http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=15449252 Comments On: Savage Love by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Wed, 22 May 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Wed, 22 May 2013 01:15:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss
Poly people, of course, encounter plenty of bigotry and I understand why they want to compare themselves to gays in order to piggyback on the acceptance that the gay movement has achieved. But that doesn't make them identical, and it's not bigoted to point that out. Poly people aren't hurting anybody, and we should promote tolerance. But I don't think we should have to declarify the meaning of "orientation" to make that happen.
Posted by I have always been... east coaster]]> Tue, 30 Apr 2013 07:19:27 -0700 The Stranger Poly-sigh.
Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:56:23 -0800 The Stranger Posted by dinana]]> Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:01:43 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Becker]]> Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:26:37 -0800 The Stranger Posted by quinkygirl]]> Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:33:49 -0800 The Stranger
@252 It's not exhausting at all if you a.) Know yourself well and b.) Take time to get to know someone a little bit before sex clouds the issue. When I met my last lover, we dated for almost two months before consummating things. I dated a whole bunch of guys at that time without getting groiny with any of them. The one that I chose emerged as the clear winner. So far, over a year in, I'm realizing that I chose well.

In my humble opinion, the key things about being successfully poly are pretty much the same things that it takes to be successfully human:

Keep an open heart, act with compassion, and look out for those around you. Own it when you fuck up. And most of all -- KNOW THYSELF. Know and accept that you WILL get hurt. When that happens, don't seek revenge. Move on after grieving for an appropriate time.

Be secure in yourself. Work on those areas where you have insecurities. Ask for what you need. Really listen to others. Treat metamours (the other lovers of your lover) with warmth and compassion. Don't be a sneaky fuck. Be proactive about sexual health and honest about any issues that arise. Remember to develop interests outside the love-life.

Don't fear being alone sometimes.

Being whole-heartedly poly, like being whole-heartedly monogamous (or actually being whole-heartedly anyplace in between) is a great opportunity for personal growth. No matter if we chose this or didn't choose it (I obviously come down for me on the "didn't choose it" side), the key thing is to live our lives according to our own deepest inner truth(s), as long as we aren't hurting anyone else.
Posted by quinkygirl]]> Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:05:17 -0800 The Stranger Thank you for providing one more reason why I'm so happily single, and have long since moved on.
Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:55:55 -0800 The Stranger
Man, does that sound like someone I know well ;-)!


Posted by kserasera]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:31:24 -0800 The Stranger Dan himself said that poly is not an identity. This is a direct quote from his response to the original letter writer (emphasis added):

"You are not "a poly."

POLY IS NOT A SEXUAL IDENTITY, PP, it's not a sexual orientation. It's not something you are, it's something you do. There's no such thing as a person who is "a poly," just as there's no such thing as a person who is "a monogamous." Polyamorous and monogamous are adjectives, not nouns. There are only people—gay, straight, bi—and some people are in monogamous relationships, some are in open relationships, some are in polyamorous relationships, some are in monogamish relationships, some are in four-star-general relationships. These are relationship models, PP, not sexual identities."

Posted by EmilyTwist]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:08:01 -0800 The Stranger Posted by sanguisuga]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:54:52 -0800 The Stranger
"I'm not that, so this isn't important. Let's move on."

"I've never met any (that came out to me about their initiate lifestyle), so it isn't important. Let's move on."

"Quibbling over terminology, like we are actual experts on sexuality and entomology and human evolution. Now I'm bored. Let's move on."

"How dare those assholes say they are hard-wired for something and can't have a proper relationship without it! We all manage."

"It doesn't make any difference whether they have this identity or not. It only negatively affects their lives and families because they are pervs.."

"I can't imagine how that would work equitably and without harm. Therefore, it can't and must not be a good idea."

"I want to marry (an object, an animal, an idea.) Therefore, that's my sexual identity. I'm dismissing the entire idea with my unique cleverness. Let's move on."

You'll all notice, I trust, that each and every one of those arguments has been used to discredit the LBGT communities insistence on recognizing and legitimizing their sexual identities. And I say identities for a reason, because orientation doesn't apply to trans, which IS included. Those who self-identified as TS or TV are not required to be attracted to any gender in particular. It is entirely their *sexual identity* that is supported by the community.

The reason you are all getting so angry, or pretending to be bored in an attempt to suppress, even though you bothered to write in about it, is because you know that poly is a sexual identity. The letters prove it; the responses prove it. The same tired and invalid arguments are used against it, the same impotent and irrational anger at a lifestyle the posters claim not to even share but still need to be upset about, all the while knowing that other identifies are included in the Community that have nothing to do with whom one is attracted to.

Those of you who are in fact poly and felt forced into the mono culture around us have alot of anger, and much invested in the status quo. Like many of the homos in the last century, you need to lash out against those who are freely expressing that sexuality and rocking the boat in a way that you are jealous of and feel you can't have. And get them to shut the hel up and stop sticking it in your face. And why should they have any fun if you can't? Need proof? How about this theme running through the comments?

"Men need other partners, but we've been forced to accept only one in our society, so suck it up, buttercups. Let's move on."

Poly is an identity. We form communities, we raise our children, and we sometimes have to fight to keep all those. Yes, it's about relationships *and* sex and family, same as an orientation. Like LBGT orientations and trans-identities, or intersexed, we will be recognized, because it is justified, and our lives depend on it. We will do it all by ourselves if we have to, with or without your help, but we would prefer to have it. If we can't count on you, at least don't be piss on us like the rest of this culture. You, like them, will be on the wrong side of history.
Posted by Treasach]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:46:09 -0800 The Stranger
"How do you know that someone presenting themselves as poly is not actually a cheating mono person?"

Good point. How does anyone really know it's just not fluffed-up b.s. dressed in nice clothing?

I can see your point, Lilaj: who's to say someone isn't using the poly rap to try to get in other people's pants dishonorably, but justifying it with an 'ism' attached to it?

I guess you can tell when someone can't tie themselves down to one particular person. You can spot those types easily. I dunno. I'm kinda burnt out on all the isms, buzzwords, catchphrases, yaddayaddayadda.

Pick a set of genitals and work with that. Don't be greedy ;) lol!

@ 261, sissoucat: Thanks :-) . And to Everyone, Peace & Happy Christmas, as John Lennon would say :-) .
Posted by kserasera]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:43:08 -0800 The Stranger
That's not a sexual orientation, it's a relationship orientation.
***
Some bisexuals don't have a strong desire to be with someone of a particular sex--they can be happy with either. But some bisexuals (I think a minority) actually do have a strong desire to be with a person of EACH gender that they are attracted to. And that's fine too!
***
How do you know that someone presenting themselves as poly is not actually a cheating mono person? You say you want to talk to their other partner(s) before things go anywhere. Of course, a cheater could get people to lie for them, but this is true regardless of mono or poly.
Posted by LilaJ]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:46:53 -0800 The Stranger I prefer monogamy, but it's possible I could be happy with polyamory too. However, there are some people who just can't be happy in a non-monogamous relationship, and there are some people who just can't be happy in a monogamous one. And many of those people are hard-wired to be the way they are.

That's not a sexual orientation, it's a relationship orientation.
***
Some bisexuals don't have a strong desire to be with someone of a particular sex--they can be happy with either. But some bisexuals (I think a minority) actually do have a strong desire to be with a person of EACH gender that they are attracted to. And that's fine too!
***
How do you know that someone presenting themselves as poly is not actually a cheating mono person? You say you want to talk to their other partner(s) before things go anywhere. Of course, a cheater could get people to lie for them, but this is true regardless of mono or poly.
Posted by LilaJ]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:41:18 -0800 The Stranger
She invited me to and introduced me to a larger poly group in our area. It was super-duper sketchy: everyone had to arrange child care and brought hot-dish to the pot-luck! There I met her husband and her serious boyfriend.

I'm not saying everyone does it this way, but people who are being ethical are transparent and honest about it - even if they don't have a public dating profile, will be comfortable with you talking to spouse/partner - at least to confirm that they have permission to play. If someone won't do that for you, then just walk away.
Posted by AFinch]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:16:18 -0800 The Stranger
To actual polys : how do you check that an unknown, presenting himself as poly, married guy is not a mono cheating on his wife ? It's a practical question I've asked before, and I've not had definite answers.

-- triggering --

@ankylosaur - so, does your renewed presence here mean that you have changed your mind on "sex being ethical between a child and an adult, as long as another adult is supervising" - aka advocacing pedophily ?

Other readers, sorry for this vomit-inducing reminder. Survivor of incest duty, kind of thing.
Posted by sissoucat]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2012 07:12:31 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Ijustwanaleaveacommentusillygits]]> Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:39:26 -0800 The Stranger Posted by xjuan]]> Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:07:29 -0800 The Stranger
Poly or Mono refers to the relationship, specifically the number of people involved in it. However, gay/bi/straight/trans/et al refers to the individual's identity, his/her personal idea of being and the kinds of individuals he or she feels attracted to.

How many individuals at a time? One, two, many, who’s counting? That doesn’t change the preference.

I understand that the number can be so important and intrinsical to some people, that it can become part of how they see themselves, of their sexual identity. However, I still don’t see it as something we have to move from its corresponding side of the dictionary. The number is not part of the orientation, unlike the kinds of persons one feels attracted to.

I agree with you, Dan.

Posted by xjuan]]> Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:02:45 -0800 The Stranger
Poly or Mono refers to the relationship, specifically the number of people involved in it. However, gay/bi/straight/trans/et al refers to the individual's identity, his/her personal idea of being and the kinds of individuals he or she feels attracted to.

How many individuals at a time? One, two, many, who’s counting? That doesn’t change the preference.

I understand that the number can be so important and intrinsical to some people, that it can become part of how they see themselves, of their sexual identity. However, I still don’t see it as something we have to move from its corresponding side of the dictionary. The number is not part of the orientation, unlike the kinds of persons one feels attracted to.

I agree with you, Dan.

Posted by xjuan]]> Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:58:19 -0800 The Stranger Posted by AFinch]]> Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:40:30 -0800 The Stranger .
Glad to see I was right.
.
I've known some folks (like the one husband mentioned) that are mono - strong sex drive, just not interested in multi.

I've known others that pretty much screwed whatever came by. I tend to call them swingers (sorry if I stepped on your label).. Think glory holes.

But, polys are the ones that want to love (or at least get to know) their partners. With honesty.

Re the folks who think polly = horny. I know a polly marriage (polly fidelity group) where I don't think they have any more sex than most later middle aged folks. It's about fixing the kitchen light & why is that dog throwing up - not nightly (or weekly) orgies. I've been around these folks enough to be pretty sure: It's for family not for sex.

Yea, they wake up next to more than one person. Then they get ready and go to work while finding a Hello Kitty backpack and trying to get cereal out of their briefcase. Just like Mr. & Mrs. Vanilla down the street.

As to the labels vs identity thing: I think the letter above hit it "...polyamorous innately. I feel I am wired to be like this. I didn't choose it..." sound familiar? So I go with "identity".

That being said, it's all BS: There is no such thing as "gay" "straight" "polly" etc. It's all words. Dan Savage is Dan Savage, Sue Smith is Sue Smith. You may be / act / choose some set of things that earns the (human contrived) labels we find so significant. But whether by choice or a bump on the head next week you can be / act / choose some other set that will get you a whole new label. The label is not the object.

It's like that chunk of material out in space we call Pluto. It isn't any different because ape mouth noises changed from planet to dwarf planet. We may treat it different, we may treat each other different because of labels... But, it and we are not the labels.


Posted by Ijustwanaleaveacommentusillygitsnotnukes]]> Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:10:19 -0800 The Stranger .
Glad to see I was right.
.
I've known some folks (like the one husband mentioned) that are mono - strong sex drive, just not interested in multi.

I've known others that pretty much screwed whatever came by. I tend to call them swingers (sorry if I stepped on your label).. Think glory holes.

But, polys are the ones that want to love (or at least get to know) their partners. With honesty.

Re the folks who think polly = horny. I know a polly marriage (polly fidelity group) where I don't think they have any more sex than most later middle aged folks. It's about fixing the kitchen light & why is that dog throwing up - not nightly (or weekly) orgies. I've been around these folks enough to be pretty sure: It's for family not for sex.

Yea, they wake up next to more than one person. Then they get ready and go to work while finding a Hello Kitty backpack and trying to get cereal out of their briefcase. Just like Mr. & Mrs. Vanilla down the street.

As to the labels vs identity thing: I think the letter above hit it "...polyamorous innately. I feel I am wired to be like this. I didn't choose it..." sound familiar? So I go with "identity".

That being said, it's all BS: There is no such thing as "gay" "straight" "polly" etc. It's all words. Dan Savage is Dan Savage, Sue Smith is Sue Smith. You may be / act / choose some set of things that earns the (human contrived) labels we find so significant. But whether by choice or a bump on the head next week you can be / act / choose some other set that will get you a whole new label. The label is not the object.

It's like that chunk of material out in space we call Pluto. It isn't any different because ape mouth noises changed from planet to dwarf planet. We may treat it different, we may treat each other different because of labels... But, it and we are not the labels.


Posted by Ijustwanaleaveacommentusillygits]]> Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:56:36 -0800 The Stranger
Cheers and all the best and merry Mayan end of the world, and lots of meows!! :-)
Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:35:09 -0800 The Stranger
A touche' of my own, to quote you:

"I think the stress and drama increase as a function of the exponential power of the number of partners involved."

That's another reason why I would never be a natural for being poly: the more people that are involved, the more drama you will have, no matter how even-keeled anyone is. Some people get off on that kind of near-frantic activity, enjoying multiple relationships and stuff. Some people love being at the center of the action..

I just don't get it, but I respect anyone's choice to do what they wanna do. I love having one great thing and putting my best energies and time into that. I seriously lucked out in life to have found who I did. So much so that I honestly wouldn't jeopardize what we share for anything, or, anyone else in the world. The trippy thing is still being this happy and into him and it's been seventeen years.. I wouldn't trade that time in my life for anyone or any piece of strange. There's such a brilliant, almost in-jokey sort of rapport and chemistry. We're very close, and it would kill me to do anything to harm him, or what we've built together.

I used to think I was commitment-shy until I found love... So, it makes me wonder: is some polyamorous behavior due to an aversion to not wanting to face other troubling issues in one's life, or is it just not that complicated at all and that some people just need a few extra side-orders of tail?

Not that I know anything, but somehow I think it might be a combination of both: perhaps some troubling issues burbling underneath the more outward stance of being poly by choice..

More power to any of you polyamorous peeps, but how do you do it? How do you start over with someone else and bring them up to speed about who you are, what you like, etc.? It just sounds so exhausting, all of that activity..

I'm lucky, 'cos who I'm with is still delightful to be around and he keeps me on my toes, *yet* there's a very solid bond and a lot of love that keeps us around one another. I'd be the biggest ass on the planet if I threw that aside for anything, or, anyone else.

I never used to be able to seriously concentrate or focus on one person until I fell truly in love: seventeen++years ago.

:-)

@ 250, Auntie Grizelda: I wish my cat lived to be 17+. Mine too had to be put down at age 13 'cos of kidney trouble. Man, was that one devastating, exhausting day the day he was put down.. I was in the room the whole time: petting him throughout the whole process, providing as much comfort and solace as I could..

It was so sad not having a cat after that that I wound up adopting two cats that grew up together about 10 days after I had to put my cat down to sleep.

I feel bad for anyone who doesn't know, experience or appreciate the love of a cat.

Indeed: Happy Holidays To Everyone! I can't top what you wrote Auntie G., so I'll leave it as your word being the gospel!

:-)

Posted by kserasera]]> Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:33:39 -0800 The Stranger