Slog Comments
SL Letter of the Day: One Word
1
LW: Lying about one's age is kinda not cool, but mostly as a maturity issue. It's not on par with your former boyfriend's malfeasance.
Learn to live with the little white lies.
Learn to live with the little white lies.
2
I put lying about age in a different category than other kinds of lies, ESPECIALLY if you met on the internet or something. Fact is, a lot of people rule anyone over a certain age out of their dating pool- I imagine a lot of people over that certain age start realizing this, realizing that it's unfair, and lying about it.
The trick to getting someone who's a good person is to figure out where their lies are coming from and whether that justifies their lies or not. For example, if they're lying and saying you look fine when you don't but there's nothing you can do about it, they're lying to be considerate to your feelings. Lying to your partner about embezzling, however, is lying because you want to stay in the relationship at the cost of your partner's job.
The trick to getting someone who's a good person is to figure out where their lies are coming from and whether that justifies their lies or not. For example, if they're lying and saying you look fine when you don't but there's nothing you can do about it, they're lying to be considerate to your feelings. Lying to your partner about embezzling, however, is lying because you want to stay in the relationship at the cost of your partner's job.
3
I get the connection - two different items about people who are clueless about the dicks around them.
The lesbians are funnier.
The lesbians are funnier.
4
There's lies and then there's lies. The guy lied about one of the most basic and defining aspects of his life.
6
The video felt scripted. The what do gay guys think of vaginas seemed legit. Actual surprise registered on the men's faces. But who knows.
8
Ageism causes Gay men to lie about their age. Gay men and Str8 women fear growing old and undesirable over illness and poverty. No Gay guy lies about his bank account balance.
9
Expecting 100% truthfulness is one thing, but wanting to be with someone who isn't a thief and doesn't misrepresent themselves seems like a very low bar to clear. LW can do better.
12
Oh right, like you never told a lie in your life? Please.
We all lie. It is a matter of distinguishing between an acceptable lie and an unacceptable lie.
Stealing from work and stashing stolen property in your house and jeopardizing your livelihood? Definitely unacceptable! Way deep into unacceptable territory.
Lying about your age... meh. Sure, it would have been better if he'd told the truth, but not exactly a capitol offense. A lie like that would cause me to be a bit more cautious around him, and he'd have to do a bit of work to rebuild the sense of trust you desire, but I wouldn't dump an otherwise great guy over that one offense alone.
We all lie. It is a matter of distinguishing between an acceptable lie and an unacceptable lie.
Stealing from work and stashing stolen property in your house and jeopardizing your livelihood? Definitely unacceptable! Way deep into unacceptable territory.
Lying about your age... meh. Sure, it would have been better if he'd told the truth, but not exactly a capitol offense. A lie like that would cause me to be a bit more cautious around him, and he'd have to do a bit of work to rebuild the sense of trust you desire, but I wouldn't dump an otherwise great guy over that one offense alone.
13
When I was 21, I met the love of my life online. He was '26' at the time. After about a month, he told me he had to talk to me about something, and before he could confess, I guessed; he was actually 32. Something about his stories of school and work just didn't add up for me either, and I came to the conclusion on my own, and accepted the fact before I knew it to be true, and long before he confessed. He was surprised that I knew, and asked if I had taken a peek at his ID - I hadn't. I really didn't care, either. I had already developed feelings for him, and knew that he was worth whatever 'risk' came with the little fib OR his age.
Fast forward to 9 years later and we are still together, stronger and happier than EVER. Don't miss out on an amazing guy just because of something silly like lying about age!!
Fast forward to 9 years later and we are still together, stronger and happier than EVER. Don't miss out on an amazing guy just because of something silly like lying about age!!
14
The ladies of the L Word referred to vaginas as "pink velvet sausage wallets." I was taken aback.
15
Lying is almost always wrong, but lying about being a no-good, partner-endangering thief is much worse than lying about one's age on a first date.
If truthfulness is a priority for the LW, then yes, he should chuck the coward who couldn't own up to his real age. But if he has an online dating profile, he should put "truthfulness is important to me" and "age isn't" on it.
However, if the question was "Is 100% truthfulness unattainable?" then the story about the thief isn't relevant. The LW put an extreme example next to an everyday example. To what purpose?
@8 Agism doesn't cause people to lie about their age. It gives them something to be afraid of, but it doesn't reach into their mouths or brains and force them to lie. A beautiful and expensive product in a store doesn't cause people to shoplift. It just stimulates an impulse that all adult human beings have a duty to overcome.
If truthfulness is a priority for the LW, then yes, he should chuck the coward who couldn't own up to his real age. But if he has an online dating profile, he should put "truthfulness is important to me" and "age isn't" on it.
However, if the question was "Is 100% truthfulness unattainable?" then the story about the thief isn't relevant. The LW put an extreme example next to an everyday example. To what purpose?
@8 Agism doesn't cause people to lie about their age. It gives them something to be afraid of, but it doesn't reach into their mouths or brains and force them to lie. A beautiful and expensive product in a store doesn't cause people to shoplift. It just stimulates an impulse that all adult human beings have a duty to overcome.
16
Heh heh! I like that this video shows lesbian women with a wide variety of appearances, but I don't like that the only hetero woman is an idiot.
18
So he lied in order to be with you. (...well, out of fear and personal experiene leading him to believe that you would reject him if you knew his true age going in, which is not exactly the same thing, but functionally similar.) My question is, did that lie hurt you in any way? Did it hurt anybody else? If so, how? This isn't quite the same ballpark of misrepresentation as, say, only sending you photos from eight years ago, before he gained a hundred pounds and went bald.
I reject the notion that he hurt you by causing you to be unable to trust him anymore, because that trust is in your court, not his. Frankly you came to the relationship with that tendency already firmly in place. (I'm kind of curious what the previous several dealbreaker lies were, too. Is lying about his age anywhere near comparable to those?) And it's not like lying about his age is necessarily going to make him prone to lying about other things, like stealing from his employer or cheating on you. You need to evaluate those risks on their own merits. There is no plausible conduit between being sensitive/fearful about his age and being an amoral, greedy thief/cpos.
Yes, 100% truthful is basically unattainable, and frankly somewhat undesirable. (Yes, honey, those pants _do_ make you look fat. Sorry, that's a lie -- your fat is what makes you look fat.)
If you can find that you or someone else has been genuinely harmed (or at least put at risk of harm) as a result of a lie, sure, dump him. But if the lie causes harm to nobody, whence all the outrage? T pursuit of unconditional truth for truth's sake can become a fetish and a dealbreaker itself.
I reject the notion that he hurt you by causing you to be unable to trust him anymore, because that trust is in your court, not his. Frankly you came to the relationship with that tendency already firmly in place. (I'm kind of curious what the previous several dealbreaker lies were, too. Is lying about his age anywhere near comparable to those?) And it's not like lying about his age is necessarily going to make him prone to lying about other things, like stealing from his employer or cheating on you. You need to evaluate those risks on their own merits. There is no plausible conduit between being sensitive/fearful about his age and being an amoral, greedy thief/cpos.
Yes, 100% truthful is basically unattainable, and frankly somewhat undesirable. (Yes, honey, those pants _do_ make you look fat. Sorry, that's a lie -- your fat is what makes you look fat.)
If you can find that you or someone else has been genuinely harmed (or at least put at risk of harm) as a result of a lie, sure, dump him. But if the lie causes harm to nobody, whence all the outrage? T pursuit of unconditional truth for truth's sake can become a fetish and a dealbreaker itself.
19
#15 No I think any "ism" will cause people to behave in any number of ways. It does reach into the heart of the discriminated against in a profound way. Ageism cause people to lie about their age, because they (as you said) fear rejection fear growing old fear something. That fear does cause a behavior. So A(ageism)=B(fear) B(fear)=C(lying). Now If I do the math right...
20
TRUTH, grow the fuck up. I'll refrain from commenting on your actions in the case of the thieving boyfriend not having all the details, but a gay man over 40 lying about his age online--STOP THE MOTHERFUCKING PRESSES!!!! Gosh, it couldn't possibly have something to do with constantly reading "no one over 40," "no olds," or "within 5 years of my age" in the profiles could it? You might have the start of a point if it was a dating site as opposed to a hook-up site, but if it was Craig's, Grindr, or something similar, assume the age is in Craig's years and the dick size in AOL inches then figure out if you want to date him or not.
21
TRUTH -- you mean you are HONEST about your age? Wow. I thought it was a given every gay man lies about (a) cock size, (b) age (in online profiles).
I'm more focused that EVERY relationship you've had has ended in a lie -- that's unusual, and that you are equating a lie about age with embezzlement. Way different, suggests maybe you do have issues with unreasonable standards.
Embezzlement, not cool. Rounding from 50 to 43 if you look early 40s -- hello. Dan is well into his second decade of being 34, and on TV at least really does look younger than a lot of actually-30-somethings I know. Lucky to have that thick hair gene.
I'm more focused that EVERY relationship you've had has ended in a lie -- that's unusual, and that you are equating a lie about age with embezzlement. Way different, suggests maybe you do have issues with unreasonable standards.
Embezzlement, not cool. Rounding from 50 to 43 if you look early 40s -- hello. Dan is well into his second decade of being 34, and on TV at least really does look younger than a lot of actually-30-somethings I know. Lucky to have that thick hair gene.
22
Lying is a bad character flaw. I have only lied to my husband once, about something trivial, and promptly confessed.
Full disclosure is not necessary, but lying is not ok. I would stay with this guy only if he seemed appropriately embarrassed about it. None of this "Baby, I'm so sorry" crap. I'm talking shame that he compromised his integrity.
Full disclosure is not necessary, but lying is not ok. I would stay with this guy only if he seemed appropriately embarrassed about it. None of this "Baby, I'm so sorry" crap. I'm talking shame that he compromised his integrity.
24
LW--give the guy another chance, and keep your bullshit detector on for a few more months.
If it becomes clear that the age-related lie was an abberation, chalk that up to him buying into the ageist crap you hear about gay men not wanting to be with anyone over 40.
If you catch him in a series of other "white lies," DTMFA.
If it becomes clear that the age-related lie was an abberation, chalk that up to him buying into the ageist crap you hear about gay men not wanting to be with anyone over 40.
If you catch him in a series of other "white lies," DTMFA.
25
I am one of those weird people..... I (almost) don't lie. Well, to qualify, I have lied by omission occasionally and glossed over a few shameful details of my past, but I feel that's my right. I don't believe I have to disclose every bit of dirty laundry about myself, even to my current life partner.
However, with the above qualifier, I do not lie. I have never lied about my age, looks, socio-economic status, body, penis, or just about anything else. I am like this to my detriment. I think 95% of people are actually uncomfortable with somebody like me who tells the truth virtually all the time. It's sort of Aspergers to be a honest person. I just don't fit into society because of this. Most people lie 50 times a day or more in normal conversations. In gay society I am a pariah. I just don't give a shit about the things that most people seem to care about. The things I care are big picture items like my family, social justice and the state of the world.
So what's worse than finding somebody who has told a few white lies? Somebody like me who will tell you the truth.
The liars win, guys like me lose. THAT is no lie.
However, with the above qualifier, I do not lie. I have never lied about my age, looks, socio-economic status, body, penis, or just about anything else. I am like this to my detriment. I think 95% of people are actually uncomfortable with somebody like me who tells the truth virtually all the time. It's sort of Aspergers to be a honest person. I just don't fit into society because of this. Most people lie 50 times a day or more in normal conversations. In gay society I am a pariah. I just don't give a shit about the things that most people seem to care about. The things I care are big picture items like my family, social justice and the state of the world.
So what's worse than finding somebody who has told a few white lies? Somebody like me who will tell you the truth.
The liars win, guys like me lose. THAT is no lie.
26
@13 - Similar story, 'cept for the happy part at the end (I'll spare you)... so I may be projecting here.
Glad it's worked for you. If there's something I've learned over the years, there isn't too many hard and fast rules about this kind of stuff. Well, at least not when we don't want there to be, anyhow.
Glad it's worked for you. If there's something I've learned over the years, there isn't too many hard and fast rules about this kind of stuff. Well, at least not when we don't want there to be, anyhow.
27
I would have a conversation about lies & lying & appropriate responses to such. Say: "I understand that we're all human. I'd like to have as few lies as possible, and I'd like them confessed as soon as possible." Then discuss what are some reasonable standards: maybe lies about sex should be confessed before the partners have sex together; lies about buying something expensive should be confessed within 24 hours; lies about one's feelings should be confessed within a week or so...
The conversation itself should help figure out if you're on the same page about the issue and the solutions. It's also important to take the confessions in stride: ideally, one thanks the person for confessing and one keeps calm about the lie itself, so as to encourage future confessions rather than scaring people into thinking they're better off maintaining the lie.
The conversation itself should help figure out if you're on the same page about the issue and the solutions. It's also important to take the confessions in stride: ideally, one thanks the person for confessing and one keeps calm about the lie itself, so as to encourage future confessions rather than scaring people into thinking they're better off maintaining the lie.
28
Who is worse, the guy who lies about his age by 4%, or the guy who equates this with embezzlement?
29
@19 Your reasoning is flawed. Fear is one of many possible responses to agism (see anger, obliviousness, sadness) and lying is only one of many possible responses to fear. The LW's second partner lied out of cowardice, and no one made him do it.
@18 There is a difference between being honest and using honesty as an excuse to be mean. Honesty doesn't mean saying whatever one wants. It means only saying true things when one does decide to speak and eschewing deceit. "Do these pants make me look fat" can be addressed with, "You looked better in the other pants than in these" or if the asker is a habitual asker of gotta-be-cruel questions, "I'm not playing that game, honey."
@25 I don't lie either, and it can cause a few problems but not as many problems as you mention. Have you tried just refraining from speaking about certain things? A shut mouth is almost always an honest mouth.
Whatever you think about whether lying is bad or not, it is clear that the LW and his 50+ not-partner do not share the same values with respect to honesty. The 50+ guy might have thought it was okay to lie about other things, bills, groceries, that the LW would not. As @27 puts it, they're not on the same page.
@18 There is a difference between being honest and using honesty as an excuse to be mean. Honesty doesn't mean saying whatever one wants. It means only saying true things when one does decide to speak and eschewing deceit. "Do these pants make me look fat" can be addressed with, "You looked better in the other pants than in these" or if the asker is a habitual asker of gotta-be-cruel questions, "I'm not playing that game, honey."
@25 I don't lie either, and it can cause a few problems but not as many problems as you mention. Have you tried just refraining from speaking about certain things? A shut mouth is almost always an honest mouth.
Whatever you think about whether lying is bad or not, it is clear that the LW and his 50+ not-partner do not share the same values with respect to honesty. The 50+ guy might have thought it was okay to lie about other things, bills, groceries, that the LW would not. As @27 puts it, they're not on the same page.
30
LW could possibly need some therapy, although it is impossible to tell without more details. It seems odd and unlikely that every relationship he has been in ends with a lie that causes "complete lack of trust" of a person.
If every relationship-ending lie was akin to the guy embezzling and storing stolen property at LW's place, then he ought to figure out why his judgment in choosing boyfriends is so poor. If, on the other hand, he "completely loses trust" in a person because of a minor untruth not indicative of an ongoing pattern of dangerous dishonesty, then he may need to figure out why he has this rigid, unproductive moral code and unreasonable reaction to it being broken, and see if he can free himself from it. Otherwise, he will never have a successful relationship.
If every relationship-ending lie was akin to the guy embezzling and storing stolen property at LW's place, then he ought to figure out why his judgment in choosing boyfriends is so poor. If, on the other hand, he "completely loses trust" in a person because of a minor untruth not indicative of an ongoing pattern of dangerous dishonesty, then he may need to figure out why he has this rigid, unproductive moral code and unreasonable reaction to it being broken, and see if he can free himself from it. Otherwise, he will never have a successful relationship.
32
It's a funny video, but I have every impression that these women are all comedians/performance artists/improv comics or something. It's fine. But it actually makes it less funny--this isn't just a bunch of off-the-cuff remarks.
33
I found it even more hilarious to watch the "What Gay Guys Think About Vaginas" and they all just couldn't stop giggling.
34
Why is it okay to lie about your age in online profiles because so many gays are agist?
If a 50 year old feels he cannot find a partner because everyone wants only to date within their own age range, I wonder if he only looks at younger guy's profiles or ads himself. Because there must be other 50 year olds who look for a partner.
If a 50 year old feels he cannot find a partner because everyone wants only to date within their own age range, I wonder if he only looks at younger guy's profiles or ads himself. Because there must be other 50 year olds who look for a partner.
35
LW's got a problem with trust, so hence all men are liars. He needs to get a dab of counseling before attempting a relationship.
Living with an embezzler/thief is extreme, but note he states that 'all his relationships end in LYING LIARS LYING, thus breaking his trust'. The only common denominator is him, so either he's drawn to liars, or he is by nature highly suspicious. Life with someone who's forever suspicious can actually cause lying behavior, even in the normally truthful.
LW- everyone lies, so learn to deal with fallible humans or get out of the dating game. Unless of course you've never told a lie, omitted the truth or other wise deceived someone, in which case you should wait for heaven, where everyone is perfect or so I'm told.
Living with an embezzler/thief is extreme, but note he states that 'all his relationships end in LYING LIARS LYING, thus breaking his trust'. The only common denominator is him, so either he's drawn to liars, or he is by nature highly suspicious. Life with someone who's forever suspicious can actually cause lying behavior, even in the normally truthful.
LW- everyone lies, so learn to deal with fallible humans or get out of the dating game. Unless of course you've never told a lie, omitted the truth or other wise deceived someone, in which case you should wait for heaven, where everyone is perfect or so I'm told.
36
He was absolutely correct to dump the embezzler, but I agree that he should give this guy a chance. Deducting seven years off your real age because you're afraid of rejection should be forgivable. We all tell white lies at one time or another; it's only the harmful and damaging lies (about large amounts of money, HIV status, other sex partners, secret children) that should be considered deal breakers.
37
he lied to a potential mate while being a relative stranger to snag a relationship, how much you wanna bet he'll lie when something really important and uncomfortable happens between them ? it's a stupid lie to tell when you're hoping to to gain an ltr because the truth will eventually come out. it's also stupid to lie while trying to gain someone's trust.so TRUST's issues notwithstanding, the liar may have some other issues he might be hiding and isn't a person's ability to be forthcoming another one of those old fashioned traits TRUST might need to be comfortable continuing with this guy ? i i say keep looking.
38
I feel so bad for that boyfriend, fifty and gay, knowing there aren't that many gay adults to begin with and that his window for finding a life partner is closing. I totally understand where the need to lie about his age comes from.
39
I don't know about gay men, but for straight women fewer men in their late 30's (and older) want to date women in their late 30's.
I look young for my age and I've had dates with men my age and older that I met in real life get super odd/mean/etc when they find out (really am I supposed to introduce myself as, "Hi. I'm Smurfette and I'm 38", so as not to "mislead" them). I've done the online dating thing in my late 20's and now late 30's and the number of messages and responses I get is significantly fewer.
I've had friends lie about their age online and suggest I try the same with the reasoning men my age and older will only look for women under 35 so it would help my odds of meeting more people. I'm tempted to lie because the volume of rejection on that one thing really hurts, but at this point I figure that's a pretty good way to spot guys with hang ups about it. However, if the dry spell continues, we'll see.
I look young for my age and I've had dates with men my age and older that I met in real life get super odd/mean/etc when they find out (really am I supposed to introduce myself as, "Hi. I'm Smurfette and I'm 38", so as not to "mislead" them). I've done the online dating thing in my late 20's and now late 30's and the number of messages and responses I get is significantly fewer.
I've had friends lie about their age online and suggest I try the same with the reasoning men my age and older will only look for women under 35 so it would help my odds of meeting more people. I'm tempted to lie because the volume of rejection on that one thing really hurts, but at this point I figure that's a pretty good way to spot guys with hang ups about it. However, if the dry spell continues, we'll see.
40
Dan obviously never got emotionally entangled with a pathological liar like I did. And it was little lies like this one that grew into nine-headed monsters. They collect like blood-sucking parasites over time until YOU are backing up whatever lie they tell a friend right in front of you.
Hey. There's a good way to deal with it. Say, for example, you go to a party with you BF and he tells someone he was his high school class president when you know he wasn't, put a the fucking hammer down on the lie. It's one thing when you tell a white lie to get out of a social engagement because you're overworked. It's another to go out and sprinkle one little trivial lie after another among your friends. Pathological liar will dismiss a lie as nothing of consequence and they'll laugh at you if you make a fuss about it. Pretty soon, your friends will pick up on the inconsistency, the not-quite-believable-shit, the you-don't-strke-me-as-having-enough-brains-or-energy-to-do-the-shit-you-say-you-did. Then your friends will avoid you.
If you don't stop a pattern of lying, one day you'll wake up and this guy could tell you some horror story and you won't know whether to believe him or not - and your doubt will eat you alive. I'd advise holding off on setting up a common bank account and mingling your stuff until you know this guy is a straight shooter. Pathological liars start with small stuff you wouldn't dream of checking out. Then it gets BAD!
Hey. There's a good way to deal with it. Say, for example, you go to a party with you BF and he tells someone he was his high school class president when you know he wasn't, put a the fucking hammer down on the lie. It's one thing when you tell a white lie to get out of a social engagement because you're overworked. It's another to go out and sprinkle one little trivial lie after another among your friends. Pathological liar will dismiss a lie as nothing of consequence and they'll laugh at you if you make a fuss about it. Pretty soon, your friends will pick up on the inconsistency, the not-quite-believable-shit, the you-don't-strke-me-as-having-enough-brains-or-energy-to-do-the-shit-you-say-you-did. Then your friends will avoid you.
If you don't stop a pattern of lying, one day you'll wake up and this guy could tell you some horror story and you won't know whether to believe him or not - and your doubt will eat you alive. I'd advise holding off on setting up a common bank account and mingling your stuff until you know this guy is a straight shooter. Pathological liars start with small stuff you wouldn't dream of checking out. Then it gets BAD!
41
@29, no, clearly I don't know when to shut my mouth. If I did, I wouldn't have these problems. I don't know how to avoid direct questions. "Do you like my engagement ring?" No, I think it's fucking hideous. The best I could do was "these things do not interest me", which is true.
I KNOW what I am supposed to say...... "It's beautiful". That would be a lie. Instead I avoided and I might have not bothered prevaricating slightly, because the effect was the same
"Does this make me look fat?". You can guess my response.
"Am I doing the right thing?". Now, when people ask me this, I give them my considered response. People do NOT like the truth. Dan has a wonderful way of telling the truth (which occasional ducking and weaving I suspect), but I do not. He gets paid for his opinions, I do not.
Not being a liar in society makes you an outcast. White lies are lies.
I KNOW what I am supposed to say...... "It's beautiful". That would be a lie. Instead I avoided and I might have not bothered prevaricating slightly, because the effect was the same
"Does this make me look fat?". You can guess my response.
"Am I doing the right thing?". Now, when people ask me this, I give them my considered response. People do NOT like the truth. Dan has a wonderful way of telling the truth (which occasional ducking and weaving I suspect), but I do not. He gets paid for his opinions, I do not.
Not being a liar in society makes you an outcast. White lies are lies.
42
'Is my expectation of meeting a man who's 100% truthful an unattainable expectation?"
See "Liar, Liar."
See "Liar, Liar."
43
The thing about lying is this: you are going to have to confess eventually. In a way, it makes lies about little things seem...even dumber and less forgivable. If you're lying in an online profile, and you're looking for a LTR, don't you think it's coming out eventually? How much is that going to suck? In a way, wouldn't it be better with a whopper about something really bad? Nope, guess not. Just not worth it. Take your lumps (age based rejection, whatever) up front.
In all fairness to those who discriminate on age: it's not always about just looks. There are plenty of very healthy, extremely well-preserved people in their 40s and up (male and female) and plenty of very unhealthy (and prematurely aged) people in their late twenties and early thirties. However, unfortunately, if you want kids, this makes a difference - it's not just about looks.
Of course, @28 nails the real question in this case.
I thought the lesbians were awesome, but yeah, it didn't quite seem completely spontaneous.
In all fairness to those who discriminate on age: it's not always about just looks. There are plenty of very healthy, extremely well-preserved people in their 40s and up (male and female) and plenty of very unhealthy (and prematurely aged) people in their late twenties and early thirties. However, unfortunately, if you want kids, this makes a difference - it's not just about looks.
Of course, @28 nails the real question in this case.
I thought the lesbians were awesome, but yeah, it didn't quite seem completely spontaneous.
45
Of course 100% honesty is unattainable, but obviously 0% is unacceptable. Where you draw the line in between is up to you.
I completely understand cutting things off with someone who chose to start things of with such an obvious, petty lie. I agree with @43: where do these people think this will end up? Either they are just looking for something short term, or anticipate that one of the first few dates will involve revealing a lie that will call into question everything they have presented about themselves so far. Not a great start for those of us who are primarily concerned at that stage with building trust.
On the other hand, it is most definitely a forgivable transgression, if you have the sense that you can trust him overall and the potential for a relationship seems worth it.
I completely understand cutting things off with someone who chose to start things of with such an obvious, petty lie. I agree with @43: where do these people think this will end up? Either they are just looking for something short term, or anticipate that one of the first few dates will involve revealing a lie that will call into question everything they have presented about themselves so far. Not a great start for those of us who are primarily concerned at that stage with building trust.
On the other hand, it is most definitely a forgivable transgression, if you have the sense that you can trust him overall and the potential for a relationship seems worth it.
46
Kick that lying bastard to the curb. I'll be there to give him a ride and console him. Perfect is the enemy of the possible. Or some shit like that. Whatever.
47
@41 You try to make yourself sound like a paragon of honest virtue, but man, this comment makes you sound inconsiderate and self-centered. (Who cares if Soandso's feelings are hurt! I didn't lie, my conscience is clear.) Complete honesty at all times is not a good thing. We all have opinions and thoughts we should keep to ourselves. "I think your engagement ring is ugly" is one of them. It's not like the person is going to go get a new ring/dress/body/whatever to please you. Saying something like, "Your ring suits you perfectly!" or "You look nice" does no harm to anyone except your aesthetics. Knowing how to balance consideration for others and your opinions is a valuable social skill all people should learn. Knowing when you're being asked for honest advice and when someone is fishing for reassurance is useful too. That telling these lies makes you uncomfortable is just makes you human. We all squirm on the inside when we do this.
The red flag in the letter today isn't so much the initial lie as the bullshit about aging phobia he surrounded his explanation in. Come clean, dude. You lied to attract younger dates because you know 50 year olds dating online mostly get messages from 50+ people.
The red flag in the letter today isn't so much the initial lie as the bullshit about aging phobia he surrounded his explanation in. Come clean, dude. You lied to attract younger dates because you know 50 year olds dating online mostly get messages from 50+ people.
48
My former housemate used to say that a penis and scrotum looked like turkey necks and turkey gizzards. :-)
49
@29: Well, yes, but I'm not the one who is wanting "100% honest." And holding your tongue when someone asks a direct question would constitute a lie of omission under the 100% rule. I do agree that "That's a trap question and you know it" would be fair.
" A shut mouth is almost always an honest mouth."
Sure it is, like when you keep it shut rather than mentioning banging your secretary or that new pair of scarlet pumps in the back of your closet and how much they cost. Or, yes, that you think the new engagement set looks like it came out of a gumball machine.
I agree that diplomacy is the better solution -- and I would happily counsel someone asked to render a necessarily harsh opinion to sidestep it (perhaps "I bet you are so excited! Do you love it?") -- but I do not regard it as 100% honesty by any means.
" A shut mouth is almost always an honest mouth."
Sure it is, like when you keep it shut rather than mentioning banging your secretary or that new pair of scarlet pumps in the back of your closet and how much they cost. Or, yes, that you think the new engagement set looks like it came out of a gumball machine.
I agree that diplomacy is the better solution -- and I would happily counsel someone asked to render a necessarily harsh opinion to sidestep it (perhaps "I bet you are so excited! Do you love it?") -- but I do not regard it as 100% honesty by any means.
50
As a 28 year old gay man who tends to be attracted to older guys, I consider lying about one's age to fall between silly and insecure to significantly objectionable, context depending. For those guys just looking for a hookup, I understand the belief that there are plenty of guys with "arbitrary" age limits, and for those who can pass as younger, there's very little harm in presenting themselves as such in the interest of getting laid (I'm sure several of the "mostly str8" guys are operating under the same principle). However, in the context of seeking a relationship, I find that it is best to present as honest and robust portrayal of yourself as possible at the outset, both to prevent situations like TRUTH's where suddenly honesty is in question, and to identify any potential dealbreakers early on rather than down the line, after time and effort has been invested. I'm at the age where I've begun to consider how I want my life to look 5, 10, 20 years from now, and questions such as marriage and the possibility of kids are regularly turning over in my brain. I understand that plenty of guys much younger than me have long decided these questions and any number of older individuals lack the maturity to even consider such matters (as a Chicagoan living less than a mile from Boystown, I am eminently aware of arrested development within the gay community). However, as I find myself looking for someone with whom I might consider spending the rest of my life, my understanding of the immediacy of these issues differs dramatically on a date with a 39yo guy from where my head might be at going out with a 29yo. As I indicated before, best to present an accurate and more or less complete picture when beginning to date, so that some of the trials that may lie ahead are as visible as possible from the outset; that way, discussion in advance can prevent that which might derail a relationship that had not previously considered these matters. Finally, as I believe that the foundation of almost every relationship is an open and honest dialogue and a fundamental trust of one's partner, lies at the beginning of a relationship suggest potential lies in the future. The context of TRUTH's date's lies give them something of a pass, but he should be on the lookout for further indiscretions, lest he get burned in the future.
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51
Sorry #41 but I agree with #47. I don't think the problem is you're honest, the problem is that you feel 'honesty' gives you free reign to be a jerk. You're not oppressed because the people you alienate and insult don't want to have anything to do with you. Tact really isn't the same thing as lying and there are ways to be honest that don't involve being mean.
52
@41: You call it "being honest". I call it "being an asshole."
Honesty, in and of itself, isn't a virtue, IMO. I really think every response should be what's most considerate to the person you're talking to.
Sometimes, people do need to hear hard truths. You should tell someone that you think their drinking is getting out of hand. I don't think, however, that you should tell someone who's about to go into an interview that they have a stain on their tie. WTF are they going to do about it? And why bother to be honest with them? So you can feel good about always being honest? All that accomplishes is making you feel good while making someone else feel like they're going into the interview with a handicap.
So yes, you are an outcast. Because you put your honesty above other people's feelings. It's no wonder.
Honesty, in and of itself, isn't a virtue, IMO. I really think every response should be what's most considerate to the person you're talking to.
Sometimes, people do need to hear hard truths. You should tell someone that you think their drinking is getting out of hand. I don't think, however, that you should tell someone who's about to go into an interview that they have a stain on their tie. WTF are they going to do about it? And why bother to be honest with them? So you can feel good about always being honest? All that accomplishes is making you feel good while making someone else feel like they're going into the interview with a handicap.
So yes, you are an outcast. Because you put your honesty above other people's feelings. It's no wonder.
53
I never understood lying about one's age, weight, etc.
If a person is not going to be interested in you because of it, revealing it after the fact is not going to help; I for one would feel like the person was trying to manipulate me. If they're okay with it, as TRUTH would have been, then they're going to be upset that you lied over such a trivial thing anyway.
While a 100% honest partner is undesirable, a person willing to lie about something which is potentially a dealbreaker should be avoided. If you're really concerned about being judged for your age/weight/etc, avoid disclosing until it... you can set your age to an unrealistic number (like 99) on dating websites, or post photos which are flattering and perhaps cropped in the right ways (not old!), or avoid disclosing your herpes or bipolar or whatever until the person has gotten to know you a bit.
If a person is not going to be interested in you because of it, revealing it after the fact is not going to help; I for one would feel like the person was trying to manipulate me. If they're okay with it, as TRUTH would have been, then they're going to be upset that you lied over such a trivial thing anyway.
While a 100% honest partner is undesirable, a person willing to lie about something which is potentially a dealbreaker should be avoided. If you're really concerned about being judged for your age/weight/etc, avoid disclosing until it... you can set your age to an unrealistic number (like 99) on dating websites, or post photos which are flattering and perhaps cropped in the right ways (not old!), or avoid disclosing your herpes or bipolar or whatever until the person has gotten to know you a bit.
54
@47 and @51. Just what I thought. You have to lie to fit in. This answers the letter writers question. It's ok to lie. You didn't read what I said
While I might be a bit of an outcast, your bias and judgement was telling. I wasn't complaining about my lot in life. I am very happy. I have a good life, I love and I am loved. I may have few friends, but they are good ones. Fuck you. I am glad I don't have to put up with the likes of you and your vacuous, meaningless, mealy-mouthed bullshit that passes for "tact".
While I might be a bit of an outcast, your bias and judgement was telling. I wasn't complaining about my lot in life. I am very happy. I have a good life, I love and I am loved. I may have few friends, but they are good ones. Fuck you. I am glad I don't have to put up with the likes of you and your vacuous, meaningless, mealy-mouthed bullshit that passes for "tact".
55
@54 Being kind to people isn't simply about fitting in.
Social graces that allow one to get through the day without either lying or being brutally honest are nothing new. They don't come naturally, but are pretty simple to learn.
For example, you can almost always get away with simply not answering a question. That's because a question like "What do you think of my engagement ring?!" isn't actually a request for opinion, it's an invitation to share excitement. Providing a literal, negative opinion is just pointlessly cruel. But there's no need to say you love it if you don't, just deflect: "So many different types of gems!" or simply "You must have been so excited when he gave it to you!"
Social graces that allow one to get through the day without either lying or being brutally honest are nothing new. They don't come naturally, but are pretty simple to learn.
For example, you can almost always get away with simply not answering a question. That's because a question like "What do you think of my engagement ring?!" isn't actually a request for opinion, it's an invitation to share excitement. Providing a literal, negative opinion is just pointlessly cruel. But there's no need to say you love it if you don't, just deflect: "So many different types of gems!" or simply "You must have been so excited when he gave it to you!"
56
My wife and I are exceptionally honest with each other, and I still have to put up with a few bullshit lies. Mostly, these are lies she tells herself because she reallyreally wants them to be true. Things like "once we move to this new place, we'll be great at keeping it clean!" and other such gems of hopeless optimism.
Sometimes, I can let these things slide and let her entertain her delusions, and sometimes I have to call her on her bullshit. But by and large, she's still exceptionally honest. And I like that about her, but this is about as good as it gets.
Sometimes, I can let these things slide and let her entertain her delusions, and sometimes I have to call her on her bullshit. But by and large, she's still exceptionally honest. And I like that about her, but this is about as good as it gets.
58
@48 Corylea, your housemate took that from Sylvia Plath! "Then he just stood there in front of me and I kept on staring at him. The only thing I could think of was turkey neck and turkey gizzards and I felt very depressed."
59
@5, seandr has a pretty valid point.
Never heard of guys who were so attracted to their partner, that at the first intimate meeting resulted in a penis unable to fly at full-mast ?
And, let me tell you, nothing is as heart-wrenching as getting in bed with a fully-erect guy, with things starting to take an pretty interesting turn, and the guy then tells you "honey, sorry to disappoint you but it appears I can't have sex with someone I have not enough feelings for" - while still fully erect.
Penises lie too... alas.
Never heard of guys who were so attracted to their partner, that at the first intimate meeting resulted in a penis unable to fly at full-mast ?
And, let me tell you, nothing is as heart-wrenching as getting in bed with a fully-erect guy, with things starting to take an pretty interesting turn, and the guy then tells you "honey, sorry to disappoint you but it appears I can't have sex with someone I have not enough feelings for" - while still fully erect.
Penises lie too... alas.
60
@54 I feel there's a certain irony in being called vacuous by a person who refuses to think critically about their own behavior and accept that black and white moral statements like "Lying is always bad."
I'm glad you're happy with your life and have good friends. But don't be surprised if any of them ever tells you they find your 100% honesty at all times hurtful and mean rather than charming. After all, they were just being honest!
I'm glad you're happy with your life and have good friends. But don't be surprised if any of them ever tells you they find your 100% honesty at all times hurtful and mean rather than charming. After all, they were just being honest!
62
And one final thing, I do have a fuck you attitude to life. No excuses, but there are reasons. I grew up in a fascist country where civil rights were non-existent for most people and gays like me were routinely locked up in jail. I was remorselessly bullied for years, frequently to the point of suicide both for being different due to sexuality as well as skin colour.
So, having escaped this ghastly existence with brains, work and determination and living in a relatively free (well, except for full equality for gays) country, I have built a good life for myself and my family. Despite my former troubles, I am still a very fortunate individual compared to so many in this world that are struggling for mere survival.
Therefore I just don't have it in me to consider things first world problems like pretty rings and dresses and the latest sunglasses or iPhone or the multitudinous consumerist nonsense and shades of meaning and compulsory white lies and following some invisible script to gain popularity and acceptance.
So, having escaped this ghastly existence with brains, work and determination and living in a relatively free (well, except for full equality for gays) country, I have built a good life for myself and my family. Despite my former troubles, I am still a very fortunate individual compared to so many in this world that are struggling for mere survival.
Therefore I just don't have it in me to consider things first world problems like pretty rings and dresses and the latest sunglasses or iPhone or the multitudinous consumerist nonsense and shades of meaning and compulsory white lies and following some invisible script to gain popularity and acceptance.
63
@62 you didn't read the last line of my post where I said you could be honest without being mean. You can tell someone the truth without putting them down. And sometimes not telling truth is the best response.
I
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64
I don't know who's more eyeroll-worthy the grown-ass man who's too insecure to admit his real age or the one who thinks this is a a SHOCKING BETRAYAL!!!
65
I can understand why a 50-year-old gay man would lie about his age for many of the reasons already mentioned. I would give the guy a second chance, especially if he really likes him.
66
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The address is :
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We will talk more on the site.You can ask me for help there.
Payments Via Check, Payza, PayPal and Liberty Reserve
PS: IT IS NOT A VIRUS"
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