Slog Comments
Health Care Passes the House
2
Well, they must have known they'd have to give that up if they were negotiating with Catholic leadership on it. And why the fuck were they negotiating with religious leaders about this anyway?!
3
Man, I dunno what to think about this. Yay for health care reform, but the abortion funding pull just makes me want to put my head through a desk.
The coldest part of the equation, besides sacrificing women and choice, was that maybe this was the best political course of action. The blogger Rude Pundit noted a few days ago that abortion was the GOP's last arrow, as in the one thing that the GOP could have a firm rally point for derailing health care. The Stupak amendment was likely a tactic to head it off at the pass.
So we have reform, but with a horrible slap in the face to pro-choice people.
All I know is, I'm gonna be donating more to Planned Parenthood.
The coldest part of the equation, besides sacrificing women and choice, was that maybe this was the best political course of action. The blogger Rude Pundit noted a few days ago that abortion was the GOP's last arrow, as in the one thing that the GOP could have a firm rally point for derailing health care. The Stupak amendment was likely a tactic to head it off at the pass.
So we have reform, but with a horrible slap in the face to pro-choice people.
All I know is, I'm gonna be donating more to Planned Parenthood.
4
Like a battle in any war, you have to expect some casualties. This is a big step in the right direction, and if we are successful here, then maybe the momentum can lead to more reform in the future.
5
Yeah, the abortion thing is bullshit and I truly hope that down the road that part is overwritten, but I'm at least slightly hopeful that we may yet have healthcare reform in this country. SLIGHTLY.
6
do people become republicans because they want to be on the team that has discipline?
shit bush rammed a few billion dollar a month wars through a red government and these fucking democrats, infinitely more likable though they are, can't seem to accomplish shit. 49 against? that's like 15%. ain't gonna see margins like that in the senate.
goddamn i hate america sometimes.
shit bush rammed a few billion dollar a month wars through a red government and these fucking democrats, infinitely more likable though they are, can't seem to accomplish shit. 49 against? that's like 15%. ain't gonna see margins like that in the senate.
goddamn i hate america sometimes.
7
@6 Paul's got it wrong in the article. It was 39 dem's against. But still, point well taken. And one of them was Brian Baird.
But the bill is far from perfect, so in some sense maybe they were voting no for all the right reasons.
FWIW, Kucinich was a no vote.
But the bill is far from perfect, so in some sense maybe they were voting no for all the right reasons.
FWIW, Kucinich was a no vote.
8
Kucinich is a marginalized clown.
And as stated above, if you happen to support abortion, then now is the time to contribute to Planned Parenthood.
And as stated above, if you happen to support abortion, then now is the time to contribute to Planned Parenthood.
9
To the 39 piece-of-shit democrats who voted against this, fuck you on a rusty fencepost, and see what your gold-plated Congressional health insurance does for you then. If any of you turds somehow manage to still maintain some level of public awareness at the natural end of your worthless lives, know now that your obituaries will say "voted against the party, the people, and common sense in the vain hope of avoiding defeat in the 2010 elections."
10
I'm not really sure why everyone is so god damn glum about it. Fuck, we may actually see a major first step towards UHC. I really don't get why the political compromises along the way are so surprising, or why I should be so fucking angry. It's not like some democrats sitting it out is some big shock or anything. The abortion thing sucks, but I'd rather have something than nothing. Maybe the left is simply incapable of optimism now. If that's the case, kiss it all good bye.
11
A lot of those 39 votes could have been turned into yeas, but there wasn't any need. Pelosi needs to keep in mind the 2010 election, after all. One of the things the anti-choice amendment did was bring on enough votes to allow that kind of finessing. It's an ugly game, but it's the only one in town.
12
This is fantastic...for Republicans!
Republicans were able to coalesce with Democrats to form a near equal bloc to the "majority".
220-215 -- and people have only had 12 months of indigestible Democrat policies to live through!
Boy, I can't wait to see what it's going to be like in 2010 if its this close in 2009!
Go Team Red!
This is fantastic...for Republicans!
Republicans were able to coalesce with Democrats to form a near equal bloc to the "majority".
220-215 -- and people have only had 12 months of indigestible Democrat policies to live through!
Boy, I can't wait to see what it's going to be like in 2010 if its this close in 2009!
Go Team Red!
13
I'll give him a 6.5. If the Politico commenter really wanted to go for the gold, he would've written "Obama bin Laden."
15
Can't wait to watch pro-business, pro-"real American" Republican heads explode, even though health care reform could spark a lot of entrepreneurship in this country. I mean, think of how many people are beholden to employers they don't like or dead end jobs because they're too scared to go start something new and, heaven forbid, get really sick or in an accident without the safety of (lousy) employer-provided insurance.
But we all know what the "problem" really is, a bunch of entitled anglo assholes who revile our Evil Darky Kenyan Overlord. I mean c'mon, isn't there a war he could be starting or something...?
But we all know what the "problem" really is, a bunch of entitled anglo assholes who revile our Evil Darky Kenyan Overlord. I mean c'mon, isn't there a war he could be starting or something...?
16
The ideas behind health-care reform are at the very heart of the principles of the Democratic Party, and worth staking your political career on. At one point the Dems thought they had 225 votes. I guess "finessing" is a serviceable collective word for the individual acts of cowardice, with the bailers like cockroaches when the light goes on.
There are probably even more Dems among the yeas at the final tally who were dithering beforehand, waited too long, and realized that, even worse than voting for it (for their particular futures in a wobbly district) or voting against it (for going against principles) would be being the skunk who took the vote count below 218.
Yeah, I'm glad it passed. And it is way better than nothing. But come on. The House bill should have been easy. It doesn't bode well for the joint bill, at all.
There are probably even more Dems among the yeas at the final tally who were dithering beforehand, waited too long, and realized that, even worse than voting for it (for their particular futures in a wobbly district) or voting against it (for going against principles) would be being the skunk who took the vote count below 218.
Yeah, I'm glad it passed. And it is way better than nothing. But come on. The House bill should have been easy. It doesn't bode well for the joint bill, at all.
18
@12 - I would bet a fair number of the Democrats that voted no on this bill only voted no as a matter of principle because it didn't go far enough, i.e. it's not single payer. Not because they agree in any way with Republicans. But you keep dreaming!
19
The biggest failure in all this is that the Democrats - including Obama - still have no goddamn clue how to bargain effectively. They came out of the gate with a watered down version of what the leadership really wanted hoping that they could get Republicans to be reasonable and they could just pass the pre-compromise out of the gate. Wrong. Damn. Strategy. Especially with people who cling to laissez faire like velcro (at least in rhetoric if not in practice). They should've started out with what they really wanted and then "caved" to what they thought they'd get.
I hope they learn this lesson when it comes to energy and food reform. Though I know they won't.
I hope they learn this lesson when it comes to energy and food reform. Though I know they won't.
20
Not being American, or much of an expert on the workings of American politics: what are the odds that the Dems could introduce amendments later on (i.e. after the health care reform has passed) that would lift/alleviate the abortion-related limits in the current bill? The prohibition in the current legislation strikes me as being very similar to the Dubya-era prohibitions against medical centres that provide abortion facilities or in any way "promote" abortion and contraception (versus the bigot-approved "let's all pretend no one in the world ever has sex, ever", "stick your head in the sand LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU" bullshit)?
21
Politics is a ratchet game people. We didn't get everything we want this time, but we'll hopefully make a big jump in the right direction. I say fuck yeah, high five Democrats. By the way, does anyone else really like Nancy Pelosi? She fought hard for this and won. I feel like a lot of people dislike her for no good reason.
23
I hope that baby-taxing health care extends to all the American eagles that are falling dead from the sky with shame.
24
I love watching tea baggers suffer. Love it. This isn't perfect, but it's the fucking FIRST STEP. Suffer tea baggers suffer.
25
16
"The ideas behind health-care reform are at the very heart of the principles of the Democratic Party"
exactly.
Robbing individuals of their initiative and self-reliance and making them dependent on the government while simultaneously bankrupting the nation.
"The ideas behind health-care reform are at the very heart of the principles of the Democratic Party"
exactly.
Robbing individuals of their initiative and self-reliance and making them dependent on the government while simultaneously bankrupting the nation.
26
19
I seem to recall some folks expressing concern with Obama's TOTAL lack of experience (not that community organizer and state legislator are not perfectly nice jobs...) but Dan assured us it would be ok...
I seem to recall some folks expressing concern with Obama's TOTAL lack of experience (not that community organizer and state legislator are not perfectly nice jobs...) but Dan assured us it would be ok...
27
Godam the Fucking Congress.
Making women Pay with their Own Money to kill their Babies.
Heartless Stingy Bastards.
Making women Pay with their Own Money to kill their Babies.
Heartless Stingy Bastards.
30
Suffer teabaggers INDEED. They're all HOMOsexuals. And that's GROSS! Next thing you know they'll be called fisters for freedom!
31
Sadly, the public option and the marketplace do not take effect until 2013. Just stupid!
If they are not going to fund all of women's reproductive issues, they need to stop funding men's. No erectile dysfunction treatments or drugs! If men can't get it up, it is because Jesus does not want you to. Just accept it it and pray more, dumb asses!
If they are not going to fund all of women's reproductive issues, they need to stop funding men's. No erectile dysfunction treatments or drugs! If men can't get it up, it is because Jesus does not want you to. Just accept it it and pray more, dumb asses!
32
Bitch, bitch, bitch. A sweeping overhaul of the health care system just passed thru the House with lots of great shit in it and the bill will likely improve once it hits the Senate... and you people BITCH. You find that *one* aspect of it that didn't go your way because they had to make concessions with the other side and you harp on and on about it. STFU.
What, is it, like, "cool" to be all surly about everything??You're like a bunch of 13-year-olds.
What, is it, like, "cool" to be all surly about everything??You're like a bunch of 13-year-olds.
33
@ 32, Women have a right in the world to bitch.
The muthafuckers will underwrite Bob Dole's stiffy but they don't want to pay for welfare, education, comprehensive sex ed, child support enforcement, child care subsidies for the working poor, family planning, or access to reproductive health care. Rep. Shaddeg actually had the gall to say (through his grand-kid), "Pay for your own healthcare!" all the while getting his life-time, gold-plated healthcare coverage paid for by us suckers known as the taxpayers! I believe this is the same douche who said he didn't see why the public option needed pre-natal or obstretic care because he didn't need it!
Hell, fucking, yes we're bitching! We have every damn right to bitch! Goddamn worthless limp-cock sniveling assholes!
The muthafuckers will underwrite Bob Dole's stiffy but they don't want to pay for welfare, education, comprehensive sex ed, child support enforcement, child care subsidies for the working poor, family planning, or access to reproductive health care. Rep. Shaddeg actually had the gall to say (through his grand-kid), "Pay for your own healthcare!" all the while getting his life-time, gold-plated healthcare coverage paid for by us suckers known as the taxpayers! I believe this is the same douche who said he didn't see why the public option needed pre-natal or obstretic care because he didn't need it!
Hell, fucking, yes we're bitching! We have every damn right to bitch! Goddamn worthless limp-cock sniveling assholes!
36
So what's in the bill? Oh that's right, no one here fucking nows.
And girls...pay for your own fucking abortions.
And girls...pay for your own fucking abortions.
37
Somebody please start a list of right wing morons who will swear never to partake of the public option as their health care provider to "save" America.
38
@ 36,
And guys for your own damn child support instead of expecting the taxpayer to do it in the form of welfare.
And guys for your own damn child support instead of expecting the taxpayer to do it in the form of welfare.
41
This is a great day. All of the Right Wing sock puppet whining doesn't change that we've made a huge step toward making health care equitable in this country.
And dear sock puppet all the fear mongering in the world wont change the fact that every other first world country in the world has public health care, and they are just fine. In fact, they are better off than the USA.
So @12 & 24-29, why do you hate America? You seem want us to keep having the worst health care in the developed world. You want hard working American families to declare bankruptcy when they get sick. The freedom to be ruined financially, and/or be killed by robber barons is the only freedom you are fighting for. Suck it. It was the right way for the house to vote, and soon public health care will be as popular as Medicare. And you'll have to pretend you were on our side to get any of your Republicans elected.
And dear sock puppet all the fear mongering in the world wont change the fact that every other first world country in the world has public health care, and they are just fine. In fact, they are better off than the USA.
So @12 & 24-29, why do you hate America? You seem want us to keep having the worst health care in the developed world. You want hard working American families to declare bankruptcy when they get sick. The freedom to be ruined financially, and/or be killed by robber barons is the only freedom you are fighting for. Suck it. It was the right way for the house to vote, and soon public health care will be as popular as Medicare. And you'll have to pretend you were on our side to get any of your Republicans elected.
43
I haven't waded through the hundreds of pages of this legislation, but a couple of sticking points for me.
It contains federal mandates for individuals to become customers of the private insurance companies, or face a fine of 2.5% of your gross annual income.
Therefore this "reform" creates tens of billions of dollars of new business for private insurance companies. Those dollars come from the poorest citizens.
There is no provision to allow for single-payer systems to emerge anywhere.
The "public option" is not really an option for most of the people who need it. It will help something less than five percent of the population.
From all appearances this seems to be a boondoggle at best. At worst it's a scheme to further polarize America's wealth distribution. I don't understand why anyone is excited about this. It it only because we've managed to do something rather than nothing? Change for the sake of change?
It contains federal mandates for individuals to become customers of the private insurance companies, or face a fine of 2.5% of your gross annual income.
Therefore this "reform" creates tens of billions of dollars of new business for private insurance companies. Those dollars come from the poorest citizens.
There is no provision to allow for single-payer systems to emerge anywhere.
The "public option" is not really an option for most of the people who need it. It will help something less than five percent of the population.
From all appearances this seems to be a boondoggle at best. At worst it's a scheme to further polarize America's wealth distribution. I don't understand why anyone is excited about this. It it only because we've managed to do something rather than nothing? Change for the sake of change?
44
@41
They like the status quo because they've gotten rich off it. The "freedom" they are fighting for is the freedom to *legally* milk the common man. Fuck 'em. Game's up, assholes. You're gonna start losing now.
They like the status quo because they've gotten rich off it. The "freedom" they are fighting for is the freedom to *legally* milk the common man. Fuck 'em. Game's up, assholes. You're gonna start losing now.
46
"It contains federal mandates for individuals to become customers of the private insurance companies, or face a fine of 2.5% of your gross annual income."
You can hear the baristas squealing now! I can't wait 'til all the 20-something hipsters realize that, oh shit, I have to get insurance and pay for it?
You can hear the baristas squealing now! I can't wait 'til all the 20-something hipsters realize that, oh shit, I have to get insurance and pay for it?
47
"From all appearances this seems to be a boondoggle at best. At worst it's a scheme to further polarize America's wealth distribution. "
Shhhhh Meat Weapon, do you think these morons have actually read the bill? They have 'hope' afterall.
Shhhhh Meat Weapon, do you think these morons have actually read the bill? They have 'hope' afterall.
48
"Game's up, assholes."
I guess you, too, haven't read the bill. As a moderate Dem, it's all peaches and cream for me. No single payer, government run system, no UK style NHS monstrosity. So 5% of the market will be in government hands, no big deal, that's hardly socialism in anyone's book and I grew up under socialism.
Apparently the only people who think Obama is a socialist are the looney left and rabid right. Glad they are all being distracted.
I guess you, too, haven't read the bill. As a moderate Dem, it's all peaches and cream for me. No single payer, government run system, no UK style NHS monstrosity. So 5% of the market will be in government hands, no big deal, that's hardly socialism in anyone's book and I grew up under socialism.
Apparently the only people who think Obama is a socialist are the looney left and rabid right. Glad they are all being distracted.
49
I love how some can speak so cavalierly about women's reproductive choices as being a "casualty" of a better good. Of course, as always, it will be the most vulnerable and financially disadvantaged women who will be affected ...but hey, what's a casualty?
The Dems "big tent" is just too big and unless women's groups like Planned Parenthood and NARAL start to flex their muscle with these anti-choice Dems and with Obama (i.e. threaten to withdraw support) I see even more casualties. Timidity is not an option.
I would also like to see someone introduce an amendment to prohibit federal funding for any Viagra-like drugs -- in my dreams, right?
The Dems "big tent" is just too big and unless women's groups like Planned Parenthood and NARAL start to flex their muscle with these anti-choice Dems and with Obama (i.e. threaten to withdraw support) I see even more casualties. Timidity is not an option.
I would also like to see someone introduce an amendment to prohibit federal funding for any Viagra-like drugs -- in my dreams, right?
50
Wait...
"In the bill's most controversial provision, the government would sell insurance, although the Congressional Budget Office forecasts that premiums for it would be more expensive than for policies sold by private firms."
What the fuck is the point of that then?
"In the bill's most controversial provision, the government would sell insurance, although the Congressional Budget Office forecasts that premiums for it would be more expensive than for policies sold by private firms."
What the fuck is the point of that then?
51
"I love how some can speak so cavalierly about women's reproductive choices as being a "casualty" of a better good. "
If you can't afford the $300 it costs to get vacuumed at PLanned Parenthood, maybe you shouldn't be copulating. Maybe you prefer the far right in charge, I don't. Luckily Obama tossed the looney left overboard when he got elected, so enjoy the swim back to Looney Island.
If you can't afford the $300 it costs to get vacuumed at PLanned Parenthood, maybe you shouldn't be copulating. Maybe you prefer the far right in charge, I don't. Luckily Obama tossed the looney left overboard when he got elected, so enjoy the swim back to Looney Island.
52
@40
You want ONE reason the public option should fund some abortions? How about TWO. Instances of rape. Instances of incest.
I'm willing to bet at least $700 that you have a penis and will never have to do a rape kit at your local precinct and wonder if an STD or, god forbid, a baby was foisted on you.
You want ONE reason the public option should fund some abortions? How about TWO. Instances of rape. Instances of incest.
I'm willing to bet at least $700 that you have a penis and will never have to do a rape kit at your local precinct and wonder if an STD or, god forbid, a baby was foisted on you.
53
49: I'm sorry, but you live in a fantasy world. There is no way that every progressive faction walking away from the table is going to help anyone. The left in this country has become like the People's Front of Judea. "If I don't get exactly what I want on a silver platter, I'm gonna throw a big fucking fit and refuse any reform!" Splitters!
55
Lives of millions of Americans will be improved, but in the end of the day it's all about us, right? As for single-payer, Obama never made any promises to build a single-payer system, so I'm not even sure why that's become an issue. It's never really been on the table. The abortion things sucks, but I don't think we should refuse to improve the lives of millions (including women) because it doesn't live up to the pro-choice ideal. I think there are a lot of smart people on here, but I think the same people are also politically immature. In a system of compromise, ideology is often the first casualty.
56
@52: Thank you. I concur that those are two compelling reasons for federal funding of abortions. Other than that, spare the taxpayer as women have total control over their uteruses.
58
From Bart Stupak's Wikipedia entry;
In response to the Stupak-Pitts Amendment, the blogger Atrios coined the neologism "Stupak" to refer to, "The sepsis commonly experienced after unsafe back alley abortions."
In response to the Stupak-Pitts Amendment, the blogger Atrios coined the neologism "Stupak" to refer to, "The sepsis commonly experienced after unsafe back alley abortions."
59
@52 - and if your two excellent reasons aren't enough to sway anyone with half a brain, I suggest that anybody who is anti-choice take five minutes to scroll through American adoption web sites, and see the thousands of severely physically and mentally impaired babies, children and teenagers that were given up at birth and that now need homes, will likely never get homes, and will continue to cost taxpayers millions more for the rest of their lives, should the children live very long. Some may find it sick and harsh to suggest that given the choice, women with no business being mothers would have aborted these children who now have extremely slim chances of finding a home, but that is the reality. And I don't see anti-choicers running out and adopting, least of all volunteering or working with any of these heartbreaking children, so what is the solution? For taxpayers to continue to pay millions for unwanted children, who will grow up to be problematic adults that will then cost us in myriad ways?
60
@41
What is stopping "hard working American families" from buying good health insurance that will keep them from having to go bankrupt?
Are they mooching off of society?
Or is it too expensive?
What will your precious bill do for them?
REQUIRE them to buy health insurance.
Gee. Why didn't THEY think of that?
What if they can't afford it?
No sweat- they can buy it from the government-
only, (see@50) it's going to cost more than private insurance...
Sorry, pal-
THIS public health care will be about as popular as a gal with three oozing cold sores at the singles' bar.
The bill doesn't kick in until 2013 because Obama is smart enough to know it stinks and hopes to get himself re-elected before the starry eyed credulous Liberals see the price sticker on this lemon.
What is stopping "hard working American families" from buying good health insurance that will keep them from having to go bankrupt?
Are they mooching off of society?
Or is it too expensive?
What will your precious bill do for them?
REQUIRE them to buy health insurance.
Gee. Why didn't THEY think of that?
What if they can't afford it?
No sweat- they can buy it from the government-
only, (see@50) it's going to cost more than private insurance...
Sorry, pal-
THIS public health care will be about as popular as a gal with three oozing cold sores at the singles' bar.
The bill doesn't kick in until 2013 because Obama is smart enough to know it stinks and hopes to get himself re-elected before the starry eyed credulous Liberals see the price sticker on this lemon.
61
Another nail in the coffin of liberalism.
The American people do not want socialism, and the buyer's remorse in regards to the usurper in chief (anyone seen the latest Rasmussen poll?) Is growing by the day.
The Marxists who crafted this boondoggle will be voted out next year, and conservative loyal Americans will be swept in to clean up the mess made by Barack Hussein Osama.
But now that he can smell victory, it is more than a fleeting possibility that he will find a pretext to cancel the elections, which is why patriots should stock up on ammunition and weaponry right away.
The American people do not want socialism, and the buyer's remorse in regards to the usurper in chief (anyone seen the latest Rasmussen poll?) Is growing by the day.
The Marxists who crafted this boondoggle will be voted out next year, and conservative loyal Americans will be swept in to clean up the mess made by Barack Hussein Osama.
But now that he can smell victory, it is more than a fleeting possibility that he will find a pretext to cancel the elections, which is why patriots should stock up on ammunition and weaponry right away.
65
@59
Nursing homes are full of expensive physically and mentally impaired old people. Can we off them as well?
Nursing homes are full of expensive physically and mentally impaired old people. Can we off them as well?
66
61: You use a lot of words you don't know the meaning of. You're no lord, Basil. You're more of a intellectual serf.
67
@59: So abortions are better than unwanted children? I totally disagree. Nobody wants an unwanted child, but it's a better than a dead child.
Among those unwanted children are some very great adults to be, if not all. Whether they're a burden on society is totally irrelevant. We're not talking about controlling stray cats here.
Among those unwanted children are some very great adults to be, if not all. Whether they're a burden on society is totally irrelevant. We're not talking about controlling stray cats here.
68
"We're not talking about controlling stray cats here."
The net effect is the same, only more costly and damaging.
The net effect is the same, only more costly and damaging.
71
@ 67 -My response was because you wanted "one good reason" why your tax dollars should pay for abortions. If you're fine with spending millions more of your tax dollars on the welfare of children and grownups who were brought into this world unloved, unwanted and who never stand a chance, then I guess my answer is moot.
72
"Congratulation Democrats. You just killed our country. Collectively you have done more damaged than Osama Bin ladin could have dreamed of."
God, conservatives are drama queens. Overwrought, hysterical ninnies who make grandiose statements and expect to be taken seriously. Some of our regular commenter are living up to that standard as well, I see.
As for abortion, anyone who thought for a second that it would be covered under this program is a fool. Yes, it's a legal procedure, but half the country disapproves of it. (Not me. Have all the abortions you want as far as I'm concerned. I think it is a stupid moral argument, and a hypocritical one at that: The same people who so vigorously defend the fetus, don't give a damn about it when it becomes a human and leaves the womb). If abortion has to go under the bus to provide decent prenatal care and other basic necessities of life, I guess that's the way it has to be. Maybe once some of these screaming ninnies have died, the topic might be intelligently addressed, but not right now.
Since the Catholic church is probably one of the biggest operators of hospitals in the nation, and it seems to have given up all of it's other teachings in favor of nagging people about abortion and homos, of course they came down on that hard. But with their numbers waning, and as even more practicing Catholics find their church to be irrelevant and ridiculous, maybe that will change. It wouldn't be the first time the supposed moral authority of the church was altered to keep people filling the collection box - and they need that money more than ever now, to pay off victims of their clergy.
Interestingly enough, the assistant pastor at my mom's church - which is located in that ridiculous Steve King's congressional district - apparently gave a old-fashioned, fire-and-brimstone sermon about how Catholics should be all in favor of universal single-payer health care for all (and didn't even mention abortion!). That was pretty ballsy thing for any Catholic clergy to say, but especially in that brain-dead part of the country. He'll probably find himself transferred to a mission soon.
More...
God, conservatives are drama queens. Overwrought, hysterical ninnies who make grandiose statements and expect to be taken seriously. Some of our regular commenter are living up to that standard as well, I see.
As for abortion, anyone who thought for a second that it would be covered under this program is a fool. Yes, it's a legal procedure, but half the country disapproves of it. (Not me. Have all the abortions you want as far as I'm concerned. I think it is a stupid moral argument, and a hypocritical one at that: The same people who so vigorously defend the fetus, don't give a damn about it when it becomes a human and leaves the womb). If abortion has to go under the bus to provide decent prenatal care and other basic necessities of life, I guess that's the way it has to be. Maybe once some of these screaming ninnies have died, the topic might be intelligently addressed, but not right now.
Since the Catholic church is probably one of the biggest operators of hospitals in the nation, and it seems to have given up all of it's other teachings in favor of nagging people about abortion and homos, of course they came down on that hard. But with their numbers waning, and as even more practicing Catholics find their church to be irrelevant and ridiculous, maybe that will change. It wouldn't be the first time the supposed moral authority of the church was altered to keep people filling the collection box - and they need that money more than ever now, to pay off victims of their clergy.
Interestingly enough, the assistant pastor at my mom's church - which is located in that ridiculous Steve King's congressional district - apparently gave a old-fashioned, fire-and-brimstone sermon about how Catholics should be all in favor of universal single-payer health care for all (and didn't even mention abortion!). That was pretty ballsy thing for any Catholic clergy to say, but especially in that brain-dead part of the country. He'll probably find himself transferred to a mission soon.
73
Hey totally pro choice here, but face it, the pro choice movement is losing the battle on the ground and tareting antichoice dems will only result in replacing them with antichoice GOP legislators until the choice movement convinces more people to be pro choice.
Btw that word choice isn't working any more. Maybe all the pictures of sonograms are beating the vague concept of choice?
Maybe just push for morning after and reduce need for abortions, too, because really, where is the plan to win the argument against sonogram pictures? There is no plan except for that tired, losing meme of choice.
Now go forth and figure out how to win the argument so people in the conservadem districts come over to our side.
That is all.
Btw that word choice isn't working any more. Maybe all the pictures of sonograms are beating the vague concept of choice?
Maybe just push for morning after and reduce need for abortions, too, because really, where is the plan to win the argument against sonogram pictures? There is no plan except for that tired, losing meme of choice.
Now go forth and figure out how to win the argument so people in the conservadem districts come over to our side.
That is all.
74
Why do you guys keep talking about tax payers paying for abortions? The Stupak amendment bans PRIVATE COMPANIES from providing abortion coverage as well. So what's your point now? Private companies shouldn't have the right to cover a legal medical procedure because you don't deem it worthy? Who's getting between a patient a doctor now?
75
@71: I'll repeat. Whether unwanted children are a burden on society is totally irrelevant to 1: having a abortion, and 2: whether the govt. should pay for it.
Nevertheless, thanks for the debate.
Nevertheless, thanks for the debate.
76
Please have all brainless blobs, two headed freaks of nature and all the myriad of birth defects that can be made to survive supported and paid for by the religious fanatics and their churches. Once those hypocrites get the bill I bet they won't be so anti-abortion.
77
Totally wasted interjection: Abortion does not produce a "dead child." Abortion is the destruction of a cluster of cells that COULD become a child, or of a not-to-term, nonviable fetus. That ain't a DEAD CHILD, with all the associated horror and sorrow.
79
What about abortions done for the health of the mother? Who pays for that? Most of you seem to think this category doesn't even exist. My most recent case: 20 weeks, bleeding from a separating placenta, bleeding so badly we were transfusing her. Why shouldn't that be paid for? Or are we gonna be like Brazil, where even if you have an ectopic (e.g., tubal) pregnancy you don't get the surgery to save your life....because even then it's not legal.
80
What about a fetus with a lethal defect like anencephaly or Trisomy 18? Why shouldn't that be paid for?
81
Does this mean that woman will no longer be able to obtain an abortion under Medicaid, as they are presently able to?
82
Kim, right now it's actually only about 20 states, including Oregon and Washington, where a Medicaid recipient can get an abortion under her plan without proving rape, incest, or health reasons. A good resource for more information is the National Abortion Federation:
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/…
Unfortunately, we tend to cast this as a "choice" issue, while most of what I see are health issues. "Choice" is cheap---we can do that for pennies. Really. What's expensive are the later procedures for serious anomalies discovered on ultrasound or genetic abnormalities incompatible with life or the really sick pregnant women who need a termination for bleeding, blood pressure, infection, etc.
I'm afraid we'll go back to the pre-Roe situation, where wealthy women get what they need, and poor women and their families suffer.
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/…
Unfortunately, we tend to cast this as a "choice" issue, while most of what I see are health issues. "Choice" is cheap---we can do that for pennies. Really. What's expensive are the later procedures for serious anomalies discovered on ultrasound or genetic abnormalities incompatible with life or the really sick pregnant women who need a termination for bleeding, blood pressure, infection, etc.
I'm afraid we'll go back to the pre-Roe situation, where wealthy women get what they need, and poor women and their families suffer.
84
79
What percentage of abortions are done for the health of the mother? How common are cases like you cite?
What percentage of abortions are done for the health of the mother? How common are cases like you cite?
85
52
The news are saying that the Stupak Amendment allows funding for abortion in cases of rape and incest. Does anyone know if this is so?
The news are saying that the Stupak Amendment allows funding for abortion in cases of rape and incest. Does anyone know if this is so?
87
@82 - exactly. We will have a class of women who are rich enough to get their abortion, then go back to being "pro-life" after their abortion is over. Meanwhile poor women & young teens will be forced to have an unwanted child, stop or delay their schooling or quit their job, thus keeping them down in the lower-class for the rest of their lives.
In a previous state of residence, where abortion clinics could be counted on 1 hand, and where Medicaid did not pay for abortions, I cannot tell you how many students I ended up with who suffered from FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome), had been crack babies, etc. It's shocking to have an 18 year old come into your classroom to pick up her 6 year old child, the product of a gang rape by her own stepfather and his buddies. And people don't see why taxpayers should pay for an abortion? Trust me, an abortion costs the taxpayers WAY less than educating some of these children with severe disabilities. The medical care for one of my students whose mom was a crack whore and whose john beat her continuously throughout her pregnancy was easily over $100,000 a year - all at the taxpayers expense. The nearest abortion clinic was 100 miles away and an abortion would have cost $600-700. $600,000 vs $600? Think about that one and decide what you'd rather pay for.
Personally, I don't really care for my tax dollars paying for Viagra and other erectile dysfunction drugs, particularly when the use of those drugs leads right back to the need for birth control and abortion. Sorry guys, but you're sure as hell not going to die just because you can't get it up. Meanwhile a woman's life may be threatened for a variety of reasons (preeclampsia, placenta previa, non-stop bleeding, etc.) and an abortion may be the only way to save her live. Yet here I am, paying my tax dollars so that Senators like Vitter can get his little blue pill to get it up for both his hookers and his wife.
More...
In a previous state of residence, where abortion clinics could be counted on 1 hand, and where Medicaid did not pay for abortions, I cannot tell you how many students I ended up with who suffered from FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome), had been crack babies, etc. It's shocking to have an 18 year old come into your classroom to pick up her 6 year old child, the product of a gang rape by her own stepfather and his buddies. And people don't see why taxpayers should pay for an abortion? Trust me, an abortion costs the taxpayers WAY less than educating some of these children with severe disabilities. The medical care for one of my students whose mom was a crack whore and whose john beat her continuously throughout her pregnancy was easily over $100,000 a year - all at the taxpayers expense. The nearest abortion clinic was 100 miles away and an abortion would have cost $600-700. $600,000 vs $600? Think about that one and decide what you'd rather pay for.
Personally, I don't really care for my tax dollars paying for Viagra and other erectile dysfunction drugs, particularly when the use of those drugs leads right back to the need for birth control and abortion. Sorry guys, but you're sure as hell not going to die just because you can't get it up. Meanwhile a woman's life may be threatened for a variety of reasons (preeclampsia, placenta previa, non-stop bleeding, etc.) and an abortion may be the only way to save her live. Yet here I am, paying my tax dollars so that Senators like Vitter can get his little blue pill to get it up for both his hookers and his wife.
88
@40 Here's one more, that counts for abortions outside instances of rape and incest which, should really be enough reasons in and of itself.
It's cheaper to pay for an abortion than it is to perform live-saving surgery on a woman who got a dangerous, back-yard abortion because she couldn't afford to pay out of pocket for one. It's also cheaper to pay for an abortion than it is to lose a young woman's life, a young woman who will grow up, grow old and be paying taxes every year she does so.
Restricting access to abortions, or making them more expensive doesn't stop women from having them, it just puts women in danger. Sure, in a perfect world we wouldn't have any abortions, but the world isn't perfect.
It's cheaper to pay for an abortion than it is to perform live-saving surgery on a woman who got a dangerous, back-yard abortion because she couldn't afford to pay out of pocket for one. It's also cheaper to pay for an abortion than it is to lose a young woman's life, a young woman who will grow up, grow old and be paying taxes every year she does so.
Restricting access to abortions, or making them more expensive doesn't stop women from having them, it just puts women in danger. Sure, in a perfect world we wouldn't have any abortions, but the world isn't perfect.
89
I am sick of the entitlement attitude this Country has. This Country is broke, no jobs and all the libs want is to put this Country back into the dark ages. Why don't you Socialist quit complaining and grow up. Hard work, prayer in Christ is all we have ever needed and will need. God used to bless this Country but no anymore. Get ready for Gods wrath and get on your knees as I have it is the only way to get our Country back.
90
"It's shocking to have an 18 year old come into your classroom to pick up her 6 year old child, the product of a gang rape by her own stepfather and his buddies. "
Trust me, trailer trash like that are poster children for retro abortions as well. The fewer babies the poor can squirt out, the better. I'd rather pay $500 to have some baby mama vacuumed then raise their fucked up off spring, who will do nothing but suck on the welfare state, steal my fucking car and turn huge swaths of this country into no-go zones.
Trust me, trailer trash like that are poster children for retro abortions as well. The fewer babies the poor can squirt out, the better. I'd rather pay $500 to have some baby mama vacuumed then raise their fucked up off spring, who will do nothing but suck on the welfare state, steal my fucking car and turn huge swaths of this country into no-go zones.
92
Shit, I don't just want federally financed abortions for the poor, I want them to hit the 'hoods and start searching for pregnant, unwed baby mamas and offer them a new set of rims for the Civic in exchange for a free abortion....and be sure the offer is available in Spanish too. Save us tax payers some $$ for funding another generation of gang bangers and chollos.
93
While we're at it, free abortions for fat chicks too. I'm sick and tired of fighting to keep them out of my seat on flights and sick of their fat fucking diabetic kids. Again, one years free dinner at MacDonalds in exchange for a free, federally financed abortion.
94
@59
see the thousands of severely physically and mentally impaired babies, will likely never get homes,
i am pretty sure if you ask those kids who are taking up the system if they would have rather been aborted or born, the majority of them would prefer to be alive.
and will continue to cost taxpayers millions more for the rest of their lives, should the children live very long
so you support spending money on abortions, but not on people who need financial assistance who are alive? wtf?
women with no business being mothers
When were you elected as "the decider" of who is fit to give birth? Talk about body control.
And I don't see anti-choicers running out and adopting
[citation needed] (or is your presupposition and prejudice sufficient? )
For taxpayers to continue to pay millions for unwanted children, who will grow up to be problematic adults that will then cost us in myriad ways?
you are a sick deranged misanthrope. and gross.
see the thousands of severely physically and mentally impaired babies, will likely never get homes,
i am pretty sure if you ask those kids who are taking up the system if they would have rather been aborted or born, the majority of them would prefer to be alive.
and will continue to cost taxpayers millions more for the rest of their lives, should the children live very long
so you support spending money on abortions, but not on people who need financial assistance who are alive? wtf?
women with no business being mothers
When were you elected as "the decider" of who is fit to give birth? Talk about body control.
And I don't see anti-choicers running out and adopting
[citation needed] (or is your presupposition and prejudice sufficient? )
For taxpayers to continue to pay millions for unwanted children, who will grow up to be problematic adults that will then cost us in myriad ways?
you are a sick deranged misanthrope. and gross.
95
@56,
So we can assume you have or plan to adopt some special needs kids yourself?
Good for you that you live in a world where contraception works 100%, there are no teen pregnancies thanks to Ignorance Only Education, no severe birth defects, and no pregnancies ever result from poverty or domestic abuse. Unfortunately, the rest of us don't live in your fantasy land.
So we can assume you have or plan to adopt some special needs kids yourself?
Good for you that you live in a world where contraception works 100%, there are no teen pregnancies thanks to Ignorance Only Education, no severe birth defects, and no pregnancies ever result from poverty or domestic abuse. Unfortunately, the rest of us don't live in your fantasy land.
96
"no pregnancies ever result from poverty"
how does being poor make you pregnant? But I agree with your sentiment; hopefully the government will set up abortion clinics in every poor neighboorhood - FedaBort - and offer incentives for the poor to abort their future offspring aka gangbangers, chollos and trailer trash. I'm sick and tired of supporting these peoples offspring.
how does being poor make you pregnant? But I agree with your sentiment; hopefully the government will set up abortion clinics in every poor neighboorhood - FedaBort - and offer incentives for the poor to abort their future offspring aka gangbangers, chollos and trailer trash. I'm sick and tired of supporting these peoples offspring.
97
Sorry, that should say FedAbort.....free set of rims and/or Playstation with every abortion. Offers available to all unwed mothers under 25 without college degrees. Early bird special if your family has a history of criminal behavior.
98
Jeez Davy (96 andj 97) you sound pretty thrilled with your snarky witty self. But think about this: there's a social justice issue here. If we all have the same rights, but only the wealthy can access them, then what rights do we have at all? Sounds like oligarchy to me.... As an example, everyone has the right to legal counsel, but why should I pay for a poor person to have a lawyer? Because it's simply not right that I as a relatively wealthy person should enjoy the protection of the law if a poor person can't. Hey I didn't believe in our Middle Eastern wars from the get-go. I even think they are immoral. But I pay taxes that go to our war funds. So if a poor woman wants an abortion, why shouldn't her access to a constitutionally protected right be funded, just like her legal access is funded?
And BTW, poverty DOES cause unplanned pregnancy. If you can't figure out why, perhaps your brain is water-logged?
And BTW, poverty DOES cause unplanned pregnancy. If you can't figure out why, perhaps your brain is water-logged?
99
"But think about this: there's a social justice issue here. If we all have the same rights, "
I'm not kidding, I'm totally pro-choice. In fact, I'm so pro-choice, I think FedAbort should offer home visits and at home, on-damand abortions for the poor so they don't even have to interrupt their video gaming or latest episode of 'Cops'. It would save this country billions in welfare, police and jail costs.
I'm not kidding, I'm totally pro-choice. In fact, I'm so pro-choice, I think FedAbort should offer home visits and at home, on-damand abortions for the poor so they don't even have to interrupt their video gaming or latest episode of 'Cops'. It would save this country billions in welfare, police and jail costs.
100
"poverty DOES cause unplanned pregnancy"
I know, you're right again, some people are too stupid to realize that squatting on too many cocks may have adverse side affects. So again, I'm so pro-choice, I want every fed dollar available possible to encourage these women to abort. It would save us tax payers a bundle in the long run if they stop squirting out more socially, useless people.
I know, you're right again, some people are too stupid to realize that squatting on too many cocks may have adverse side affects. So again, I'm so pro-choice, I want every fed dollar available possible to encourage these women to abort. It would save us tax payers a bundle in the long run if they stop squirting out more socially, useless people.
101
"So if a poor woman wants an abortion, why shouldn't her access to a constitutionally protected right be funded, just like her legal access is funded"
It shouldn't! Jesus, can't you read. I absolutely don't want poor people having so many babies. We have enough 16 yr old baby mamas already. I want abortion to be so easy and accessible for them, they won't even have to get off the couch at home to abort. FedAbort will ring the door bell, and let it rip so quickly, the 'mother' can be back watching 'America's Top Model' before the ads are over.
It shouldn't! Jesus, can't you read. I absolutely don't want poor people having so many babies. We have enough 16 yr old baby mamas already. I want abortion to be so easy and accessible for them, they won't even have to get off the couch at home to abort. FedAbort will ring the door bell, and let it rip so quickly, the 'mother' can be back watching 'America's Top Model' before the ads are over.
102
Here's a parallel example of how quickly and efficiently it could be done:
http://tinyurl.com/dxhqbj
http://tinyurl.com/dxhqbj
103
@1 for the win.
America for the lame-assed half-version fail that pretends to be a public option, but is not even close.
America for the lame-assed half-version fail that pretends to be a public option, but is not even close.
104
@103 Quit whining Will, and start acting like a real man, we are now more closer than we were a couple of months before, once this becomes the law we can fix whatever it needs to make it better. But first thing is first, this is the biggest hurdle, lets get through it first.
This is a great milestone but now is not the time to be complacent or start finding faults in it.
The repubics along with lieberman are determined to stop this in the senate, so we the people must take an active role now and start working those phones and emails to let them know that we want this to go as in the senate and to have the President sign it into law as soon as possible.
We need to remind them that we deserve the same type of health care that they get from our tax payer dollars.
This is a great milestone but now is not the time to be complacent or start finding faults in it.
The repubics along with lieberman are determined to stop this in the senate, so we the people must take an active role now and start working those phones and emails to let them know that we want this to go as in the senate and to have the President sign it into law as soon as possible.
We need to remind them that we deserve the same type of health care that they get from our tax payer dollars.
105
BOOOOO!!! This is NOT a fucking victory. It's WORSE than no reform at all. All you idiots who voted and have continued to make excuses for Obama and the Democratic Party have a lot of explaining to do. You voted for change. You got fucked. Health insurance companies are laughing at you fucking idiots. Why vote for Democrats if all they're willing to fight for are right wing proposals?
106
"You voted for change. You got fucked."
Shhhh! Don't tell the looney left that they got thrown overboard by us, centrist Democrats! They are like the rabid right to the Republican Party, useful idiots..... unless they take over like they have in the GOP.
Shhhh! Don't tell the looney left that they got thrown overboard by us, centrist Democrats! They are like the rabid right to the Republican Party, useful idiots..... unless they take over like they have in the GOP.
107
This bill really does suck. In a sane world this would have skated through Congress as minor tweaks to an existing system. It doesn't change any fundamentals.
Fuck the coward Democrats, the idiot GOP, and the god damn Libertarians. Y'all should rot in hell actively creating a worse world.
Fuck the coward Democrats, the idiot GOP, and the god damn Libertarians. Y'all should rot in hell actively creating a worse world.
109
"Fuck the coward Democrats, the idiot GOP, and the god damn Libertarians. Y'all should rot in hell actively creating a worse world."
Angry fella aren't you? Now you see why Obama tossed the looney left overboard as soon as he got elected? Useful idiots that you were before the election.
Angry fella aren't you? Now you see why Obama tossed the looney left overboard as soon as he got elected? Useful idiots that you were before the election.
110
@109- Does living in a first world country which works like third world country really make you happy? Should I be happy because things are LESS BAD when it would be easy for things to actually be GOOD?
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