9:55 AM yesterday
Adversary commented on When Domestic Violence Becomes a Mass Shooting.
@80 Interesting link. I followed from the link you provided to the source document, here:
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/1818…
On pages 22 and 23 it talks about the difference between the methodology of the National Family Violence Survey, and the methodologies of the National Violence Against Women survey and the National Criminal Victimization Survey. (NFVS shows gender parity in committing DV, the others show men as majority perpetrators.)
The difference is, the NFVS asks about both what acts you *committed*, and what acts you were a victim of. The others only ask about victimization. In the NFVS, if a woman says she hit her male partner, that counts as a male victim. But in the other two, a male victim only gets counted if the man himself says he is a victim.
I.e., the evidence for gender parity comes from *women themselves* saying yes, I hit/kicked/threw something at my partner. It stands to reason that men are unlikely to admit being victimized by a woman (or even to perceive the act as an assault). I'd compare this to sexual assault: it is widely accepted that women are reluctant to report sexual assault, due to socialization/shame/etc. The same socialization may lead men to under-report physical assaults by women.
2 other points: regarding murders, while it does seem that more men kill their female partners than vice versa, the discrepancy isn't as extreme as this makes it sound. In 2010, 241 men and 1095 women were killed by intimate partners. That means of the total 1336 people killed by intimate partners, 18% were men. Stating it as a percentage of total murders, rather than looking at the percentage of domestic murders, magnifies the difference, because men are much more likely to be murdered overall.
The number of women who kill their partners may also be understated, because cases where women hire killers, or get boyfriends or some local teenage boys to do the deed may be counted as multiple-perpetrator homicides rather than intimate partner homicides.
Finally, as for the CTS not capturing motives, such as control or coercion, here's a report indicating that motives like anger, control, and jealousy are significant factors in women's use of intimate partner violence: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles…
E.g., one study found that "38% of women who used IPV stated that they had threatened to use violence to make their partners do the things they wanted him to do."
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https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/1818…
On pages 22 and 23 it talks about the difference between the methodology of the National Family Violence Survey, and the methodologies of the National Violence Against Women survey and the National Criminal Victimization Survey. (NFVS shows gender parity in committing DV, the others show men as majority perpetrators.)
The difference is, the NFVS asks about both what acts you *committed*, and what acts you were a victim of. The others only ask about victimization. In the NFVS, if a woman says she hit her male partner, that counts as a male victim. But in the other two, a male victim only gets counted if the man himself says he is a victim.
I.e., the evidence for gender parity comes from *women themselves* saying yes, I hit/kicked/threw something at my partner. It stands to reason that men are unlikely to admit being victimized by a woman (or even to perceive the act as an assault). I'd compare this to sexual assault: it is widely accepted that women are reluctant to report sexual assault, due to socialization/shame/etc. The same socialization may lead men to under-report physical assaults by women.
2 other points: regarding murders, while it does seem that more men kill their female partners than vice versa, the discrepancy isn't as extreme as this makes it sound. In 2010, 241 men and 1095 women were killed by intimate partners. That means of the total 1336 people killed by intimate partners, 18% were men. Stating it as a percentage of total murders, rather than looking at the percentage of domestic murders, magnifies the difference, because men are much more likely to be murdered overall.
The number of women who kill their partners may also be understated, because cases where women hire killers, or get boyfriends or some local teenage boys to do the deed may be counted as multiple-perpetrator homicides rather than intimate partner homicides.
Finally, as for the CTS not capturing motives, such as control or coercion, here's a report indicating that motives like anger, control, and jealousy are significant factors in women's use of intimate partner violence: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles…
E.g., one study found that "38% of women who used IPV stated that they had threatened to use violence to make their partners do the things they wanted him to do."
Jun 17
Adversary commented on When Domestic Violence Becomes a Mass Shooting.
@77 ...and still not one study. I didn't think so.
Jun 17
Adversary commented on When Domestic Violence Becomes a Mass Shooting.
@73 One would think if you could read, you'd read up higher in this very thread @50, links to hundreds of other studies.
E.g., Anderson, K. L. (2002). Perpetrator or victim? Relationships between intimate partner violence and well-being. Journal of Marriage and Family, 64, 851-863. (Data consisted of 7,395 married and cohabiting heterosexual couples drawn from wave 1 of the National Survey of Families and Households . In terms of measures: subjects were asked "how many arguments during the past year resulted in 'you hitting, shoving or throwing things at a partner.' They were also asked how many arguments ended with their partner, 'hitting, shoving or throwing things at you.'" Author reports that, "victimization rates are slightly higher among men than women <9% vs 7%> and in cases that involve perpetration by only one partner, more women than men were identified as perpetrators <2% vs 1%>.")
And Arias, I., Samios, M., & O'Leary, K. D. (1987). Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates <95 men, 175 women> and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)
"In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles…
So how about this: all you smug assholes with your sexist ideas about men as brutes and women as innocent victims, give me one--just one--study showing men as, let's say, 80% of the perpetrators of domestic violence. This must be a social science (not criminological) study with a significant sample size, done by an independent governmental or academic body (not an advocacy group). C'mon, you can do it. I've given you hundreds of studies. You're so sure of yourselves. I am sure you have facts to back it up.
Come on, just one little study.
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E.g., Anderson, K. L. (2002). Perpetrator or victim? Relationships between intimate partner violence and well-being. Journal of Marriage and Family, 64, 851-863. (Data consisted of 7,395 married and cohabiting heterosexual couples drawn from wave 1 of the National Survey of Families and Households . In terms of measures: subjects were asked "how many arguments during the past year resulted in 'you hitting, shoving or throwing things at a partner.' They were also asked how many arguments ended with their partner, 'hitting, shoving or throwing things at you.'" Author reports that, "victimization rates are slightly higher among men than women <9% vs 7%> and in cases that involve perpetration by only one partner, more women than men were identified as perpetrators <2% vs 1%>.")
And Arias, I., Samios, M., & O'Leary, K. D. (1987). Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates <95 men, 175 women> and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)
"In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles…
So how about this: all you smug assholes with your sexist ideas about men as brutes and women as innocent victims, give me one--just one--study showing men as, let's say, 80% of the perpetrators of domestic violence. This must be a social science (not criminological) study with a significant sample size, done by an independent governmental or academic body (not an advocacy group). C'mon, you can do it. I've given you hundreds of studies. You're so sure of yourselves. I am sure you have facts to back it up.
Come on, just one little study.
Jun 16
Adversary commented on When Domestic Violence Becomes a Mass Shooting.
Another thought about why articles about DV turn into "giant bitch fests" over stats:
Suppose people regularly wrote articles proclaiming that the vast bulk of child sexual abuse was committed by gay men. I would certainly hope that each and every one of those articles turned into "giant bitch fests" over stats. Similarly, each and every article proclaiming global warming a myth should turn into a "giant bitch fest" over the stats/science.
As long as people keep hiding the ball on the facts, the bitch fest will continue.
Suppose people regularly wrote articles proclaiming that the vast bulk of child sexual abuse was committed by gay men. I would certainly hope that each and every one of those articles turned into "giant bitch fests" over stats. Similarly, each and every article proclaiming global warming a myth should turn into a "giant bitch fest" over the stats/science.
As long as people keep hiding the ball on the facts, the bitch fest will continue.
Jun 14
Adversary commented on When Domestic Violence Becomes a Mass Shooting.
@63 Sure, that is the way it is supposed to work. You are naive if you think it works that way in practice. I am a criminal defense attorney who used to practice in Washington State. I rarely ever saw a woman prosecuted for DV, and saw a lot of questionable prosecutions of men.
Here's a study in one major city that found that 47% of women arrested for DV against a male intimate partner had their cases dismissed by the prosecutor; another 16% were dismissed by the judge. "Female defendants arrested for offending against a male intimate partner were treated more leniently than male defendants and women arrested for domestic offenses involving other types of relationships..."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16180…
Have you heard of the "primary aggressor" doctrine? See, what happened is, feminists got mandatory arrest laws passed, requiring police to make an arrest if they had probable cause to believe domestic violence had occurred. To the feminists' surprise, this led to "a proportionately greater increase in arrests of women compared to men...." So they argued for a policy of requiring police to determine who the "primary aggressor" was.
Here's a study that found that "primary aggressor and dominant aggressor laws, although written in gender-neutral language, are gender biased (mostly against men)..."
http://www.batteredmen.com/HamelDomAggre…
But I guess you didn't know about this?
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Here's a study in one major city that found that 47% of women arrested for DV against a male intimate partner had their cases dismissed by the prosecutor; another 16% were dismissed by the judge. "Female defendants arrested for offending against a male intimate partner were treated more leniently than male defendants and women arrested for domestic offenses involving other types of relationships..."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16180…
Have you heard of the "primary aggressor" doctrine? See, what happened is, feminists got mandatory arrest laws passed, requiring police to make an arrest if they had probable cause to believe domestic violence had occurred. To the feminists' surprise, this led to "a proportionately greater increase in arrests of women compared to men...." So they argued for a policy of requiring police to determine who the "primary aggressor" was.
Here's a study that found that "primary aggressor and dominant aggressor laws, although written in gender-neutral language, are gender biased (mostly against men)..."
http://www.batteredmen.com/HamelDomAggre…
But I guess you didn't know about this?
Jun 14
Adversary commented on When Domestic Violence Becomes a Mass Shooting.
@59 Don't you think that "Understanding what the problem is" should precede "Doing something about the problem"? If you believe the problem is 95% men abusing women, like @41 thought, that suggests pretty different solutions than if you believe that women initiate most violence in relationships, and are most often injured after violence they initiated. Which is what the research I've cited actually shows.
If that research is correct, "Doing something about the problem" could mean *arresting more women for domestic violence.* For one thing, they are starting it; simple justice demands they get arrested. For another, put yourself in the shoes of a man whose female partner gets crazy and violent with him. The one thing he *cannot* do under present conditions is call the police. If he does, he'll be the one to go to jail.
So, without law enforcement to turn to, he may wind up defending himself in a way that hurts her. Paradoxically, if men knew that they would get fair treatment from cops and courts (rather than confronting a system that believes they are the abusers 95% of the time), fewer women would get hurt.
I agree, let's do something about the problem. Let's arrest the real-life Sandra Ohs and Carrie Underwoods of the world.
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If that research is correct, "Doing something about the problem" could mean *arresting more women for domestic violence.* For one thing, they are starting it; simple justice demands they get arrested. For another, put yourself in the shoes of a man whose female partner gets crazy and violent with him. The one thing he *cannot* do under present conditions is call the police. If he does, he'll be the one to go to jail.
So, without law enforcement to turn to, he may wind up defending himself in a way that hurts her. Paradoxically, if men knew that they would get fair treatment from cops and courts (rather than confronting a system that believes they are the abusers 95% of the time), fewer women would get hurt.
I agree, let's do something about the problem. Let's arrest the real-life Sandra Ohs and Carrie Underwoods of the world.
Jun 13
Adversary commented on When Domestic Violence Becomes a Mass Shooting.
@54 read the Huffpo link. "...the most likely [scenario] to result in future injury to women is when she initiates violence against him and he responds..."
'...of women who were in a battered women's shelter, "67% of the women reported severe violence toward their partner in the past year."'
Women getting hurt because they attacked their partners is rather a different picture than women getting beaten by abusive men, wouldn't you say? The fact that you needed medical care doesn't mean you aren't the one at fault.
Earlier in this comment thread we had someone who teaches a safe dating curriculum talking about women as victims 95% of the time. That is far from true. Anyone who truly cares about reducing intimate partner violence, not to mention not unfairly stigmatizing men and boys as violent abusers, should care about what the real data says.
'...of women who were in a battered women's shelter, "67% of the women reported severe violence toward their partner in the past year."'
Women getting hurt because they attacked their partners is rather a different picture than women getting beaten by abusive men, wouldn't you say? The fact that you needed medical care doesn't mean you aren't the one at fault.
Earlier in this comment thread we had someone who teaches a safe dating curriculum talking about women as victims 95% of the time. That is far from true. Anyone who truly cares about reducing intimate partner violence, not to mention not unfairly stigmatizing men and boys as violent abusers, should care about what the real data says.
Jun 13
Adversary commented on When Domestic Violence Becomes a Mass Shooting.
@51 Not talking about what you think I should be talking about is not "glossing something over." Accurately reporting figures from reputable studies is not "lying." You sure are touchy when your sexist stereotypes (men are brutes, women are innocent victims) are threatened.
You are entitled to prioritize and place more value on some numbers than I do, just like I am entitled to think other numbers carry more weight. But you aren't entitled to your own facts. The numbers on use of violence are there in black and white and I have cited them accurately. Stamping your feet like a toddler because it isn't what you want to hear isn't going to change anything. Don't blame me, blame the hundreds of social science researchers who are doing the studies.
You are entitled to prioritize and place more value on some numbers than I do, just like I am entitled to think other numbers carry more weight. But you aren't entitled to your own facts. The numbers on use of violence are there in black and white and I have cited them accurately. Stamping your feet like a toddler because it isn't what you want to hear isn't going to change anything. Don't blame me, blame the hundreds of social science researchers who are doing the studies.
Jun 13
Adversary commented on When Domestic Violence Becomes a Mass Shooting.
Delirian, what is your fucking problem? The report says exactly what I said it says: men experience as much or more intimate partner violence as women. If you think other numbers in the report are more important, make your case. Personally I think the counterintuitive fact that women hit men as much or more as men hit women, in a world where most people believe men are more violent by far (and where that has major legal and social consequences), is pretty important.
And it isn't just this study. I cite this one because it comes straight from the government, so it doesn't get attacked as some kind of MRA conspiracy. But if you'd like some other studies confirming women's violence, here's a link to 286 of them, with 371,600 total participants:
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.h…
Here's a nice link from noted MRA serpents' nest, The Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/glenn-sack…
That last one shows that the biggest risk factor for women getting injured (which I guess is what you are latching onto, that women are more likely to be injured) is women's own initiation of violence.
Relationship violence is a problem. But it isn't the one-sided problem of men abusing women that it is portrayed as.
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And it isn't just this study. I cite this one because it comes straight from the government, so it doesn't get attacked as some kind of MRA conspiracy. But if you'd like some other studies confirming women's violence, here's a link to 286 of them, with 371,600 total participants:
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.h…
Here's a nice link from noted MRA serpents' nest, The Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/glenn-sack…
That last one shows that the biggest risk factor for women getting injured (which I guess is what you are latching onto, that women are more likely to be injured) is women's own initiation of violence.
Relationship violence is a problem. But it isn't the one-sided problem of men abusing women that it is portrayed as.
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It's true, I was not responding to the article itself, but to the beliefs I felt were being expressed in the comments.