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Good to hear from the other side.
Posted by wxPDX on June 7, 2013 at 4:22 PM · Report this
balderdash 2
Everything that exists inside a fantasy is an object. Our fantasies are little puppet shows we put on in our heads. Objectifying people in fantasies is fine! And with consent, asking real people to act like the objects in your fantasies because it turns you on is also fine. The sin is in failing to distinguish between the object in your head and the person outside of it, and it sounds like AC is staying on the right side of that line, while EFFED was trying to drag his wife over it.
Posted by balderdash on June 7, 2013 at 4:39 PM · Report this
I think AC should work a little harder on trying to see if his wife has any fantasies they could also play with in bed. Send the kids away, open a bottle of wine, talk about masturbation fantasies and about pop culture icons like 50 Shades of Gray or Twilight.

Many women like to experience some dominance in bed, having their arms pinned down, their body handled with some aggression and evidence of desire. Many women like extended oral sex. Many women like doggie style. Many women look forward to a night out, dressed up, with their partner obviously admiring them.

For him to say: "I feel like I would do anything for her, but she has never admitted to any sort of unsatisfied kinks or desires; her own tastes are quite 'vanilla.'"... Well, let's just say I'd like to press the witness a little more about what he does to satisfy her 'vanilla' tastes and what he has done to encourage her to explore the idea of having her own fantasies. A sex life built on her reluctant resignation is one that calls out for improvement.
Posted by EricaP on June 7, 2013 at 5:06 PM · Report this
"Reluctant"? "Resigned"? He doesn't care if she's not enjoying it, as long as she doesn't break down and cry? What about being willing to indulge her vanilla interests rather than kinks... This seems to be all about him getting off in one of two ways for her - "onerous" (with cuckolding talk) or "trying."
Posted by Naq on June 7, 2013 at 5:12 PM · Report this
thene 5
I was a bit more bothered by "When the emotional hurt it inflicts on the wife outweighs any pleasure it provides the husband", personally. Given that it's the husband doing the weighing.
Posted by thene on June 7, 2013 at 5:16 PM · Report this
Oh also, I'm curious whether people are as skeptical of this as I am: "I indulge fairly frequently, since it happens to be the thing that most reliably gets me off. I do make an effort on occasion to climax through other types of stimulation, but this can also be trying for her because it may take a long time"

Seems like he should put himself to that effort half the time, not just "on occasion." Is it unreasonable to expect him to find another fantasy or run the damn script in his head (half the time) rather than make her recite it?
Posted by EricaP on June 7, 2013 at 5:18 PM · Report this
I think the commenters so far are being a little hard on this guy. Certain phrasings are problematic, sure, but does his wife HAVE to be equally invested and pleasured in their sex life? It's possible that she doesn't care about sex as much as he does. Hell, it's possible that it's something she does because it makes him happy, but she could take it or leave it. Maybe she doesn't WANT him to interrogate her about her fantasies or sweat it out trying to please her in bed. Maybe she'd prefer that he went hiking with her or took an interest in her work. Maybe she's pretty much indifferent. Who are we to tell him the situation should be different? He is the one who lives it day in and day out.
Posted by dchari on June 7, 2013 at 6:09 PM · Report this
seandr 9
I've never understood "sexual objectification". For the vast majority of us men who greatly prefer sex with human beings over pumpkins, pillows, and inflatables, to sexualize a woman is to express a fundamental appreciation of her humanness. If you need a term for that thing guys do that sometimes creeps you out and sometimes makes your pussies wet, call it "sexual fixation."

While I'm at it, a person isn't the "object" of a fantasy, they are the "subject".

Finally, what the fuck happened to our ability to understand and appreciate analogies and metaphors? Half the internet is in serious need of a remedial education in poetry. Drawing an analogy between a wife and car is not the same thing as equating a wife and car. The guy's point, which couldn't be more obvious, is that he's proud of his wife and wants to show her off. Criticize him for that if you will, but for Christ's sake, stop it with the boring linguisitic circle jerks. You people are better than that.
Posted by seandr on June 7, 2013 at 7:18 PM · Report this
seandr @9 who are you talking to?
Posted by EricaP on June 7, 2013 at 7:22 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 11
@ 3, that strikes me as presumptuous. As AC writes, "I feel like I would do anything for her, but she has never admitted to any sort of unsatisfied kinks or desires..." (my emphasis). Sounds like he's tried more than once.

@ 9, no. You are the subject. The person you're fantasizing about is the object. Just like in English class. The subject takes action, the object receives it.
Posted by Matt from Denver on June 7, 2013 at 7:49 PM · Report this
v-man 12
Just curious... is there such a thing as a female cuckold?
Posted by v-man on June 7, 2013 at 8:03 PM · Report this
seandr 13
@EricaP: I thought I was talking to the "some of you" that Dan references:

"I'm sure some of you are ready to jump down AC's throat for comparing his wife to a Lamborghini."

But your question is much more profound than that. Indeed, who am I talking to?
Posted by seandr on June 7, 2013 at 8:09 PM · Report this
This LW reminds me of Hyacinth Bucket saying that she wished the alarm (of the car she'd insisted Richard test drive to a hotel for coffee even though the salesman had been called back indoors) wouldn't keep going off as, "It draws attention to the fact that one drives a Rolls Royce," uttered with the sort of simper I can just see in the LW's words.

Like Elinor Dashwood declining to disagree with Robert Ferrars because she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition, I shall voice no further opinion of this LW.
Posted by vennominon on June 7, 2013 at 8:27 PM · Report this
lolorhone 15
The only way to know whether this situation is tenable is to hear from the wife and ask her whether it's working for her as well as it's worked for him. All else is conjecture.
Posted by lolorhone on June 7, 2013 at 9:09 PM · Report this
@11 I always do presume too far. Right now, I'm presuming that he has asked her, but in a badgering way: "I would love nothing more than to indulge [your] fantasies... I would do anything for [you]. [So tell me your fantasies already.]" If he wants to feel GGG without having to actually do anything about it, then he's on the right track. But, in my experience, a guy who was sincerely interested in satisfying his wife's sexual tastes (after 26 years!) wouldn't just dismiss them as "quite vanilla."

He admits he's not interested in satisfying his wife: "she would be happier if I were turned on by something less onerous to her, or if I would at least keep my cuckolding thoughts to myself." She is dissatisfied in bed, and he is not interested in doing anything to improve her dissatisfaction because it would reduce his pleasure, and, hey, she hasn't dumped him yet.

When most of your marital sex is a chore for one person, that's not a great situation. In my presumptuous opinion.
Posted by EricaP on June 7, 2013 at 9:25 PM · Report this
I agree with the points raised by @EricaP.

Why are only kinks worthy to be fulfilled in his opinion? His wife wants vanilla sex, he should be GGG enough to provide vanilla sex more often than "on occassion".

I can sympathise with him only being able to come easily with a cuckolding script in his head- but a) why can't the script run quietly as a fantasy; and b) if it takes him too long to come without the script, what about focussing on the wife's experience and accepting that an orgasm is off the table for him this time?

It's really all about him which is fine to a certain point. But the picture he's drawn of their sex life seems to be quite bleak to me.

Maybe he likes to show the world in this way that he is not man enough to satisfy his wife (therefore she needs to have sex with more considerate other men)?
Posted by migrationist on June 7, 2013 at 10:08 PM · Report this
This guy manages to start by coming across as remarkably selfish, and just dig the hole deeper as he goes. This is all about him and what he can get away with and how the costs to her are worth it. @_@
Posted by Aerach on June 7, 2013 at 10:51 PM · Report this
What makes any of us think that this is actually "Another Cuckold" and not, in fact, the Original Cuckold - ie the husband of EFFED? Because it sounds a lot like the man she's describing, putting his own spin on why she shouldn't mind what he's doing.
Posted by Fishface on June 8, 2013 at 2:09 AM · Report this
Dirtclustit 20
@5 thene

No doubt, that is the kind of talk that you would need the wife's side of the story, because it doesn't really matter how fucked up the husband sounds, if she is fully knowledgeable it's what she desires and explicitly consents to that makes it go from wrong to right for them.

Something as potentially sacred and personal as sex, deserves autonomy and complete respect, it really doesn't matter how sick and twisted or at the other end of the spectrum, prude, nobody should be subjected to unwanted shame, humiliation, or feel they need to compromise at all in what they are willing to do unless they, by their own of-legal-age will it, and consent.

And unfortunately many people live their entire life and die without ever truly knowing what their will truly wanted, because of all the false beliefs they were taught to believe in -- and sometimes forced to accept -- as truths. Whether they were forced or fooled, those false beliefs were adopted because ignorant men decided it must be so, and all the people who stood silent for whatever reason when they knew better, but chose to not speak up

Posted by Dirtclustit on June 8, 2013 at 4:13 AM · Report this
Dirtclustit 21
And indeed, some people should, frankly, go fuck themselves
Posted by Dirtclustit on June 8, 2013 at 4:21 AM · Report this
I agree with Fishface @19. While I suppose it is unlikely this is EFFED's husband, it certainly sounds like a household with exactly the same sexual dynamic.
Posted by mother of two on June 8, 2013 at 4:49 AM · Report this
Ms Erica - IMPO is good. It's the sort of thing Patty Chase (a major user of IMHO) ought to have said but never would.
Posted by vennominon on June 8, 2013 at 7:29 AM · Report this
217 "Maybe he likes to show the world in this way that he is not man enough to satisfy his wife"

Excellent point, and it may very well feel that way in his head. He may love hearing us abuse him. But it's not that he's not MAN enough to satisfy his wife. It's not about the size of his dick or his strength or power or attractiveness or endurance or whatever he imagines.

He's just not a decent enough human being to satisfy his wife. He's too much of an asshole. I always thought cuckolds prided themselves on being abased worms, but really, these guys are uptight selfish pricks who won't bend to meet their wives' very simple requests.

How can he not see the cognitive dissonance here? -- " I would do anything for her [except shut up about other men half the time so she could have fun.]"

@24 thanks :-)
Posted by EricaP on June 8, 2013 at 9:23 AM · Report this
that's @17, not 217
Posted by EricaP on June 8, 2013 at 9:24 AM · Report this
@25: I shouldn't speak in such generalities. Some cuckolds have wives who do enjoy the game, and other cuckolds are able to enjoy their desires in moderation. I was just speaking about men like EFFED's husband and AC, who indulge their obsession to the point of damaging their wives' interest in sex.
Posted by EricaP on June 8, 2013 at 9:43 AM · Report this
Actually the question that occurs to me, and Dan didn't ask, is whether she went into the marriage knowing about this kink. I think there's a distinction between indulging one's partner's kinks that were disclosed and worked into the love life before the engagement, vs those that appeared under the guise of "now that we're married and have two kids and it would be really hard for you to leave..."

Not that people don't change--they do, and there is no age at which one locks in to the true adult self that shall never henceforth vary in the slightest degree. But it's fair for partners to feel betrayed and trapped when stuff you said/implied was/wasn't important before marriage, and especially marriage and kids, suddenly switches.
Posted by IPJ on June 8, 2013 at 3:19 PM · Report this
Here's a thought for AC. He said:

I would love nothing more than to indulge her fantasies in return. I feel like I would do anything for her, but she has never admitted to any sort of unsatisfied kinks or desires; her own tastes are quite "vanilla."

Astonishing how he can answer his own question and not even see it. She DOES have a desire he is not fufilling. She desires regular vanilla sex that doesn't involve cuckolding dirty talk all the time. AC says he does it "on occasion" but that it's difficult because it takes "a long time". I assume that's because he has trouble getting aroused and/or coming. So how about some simple toys, or getting your face or fingers down there? How about you *gasp* not coming and that being OK?

She puts up with a fetish that she clearly doesn't like for you AC, you should give in kind. Sex without the dirty talk is onerous and not as fun I'm sure. Your wife knows all about that kind of sex, because it seems to be most of the sex she gets to have with you. Love her? Think she's the best? Sooo grateful for the sex you get? Prove it by giving her the sex she wants.
Posted by Lynx on June 8, 2013 at 4:25 PM · Report this
sissoucat 33
@Seandr : obviously you're writing to me, mrraaaooow.

@ErikaP, @Lynx. I totally agree. This wannabe-cuckold comes out as very self-centered to me.

It's shocking that he would think of balancing his own pleasure with his wife's emotionnal pain. I'd rather have him balancing his pleasure in cuckold dirty talk with her pleasure in vanilla sex, and her emotionnal pain in cuckold dirty talk with his emotionnal pain in vanilla sex. Of which I see none : it's just boredom that prevents him from doing vanilla as much as she wants it. So the situation is very unbalanced, in fact, and he's absolutely not giving enough.

And yes, he sounds exatcly like what I would imagine from the husband of EFFED. I feel what most crushes EFFED self-esteem is not the cuckold thing, but the way it has almost entirely replaced the kind of sex she likes, without her many interventions about it ever changing anything. EFFED and this LW's wife are not heard, not listened to. That's bad.

As for the Lamborghini comparison : why not ? She's not objectified by that, I feel. But she's objectified in never getting what she wants out of sex. Despite his claims to the contrary, LW is not interested in acting according to her needs and wants, and moreover devaluates it - "she has no desires, she wants vanilla".

Vanilla IS her desire. Respecting her is giving her what she wants : vanilla. Her not having divorced you yet is not a good sign of her being very happy with you.
Posted by sissoucat on June 9, 2013 at 4:40 AM · Report this
sissoucat 34
The LW thinks women's reluctance to cuckolding comes from being "taught to associate true love with a desire for exclusivity" .

There's another thing we've been taught that could make some of us women pretty reluctant to the thought of cuckolding : most women (at last in my country) are taught that some males will really be really eager to share them, for financial profit. Most self-respecting women will not want to end up in prostitution to please someone else, true love or untrue love questions left aside.

I, myself, would have a hard time believing that a self-proclaimed honest cuckold is not an actual dishonest pimp trying to mess up with my head. I've never encountered cuckolds nor pimps, but although the idea of strict monogamy is not appealing to me, I think any mentions of cuckolding would see me run for the nearest exit.

Would anybody with access to honest cuckolds and dishonest pimps care to explain how to tell one from another ?
Posted by sissoucat on June 9, 2013 at 5:06 AM · Report this
34 brings up a good point: that line about "most women are taught to associate true love with a desire for exclusivity." As though she is the one who fails to be in touch with her inner desires, having been brainwashed by society not to be into what he's into. And what makes a cuckold, in his view? Why, a guy who fears losing his partner and also believes she is desirable. Yup, no non-cuckold guys out there who believe their partners to be desirable and also fear losing them on some level.

Or, as I suspect, he does realize that's a pretty normal way to feel about a partner (fearing losing them to death if nothing else) and so everyone who isn't into cuckolding just isn't in touch with themselves. Sigh.

And as others have said: She's told you what she wants, which is sex without the cuckold talk. You don't get to dismiss that as her just being brainwashed by the society into not expressing her desires.
Posted by IPJ on June 9, 2013 at 9:01 AM · Report this
Dan usually tells them that, too:

>> For kinksters lucky enough to be with generous vanilla partners, your somewhat-less-pithy version of KROK (Karmic Rule of Kink) goes like this: "Drive off an understanding, adventurous partner by failing to joyfully accommodate his or her desires for vanilla sex and you will NEVER get your kinky rocks off again without having to pay a pro $500 an hour to put up with your bullshit." >>…

Maybe he didn't notice how rarely AC skips the cuckolding script.
Posted by EricaP on June 9, 2013 at 11:07 AM · Report this
@38: I thought it was weird that Dan leapt on the car analogy--which didn't phase me at all--rather than things like simultaneously believing "I feel like I would do anything for her" and knowing exactly what she wants--the "anything" he could do would be vanilla sex where he doesn't verbalize the cuckoldry fantasy--and yet only rarely going along with that, and feeling pouty about it when he does.

And rereading it, it definitely comes across as his letting her in on this desire after they were married--so she was invested and would find it hard to bail--and steadily ramping things up, pushing boundaries she has made no indication she wants pushed, trying to keep it just on the edge where she won't leave him.
Posted by IPJ on June 9, 2013 at 11:41 AM · Report this
So by this guy's reasoning, everyone male and female should want to be cuckolded, because we find our mates attractive and fear losing them on some level. And everyone male and female should want to cuckold our mates, because a preference for exclusivity is naught but social brainwashing. Lots of thinking, all to land on "Whatever I happen to prefer, that's the natural way for everyone to be. Everyone else is brainwashed, not different."

@19: Because a kinkster steadily driving away a vanilla partner by focusing more and more on their kink to the exclusion of all other sex is very far from a unique situation. Dan objects to the behavior both on first principles and because establishing that kinksters are selfish dicks to avoid and warn all your friends to avoid is not helping all the other kinksters out there to get laid or find mates.
Posted by IPJ on June 9, 2013 at 12:01 PM · Report this

Thanks for giving me perspective.

If my wife sprang a desire to be cuckolded (me having an outside partner), I would not do very well with it. To me it would be more of a "you aren't good enough for me to fuck" vibe. And to have that meme constantly battling away at my happy vanillaville sex would get old, fast.


P.S. In a, I can admit this here but not to my wife, statement. We've both lost a lot of weight, and I'm not so certain I don't miss her cushions fully stuffed. I love the "concentrated " looks, but miss the softness. OTOH, anything that makes her feel better is to the good, I certainly feel better.
Posted by Married in MA on June 9, 2013 at 4:18 PM · Report this
Indighost 43
As someone who has been told by many people, including Dan himself, that his interests are creepy, I would like to take this opportunity to just be selfish and judgmental and say that, honestly:

I think cuckolding is extremely creepy. You're basically asking your partner to be "for pay" which is the most insulting thing I could imagine a partner of mine saying. The car analogy was absolutely disgusting, too.
Posted by Indighost on June 10, 2013 at 8:05 AM · Report this
@43 >> You're basically asking your partner to be "for pay"

I don't understand this. Do you say that because (in your view) any woman who sleeps with multiple guys is a whore and thus a prostitute?

Or because his low self-esteem means he thinks she only has sex with him to maintain her lifestyle (ie, housewife-getting-bad-sex = prostitute-to-her-husband)?

Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with men who enjoy hearing about their partners' actual or fantasized adventures with other men. The problem, for me, comes from when the cuckold undermines the value of the marital sex, by insisting on his own unworthiness and insisting that she prefers other men. It's really hard to hold a marriage together in the face of such insecurity.
Posted by EricaP on June 10, 2013 at 9:18 AM · Report this
Indighost 45
@44 Thank you for your interest in my post which I admittedly described as selfish and judgmental. However, the word-filters at my office prevent me from explaining my incredibly hypocritical moral indignation in accurate terms. Anyways, I agree with your last paragraph there, a lot.It's kind of like the husband begging/demanding his wife to deny her love for him.
Posted by Indighost on June 10, 2013 at 10:50 AM · Report this
mtnlion 46
I think most commenters are being way too hard on this LW.

The two have been married for TWENTY-SIX years. Not three or eight or whatever amount of time is acceptable to put up with bullshit you feel is unfair just to stay comfortable or hold out hope that things will change.

If the wife is upset or dissatisfied about her sex life with her husband (of 26 years), she can speak up by now, no? How is this all on him?

LW sounds quite respectful, rational, and good to his wife as far as I can tell. And if she can't speak up about how terrible she finds his fantasy--and has allowed this to continue for over 2 decades--he has no way of figuring it out.

And, also with seandr @9: The Lamborghini comment is also totally fine. It is an analogy to describe the pride and attraction he has for his spouse. Ease up, Sloggers. LW's wife is a big girl, and you are making a whole lot of assumptions.
Posted by mtnlion on June 10, 2013 at 12:42 PM · Report this
So neither (a) any woman who sleeps with multiple guys is a prostitute, nor (b) housewife-getting-bad-sex = prostitute-to-her-husband)? You meant something else? Now I'm even more curious.

If you can figure out a way to post your thoughts here after work, or to email them to me at (and I'd be happy to repost it here)... that would be sweet.

Posted by EricaP on June 10, 2013 at 12:44 PM · Report this
@47 is meant for Indighost @45
Posted by EricaP on June 10, 2013 at 12:45 PM · Report this
@46, if the LW said "my wife would like me to go down on her as often as she goes down on me, but I hate that, so I only do it occasionally, and I know it's okay because she hasn't left me after twenty-six years," would you say she should speak up about her needs?

She has spoken up (both the LW's wife and the wife in my hypothetical). That's why the LW knows that the wife doesn't like the cuckold talk (and in my hypo, he knows she wants oral).

Obviously, it's not illegal to refuse to be GGG in bed. And in the LW's defense, he doesn't claim to be GGG. But it certainly makes him fair game for SL readers to criticize. Don't want to be criticized for being bad in bed, don't write to Dan and give him permission to post your letter.

Posted by EricaP on June 10, 2013 at 12:55 PM · Report this
There is apparently an invisible army of SLOG commenters out there railing about the terribleness of car analogies, visible only to a select few.

Erica, completely agree with your 49 and 44. His refusal to admit any humiliation aspect to this, or that humiliating a partner might be a turnoff for some people, is frustrating.
Posted by IPJ on June 10, 2013 at 1:39 PM · Report this
mtnlion 51
Erica, in that case, I would still say that the wife should speak up. I believe anything that is unacceptable in one's relationship is up to the bothered party to communicate directly.

I don't think this guy is Husband of the Year, but it sounds like he has a pretty good understanding of his sex life with his wife. It's not that she loves his kink or doesn't wish he was different, but she loves him enough--and feels respected and appreciated enough--to indulge him in this often. And I do believe that if she is unhappy, it is her responsibility to make it known. He sounds like the type of guy who would listen and try to accommodate her.

He should give her vanilla sex more often, but it's not something that has ruined their marriage on the whole, and there is no such thing as a perfect marriage. And the statement "but she hasn't dumped me over it," is an afterthought, after he talks at length about how much he loves her and respects her and is grateful for her. The overall picture does not suggest to me that he is a selfish prick.
Posted by mtnlion on June 10, 2013 at 1:43 PM · Report this
@46: "The status quo we’ve arrived at is that she is resigned..." And he carefully calibrates his relentless pressure to be just short of tears on her part, or a level of pressure that would cause her to leave? His concern with her emotional distress is that it not outweigh his physical pleasure (causing those tears)?

Posted by IPJ on June 10, 2013 at 1:48 PM · Report this
mtnlion 53
I see the point you are making, and don't fully disagree, but I do believe that after 26 years of marriage you do understand what you're a part of. After 10 years of marriage you should know what you're a part of, because people are not likely to change much, especially with their sexual tastes.

I don't think it's necessarily about tears being the breaking point. She could sit him down and say "hey, this really bothers me, you have to tone it down." I believe (based on how he boasts about her) he would make an effort. And any time he started with the dirty talk that left her so hurt, she could speak up and say "we discussed this, and I don't like it, so please keep it in your head this time."

I think the wife is being made out to be kind of a victim, but we haven't heard her side here.

Posted by mtnlion on June 10, 2013 at 2:02 PM · Report this
@53 Don't you think that if the LW's wife were totally au fait with the situation, the LW would be able to report to Dan that he's asked her recently, and she's explicitly told him she's all good? The fact that he's making guesses and assumptions about her feelings suggests to me that he hasn't asked because he doesn't want to risk a negative answer.

And it is very difficult, once you've let something go on for years, to admit that you're sick of it and you've been sick of it for some time. What seems a slightly onerous but kind gift to your partner can be turned into an intolerable burden, but one you feel obliged to carry. It becomes a burden when the partner starts being lazy and pretends that you're not paying a high price for indulging a preference that you find unpleasant.
Posted by misspiggy on June 10, 2013 at 3:17 PM · Report this
mtnlion 55
@54, you may be correct, but no one is making more guesses and assumptions than the Sloggers ready to talk about how much of an asshole this guy is.

If he does indeed only pleasure her once in a while, and she is accommodating him often, that is certainly something they should communicate about. He should maybe ask more questions, but I will reiterate that it has been 26 years and I'm willing to bet this guy knows a bit more about how his wife feels than we do. And I know it may be hard, but if it is devastating to her, ball's in her court to bring it up. He may be blissfully ignorant, but if that is the case she is making it easy.

We also have no reason to believe that he doesn't make her come either before or after he does. It is quite possible to switch from kink to vanilla or vice-versa when the kink is largely dirty talk. Maybe most times during sex before *he* comes, there is cuckolding talk, but when *she* comes, things are largely vanilla. Maybe he doesn't mention this because vanilla is default, and it's not a kink like his to work at meeting. I've got that kind of sexual relationship with my near-husband, and it seems to work out pretty great.

But again, this is all speculation.

Posted by mtnlion on June 10, 2013 at 5:16 PM · Report this
@54: It's possible not leaving means she's happy on balance, even if the sex life is different than she wants. But I come back to Dan's line, "Does the wife always feel like she is being subjected an extended psy-ops campaign here?" If you're unhappy it's on you to change things, I'm a strong advocate of that. But the relentless psy-ops campaign can make someone feel like hunkering and enduring are their only options. (To an outside person, the "why don't you leave someone who hurts you over and over?" is a frustratingly clear solution; to the person trapped inside the emotional abuse seeing a way out is hard.) And the way some late-revealed kinks ramp up--wait until married and perhaps kids, then bring up, then push for more, then insist that the only sex, or almost only sex, will be with the kink because other kinds don't work--has some parallels to that relentless pys ops campaign. Where the person would have said no if this came up early in dating, but feels trapped and gives another inch because it's just an inch, and can never go backward because that's "unfair" if it was tolerable last year or week.

As for calling him an asshole, that's how he comes across. And if you can't even come across as a reasonable, caring person truly concerned about your partner in a letter you craft yourself, then people are within bounds to suggest that the LW is really, really off in his self-assessment. (e.g. "The kinkster's physical pleasure should never be smaller than their partner's emotional distress or it's not worth it" is maybe not the last word in showing concern for your partner.)

In one breath he says that he feels like he would do anything for her, and in the next he explains his list of reasons for not being able to do that, at least not very often. (Pretty much all of which boil down to "Turns out, what she wants isn't exciting for me.") That thoroughly gives the lie to how much action he'll provide for his abstract adoration and flexibility and willingness to do anything to make her happy.
Posted by IPJ on June 11, 2013 at 7:24 AM · Report this
Meant 55, not 54.
Posted by IPJ on June 11, 2013 at 7:25 AM · Report this
mtnlion 58
@55, again, the wife has been made out to be a victim and I don't see that.

I imagine it gets old to listen to this guy talk about cuckolding often, but I hardly feel as though she's being abused.

And I will reiterate what I said before: how are we clear that her pleasure isn't happening before or after his? The thing is, indulging in this kink is what reliably gets him off. And not indulging in any kinks is what reliably gets her off. I don't think it's unbelievable to think that he makes her come before/after in the "conventional" ways, but then she still has to listen to the cuckolding chat while he gets his because that's what does it for him.

In that case he *does* indulge her regularly, but then feels the need to indulge himself as well. Without any kink talk at all, it is difficult for one of them to get there. With it, they both get there if at different times.

I get the feeling this is an annoyance for her but she doesn't feel terrorized. Marriages are full of things that we merely deal with to preserve an otherwise happy and stable union. I just feel like people are reading too far into this.

We need to hear from the wife or at least figure out if he makes makes her come with any regularity. And I don't think that'll happen.
Posted by mtnlion on June 11, 2013 at 6:13 PM · Report this
mtnlion 59
Meant 56, not 55.
Posted by mtnlion on June 11, 2013 at 6:16 PM · Report this
If you are biased in some way and project your feelings onto this dialogue, then you are either going to accept or condemn it. Both are wrong if you don't consider the situation objectively. ie: Not from your reasoning but from the reasoning of many people involved.

What I've found is a wide array of influences and intentions from both sides in the relationships. The only commonality is the involvement of a third party. Just like all things in life, in moderation it is the spice, otherwise it becomes toxic. Who is sleeping with whom makes no difference unless you have personal issues that need addressed. Cuckolding is different from the norm and the natural human reaction is to fear what we do not understand. The fear is often expressed through disdain, conjecture and hate. Then we find ways to justify our reasoning and support our argument. Our ability to adapt to our environment is unparallelled on this planet. We live on every continent and in every climate. So our ability to find pleasure, joy and a sense of fulfillment from varied sexual practices isn't that surprising. But without understanding this, without understanding how you and the others around you work (which are likely different from you), naturally you will think there is something inherently wrong with cuckolding. You only need to ask the question, "Why do I not like this?" and persist until there are no more questions to ask and no more answers to be given. Then you will fully understand why someone would want something like this, or any other experience in life. It's easy to think this is either bad or good in some fashion, to generalize it and move on. But you're not doing yourself justice if you do.
Posted by shark-bait-ooh-ha-ha on July 2, 2013 at 10:13 AM · Report this
I have a different, more simplified experience with cuckolding. I have all the attributes to be a 'gret lover'- good looks, well endowed, thoughtful, energetic, skillful- however I have never had any stamina during intercourse. I have severe rapid ejaculation issues, therefore I've never really been able to satisfy any women I've been with. Eventually they get bored with clitoral stimulation only and crave penetration, ie a real good hard effing.
This led me to the fetish of cuckolding, whereby I watch my girlfriend have a man who can penetrate vigorously for a long period of time. I get off on it, even though sexual humiliation is intrinsic to the fetish and she gets what she cannot get from me.
It's certainly not selfish, it's quite the opposite. I decided to try being cuckolded because of a sexual inadequacy, I deal with and process the sexual humiliation internally so my girlfriend can have good intercourse once or twice a month.
It's odd how hostile so many people seem to someone who is involuntarily (do we ever pick our fetishes?) into being cuckolded.
Posted by robpdx on July 3, 2013 at 11:17 AM · Report this

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