myStrangerFace Yeah, it's a copy of that.

minderbender

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4:00 AM minderbender commented on SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!).

@62 I can't give legal advice, but I very much doubt you are reading the NY statute correctly.

3:59 AM minderbender commented on SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!).

@60 I believe the charges are probably based on the statute I cited at @11. Based on the facts we have been given, and even if you bump up the victim's age by a year, as Dan did, it is hard to see what the basis for an acquittal would be.

3:57 AM minderbender commented on SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!).

When I say these are difficult lines to draw, I mean that age can feel very arbitrary - theoretically, the difference between 18/14 and 17/15 could be a matter of two days, not two years (although that doesn't appear to be the case here). And the particular facts and circumstances matter a lot. So the way this works in the U.S. is that the law gives the police/prosecutors a lot of power if the gap is big enough, and then they are supposed to exercise that power with some discretion and thoughtfulness. (And if they don't, the defendant has recourse to a judge and jury.)

So reasonable people can disagree about particular cases, but it doesn't strike me as even remotely inappropriate for an 18/14 sexual relationship to be punishable. I believe that would be the case in most states, including very liberal ones (and rightly so).

So then you are thrown back on the particular facts - and those facts have been misrepresented by the people promoting this petition, including Dan. At this point there is no real basis for thinking that the police and prosecutors are doing the wrong thing here. Of course being labeled a felon is rough, but then, that's what happens to people who commit felonies. Again, there are possible facts and circumstances that could make me think this is excessive, but we don't have much indication that this particular punishment is excessive. The egregious facts of the case, the ones that got our blood boiling and inspired a lot of you to sign the petition, turn out to be entirely false.

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3:37 AM minderbender commented on SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!).

Yeah, 17/15 is one thing, 18/14 is another. These are obviously difficult lines to draw, but they are lines that have to be drawn. I no longer feel the victim's parents are "vindictive assholes" as I said at @21 (that was based on the allegation that it was a 17/15 age gap and the parents waited until the 18th birthday so that it would be a felony). If I had a 14-year-old daughter and this happened to her, I might not go to the police, but I would certainly be very upset.

The other thing to note here is that the facts got mangled pretty badly "between the idea and the reality." People are signing a petition because they believe that a 17/15 relationship got blown up by homophobic parents who didn't go to the police until it turned into a felony. The reality, that an 18/14 relationship got blown up by concerned parents immediately upon discovery, would inspire a lot fewer people to sign a petition, I am thinking. I mean, 18/14 seems downright prosecutable.

So, you know, get your fucking facts straight, ideally prior to writing an outraged blog post. The lesson for the rest of us is not to get involved with these kinds of causes without getting independent confirmation of the facts - and absent that confirmation, to withhold judgment (and certainly not to sign an embarrassing petition). I guess we already knew that, but I sort of expected better from liberals.

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5:07 PM yesterday minderbender commented on SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!).

@19 it's not a question of a slight difference in age - the victim has to be under the age of 16 for the law to apply, and in this particular case the offender has to be over 18. That said, you are right that it's an insanely poorly-drafted statute and a lot of people who grew up in Florida are felons despite having done nothing wrong. (For instance, as I pointed out, a 15-year-old who feels another 15-year-old's breasts through her shirt is a felon if it happens in Florida.)

@18 I agree, these people are vindictive assholes, but I take heart from how supportive Kaitlyn's parents are being. As Dan has pointed out, increasingly the authorities can't count on the parents of gay kids to remain passive. Parents of gay kids are fighting for their kids, and that makes a huge difference.

4:52 PM yesterday minderbender commented on SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!).

I have to say, the Florida statute appears to be pretty messed up. Two 15-year-olds who do anything sexual together are felons under the Florida statute. Of course, that's not our fact pattern here, but this is a pretty poorly drafted statute. Unless Florida actually thinks a 15-year-old should be locked up - as a felon! - for feeling another 15-year-old's breasts through her shirt.

But anyway it doesn't seem crazy to me that a state would forbid sexual contact between an 18-year-old and a 15-year-old. That said, if ever there were a case for police/prosecutorial discretion, this would be it. Give the girl a stern talking-to and tell her to wait until the other girl turns 16.

4:43 PM yesterday minderbender commented on SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!).

I meant "Florida Statutes," not "Florida States." Some copy-editor I am!

4:41 PM yesterday minderbender commented on SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!).

It appears that the family is basing its complaint on Section 800.04(5)(c)2 of the Florida States (I don't know how to do a proper citation). Here is a link:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/inde…

Here is the text:

An offender 18 years of age or older who commits lewd or lascivious molestation against a victim 12 years of age or older but less than 16 years of age
commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Here is the definition of "lewd or lascivious molestation":

A person who intentionally touches in a lewd or lascivious manner the breasts, genitals, genital area, or buttocks, or the clothing covering them, of a person less than 16 years of age, or forces or entices a person under 16 years of age to so touch the perpetrator, commits lewd or lascivious molestation.

4:22 PM yesterday minderbender commented on SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!).

@3 I get it, my question is, are the parents right under the letter of the law? Even if they are, that doesn't make this a proportionate or fair response, but I think it matters.