http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=15876642 Comments On: Savage Love by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Mon, 20 May 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Mon, 20 May 2013 11:30:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss
Yes, it's okay to feel cheated on when someone lies to you or breaks an agreement.

Are you coming here to ask that question, or to ask whether it's reasonable to be upset when your boyfriend watches porn? I guess it's okay to be upset about whatever you want to be upset about, provided you've communicated clearly beforehand, but it may not serve you well.

If you want a boyfriend who doesn't watch porn, good luck--most guys do, many girls do, and the number of creative, versatile, knowledgeable guys who don't watch porn is probably very small indeed. What do you hope to gain by controlling someone's thoughts or choice of entertainment?

Are you hoping that Dan will convince you that you shouldn't be upset by porn? You'd have to talk a little more about why you're upset; maybe find one of the therapists he mentions in the previous letter (and remember that it would serve you well to ignore any stigma against therapy that you may have--a good therapist is gold!).
Posted by something]]> Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:57:14 -0800 The Stranger Posted by BellyDancer72]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2013 19:32:51 -0800 The Stranger
Who called women who didn't like porn crazy?

Not liking porn isn't crazy.

Telling your significant other they can't watch porn is crazy.

Believing them when they say they won't is batshit crazy.

It has nothing to do with being a woman. It goes equally for men as for women. It's just rare that a man takes that stance. But if he did he would be just as crazy.

Trying to control your spouses' sexual activity to that degree, however, is controlling and insecure.

Posted by Fortunate]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2013 07:58:30 -0800 The Stranger A little sour, huh..
Posted by mydriasis]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2013 04:53:53 -0800 The Stranger
You don't get it. In this time-culture men find it easy and enjoyable to watch porn. If some women find that a dilemna, they're putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage.


Posted by Hunter78]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 17:50:30 -0800 The Stranger Men need to stop being so cowardly and desperate, and actually date women with whom they are compatible.Also, calling women who don't like porn 'crazy' is misogynistic; women are perfectly entitled to find porn degrading. If SAD is disgusted and feels betrayed by her boyfriend,then she should end the relationship.
Posted by Mozzer]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 14:56:33 -0800 The Stranger Posted by ForEmpathy]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 14:17:29 -0800 The Stranger
@256: Sometimes it's not just a threat. Sometimes a person is actually suicidal, something I have learned from personal experience. (Relatively) happily for me, nobody I was dating at the time or had recently broken up with has successfully committed suicide... I'd like to think this is partly because I have figured out when to be sensitive in telling the truth, and when the truth just isn't something that my S.O. can deal with at the time when the question is asked.

Lying is bad, but sometimes there really aren't good options.
Posted by dale1]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 13:02:46 -0800 The Stranger
However, yes, if pressed: people deserve honesty from those who care about them most, even if nobody else does. The suicide threat doesn't make the lying OK, nor does the threat of high drama responses - these are actually emotional manipulation.
Posted by AFinch]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 06:10:50 -0800 The Stranger
I think such an arrangement is pretty hard to find; many emotionally-bonded partners would simply find it too objectifying an agreement to consider, and I wouldn't blame them. Frankly, that's not an arrangement I would want to propose, unless I was faced with a girlfriend who was trying to get me to quit watching porn. Even then, I would feel pretty ashamed admitting I had those kinds of needs to my partner, and like I was overburdening them with unrealistic requests.

So, from my viewpoint, there is some amount of irony in the LW's complaint, in that getting those meaningless releases out of the way takes a pretty large burden off of her shoulders. You could take the point of view that one "shouldn't need" to get off that often, but that's not very sex-positive, and would probably lead to a very frustrated partner.
Posted by uncelestial]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 01:37:17 -0800 The Stranger Posted by kimbutler001]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 01:19:47 -0800 The Stranger Posted by mydriasis]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 18:14:43 -0800 The Stranger
Don't get me wrong, my example was extreme. But having been asked the relevant questions myself in a previous relationship, I know that it can happen. (Yes, even the bit about the best friend was, in fact, asked.) Personally, I chose the option that I thought was less likely to end in suicide, since that was a serious risk at the time. It didn't end up saving the relationship, but it might have saved a life.

This is, of course, only tangentially related to the letter written to Dan up top... but seriously, honesty is NOT always the best policy. Period.
Posted by dale1]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:31:34 -0800 The Stranger Posted by cockyballsup]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:41:48 -0800 The Stranger Posted by AFinch]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:19:10 -0800 The Stranger Nothing I said was wrong as far as I can see it.

My point was that lying in that situation makes sense. Not that it is the best choice. But it makes perfect sense.

It often is kinder to lie. Kindness isn't always the best choice, but that doesn't change the fact that a lie can be the kinder option.

Yes, I was defending the lie. Defending isn't advocating as the best option.

But ultimately what I said boils down to this line:

"If your wife / GF is going to get all upset about it then you either lie to them about it or you get them upset."

Sorry, but that statement is 100% accurate. I call the lie a kindness since it isn't about something that actually can cause the other harm.

If other's don't agree, fine.

But I never said that it was the choice a person SHOULD make. Nor is it the choice I would make.

But everyone is acting like the guy who lies in this instance is some kind of uncaring abusive monster. My point is that, No, he's a fairly average guy doing what a whole lot of guys would do in that situation, and it is perfectly understandable and often motivated as much out of a desire to be kind as anything else.
Posted by Fortunate]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 07:57:29 -0800 The Stranger unless they prompted by asking you straight up?

Yes, of course, men and women, notice other people and find people other than their partners sexually attractive, and some other people more attractive. Only someone who is subtly abusive goes around pointing them out to their partner, or commenting on how, particularly when (to use your example) they've started to make a change.

My ex-wife first ballooned weight-wise (losing her rather nice trim figure) within two years after marriage and then followed that with a period of depression - the latter was actually worse and had a worse impact on our marriage and sex life. We didn't resolve these issues, and eventually I was so alienated (emotionally mostly) that I stopped caring about trying to make it work and ultimately left her (~14 years). I never said, "you've gotten fat and unattractive and there are all these other hot women around I want to screw", even though that was entirely true. Moreover, those other women weren't depressed and a drag to be around and still felt hot and sexy enough to want to have sex.

The thing is: when we discussed those things, I focused on the behavior - and when I expressed my unhappiness about our lousy sex life, I didn't talk about her body, and instead tried to express that I wanted to have sex with someone who wanted to have sex! - horny and enthusiastic beats hot, every single time. Believe me, I take your point - I lived it.

The huge mistake I made (hindsight being 20/20) is that I didn't express the problems with the behaviors nearly early enough - I told white lies "oh, it's ok" instead of saying, no, it's not ok, and I'm tired of living under a cloud of depression. I didn't have that honesty until after things were so eroded I just didn't really care any more about losing the marriage.

@Vennominon: Heh, I'm guessing you're being snarky, but no, your odds of getting laid are much greater if you're with someone who has some respect for you and self-respect is pretty much key to that. Besides, although correlation never implies causation, I find an unpleasant coincidence of strong anti-porn attitudes with body, intimacy and general relationship issues. Just my anecdotal experience. And of course: it's always the fat, but muffintops never help things!

Mr. Fortunate, I dunno what to say, I'm reacting to your words - you start of with a pretty lengthy defense of telling lies:

Because it is a kindness to them. Virtually all guys look at porn. If your wife / GF is going to get all upset about it then you either lie to them about it or you get them upset. It is far kinder to lie to them rather than get them upset over something that doesn't, otherwise, actually harm them.

I really do agree with you with the one modification: you don't volunteer hurtful information - you are absolutely 100% correct about that, but if asked, straight up, be honest.

You are also 100% correct that the choice to lie rather than incur the predictable unhappiness is completely unsurprising. I'm just sayin', in the long run, the truth will out.
Posted by AFinch]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 07:44:01 -0800 The Stranger
Yes, should have. Should have, would have, could have.

Where does that go against my side? I never said that lying is what anyone SHOULD do. I never said it was the best option.

What I said, and still stand by, is that if you put a guy in that position many are going to see lying as a valid option, and it really isn't hard to understand why.

We can "should" the subject all we want. Reality is what it is.

The reality is that if you are anti porn and you try to tell your male partner that if they want to be with you they can't watch porn, and they have an investment in you already, there is a good chance they will lie. Yes, he isn't manning up. And the anti porn partner is creating a scenario that isn't hard to see would make the lie seem like a good option for a lot of men.

That's not something I'm advocating, or celebrating, or endorsing. People seem to think I am for some reason when I haven't suggested such a thing. All I am saying is that is what happens, and while it may not be something to advocate it is none the less understandable, and more importantly, predictable.
Posted by Fortunate]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 19:41:33 -0800 The Stranger
Stop flattering yourself for a second. I don't desire you, I'll never see you. I lust for real women.

Your constant line of attack is my age. Because of your molestation by the male relative.

Posted by Hunter78]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:25:08 -0800 The Stranger
Oh, and, as a general comment, the dress never makes anyone look fat. Try blaming instead... oh, I don't know, maybe... the fat?
Posted by vennominon]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 16:45:30 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Eirene]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:30:02 -0800 The Stranger
As for the overall argument about honesty, however, here's a slightly less extreme example than the one posted a while back of how honesty can be less than the best policy.

"Dear, I know it's entirely because of a medical condition that you're going to the doctor for and which is starting to get under control, but the thirty pounds you've put on over the past year make you less attractive. I've started noticing other women more often because of that. Also, have you ever noticed how incredibly hot your best friend/sister/etc is? Oh, and by the way, I really dislike it when you're depressed."

Because, when it comes down to it, these are terrible things to say, even if they're not entirely untrue. Being supportive to one's significant other does sometimes mean telling them what they want to hear, or at least answering their question without telling them what they don't want to hear.
Posted by dale1]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:35:26 -0800 The Stranger Do so many people really hide their true selves in order to get into relationships?

Sadly, yes. Mostly insecure people, but yes, that includes a lot of people. Also, in fairness: we change, so who we are and what we want might change a bunch over a few decades.

@198 "I believe it's better if both parties refuse unreasonable requests, rather than agree to them and then become a sneak."

THAT! That nails it perfectly. Do not make promises you can't or won't keep. It will come out sooner or later, and whatever hell-to-pay you're attempting to avoid will surely arrive regardless, with interest. Above all: do not cave into unreasonable requests right off the bat. If you think looking at porn is a normal and reasonable thing to do, don't let her threat of rejection drive you to cave...what, is her opinion of you and what is 'reasonable" more valid than yours? Think about that a while.

I was given to understand that "discretion being the better part of valor" really meant not saying things that do not have to be said. Not asking difficult questions when you don't want to hear the answer (ie, "does this dress make my ass look fat"), and not making promises you don't have to make. However, while the distinction is fine, it's plenty big enough: if you don't get asked directly and then don't lie directly, no lies have been told. If she is OK with not knowing about his porn use, and is smart enough not to ask, then she can pretend he doesn't look and he can make sure he doesn't get caught (Dan's standard advice). Once the question gets asked, that little bit of make-believe is no longer possible.

The minute she asked - an admittedly stupid question - he should have just told her the truth: I look and I'm not going to stop looking. If it's a dumping offense for her - zero tolerance policy - call her on that implied threat and make her pull the trigger. And in the process, save yourself years of feeling like a guilty sneak and becoming the 'bad guy' over someone else's insecure controlling hangups, political scruples, or whatever - because you lied and then became "the liar." The minute you tell the white lie, you opt-in like signing a cell phone contact or a credit card account.

I happen to come down on the side of "no porn" being a silly and very self-limiting requirement, but then I have my own weird little deal breakers, and so she's entitled to her own. He should save them both the added pain of deeper investment than has already occurred, and give her the opportunity to decide if it really is a deal breaker.

The amazing part is, that often these things aren't really ultimately deal breakers. And you might be giving someone an opportunity to grow and see things differently - she might view you as a misogynistic rapist because you view porn which she sees as treating women like meat puppets, or she might just start seeing the side of it that includes women enjoying (genuinely) being dominated (yes, I know this is nearly non-existent) and objectified. I think the former is generally more likely, but then, aren't you better off not stuck with someone who sees you in that way?

Sorry Mr. Fortunate: I really started out on your side of this, because I think the no-porn rule is dumb, and because LW didn't sound to me like she made a clear statement of "I don't tolerate any porn, period", but ultimately, if she told him she couldn't deal with it, he should've manned up. They sound young anyway, so maybe having a dumb breakup over a dumb lie over a dumb deal-breaker will teach them both a lesson: that these are small issues not worth tossing a good relationship over.
Posted by AFinch]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 13:21:08 -0800 The Stranger Posted by marilynsue]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 10:05:35 -0800 The Stranger Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Sun, 03 Feb 2013 22:18:08 -0800 The Stranger