http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=14850048 Comments On: Savage Love by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Fri, 24 May 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Fri, 24 May 2013 08:15:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Posted by LTLFTC]]> Wed, 24 Oct 2012 09:54:59 -0700 The Stranger Posted by Jetkl]]> Tue, 09 Oct 2012 20:58:25 -0700 The Stranger Posted by scleary]]> Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:18:55 -0700 The Stranger Posted by scleary]]> Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:12:45 -0700 The Stranger No arguing or egging anybody on---I'm just saying. Peace.
Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Wed, 03 Oct 2012 22:59:47 -0700 The Stranger
Posted by AFD]]> Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:27:32 -0700 The Stranger
I just looked her up and she's written a LOT of books, what do you think is a good starting point?
Posted by mydriasis]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 18:37:17 -0700 The Stranger
Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a try.
Posted by mydriasis]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 18:34:21 -0700 The Stranger
Mydriasis, read bell hooks.
Posted by Ms.11]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 18:06:16 -0700 The Stranger don't try to label people who changed the world as negative idiots because you spoke to a few who said something inarticulate. That's just shameful.
Peace.


Posted by Ms.11]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 18:01:34 -0700 The Stranger don't try to label people who changed the world as negative ignoramuses.
Peace.


Posted by Ms.11]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 18:00:33 -0700 The Stranger
I remember an earlier feminist wave. Friends of mine, PhDs- and I not yet out of college, screaming into my face that the reason boys excelled in strength and endurance tests was they were encouraged to run when they were young.

Feminists are no more respectful of the lessons of science than creationists. The genders have been apart hundreds of millions of years.

I think it's smarter to try to understand the gender differences than pretend they don't exist.
Posted by Hunter78]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 17:16:48 -0700 The Stranger
Two things.

One, I said innately. So, while it may be unavoidable to admit that there is a correlation, that socialization you mentioned is often brought out as he only possible cause. (Or, the overwhelmingly dominant cause)

Two: feminists arguing the other side?

"Some feminists do think certain gendered traits are innate. These are the type who would celebrate the fact that women are better able to communicate (or something). I personally disagree."

Shurenka did just a few posts back.
Posted by mydriasis]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 15:24:24 -0700 The Stranger
I think the dominant feminist viewpoint is that height is correlated with gender (for whatever definition of gender: chromosomes, genitals, self-perception, external perception). Also hormonal balance is correlated with gender. And yes, many other traits, such as spatial relations, linguistic ability, maybe math -- though testing these correlations is virtually impossible due to the selective reinforcements provided by our socialization.

Who are the feminists you see arguing the other side?
Posted by EricaP]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 12:41:05 -0700 The Stranger
I actually don't need your permission to identify how I choose. Like I said, if anyone has a suggestion for what I should read they're more than welcome, if not, they can go ahead and accept that I'll use whatever terms for myself that I feel are appropriate.

Finally, if you want to talk about consistency, how aout this? I also believe in equality for all races. Hey - why don't I have to wear a label for that?
Posted by mydriasis]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 12:23:57 -0700 The Stranger
Thanks for sharing. My original point was mostly that I don't think we can make assumptions about what someone believes just because they don't identify as feminist (much like we can't make assumptions about what someone believes because they do identify as feminist).

Frankly, if a guy does identify as a feminist, there's a large chance we'll disagree on something significant (you'll at least admit that it's possible that my opinions would put me in the minority among feminists). I've never met a guy who identified as a feminist who was anything close to what I find attractive in a male.

@ Erica

I think men are more boxed in by gender roles in a lot of ways - but women suffer from sexism way way more. Especially if you look at things globally (which I do).

I like that I can listen to whatever music I want, wear whatever clothes I want, and I'm allowed to cry and have feelings. But at the same time? Not having to worry about being raped would be mighty nice.

Basically my main point is this: men are typically taller and bigger than women. Some women are bigger than some men, but by and large, men tend to be bigger. A lot of feminists vehemently deny that the same could be true in the brain (or if it, it's just a result of environment and isn't innate). I think it's highly unlikely that sexual dimorphism doesn't affect the brain in any way.

So one cliche is math, that men are better at math. Now look, I'm better at math than most men. I'm pretty sure there's no evidence for that cliche, but for the sake of argument let's use it for an example. Say it was completely proven that men were better at math and that this had nothing to do with socialization. Would it matter? In my opinion, no. Nor would it matter if men were in fact more rational, or even more intelligent than women (in the same way that they're "taller" than women). That's what disturbs me about the whole 'innateness' question. I'm inclined to believe that some things are innate (in the way tallness is innate) but why on Earth have feminists appeared to hinge their argument for equality on competence? This isn't a conscious decision but it's hard for me to ignore. Plus it's kind of ableist.

Aaanyway. To answer your question, I consider gender roles in a similar way to sexuality or handedness. Most men like women, most women like men, most people are right handed. We didn't stop forcing left handed people to use their right hand by ignoring handedness or pretending everyone's just ambidextrous or that left-handedness is as common as right handedness.

The argument for LGBT rights doesn't hinge on the idea that sexual orientation doesn't exist or that being gay is just as common as being straight. It would be similarly absurd to suggest that cisgendered people don't comprise the majority of the population. But that doesn't mean we don't respect or care about trans people.

There are some traits of mine that are less common in females, I consider myself 'left handed' in those ways, and 'right handed' in most others. Whereas the dominant feminist viewpoint is to suggest that no traits correlate with gender innately. I'm more inclined to consider left-handedness as benign than deny that right-handedness is more common.
Posted by mydriasis]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 12:14:02 -0700 The Stranger
"you never see women complaining about not having to ask men out or pay for dinner..." that sort of thing.

@141

I've never seen somebody say, "I don't identify myself as X because there isn't another X I completely agree with about everything," where X was not feminism. I have seen fellow atheists completely disgusted with current atheist thought who still call themselves atheists. Because they are atheists, is why.

You are not even consistent about how you self identify.

Let's look at your issue with abortion because a few things jump out at me about that.

I'll guess that you are outside of the first trimester when you apply the term "person". We're not talking about the morning after pill. Because there is a period in pregnancy where you would have to believe in a soul to call the thing being discussed a "person".

We can assume personhood and make an argument for second trimester abortion. You've not read the thought experiment about a fully grown human who has to be attached to your body and feed off of your blood supply and the food you eat in order to live? Would it be ethical to require you, by law, to do that? You don't know the discussion or you are pretending not to know or you are forgetting about it.

I'm not offering to have that argument with you. I'm saying it exists and it is interesting and it treats the situation as two humans with rights where one must tragically be denied those rights.

But, assuming for argument's sake that the argument that frustrates you is the only one you can find, I don't think your response to it follows. Is it a feminist argument? No. It is an issue that feminists discuss. But it isn't a feminist argument. It's a pro-choice argument. And you just called yourself pro-choice.

So, why do you use this as a reason not to call yourself a feminist. Why is that a sticking point for calling yourself feminist but not pro-choice?

Why aren't you worried that calling yourself pro-choice might imply that you subscribe to the "pregnant women should be allowed to do whatever they want, you guys" argument?

And, it is not fair to refer to bloggers. For real. Blogger's aren't generally experts or the best minds on the topic. They are usually just normal people with internet access who are good at getting people riled up. You disagree with most bloggers? I think that's the point.
Posted by shw3nn]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 12:05:14 -0700 The Stranger
mydriasis@141, when you suggest some gender traits are innate, what do you mean? That people who feel they don't have some gender-appropriate trait are deluded? Or that such traits fall on a spectrum where people with some female traits are more likely (but not guarenteed) to have other female traits?
Posted by EricaP]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 11:22:33 -0700 The Stranger
Also, FWIW, I certainly don't support doing "whatever" to a fetus and I don't like "yes means yes".

And at your point in 142, hah, well yeah gender standards can be limiting to males, and I don't want to start an anecdote war but I have honestly never heard that as a reason for identifying as feminist. Most male feminists I've seen identified as such because they realized sexism was a problem, and they wanted to show their support and not be part of that problem.
Posted by shurenka]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 05:11:50 -0700 The Stranger Posted by mydriasis]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 04:52:36 -0700 The Stranger
That's the other thing I've heard before. Oh, you just disagree with "straw" feminists from sitcoms, not real feminists. No. Look, my best friend is a feminist, and she comes closer to my opinions than any other feminist when it comes to those issues but we still disagree (though it's slightly more of a matter of taste/emotion at our point). She's also (after many the conversation) come to understand why I don't identify as a feminist and accept it as valid.

It's not about straw feminists. Pervocracy is often name dropped here (I read her whole blog) as being a nonconventional, sex-positive feminist. But I still disagree with her on most feminist issues.

If you'd like me to elaborate more:

1. I think it's likely that some gender roles or traits are innate - and even if they are, it doesn't make a difference to the matter of equality. I also quite enjoy gender roles and don't think making them go away is the answer to the problem.

2. I'm pro-choice, but I'm extremely frustrated with feminists for getting caught up in the Christian-generated "personhood" argument. Of course a fetus is a person - and as such, I don't dig the whole "pregnant women should be allowed to do whatever they want, you guys" argument.

3. I am pretty strongly opposed to the "yes means yes" argument (as regular posters saw from a few weeks back or whatever it was).

Posted by mydriasis]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 04:50:26 -0700 The Stranger Posted by shurenka]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 04:49:52 -0700 The Stranger
Probably not, since my subject matter has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or the humanities.

You must not be looking for them!

Curious what subject matter YOU are in, though, where "male feminists"=benevolent sexism.
Posted by shurenka]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 04:46:42 -0700 The Stranger Thank you!
Your explanation made me like the term "equalism" even better, at least as long as sexism is concerned.

I know the benevolently sexist type. Still don't like it when men call themselves "feminist". Maybe because it makes me feel like they think they have to help those poor little wifeys fight their fight.

And while I have spent all of my 20s in academia, I haven't met many male feminists. So it is probably less academia, but your subject matter, I'd assume.

Posted by migrationist]]> Tue, 02 Oct 2012 03:51:21 -0700 The Stranger http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcint…. (If it doesn't work, google "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack".)
Posted by shurenka]]> Mon, 01 Oct 2012 22:53:15 -0700 The Stranger