked, I still had an asshole to be played with and a mouth to play with. I can have fulfilling sexual relationships without anyone going anywhere near my junk - and I prefer it that way because, as I said, I don't own my junk and I don't want to. If we're talking relationships that go further than sex, then sure, I have a more open mind. I'm happy for someone to appreciate my junk more than I do. But if it's just sexual? No thank you.
@57 I'd be happy with that, as long as we didn't meet on a trans/fetish/etc dating website, because if we did, I would have no way of knowing you weren't after a trans guy in particular. We're talking sexual relationships here, and in that regard, I don't want anyone appreciating the hell out of my junk because they're not going to be appreciating it for who it's attached to.
@60 Last time I checked, I still had an asshole to be played with and a mouth to play with. I can have fulfilling sexual relationships without anyone going anywhere near my junk - and I prefer it that way because, as I said, I don't own my junk and I don't want to. If we're talking relationships that go further than sex, then sure, I have a more open mind. I'm happy for someone to appreciate my junk more than I do. But if it's just sexual? No thank you.
70
@64: "oh, to be a 'novelty interest' for but a night."
You can be. For the rest of your life? That'd get old fucking fast.
You can be. For the rest of your life? That'd get old fucking fast.
71
Ms Erica - Not at all; you mentioned negotiating fetishization of large breasts, and that immediately put that episode into mind (for the record, Episode 5, "The Zit"). The amply-busted Sharon (Camille's daughter) starts covering up and nearly breaks up with her dim boyfriend Kyle. Rayanne (who replaced Sharon as Angela's BFF) is thrilled to win Most Slut Potential in the Poll until Angela (Patty's daughter), who minds less about the Poll than about Patty pressuring her into doing the Mother-Daughter Fashion Show with Camille and Sharon again, starts reacting negatively to Rayanne's title, causing Rayanne to suggest that Angela doesn't want to be labeled a Slut-By-Association.
Angela and Sharon actually begin to reconcile when they meet in the bathroom and each owns up to having wished to have the other's measurements, then piece together the old Girl Scout saying about God's Gift. In the end, Sharon appears in the MDFS after all, Patty admits that she needed Angela there with her too much and accepts Angela's younger sister Danielle as a replacement, and the episode ends with Angela's inner monologue reflecting about how people are so complicated and different that they'e actually, "...beautiful. ...Possibly even me."
As you may imagine, my life is not overfull of allusions to large chests. I even have a fairly low threshold for what constitutes "overly-worked-out" for men.
Also, it occurred to me, going back to your original theme, that, while some trans people might like the idea of a bi partner because the risk of the "ick factor" would be reduced, others could prefer monosexual partners if they would feel more assured thereby of being valued entirely/only for the gender they are. Not a reason against your idea, but it seemed fair to mention just to be thorough.
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Angela and Sharon actually begin to reconcile when they meet in the bathroom and each owns up to having wished to have the other's measurements, then piece together the old Girl Scout saying about God's Gift. In the end, Sharon appears in the MDFS after all, Patty admits that she needed Angela there with her too much and accepts Angela's younger sister Danielle as a replacement, and the episode ends with Angela's inner monologue reflecting about how people are so complicated and different that they'e actually, "...beautiful. ...Possibly even me."
As you may imagine, my life is not overfull of allusions to large chests. I even have a fairly low threshold for what constitutes "overly-worked-out" for men.
Also, it occurred to me, going back to your original theme, that, while some trans people might like the idea of a bi partner because the risk of the "ick factor" would be reduced, others could prefer monosexual partners if they would feel more assured thereby of being valued entirely/only for the gender they are. Not a reason against your idea, but it seemed fair to mention just to be thorough.
72
I see the points of the unregistered Messrs Swan and Bustee; it's about lines to be drawn, and drawing a line at point A is as valid as at point B, C, D or E. No time to elaborate now, alas.
73
"@59 I never said anything about deceiving people."
bullshit.
When you're on a dating site, it's a safe assumption that when you're talking to someone that presents themselves as a certain gender, that their genitals correspond.
You've created an elaborate fantasy-structure in your head about how "it doesn't matter".
By not revealing this information, you are engaging in deceit.
bullshit.
When you're on a dating site, it's a safe assumption that when you're talking to someone that presents themselves as a certain gender, that their genitals correspond.
You've created an elaborate fantasy-structure in your head about how "it doesn't matter".
By not revealing this information, you are engaging in deceit.
75
@71, yes, the discussion here has been enlightening. My proposals above sound naive, after reading that some, like madswan, would prefer to date someone he knew was not into his junk, at least until they developed a strong emotional connection.
I was glad to discover @69 that his statement @56 "Some of us don't want our genitals to be attractive to our partners" wasn't as absolute as it sounded.
I was glad to discover @69 that his statement @56 "Some of us don't want our genitals to be attractive to our partners" wasn't as absolute as it sounded.
76
I'm a gay transman who transitioned at 21 and is now 36. Reflections:
1. I've had sex with a lot of gay men. One time each. There are plenty of open-minded gay men who will fuck transmen to find out if they are into it or not. Most will discover it isn't something that they want to do regularly. If you are comfortable with this situation, you will get a lot of mileage out of gay men in their 20s.
2. I don't disclose on most of my online profiles because I don't see the point of disclosing until I've met someone and determined whether I'm interested in fucking them. I disclose fairly quickly if I am interested in someone - generally never later than the third date because if we aren't getting sexual in some way by then, it isn't going to happen (your mileage may vary).
3. Bi men are not necessarily the solution. In my experience, bisexuals are typically attracted to men who are men and women who are women. Those that are also open to dating and/or attracted to transpeople belong in another category (pansexual, etc.) because I think that one of the keys to good chemistry with a transperson is being comfortable with the mixture of gender characteristics that most of us live with most of our life (good treatment is expensive and not always possible).
4. The only people who contact me via my profile on Buck Angel's site are looking for transwomen.
5. My modest success in dating is probably very much informed by the fact that most of the places I have lived don't have large sexual minority populations. Moving to SF, NYC or another queer mecca is probably going to improve your chances of meeting someone who will want to fuck you more than once.
6. Gay men are hyper-visual. Clean yourself up, get fit, and love yourself. They may still not fuck you more than once, but they will genuinely regret it.
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1. I've had sex with a lot of gay men. One time each. There are plenty of open-minded gay men who will fuck transmen to find out if they are into it or not. Most will discover it isn't something that they want to do regularly. If you are comfortable with this situation, you will get a lot of mileage out of gay men in their 20s.
2. I don't disclose on most of my online profiles because I don't see the point of disclosing until I've met someone and determined whether I'm interested in fucking them. I disclose fairly quickly if I am interested in someone - generally never later than the third date because if we aren't getting sexual in some way by then, it isn't going to happen (your mileage may vary).
3. Bi men are not necessarily the solution. In my experience, bisexuals are typically attracted to men who are men and women who are women. Those that are also open to dating and/or attracted to transpeople belong in another category (pansexual, etc.) because I think that one of the keys to good chemistry with a transperson is being comfortable with the mixture of gender characteristics that most of us live with most of our life (good treatment is expensive and not always possible).
4. The only people who contact me via my profile on Buck Angel's site are looking for transwomen.
5. My modest success in dating is probably very much informed by the fact that most of the places I have lived don't have large sexual minority populations. Moving to SF, NYC or another queer mecca is probably going to improve your chances of meeting someone who will want to fuck you more than once.
6. Gay men are hyper-visual. Clean yourself up, get fit, and love yourself. They may still not fuck you more than once, but they will genuinely regret it.
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