http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=12379674 Comments On: Savage Love by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Tue, 21 May 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Tue, 21 May 2013 08:45:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss
My guess is that he's nervous about coming out and maybe wants help. If he denies it outright, just drop it for now. If he knows you're 100% comfortable with him being gay, it will prolly help him get 100% comfortable soon too.

Case in point, my ridiculously hot boyfriend got drunk and made out with a rather hot "straight" guy at a party that was about 75% homo. Rather than being pissed, I thought it was awesome (and a little hot). Within seconds, the entire party of 30+ people knew the two of them were making out, and I stood there smiling knowing that 1) boyfriend was still going home with me that night, and 2) he was probably helping the poor str8 boy come out.

From talking with str8 boy's friends, no one ever brought that night up with him, and to this day, he's the same closet case he was pre public-make-out session.

Posted by LOTRGandalf86]]> Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:59:13 -0800 The Stranger
@248: The key here is to weaken PP's attackers, which might require more than a circumcision. Hit 'em where it hurts! Eliminate the root of all the woman hating evil: their tainted corporate funded blood money and what hangs in the gross imbalance, and---voila! Problem solved.

Of course, you're talking about an very ugly, very bloody revolution if it ever gets to that point. I'd rather round up and ship the assholes one-way to a desert island filled with rats, fatally poisonous spiders, and snakes.
That would at least save us taxpayers a shitload of hard earned money.
Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:46:52 -0800 The Stranger Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:34:25 -0800 The Stranger Posted by I have always been... east coaster]]> Fri, 17 Feb 2012 16:49:14 -0800 The Stranger Posted by ankylosaur]]> Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:31:29 -0800 The Stranger Posted by EricaP]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 18:25:53 -0800 The Stranger
I don't really like massage or exercise for exactly that reason (massage I'm just indifferent to, exercise I hate with every fibre of my being). What the point of being touched or getting sweaty if you're not going to come?

But that's me. As for meditation I wouldn't even put it close to sex, exercise or massage, but hey.

It's interesting how different people are from eachother.
Posted by mydriasis]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 17:48:08 -0800 The Stranger
I bet when it comes time to actually go at it and make love, you're quite fired up from enjoying the preliminaries of what you enjoy kink-wise.

You sound hip, happy and content, and that makes me happy. You go girl! ;-)
Posted by Andreas375]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:00:54 -0800 The Stranger
Think of it like massage, and meditation, and a good exercise workout -- all fun things, just not involving one's genitals or orgasms.
Posted by EricaP]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:44:45 -0800 The Stranger

Posted by Andreas375]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:32:11 -0800 The Stranger
Ultimately, I also do think that self-identification is more about what you think feels true for yourself, not about a specific set of behaviors that you have to have in order to live up to the category. (Of course, this opens up the possibility that you might be lying to yourself, for whatever reason; but what's wrong here is the lie, as it is anytime you lie to yourself, not your sexual identity being what feels right to you.) Behavior can have explanations other than sexual orientation.

Posted by ankylosaur]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:41:04 -0800 The Stranger
Sorry if I misunderstood your standpoint. If you do see that sex can be good (or at least willingly consented to) even when there's no big sexual gratification for it, then indeed I misunderstood something in what you said -- again, sorry about that. I think maybe the misunderstanding was that you were thinking of sex with someone you're repulsed by (something I would never do either), whereas I was thinking about sex with someone I'm just not really turned on by -- to me, a totally different situation.

Posted by ankylosaur]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:36:31 -0800 The Stranger Thanks for the clarification.

I'll take you at your word that you feel straight (and of course, you have the right to define yourself any way you like), so you are straight.
Posted by nocutename]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:16:22 -0800 The Stranger
One year (in highschool, actually) when I was at Pride with a couple good friends, I broke off with one other for a minute to go get popcicles. So we're walking back to meet our friends and this woman wearing mardi gras beads instead of a shirt and this man with her come up to us. He asks "excuse me - are you two lovers?"

We laugh and say no we're just friends.
She asks us what our orientation is. My friend says she's bi, and I say I'm straight. The guy says to us "Honey I could tell." I ask how and he says "by the way you're each eating your popsicles"

Maybe everyone should just forgo the introspection and just do a quick popcicle test.
Posted by mydriasis]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:13:53 -0800 The Stranger Good to know!

@Cute
I don't find the anatomy a turnoff, I just don't find it a turnon. Why would I be bothered by the same kind of anatomy I have? It doesn't bother me for the same reason it doesn't turn me on. "Oh, word. I see that every day."

As for masturbation, I'm not a huge fan.
Hooking up with a woman is essentially the same (lack of attraction, lack of repulsion, but getting off regardless due to physical response) except better.

Having something happen to you is wayy more of a turn on than doing something to yourself. Ever try to tickle yourself? Doesn't work does it. The excitement of not knowing what's going to happen and not having control over the situation is something you can't get by yourself. Plus also makeouts are fun.

I could define myself as straight-bi... but it seems weird to define myself on a few experiences I had many years ago. I feel straight, you know? Sure, it might be more fun and interesting to identify otherwise but it would feel like a lie. When more detail is needed I bring up Margaret Cho's crack that "bi is just another word for 'slutty'"

(And NO I'm not trying to claim that's true, so no shitstorm, please. Just in MY case, that seems to be an apt analysis)
Posted by mydriasis]]> Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:06:09 -0800 The Stranger Posted by EricaP]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:49:18 -0800 The Stranger
I think it's reasonable to say that I am "a tiny bit bi"; the girls don't turn me off, they just don't smell right so something else has to turn me on (like thinking of my husband's excitement, or the excitement of the audience admiring me).

Sorry for misunderstanding you before!
Posted by EricaP]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:48:06 -0800 The Stranger
So, for the record:

* I am submissive. And kinky. I understand those tendencies.

* I don't orgasm easily and never without my vibrator, and have had lots of sex without any expectation or hope of orgasming during it.

* I understand and have also had sex which sole purpose is to do a nice thing for another person.

* I don't only have sex with people I love or think it has to always be a transcendent experience. I have been incredibly promiscuous in my life and am perfectly capable of viewing sex as a kind of carnal recreation (although if it is good, it pretty much beats even the very best TV hands down). I may discriminate more now than I used to or than some people do; I do this only because I have learned that for me, sex is better if I know and like the guy a little bit! The more connection I feel, the more revved up I am.

* Unlike ankylosaur, who is doing a lot of theoretical hypothisizing about what sex with a man to whom he is not really all that attracted to might be like, I've tried to have sex with a member of my own sex, and was not indifferent, but repulsed. All the fellow-feeling I might have for another member of humanity isn't going to make up for a gigantic lack of attraction bordering on revulsion. And why, ank, under what circumstances, supposing I'm not a sex worker or that I love that person and want to make her happy, would I want to subject myself to sex which isn't just not "magical," but which disgusts me? What is the point of that? Or, if I may risk sounding so shallow and self-centered, where's the payoff? Most people want to enjoy the sex they're freely choosing to have.

* @232: I was trying to break down the reasons pepole have sex without hoping for sexual satisfaction because you had made a statement that likened the kind of sex you have that began this conversation about orientation with all other reasons a person might have sex without attraction or expectation of fulfillment. I think, in light of the fact that you are having voluntary, unpaid, recreational, non-emotionally-connective, deliberately-planned sex (which might lead one to conclude that you're getting something out of it, which something under ordinary circumstances might be assumed to be sexual pleasure) it is rather unexpected to hear you say that not only are you not getting any sexual satisfaction out of the sex, but that you are actually turned off by your partners. As your partners are female, and you are having sex with them by choice, it seems a logical conclusion that you're a tiny bit bi; when you say that you are not, as evidenced by the fact that you find female genitals unarousing and they don't enter into your fantasies unless you're trying to write your personal Title IX grant, that makes me wonder why you're bothering to have this kind of sex. I think it is relevant to distinguish it from other kinds of "less than magical" sex.

Posted by nocutename]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:19:29 -0800 The Stranger Posted by ankylosaur]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 19:23:54 -0800 The Stranger
But, except for #2 (rape), I'm not sure what's gained by breaking it down into categories. (Especially since there's a lot of overlap in those categories). In all those cases, an adult is choosing sex for reasons other than immediate sexual gratification. I'm with ankylosaur, I think people have complicated reasons for studying, for calling their moms, for choosing fruit instead of cake, for driving fast, etc. And for having sex, too. I'm someone who finds orgasm hard to come by, so I've found other reasons for having sex. Probably my itty bitty genes, hard at work trying to reproduce themselves :-)
Posted by EricaP]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:23:52 -0800 The Stranger Posted by ankylosaur]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:06:14 -0800 The Stranger What you're describing is different: you say you have no attraction to women sexually, but you force yourself (or allow yourself) to be sexual with women in public, knowing you won't find it arousing. You don't *have* to have this sex, and it doesn't somehow just seem to sort of happen to you; you have to deliberately seek it out.

And here is the question: should this be strange, in principle? I mean, can't someone enjoy having sex for non-sexual reasons (some of which you pointed out)? Is it the case that whenever we do something the motivation is the supposed specific reward that that activity gives us -- we only watch movies because of the aesthetic experience, we only talk because we're interested in the topic, we only have sex because we're aroused? Can't there be other valid reasons?

You mentioned sex workers. If a sex worker does indeed consent in sex for money, then clearly sad sex was not consented to for the purpose of sexual gratification. (Some sex workers do derive sexual gratification from having sex for money, but that's a logically independent fact.) I suppose this would be a valid reason, to you? So here's the question: if I said I could engage in sex with a man -- sex with someone whose genitals do not arouse me -- for money, would it seem easier for you to understand? I.e., if I said I could be a male prostitute (it wouldn't satisfy me sexually, but hey, the money is good), would that seem easier to understand/accept?
Posted by ankylosaur]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:05:11 -0800 The Stranger
Is sex without arousal every a good idea? In my previous comment I mention doing your partner a favor and having sex with him/her even if you're not in the mood. I've done that occasionally, and I don't think it was a bad experience.

Is sex as a favor -- because you see someone you're not attracted to really wants it so much (remember the old 'he wants it so much and it costs me so little'? :-) also ever a good idea? Again, I've done that, too (call this 'pity' or 'mercy sex'), and you can wonder if it was, all in all, good for the other person; but speaking for myself, the fact that I didn't really enjoy it (I didn't orgasm) doesn't bother me. I did it for other reasons, and I'm fine with that.

So the final question -- would sex with a man (which I haven't really had so far) be also so much of a bad idea? I really seriously ask myself this question: would I be disgusted, would I feel violated, would I feel de-personified, etc. etc. -- whatever bad consequences people with high expectations for sex (like nocutename) think that sex without attraction might have -- or would I not? All I can say is, I would have to have a strong motivation (I really like the guy, I'm really doing him a favor, etc.); but given said motivation, I think the absence of arousal in me and the absence of an orgasm at the end wouldn't be oh so terrible. It's not simply "I would survive"; it's also "I'd do this for him."

In other words: I don't think that would damage me in any way. It would just be boring, but there would be no damage. It wouldn't turn me psychotic, it wouldn't traumatize me, I wouldn't become a victim. Again, it would just be (sexually) boring (though maybe interesting from some other perspective -- just as it was interesting to watch Dora the Explorer with my daughter, despite the fact that I personally found it boring as a movie.)

So I see myself agreeing with EricaP. I wonder if this comes from the fact that both of us are rather kinky with submissive tendencies. (EricaP tried to differentiate kink from sex above, which is something I've often wondered about. I think kink is sex, but it somehow offers you a way of differentiating yourself from sex, of de-identifying yourself with the kind of sex you like. Like those deep meditation exercises that de-identify you with some specific cognitive structure -- 'watch yourself thinking; now, who is doing the watching?' -- I think kink helps you de-identify with sex and sexuality, de-identify with fucking or being fucked as part of "who you are" rather than being "things you do".)
Posted by ankylosaur]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:58:06 -0800 The Stranger Posted by EricaP]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:53:56 -0800 The Stranger
1) they didn't know beforehand that the sex wasn't going to be arousing

2)the sex was coerced or forced--downright rape

3) the sex was motivated by love and affection or a sense of obligation, sometimes combined with love and affection, and sometimes an irritating term of a bargain made for economic or social reasons

or

3) they are paid sex workers who are being compensated directly and explicitly for the sex.

What you're describing is different: you say you have no attraction to women sexually, but you force yourself (or allow your self) to be sexual with women in public, knowing you won't find it arousing. You don't *have* to have this sex, and it doesn't somehow just seem to sort of happen to you; you have to deliberately seek it out.

I would contend that in fact you do derive sexual satisfaction and arousal, not from the sex itself and in the moment, but in the idea of what you've done and who saw you do it at a later moment in time, all of which complicates the idea of "bi-ness" even further, since the satisfaction probably (I'm just guessing here) comes at the direct hands either of your husband or another man, or yourself when it acts as a narrative to move you to orgasm.

In such a case, I would agree that you are more straight than anything else. Straight, but hardly narrow! Happy Valentine's Day!
Posted by nocutename]]> Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:49:11 -0800 The Stranger