Slog Comments
Dallas Mayor Calls on Men to Stop Domestic Violence in His City
4
Haha yeah it is a human problem when 85% of the incidents are male on female. Fuck off with your concern canard.
5
Hopefully this turns out better than the time the mayor of Galveston asked the women to make better sandwiches in his city.
8
Yay! This type of step may matter.
Not the "don't warn us when there is a threat around" thing you were calling for earlier.
But, actual leadership, discussion and, hopefully, a change in culture.
Not the "don't warn us when there is a threat around" thing you were calling for earlier.
But, actual leadership, discussion and, hopefully, a change in culture.
9
@7 Violence is a pretty big all-encompassing term, and there is no all-encompassing solution to violence.
The smart way to approach it is to find the biggest issue and work your way down. Victim blaming and rape culture are pretty much at the top.
No one praising this are saying it because "I'm glad they're addressing the only important issue. Those other victims don't matter."
To assume such makes you look like an ass.
The smart way to approach it is to find the biggest issue and work your way down. Victim blaming and rape culture are pretty much at the top.
No one praising this are saying it because "I'm glad they're addressing the only important issue. Those other victims don't matter."
To assume such makes you look like an ass.
10
Google White Ribbon Campaign. Awesome organization of men devoted to stopping men's violence, focused primarily on the high school and college level. Great people.
11
As long as this steers clear of Promise Keeper-esque misogyny-cloaked-in-"religious tradition," I'm all for it.
12
@9 - Nope, all public efforts and articles about said efforts should completely solve all the world's problems in one stroke or they are completely useless. Does this post even begin to address the problem of food safety in underdeveloped parts of the country?
13
When you doorbell for a candidate or a cause, you usually have a walk list of people most likely to be receptive to your message. It's not a matter of ignoring people, it's a matter of marshaling resourcesto maximum effect. The overwhelming majority of domestic violence and sexual assault instances are perpetrated by men against women. We must say the sky is blue before we say it is other things. That's not to ignore the suffering or the challenges of victims of the other permutations of domestic violence, but at this moment in time in this culture it's heterosexual men that should be the most aggressively targeted with this message.
14
There is a large body of social science research indicating that women use and initiate violence in relationships as often, or even more often, than men. http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.h…
This is an area where what "everyone knows" is wrong.
This is an area where what "everyone knows" is wrong.
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@14, The existence of some studies where women are found to be DV aggressors in greater or equal proportion to men does not refute what "everyone knows" about the subject. That link is not a systematic review or meta-analysis of DV, it is a cherry-picked list of studies with specific "counter-intuitive" findings. Science does not work like that.
16
"Wait your turn, abused men. We'll get to you after we take care of all the people we actually give a shit about."
17
For the Mayor of a major Texas city, to hold this rally, is a sizeable step:redefining masculinity as gentlemanly, instead of pure macho.
20
@15: prove it. Argument by naked assertion is not persuasive.
Note, I did not say that it has been definitely proved that women abuse men more than men abuse women. Just that there is a lot of research pointing to a whole lot more woman-on-man violence than most people assume exists. Hence, what most people think they know is wrong. The issue is a lot more cloudy than that.
That's not even counting violence via the legal system. I work in public defense, and I have seen lots of people, mostly men but some women as well, locked up by false domestic violence accusations.
On one occasion, the female "victim" of a client of mine, who had had him locked up repeatedly, wanted to convince me that her recantation was real. She left me the most amazing voicemail, an Oscar-worthy performance of sobbing and begging for help, before snapping back to a normal, conversational voice--she could turn it on and off as needed.
On another occasion, I was reviewing a case with a new client when I realized the name of the "victim" looked familiar. When I asked my client, a woman this time, about it, she said matter-of-factly, "Oh yeah, she's locking everyone up."
These, along with more than one case where a girlfriend had her man locked up because she found out he was cheating.
Just like women (anyone, really) should leave the first time their partner hits them, men should leave the first time their partner calls the cops on them.
Note, I did not say that it has been definitely proved that women abuse men more than men abuse women. Just that there is a lot of research pointing to a whole lot more woman-on-man violence than most people assume exists. Hence, what most people think they know is wrong. The issue is a lot more cloudy than that.
That's not even counting violence via the legal system. I work in public defense, and I have seen lots of people, mostly men but some women as well, locked up by false domestic violence accusations.
On one occasion, the female "victim" of a client of mine, who had had him locked up repeatedly, wanted to convince me that her recantation was real. She left me the most amazing voicemail, an Oscar-worthy performance of sobbing and begging for help, before snapping back to a normal, conversational voice--she could turn it on and off as needed.
On another occasion, I was reviewing a case with a new client when I realized the name of the "victim" looked familiar. When I asked my client, a woman this time, about it, she said matter-of-factly, "Oh yeah, she's locking everyone up."
These, along with more than one case where a girlfriend had her man locked up because she found out he was cheating.
Just like women (anyone, really) should leave the first time their partner hits them, men should leave the first time their partner calls the cops on them.
21
@18 It's nice that you're continuing your streak of dependency on other people to provide you with thoughts, ideas and solutions. I like consistency.
22
@21: A good idea is a good idea Misanthrope. Too bad you couldn't have admitted it sooner, but never the less I'm glad you're on board. :)
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@22 I never said I wasn't on board. I said that you have no ideas of your own. And you still don't. :-D
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@20, Prove what? You're the one making the naked assertion that "women use and initiate violence in relationships as often, or even more often, than men," which may or may not be true, but the link you posted proves nothing except that such studies exist and someone with an agenda (and I'm guessing a giant chip on his shoulder) took the time to compile their bibliographies. You're the one who insists that what "everyone knows is wrong," which places the burden of proof squarely on your shoulders, yet you have failed to do so with the evidence you presented.
One could do the same thing with any contentious topic -- global warming deniers do this all the time -- because that's how research works. Sometimes studies find unconventional results. Sometimes studies in the same content area have results that conflict with each other. Sometimes studies have shitty methodology but they get published anyway. Simply pointing to the existence of a few hundred studies with a specific outcome does not prove anything. It takes decades of research and systematic analyses of the body of work before scientists make firm assertions about what is or is not true. What you've presented as evidence is not a systematic analysis, it is a list of studies that have results someone deliberately sought out.
One could do the same thing with any contentious topic -- global warming deniers do this all the time -- because that's how research works. Sometimes studies find unconventional results. Sometimes studies in the same content area have results that conflict with each other. Sometimes studies have shitty methodology but they get published anyway. Simply pointing to the existence of a few hundred studies with a specific outcome does not prove anything. It takes decades of research and systematic analyses of the body of work before scientists make firm assertions about what is or is not true. What you've presented as evidence is not a systematic analysis, it is a list of studies that have results someone deliberately sought out.
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@24: No. I said "There is a large body of research indicating that...." That is 1) not a naked assertion, in that I cited a link that references a ton of research (286 studies and analyses, total sample size 371,600) and, more importantly, 2) is not a declaration by me about women perpetrators of domestic violence. It is a declaration by me about what a lot of research says about women perpetrators of domestic violence. Don't blame me, blame the research.
I *do* maintain that what everyone thinks they know about this issue is wrong. What everyone "knows" is that the issue is cut and dried, with men proven to be the vast majority of perpetrators. That is not true. As I said, the issue is murky.
I admit, I am not a social scientist. My understanding, though, is that these results have been quite robust and consistent over the years. The CDC, hardly some fringe researcher with an axe to grind, found in their National Intimate and Sexual Violence Survey for 2010, that an estimated 5,365,000 men experienced physical violence at the hands of intimate partners the previous year, as compared to 4,741,000 women. See tables 4.1 and 4.2 in the full report, page 38. For some reason, these numbers didn't make it into the executive summary or fact sheet....
I *do* maintain that what everyone thinks they know about this issue is wrong. What everyone "knows" is that the issue is cut and dried, with men proven to be the vast majority of perpetrators. That is not true. As I said, the issue is murky.
I admit, I am not a social scientist. My understanding, though, is that these results have been quite robust and consistent over the years. The CDC, hardly some fringe researcher with an axe to grind, found in their National Intimate and Sexual Violence Survey for 2010, that an estimated 5,365,000 men experienced physical violence at the hands of intimate partners the previous year, as compared to 4,741,000 women. See tables 4.1 and 4.2 in the full report, page 38. For some reason, these numbers didn't make it into the executive summary or fact sheet....
26
@25, The link you cited above does not constitute scientific evidence; it is a list of studies cultivated specifically because of the results they yielded. It's biased by design and it proves nothing except that men are sometimes the victims of domestic violence and sometimes studies show this happens more often than the inverse.
Anyway, I googled this CDC report you mentioned but didn't link to and it does not say what you claim.
Page 38, tables 4.1 and 4.2 Women: 42M / lifetime (36%), 7M / last year (6%). Men: 32M / lifetime (29%), 6M / last year (5%).
Note these are only categorically reported [yes/no] so the severity of the violence is not made clear in this report, or at least in these tables. It also makes no distinction between instigated violence and acts of self-defense. Again, this may be covered somewhere else in the report since these are important distinctions.
So yes, men are victims of domestic violence, but less often than women. Therefore, everyone is wrong or something.
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pd…
Anyway, I googled this CDC report you mentioned but didn't link to and it does not say what you claim.
Page 38, tables 4.1 and 4.2 Women: 42M / lifetime (36%), 7M / last year (6%). Men: 32M / lifetime (29%), 6M / last year (5%).
Note these are only categorically reported [yes/no] so the severity of the violence is not made clear in this report, or at least in these tables. It also makes no distinction between instigated violence and acts of self-defense. Again, this may be covered somewhere else in the report since these are important distinctions.
So yes, men are victims of domestic violence, but less often than women. Therefore, everyone is wrong or something.
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pd…
27
@26: yes, it says precisely what I said it says, right there in black and white. You are citing different numbers, either lifetime, where I cited previous year, or figures including rape and stalking, where I cited just the numbers for physical violence.
You can argue I should have cited the numbers for all offenses combined (though, note, they apparently did not collect data on male victims of rape). I felt it was appropriate given the subject of the Dallas police chief statement, which focused on domestic violence. But the numbers I cited are correct.
But hey, "everyone is wrong" is pretty close to my position. I'll call that a win.
You can argue I should have cited the numbers for all offenses combined (though, note, they apparently did not collect data on male victims of rape). I felt it was appropriate given the subject of the Dallas police chief statement, which focused on domestic violence. But the numbers I cited are correct.
But hey, "everyone is wrong" is pretty close to my position. I'll call that a win.
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@27, They're correct if you don't count rape by one's partner as domestic violence and if you ignore lifetime data in favor of one 12-month period. Congratulations on your big win.
29
@26 did you even go down a few tables or are you just cherry picking for facts? See Table 4.7/4.8
Also, Blip, even in light of your stars, wouldn't you say that 29% is still a huge number? 36% really isn't that far off. And 5% and 6% are pretty fucking close. Would you say it's a problem that needs to be addressed on both sides of the table?
Also, Blip, even in light of your stars, wouldn't you say that 29% is still a huge number? 36% really isn't that far off. And 5% and 6% are pretty fucking close. Would you say it's a problem that needs to be addressed on both sides of the table?
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