Slog Comments
My Reaction to the New Pope
1
It appears that this guy sided with the Junta during Argentina's "dirty war," which was not really a war. Rather, it was the government abducting, torturing, and killing nonviolent dissidents after the small guerrilla groups had already been eliminated. There were some church figures who opposed the regime and were killed, but this guy and the heirarchy sided with those in power. The Argentine church as since apologized for its actions. Unlike Ratzinger on his Hitler Youth days, this guy can not use the defense that he was young and powerless at the time. (Priests helped convince soldiers that they were doing the "Christian" thing by throwing live, drugged prisoners into the ocean from planes. They did not kill pregnant women--until they gave birth. Then they adopted out the babies to "deserving" and "moral" families--often the very people engaged in killing people like the children's parents!)
2
" And what I'm seeing is predictably retrograde: opposes same-sex marriage, adoptions by gay people. Can't assume he's any better on birth control, abortion, the ordination of women, allowing priests to marry, masturbation, etc., etc."
He appears to be even worse than that.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/…
He appears to be even worse than that.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/…
3
It matters not about this Pope. Gay people the world over are no longer afraid. Gay people are standing up and hitting back, hard.
4
I got to say, if they're going to keep electing Popes whose views drive away youngsters from the Church of their parents, I'm okay with that.
5
@1 He didnt' just side with the junta, he was an active participant in their crimes:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/…
6
Well considering we'd have to start renumbering them at 1, yes, I suppose it will be a while.
The new Pope has named himself Francis. Everyone assumes this is for Francis of Assisi but it might be for Francis Xavier. Pope F has a history of being humble and no-nonsense, like F of A—he sold his limo and took the bus to work—so maybe he's saying that he aspires to be a humble, reformist Pope.
Fingers crossed and pray he'll be a good one, and if you don't pray, just wish!
The new Pope has named himself Francis. Everyone assumes this is for Francis of Assisi but it might be for Francis Xavier. Pope F has a history of being humble and no-nonsense, like F of A—he sold his limo and took the bus to work—so maybe he's saying that he aspires to be a humble, reformist Pope.
Fingers crossed and pray he'll be a good one, and if you don't pray, just wish!
7
He's the first pope from a country with marriage equality.
Here's what he had to say, summarized: This is God's battle in which the survival of the family is at stake, and marriage equality is the work of the Father of Lies.
http://tn.com.ar/politica/la-carta-compl…
The Catholic Church is going to continue to shrink and shrink.
Here's what he had to say, summarized: This is God's battle in which the survival of the family is at stake, and marriage equality is the work of the Father of Lies.
http://tn.com.ar/politica/la-carta-compl…
The Catholic Church is going to continue to shrink and shrink.
8
Given his age--76--and his doctrinal conservatism, this will likely be another placeholder Pope. So Dan is correct in seeing no major changes (very likely) coming from Francis.
On the other hand, this guy does live humbly and simply, and he has a pretty good track-record regarding income inequality and poverty. If we set aside the sexual hot-button issues like ordination of women, gay marriage, allowing Priests to marry--then he might turn out to be not such a bad guy.
Plus his appearance, voice, and manner seem low-key and kindly, without the creepy vibe of Benny. So I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and adopt a wait-and-see posture, but I recognize that cynicism and snark are also valid responses, and likely more realistic.
On the other hand, this guy does live humbly and simply, and he has a pretty good track-record regarding income inequality and poverty. If we set aside the sexual hot-button issues like ordination of women, gay marriage, allowing Priests to marry--then he might turn out to be not such a bad guy.
Plus his appearance, voice, and manner seem low-key and kindly, without the creepy vibe of Benny. So I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and adopt a wait-and-see posture, but I recognize that cynicism and snark are also valid responses, and likely more realistic.
9
I've heard two good things about him:
1) He rides the bus.
2) He tells priests they should be supportive of single unwed moms.
I've heard a few bad things about him, like he was probably aware of civilian massacres under the Junta and quietly looked the other way.
Well, what's a pope without a fascist past?
1) He rides the bus.
2) He tells priests they should be supportive of single unwed moms.
I've heard a few bad things about him, like he was probably aware of civilian massacres under the Junta and quietly looked the other way.
Well, what's a pope without a fascist past?
10
When I read the title of your post I expected to find the pope song, but this is more eloquent.
All I know about the guy is what commenters are saying on Slog, and that junta stuff sounds horrifying. It seems like we're getting what the Catholic plutocracy wants - a whole lot more of the same. If the Catholic Church needed a PR makeover, this is the opposite of the solution.
Dear Catholics, if Jesus was faced with the nature and the actions of the Catholic Church, all the corruption and the killings, done by His self-appointed spokespersons, WWJD?
All I know about the guy is what commenters are saying on Slog, and that junta stuff sounds horrifying. It seems like we're getting what the Catholic plutocracy wants - a whole lot more of the same. If the Catholic Church needed a PR makeover, this is the opposite of the solution.
Dear Catholics, if Jesus was faced with the nature and the actions of the Catholic Church, all the corruption and the killings, done by His self-appointed spokespersons, WWJD?
11
@4 - therein lies the way forward.
I wonder how much the RCC hierarchy believes they must out-reactionary the talibangelicals who are stealing their parishoners in order to stop the bleeding.
Previously - perhaps chastened by their losses at the hands of Galileo - the church wisely sidestepped a direct confrontation with Evolution. However, they seem intent on doubling down with other changes and will hurt themselves most with their reactionary stances.
I wonder how much the RCC hierarchy believes they must out-reactionary the talibangelicals who are stealing their parishoners in order to stop the bleeding.
Previously - perhaps chastened by their losses at the hands of Galileo - the church wisely sidestepped a direct confrontation with Evolution. However, they seem intent on doubling down with other changes and will hurt themselves most with their reactionary stances.
12
@9 They always trade the church's safety for innocent people. The church traded it's silence on the holocaust for a deal with Mussolini to make the Vatican sovereign. But the Vatican had signed off on Mussolini's fascist party anyway, before. And it was the Italian fascists that Hitler modeled Naziism after.
13
He does have a record of social justice and caring for the poor, well I guess Benedict did as well so at least there something positive.
14
I wonder how far away we are from seeing a new American Catholic Church arise, totally separate from the RCC? At the rate they are going, Rome will be totally irrelevant within 50 years. The only thing holding them together now is their vast financial holdings.
15
It's almost as if the Monty Python sketch "The Bishop" had him become Pope.
Beware the Secret Papal Police.
Beware the Secret Papal Police.
16
Meanwhile, in Illinois...
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-…
"One House Democrat I talked with last week wants to vote for gay marriage, but his strongly Catholic wife is absolutely, completely dead set against it. Sometimes, these things happen."
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-…
17
Strange how when you have an bunch of atheist buttfucking liberals all they can think about is the Catholic Pope?
19
@14 actually Argentina is strongly Roman Catholic. Catholics down here usually refer to themselves as Roman Catholic Apostolic. It's also within the constitution that the federal government follows roman catholic faith, and to be able to be President you had to be catholic (up until 1994).
20
@8
You wrote " If we set aside the sexual hot-button issues like ordination of women, gay marriage, allowing Priests to marry--then he might turn out to be not such a bad guy."
Not gonna lash out, but listen to your language here - "sexual hot-button issues." What's sexual about ordination? And certainly marriage is mostly about other things too. Why file gay marriage and civil rights involving women under sex?
You might argue that the difference between "sexual" and "civil rights" (or whatever other sense you intended) in your sentence is semantics, but it's not. The fact that this is the expression to which you default is the product of a broader social pathology that as objective people we need to be aware of.
oh and go Atheism! Get out there and reproduce!
You wrote " If we set aside the sexual hot-button issues like ordination of women, gay marriage, allowing Priests to marry--then he might turn out to be not such a bad guy."
Not gonna lash out, but listen to your language here - "sexual hot-button issues." What's sexual about ordination? And certainly marriage is mostly about other things too. Why file gay marriage and civil rights involving women under sex?
You might argue that the difference between "sexual" and "civil rights" (or whatever other sense you intended) in your sentence is semantics, but it's not. The fact that this is the expression to which you default is the product of a broader social pathology that as objective people we need to be aware of.
oh and go Atheism! Get out there and reproduce!
21
On the other hand, he's spoken out vociferously against global poverty and neoliberalism in particular. During Argentina's financial crisis, he spoke about the need to preserve and defend the social safety net over the need to repay debts (which the banking class certainly does not want anyone of influence saying). FWIW, the previous Pope voiced many of the same concerns, but was largely shut down by his ostensible "allies" on the right here. The new one, if anything, will be even more outspoken.
He's been willing to get down in the trenches when it comes to helping the poor and the sick, including those with HIV. Yes, he's on the wrong side of marriage rights, and there's probably more to be learned about how fine a line he had to walk back in the '70s and '80s, but there's a lot of good here as well as bad.
Physician, heal thyself!
He's been willing to get down in the trenches when it comes to helping the poor and the sick, including those with HIV. Yes, he's on the wrong side of marriage rights, and there's probably more to be learned about how fine a line he had to walk back in the '70s and '80s, but there's a lot of good here as well as bad.
Strange how when you have a celibate priesthood all they can think about is sex?
Physician, heal thyself!
22
Here's his Guardian bio:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interact…
He supports the poor. He brought the hammer down on retrograde priests who tried to deny the sacraments to unwed mothers or who said that condoms were wrong to prevent disease. He lives simply. And he's a Jesuit, and Jesuits have a reputation as the freethinkers in the Catholic church.
Is he going to suddenly support gay marriage? No. Married/women priests? Probably not. But I think for those of us who would like the Catholic church to come around, perhaps moving the FOCUS of "what it is to be Catholic" away from sexual issues and putting it squarely on the social Gospel is the likeliest path to longer-term reform. It would be wonderful just to have the priests in the pulpit telling their flock to minister to the poor rather than to protest abortion clinics.
In short, out of the Cardinals in that conclave, he's as good a pick as one could expect. And you never know. John XXIII was supposed to be a conservative when they elected him, too.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interact…
He supports the poor. He brought the hammer down on retrograde priests who tried to deny the sacraments to unwed mothers or who said that condoms were wrong to prevent disease. He lives simply. And he's a Jesuit, and Jesuits have a reputation as the freethinkers in the Catholic church.
Is he going to suddenly support gay marriage? No. Married/women priests? Probably not. But I think for those of us who would like the Catholic church to come around, perhaps moving the FOCUS of "what it is to be Catholic" away from sexual issues and putting it squarely on the social Gospel is the likeliest path to longer-term reform. It would be wonderful just to have the priests in the pulpit telling their flock to minister to the poor rather than to protest abortion clinics.
In short, out of the Cardinals in that conclave, he's as good a pick as one could expect. And you never know. John XXIII was supposed to be a conservative when they elected him, too.
23
@20. Fair enough. "Sexual hot-button issues" was in fact lazy verbal shorthand on my part, anachronistic at least as it regards civil marriage equality for same-sex couples.
But if we toss in abortion and contraception to my initial list, I think it is fair to observe that there's a sexual component to all of those issues, and in that sense there's a common thread tying them together.
But it was still old-school of me to use the phrase 'sexual hot-button issues'--that's a term more appropriate to a couple decades ago, and does not reflect modern standard usage.
But if we toss in abortion and contraception to my initial list, I think it is fair to observe that there's a sexual component to all of those issues, and in that sense there's a common thread tying them together.
But it was still old-school of me to use the phrase 'sexual hot-button issues'--that's a term more appropriate to a couple decades ago, and does not reflect modern standard usage.
24
Wonkette's rather more balanced view of things.
Frankly, a Pope that was all in favor of contraception and same-sex marriage was never in the cards. This guy seems pretty good on a lot of other things. If you're not completely obsessed with sex, then you'll probably see this guy as an improvement.
Frankly, a Pope that was all in favor of contraception and same-sex marriage was never in the cards. This guy seems pretty good on a lot of other things. If you're not completely obsessed with sex, then you'll probably see this guy as an improvement.
25
@21 Please explain who these allies were and what you mean by shutting down a pope. Do you mean American bishops' focus on sex?
26
Another Pope, another cover-up. Only the naive don't understand that Pope Nazi only stepped down after he secured his successor. No surprise that New Pope has a fascist pedigree also. There is a prophesy that this is the last Pope. Now there's something worth praying for.
27
@21 Benedict actually had a fairly major statement on economic and social justice in his Caritas in Veritate encyclical. George Weigel, that noted conservative opponent of "cafeteria Catholicism" actually advised taking red and gold pens (Warning: Link goes to an obscene publication) to the encyclical, to better dismiss those parts that the Pope couldn't have written himself.
The fact of the matter is that the Catholic Church teaches a lot of stuff that wouldn't win it many GOP admirers. In many ways, it's to the left of the Democratic Party, advocating things that the President wouldn't touch with a bargepole.
That many liberals are unaware of this only goes to show the extent to which conservatives in this country have co-opted the Church and allowed sexual politics to subsume pretty much everything else.
In particular, I think many here might be surprised by the Vatican's stances on climate change, the social safety net, rights of workers, care for the poor and indigent, etc. etc.
The fact of the matter is that the Catholic Church teaches a lot of stuff that wouldn't win it many GOP admirers. In many ways, it's to the left of the Democratic Party, advocating things that the President wouldn't touch with a bargepole.
That many liberals are unaware of this only goes to show the extent to which conservatives in this country have co-opted the Church and allowed sexual politics to subsume pretty much everything else.
In particular, I think many here might be surprised by the Vatican's stances on climate change, the social safety net, rights of workers, care for the poor and indigent, etc. etc.
28
Back in the 70's, when I was an idealistic teen and a devout Catholic, I remember the church putting a lot of emphasis on activism and social justice.
That all went away with John Paul II. For the next 30+ years, I knew what the church was against (women priests, married priests, gays, gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia, etc), but I no longer had any idea of what it was actually for. It had a long list of "Thou shalt nots," but I never heard anybody in power say "Thou shalt....."
Maybe this guy is the one to change that. Maybe, as several sloggers have suggested, his stress on trying to eliminate income inequality, and his tolerance of single motherhood, will lead to a new, more positive direction in the church.
But, frankly, I'm long past caring what the RCC does.
That all went away with John Paul II. For the next 30+ years, I knew what the church was against (women priests, married priests, gays, gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia, etc), but I no longer had any idea of what it was actually for. It had a long list of "Thou shalt nots," but I never heard anybody in power say "Thou shalt....."
Maybe this guy is the one to change that. Maybe, as several sloggers have suggested, his stress on trying to eliminate income inequality, and his tolerance of single motherhood, will lead to a new, more positive direction in the church.
But, frankly, I'm long past caring what the RCC does.
29
@5 -- Caution with that claim. The Guardian notes today:
One of our reporters is examining the claims made by Verbitsky in his book. It appears that the island was owned by a senior Buenos Aires Catholic official, not Bergoglio, and visited by priests in the diocese. The Guardian has not seen any evidence linking Bergoglio to the hiding of prisoners on the island. We will publish a more detailed report as soon as possible.
30
@PontifexFalsum would have had several things to say about this on Twitter. But Our account has been suspended yet again by the Catholic Thought Police and We are weary of efforts to get it reinstated, as a non-famous mortal with no time, shit out of luck.
A small lonely cry for a future where free speech truly exists and atheist humor is given preference by Big Internet over whining Catholics. And for a real world where the Pope no longer matters. Oh well. At least SLOG doesn't ban anyone for calling out the Pope on his shit.
A small lonely cry for a future where free speech truly exists and atheist humor is given preference by Big Internet over whining Catholics. And for a real world where the Pope no longer matters. Oh well. At least SLOG doesn't ban anyone for calling out the Pope on his shit.
31
I don't know why any of this is surprising. Of course they chose a homophobic, anti-woman, anti-sex pope. Is there any other kind?
32
i but he asked god to forgive him for his actions/inactions during the junta. and god did, because that's what god does.
so who are you to judge him now?
so who are you to judge him now?
34
This choice will allow the Catholic Church to limp along for decades more, interfering with progress as it has for centuries. I was hoping they'd elect Cardinal Peter Turkson and thereby alienate every rational person in the world.
35
32: the rule against judging others doesn't apply to atheists. We can actually judge people for their actions an are not required to forget all the things they are "sorry" for.
36
Papists here defending past and future popes on poverty. Sheesh. (1) Vatican is rich, rich, rich even though many diocese are not. (2) By opposing contraception in developing economies, Catholic church (not just in US but worldwide) has condemned hundreds of millions to poverty.
They pay lip service to social justice and many nuns & priests are devoted to the poor, but the Church's collective actions create and perpetuate poverty on a staggering scale.
They pay lip service to social justice and many nuns & priests are devoted to the poor, but the Church's collective actions create and perpetuate poverty on a staggering scale.
37
Right arm #20. Fwiw I get that it's better that he's not a disaster on all levels; maybe pretty decent in some ways. But man I wish he was flexible on the birth control issue - such a public health no-brainer.
39
The Catholic Church is growing in the Southern Hemisphere - so electing a South American was a logical step. But their priorities are not necessarily ours - I don't expect the Church to suddenly get progressive. As far as justice for the poor - the South Americans had a Marxist take on theology some 30 or so years ago. The social justice teachings are welcome-but don't expect much else.
40
@27 You think the Vatican's not in charge? Sure, they talk a good game, but fighting poverty comes a distant second. See here:
http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/m…
http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/m…
41
One of my friends and colleagues is a nun. I asked her two weeks ago about what would happen if her "worst case scenario"--an ultra-conservative, healthy young man-- becomes the next pope and she said her order has talked about becoming non-canonical under those circumstances.
When you are losing the religious orders, you are in trouble. (Not that I mind, but you'd think that the Church would.)
When you are losing the religious orders, you are in trouble. (Not that I mind, but you'd think that the Church would.)
42
"Well, of course, no one does theater better than the Italians. And so the whole dramatic aspect of St. Peter's and the balcony and all those velvet curtains parting and all that, I mean, no one can do it better, you know, if you want drama. And so it makes good television. "--MATTHEW FOX, PRIEST, THEOLOGIAN, AND AUTHOR
You know who else goes great drama and theatrics (with fancy curtains)? Gay men. Coincidence??
"Well, of course, no one does theater better than the Italians. And so the whole dramatic aspect of St. Peter's and the balcony and all those velvet curtains parting and all that, I mean, no one can do it better, you know, if you want drama. And so it makes good television. "--MATTHEW FOX, PRIEST, THEOLOGIAN, AND AUTHOR
You know who else goes great drama and theatrics (with fancy curtains)? Gay men. Coincidence??
43
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! for at least mentioning John XXIII! I confess that I am a Protestant Christian and perhaps that colors my world, but in my 66 years I have yet to see any pope who measures up to John XXIII in spirituality, faithfulness, etc. What I have seen is a RCC intent on destroying this man's great legacy to the Church and one that seems to refuse to acknowledge that he ever lived! Among all the networks, among all the commentators and "experts" (priests and bishops included), I did not hear one person mention John XXIII!!! So... Thank you, Dan, for remembering him in your post. At least there are two of us who remember him and a path to reform on which he attempted to guide the RCC.
44
Bergoglio becomes the 3rd pope in a row to be a strong supporter of "Communion and Liberation." This organization is strong supporter, in turn, of that pillar of family values, Silvio "I swear I didn't know the prostitute was under 18" Berlusconi.
45
I predicted that they would elect an elderly, white, conservative, celibate European male.
I was soooo close!
He sounds like the just the man to drag the Catholic church kicking and screaming into the early 20th century (no, not a typo!)
He's not going to be too popular in the UK when they realise that he's spoken out in favour of returning the Malvinas (Falkland) islands to Argentina.
I was soooo close!
He sounds like the just the man to drag the Catholic church kicking and screaming into the early 20th century (no, not a typo!)
He's not going to be too popular in the UK when they realise that he's spoken out in favour of returning the Malvinas (Falkland) islands to Argentina.
46
I am so pissed off that my dreamt of an asteroid crashing into the Vatican at the very moment white smoke appeared did not happen. God is so lazy.
47
UPDATE -- The Guardian today retracts the earlier claim as follows:
... Hugh O'Shaughnessy's original article, published in 2011, wrongly suggested that Argentinian journalist Horacio Verbitsky claimed that Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio connived with the Argentinian navy to hide political prisoners ...
48
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