Slog Comments
N. Carolina Student Censured for "Intimidating" Her Rapist
2
Woman. North Carolina. ...What was the question?
I don't know what the fuck is wrong with Dixie, but even being a male of the species, I'm grateful I don't live there.
I don't know what the fuck is wrong with Dixie, but even being a male of the species, I'm grateful I don't live there.
3
Has this guy been tried and convicted? If not, calling the guy a rapist - even if you're not using his name - is pretty irresponsible. She should take this to the police, if she hasn't already.
4
I should clarify I'm referring to the 'journalists' who 'wrote' the articles. She can accuse the guy all she wants, but she should do it officially.
5
The Campus Rape Myth by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Winter 2008
It’s a lonely job, working the phones at a college rape crisis center. Day after day, you wait for the casualties to show up from the alleged campus rape epidemic—but no one calls. Could this mean that the crisis is overblown? No: it means, according to the campus sexual-assault industry, that the abuse of coeds is worse than anyone had ever imagined. It means that consultants and counselors need more funding to persuade student rape victims to break the silence of their suffering.
The campus rape movement highlights the current condition of radical feminism, from its self-indulgent bathos to its embrace of ever more vulnerable female victimhood. But the movement is an even more important barometer of academia itself. In a delicious historical irony, the baby boomers who dismantled the university’s intellectual architecture in favor of unbridled sex and protest have now bureaucratized both. While women’s studies professors bang pots and blow whistles at antirape rallies, in the dorm next door, freshman counselors and deans pass out tips for better orgasms and the use of sex toys. The academic bureaucracy is roomy enough to sponsor both the dour antimale feminism of the college rape movement and the promiscuous hookup culture of student life. The only thing that doesn’t fit into the university’s new commitments is serious scholarly purpose.
The campus rape industry’s central tenet is that one-quarter of all college girls will be raped or be the targets of attempted rape by the end of their college years (completed rapes outnumbering attempted rapes by a ratio of about three to two). The girls’ assailants are not terrifying strangers grabbing them in dark alleys but the guys sitting next to them in class or at the cafeteria.
This claim, first published in Ms. magazine in 1987, took the universities by storm. By the early 1990s, campus rape centers and 24-hour hotlines were opening across the country, aided by tens of millions of dollars of federal funding. Victimhood rituals sprang up: first the Take Back the Night rallies, in which alleged rape victims reveal their stories to gathered crowds of candle-holding supporters; then the Clothesline Project, in which T-shirts made by self-proclaimed rape survivors are strung on campus, while recorded sounds of gongs and drums mark minute-by-minute casualties of the “rape culture.” A special rhetoric emerged: victims’ family and friends were “co-survivors”; “survivors” existed in a larger “community of survivors.”
An army of salesmen took to the road, selling advice to administrators on how to structure sexual-assault procedures, and lecturing freshmen on the “undetected rapists” in their midst. Rape bureaucrats exchanged notes at such gatherings as the Inter Ivy Sexual Assault Conferences and the New England College Sexual Assault Network. Organizations like One in Four and Men Can Stop Rape tried to persuade college boys to redefine their masculinity away from the “rape culture.” The college rape infrastructure shows no signs of a slowdown. In 2006, for example, Yale created a new Sexual Harassment and Assault Resources and Education Center, despite numerous resources for rape victims already on campus.
If the one-in-four statistic is correct—it is sometimes modified to “one-in-five to one-in-four”—campus rape represents a crime wave of unprecedented proportions. No crime, much less one as serious as rape, has a victimization rate remotely approaching 20 or 25 percent, even over many years. The 2006 violent crime rate in Detroit, one of the most violent cities in America, was 2,400 murders, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults per 100,000 inhabitants—a rate of 2.4 percent. The one-in-four statistic would mean that every year, millions of young women graduate who have suffered the most terrifying assault, short of murder, that a woman can experience. Such a crime wave would require nothing less than a state of emergency—Take Back the Night rallies and 24-hour hotlines would hardly be adequate to counter this tsunami of sexual violence. Admissions policies letting in tens of thousands of vicious criminals would require a complete revision, perhaps banning boys entirely. The nation’s nearly 10 million female undergrads would need to take the most stringent safety precautions. Certainly, they would have to alter their sexual behavior radically to avoid falling prey to the rape epidemic.
None of this crisis response occurs, of course—because the crisis doesn’t exist. During the 1980s, feminist researchers committed to the rape-culture theory had discovered that asking women directly if they had been raped yielded disappointing results—very few women said that they had been. So Ms. commissioned University of Arizona public health professor Mary Koss to develop a different way of measuring the prevalence of rape. Rather than asking female students about rape per se, Koss asked them if they had experienced actions that she then classified as rape. Koss’s method produced the 25 percent rate, which Ms. then published.
Koss’s study had serious flaws. Her survey instrument was highly ambiguous, as University of California at Berkeley social-welfare professor Neil Gilbert has pointed out. But the most powerful refutation of Koss’s research came from her own subjects: 73 percent of the women whom she characterized as rape victims said that they hadn’t been raped. Further—though it is inconceivable that a raped woman would voluntarily have sex again with the fiend who attacked her—42 percent of Koss’s supposed victims had intercourse again with their alleged assailants.
All subsequent feminist rape studies have resulted in this discrepancy between the researchers’ conclusions and the subjects’ own views. A survey of sorority girls at the University of Virginia found that only 23 percent of the subjects whom the survey characterized as rape victims felt that they had been raped—a result that the university’s director of Sexual and Domestic Violence Services calls “discouraging.” Equally damning was a 2000 campus rape study conducted under the aegis of the Department of Justice. Sixty-five percent of what the feminist researchers called “completed rape” victims and three-quarters of “attempted rape” victims said that they did not think that their experiences were “serious enough to report.” The “victims” in the study, moreover, “generally did not state that their victimization resulted in physical or emotional injuries,” report the researchers.
More...
The Campus Rape Myth by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Winter 2008
It’s a lonely job, working the phones at a college rape crisis center. Day after day, you wait for the casualties to show up from the alleged campus rape epidemic—but no one calls. Could this mean that the crisis is overblown? No: it means, according to the campus sexual-assault industry, that the abuse of coeds is worse than anyone had ever imagined. It means that consultants and counselors need more funding to persuade student rape victims to break the silence of their suffering.
The campus rape movement highlights the current condition of radical feminism, from its self-indulgent bathos to its embrace of ever more vulnerable female victimhood. But the movement is an even more important barometer of academia itself. In a delicious historical irony, the baby boomers who dismantled the university’s intellectual architecture in favor of unbridled sex and protest have now bureaucratized both. While women’s studies professors bang pots and blow whistles at antirape rallies, in the dorm next door, freshman counselors and deans pass out tips for better orgasms and the use of sex toys. The academic bureaucracy is roomy enough to sponsor both the dour antimale feminism of the college rape movement and the promiscuous hookup culture of student life. The only thing that doesn’t fit into the university’s new commitments is serious scholarly purpose.
The campus rape industry’s central tenet is that one-quarter of all college girls will be raped or be the targets of attempted rape by the end of their college years (completed rapes outnumbering attempted rapes by a ratio of about three to two). The girls’ assailants are not terrifying strangers grabbing them in dark alleys but the guys sitting next to them in class or at the cafeteria.
This claim, first published in Ms. magazine in 1987, took the universities by storm. By the early 1990s, campus rape centers and 24-hour hotlines were opening across the country, aided by tens of millions of dollars of federal funding. Victimhood rituals sprang up: first the Take Back the Night rallies, in which alleged rape victims reveal their stories to gathered crowds of candle-holding supporters; then the Clothesline Project, in which T-shirts made by self-proclaimed rape survivors are strung on campus, while recorded sounds of gongs and drums mark minute-by-minute casualties of the “rape culture.” A special rhetoric emerged: victims’ family and friends were “co-survivors”; “survivors” existed in a larger “community of survivors.”
An army of salesmen took to the road, selling advice to administrators on how to structure sexual-assault procedures, and lecturing freshmen on the “undetected rapists” in their midst. Rape bureaucrats exchanged notes at such gatherings as the Inter Ivy Sexual Assault Conferences and the New England College Sexual Assault Network. Organizations like One in Four and Men Can Stop Rape tried to persuade college boys to redefine their masculinity away from the “rape culture.” The college rape infrastructure shows no signs of a slowdown. In 2006, for example, Yale created a new Sexual Harassment and Assault Resources and Education Center, despite numerous resources for rape victims already on campus.
If the one-in-four statistic is correct—it is sometimes modified to “one-in-five to one-in-four”—campus rape represents a crime wave of unprecedented proportions. No crime, much less one as serious as rape, has a victimization rate remotely approaching 20 or 25 percent, even over many years. The 2006 violent crime rate in Detroit, one of the most violent cities in America, was 2,400 murders, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults per 100,000 inhabitants—a rate of 2.4 percent. The one-in-four statistic would mean that every year, millions of young women graduate who have suffered the most terrifying assault, short of murder, that a woman can experience. Such a crime wave would require nothing less than a state of emergency—Take Back the Night rallies and 24-hour hotlines would hardly be adequate to counter this tsunami of sexual violence. Admissions policies letting in tens of thousands of vicious criminals would require a complete revision, perhaps banning boys entirely. The nation’s nearly 10 million female undergrads would need to take the most stringent safety precautions. Certainly, they would have to alter their sexual behavior radically to avoid falling prey to the rape epidemic.
None of this crisis response occurs, of course—because the crisis doesn’t exist. During the 1980s, feminist researchers committed to the rape-culture theory had discovered that asking women directly if they had been raped yielded disappointing results—very few women said that they had been. So Ms. commissioned University of Arizona public health professor Mary Koss to develop a different way of measuring the prevalence of rape. Rather than asking female students about rape per se, Koss asked them if they had experienced actions that she then classified as rape. Koss’s method produced the 25 percent rate, which Ms. then published.
Koss’s study had serious flaws. Her survey instrument was highly ambiguous, as University of California at Berkeley social-welfare professor Neil Gilbert has pointed out. But the most powerful refutation of Koss’s research came from her own subjects: 73 percent of the women whom she characterized as rape victims said that they hadn’t been raped. Further—though it is inconceivable that a raped woman would voluntarily have sex again with the fiend who attacked her—42 percent of Koss’s supposed victims had intercourse again with their alleged assailants.
All subsequent feminist rape studies have resulted in this discrepancy between the researchers’ conclusions and the subjects’ own views. A survey of sorority girls at the University of Virginia found that only 23 percent of the subjects whom the survey characterized as rape victims felt that they had been raped—a result that the university’s director of Sexual and Domestic Violence Services calls “discouraging.” Equally damning was a 2000 campus rape study conducted under the aegis of the Department of Justice. Sixty-five percent of what the feminist researchers called “completed rape” victims and three-quarters of “attempted rape” victims said that they did not think that their experiences were “serious enough to report.” The “victims” in the study, moreover, “generally did not state that their victimization resulted in physical or emotional injuries,” report the researchers.
7
@3 Unless she's pretty sure he raped her. She was there, a firsthand witness you might say, and I'd have to believe her over, say, him. Or the UNC board of douchetasticness. I hope she sues them right back, for trying to restrict her freedom of speech without a court order (because they can't get one of those, now can they? Something about the law and the constitution and she'd sue them into the ground with a pro bono lawyer she could find just about anywhere?).
8
@3 -- Click through to the Jezebel article, which the article Cienna linked to cites. (http://jezebel.com/5986693/college-rape-…)
Of note:"Landen said that she attended a preliminary Honor Court meeting and asked whether she could have violated the Honor Code simply by saying she was raped; the answer was yes."
Of note:"Landen said that she attended a preliminary Honor Court meeting and asked whether she could have violated the Honor Code simply by saying she was raped; the answer was yes."
9
@3 - and she's not even naming the guy. She's just saying she got raped. Which is apparently enough for them to put the degree she spent ~$100,000+ on in jeopardy. Nice.
10
@5: Later in that article, she claims that women who are taken advantage of while drunk are responsible for what happened to them.
"Though the Harvard victim does not remember her actions...she probably participated voluntarily in the usual prelude to intercourse, and probably even in intercourse itself, however woozily."
She also asserts that at least one in ten and up to half of rape reports are false, and tops it off by demonizing sex-positivity.
So, you're quoting a story that says that women who are raped at college are lying, exaggerating sluts that asked for it by getting drunk and leading boys on. Thanks for showing your aesthetically disgusting colors again, Alleged.
"Though the Harvard victim does not remember her actions...she probably participated voluntarily in the usual prelude to intercourse, and probably even in intercourse itself, however woozily."
She also asserts that at least one in ten and up to half of rape reports are false, and tops it off by demonizing sex-positivity.
So, you're quoting a story that says that women who are raped at college are lying, exaggerating sluts that asked for it by getting drunk and leading boys on. Thanks for showing your aesthetically disgusting colors again, Alleged.
11
@7-8, doesn't saying you were raped kinda imply a rapist? Doesn't that potentially constitute slander if people know who you're talking about? Isn't the school responsible to keep their other student safe from slander? Slander is NOT free speech.
@6, chill, these articles are intentionally vague and inflammatory to get you all riled up. These questions need to be asked.
@6, chill, these articles are intentionally vague and inflammatory to get you all riled up. These questions need to be asked.
12
How are universities supposed to keep rape statistics low if victims keep talking about being raped?
13
@3,
Even if she's not using his name? You really are fucking insane, you know that, right? A woman simply stating she was raped without even pointing the finger at the rapist is some sort of violation to your dumb, crazy ass?
By the way, you stupid motherfucker, the woman is being punished by the school because it's currently embroiled in a lawsuit due to it not taking sexual assault allegations seriously:
Die in a fire already.
Even if she's not using his name? You really are fucking insane, you know that, right? A woman simply stating she was raped without even pointing the finger at the rapist is some sort of violation to your dumb, crazy ass?
By the way, you stupid motherfucker, the woman is being punished by the school because it's currently embroiled in a lawsuit due to it not taking sexual assault allegations seriously:
Most likely, UNC’s action against the student is revenge. Gambill’s story first came to light as part of a case against the school in which a former assistant dean accused UNC of intentionally under-reporting cases of sexual assault. Gambill was one of three students providing evidence to prove the dean’s case. After it went public, Gambill publicly addressed the failings of UNC’s system, reporting that they “were not only offensive and inappropriate, but they were so victim-blaming… They made it seem like my assault was completely my fault.”
Die in a fire already.
14
It's simple.
If the University allows it, then it acknowledges it.
If it acknowledges it, then it supports it.
If it's true, no problem.
If it's false then both her and the University are subject to liable.
The person being slandered (or accused) can make his lawsuit against both the person and the organization.
Capisce?
If the University allows it, then it acknowledges it.
If it acknowledges it, then it supports it.
If it's true, no problem.
If it's false then both her and the University are subject to liable.
The person being slandered (or accused) can make his lawsuit against both the person and the organization.
Capisce?
15
@11,
Not if it's true, you stupid fuck.
Doesn't that potentially constitute slander if people know who you're talking about?
Not if it's true, you stupid fuck.
16
"The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. -- U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials. " (link)
And yeah, wow. Not like he might have violated any honor code... Good lord.
And yeah, wow. Not like he might have violated any honor code... Good lord.
17
@10 Which behavior is mirrored in the case at hand.
From the Daily Tar Hill article that started all of this (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013…
"""“When I went to report my assault in 2007, I asked an administrator what the process would look like,” Clark said. “Instead, that person told me, ‘Rape is like a football game, Annie. If you look back on the game, and you’re the quarterback and you’re in charge, is there anything that you would have done differently in that situation?’”"""
And then from an earlier article: (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2012…)
"""When the relationship ended, [Landen] said she was met with months of stalking, threats and harassment.
Those actions lead her to press charges with the Honor Court. In her trial, Gambill said she was forced to answer irrelevant and inappropriate questions.
“The woman student said to me, ‘Landen, as a woman, I know that if that had happened to me, I would’ve broken up with him the first time it happened. Will you explain to me why you didn’t?’” she said."""
From the Daily Tar Hill article that started all of this (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013…
"""“When I went to report my assault in 2007, I asked an administrator what the process would look like,” Clark said. “Instead, that person told me, ‘Rape is like a football game, Annie. If you look back on the game, and you’re the quarterback and you’re in charge, is there anything that you would have done differently in that situation?’”"""
And then from an earlier article: (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2012…)
"""When the relationship ended, [Landen] said she was met with months of stalking, threats and harassment.
Those actions lead her to press charges with the Honor Court. In her trial, Gambill said she was forced to answer irrelevant and inappropriate questions.
“The woman student said to me, ‘Landen, as a woman, I know that if that had happened to me, I would’ve broken up with him the first time it happened. Will you explain to me why you didn’t?’” she said."""
18
"As a freshman, Gambill was continually abused - sexually and verbally - by her long-term boyfriend."
How many times did she go back to get raped?
How many times did she go back to get raped?
21
@15, I'd say the guy deserves not to be labeled a rapist unless he can be proven to actually be a rapist, given the stigma associated with an accusation of that kind. I'm not sure why you're so offended at this? She may not say his name, but I'm willing to bet that it's no secret on campus.
Go ahead and re-read that article. There's something they're not saying. It's either terribly researched, written by an 8th grader, or is leaving out large chunks of information to push a certain angle. It reads like shitty propaganda. I'm not saying it isn't true, but I'm not trusting any of this until more information is available.
Go ahead and re-read that article. There's something they're not saying. It's either terribly researched, written by an 8th grader, or is leaving out large chunks of information to push a certain angle. It reads like shitty propaganda. I'm not saying it isn't true, but I'm not trusting any of this until more information is available.
22
I'm not a lawyer but I watch a lot of television with lawyers as characters. Is the following possible:
If Rapey McRaperson thinks she's libeling or slandering him, let him sue her in a civil court as such.
Her defense -- 'it's true therefore not libel' would then have to stand as evidence in court.
The burden of proof in a civil case is preponderance of the evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt.
But then Rapey McRaperson would have to come out of hiding and admit he's the alleged Big Raper on Campus.
If the right lawyer shouts 'I object" at the right times, learns a valuable life-lesson, and sells the case in closing arguments, she's going to bring BROC down.
If Rapey McRaperson thinks she's libeling or slandering him, let him sue her in a civil court as such.
Her defense -- 'it's true therefore not libel' would then have to stand as evidence in court.
The burden of proof in a civil case is preponderance of the evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt.
But then Rapey McRaperson would have to come out of hiding and admit he's the alleged Big Raper on Campus.
If the right lawyer shouts 'I object" at the right times, learns a valuable life-lesson, and sells the case in closing arguments, she's going to bring BROC down.
23
#22
The question is, why all the Hamlet "I'll disguise my accusations as a character in a play" shannanigans?
"And thus doth he become so riled he striketh in angereth and exposeth hisself" or some crap like that?
Why not simply make a charge and then go public?
The question is, why all the Hamlet "I'll disguise my accusations as a character in a play" shannanigans?
"And thus doth he become so riled he striketh in angereth and exposeth hisself" or some crap like that?
Why not simply make a charge and then go public?
25
All these people - SROTU, Turtle, anyone else - who are defending the alleged rapist's right to be presumed innocent unless found guilty, and who are claiming that the University is intervening lest it be seen as condoning libel: the linked article clearly states that she is not publicly identifying her alleged assailant.
Basically, you've got three options here: (1) you can arbitrarily disbelieve your only source of information, and insist against the evidence that she is defaming her assailant; (2) you can find actual evidence she is publicly identifying her alleged rapist, and so substantiate your concerns that she is impeding his right to live his life unharassed, a right he retains since he's not (yet?) been found guilty; or (3) you can admit you're full of shit, and possibly even admit you've been engaging in mindless, knee-jerk misogyny.
I'm hoping against hope for (3).
Basically, you've got three options here: (1) you can arbitrarily disbelieve your only source of information, and insist against the evidence that she is defaming her assailant; (2) you can find actual evidence she is publicly identifying her alleged rapist, and so substantiate your concerns that she is impeding his right to live his life unharassed, a right he retains since he's not (yet?) been found guilty; or (3) you can admit you're full of shit, and possibly even admit you've been engaging in mindless, knee-jerk misogyny.
I'm hoping against hope for (3).
26
@21 -- If you're looking for more reporting on the subject, I'd suggest you read the original DailyTarHeel articles which the Jezebel and ThinkProgress articles are referring to. Start with this one: http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2012… and then hop on to this one: http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013…
28
@25, "To state a defamation claim, the person claiming defamation need not be mentioned by name." - eff.org
Your list of options was not exhaustive. And what in the hell is misogynistic about presuming innocence of someone who is not only NOT convicted, but NOT EVEN accused? At what point does that translate to 'hatred of women'? Talk about knee-jerk reactions!
What of the lynch mob ready to burn all of NC to get at the evil rapist at the first whiff of a semi-accusation? I think your emotions have gotten the better of you.
Your list of options was not exhaustive. And what in the hell is misogynistic about presuming innocence of someone who is not only NOT convicted, but NOT EVEN accused? At what point does that translate to 'hatred of women'? Talk about knee-jerk reactions!
What of the lynch mob ready to burn all of NC to get at the evil rapist at the first whiff of a semi-accusation? I think your emotions have gotten the better of you.
30
"Some pretty ignorant male privilege on here........"
Taking your useless Evergreen State liberals arts degree out for a walk?
Taking your useless Evergreen State liberals arts degree out for a walk?
31
@26, thanks for the links. They were informative.
She accused an ex boyfriend of rape, and he was found innocent. I'd imagine accusing a (legally) innocent person of rape publicly - whether by name or be inference - constitutes some form of defamation, so the school is, in fact, protecting one of their students from further (perceived) harm.
Interesting that none of that was in the inflammatory article! No wonder it read so poorly, they were dancing around something they didn't want to say.
@keshmeshi, No need to apologize. I realize you get worked up about this stuff. My privilege has granted me strong reading comprehension, so I did the hard research to get to the bottom of this for you.
She accused an ex boyfriend of rape, and he was found innocent. I'd imagine accusing a (legally) innocent person of rape publicly - whether by name or be inference - constitutes some form of defamation, so the school is, in fact, protecting one of their students from further (perceived) harm.
Interesting that none of that was in the inflammatory article! No wonder it read so poorly, they were dancing around something they didn't want to say.
@keshmeshi, No need to apologize. I realize you get worked up about this stuff. My privilege has granted me strong reading comprehension, so I did the hard research to get to the bottom of this for you.
32
#28
Exactly.
Say someone or a group of people knew that she only dated one guy during the period in question. They might presume this is the person she's speaking of...and possibly pass that name along to others. At that point the damage is done. The defamed person is well within his right to sue, and sue large, if in fact, the allegations are false.
Exactly.
Say someone or a group of people knew that she only dated one guy during the period in question. They might presume this is the person she's speaking of...and possibly pass that name along to others. At that point the damage is done. The defamed person is well within his right to sue, and sue large, if in fact, the allegations are false.
34
@31, women cannot be held to patriarchal standards like "evidence," "law," "logic," or "fairness." What any woman says is the truth at all times, and if you question or examine even the tiniest portion of any woman's statement, you're a sexist AND a misogynist. Get with the program.
36
"Where did it say her rapist was found not guilty in a court of law?"
Where does it say her "long term boyfriend" actually raped her?
Where does it say her "long term boyfriend" actually raped her?
37
@28 I think you're missing the larger point here, along with a little bit of irony -- the complaint that was submitted against UNC alleges that the university is coercing its student body and its faculty into "underreporting cases and violat[ing] the Campus Sexual Assault Victims' Bill of Rights" and other, Federal Laws.
One of the women in the complaint, having spoken publicly on how she believes she was so coerced, is being brought up on Honor Code violations for, effectively, reporting an instance of sexual assault.
So it's not the assault that is at question here -- she brought it to the schools' Honor Court a year ago and it's apparently since been settled -- but rather the school's handling of her case that is at issue. Things like:
- Her school supplied counsel giving her testimony to her parents, even though it was supposed to be sealed
- The Dean of Students' office failing to notify her when her alleged attacker moved into campus housing across the street from her, though the school had said they would notify her if he returned to campus, and ensure that he was housed away from her on campus
- In another instance, an accuser "was never given key information, such as her option to appeal. As her case advanced, she said she was left uninformed of changes and new decisions."
Again -- go read the original reporting on this and stop assuming that it's a case of some random guy not getting a fair shake, because it's not about the guy; it's about the system, and how it's broken.
One of the women in the complaint, having spoken publicly on how she believes she was so coerced, is being brought up on Honor Code violations for, effectively, reporting an instance of sexual assault.
So it's not the assault that is at question here -- she brought it to the schools' Honor Court a year ago and it's apparently since been settled -- but rather the school's handling of her case that is at issue. Things like:
- Her school supplied counsel giving her testimony to her parents, even though it was supposed to be sealed
- The Dean of Students' office failing to notify her when her alleged attacker moved into campus housing across the street from her, though the school had said they would notify her if he returned to campus, and ensure that he was housed away from her on campus
- In another instance, an accuser "was never given key information, such as her option to appeal. As her case advanced, she said she was left uninformed of changes and new decisions."
Again -- go read the original reporting on this and stop assuming that it's a case of some random guy not getting a fair shake, because it's not about the guy; it's about the system, and how it's broken.
38
From the stories in the Daily Tar Heel, it appears that Ms Gambill brought her rape charges to the University Honor Court instead of the police and the criminal justice system.
So I think TortoiseTurtle is overstating it when writing "She accused an ex boyfriend of rape, and he was found innocent." Yes, but in a kangaroo court, not a real one.
We know it was a kangaroo court because she was asked inappropriate and off-topic questions and testimony that was supposed to be kept confidential was shared outside the courtroom. I don't think we can rely on this "court" to determine the accused's guilt.
Also, would TortoiseTurtle feel better about it if the victim had proclaimed "I was raped"? Would that have protected the accused's rights? Would that have provided a warm blanket of protection for the rapist? Should people who were robbed proclaim "I was allegedly robbed!"? Should people who are shot report to the police and the press that they were allegedly shot? Or is rape the only crime that can only be alleged rather than announced?
So I think TortoiseTurtle is overstating it when writing "She accused an ex boyfriend of rape, and he was found innocent." Yes, but in a kangaroo court, not a real one.
We know it was a kangaroo court because she was asked inappropriate and off-topic questions and testimony that was supposed to be kept confidential was shared outside the courtroom. I don't think we can rely on this "court" to determine the accused's guilt.
Also, would TortoiseTurtle feel better about it if the victim had proclaimed "I was raped"? Would that have protected the accused's rights? Would that have provided a warm blanket of protection for the rapist? Should people who were robbed proclaim "I was allegedly robbed!"? Should people who are shot report to the police and the press that they were allegedly shot? Or is rape the only crime that can only be alleged rather than announced?
39
"The Dean of Students' office failing to notify her when her alleged attacker moved into campus housing across the street from her"
If he had already been exonerated, why WOULD they continue to notify her of his whereabouts?
Is there some sort of detailed timeline of this whole thing anywhere?
If he had already been exonerated, why WOULD they continue to notify her of his whereabouts?
Is there some sort of detailed timeline of this whole thing anywhere?
40
@21
Nobody was labeling any specific individual a rapist.
The victim was attempting to DESCRIBE the act of being raped by calling it "rape."
Which is perpetrated by a, you know, corporeal being that is a rapist.
How the fuck else are you going to describe it? Like:
"This traumatic thing happened to me. It was unpleasant and without my consent. Somewhere in my body. And I did not do it to myself..."
Leaving everybody to play fifty god damned questions as to what the hell the victim is talking about? Do you think about this shit before you post?
Nobody was labeling any specific individual a rapist.
The victim was attempting to DESCRIBE the act of being raped by calling it "rape."
Which is perpetrated by a, you know, corporeal being that is a rapist.
How the fuck else are you going to describe it? Like:
"This traumatic thing happened to me. It was unpleasant and without my consent. Somewhere in my body. And I did not do it to myself..."
Leaving everybody to play fifty god damned questions as to what the hell the victim is talking about? Do you think about this shit before you post?
41
I used punctuation that got confused for HTML code. Let me try that last paragraph again.
Also, would TortoiseTurtle feel better about it if the victim had proclaimed "I was *allegedly* raped"? Would that have protected the accused's rights? Would that have provided the warm blanket of protection for the *alleged* rapist that TortoiseTurtle thinks was missing?
I'm also curious about whether this rule extends to other crimes. Should people who were robbed proclaim "I was allegedly robbed!"? Should people who are shot report to the police and the press that they were allegedly shot? Or is rape the only crime that can only be alleged rather than announced?
Also, would TortoiseTurtle feel better about it if the victim had proclaimed "I was *allegedly* raped"? Would that have protected the accused's rights? Would that have provided the warm blanket of protection for the *alleged* rapist that TortoiseTurtle thinks was missing?
I'm also curious about whether this rule extends to other crimes. Should people who were robbed proclaim "I was allegedly robbed!"? Should people who are shot report to the police and the press that they were allegedly shot? Or is rape the only crime that can only be alleged rather than announced?
42
@31 & @36
There was no court of law, which is the point. She went to the Honor Court per UNC regulations, which was presided over by a group of Undergraduates (http://studentconduct.unc.edu/honor-syst…).
The complaint's claims include whether the training received by the undergraduate body was sufficient for, and whether it is even appropriate for accusations of felony crimes to be heard by, such a body.
There was no court of law, which is the point. She went to the Honor Court per UNC regulations, which was presided over by a group of Undergraduates (http://studentconduct.unc.edu/honor-syst…).
The complaint's claims include whether the training received by the undergraduate body was sufficient for, and whether it is even appropriate for accusations of felony crimes to be heard by, such a body.
43
As a UNC alum, a huge underlying problem here is the overreach of the honor court system.
Criminal cases need to be handled by the proper authorities, not undergrads polishing their law school applications. Let the honor court deal with germane issues like academic dishonesty or imposing additional university disciplinary action once guilt has been established in the legal system (e.g., expelling a student who has been convicted of raping another in a court of law).
Criminal cases need to be handled by the proper authorities, not undergrads polishing their law school applications. Let the honor court deal with germane issues like academic dishonesty or imposing additional university disciplinary action once guilt has been established in the legal system (e.g., expelling a student who has been convicted of raping another in a court of law).
44
Yeah, because convicted rapists or accused rapists are never forgiven for their actions and accepted by society. Just look at those outcasts Mike Tyson, Ben Roethlisberger, and Roman Polanski. They definitely have had their lives absolutely ruined and live in obscure poverty.
45
@39 -- I would encourage you to read the original reporting (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013…). From that article:
"""After her trial last year, Gambill said her accused attacker voluntarily withdrew from UNC. She said [Dean of Students Jonathan] Sauls promised that if the student returned, Sauls would tell her and ensure the student lived as far from her as possible.
In January, Gambill said her parents called Sauls to check in — only to find that her accused attacker was returning to campus and would be living in the residence hall across the street from hers.
“It betrayed my trust and it’s put my safety in danger,” Gambill said. “If my parents hadn’t called, I would’ve shown up this semester and seen my rapist walking around campus.”"""
"""After her trial last year, Gambill said her accused attacker voluntarily withdrew from UNC. She said [Dean of Students Jonathan] Sauls promised that if the student returned, Sauls would tell her and ensure the student lived as far from her as possible.
In January, Gambill said her parents called Sauls to check in — only to find that her accused attacker was returning to campus and would be living in the residence hall across the street from hers.
“It betrayed my trust and it’s put my safety in danger,” Gambill said. “If my parents hadn’t called, I would’ve shown up this semester and seen my rapist walking around campus.”"""
46
#11 So dumbass if someone punched you in the face but you had no witnesses should you forever remain silent? Piss off. People who commit crimes against us do not deserve our silence even if we cannot prove them guilty in a court of law. Like my neighbor who kicked in the back door. No honey I'm not going to stop telling my neighbors they did it. I saw them do it and I'm talking sweets. If worthless little theives don't like it they can attempt to sue me but no official institution has the right to silence me. Again...on behalf of all crime victims...PISS OFF. You are an asshole. So sue me asshole.
48
"Yes, but in a kangaroo court, not a real one."
Those things ARE kangaroo courts... and usually because it's much easier to gain a "conviction" there than in a real court. If the case was thrown out of an honor court, where the standard to meet is much more of a preponderance standard than a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, then she likely didn't have a leg to stand on. "Convictions" by these honor courts are frequently laughable, both because they claim jurisdiction over matters that aren't theirs to deal with (like criminal matters instead of, say, plagiarism) but because the deck is usually ridiculously stacked in favor of the PLAINTIFFS.
Those things ARE kangaroo courts... and usually because it's much easier to gain a "conviction" there than in a real court. If the case was thrown out of an honor court, where the standard to meet is much more of a preponderance standard than a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, then she likely didn't have a leg to stand on. "Convictions" by these honor courts are frequently laughable, both because they claim jurisdiction over matters that aren't theirs to deal with (like criminal matters instead of, say, plagiarism) but because the deck is usually ridiculously stacked in favor of the PLAINTIFFS.
49
So what did this serial rapist/long term boyfriend do, rape her on Friday nights, take her to dinner and a movie on Saturday nights? If a college kangaroo court codified by the campus rape industry couldn't find him guilty, maybe he isn't.
50
@44
The Roman Polanski rape case is especially sickening. Did you see a few years ago when a bunch of "stars" signed a petition to a european court to deny extradition of Polanski to the US? Truly sickening. Why is forcible rape not a life sentence? I want to see these monsters go away forever. UNC is making a HUGE mistake.
The Roman Polanski rape case is especially sickening. Did you see a few years ago when a bunch of "stars" signed a petition to a european court to deny extradition of Polanski to the US? Truly sickening. Why is forcible rape not a life sentence? I want to see these monsters go away forever. UNC is making a HUGE mistake.
51
Ok, hold on...
http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013…
I'm sorry, but put me in the assoholic catagory...how do you endure "months" of abuse unless Hannibal Lector has you in a pit in the basement of the chem building?
And, so, it's a long term relationship and then it turns to abuse? Did she ever mention this to the boyfriend or did she leave it in a half-half state and then one night decide (before telling him) that she no longer wanted the relationship and call it rape.
Look, rape is terrible. But is this what you are saying it is? It sounds fishy to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fMevYiZR…
She had endured months of sexual abuse from a long-term boyfriend.
http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013…
I'm sorry, but put me in the assoholic catagory...how do you endure "months" of abuse unless Hannibal Lector has you in a pit in the basement of the chem building?
And, so, it's a long term relationship and then it turns to abuse? Did she ever mention this to the boyfriend or did she leave it in a half-half state and then one night decide (before telling him) that she no longer wanted the relationship and call it rape.
Look, rape is terrible. But is this what you are saying it is? It sounds fishy to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fMevYiZR…
52
@ 51, you gotta remember a few things:
1. Women bear no responsibility for what happens to them EVER. EVER!
2. Women cannot be held to patriarchal standards like "evidence," "law," "logic," or "fairness." What any woman says or even feels is the truth at all times, and if you question or examine even the tiniest portion of any woman's statement or feelings, you're a sexist AND a misogynist. Get with the program.
1. Women bear no responsibility for what happens to them EVER. EVER!
2. Women cannot be held to patriarchal standards like "evidence," "law," "logic," or "fairness." What any woman says or even feels is the truth at all times, and if you question or examine even the tiniest portion of any woman's statement or feelings, you're a sexist AND a misogynist. Get with the program.
54
Why doesn't the UNC honor court immeadiately refer all accusations of sexual assault to local police? Remind me to enroll in UNC before I decide to rob a bank or murder someone ....
55
@24: Some pretty ignorant male privilege on here........
It's not privilege, it's fear.
There was a study that did an independent review of thousands of rape cases, finding that 25% of accusations were provably true, 8% of accusations were provably false, and the rest had insufficient corroboratory evidence to make a determination either way. That suggests the percentage of false accusations is between 8% and 75%, likely somewhere in between.
I have no sympathy for rapists. If I ever stumbled upon a rape in progress, I would likely beat the man to death. And yet, when I read the rage and assumptions of guilt in these comments, it's conjures up scenarios in my imagination that terrify me.
It's not privilege, it's fear.
There was a study that did an independent review of thousands of rape cases, finding that 25% of accusations were provably true, 8% of accusations were provably false, and the rest had insufficient corroboratory evidence to make a determination either way. That suggests the percentage of false accusations is between 8% and 75%, likely somewhere in between.
I have no sympathy for rapists. If I ever stumbled upon a rape in progress, I would likely beat the man to death. And yet, when I read the rage and assumptions of guilt in these comments, it's conjures up scenarios in my imagination that terrify me.
58
@2: Woman. North Carolina. ...What was the question?
Also located in North Carolina - the Duke La Crosse Team.
Also located in North Carolina - the Duke La Crosse Team.
59
@52 Don't confuse anti-horseshit with "anti-woman".
@54 because most of the cases, like this one involving a student and her long term boyfriend/serial rapist, wouldn't last a minute in a real court of law or police investigation. The college rape industry has turned rape ("1 in 4 college women are raped!") into a farce.
@54 because most of the cases, like this one involving a student and her long term boyfriend/serial rapist, wouldn't last a minute in a real court of law or police investigation. The college rape industry has turned rape ("1 in 4 college women are raped!") into a farce.
60
it seems some of you commenters think that a boyfriend can't rape his girlfriend because they're in a relationship, so therefore no rape. i'm pretty sure it's still considered rape if it's unwanted, no matter what the relationship between the two parties.
62
@ 55, another way to say that is "between 25% and 92% of rape accusations are true." Given our culture and the sad reality of how common stories like these are, I'd say that the number of actual rapes is high and false accusations are low.
64
@60 one question though, when you're in a long term relationship/rape, what do you talk about over dinner?
66
Oh, man, I love how the troll thinks that being in a relationship means rape isn't really rape because there was consent at some point. Hey, troll, as with murder and most other egregious crimes, rapists are almost always known to their victims. Additionally, women do find themselves trapped in abusive relationships because it becomes a cyclical behavioural pattern. Is there a pathological deterministic aspect to it (ie, a girl who grows up seeing her mother abused is likely to enter in to a similar relationship- as a man is likely to abuse a woman if he had a similar example) - absolutely, but many more women I suspect tolerate this kind of abuse, and never go further than divorce to find redress.
Incidentally, because of trash like you, I personally feel that the court system might not support me in my defense against a rapist, so I'm prepared to defend myself physically at any cost should such a situation arise.
Incidentally, because of trash like you, I personally feel that the court system might not support me in my defense against a rapist, so I'm prepared to defend myself physically at any cost should such a situation arise.
67
", I love how the troll thinks that being in a relationship means rape isn't really rape because there was consent at some point. "
Oh no, I'm sure it's possible. Just curious how long into a "long term" relationship it begins to affect your relationship.
Btw, he was found innocent by a committee well versed in campus rape politics, so yes, the burden of proof is now upon her. Until then, this is political horseshit.
Oh no, I'm sure it's possible. Just curious how long into a "long term" relationship it begins to affect your relationship.
Btw, he was found innocent by a committee well versed in campus rape politics, so yes, the burden of proof is now upon her. Until then, this is political horseshit.
68
"so I'm prepared to defend myself physically at any cost should such a situation arise."
God bless the second amendment! Just make sure you shoot him before going on a second date.
God bless the second amendment! Just make sure you shoot him before going on a second date.
69
This is only anecdotal, but virtually every friend I've had who is a woman has experienced varying degrees of sexual assault beginning in the teenage years and beyond. Did any of them ever report it? No. It was easier to move on than deal with their lives being dissected by friends, family, police, strangers, and annoying online commentators who have know idea what it feels like to have your body violated so badly it violates your whole being.
Rape is not about sex. It is about control and terror. That's why it is still used as an effective weapon during times of war.
The majority of women would never make a false accusation because what would that do for them?
I'm all over the place, but the way people respond to rape and sexual assault really fucking pisses me off. It is misogyny. Rape is more of a men issue than a women's issue as far as I'm concerned. Men need to get their shit together, shut the fuck up, and become better.
Rape is not about sex. It is about control and terror. That's why it is still used as an effective weapon during times of war.
The majority of women would never make a false accusation because what would that do for them?
I'm all over the place, but the way people respond to rape and sexual assault really fucking pisses me off. It is misogyny. Rape is more of a men issue than a women's issue as far as I'm concerned. Men need to get their shit together, shut the fuck up, and become better.
70
@65: The data are from an ongoing study being conducted by End Violence Against Women International.
I came across it in this Seattle Weekly article on the subject, which is worth the read. It appears my memory of the percentage of false accusations was off by 1 - as of 2009, it was 7% rather than 8%. I think the 8% number was from an FBI study.
You're going to have to google for the original research report to verify my recollection of the 25% figure, and to see whether they've updated these figures with data from the past 3 years.
@Cienna: You might find this interesting - in cases where false accusers have no discernible motive, psychologists have drawn parallels with Münchausen syndrome, which as you know involves (mostly) women faking illnesses such as cancer.
Also, you forgot the word "alleged" or "acquitted" in the title of your post.
I came across it in this Seattle Weekly article on the subject, which is worth the read. It appears my memory of the percentage of false accusations was off by 1 - as of 2009, it was 7% rather than 8%. I think the 8% number was from an FBI study.
You're going to have to google for the original research report to verify my recollection of the 25% figure, and to see whether they've updated these figures with data from the past 3 years.
@Cienna: You might find this interesting - in cases where false accusers have no discernible motive, psychologists have drawn parallels with Münchausen syndrome, which as you know involves (mostly) women faking illnesses such as cancer.
Also, you forgot the word "alleged" or "acquitted" in the title of your post.
71
A committee "versed" in "campus rape politics" (wtf?) is not a legal proceeding, and can just as well be influenced by a university whose image is at stake. When any guy sticks his cock in you without your permission, it's rape regardless of whether you've been married 20 years or not. For someone who purportedly is using "rape politics" to sabotage another person, this woman appears to be either remarkably inept, or behaving as an intimidated person would. Every single instance of assault I can think of that has occurred to me or my friends has started first with an assumption of trust. Like pulling off a condom mid-coitus, just because I let you into my apartment doesn't mean you can steal my tequila. That guy ended up walking through a party of a hundred people to go get his clothes out of the wet parking lot, and I haven't seen him around since. My best friend woke up from a nap on a couch to find a male friend of hers jerking off all over her, and has had to endure the kind of division that happens between all mutual friends. She also was unfairly dismissed from her job after a coworker assaulted her at a party. Someone she had known on a long-term basis. Moral of the story: TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, YOU IGNORANT SHIT FOR BRAINS.
Also, I neither carry nor need a gun. I'm still waiting for key-chain sized tasers, because that's just less messy for everyone, but for now I content myself with alternatives. I was never assaulted in a long term relationship until I was. A court of law, had I chosen to press the issue, would have agreed with me. And I could give less of a fuck what any pissant bunch of academic Dixie fucking white trash college kids and administrators think. Fuck all that noise, she should be taking the entire fucking university to court for slander.
More...
Also, I neither carry nor need a gun. I'm still waiting for key-chain sized tasers, because that's just less messy for everyone, but for now I content myself with alternatives. I was never assaulted in a long term relationship until I was. A court of law, had I chosen to press the issue, would have agreed with me. And I could give less of a fuck what any pissant bunch of academic Dixie fucking white trash college kids and administrators think. Fuck all that noise, she should be taking the entire fucking university to court for slander.
74
@69 - you are completely right. You report one instance of sexual assault, and the world will make you afraid to do it again, because it will probably be a person known by you, and you do endure a dissection or examination of your experience, fear, and physical self that is basically not only the expectation that you relive your traumatic experience in every particular, but are forced to try and defend that it was legitimately traumatic.
It is hardest where friends are involved, friends who are supposed to trust you and in whom you are supposed to be able to trust, and because they are the most likely, even when supportive, to not want it to be true that one of their friends is a sexual predator.
It is hardest where friends are involved, friends who are supposed to trust you and in whom you are supposed to be able to trust, and because they are the most likely, even when supportive, to not want it to be true that one of their friends is a sexual predator.
75
" Like pulling off a condom mid-coitus"
Sorry sugartits, that ain't rape. Stupid, rude and asshole-ish, but not rape.
"I let you into my apartment doesn't mean you can steal my tequila."
Did he rape the bottle?
"I'm still waiting for key-chain sized tasers"
Be sure to put that in your E-Harmony profile.
Sorry sugartits, that ain't rape. Stupid, rude and asshole-ish, but not rape.
"I let you into my apartment doesn't mean you can steal my tequila."
Did he rape the bottle?
"I'm still waiting for key-chain sized tasers"
Be sure to put that in your E-Harmony profile.
76
Man, troll got rejected by a feminist BIG time. Or wait, perhaps cut loose is more accurate, because apparently she stuck around long enough for him to learn the nomenclature. Or maybe he's just fucking obsessed by feminist ideas because he feels threatened by them.
Or maybe he just argues about it online anonymously between WoW sessions, and posting to MRA forums, because no self respecting woman would kick him to get a bug off her shoe.
Or maybe he just argues about it online anonymously between WoW sessions, and posting to MRA forums, because no self respecting woman would kick him to get a bug off her shoe.
77
Being raped by your father, assaulted by siblings, raped in your sleep by acquaintances, raped by "friends", assaulted in the streets as teenagers by grown ass men.
Yes it is only anecdotal, but these things happened to my smart and wonderful friends. Why? because they were women and because they were there in their homes, walking on the street and stupidly believing that they were safe.
Yes it is only anecdotal, but these things happened to my smart and wonderful friends. Why? because they were women and because they were there in their homes, walking on the street and stupidly believing that they were safe.
78
uh, actually, it is rape, because as soon as something becomes non-consensual, regardless of whether you're too drunk to notice, it becomes rape. That's the entire idea, non-consensual.
But in deference to the uselessness of trying to make myself stupid enough to understand stupid people, alas, you have defeated me with your brilliant man logic and witty, biting remarks. That's okay. You're not actually real. You're just a parody of the terrified, shivering, pathetic rotten worm feast that is the anonymous troll. And I almost feel sorry for you, if I wasn't almost certain that you're some overweight libertarian mealy mouthed little fuck who couldn't stand behind his ideas and intimidate women in real life, and so he has to do it on the internet in order to get that tiny little dopamine spike that feeds your illusion of self importance.
Woe is me. However shall my ego recover. And you're probably too ugly to rape.
But in deference to the uselessness of trying to make myself stupid enough to understand stupid people, alas, you have defeated me with your brilliant man logic and witty, biting remarks. That's okay. You're not actually real. You're just a parody of the terrified, shivering, pathetic rotten worm feast that is the anonymous troll. And I almost feel sorry for you, if I wasn't almost certain that you're some overweight libertarian mealy mouthed little fuck who couldn't stand behind his ideas and intimidate women in real life, and so he has to do it on the internet in order to get that tiny little dopamine spike that feeds your illusion of self importance.
Woe is me. However shall my ego recover. And you're probably too ugly to rape.
79
@77 I'm pretty sure it was because the men stupidly believed they were human, not that the women made the mistake of existing and believing they had the right to be safe.
80
"uh, actually, it is rape"
On what planet is letting your rubber slip off rape? Planet evergreen college?
"you're probably too ugly to rape."
Too ugly to rape or too ugly to be raped? Either way, be sure to let the campus hysterics know only certain people rape/get raped, apparently based on looks alone.
Good luck with the dating. Do you also insist on splitting the check?
On what planet is letting your rubber slip off rape? Planet evergreen college?
"you're probably too ugly to rape."
Too ugly to rape or too ugly to be raped? Either way, be sure to let the campus hysterics know only certain people rape/get raped, apparently based on looks alone.
Good luck with the dating. Do you also insist on splitting the check?
81
" as soon as something becomes non-consensual, regardless of whether you're too drunk to notice, it becomes rape"
You should put that on a t-shirt sugartits.
You should put that on a t-shirt sugartits.
82
"You report one instance of sexual assault... it will probably be a person known by you, and you do endure a dissection or examination of your experience, fear, and physical self"
Why in God's name ought you NOT be to subjected to evidence gathering and cross-examination? Anyone accusing anyone else of a crime like this had better be able to make it stick. You claim someone shot you, you'd better be able to prove it. You claim someone stole from you, you'd better be able to prove it. You claim someone sexually assaulted you... you should just be believed? WTF?
Why in God's name ought you NOT be to subjected to evidence gathering and cross-examination? Anyone accusing anyone else of a crime like this had better be able to make it stick. You claim someone shot you, you'd better be able to prove it. You claim someone stole from you, you'd better be able to prove it. You claim someone sexually assaulted you... you should just be believed? WTF?
83
"She should get in touch with these people: http://thefire.org/
And sue the shit out of UNC. "
The person who should be suing the shit out of UNC is the accused, as he's been found not guilty and has had his name splashed all over the campus anyway.
And sue the shit out of UNC. "
The person who should be suing the shit out of UNC is the accused, as he's been found not guilty and has had his name splashed all over the campus anyway.
84
I hate victim blamers. It is not the job of a victim to behave in a specific way, like to scream, or run. Violence paralyzes most people.
Very few of us have had enough (unfortunate) experience with violence to handle it efficiently. As soon as it is clear, someone says no, man or woman, at that point it is indeed rape. Passed out? Rape. Attempting to physically resist? Rape. A person can control someone so tightly that they are a prisoner, even if they could technically leave, their psyche wont allow it. That does happen. Abuse is a hard thing to break free of.
I hate victim blaming, the sheer scale of the problem makes me think we need to replace this victim blaming phenomena with "potential-victim training". I don't mean simple kicks to the nutz and other mediocre techniques. I mean an equalizer, real fight training, against large tough men, being armed and training regularly, pepper spray, a knife.
These mean nothing without proper training and regular practice. If you are not injured, you are not really being trained. Any legitimate fight training involves being hurt, feeling pain. I'm not saying "why didn't you do this or that!" to a victim, I'm saying, rape is so prevalent, that it is clear that we, as a society, need to emphasize equalizing the size differential between men and women. I was recently reminded while playfully wrestling with a 130 pound woman, that I outweighed her by 100 pounds and could easily bench press her. I always thought of us as physical equals, her being so damned tough.
As a feminist, my entire life I have viewed women as my equal in every way, and was confused why they didn't play football with me, why wrestling was only allowed for girls starting circa 1995. It has been extremely difficult to come to terms with the fact that men are responsible for the vast majority of harm done to women. I hate that. I don't want it to be true. But there is no point in denying it, it is simply true. It is also simply true that we men are at least 30% stronger than women on average, I also hate that.
I detest violence, but I will help anyone in danger, at my own life's cost, if need be. But I wish we would train our girls growing up in real fighting techniques. If it is a "self-defense" class, that usually means it is a lighter form of defense. That is not what I recommend. I mean fight training. Hand to hand combat, weapons combat, and eventually, advanced hand to hand combate training. We can equalize the physical differential through fight and weapon training. I hope that someday we do.
If I have children, one of the few things that will not be up to them (I believe in allowing kids to choose their path), is a minimum of five years of fight training, and two years of advanced hand to hand combat training. After that, if they want to be a janitor, artist, or POTUS, I will support them in whatever makes them happy. Even if they choose to be a true pacifist. I just want to give them the chance to defeat a determined opponent, attacker, especially a rapist.
Lets train our girls to kick guys asses! I know it can be done. I have seen a small woman beat the hell out of a much larger man (he was a fighter too). It was beautiful. Trust me, she was within her legal right to issue that beat down.
Call me crazy, but I'm just trying to equalize the difference.
More...
Very few of us have had enough (unfortunate) experience with violence to handle it efficiently. As soon as it is clear, someone says no, man or woman, at that point it is indeed rape. Passed out? Rape. Attempting to physically resist? Rape. A person can control someone so tightly that they are a prisoner, even if they could technically leave, their psyche wont allow it. That does happen. Abuse is a hard thing to break free of.
I hate victim blaming, the sheer scale of the problem makes me think we need to replace this victim blaming phenomena with "potential-victim training". I don't mean simple kicks to the nutz and other mediocre techniques. I mean an equalizer, real fight training, against large tough men, being armed and training regularly, pepper spray, a knife.
These mean nothing without proper training and regular practice. If you are not injured, you are not really being trained. Any legitimate fight training involves being hurt, feeling pain. I'm not saying "why didn't you do this or that!" to a victim, I'm saying, rape is so prevalent, that it is clear that we, as a society, need to emphasize equalizing the size differential between men and women. I was recently reminded while playfully wrestling with a 130 pound woman, that I outweighed her by 100 pounds and could easily bench press her. I always thought of us as physical equals, her being so damned tough.
As a feminist, my entire life I have viewed women as my equal in every way, and was confused why they didn't play football with me, why wrestling was only allowed for girls starting circa 1995. It has been extremely difficult to come to terms with the fact that men are responsible for the vast majority of harm done to women. I hate that. I don't want it to be true. But there is no point in denying it, it is simply true. It is also simply true that we men are at least 30% stronger than women on average, I also hate that.
I detest violence, but I will help anyone in danger, at my own life's cost, if need be. But I wish we would train our girls growing up in real fighting techniques. If it is a "self-defense" class, that usually means it is a lighter form of defense. That is not what I recommend. I mean fight training. Hand to hand combat, weapons combat, and eventually, advanced hand to hand combate training. We can equalize the physical differential through fight and weapon training. I hope that someday we do.
If I have children, one of the few things that will not be up to them (I believe in allowing kids to choose their path), is a minimum of five years of fight training, and two years of advanced hand to hand combat training. After that, if they want to be a janitor, artist, or POTUS, I will support them in whatever makes them happy. Even if they choose to be a true pacifist. I just want to give them the chance to defeat a determined opponent, attacker, especially a rapist.
Lets train our girls to kick guys asses! I know it can be done. I have seen a small woman beat the hell out of a much larger man (he was a fighter too). It was beautiful. Trust me, she was within her legal right to issue that beat down.
Call me crazy, but I'm just trying to equalize the difference.
85
The defendant was found not guilty by an Honor Court. Campus authorities should handle petty thefts and public drunkenness. They should not handle felonies. That they are allowed to is unfathomable to me.
Seandr: This is rape culture, right here. You're participating in it.
Seandr: This is rape culture, right here. You're participating in it.
86
Did you hear that, Seandr? "This is rape culture, right here. You're participating in it."
Listen.
Listen.
87
it never ceases to amaze me, or rather, amuse me, when my actions somehow are implied to have been irresponsible and therefore make me responsible for what someone else chose to do. It's like I was by myself! Yes, sometimes I get really drunk and I make bad judgement, but choosing not to use protection isn't one of them. My friend choosing to strengthen my drunk with everclear instead of rum and failing to mention it, that wasn't my decision. So if someone is altering a decision I've made, concerning my body and health, then they're violating my free will. This is where the law is beautiful. It doesn't care that heroin is bad for you, because it's not a moral question, but a legal one: possessing or selling it is illegal because possessing or selling it is illegal and exactly zero fucks are given about whether you've become a shriveled up desiccated wreck. So if you're a hooker, and you get raped, and someone leaves some money next to your beaten body, that's still rape. It doesn't matter that you were plying an illegal trade that replicated those exact functions OR that you happened to be position in such a way that it was very likely to happen, it still wasn't consensual.
I just wanted that to be clear for anyone else who was having trouble keeping up, since I know troll is probably busy getting it on with his Braveheart poster.I don't have a problem relating personal experiences, since I think if more of us did, there would be less of a stigma, and less fear about confronting assailants in open court.
Oh, and 83@ you seem to fail to grasp the basic concept of how rape works. Well, let me tell you, "rape" is the french word for "shred" and having something forcibly shoved into your vagina not only causes damage, it also leaves a huge amount of trace evidence. So if a woman or a girl can feel safe in being able to immediately access emergency services, has the confidence to do that (which of course must be imparted by an education system that is mandated to talk about boy parts and girl parts) then just maybe it would be a little easier to see that justice is done. But since your solution is "she could be destroying someone's life!!111!" I have this to say- if in your view a guy's image and self esteem is more important than the health of not just the person he is accused of assaulting, but other potential victims, and indeed, public safety, then you deserve this wrath, and you deserve to be afraid of it for the rest of your life. Enjoy.
More...
I just wanted that to be clear for anyone else who was having trouble keeping up, since I know troll is probably busy getting it on with his Braveheart poster.I don't have a problem relating personal experiences, since I think if more of us did, there would be less of a stigma, and less fear about confronting assailants in open court.
Oh, and 83@ you seem to fail to grasp the basic concept of how rape works. Well, let me tell you, "rape" is the french word for "shred" and having something forcibly shoved into your vagina not only causes damage, it also leaves a huge amount of trace evidence. So if a woman or a girl can feel safe in being able to immediately access emergency services, has the confidence to do that (which of course must be imparted by an education system that is mandated to talk about boy parts and girl parts) then just maybe it would be a little easier to see that justice is done. But since your solution is "she could be destroying someone's life!!111!" I have this to say- if in your view a guy's image and self esteem is more important than the health of not just the person he is accused of assaulting, but other potential victims, and indeed, public safety, then you deserve this wrath, and you deserve to be afraid of it for the rest of your life. Enjoy.
88
The University administration claims it isn't behind the Honor Court charge against Gambill:
http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013…
She says she doesn't believe them. They may be correct though, and it is the ex-boyfriend/alleged rapist who is behind the complaint. In any case, there is a definite over-reach by the student prosecutors here. This is something they shouldn't be touching, as they do not have the experience or supervision to do so.
http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013…
She says she doesn't believe them. They may be correct though, and it is the ex-boyfriend/alleged rapist who is behind the complaint. In any case, there is a definite over-reach by the student prosecutors here. This is something they shouldn't be touching, as they do not have the experience or supervision to do so.
90
Karen Moon, director of UNC News Services: “Given that these charging decisions are made by student attorney generals and not by campus administrators, a claim of retaliation by the University would be without merit”
91
It's frustrating that the victim didn't report the rape to the police, or that a "college honor court" would accept a sexual assault case rather than having the victim go to the police. An honor court cannot put a rapist behind bars, and that will lead to more rapes. Also, without a police report, and investigation, there is absolutely no evidence to back the victim's allegations. She doesn't have much of a legal leg to stand on. It's a "he said she said"situation, and our legal system is based on the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
92
@85 crimes should be handled by the police ...honor courts belong to the 20s and 30s.
the quickest way to make adifference is for UNC alumni to stop donating to unc. and to start demanding change,
and for customers of companies who fund research at UNC or sponsor their shitty sporty events to demand they support women on campus and that Unc joins the 21st century.
the quickest way to make adifference is for UNC alumni to stop donating to unc. and to start demanding change,
and for customers of companies who fund research at UNC or sponsor their shitty sporty events to demand they support women on campus and that Unc joins the 21st century.
93
" our legal system is based on the concept of innocent until proven guilty."
Your white male privilege is showing.
Your white male privilege is showing.
94
So will cienna issue two corrections this morning:
1. It was not the university who is pursuing this.
2. The defendant was found not guilty by a board with much lower standards of evidence and guilt than any court in America.
1. It was not the university who is pursuing this.
2. The defendant was found not guilty by a board with much lower standards of evidence and guilt than any court in America.
95
@91, I'm not sure about UNC, but many colleges have jurisdiction over crimes that occur on their campuses. It's a big problem, especially when dealing with campus rapes.
96
Best thing ever you mean, this will allow a massive spotlight and forcibly change the school position, which is obviously the problem. Other schools can take note. Remember bigots, always overextend!
97
@95 if unc is anything like my old university it was college radicals who insisted on using a student run honor system because the standards for showing guilt, especially in rape cases, were so low. The police and courts, they argued, demanded actual evidence and did not accept hearsay. They essentially created the student "courts" as 'she said she said' proceedings. Luckily they dumped them and now refer all cases to the police. UNC should do the same.
98
95, A student run honor court with absolutely no power to criminality convict a rapist has jurisdiction over any actual body of law.
100
So have we arrived at no one has been acquitted in any real sense, she's alleging rape, she is allowed to and should be encouraged to allege rape if she believes she's been raped, the Uni saying otherwise is immoral and probably illegal, if her allegation is a malicious fabrication she should be responsible for that, and if that is the unlikely case the way the Uni is behaving is still wrong? At any rate "she might be mentally ill and making things up," while possible, is not at all a reasonable argument in support of a government institution trying to suppress her expression.
101
I'm curious too about what some of the more enraged posters think about a previous suggestion that the word "alleged" ought to have been used in the OP. In a flat sense that's the precise truth of the matter? Or is the term itself a rhetorical tool of the "rape culture"?
102
@101
Apologies for repeating myself here -- "Landen said that she attended a preliminary Honor Court meeting and asked whether she could have violated the Honor Code simply by saying she was raped; the answer was yes." (http://jezebel.com/5986693/college-rape-…)
The issue here is not the whys and wherefores of any specific incident, but rather the school's system of reaction to sexual assault itself. The irony here is the school's Honor Court being used as a tool to silence a woman who is attempting to speak up for herself and for at least 60-odd others who believe they have been ill-served by the school's treatment of sexual assault.
To everyone who is trying to dismiss this woman's story as a "he said / she said" affair, please be aware that that's not what Landen's up on Honor Code violations for. If anything, it's a case of "She Said / No, You can't say that."
Apologies for repeating myself here -- "Landen said that she attended a preliminary Honor Court meeting and asked whether she could have violated the Honor Code simply by saying she was raped; the answer was yes." (http://jezebel.com/5986693/college-rape-…)
The issue here is not the whys and wherefores of any specific incident, but rather the school's system of reaction to sexual assault itself. The irony here is the school's Honor Court being used as a tool to silence a woman who is attempting to speak up for herself and for at least 60-odd others who believe they have been ill-served by the school's treatment of sexual assault.
To everyone who is trying to dismiss this woman's story as a "he said / she said" affair, please be aware that that's not what Landen's up on Honor Code violations for. If anything, it's a case of "She Said / No, You can't say that."
104
@101 --
The administration and the school newspaper and all other second parties probably should use "alleged" before "rapist."
I don't care if the woman who claims to have been raped skips the word. If someone raped me, I'd be pretty upset if you insisted I call the guy who raped me my "alleged rapist" when I know for a fucking fact that he is just a plain old rapist responsible for raping me.
The administration and the school newspaper and all other second parties probably should use "alleged" before "rapist."
I don't care if the woman who claims to have been raped skips the word. If someone raped me, I'd be pretty upset if you insisted I call the guy who raped me my "alleged rapist" when I know for a fucking fact that he is just a plain old rapist responsible for raping me.
105
We are talking about an incident that was never reported to the police, so there was no investigation, or evidence gathered. Without any of that, no criminal charges were filed. The accused was not indicated, tried, or convicted by a court of law.
She chose instead to bring the matter to the student honor court, (A student run court should not have been allowed to take up the case, and since has been forbidden to do so from now on.) and they found the accused not guilty. The body before which she chose to present her case found her accusations not believable.
The accused but acquitted "defendant" filed a complaint against her for her publicly made, but unsupportable (due to the fact that a rape was never reported to, or investigated by the police.) accusations. Nobody but she and the man she accused knows what actually happened, and the rule of law is innocent until proven guilty.
She chose instead to bring the matter to the student honor court, (A student run court should not have been allowed to take up the case, and since has been forbidden to do so from now on.) and they found the accused not guilty. The body before which she chose to present her case found her accusations not believable.
The accused but acquitted "defendant" filed a complaint against her for her publicly made, but unsupportable (due to the fact that a rape was never reported to, or investigated by the police.) accusations. Nobody but she and the man she accused knows what actually happened, and the rule of law is innocent until proven guilty.
106
Wait, she hasn't publicly ID'd the rapist? Then what's the slander? The only possible complaint would be that she's lying and trying to paint an honest man as a rapist, but that only works if people know who she means. Is it that she's accusing the administration about being lax with security?
@104 Agreed. Anyone who has personally witnessed the event does not have to say "alleged." Only people who are quoting second and thirdhand do.
@104 Agreed. Anyone who has personally witnessed the event does not have to say "alleged." Only people who are quoting second and thirdhand do.
107
Again, y'all are missing the point -- As the original reporting notes: "Gambill says that when she reported the assault to the university last spring, she was told to go through the Honor Court."
The failure of the Honor Court is one of the components of the complaint filed, which alleges that "the university violated federal laws by dismissing reports of sexual assault, failing to adequately train employees in offering support for victims and downplaying rape statistics."
The failure of the Honor Court is one of the components of the complaint filed, which alleges that "the university violated federal laws by dismissing reports of sexual assault, failing to adequately train employees in offering support for victims and downplaying rape statistics."
108
106, what if someone known by your family and friends to be your ex-partner comes to your community publicly claiming that an ex-partner is a child molester, but does not use your name? Should you have no recourse?
109
107, If the college stopped her from reporting the alleged rape from the police then absolutely they should be held accountable.
110
Ok, it was just made clear to me by my 130 pound woman wrestling partner that women do not need or want another man telling them what to do or how to keep themselves safe. She told me to publicly speak (to men) about how despicable rape is and how we need to asure it doesn't happen.
Message received. Sorry if I offended anyone. I just hate victim blaming, so I want to teach people how to fight before they become victims. Apparently, I didn't invent that.
I think rapists are born, that no discussion will make someone capable of rape not capable of rape, that it is a leftover instinct from our past, that you have or don't have (like a bird that cannot fly anymore...), but my wrestling partner says that is not true, and that I have to tell men not to rape. I disagree, but since I have no proof or the scientific background to understand those issues, I will go ahead and tell men and my boys, should I ever have any, not to rape anyway, just to make sure. Sorry again.
Message received. Sorry if I offended anyone. I just hate victim blaming, so I want to teach people how to fight before they become victims. Apparently, I didn't invent that.
I think rapists are born, that no discussion will make someone capable of rape not capable of rape, that it is a leftover instinct from our past, that you have or don't have (like a bird that cannot fly anymore...), but my wrestling partner says that is not true, and that I have to tell men not to rape. I disagree, but since I have no proof or the scientific background to understand those issues, I will go ahead and tell men and my boys, should I ever have any, not to rape anyway, just to make sure. Sorry again.
111
"The failure of the Honor Court is one of the components of the complaint filed,"
I hope it wasn't that "the Honor Court handled this inappropriately" but "the Honor Court handled this at all." Such "Courts" have no place in deciding these sorts (criminal) matters.
I hope it wasn't that "the Honor Court handled this inappropriately" but "the Honor Court handled this at all." Such "Courts" have no place in deciding these sorts (criminal) matters.
112
"Such "Courts" have no place in deciding these sorts (criminal) matters."
Yes, but the Campus Rape Industry doesn't want 'evidence', 'innocent before proven guilty' and "facts" in these cases. It would disprove radical feminists' political point about the mythical 'rape epidemic' on college campuses. If you don't count "regret" (or taking off a condom during intercourse as suggested above) as rape, their numbers collapse and so does their funding.
Yes, but the Campus Rape Industry doesn't want 'evidence', 'innocent before proven guilty' and "facts" in these cases. It would disprove radical feminists' political point about the mythical 'rape epidemic' on college campuses. If you don't count "regret" (or taking off a condom during intercourse as suggested above) as rape, their numbers collapse and so does their funding.
113
@112 Note it's the studies and findings of the CDC, not some mythical "Campus Rape Industry," that's the origins of the "rape epidemic' you're so quick to dismiss.
http://www.cdc.gov/features/collegehealt… cites that "Each year, about 1 in 20 college women are sexually assaulted." In a typical 4-year degree course, that comes to a roughly 20% change of a woman being assaulted during her undergraduate program. Taking into account graduate studies, and an assertion that some portion of sexual assaults go un-reported, you arrive at the not unreasonable figure of 1-in-4 women being assaulted during the course of their post-secondary education.
http://www.cdc.gov/features/collegehealt… cites that "Each year, about 1 in 20 college women are sexually assaulted." In a typical 4-year degree course, that comes to a roughly 20% change of a woman being assaulted during her undergraduate program. Taking into account graduate studies, and an assertion that some portion of sexual assaults go un-reported, you arrive at the not unreasonable figure of 1-in-4 women being assaulted during the course of their post-secondary education.
114
What studies? I don't see any studies there, none cited. What I see is the number that's been thrown around ever since the highly flawed University of Arizona study :
"If the one-in-four statistic is correct—it is sometimes modified to “one-in-five to one-in-four”—campus rape represents a crime wave of unprecedented proportions. No crime, much less one as serious as rape, has a victimization rate remotely approaching 20 or 25 percent, even over many years. The 2006 violent crime rate in Detroit, one of the most violent cities in America, was 2,400 murders, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults per 100,000 inhabitants—a rate of 2.4 percent. The one-in-four statistic would mean that every year, millions of young women graduate who have suffered the most terrifying assault, short of murder, that a woman can experience. Such a crime wave would require nothing less than a state of emergency—Take Back the Night rallies and 24-hour hotlines would hardly be adequate to counter this tsunami of sexual violence. Admissions policies letting in tens of thousands of vicious criminals would require a complete revision, perhaps banning boys entirely. The nation’s nearly 10 million female undergrads would need to take the most stringent safety precautions. Certainly, they would have to alter their sexual behavior radically to avoid falling prey to the rape epidemic.
None of this crisis response occurs, of course—because the crisis doesn’t exist. During the 1980s, feminist researchers committed to the rape-culture theory had discovered that asking women directly if they had been raped yielded disappointing results—very few women said that they had been. So Ms. commissioned University of Arizona public health professor Mary Koss to develop a different way of measuring the prevalence of rape. Rather than asking female students about rape per se, Koss asked them if they had experienced actions that she then classified as rape. Koss’s method produced the 25 percent rate, which Ms. then published.
Koss’s study had serious flaws. Her survey instrument was highly ambiguous, as University of California at Berkeley social-welfare professor Neil Gilbert has pointed out. But the most powerful refutation of Koss’s research came from her own subjects: 73 percent of the women whom she characterized as rape victims said that they hadn’t been raped. Further—though it is inconceivable that a raped woman would voluntarily have sex again with the fiend who attacked her—42 percent of Koss’s supposed victims had intercourse again with their alleged assailants.
All subsequent feminist rape studies have resulted in this discrepancy between the researchers’ conclusions and the subjects’ own views. A survey of sorority girls at the University of Virginia found that only 23 percent of the subjects whom the survey characterized as rape victims felt that they had been raped—a result that the university’s director of Sexual and Domestic Violence Services calls “discouraging.” Equally damning was a 2000 campus rape study conducted under the aegis of the Department of Justice. Sixty-five percent of what the feminist researchers called “completed rape” victims and three-quarters of “attempted rape” victims said that they did not think that their experiences were “serious enough to report.” The “victims” in the study, moreover, “generally did not state that their victimization resulted in physical or emotional injuries,” report the researchers."
The Campus Rape Myth by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Winter 2008
More...
"If the one-in-four statistic is correct—it is sometimes modified to “one-in-five to one-in-four”—campus rape represents a crime wave of unprecedented proportions. No crime, much less one as serious as rape, has a victimization rate remotely approaching 20 or 25 percent, even over many years. The 2006 violent crime rate in Detroit, one of the most violent cities in America, was 2,400 murders, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults per 100,000 inhabitants—a rate of 2.4 percent. The one-in-four statistic would mean that every year, millions of young women graduate who have suffered the most terrifying assault, short of murder, that a woman can experience. Such a crime wave would require nothing less than a state of emergency—Take Back the Night rallies and 24-hour hotlines would hardly be adequate to counter this tsunami of sexual violence. Admissions policies letting in tens of thousands of vicious criminals would require a complete revision, perhaps banning boys entirely. The nation’s nearly 10 million female undergrads would need to take the most stringent safety precautions. Certainly, they would have to alter their sexual behavior radically to avoid falling prey to the rape epidemic.
None of this crisis response occurs, of course—because the crisis doesn’t exist. During the 1980s, feminist researchers committed to the rape-culture theory had discovered that asking women directly if they had been raped yielded disappointing results—very few women said that they had been. So Ms. commissioned University of Arizona public health professor Mary Koss to develop a different way of measuring the prevalence of rape. Rather than asking female students about rape per se, Koss asked them if they had experienced actions that she then classified as rape. Koss’s method produced the 25 percent rate, which Ms. then published.
Koss’s study had serious flaws. Her survey instrument was highly ambiguous, as University of California at Berkeley social-welfare professor Neil Gilbert has pointed out. But the most powerful refutation of Koss’s research came from her own subjects: 73 percent of the women whom she characterized as rape victims said that they hadn’t been raped. Further—though it is inconceivable that a raped woman would voluntarily have sex again with the fiend who attacked her—42 percent of Koss’s supposed victims had intercourse again with their alleged assailants.
All subsequent feminist rape studies have resulted in this discrepancy between the researchers’ conclusions and the subjects’ own views. A survey of sorority girls at the University of Virginia found that only 23 percent of the subjects whom the survey characterized as rape victims felt that they had been raped—a result that the university’s director of Sexual and Domestic Violence Services calls “discouraging.” Equally damning was a 2000 campus rape study conducted under the aegis of the Department of Justice. Sixty-five percent of what the feminist researchers called “completed rape” victims and three-quarters of “attempted rape” victims said that they did not think that their experiences were “serious enough to report.” The “victims” in the study, moreover, “generally did not state that their victimization resulted in physical or emotional injuries,” report the researchers."
The Campus Rape Myth by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Winter 2008
115
To quote Martin Amis:
"As far as I'm concerned, you can change your mind before, even during, but just not after sex."
"As far as I'm concerned, you can change your mind before, even during, but just not after sex."
116
Gillian Greensite, founder of the rape prevention education program at the University of California at Santa Cruz, writes that the seriousness of the crime "is being undermined by the growing tendency of some feminists to label all heterosexual miscommunication and insensitivity as acquaintance rape."
117
" In a typical 4-year degree course, that comes to a roughly 20% change of a woman being assaulted during her undergraduate program. "
Not necessarily - a not-insignificant number of those will have been repeatedly victimized. Kind of like how roughly 50% of marriages end in divorce, but significantly fewer married people have been divorced.
Not necessarily - a not-insignificant number of those will have been repeatedly victimized. Kind of like how roughly 50% of marriages end in divorce, but significantly fewer married people have been divorced.
118
@114 That's weaksauce, and you know it.
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pd… cites the a report of 18.3% of women "reported experiencing rape at some time in their lives" and "19%
experienced attempted or completed sexual assault since entering college" -- check the link for the citations of the studies.
The data is there if you want to look for it.
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pd… cites the a report of 18.3% of women "reported experiencing rape at some time in their lives" and "19%
experienced attempted or completed sexual assault since entering college" -- check the link for the citations of the studies.
The data is there if you want to look for it.
119
UNC seems much more concerned with prosecuting the victim than the rapist. All the people on this thread who are so terribly worried about the slander of a poor innocent alleged rapist who has NOT been publicly named by the victim are enabling misogyny. The chances that UNC would be held liable for not punishing the victim's "slander" of her alleged rapist are next to none. Show me one case where a University was held liable for a slander committed by a student.
120
119, Um, wow. You kind of just made up your own narrative for this story didn't you? None of what you just wrote is accurate. It's the student honor court censuring the female student not the college. She did not report a rape to the police, so there no investigation or evidence that a rape occurred. The man was not charged, tried, nor convicted.
Instead, she took her complaint to the student honor court, where, because of the total lack of evidence presented, the man was found not guilty. It is a he said she said situation, and one of the founding principles of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty. A student court should never have been allowed to hear this case. Even if there was indisputable evidence that a rape occurred, they can't put a rapist in jail. Hence he would be on the loose to rape again.
After not getting the verdict she wanted, and the student court found her accusations not believable, she proceeded to publicly state that her ex-boyfriend, who's still on campus raped her. If someone known by your family and friends to be your ex came into your community and accused an unnamed ex, who still lives in your community of child molestation, how would you respond? In this case, the man filed a complaint to the honor court against her. Since she admitted that she was publicly accusing him without any evidence to back her claim, she was found guilty.
Instead, she took her complaint to the student honor court, where, because of the total lack of evidence presented, the man was found not guilty. It is a he said she said situation, and one of the founding principles of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty. A student court should never have been allowed to hear this case. Even if there was indisputable evidence that a rape occurred, they can't put a rapist in jail. Hence he would be on the loose to rape again.
After not getting the verdict she wanted, and the student court found her accusations not believable, she proceeded to publicly state that her ex-boyfriend, who's still on campus raped her. If someone known by your family and friends to be your ex came into your community and accused an unnamed ex, who still lives in your community of child molestation, how would you respond? In this case, the man filed a complaint to the honor court against her. Since she admitted that she was publicly accusing him without any evidence to back her claim, she was found guilty.
122
Without any evidence?
You mean except for her memories, trauma and all of the circumstantial evidence one would expect to find following a crime.
Here, let me fix that for you:
She went to the honor court expecting to find students well trained in how to handle sexual assault cases and instead found:
a school who at best strongly-discouraged her from complaining in the first place
an honor court more interested in discrediting her than pursuing the truth
promises then lies from her supposed allies regarding how she would be treated in the future
a whole hot mess of people who can't even agree on whether they received a day or an hour of training on the school's (at the time nonexistent) sexual harassment policy
I would hesitate before glibly tossing out "after not getting the verdict she wanted" and instead try replacing it with "after being treated really poorly by a system that should have at the very least been impartial."
Then maybe decide if you believe she has the right to complain.
Since she admitted that she was publicly accusing him without any evidence to back her claim, she was found guilty.
Without any evidence?
You mean except for her memories, trauma and all of the circumstantial evidence one would expect to find following a crime.
Here, let me fix that for you:
She went to the honor court expecting to find students well trained in how to handle sexual assault cases and instead found:
a school who at best strongly-discouraged her from complaining in the first place
an honor court more interested in discrediting her than pursuing the truth
promises then lies from her supposed allies regarding how she would be treated in the future
a whole hot mess of people who can't even agree on whether they received a day or an hour of training on the school's (at the time nonexistent) sexual harassment policy
I would hesitate before glibly tossing out "after not getting the verdict she wanted" and instead try replacing it with "after being treated really poorly by a system that should have at the very least been impartial."
Then maybe decide if you believe she has the right to complain.
123
122, There was no evidence, just her claims. Unless you'very found a way to extract memories of others and play them back for a court, there's no way to prove her accusations. What circumstantial evidence was presented to the court?
124
"circumstantial evidence"
You'd think she'd have more than that after being raped by her long term boyfriend for so many years. You know, like 3rd party witnesses to the abuse which was going on for years apparently. So people's lives should be destroyed just on an accusation? How Taliban of you.
You'd think she'd have more than that after being raped by her long term boyfriend for so many years. You know, like 3rd party witnesses to the abuse which was going on for years apparently. So people's lives should be destroyed just on an accusation? How Taliban of you.
125
@21: You can't get a slander charge off of assumptions that "everybody on campus will know who she's talking about" because YOU CAN'T READ MINDS AND HAVE NO IDEA WHAT PEOPLE ON CAMPUS ARE THINKING.
Now stop white-knighting rapists, you sick fuck.
Now stop white-knighting rapists, you sick fuck.
127
@110
Sociopaths and psychopaths are born, and there is nothing to be done for that, but I don't think this represents the average rapist (but like you I don't have any sociological data).
What we do know is that rape is common, and it can't be all psychopaths doing all that raping. Somehow, people are getting the notion that if they are turned on they are owed sex, if the girl is drunk or showing cleavage, it's her own damn fault anyway.
When have guys putting up videos calling themselves the "Rape Crew" and bragging about exploits, laughing about rape victims, and frats picketing outside a sorority with signs that say "no means yes, yes means anal" and yes, as a matter of fact, it is necessary to tell men not to rape, not to put up with slut shaming and rape culture.
If for no other reason than it would actually help their cause of getting laid. My experience with casual sex in college was pretty awful. Pulled off condoms, surprise anal, being made fun of and harassed - if that's how ya'll want to have it you can just choke on your cortisol already
Sociopaths and psychopaths are born, and there is nothing to be done for that, but I don't think this represents the average rapist (but like you I don't have any sociological data).
What we do know is that rape is common, and it can't be all psychopaths doing all that raping. Somehow, people are getting the notion that if they are turned on they are owed sex, if the girl is drunk or showing cleavage, it's her own damn fault anyway.
When have guys putting up videos calling themselves the "Rape Crew" and bragging about exploits, laughing about rape victims, and frats picketing outside a sorority with signs that say "no means yes, yes means anal" and yes, as a matter of fact, it is necessary to tell men not to rape, not to put up with slut shaming and rape culture.
If for no other reason than it would actually help their cause of getting laid. My experience with casual sex in college was pretty awful. Pulled off condoms, surprise anal, being made fun of and harassed - if that's how ya'll want to have it you can just choke on your cortisol already
128
there are so many false rape accusers out there. the accused deserve to have privacy until a court of law and due process may convict such a person. men (and women) need to be protected from the significant number of false accusers out there. sorry, but that's the reality.
130
@129 I've seen that before. Besides the stats on that being questionable, the point still remains that many people's lives will be ruined by false accusers. MANY. There is no excuse to ruin people's lives without due process.
131
@Scratchmaster Joe: The "tell men not to rape" logic is BS, for the same reason that saying "swiper no swiping" hasn't stopped real-world theft.
On the other hand, the logic that women should devote the time and energy necessary to ninja their way out of rape is even more BS. Not only is it impractical when someone is drugged or the assailant is armed, but living in that state of fear is exhausting.
People should learn to speak up when their boundaries are crossed. People should learn to listen when their partners speak up. That's the best real-world solution you can expect to get.
False rape accusations: Most of the time they're used as character assassination, and the accuser doesn't want to see a courtroom where they'll have to present evidence. I'm not seeing much character assassination here, so much as people being upset at the university's system. Gambill is just one of many people upset with them, and one of the few willing to go public.
Overall: This is why I hate rape discussions. It's an accusation that the honor court is messed up, that the victim's rights (such as sealed testimony) were not respected, and that the university is now trying to intimidate her. These are the real issues. But because rape happens to be tangential to the story, everything else becomes forgotten as this becomes a one-issue discussion.
On the other hand, the logic that women should devote the time and energy necessary to ninja their way out of rape is even more BS. Not only is it impractical when someone is drugged or the assailant is armed, but living in that state of fear is exhausting.
People should learn to speak up when their boundaries are crossed. People should learn to listen when their partners speak up. That's the best real-world solution you can expect to get.
False rape accusations: Most of the time they're used as character assassination, and the accuser doesn't want to see a courtroom where they'll have to present evidence. I'm not seeing much character assassination here, so much as people being upset at the university's system. Gambill is just one of many people upset with them, and one of the few willing to go public.
Overall: This is why I hate rape discussions. It's an accusation that the honor court is messed up, that the victim's rights (such as sealed testimony) were not respected, and that the university is now trying to intimidate her. These are the real issues. But because rape happens to be tangential to the story, everything else becomes forgotten as this becomes a one-issue discussion.
133
Rob in Baltimore (and others): Taking a rape charge to the Honor Court was, in fact, procedure. At the time, there was an 'interim policy' while UNC got their shit together and wrote a real policy.
http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2012…
UNC has a full-fledged police department, complete with investigators and specialized teams. There are over 50 armed officers.
I have no idea what they do if they catch a rapist (or anyone committing a violent felony).
http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2012…
UNC has a full-fledged police department, complete with investigators and specialized teams. There are over 50 armed officers.
I have no idea what they do if they catch a rapist (or anyone committing a violent felony).
134
133, She did not report a rape to the UNC Police, or any other police department. Had she done so, the case would have been properly investigated, evidence gathered, real criminal charges filed if the evidence showed that a rape had happened, and a trial would have been held in a real court of law. A student honor court has absolutely no power to criminally convict or jail a rapist, and has no jurisdiction over a real court of law.
135
She apparently sought relief through the school rather than filing a police report. Gambill has not responded to ABC News' requests for comment.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/unc-student-ris…
There was no police investigation and no evidence that a rape occurred. It's a "he said-she said" situation. The student court found her accusations not believable due to the fact that she presented absolutely no evidence, and him not guilty.
137
Only the accuser, and the accused know. There is absolutely no evidence to back her accusations. One of the founding principles of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty.
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