Comments On: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade by Dominic Holden http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/06/24/breaking-from-their-church-mormons-march-in-seattles-gay-pride-parade Comments On: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade by Dominic Holden en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Tue, 21 May 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Tue, 21 May 2013 17:45:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> Your music is amazing. You have some very talented artists. I wish you the best of success.
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Posted by Jon carter111]]> Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:55:23 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> Posted by Kathybobathy]]> Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:30:35 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> Posted by SMRock]]> Wed, 27 Jun 2012 21:09:43 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
I suppose it would be, if I had actually told anybody that. But if you read the actual words that I wrote, I think you'll find that what I actually posted was "Here's a more effective way to protest your church's position on civil rights: quit." and 'I just think they're kidding themselves (and some of you, it seems), if they think they're "changing the church from the inside" by marching in pride.'

I don't imagine that any Mormon gives a damn about what I accept in any event, but I accept their desire to march in Pride. I just don't think it helps anybody at all. It won't stop their church from funding anti-equality crusades, and it won't stop them from tithing to that church. It's just a way for them to march in a parade and say "I support your rights while contributing my financial power to an organization that fights like a wildcat to suppress those rights."

If some gay basher spray paints his baseball bat pink, it doesn't make him any more my friend. Likewise, if some insignificant percentage of mormons choose to pay lip service to equality while continuing to donate their money and membership to an anti-gay church, their net contribution to gay rights is still negative.

Posted by Mike]]> Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:15:51 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
This. This is not acceptance--this is nonsense. Almost more harmful than people who are openly against it, because these people will tell you they're accepting, tell you kind words, and then deny you the same opportunities they have. These people try to lower your guard and then stab you in the back instead of attacking you head on. It's sad and, in a morbid way, almost amusing how long, winding, and complicated of a road many self-proclaimed Christians are electing to take over accepting a simple truth.

I have a little more faith in these people who marched though. The Church of Later Day Saints, like every other group of people, is made up of individuals. It is possible to be Mormon and truly accepting. Its never a good idea to try to paint entire groups of people with a single brush stroke. Not every Mormon agrees with the official views of their church in the same way that not every Catholic agrees with the pope.
Posted by inception71]]> Tue, 26 Jun 2012 15:39:48 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
The point is that they are Mormon, and presumably like something or several somethings about that. They are probably not going to quit. You may already know this, but churches play a role in providing community structure in modern American life that it can be difficult to replace - so people tend not to consider quitting a church as an easy decision.

Anyways, since they probably won't be leaving the church, telling them that the only way for them to offer their support to marriage equality and have you accept it is by leaving the church just means that you are telling them you don't accept their support. Which is absolutely your choice to make - just one of questionable wisdom in my opinion.

Fortunately, they will probably continue to offer their support in all the ways they think practicable because they aren't doing it to make you happy, they are doing it out of conviction that it is right.
Posted by Thisbe]]> Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:48:38 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
The Mormons new policy towards gays and lesbians is that, OK, you can want to be gay, we will allow you to even say that you are gay - - BUT, you can't act on any of your sexual orientation feelings - you can't have a life, you can't have a partner, you can't date - and married or not married - you can't have sex.

These 60 marchers are dedicated Mormon Romney campaign workers; no more, no less. Sure, officially they are not connected to the campaign. Just a coincidence that a Mormon bigot is running for President, and Mormons need to appear gay-friendly.
Posted by TLUnrine]]> Tue, 26 Jun 2012 06:55:34 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
That was the sign that killed me. Let's assume good faith on the part of these people. It's very brave of them to march openly in support of their friends and family and fellow citizens in opposition to their church doctrine. I'm not religious and never have been, but I see the silencing efforts and effects of organized religion all the time, and these people are taking a HUGE step going against that culture. Yay for them!
Posted by zobot]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 16:22:20 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> Posted by Geni]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:07:52 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
Nic @30: "I don't think anything could make you happy." Here's what would make me happy: people not telling me how beautiful their religion is when it lobbies hard against civil equality. I don't care if shcaba wants to be a Mormon. I just don't want to hear the "It's beautiful because I've chosen to ignore the component that the majority of my fellow Mormons still endorse" swill.

Let me roll out an equivalent statement: "The KKK is a fine organization, and its beliefs are broad, grand, and beautiful. I don't agree with the doctrine of white supremacy, but it's enlightened Klansmen like me who are pushing forward with the agenda of change. Don't you want the KKK to become better?" In fact, if you take shcaba's post and replace "Church" with "KKK," then you'll have some idea of how I feel about it.
Posted by Mike]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:04:48 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
People reconciling a more liberal outlook within the context of their faith is a good thing, if you care about liberal values. Churches moving (however slowly) in a more liberal direction is a good thing, if you care about liberal values.

I say this as a former Christian who left my faith behind largely because I could not make such a reconciliation, myself. (There was also the small matter that I did not and could not believe in God, anymore.)

I'd love to see a world without religion. I believe, as I imagine that you do, that would be a much better place. But it ain't gonna happen anytime soon, or likely ever. And to try to force the issue is not only pointless, it's generally counter-productive. Don't alienate allies.
Posted by bleedingheartlibertarian]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:13:45 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> Grab your torches everyone! As soon as the tide turns on our civil rights, let's round up all the Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Jews, Muslims..... and send them to the gallows!!! Off with their bigotted heads I say!
Posted by Quiet Riot]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:13:49 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
There are plenty of things I disagree with concerning the Mormon faith, but to see ~75 of their members march in support of marriage equality yesterday at Pride is fantastic. I personally know a married couple who are Mormon and were in the parade with their two kids and strongly believe in the right for gays to be married.
Posted by Nic in Greenlake]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:32:16 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> And why would you want forward thinking people to leave the Church?

How about to continue their intellectual liberation from superstition and the tyranny of being told what to think? Until recently they supported denying civil rights to people because of their religion. But now they're still cozying up to that religion, the same one that told them that denying civil rights is a good thing. That's ridiculous.

Our doctrine is broad, grand and beautiful. It is for everyone.


Interesting theory. But you're not in charge, and odds are you never will be. You don't get to make it "broad, grand and beautiful" just by saying so, and you don't get to reverse your church's abysmal record on human rights by writing about how wonderful it is on the internet. Tell me how broad, grand, and beautiful it is when the mormon church is donating money to support gay marriage amendments. Until then, it's as ugly as sin.

Decreasing ignorance and acting on evidence is a valuable way to make and recognize change.


I agree. But religion is based on belief, not evidence. Most people who oppose gay marriage oppose it because of what they read in a book that was written thousands of years ago by humans, and edited and translated many times over those thousands of years by other humans. They want to make policy based on that. Show me the evidence there. Show me how broad, grand and beautiful it is to tell an entire class of people that they're inhuman because you read it in a book.

Maybe I read in a book that all mormons are polygamists. Maybe my religion is that because I read in a book that you don't understand that marriage is between one man and one woman, that you shouldn't be allowed to get married at all, and maybe we'll let you have civil unions if you get real uppity about it, but NO KIDS ever, not even adopted. Do I have evidence to support any of this? No, fuck no, but it's what I believe. I've got faith that it's true, and it's in a book that I like, and that's what matters, and you better respect my faith.

Fuck that, and fuck your "broad, grand and beautiful." Don't try to feed me that horseshit while your "broad, grand and beautiful" is telling people they're less equal than others. You've got a lot of fucking nerve singing the praises of your church here. What an asshole.
Posted by Mike]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:12:09 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> But the majority of the above comments make it seem like people do not want the Church to change. Why wouldn't you have full support for those who marched yesterday? Those I know who participated did it with one intention: love for their neighbor. That's it, that's all. And yes, most if many of them voted and are voting for Obama, but that really doesn't matter.
And why would you want forward thinking people to leave the Church? It is a lay Church with no one making money on their service to it. They are the ones who create the culture for change.
When making change, you usually don't throw out the growing baby with the bathwater.
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Posted by shcaba]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:16:44 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
see 26
Posted by right. you don't have any, either]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:17:11 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
please supply evidence that mormon tithing funds are used to SUPPRESS GAY "RIGHTS" *sob!*....

right.

you don't have any.....
Posted by FactCheck#1]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:16:06 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> Posted by tomsj]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:13:00 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
But what does matter to them is the number of followers they have. That's how they measure themselves. That's how they influence policy. That's how they fill their coffers. Membership. That's what it all comes down to. This is why schism is always the force behind change in religion: reformation comes after large groups bail on the church to form their own group. If you want to change your religion, quit, do it loudly, let them know why, and take as many people with you as you can.

Thisbe @22:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Mormons who support marriage equality probably don't have any interest in taking y'all's advice to quit the church. That's because in general they believe in the Mormon theology and think that most of what the church does with tithe money is good.


You really think the average Mormon is a Mormon because he spent a lot of time considering theology and policy? You think the average religious person does a big cost-benefit analysis and compares his religion to others and decides that way? I think that's a shockingly naive point of view. Religious people overwhelmingly have the religion they grew up with. It's not a rational choice, it's a lifestyle that they learned from their parents in the majority of cases. That's the inertia that lets religions push their retrograde social beliefs on the rest of us even when their members disagree. It's what makes members of religions that push evil agendas (no condoms in Africa, no abortion in any case, no civil equality for sodomites) complicit in those evils.

"I'm a Mormon who supports gay marriage." 95% of the power in that sentence is in the first three words. The rest is icing.

Posted by Mike]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 07:42:58 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> to the LDS church, not from it.

For fuck's sake people...take yes for an answer. We need all the allies we can get, here.
Posted by bleedingheartlibertarian]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 07:06:07 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]>
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Mormons who support marriage equality probably don't have any interest in taking y'all's advice to quit the church. That's because in general they believe in the Mormon theology and think that most of what the church does with tithe money is good. They also think that their church is currently misguided on the issue of civil marriage equality, and are doing their best to think of ways to help change the attitudes of other Mormons (and, perhaps even more importantly to them, express their love and support for same-sex couples who want civil marriage).

I guess you can go ahead and scorn their efforts - it kind of makes you look churlish and probably discourages some other support - but whatever.
Posted by Thisbe]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:59:40 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Breaking from Their Church, Mormons March in Seattle's Gay Pride Parade]]> Posted by moosefan]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:24:30 -0700 The Stranger