May 15
Alison Cummins commented on SL Letter of the Day: Insane Demands.
Thanks, EricaP.
Yeah, chatting. I'll accept "we tallied about it and finally she broke down and cried and said I should do what I had to do, but she didn't want to know or to have evidence and nothing else should change." It doesn't have to be open exactly, everyone's relationship is different, but yeah, some sort of credible story with some emotion of some kind behind it. ("Emotion" also being a happy face while talking about his wife coming home from a business trip in a particularly good mood.)
The thing is, as you point out, men lie about this shit. Even if I believe there has been honest discussion I still have to figure out how much to round down the level of openness they claim to have.
Yeah, chatting. I'll accept "we tallied about it and finally she broke down and cried and said I should do what I had to do, but she didn't want to know or to have evidence and nothing else should change." It doesn't have to be open exactly, everyone's relationship is different, but yeah, some sort of credible story with some emotion of some kind behind it. ("Emotion" also being a happy face while talking about his wife coming home from a business trip in a particularly good mood.)
The thing is, as you point out, men lie about this shit. Even if I believe there has been honest discussion I still have to figure out how much to round down the level of openness they claim to have.
May 15
Alison Cummins commented on SL Letter of the Day: Insane Demands.
(EricaP, following up on @99: I’m just asking because I suspect I am as vulnerable as you to the fallacy of thinking someone is telling the truth just because I want him to be, and I suspect myself of being less savvy than you are. So looking for pointers.)
May 15
Alison Cummins commented on SL Letter of the Day: Insane Demands.
EricaP @87 and @97,
There are times when I’ve specifically sought out married men. I explain that I don’t need discretion, that I’m happy to respect other people’s boundaries but that I won’t lie and I would prefer that their own arrangement be based on more honesty than deceit.
Of course I get lots of interest from married men who *wish* this was their situation, or who can’t imagine that it’s actually important, or think that “I’ve thought about it carefully” counts as honesty. Because I’ve been blunt they are usually happy to be blunt back ... disqualifying themselves immediately.
So because I’ve already eliminated so many of them, I’m tempted to believe the ones left over. What does your detective work involve?
If a guy starts muttering about a threesome with his wife, I usually figure that’s a good sign that they talk. Willingness to hold hands in public is another thumbs-up, as is having a picture up on an internet profile or sharing it immediately without being asked.
What else do you look for?
There are times when I’ve specifically sought out married men. I explain that I don’t need discretion, that I’m happy to respect other people’s boundaries but that I won’t lie and I would prefer that their own arrangement be based on more honesty than deceit.
Of course I get lots of interest from married men who *wish* this was their situation, or who can’t imagine that it’s actually important, or think that “I’ve thought about it carefully” counts as honesty. Because I’ve been blunt they are usually happy to be blunt back ... disqualifying themselves immediately.
So because I’ve already eliminated so many of them, I’m tempted to believe the ones left over. What does your detective work involve?
If a guy starts muttering about a threesome with his wife, I usually figure that’s a good sign that they talk. Willingness to hold hands in public is another thumbs-up, as is having a picture up on an internet profile or sharing it immediately without being asked.
What else do you look for?
May 15
Alison Cummins commented on SL Letter of the Day: Insane Demands.
EricaP @76 “Look, many guys occasionally bring their mistress home and have sex in the marital bed while the wife is away or at work. Anyone disagree with that? ”
Yes it happens but it’s creepy. I’ve had a couple of guys suggest that to me and it’s so awful — such a violation — that I just stopped talking to them. The level of disrespect that would be necessary to even think of it is huge and I don’t want any kind of relationship with them beyond, I don’t know, them being my cashier at the grocery store.
“If the mistress then looks at the wife's vibrator and panties, and looks at pictures of the wife & family on the dresser -- is that an incredibly creepy violation? Or is it just expressing a normal level of curiosity?”
The incredibly creepy violation is agreeing to go to the wife’s house in the first place. I look in people’s medicine cabinets when I visit so I assume a certain level of curiosity is normal, and if I magically woke up in my lover’s wife’s bed one morning of course I would explore my surroundings. But I wouldn’t go.
I agree that the situations are similar, but that tells me that her kind of craziness is not as rare as I would like to think, not that she’s not crazy.
More...
Yes it happens but it’s creepy. I’ve had a couple of guys suggest that to me and it’s so awful — such a violation — that I just stopped talking to them. The level of disrespect that would be necessary to even think of it is huge and I don’t want any kind of relationship with them beyond, I don’t know, them being my cashier at the grocery store.
“If the mistress then looks at the wife's vibrator and panties, and looks at pictures of the wife & family on the dresser -- is that an incredibly creepy violation? Or is it just expressing a normal level of curiosity?”
The incredibly creepy violation is agreeing to go to the wife’s house in the first place. I look in people’s medicine cabinets when I visit so I assume a certain level of curiosity is normal, and if I magically woke up in my lover’s wife’s bed one morning of course I would explore my surroundings. But I wouldn’t go.
I agree that the situations are similar, but that tells me that her kind of craziness is not as rare as I would like to think, not that she’s not crazy.
May 10
Alison Cummins commented on SL Letter of the Day: Bonus Advice for Too Soon To Quit.
undead ayn rand @38, Yes, I coerced someone into making an appointment and keeping it. They got effective help and are doing much better.
May 10
Alison Cummins commented on SL Letter of the Day: Bonus Advice for Too Soon To Quit.
undead ayn rand @35, Yes you can. I’ve done it. As I listed, there are other motivations than feeling worthy of help.
May 10
Alison Cummins commented on SL Letter of the Day: Bonus Advice for Too Soon To Quit.
[sorry, that would be seandr @27]
*** *** ***
In response to people who say it’s not possible to get someone to see a doctor if they don’t volunteer or respond to a single polite request. That’s not true.
Depressed people don’t feel they have value, so they are not motivated to get care for their own suffering. It may not occur to them that their behaviour has any effect on anyone else. If they do, it can be in dramatic terms such that they think that unless they kill themselves they are ruining everyone’s life.
Yelling and screaming at them that being depressed is not ok and that you need them to do something about it *can* work.
1) They may see a doctor to make the screaming stop.
2) They may be motivated to see a doctor for your sake, or perhaps to demonstrate to you that seeing a doctor is pointless (they already know that everything is pointless and impossible, but apparently you don’t know it yet and need proof).
3) They may be secretly pleased that you care enough about them to yell and scream instead of just leaving for a better life or abandoning them to their hopelessness. Because they know they are inherently worthless, they may feel more accepting of yelling and screaming than of kind concern.
4) Seeing a doctor is a concrete step that can be undertaken. If seeing the doctor is the goal, then just getting to the office is success. They don’t have to make feeling better the goal, or being a better person, or remaking the world into a good place to live, or causing all 7 billion of its inhabitants to be good and proper. They just have to make an appointment and allow someone to take them to it.
Alternatively, if the depressed person is more sad than dickly, you can just sit with them kindly and explain that you don’t like to see them suffer, and you know they can tolerate it, but can they imagine letting someone *they* care about suffer like that?
As msanonymous @19 points out, getting to a doctor’s appointment is only part of it. If someone’s basically a dick, getting successful treatment just makes them an undepressed dick. Treatment is not always successful even if the person is completely cooperative and proactive. And not everyone actively participates in their own treatment.
My point is simply that the proposition that getting someone to the doctor is not possible is untrue, not that getting them to that first appointment will always fix everything. Though sometimes it does.
*** *** ***
For people interested in the experience of depression, see Hyperbole and a Half’s posts:
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ca/201…
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ca/201…
More...
*** *** ***
In response to people who say it’s not possible to get someone to see a doctor if they don’t volunteer or respond to a single polite request. That’s not true.
Depressed people don’t feel they have value, so they are not motivated to get care for their own suffering. It may not occur to them that their behaviour has any effect on anyone else. If they do, it can be in dramatic terms such that they think that unless they kill themselves they are ruining everyone’s life.
Yelling and screaming at them that being depressed is not ok and that you need them to do something about it *can* work.
1) They may see a doctor to make the screaming stop.
2) They may be motivated to see a doctor for your sake, or perhaps to demonstrate to you that seeing a doctor is pointless (they already know that everything is pointless and impossible, but apparently you don’t know it yet and need proof).
3) They may be secretly pleased that you care enough about them to yell and scream instead of just leaving for a better life or abandoning them to their hopelessness. Because they know they are inherently worthless, they may feel more accepting of yelling and screaming than of kind concern.
4) Seeing a doctor is a concrete step that can be undertaken. If seeing the doctor is the goal, then just getting to the office is success. They don’t have to make feeling better the goal, or being a better person, or remaking the world into a good place to live, or causing all 7 billion of its inhabitants to be good and proper. They just have to make an appointment and allow someone to take them to it.
Alternatively, if the depressed person is more sad than dickly, you can just sit with them kindly and explain that you don’t like to see them suffer, and you know they can tolerate it, but can they imagine letting someone *they* care about suffer like that?
As msanonymous @19 points out, getting to a doctor’s appointment is only part of it. If someone’s basically a dick, getting successful treatment just makes them an undepressed dick. Treatment is not always successful even if the person is completely cooperative and proactive. And not everyone actively participates in their own treatment.
My point is simply that the proposition that getting someone to the doctor is not possible is untrue, not that getting them to that first appointment will always fix everything. Though sometimes it does.
*** *** ***
For people interested in the experience of depression, see Hyperbole and a Half’s posts:
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ca/201…
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ca/201…
May 10
Alison Cummins commented on SL Letter of the Day: Bonus Advice for Too Soon To Quit.
Seander @27, You’re describing typical depression. Atypical depression usually involves sleeping too much rather than too little. People with atypical depression may be able to enjoy things that are already there but be unable to go and get things that aren’t there.
In addition, atypical depression is the kind more often associated with bipolar disorder. As one of the bonus advice-givers in Dan’s post said, “all that passion and drive may have been part of his manic phase” as may have been the whirlwind wedding.
Finally, in bipolar disorders mania and the depression can overlap to produce “irritable depression” which can present as someone who is miserable in their own skin and lashes out being a venomous dick.
I have no idea whether TSTQ’s husband has any kind of bipolar spectrum disorder or whether he’s even depressed. I’m not his doctor. But yes, his behaviour is completely consistent with a variation of depression. Your variation of depression was a different one, that’s all.
In addition, atypical depression is the kind more often associated with bipolar disorder. As one of the bonus advice-givers in Dan’s post said, “all that passion and drive may have been part of his manic phase” as may have been the whirlwind wedding.
Finally, in bipolar disorders mania and the depression can overlap to produce “irritable depression” which can present as someone who is miserable in their own skin and lashes out being a venomous dick.
I have no idea whether TSTQ’s husband has any kind of bipolar spectrum disorder or whether he’s even depressed. I’m not his doctor. But yes, his behaviour is completely consistent with a variation of depression. Your variation of depression was a different one, that’s all.
May 3
Alison Cummins commented on SL Letter of the Day: Mr. Wonderful.
@73 — If you don’t have the defect, then you don’t have it no matter how many people you have sex with. So your “vast” sampling is the same as “I’ve had sex with one person and didn’t fall in love.” Anecdatum of one.
“Most of them didn’t fall in love with me either.” What’s “most” — 80%? Meaning that up to 20% of your self-selected sample do have the defect. A not-insignificant minority, even if we assume that the sexual partners of someone who has enough lifetime partners that they speak in terms of vastness are a representative sample of the general population.
I suspect the defect is more common in women, though I know it occurs in both sexes and haven’t done a survey. I do know that it’s common enough that it’s worth being aware of the possibility in advance and that there are people who take precautions against this eventuality. For instance, I know guys who have an absolute rule against women spending the night, because if you let them do that they’ll just fall in love and ruin everything. I know other guys who will have explicit conversations along these lines. “Of course I can have sex with you if you’d like. But since I’ve had over 2,000 sexual partners it’s likely to mean a lot more to you than it will to me, so it might not be a good idea.”
More...
“Most of them didn’t fall in love with me either.” What’s “most” — 80%? Meaning that up to 20% of your self-selected sample do have the defect. A not-insignificant minority, even if we assume that the sexual partners of someone who has enough lifetime partners that they speak in terms of vastness are a representative sample of the general population.
I suspect the defect is more common in women, though I know it occurs in both sexes and haven’t done a survey. I do know that it’s common enough that it’s worth being aware of the possibility in advance and that there are people who take precautions against this eventuality. For instance, I know guys who have an absolute rule against women spending the night, because if you let them do that they’ll just fall in love and ruin everything. I know other guys who will have explicit conversations along these lines. “Of course I can have sex with you if you’d like. But since I’ve had over 2,000 sexual partners it’s likely to mean a lot more to you than it will to me, so it might not be a good idea.”
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I’d be most comfortable meeting as couples, to reduce triangulation and so that all parties know who they’re dealing with. But my beloved doesn’t want to know details of short flings, only ongoing relationships.