http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/02/12/gun-nuts-in-college Comments On: Gun Nuts in College by Chicago Fan en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Sat, 25 May 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Sat, 25 May 2013 16:15:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss
"If all the voice and votes of the.." gun-grabbers "..went toward something constructive (pick dozens of issues), their lives might actually change for the better, along with the rest of America."

"Gun control is actually a rather peripheral part of our national madness.." And, gun violence is, statistically speaking, on the small end of the scale of things we could be worrying about.

"Once we get past the.." We don't want someone else to have a metal binky! "..part, maybe we'll evolve a little. Maybe."

Thank you, couldn't have put it better myself.
Posted by randoma]]> Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:10:40 -0800 The Stranger
People who argue for guns as catch-all Tools Of Freedom are the handmaidens of the 1%. Though gun control is actually a rather peripheral part of our national madness (more a symptom than the disease), I hope we see more of it, especially in Washington. Once we get past the "They took my metal binky!" part, maybe we'll evolve a little. Maybe.
Posted by Che Guava]]> Wed, 13 Feb 2013 05:30:09 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Theodore Gorath]]> Wed, 13 Feb 2013 05:17:26 -0800 The Stranger
I would also like to point out that someone who hangs themselves with a belt, or ingests poison, does not first strangle a bunch of other people with the belt, or go force poison down the throats of roommates.
Posted by Fishface]]> Wed, 13 Feb 2013 05:03:58 -0800 The Stranger
Where I then pointed out that all the states with high firearm ownership and high suicide rates, including the ones you mention, are extremely rural states with low population densities and low amounts spent on suicide prevention?

I've been more than happy to compare the top 5 to bottom 5 or top 10 to bottom 10, and so on. I'm not sure how that is "carefully selected". In fact, the only way to show that more firearms == more homicides is to include Louisiana without including a fair range of other high-firearm ownership states. And that's because Louisiana has a homicide rate almost double the average - it is, as you put it, as "well chosen outlier."

I've also been more than happy to discuss any aspect of firearms in the UK, Japan, China and Australia as they've come up. I Don't think we've ever talked about Denmark in any aspect though.

And since we've shown that A) more firearms != more homicides and B) more firearms in similar population densities != more suicides, please tell us, why is the UK suicide rate as high as the USA's even though they have somewhere between 1,000 and 2million (depending on whose figures you use) firearms in the entire country?

You keep telling us that more firearms == more suicides. So, assuming that the UK is more or less equal to the USA, and since the USA has at least 150 times as many firearms as the UK, you would expect there to be a more significant difference, wouldn't you? (For the record, I don't think the US and UK are equal for a whole variety of reasons - I'd much rather compare American States as I think there are fewer blatant cultural differences, but I didn't bring up other countries - I was simply responding to NateMan.)
Posted by randoma]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:23:30 -0800 The Stranger "you mean people who feel that there's too much gun violence in america? AKA the majority?"

Argumentum ad populum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_…

"do you, or do you plan to taunt us with that fact in perpetuity?"

I plan on using that fact to illustrate your faux outrage every time it comes up.
You love the statistics.
But you are indifferent to the lives of the people who make up those statistics.
You only care about whether their deaths can be used to further your personal agenda.
After someone else has sanitized them and washed all the brown out of them.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 17:51:18 -0800 The Stranger
How come the UK's suicide rate is comparable to the US, but their homicide rate isn't? How come Alaska, Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming have such a high suicide rate?

I'll only mention that there might be one or two other reasons why certain countries, like Ghana, Japan, or Russia, have a high suicide rate that doesn't have a lot to do with guns.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 16:03:08 -0800 The Stranger Posted by hifiandrew]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:38:02 -0800 The Stranger
it's true, i don't know the name of the last non-white person shot in seattle. in fact, i don't know the name of the last PERSON shot in seattle because i don't read the Times or listen to local TV/radio. do you, or do you plan to taunt us with that fact in perpetuity?

i do know the name of the last non-white person killed in Tacoma, though. Tyliah Young.
Posted by Max Solomon]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:20:56 -0800 The Stranger Posted by pupuguru]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:07:07 -0800 The Stranger
@42 Tougher licensing and registration requirements would probably make it easier for the cops to shut down the flow of guns to the black-market.
Posted by Ken Mehlman]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:52:53 -0800 The Stranger "our resident gun nuts and gun hair-splitters (that's a special new category for you, Gorath) already know that firearm suicides make up the largest portion of american firearm deaths. they just don't care."

I've posted specifically that I do not care about the suicide of someone I don't know, have never met and could not pick out of a crowd.

Neither do people like you.
You only care about whether you can use them as STATISTICS. to push your personal agenda.
You don't know their names.
You don't know what their reasons for suicide were.
You just want to use their deaths as an excuse for your personal agenda.

The same way that people like you love to quote statistics on how many people were shot per year.
But you do not know the name of the last non-white person shot in Seattle this year.
Because you do not care.
Not until they've been sanitized into clean statistics for you to use.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:45:18 -0800 The Stranger
I mean, really, China and Japan have close to zero firearm ownership but they are ranked 6th and 7th for suicide rate??? That can't be possible!
Posted by randoma]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:44:26 -0800 The Stranger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou…
Posted by NateMan]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:35:29 -0800 The Stranger
Sorry, but turning all the firearms in the country into magic pixie dust is not a good answer. Banning "assault weapons" which account for a tiny percentage of firearms violence (and close to zero suicides) is also not a good answer. (Also, an "assault weapons ban" is likely to reduce the Democrat's control of government which will make other programs that I think a majority of Slog readers support more difficult.)

As NateMan points out, pretty much everyone here who is labeled a "gun-nut" has proposed or supported things that will have a meaningful impact. The response from the "gun-control-nuts" has been derision, name-calling and cat-calls.
Posted by randoma]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:33:34 -0800 The Stranger
New York, which has the lowest suicide rate in the country as well as, one of the lowest firearm ownership rates in the country, has 2.2 firearm suicide deaths per capita and 4.49 non-firearm suicide deaths per capita. Hawaii, which has the lowest level of firearm ownership in the country has a firearm rate of 2.56 and a non-firearm rate of 12.46.

Conversely, Wyoming, which has the highest level of firearm ownership, has a firearm related rate of 13.76 and a non-firearm related rate of 8.61. Alaska, which has the highest level of suicide in the country, has a firearm related rate of 15.43 and a non-firearm related rate of 7.49.

Is there a higher level of firearm related suicide in the states with higher levels of gun ownership? Yes. No question. All of those states are also A) very rural and B) have higher suicide rates than the median (rural areas have much lower amounts of suicide prevention programs and less personal support). Does a low level of firearm ownership necessarily relate to a low suicide rate? No, it does not. In fact, the 10 lowest suicide rates by state, except for Nebraska, are all states with high population densities.

Suicide Data from here:

http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.ex…

Posted by randoma]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:27:09 -0800 The Stranger
My approach boils down to doing nothing? So in practically every thread, where I and pretty much everyone you label as 'gun nut' has agreed that mandatory gun registration, mandatory background checks, mandatory safety courses, owner licensing, trigger locks when not in use, etc. should be required counts as nothing for you? What exactly are you looking for that has even a prayer of succeeding?

And maybe, just maybe, if you stopped dismissing gun owners as eagerly awaiting the Democratic Party's hostile takeover of the country, you'd get a little further in attempts to genuinely limit unnecessary gun deaths. I suspect, though, it's more fun for you to argue about it than try to accomplish anything.
Posted by NateMan]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:26:49 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Ken Mehlman]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:23:18 -0800 The Stranger
I want to print out your comment and frame it.
Posted by keshmeshi]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:17:36 -0800 The Stranger
I don't know why you call it visceral. Look at the numbers. Years of lost life in high income North America shows that the impact is huge. Homicide and suicide are the top killers for young people. That's exactly where the data tell us our attention belongs.

"Trust me when I tell you"? I don't trust you when you tell me, because your reasoning is poor. You're stubbornly committed to anecdotes as a way to navigate through life. That's fine for your personal choices but bringing that attitude to a public policy discussion is a distraction at best.

Your approach boils down to doing nothing because human nature is flawed. We've had success with traffic deaths, with alcohol, with many things. Other countries have proven that you can reduce gun deaths: Australia put a stop to mass killings. European countries have a far lower rate of homicide. Why? Gangs? Drugs? Ennui? They have all those things. What they don't have is our massive numbers of guns.

The irony is the romantic notion that underpins "gun rights" the silly idea that gun owners will rise up and fight off tyranny. It's childish, and unrealistic. And it even distracts from taking real action against civil liberties abuses. Yet those who want to address the gun problem are driven by emotion?

We should rely on science and reason the way they have in Europe, Japan and other developed counties. It's a not complicated argument.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:10:57 -0800 The Stranger Posted by NateMan]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:01:38 -0800 The Stranger Posted by NateMan]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 12:56:43 -0800 The Stranger
I don't give much of a fuck if someone uses a gun strictly for suicide only.

It's cases like Max pointed out above-the neverending stream of murder/suicides via guns that need to be curtailed. Cases that are rooted in passion, anger, and too-easy access to guns, especially handguns. Cases where the victims stand no chance (armed or not).
Posted by Dr_Awesome]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 12:55:41 -0800 The Stranger
So, for now your focus on guns is that deaths caused by them is qualitatively worse than deaths by other things. Check. While I'm sure that's a comfort to the families of those killed by guns, I'm not sure how the significantly larger percentage of families who lost loved ones due to other means will feel about it.

Look, I have never once argued that gun safety cannot and should not be improved upon. I don't think I've heard anyone hear argue that. And the NRA are fucking tools, and always have been. But both sides - though, clearly, I think yours is worse - get so caught up in self-righteousness it becomes quite easy to think that you don't actually give a single shit about what happens to who. You're just frightened of guns. And considering how few people they actually do kill against their actual numbers and how many people have them, that's a little sad.

You're outraged people can kill themselves with guns instead of being pissed people are killing themselves. Trust me when I tell you that when someone you know kills themselves, you couldn't care less how they did it. And you're pissed people are killing other people with guns, instead of being pissed people are killing people AT ALL. Or at the very least that's how you come off on it.

Posted by NateMan]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 12:51:46 -0800 The Stranger Yeah, you and others have the right to voice your opinions on guns... as do I. I never suggested anyone couldn't.

To suggest that we should ban "whatever single shot bolt action .22 and air softs are" as @10 said, is ignorance. An airsoft gun is used for games. It's not lethal. @10 just blathered out an emotional response without knowing what he/she was talking about.

If that had been someone who actually had power, that'd be irresponsible and dangerous.

If you don't believe that, read up on the history of the war on drugs. A war started and perpetuated by people who didn't know what they were talking about.
Posted by Urgutha Forka]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 12:47:43 -0800 The Stranger