Slog Comments
The Future of Gun Control
1
Just throwing this out there: has there been any legislation proposed that attempts to control ammunition rather than the guns themselves?
4
There are some metal parts in there, from the pin to the barrel. If the gun was made totally out of plastic, the barrel would had melted after a couple shots. The firing pin has to be metal for the ammo to react.
5
Am I bad for being amused by the story of the man in Texas who shot his girlfriend when both were drunk and playing quick draw this past weekend? I think the cops reported that she lay on the floor bleeding all night, but both she and he lied at first about what happened.
8
@4
"There are some metal parts in there, from the pin to the barrel."
Looks like right now they're focusing on the magazines.
The printed parts on the gun itself appear to be mostly for show.
But there will be a time in the future when the technology will allow metal pieces to be fashioned at home.
Not necessarily with the same "printing" tech shown there but with tech that can grind a block of metal into the pieces that you want.
"There are some metal parts in there, from the pin to the barrel."
Looks like right now they're focusing on the magazines.
The printed parts on the gun itself appear to be mostly for show.
But there will be a time in the future when the technology will allow metal pieces to be fashioned at home.
Not necessarily with the same "printing" tech shown there but with tech that can grind a block of metal into the pieces that you want.
10
@8
One can make the metal parts, pretty easily on a lathe. Rifling the barrel isn't that difficult. The Springs aren't that difficult to obtain or make given they have multiple uses. The firing pin is probably the most difficult to master, but it isn't that difficult.
The AR-15/M-4/M-16 has numerous plastic parts to being with, to lighten the assault rifle. Many Magazines are already clear plastic to see how many bullets are left in the magazine.
I don't really see this as a big deal, or a big scare compare to the 200 million firearms in the US, and one can acquire as much ammo as one can buy. (Ammo shells can be recycled and used again, so screw that regulation)
Grips, rails etc are already plastic to save weight.
One can make the metal parts, pretty easily on a lathe. Rifling the barrel isn't that difficult. The Springs aren't that difficult to obtain or make given they have multiple uses. The firing pin is probably the most difficult to master, but it isn't that difficult.
The AR-15/M-4/M-16 has numerous plastic parts to being with, to lighten the assault rifle. Many Magazines are already clear plastic to see how many bullets are left in the magazine.
I don't really see this as a big deal, or a big scare compare to the 200 million firearms in the US, and one can acquire as much ammo as one can buy. (Ammo shells can be recycled and used again, so screw that regulation)
Grips, rails etc are already plastic to save weight.
11
"Nothing in any gun control law can do anything about that."
Not true at all. If it were actually in some way taboo to own a gun, or to print a gun from a 3D printer, that taboo would do much to suppress gun manufacturing. That taboo can and should start with laws. If there are people who then want to print illegal guns with 3D printers they're going to have a much harder time doing it when the vast majority of people who could find out about it would then turn them in.
Laws help define and set social norms, and society itself then plays a huge role in curtailing illegal behavior. Doing nothing because of the feeling that it "won't do any good" is the only thing that doesn't do any good.
Not true at all. If it were actually in some way taboo to own a gun, or to print a gun from a 3D printer, that taboo would do much to suppress gun manufacturing. That taboo can and should start with laws. If there are people who then want to print illegal guns with 3D printers they're going to have a much harder time doing it when the vast majority of people who could find out about it would then turn them in.
Laws help define and set social norms, and society itself then plays a huge role in curtailing illegal behavior. Doing nothing because of the feeling that it "won't do any good" is the only thing that doesn't do any good.
12
@10
"One can make the metal parts, pretty easily on a lathe."
The limiting factor there is the skill to correctly operate the lathe and fashion the parts. That skill still takes time (often years) to acquire.
Eventually the automation will make that level of skill unnecessary.
Then someone who can't even spell "lathe" will be able to manufacture parts.
"One can make the metal parts, pretty easily on a lathe."
The limiting factor there is the skill to correctly operate the lathe and fashion the parts. That skill still takes time (often years) to acquire.
Eventually the automation will make that level of skill unnecessary.
Then someone who can't even spell "lathe" will be able to manufacture parts.
14
Ironically, I can imagine a future in which the monetary incentive for producing guns is removed by open source printing technology resulting in the downfall of gun-rights lobbies and increased gun control.
15
@12
What scares me about these bozos in the video, (I heard about them trying to buy a 3D a couple months ago) isn't their expertise or lack of expertise, it is their attitude. Working with a 3D pattern or a lathe, just means have already have a ready made pattern or blueprints at hand. I assume that the AR-15 is 90 percent or more made out of stamped parts, both metal and plastic.
I don't think they made the drum magazine out of a 3D printer, given the need of metal springs, some of the complexities of feeding the ammo to the chamber without jamming.
Gun regulations can do a couple things to stymied these bozos. No#1 have rifle barrels made out of material that make it inoperable after firing a couple shots. These bozos are too afraid of firing a gun made out of a 3D printer. Banana Clips or 30 bullet magazine need metal springs to feed the bullets in the chamber properly, so I 3D printer 30 bullet clips are more risky and not the best quality control.
What scares me about these bozos in the video, (I heard about them trying to buy a 3D a couple months ago) isn't their expertise or lack of expertise, it is their attitude. Working with a 3D pattern or a lathe, just means have already have a ready made pattern or blueprints at hand. I assume that the AR-15 is 90 percent or more made out of stamped parts, both metal and plastic.
I don't think they made the drum magazine out of a 3D printer, given the need of metal springs, some of the complexities of feeding the ammo to the chamber without jamming.
Gun regulations can do a couple things to stymied these bozos. No#1 have rifle barrels made out of material that make it inoperable after firing a couple shots. These bozos are too afraid of firing a gun made out of a 3D printer. Banana Clips or 30 bullet magazine need metal springs to feed the bullets in the chamber properly, so I 3D printer 30 bullet clips are more risky and not the best quality control.
16
You can make things illegal, but you can also make them impractical.
Here you could make possession of the large capacity mag illegal (which it generally is) and yes, you could print one, but if you are found in possession then you get charged. Will it stop some crazed rampage? No. But say that person gets pulled over for drunk driving and searched, or a domestic is called to the house, or they start bragging and get their asses searched with a warrant. Still illegal, still a crime whether you bought or printed it.
Also, he just shot off more than $500 of ammo there, assuming it's still chambered for NATO .223. Ammo taxes could easily make that little stunt $1000, $2000, etc. and volume sales restrictions could make it a pain in the ass to accumulate that much, taking time in which say, cooler heads might prevail.
Here you could make possession of the large capacity mag illegal (which it generally is) and yes, you could print one, but if you are found in possession then you get charged. Will it stop some crazed rampage? No. But say that person gets pulled over for drunk driving and searched, or a domestic is called to the house, or they start bragging and get their asses searched with a warrant. Still illegal, still a crime whether you bought or printed it.
Also, he just shot off more than $500 of ammo there, assuming it's still chambered for NATO .223. Ammo taxes could easily make that little stunt $1000, $2000, etc. and volume sales restrictions could make it a pain in the ass to accumulate that much, taking time in which say, cooler heads might prevail.
17
The only part in that gun that is printed is the receiver. (Although they have 'printed' parts of magazines, the 100rd magazines in the video were not printed.) You can buy an 80% aluminum lower which can be completed on a drill press with fairly low skill involved - total cost, and skill level is less than buying/operating a 3d printer. (Much easier with a milling machine, but certainly possible with a drill press and minimal other tools).
Saying you can 'print' a gun because you can print the receiver is like saying you can 'print' a car because you can print the steering wheel.
Incidentally, in the case of the AR15, changing the serial numbered part from the lower to the upper would effectively make it impossible to 'print' your own as the upper needs to be made out of metal. Obviously it is a little late to make that change now!
Also, while it is perfectly legal to build a legal (you can't, for example, build a new machinegun without using pre '86 components) firearm for your own use, you can not produce them for sale. At what point you can sell a firearm that you made is somewhat unclear. The law says that you can't make them with the intent to sell, but once you have made a firearm, without the intent to sell, as far as I know there are no restrictions on then selling it....
Saying you can 'print' a gun because you can print the receiver is like saying you can 'print' a car because you can print the steering wheel.
Incidentally, in the case of the AR15, changing the serial numbered part from the lower to the upper would effectively make it impossible to 'print' your own as the upper needs to be made out of metal. Obviously it is a little late to make that change now!
Also, while it is perfectly legal to build a legal (you can't, for example, build a new machinegun without using pre '86 components) firearm for your own use, you can not produce them for sale. At what point you can sell a firearm that you made is somewhat unclear. The law says that you can't make them with the intent to sell, but once you have made a firearm, without the intent to sell, as far as I know there are no restrictions on then selling it....
18
The NRA would never allow a full 3D printed gun to be allowed to the public.
How are we not getting this? The NRA is a gun SELLERS lobby. They defend their right to make lots of money, they don't give two fucks about your 2nd Amendment right. So when these printable guns cause them to lose money, I imagine they'll lobby pretty fucking hard against your 2nd Amendment right to printable guns.
That's how it works.
How are we not getting this? The NRA is a gun SELLERS lobby. They defend their right to make lots of money, they don't give two fucks about your 2nd Amendment right. So when these printable guns cause them to lose money, I imagine they'll lobby pretty fucking hard against your 2nd Amendment right to printable guns.
That's how it works.
19
@15, Actually, almost none of the parts in an AR15 are stamped. An AR15 is basically made up of a barrel (machined steel), upper receiver (machined aluminum), lower receiver (someone has actually made one out of wood), bolt carrier/bolt (machined steel - has to be fairly high quality steel to hold up), receiver extension (typically machined aluminum, you could make this part out of plastic/wood), buffer (steel), trigger group (could probably print this). Then there are a bunch of little parts, springs and so on.
Out of all the parts, assuming you have a reasonable machineshop, the hardest to make would be the bolt carrier and bolt. Even with advances in 3d metal-based printing, it is unlikely that you'll be able to print those parts, assuming your goal is 600+ rounds, in any of our lifetimes. (Same goes for the barrel)
Out of all the parts, assuming you have a reasonable machineshop, the hardest to make would be the bolt carrier and bolt. Even with advances in 3d metal-based printing, it is unlikely that you'll be able to print those parts, assuming your goal is 600+ rounds, in any of our lifetimes. (Same goes for the barrel)
20
All this 3D printing shit is some dorks in their mom's basement rushing to get their 15 minutes of fame.
End of distraction.
End of distraction.
22
@16: Yes, because the one thing we need to solve gun violence is people with guns having less training and experience, and getting less regular practice.
23
"They could restrict sales of 3D printers..."
No they couldn't. There are 3D printers that can print 3D printers.
No they couldn't. There are 3D printers that can print 3D printers.
24
Its not about the guns or mags or ammo people, its about the crazy people, people...
Ban crazy people and leave the law abiding citizens alone. Stop worrying about the technology.
Ban crazy people and leave the law abiding citizens alone. Stop worrying about the technology.
25
I own literally tens of thousands of dollars of machine tools, and have been working with them for 30 years. I could probably make my own gun- the second or third one might even work- but it would take me a long time, even with my experience, and would inevitably cost me much more than buying one at Walmart.
Assuming you were starting from scratch, with no experience of metallurgy, heat treating, milling, turning, and precision measurement, but just a brand new pile or a hundred grand or so of 3D printer and machine tools, in a few months to a year you might be able to make a working AR-15 entirely from scratch.
There is no credible threat that people will make semi-automatic carbines in their basements. A few people know how, and make good money as gunsmiths, or with day jobs making 787's. But at home, by nimnuts- not for 30 years or more.
And ammo is NOT easy to make at home- its easy to reload factory made parts, with factory made powder and primers- but from scratch- forget it.
Anarchists from Portland will not be out there mining their own saltpeter, stamping their own shell casings from the brass they refined over their barbecues.
It would be like saying sparkplugs are easy to make at home.
The arms industry is a huge interlocking network of mining, refining, stamping, machining, and other capital intensive factories. Its a giant part of our economy, and its not replicable on a home level.
Assuming you were starting from scratch, with no experience of metallurgy, heat treating, milling, turning, and precision measurement, but just a brand new pile or a hundred grand or so of 3D printer and machine tools, in a few months to a year you might be able to make a working AR-15 entirely from scratch.
There is no credible threat that people will make semi-automatic carbines in their basements. A few people know how, and make good money as gunsmiths, or with day jobs making 787's. But at home, by nimnuts- not for 30 years or more.
And ammo is NOT easy to make at home- its easy to reload factory made parts, with factory made powder and primers- but from scratch- forget it.
Anarchists from Portland will not be out there mining their own saltpeter, stamping their own shell casings from the brass they refined over their barbecues.
It would be like saying sparkplugs are easy to make at home.
The arms industry is a huge interlocking network of mining, refining, stamping, machining, and other capital intensive factories. Its a giant part of our economy, and its not replicable on a home level.
26
In video games the 'shoot 'em up' games are perhaps the most popular. Even though aaaanything is possible in a video game platform, way way beyond guns killing people and critters, etc.
I hope the same doesn't happen w/ 3D printers. That 3D printing some day doesn't become synonymous with 3D printed guns. Because so, so much more can be done with 3D printers
But our civilization (at least in the US) presently is obsessed with violence, and we've got violence on our minds all the goddamn time, which is the source of this sick gun craze.. that and paranoia thanks to to conspiracy theories that have taken this country by storm
So, I think we've got to fight back with much cooler ideas for 3D printing and other double-edged sword technologies. Fight fear with more positive, creative fun ideas. Otherwise fear and violence could just rip this country apart. The more guns sitting around, the more likely Sandy Hooks will happen, the more likely nobody will want to send their kids to school, or even want to be in public themselves anymore. And that isn't a society anybody wants to live in.. I'm a little woozy today but hopefully that makes sense.
GUNS GUNS GUNS, so sick of hearing from co-workers, friends, random people at bars, etc about why we need to stock up on guns
I hope the same doesn't happen w/ 3D printers. That 3D printing some day doesn't become synonymous with 3D printed guns. Because so, so much more can be done with 3D printers
But our civilization (at least in the US) presently is obsessed with violence, and we've got violence on our minds all the goddamn time, which is the source of this sick gun craze.. that and paranoia thanks to to conspiracy theories that have taken this country by storm
So, I think we've got to fight back with much cooler ideas for 3D printing and other double-edged sword technologies. Fight fear with more positive, creative fun ideas. Otherwise fear and violence could just rip this country apart. The more guns sitting around, the more likely Sandy Hooks will happen, the more likely nobody will want to send their kids to school, or even want to be in public themselves anymore. And that isn't a society anybody wants to live in.. I'm a little woozy today but hopefully that makes sense.
GUNS GUNS GUNS, so sick of hearing from co-workers, friends, random people at bars, etc about why we need to stock up on guns
27
Much scarier would be if they successfully made a frame for a cheap 9mm handgun such as a Markarov. All the other parts can be bought online as kits and since they aren't considered a "gun" aren't subject to any kind of background check.
This would be MUCH more useful to criminals than an AR15 lower receiver, which isn't a really practical weapon for a stick up man or gangbanger.
This would be MUCH more useful to criminals than an AR15 lower receiver, which isn't a really practical weapon for a stick up man or gangbanger.
28
@18,
What will tickle me pink is if that law requires widespread registration and licensing (including, egads, a national database). How else would the government be able to tell the difference between a gun purchased legally and one "printed" illegally?
What will tickle me pink is if that law requires widespread registration and licensing (including, egads, a national database). How else would the government be able to tell the difference between a gun purchased legally and one "printed" illegally?
29
The manufacturing of certain gun parts is already restricted, and there are further restrictions concerning making parts for weapons that aren't registered to you—it doesn't seem like a stretch to include this under that umbrella. If the one or two people that own and can operate one of these printers decides to sell AR-15 parts, they should be treated as just another brand.
Any of us are allowed to buy a $100,000 color copier if we like, but the law is very clear what materials can and cannot be printed on it (i.e. money).
Any of us are allowed to buy a $100,000 color copier if we like, but the law is very clear what materials can and cannot be printed on it (i.e. money).
30
The reason this video is interesting is not that they are claiming the whole gun is 3d-printed, but because they 3d-printed the specific part which is regulated. All the other parts can be easily acquired without any restrictions, but the lower receiver is the part which qualifies it as a firearm and subjects it to background checks and dealer licensing. The analogy to 3d-printing the steering wheel of the car misses the entire point.
31
If we had even ONE major mass murder from a 3D printed lower that was assembled with mail order parts, a very easy fix would be to just require serial numbers background checks on uppers, or on bolt assemblies.
There would be grumbling, certainly, but it wouldnt stop any "law abiding citizen" from repairing a damaged AR.
the fact is, most criminals are nowhere near that smart, or that patient. they mostly buy guns that already work, and have enough trouble hitting anything with those.
Plus, most criminals want a gun that they have seen in a movie, not a plastic toy they have to assemble themselves like a cracker jack prize. Its like expecting aspiring rappers and pimps in Las Vegas to have their shootouts while driving kit cars made from VW engines and fiberglas bodies.
There would be grumbling, certainly, but it wouldnt stop any "law abiding citizen" from repairing a damaged AR.
the fact is, most criminals are nowhere near that smart, or that patient. they mostly buy guns that already work, and have enough trouble hitting anything with those.
Plus, most criminals want a gun that they have seen in a movie, not a plastic toy they have to assemble themselves like a cracker jack prize. Its like expecting aspiring rappers and pimps in Las Vegas to have their shootouts while driving kit cars made from VW engines and fiberglas bodies.
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