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    <channel>
      <title>Comments On: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother
    
      by Charles Mudede</title>
      <link>http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother</link>
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      by Charles Mudede</description>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13632445]]></link>

    <guid isPermaLink="true"><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13632445]]></guid>
    <author><![CDATA[lark]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[The exchange between "thelyamhound" and "Seattleblues" is the best exchange I've read on SLOG in 4 years of reading SLOG.<br />
<br>
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1512502">lark</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2012 22:08:42 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13621646]]></link>

    <guid isPermaLink="true"><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13621646]]></guid>
    <author><![CDATA[kim in portland]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@ Fnarf,<br />
<br />
I figure you don't care a lick about my $0.02, but your comments about Seattleblues' extended family were completely out of line. Knock it off. You are a better person than that.
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1500862">kim in portland</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2012 21:38:18 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13610454]]></link>

    <guid isPermaLink="true"><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13610454]]></guid>
    <author><![CDATA[venomlash]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@52: Seattleblues, you're framing this as gays-versus-straights and trying to make it into an affront to majority rule. The thing is, it's not the gays trying to force stuff on us; it's gays AND their straight allies, who support marriage equality because they think it's right, not because they have some personal interest in it. And we ARE in the majority.
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=2974090">venomlash</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 17:29:52 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13610333]]></link>

    <guid isPermaLink="true"><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13610333]]></guid>
    <author><![CDATA[thelyamhound]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[The very last paragraph in #53 is Seattleblues's, not mine.  For the sake of closure, I'll examine it here: <br />
<blockquote>So we've chosen one set of subjective values to build this country on, and mostly they seem to have worked.</blockquote>And what I'm suggesting is that just as some other conditions of our nation were found to actually be at odds with those values (slavery, for instance), the offering of marital privilege as a legally enforced, state-sanctioned contract to heterosexual couples and not same-sex couples is a direct violation of those principles for the reasons I have outlined.<br />
<blockquote>We have things to work on to make it better, sure. But before we throw out the bathwater it might be worthwhile to remove the baby.</blockquote>What "baby" do you believe we who support same-sex marriage are discarding?  Please be specific.
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1512093">thelyamhound</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 17:05:15 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13610325]]></link>

    <guid isPermaLink="true"><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13610325]]></guid>
    <author><![CDATA[thelyamhound]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[<blockquote>Absolutely we have the freedom to practice a faith or leave it alone free of government coercion. And without question the right to engage our faith or politics or pens or tongues in free expression is inseparable from our liberty. Is a Christian being elected to high office such coercion though?</blockquote>Not at all where did I suggest it would be?  I reached voting age in 1990; since then, all four presidential candidates for whom I have voted (Clinton, twice; Gore; Kerry; Obama) have identified as Christian.  I'd say that's because I haven't been offered any alternatives, but then, I don't necessarily think I would vote for a Nichiren Buddhist candidate just because he/she happened to share my <i>religious</i> convictions, since he or she may not share my views on all relevant matters . . . and in any case, I'm no more interested in having you beholden to my views than in being beholden to yours.<br />
<blockquote>Are laws that enact Christian (or Buddhist or atheist come to that) values <i>ipso facto</i> coercion? They can be, if they're sufficiently direct.</blockquote>How do we determine whether they are "sufficiently direct"?  The surest test, to my mind, is to determine whether such laws serve a purpose <i>other than</i> the satisfaction of an empirically demonstrable utility or the prevention of an empirically demonstrable harm.  That is, all law should have a rational--and consequential--basis.  Without such a guarantee, we have no true free exercise, since we are still beholden to the myths and metaphysics of the majority.<br />
<blockquote>That is, we can't enact the text of the 10 commmandments or the Quran in law, but we can outlaw murder or theft.</blockquote>Of course; murder and theft are demonstrably and materially harmful to individuals other than the the <i>consensual</i> participants, even to individuals other than the direct victim (there's also the matter of "foundational civic values" and "foundational rights" with regards to live and property, but I'm sticking with the simpler matters, for now).<br />
<blockquote>We can't and shouldn't outlaw homosexual behavior among consenting adults because one faith or another finds homosexuality sinful. But we can establish incentives to behave in ways consistent with those values without crossing any lines.</blockquote>To paraphrase you, I respectfully disagree in part.  We can establish some incentives, but only if we're clear what we're establishing incentives for.  What's the difference, for instance, between an elderly or infertile heterosexual couple and a same-sex couple, in terms of what they accomplish for society at large in compromising and cohabitating?  Is the distinction between those two classes <i>solely</i> moral in basis, or can you make a consequential argument that makes the contribution to society on the part of each category <i>materially</i> apparent?<br />
<blockquote>That's democracy, not a violation of the idea of separation of church and state.</blockquote>I'm less interested in the separation of church and state than in the freedom of [ir]religion.  If moral and ethical decisions can be punished and rewarded, without regard to material consequence, based on nothing but the will of the majority, where is the freedom of religion?  I submit that under such a system, we have none.<br />
<blockquote>And certainly, a person can be doing their duty by fighting apparent social injustice. Thoreau wrote about this kind of patriotism. But he also said that it was the citizens duty not only to point out perceived wrong, but to accept the judgement of his fellows in the end. I know, it's in the later parts of Civil Disobedience that hardly anyone reads, but it's part of his ideas nonetheless.</blockquote>That's one philosophy for opposing perceived injustice.  Then there is that of our own founders, which was to rise up and slaughter our oppressors over tax policy.  So fervent a cheerleader for our nation as you impugns his own forebears lecturing the rest of us for failing to live up to Thoreau's notions, given that those founders failed to do so even more pointedly.  <br />
<blockquote>Fighting for the right of a gay man or lesbian to pursue their happiness in a consensual sexual relationship with another man or woman is a fight I'd join, believe it or not.</blockquote>And yet you support the government essentially subsidizing a heterosexual couple doing the same (or at least saving the cost of various legal fees and allowing some circumnavigation standard ordinance, like, say, the 5th Amendment protections that keep you and I from having to testify against our wives, or preferential consideration in immigration matters if either of our spouses happened to be foreign nationals), while denying those same protections to those gays and lesbians you generously "allow" to pursue their own happiness.  <blockquote>Fighting for the right of 3% of the population to set social and legal terms for everyone else is one I simply can't in good conscience.</blockquote>Socially speaking, you and I aren't even referring to the same institution when we refer to our respective marriages.  Legally, the essential meaning is rather skeletal, and probably allows for arrangements neither of us is likely to support.  But none of these arrangements affects the integrity of marriage <i>as we each individually understand it</i> one iota, and until and unless you can demonstrate, factually, how it does, I will continue to hold your views on the matter not only suspect, but in deep contempt.<br />
<blockquote>It still seems to me you're trying to create laboratory conditions for things that simply won't work in the lab.</blockquote>Civilization is a laboratory, in which we are both the studier and the studied.  <br />
<blockquote>In the end nearly everything about culture is subjective.</blockquote>Indeed.  But culture happens at multiple levels, in layers; it becomes more subjective the deeper you get.  At the macro level--and I think we can agree that government is that--it should strive to be as objective as possible while still preserving a basic modicum of civic peace.<br />
<blockquote>You can parse it back to ensuring social order or utility or other concepts, but even those notions are subjective. Why is utility desirable? Because some folks think it to be.  Why liberty, come to that.</blockquote>Because even those folks who don't think utility to be desirable will be protected by small "u" utilitarian principles, if only because it defends the right to moral self-determination from those whose morals might inhibit same.  Being one who does not believe in [G/g]od(s), I don't believe that "values," as such, exist in nature; quantities become values only when valued by a mind.  But many of those values, among social animals like ourselves, are certainly <i>foundationally</i> important.  For instance, if value only exist when an organism can value a quantity, how is value formation possible without first valuing life?  And so on.  Liberty comes shortly thereafter.<br />
<br />
Moreover, liberty is a specifically enumerated value in our system (as is property, which I don't value much, personally--I think it's a necessary evil, one to which I can propose no alternative because I quite honestly can't think of one).  The question of "why liberty" is immaterial, unless we're interested in literally overthrowing the Constitution, because it's right there in print.  Chastity, fertility, etc., are NOT enumerated in our political values; these are moral and social values enumerated at different levels--family, community, faith group, professional organization.<br />
<br />
This conversation could take us far afield; the point is, most organisms would rather live than   I mean, in human history the notion of liberty as a birthright of a man is fairly recent, and subjective.<br />
<br />
So we've chosen one set of subjective values to build this country on, and mostly they seem to have worked. We have things to work on to make it better, sure. But before we throw out the bathwater it might be worthwhile to remove the baby.<br />
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1512093">thelyamhound</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 17:01:54 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13608342]]></link>

    <guid isPermaLink="true"><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13608342]]></guid>
    <author><![CDATA[Seattleblues]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@51<br />
<br />
To take it point by point-<br />
<br />
On your claims of how this nation was founded I would respectfully disagree in part.  Absolutely we have the freedom to practice a faith or leave it alone free of government coercion.  And without question the right to engage our faith or politics or pens or tongues in free expression is inseparable from our liberty.  Is a Christian being elected to high office such coercion though?  We've thought not both socially and in jurisprudence.  <br />
<br />
Are laws that enact Christian (or Buddhist or atheist come to that) values ipso facto coercion?  They can be, if they're sufficiently direct.  That is, we can't enact the text of the 10 commmandments or the Quran in law, but we can outlaw murder or theft.  We can't and shouldn't outlaw homosexual behavior among consenting adults because one faith or another finds homosexuality sinful.  But we can establish incentives to behave in ways consistent with those values without crossing any lines.  That's democracy, not a violation of the idea of separation of church and state.<br />
<br />
As for the deeper matters of what constitutes society and how it evolves, there are grad programs built around that.  I suspect that we agree on more than we disagree in general, and have our conflicts when details are introduced.  The way medieval England saw things, for example, wouldn't be suitable for 21st century America.  The way we see things might not work for the Chinese or the French.  <br />
<br />
And certainly, a person can be doing their duty by fighting apparent social injustice.  Thoreau wrote about this kind of patriotism.  But he also said that it was the citizens duty not only to point out perceived wrong, but to accept the judgement of his fellows in the end.  I know, it's in the later parts of Civil Disobedience that hardly anyone reads, but it's part of his ideas nonetheless.<br />
<br />
Fighting for the right of a gay man or lesbian to pursue their happiness in a consensual sexual relationship with another man or woman is a fight I'd join, believe it or not.  Fighting for the right of 3% of the population to set social and legal terms for everyone else is one I simply can't in good conscience.<br />
<br />
It still seems to me you're trying to create laboratory conditions for things that simply won't work in the lab.  In the end nearly everything about culture is subjective.  You can parse it back to ensuring social order or utility or other concepts, but even those notions are subjective.  Why is utility desirable?  Because some folks think it to be.  Why liberty, come to that.  I mean, in human history the notion of liberty as a birthright of a man is fairly recent, and subjective.<br />
<br />
So we've chosen one set of subjective values to build this country on, and mostly they seem to have worked.  We have things to work on to make it better, sure.  But before we throw out the bathwater it might be worthwhile to remove the baby.<br />
<br />
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=5500196">Seattleblues</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 16:00:50 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13607923]]></link>

    <guid isPermaLink="true"><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13607923]]></guid>
    <author><![CDATA[thelyamhound]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[<blockquote>There are natural physical consequences and obstacles to homosexuality. More in men than in women, given how the aberrant nature of homosexuality is expressed differently by gays and lesbians, but existent nonetheless.</blockquote>Not really.  Any of the acts you could use to bolster this assertion are neither endemic nor exclusive to homosexuality.<br />
<blockquote>All human beings live in an artificial societal condition.</blockquote>Indeed.  And our artificial societal condition guarantees free exercise of religion--which necessarily includes free exercise of irreligion (which I've pointed out before, to no cogent rebuttal; again [and again, and again], it's worth pointing out that this is invariably the point at which you leave the argument--a fact that you admit, though only in the least adult fashion, every time you fail to respond).  Free exercise of [ir]religion, by definition, is a recipe for pluralism and, most importantly, moral and ethical self-determination.  We can only be held to moral principles if those principles also serve an empirically demonstrable civic utility (or prevent an empirically demonstrable civic harm--that is, a harm that extends beyond the voluntary participants).  <br />
<blockquote>And the path of sanity is to accept the prevalent conditions of our particular culture and agitate for the small changes we feel would improve the thing.</blockquote>So long as the prevalent conditions are arbitrary and subjective, beholden to metaphysical reasoning and unaccountable to empirical demonstrations of harm or utility, I submit that they are explicitly unacceptable according to our own founding documents<br />
<blockquote>But to tear the whole thing down because you find it inconvenient is the act of a toddler, not an adult.</blockquote>What exactly do you think anyone here (let alone I) would like to see "torn down"?  My goal is only to share the joy and beauty of marriage as my wife and I experience with those whose relations are functionally indistinguishable but for the sex and/or gender composition of the participants. <br />
<blockquote>Blaming society at large for the stubborn unwillingness in a self selecting minority to adapt themselves to it is a bit silly, frankly.</blockquote>If society at large fails so fully and so consistently to articulate the basis for its positions, it is in fact the duty of men of my capacity to question its tenets.  I'm not interested in "blame".  I'd settle for an explanation from someone within shouting distance of being an equal.<br />
<blockquote>You seem to posit a society where all the rules and subtleties of social interaction arise from some practical purpose rigorously lab tested to be effective at this or that objective. Sorry to burst your bubble, but whatever world that may occur in, it ain't this one.</blockquote>In point of fact, I believe that the common ancestor of both law and morality was <i>utility</i>; the important distinction between law and morality is that law (in my view . . . and, it would appear, the views of our founders, in some measure, and certainly of Enlightenment philosophers at large, however steeped in, and therefore beholden to, anthropomorphic monotheism in general and Christianity in particular) ideally remains beholden to utility, while morality, in most high functioning organisms, transcends mere utility to steer one towards a life of genuine quality and/or service.  I have literally dozens of moral views I've no interest in seeing legislated, precisely because the reasoning behind them is subjective and/or metaphysical, and I believe that the First Amendment necessitates that I pursue my moral interests through my own channels (Buddhism and theater, in my case), rather than through law, which guarantees everyone--even you--the right to make his or her own mistakes and find his or her own life of quality and/or service.<br />
<br />
That is, of course not all social interactions boil down to the empirically demonstrable.  But--and you, as a conservative, should surely understand this--the state is too blunt an instrument to be trusted with rewarding or punishing behaviors by virtue of their metaphysical or subjective implication.  For you, that's good reason to limit their economic powers.  But at least economics deal with real quantities and consequences.  For me, government must be MOST limited in its capacity to make moral distinctions, to reward "preferable" behavior (like heterosexual cohabitation, as opposed to homosexual cohabitation) with financial perks and legal privilege.  <br />
<br />
Some say that this means the state shouldn't recognize marriage at all.  I don't agree, but it's at least an equitable solution.  As it stands, there are material advantages to the state honoring household building among both the fertile and infertile (the latter to include same-sex couples).  I could go over that for you, but I'm not sure I want to spend the time before you make it clear that you're actually here to engage in dialogue, and possibly learn something.<br />
<br />
Ball's in your court, <b>Seattleblues</b>, and it's all down to wisdom and courage, now.  Do you have the wisdom to know you're bested and the courage to admit it?  Or, if you think you  can do better, do you have the wisdom and courage to actually articulate a counter-argument?  And if neither, what exactly is it you intend to do here?
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1512093">thelyamhound</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 15:06:37 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13607135]]></link>

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    <author><![CDATA[venomlash]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@45: "There are natural physical consequences and obstacles to homosexuality."<br />
Such as? The only one I can think of is lack of children. And hey, thanks to adoption and IVF, we can work around that.<br />
You say we should try and change society for the better rather than tear it down and start over. I agree. (That is why I don't have much patience for the Communists who hang around the campus advocating revolution.) And so what do I advocate? I don't support abolishing marriage; I support extending it to queer people. Problem?
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=2974090">venomlash</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 13:35:23 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[Fnarf]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[I don't understand why you want to keep arguing with it. It's not attempting to have a dialog. Its Readers Digest bromides about how terrific America is are not meant to be understood; they're meant to block out understanding.
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1498793">Fnarf</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 13:18:00 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[Matt from Denver]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA["Our" house, SB? It's his house too, you ignorant yahoo.
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1500464">Matt from Denver</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 13:01:19 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13606789]]></link>

    <guid isPermaLink="true"><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13606789]]></guid>
    <author><![CDATA[Backyard Bombardier]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@36: "I've never written anti-gay rhetoric"<br />
<br />
@45: "the aberrant nature of homosexuality"<br />
<br />
@46: "My problem with Mudede [is]... he comes into our national house and loudly disparages every aspect of it."<br />
<br />
I believe the word you are searching for is "uppity".
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=4616794">Backyard Bombardier</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 12:48:55 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13606649]]></link>

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    <author><![CDATA[Seattleblues]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@38<br />
<br />
I don't think anything of the kind.  In fact one of the great refutations to the liberal hatred of this nation is the sheer number and diversity of people trying to come here. <br />
<br />
My problem with Mudede isn't his misfortune in being born in Africa.  It isn't his emigration to the United States.  It's the objection I'd have to any guest who behaved as he does.  He comes into our national house and loudly disparages every aspect of it.  I merely suggest that his place would be well filled by someone else who actually likes the place and wants to come here.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=5500196">Seattleblues</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 12:38:10 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13606397]]></link>

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    <author><![CDATA[Seattleblues]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@43<br />
<br />
There are natural physical consequences and obstacles to homosexuality.  More in men than in women, given how the aberrant nature of homosexuality is expressed differently by gays and lesbians, but existent nonetheless.   <br />
<br />
But leaving that aside, your objection is meaningless.  All human beings live in an artificial societal condition.  And the path of sanity is to accept the prevalent conditions of our particular culture and agitate for the small changes we feel would improve the thing.  But to tear the whole thing down because you find it inconvenient is the act of a toddler, not an adult.  Blaming society at large for the stubborn unwillingness in a self selecting minority to adapt themselves to it is a bit silly, frankly.<br />
<br />
You seem to posit a society where all the rules and subtleties of social interaction arise from some practical purpose rigorously lab tested to be effective at this or that objective.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but whatever world that may occur in, it ain't this one.<br />
<br>
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=5500196">Seattleblues</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 12:22:15 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[Lissa]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[Oh, I suppose you're right, but in my comparison the invertebrates win if that's any consolation.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1678158">Lissa</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 10:37:59 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[thelyamhound]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[<blockquote>I've never written anti-gay rhetoric. Unless asking that adults accept the consequences of their choices is anti gay.</blockquote>The consequences you insist they accept are not natural consequences, but socially manufactured consequences--a distinction I've made for you (you're welcome!) many times, and to which you've yet to formulate a cogent rebuttal.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1512093">thelyamhound</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 10:23:38 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <author><![CDATA[Theodore Gorath]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@41: Lissa, that was cruel, you really should not be insulting invertebrates.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=12746138">Theodore Gorath</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 10:20:01 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <author><![CDATA[Lissa]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@40: As opposed  to you who leave no doubt what so ever as to your relative cognitive abilities every time you post. And by relative I mean to some sort of invertebrate.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1678158">Lissa</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 09:35:27 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[BetarayBilly2]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[If Ebenezer Mudede hadn't been a prominent cocksucker of Mugabe (excuse me, great "economic" advisor that helped make Zimbabwe the fantastic place it is today), Chuckie would be back home right now cutting out women's clits or whatever else passes for culture there instead of copying and pasting text of books he likes to leave open on his coffee table to try and convince people he's not a retard.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=11250417">BetarayBilly2</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 08:10:02 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[Lissa]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[Oh SB, dodging the question again. When I say I'm not down with talking smack about family I mean just that.  I don't insult other prople's loved ones. I don't think it's fair and I've called Fnarf on it in the past. <br />
But back to my question,,  you said you'd be giving up name calling because it was "childish". Doesn't your performance here make you yet again a liar?<br />
Well that, and that whopper you just told about not indulging in anti gay rhetoric.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1678158">Lissa</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 08:06:51 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[Patricia Kayden]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[I have to laugh. I was a Canadian citizen who left to come to the US and am now a US citizen.  Why does SB think that only Africans leaving the "hellholes" of Africa need to be derided when there are White people who leave Europe by the thousands to come to the US as well.  Ditto Asians.<br />
<br />
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=7053752">Patricia Kayden</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 03:31:29 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[venomlash]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[Seattleblues, Fnarf is doing something to you called "trolling". And you are "feeding" his "trolling" and getting "mad". If Mudede should be kicked out of America, you should be kicked off the internet.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=2974090">venomlash</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 01:51:34 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[Seattleblues]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@30<br />
<br />
First, it isn't faux intellectualism.  That would be what Mudede indulges himself in.<br />
<br />
I've never written anti-gay rhetoric.  Unless asking that adults accept the consequences of their choices is anti gay.  But only someone with  no sense would accept that idea.<br />
<br />
The US isn't a bad place for mothers, if you actually look at how well they can hope their kids can do.  If all you look at is maternity leave policies and whether babies can be murdered at state expense, maybe, but sane people don't see things that way.  Just liberals.<br />
<br />
And yeah, when know nothing mouth breathers like Mudede and Fnarf start mouthing off about the greatest nation on God's green earth, I do get annoyed.  So sue me.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=5500196">Seattleblues</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 21:40:17 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
    <link><![CDATA[http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/08/africa-is-not-a-great-place-to-be-a-mother/#13600625]]></link>

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    <author><![CDATA[Seattleblues]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@33<br />
<br />
FYI-<br />
<br />
With that pedophile mind of yours I hope you stay well clear of children, pervert.
        
        <br />
        
          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=5500196">Seattleblues</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 21:30:01 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[Seattleblues]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@33<br />
<br />
Sorry, other than vulgar vomit did you actually write something there, mindless?<br />
<br />
What about this don't you understand?  The words of more than one syllable?  You can spit the vile debris of your vile mind all you like.  It's telling of you, not anyone else, you filthy punk.<br />
<br />
Now go grow up, will ya, scumbag?
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=5500196">Seattleblues</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 21:27:40 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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    <title><![CDATA[Re: Africa Is Not a Great Place to be a Mother]]></title>

    
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    <author><![CDATA[Fnarf]]></author>
    <description>
      
      <![CDATA[@25, the li'l darling sucks cock like she's thirteen, I swear. She says you taught her.<br />
<br />
Fuck you, Bluesmeister, and the dimwitted horse you rode in on. Get cancer.
        
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          Posted by <a href="http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Profile?oid=1498793">Fnarf</a>]]>
    </description>
    <pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 21:19:08 -0700</pubDate>
    <source url="http://www.thestranger.com">The Stranger</source>
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