Slog Comments
The Catholic Church vs. Gay Equality
2
So in response to questionable legal activity you are compelled to initiate illegal vandalism? Shit logic as always, Dan. Do you still have that lawyer who helped you out with licking those door knobs on retainer? You're probably gonna need him.
3
"What is a hate crime in Seattle?
"Maliciously or intentionally causing physical injury to a victim or another person, causing physical damage, to or destruction of the property of the victim or another person or THREATENING a specific person or GROUP of persons and placing that person, or members of the specific group of persons, in reasonable fear of HARM to person or PROPERTY because of his or her perception of the victim’s race, color, RELIGION, ancestry, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, marital status, political ideology, age, parental status, mental, physical or sensory handicap."
"Maliciously or intentionally causing physical injury to a victim or another person, causing physical damage, to or destruction of the property of the victim or another person or THREATENING a specific person or GROUP of persons and placing that person, or members of the specific group of persons, in reasonable fear of HARM to person or PROPERTY because of his or her perception of the victim’s race, color, RELIGION, ancestry, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, marital status, political ideology, age, parental status, mental, physical or sensory handicap."
5
the holy roman church, which has its own country, bank, newspaper, property holdings across the planet, and it's boot on the throat of humanity for a millenium, is the underdog? i bet the asshole actually believes that, too.
6
The rules for elections for public office are different from those for a referendum on a subject of public interest.
It may not please Dan Savage but Catholics, including Marc Mutty, get to participate in public discourse as well.
You should consult that lawyer @2 mentioned to educate yourself before you post stupid churlish crap.
It may not please Dan Savage but Catholics, including Marc Mutty, get to participate in public discourse as well.
You should consult that lawyer @2 mentioned to educate yourself before you post stupid churlish crap.
7
How amazing that you entirely missed the point, @1. And that you think that gays are somehow anti-family--You know, I'm just going to stop now before I work myself into a froth.
The Catholic Church as the "little guy". How very amusing. This reminds me of how in a fundraising video the GOP referred to the Dems as the "Empire" when the GOP was in charge of Congress and the Presidency.
This is all of it that I can find, but trust me, it was terrible:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-fe…
The Catholic Church as the "little guy". How very amusing. This reminds me of how in a fundraising video the GOP referred to the Dems as the "Empire" when the GOP was in charge of Congress and the Presidency.
This is all of it that I can find, but trust me, it was terrible:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-fe…
8
I was at the Vatican Museum and Sistine Chapel two weeks ago. Definitely not the little guy. Best part: in the Chapel, there's a thousand gawkers looking at the breathtaking ceiling and, as the chatter increased, every few minutes the official Vatican shusher would go shush and everybody would quiet down for three minutes, then the excitement would rise, the noise would increase and the shusher would once again go to work.
9
Yeah, physical violence is the wrong way to go, Dan. You should use your soapbox to piss on the Catholic Church every chance you get instead.
Oh, wait . . . you already do that.
Oh, wait . . . you already do that.
10
The Catholic leadership are only good for one thing, which is how age of consent laws came about.
16
The Big Bad Scary Gay People! Oooo! Of course here in Washington I've already asked to volunteer in my school to teach the first graders about bondage, S&M, toys (but they know about those already), Bobby's two Dads, Sally's Two Moms, Treavor's Christian Fundamentalist Thrice Divorced Father, and of course "Gay" Marriage is = to "Str8" Marriage math lessons. Our schools need more volunteers.
17
Most of my friends are Catholic. But it's getting harder and harder for me to understand how they can continue to be a part of an institution so squarely opposed to human dignity.
18
Is there an organized group going after the tax exempt issue? If so, I want to join it. First on the list should be Catholics and Mormons.
19
A lot of people forget that seizing church lands and assets had a lot to do with why there are Anglicans and Episcopalians and other such instead of just Catholics.
But never forget they have a LOT of lawyers.
But never forget they have a LOT of lawyers.
20
"The little guy going up against the big guy" doubtless has more to do with subconscious fantasies of the nerdy twink having his way with the [fortuitously tied up] muscle hunk.
21
@1 By the way people like Savage are crying foul you'd believe that they were the underdogs. The same story in WA, the funneling of dollars from Hollywood and SF poured in the gay side. But make no mistake the grassroots mobilization with close to little funds was made by the pro-family side.
In the end what counts, is the family, neighbor and good people who make a conscience decision to uphold the family such as the good people in Maine did.
They have taught us all a great lesson of perseverance and courage. And I'm just happy to have played a small minuscule role in the defense of values that Mainers of all religious affiliations (not only catholics) hold dear.
In the end what counts, is the family, neighbor and good people who make a conscience decision to uphold the family such as the good people in Maine did.
They have taught us all a great lesson of perseverance and courage. And I'm just happy to have played a small minuscule role in the defense of values that Mainers of all religious affiliations (not only catholics) hold dear.
22
What would these Catholic religious bigots do without their martyr complex? It allows them to spin baroque fantasies of sacrifice and struggle, us vs. them, and so on. The reality is, of course, that they have tremendous wealth, tax-free status, and thousands of years of myth, lies and guilt at their disposal.
24
Remember Maine: Full Federal Equality Now!
By SHERRY WOLF
IN STARK contrast to the surge of pro-LGBT activism, and legislative and legal progress in recent months, Maine voters overturned equal marriage rights on Election Day by a margin of 53 percent to 47 percent.
Voter turnout of nearly 50 percent, local efforts by 8,000 volunteers—many of them straight—and a national blitz of phone banking to try to sway Mainers to uphold equal marriage was not sufficient to retain same-sex marriage in that state. Maine’s Question 1—similar to California’s Proposition 8 that reversed same-sex marriage rights in that state exactly a year ago—once again placed civil rights on the ballot, this time in an off-year election.
In Washington state, a new law that greatly expands the rights of LGBT couples—though doesn’t grant marriage itself—was approved by voters, but by an unexpectedly narrow margin of 51 percent to 49 percent.
The failure of the same-sex marriage forces in Maine’s No on 1 campaign to retain marriage equality passed earlier this year by the legislature highlights four central problems: 1) Civil rights activists are weakest outside of urban areas where the financial and institutional resources of the right can dominate rural politics; 2) President Obama and the Democrats have failed to deliver on their promise of “fierce advocacy” of LGBT civil rights; 3) LGBT rights must be enacted into law by the federal government; and 4) Civil rights should not be reduced to election fodder to be manipulated by well-financed bigots.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
NATIONWIDE, LGBT activists scrambled in a monumental effort to try to stop right-wingers in Maine from succeeding in what was often termed a “mini-Prop 8” effort that relied on money from the Catholic Church and blitzed the media with lies about how gay marriage would be taught in the schools and imposed on religious institutions.
Local groups will assess the No on 1 organizing efforts in coming weeks, but suffice it to say that despite what appears to have been an energetic and collaborative campaign, equal marriage has lost in every state it has been put to a popular vote—31 in all. Despite the fact that the No on 1 campaign, Protect Maine Equality, raised $4 million and the anti-same-sex marriage forces raised only $2.5 million, the strategy of statewide ballot initiatives plays to activists’ weaknesses, especially in non-urban areas.
In addition to the purposely confusing language used by the right in these initiatives—voting “yes” denied equality, voting “no” would have retained it—larger population centers create opportunities for activists to reach people in groups, as in Portland, Maine, where the vote was an overwhelming 73 percent against Question 1. At University of Maine’s Orono campus, 81 percent of students voted against taking away equal marriage rights, also showing the generation gap that persists on this question.
Similarly, in Washington state, it was urban King County that voted overwhelmingly for the “everything but marriage” referendum, while the less populated eastern part of the state voted against it.
Just three weeks after the massively successful LGBT National Equality March that drew more than 200,000 people demanding full federal equality now, conservatives are punching back. Right-wing bigots like Pat Robertson have attacked recently enacted federal hate crimes legislation, saying, “The noose has tightened around the necks of Christians to keep them from speaking out on certain moral issues.”
In the face of this hostility and legal challenges, the Democrats have been passive at best and hostile at worst. The White House and Congress have failed to deliver so far on promises to reverse decades of legal discrimination in federal and state laws.
When Attorney General Eric Holder was asked about Maine’s Question 1, he said that he and President Obama “are of the view it is for states to make these decisions.” Holder later said to one blogger, “I don’t really know enough about the referendum over there to comment.” As National Equality March organizer Cleve Jones said on MSNBC of President Obama’s silence on Question 1, “This is a far cry from the fierce advocacy he promised us in his campaign.”
Even more outrageous, not only did the Democratic National Committee (DNC) refuse to help finance the No on 1 campaign, but it expressed crass indifference to LGBT rights when the DNC’s organization “Organizing for America” (formerly known as “Obama for America”) e-mailed Maine voters the day before the election about getting involved…in the gubernatorial contest in New Jersey (which lost)!
The failure of the Democrats to hold onto huge gains made in the 2008 election in New Jersey and Virginia gubernatorial races—and the flaccid response from Obama’s base in this off-year election—reveals that the inability of the Democrats in power to deliver on their promises is alienating progressives.
“President Obama and his team were zero help in this critical battle, and in the last week might actually have hurt us,” said David Mixner, long-time Democratic Party activist and initiator of the call for the National Equality March.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MAINE’S REVERSAL on marriage equality proves once again the bankruptcy of the state-by-state, issue-by-issue strategy upheld by many establishment LGBT forces. This approach concedes that civil rights must remain on the precarious turf of the states, in a country where one Constitution is supposed to guarantee equal protection under the law.
Activists can no longer accept that LGBT civil rights can be attained outside the federal government. Even if Maine voters had rejected Question 1, most marriage rights like Social Security are only gained through the federal government and married LGBT people in Maine, as in the equal marriage states, would have remained second-class citizens under the law.
The right’s strategy of placing LGBT civil rights on state ballots for a vote places the battle for human equality on an unstable and hostile terrain. Why should anyone have to battle in each locality for equal treatment in a country where the Fourteenth Amendment—passed after the Civil War!—guarantees equal protection to all U.S. citizens? Why should LGBT people have to repeatedly reassert that we are equal human beings in every state and municipality 45 years after the Civil Rights Act prohibited discrimination?
Civil rights cannot wait for the approval of reactionaries. According to that logic, Blacks, too, should have waited for public opinion to catch up with their demands. But in 1968, one year after the Supreme Court struck down bans on interracial marriage as unconstitutional, Gallup polls showed that only 20 percent of Americans approved of marriages between Blacks and whites.
The failure of Maine’s No on 1 campaign highlights why the National Equality March demand for full equality in all matters of civil law in all 50 states must continue to be the rallying cry of grassroots activists across the country.
This is the Week of Initiative called by Equality Across America, the national network attempting to gather these groupings to map out a national strategy to continue this fight. In cities and towns across the country this week, activists will be marching and protesting this defeat in Maine—and celebrating victories in Washington state and Kalamazoo, Michigan, where pro-LGBT referenda passed.
Remember Maine. Get out and organize for full federal equality now!
SHERRY WOLF is the author of Sexuality and Socialism: History, Politics and Theory of LGBT Liberation (Haymarket Books, 2009) and was on the steering committee of the National Equality March.
More...
By SHERRY WOLF
IN STARK contrast to the surge of pro-LGBT activism, and legislative and legal progress in recent months, Maine voters overturned equal marriage rights on Election Day by a margin of 53 percent to 47 percent.
Voter turnout of nearly 50 percent, local efforts by 8,000 volunteers—many of them straight—and a national blitz of phone banking to try to sway Mainers to uphold equal marriage was not sufficient to retain same-sex marriage in that state. Maine’s Question 1—similar to California’s Proposition 8 that reversed same-sex marriage rights in that state exactly a year ago—once again placed civil rights on the ballot, this time in an off-year election.
In Washington state, a new law that greatly expands the rights of LGBT couples—though doesn’t grant marriage itself—was approved by voters, but by an unexpectedly narrow margin of 51 percent to 49 percent.
The failure of the same-sex marriage forces in Maine’s No on 1 campaign to retain marriage equality passed earlier this year by the legislature highlights four central problems: 1) Civil rights activists are weakest outside of urban areas where the financial and institutional resources of the right can dominate rural politics; 2) President Obama and the Democrats have failed to deliver on their promise of “fierce advocacy” of LGBT civil rights; 3) LGBT rights must be enacted into law by the federal government; and 4) Civil rights should not be reduced to election fodder to be manipulated by well-financed bigots.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
NATIONWIDE, LGBT activists scrambled in a monumental effort to try to stop right-wingers in Maine from succeeding in what was often termed a “mini-Prop 8” effort that relied on money from the Catholic Church and blitzed the media with lies about how gay marriage would be taught in the schools and imposed on religious institutions.
Local groups will assess the No on 1 organizing efforts in coming weeks, but suffice it to say that despite what appears to have been an energetic and collaborative campaign, equal marriage has lost in every state it has been put to a popular vote—31 in all. Despite the fact that the No on 1 campaign, Protect Maine Equality, raised $4 million and the anti-same-sex marriage forces raised only $2.5 million, the strategy of statewide ballot initiatives plays to activists’ weaknesses, especially in non-urban areas.
In addition to the purposely confusing language used by the right in these initiatives—voting “yes” denied equality, voting “no” would have retained it—larger population centers create opportunities for activists to reach people in groups, as in Portland, Maine, where the vote was an overwhelming 73 percent against Question 1. At University of Maine’s Orono campus, 81 percent of students voted against taking away equal marriage rights, also showing the generation gap that persists on this question.
Similarly, in Washington state, it was urban King County that voted overwhelmingly for the “everything but marriage” referendum, while the less populated eastern part of the state voted against it.
Just three weeks after the massively successful LGBT National Equality March that drew more than 200,000 people demanding full federal equality now, conservatives are punching back. Right-wing bigots like Pat Robertson have attacked recently enacted federal hate crimes legislation, saying, “The noose has tightened around the necks of Christians to keep them from speaking out on certain moral issues.”
In the face of this hostility and legal challenges, the Democrats have been passive at best and hostile at worst. The White House and Congress have failed to deliver so far on promises to reverse decades of legal discrimination in federal and state laws.
When Attorney General Eric Holder was asked about Maine’s Question 1, he said that he and President Obama “are of the view it is for states to make these decisions.” Holder later said to one blogger, “I don’t really know enough about the referendum over there to comment.” As National Equality March organizer Cleve Jones said on MSNBC of President Obama’s silence on Question 1, “This is a far cry from the fierce advocacy he promised us in his campaign.”
Even more outrageous, not only did the Democratic National Committee (DNC) refuse to help finance the No on 1 campaign, but it expressed crass indifference to LGBT rights when the DNC’s organization “Organizing for America” (formerly known as “Obama for America”) e-mailed Maine voters the day before the election about getting involved…in the gubernatorial contest in New Jersey (which lost)!
The failure of the Democrats to hold onto huge gains made in the 2008 election in New Jersey and Virginia gubernatorial races—and the flaccid response from Obama’s base in this off-year election—reveals that the inability of the Democrats in power to deliver on their promises is alienating progressives.
“President Obama and his team were zero help in this critical battle, and in the last week might actually have hurt us,” said David Mixner, long-time Democratic Party activist and initiator of the call for the National Equality March.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MAINE’S REVERSAL on marriage equality proves once again the bankruptcy of the state-by-state, issue-by-issue strategy upheld by many establishment LGBT forces. This approach concedes that civil rights must remain on the precarious turf of the states, in a country where one Constitution is supposed to guarantee equal protection under the law.
Activists can no longer accept that LGBT civil rights can be attained outside the federal government. Even if Maine voters had rejected Question 1, most marriage rights like Social Security are only gained through the federal government and married LGBT people in Maine, as in the equal marriage states, would have remained second-class citizens under the law.
The right’s strategy of placing LGBT civil rights on state ballots for a vote places the battle for human equality on an unstable and hostile terrain. Why should anyone have to battle in each locality for equal treatment in a country where the Fourteenth Amendment—passed after the Civil War!—guarantees equal protection to all U.S. citizens? Why should LGBT people have to repeatedly reassert that we are equal human beings in every state and municipality 45 years after the Civil Rights Act prohibited discrimination?
Civil rights cannot wait for the approval of reactionaries. According to that logic, Blacks, too, should have waited for public opinion to catch up with their demands. But in 1968, one year after the Supreme Court struck down bans on interracial marriage as unconstitutional, Gallup polls showed that only 20 percent of Americans approved of marriages between Blacks and whites.
The failure of Maine’s No on 1 campaign highlights why the National Equality March demand for full equality in all matters of civil law in all 50 states must continue to be the rallying cry of grassroots activists across the country.
This is the Week of Initiative called by Equality Across America, the national network attempting to gather these groupings to map out a national strategy to continue this fight. In cities and towns across the country this week, activists will be marching and protesting this defeat in Maine—and celebrating victories in Washington state and Kalamazoo, Michigan, where pro-LGBT referenda passed.
Remember Maine. Get out and organize for full federal equality now!
SHERRY WOLF is the author of Sexuality and Socialism: History, Politics and Theory of LGBT Liberation (Haymarket Books, 2009) and was on the steering committee of the National Equality March.
25
Let he who is without succotash cast the first can of creamed corn. Let he who is without an altar boy preach the lesson of abstention. Let he who cannot or will not find a suitable partner marry The Church. And where there is hate and misunderstanding, sow fear with salt and battery acid. Good going Catholics - you're living up to your well-earned historical reputation, e.g. the Inquisition, the invasion of the New World and your questionably gay dress code.
26
The Catholic Church the underdog? Please. How many free homilies did those child-f------ priests deliver an all "faggot sextards" (that's how they view us, not how we view ourselves) are going to hell homily every Sunday. They didn't need the money to get their message out. Underdog my a--. These bible-thumping straight guys never have their dignity questioned and that's because they are the 90-95% majority. But picking on those of us who are gay? No problem whatsoever.
30
According to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Maine is 14.5% Catholic. No matter your belief, your sexuality, your political slant, that ain't a majority.
31
30
but please give Dan some credit-
he's making a little progress with his paranoia and inferiority complex where religions are concerned-
after all he spent the year since Prop 8 hiding under his bed from the 1.6% of California that is Mormon...
but please give Dan some credit-
he's making a little progress with his paranoia and inferiority complex where religions are concerned-
after all he spent the year since Prop 8 hiding under his bed from the 1.6% of California that is Mormon...
33
It's unfortunate that Maine went the way it did, but take heart - marriage equality clearly wins among younger voters. Thus, proponents of homosexual marriage just need to wait until the current generation of bigots dies, and then this civil rights battle will be won by default.
34
Loveschild, this vote settles nothing. We will be back, as many times as it takes to get equality.
35
i share the contempt at the astounding adacity of the Roman Church, but the gay community need not give up on Christianity. There are many denominations and individual Christians who are our friends and have open doors. They are our allies, not our enemies. Please don't paint these faithful people with the same brush.
36
Hi Dan. First time reader, and wow, a lot of your readers are real jerks to you. I guess they think God was wrong about that one commandment about loving their neighbors. I don't know how you put up with a constant string of gratuitous personal attacks. Keep on keepin' on, neighbor.
37
Welcome, Shoe. If you think the readers here are being jerks, check out some of the other threads. You ain't seen nothin' yet. It doesn't really matter, though - the only thing that matters to Dan or anyone else at Slog is the page hits (which are fucking huge).
38
Nope, it isn't legal, since the American Catholic Church is 501(c)(3) tax-exempt. They can "lobby" to some extent, but they can't engage in "political activity," which would include collecting donations for a political cause, as they did. Surely someone is going to sue over this - right?
39
I like to think that the "big guy" is God, in which case the Catholic Church is certainly going against him - against the precepts of love, tolerance and equality.
40
@1 - no on 1 was entirely made up of homosexuals? really? so that would mean that 47% of maine voters are homosexual. i wish! my odds would be a lot better.
and as far as being pro-family... don't be so naive - include all types of families.
and as far as being pro-family... don't be so naive - include all types of families.
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