http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=15995563 Comments On: Savage Love by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Sat, 18 May 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Sat, 18 May 2013 00:45:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Posted by mikraas]]> Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:27:14 -0800 The Stranger When a child reaches a certain age you have a door open policy. Teens can get up to more trouble than experimental sex behind closed doors.
Posted by crazymonkey]]> Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:47:50 -0800 The Stranger Posted by vennominon]]> Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:37:46 -0800 The Stranger Posted by strangeway]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 21:23:40 -0800 The Stranger Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:24:08 -0800 The Stranger @204: No real secret---I just have to watch my blood sugar like the plague.
Until last month, I was a walking industrial size can of Hershey's syrup!
My ND is still in the hospital, so I'm nervous about sticking my neck out too far until I hear from her. I'm still watching my carbohydrate intake as well as avoiding gluten and sugar.
@205 vennominon: Thanks! It's comforting to know that I'm not alone.
I wonder if my body will ever be able to tolerate gluten-free cupcakes...?
@206 nocutename: Thanks! I doubt I'll ever again have a bikini body, but at least I'm healthy.
Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:22:07 -0800 The Stranger @204: No real secret---I just have to watch my blood sugar like the plague.
Until last month, I was a walking industrial size can of Hershey's syrup!
My ND is still in the hospital, so I'm nervous about sticking my neck out too far until I hear from her. I'm still watching my carbohydrate intake as well as avoiding gluten and sugar.
@205 vennominon: Thanks! It's comforting to know that I'm not alone.
I wonder if my body will ever be able to tolerate gluten-free cupcakes...?
@206 nocutename: Thanks! I doubt I'll ever again have a bikini body, but at least I'm healthy.

Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:21:47 -0800 The Stranger
And, there's the rub.

Here, the father clearly articulates his TRUE view of his son being gay.

That it is something to be ashamed of.

It is prideful to be heterosexual, and shameful to be gay.

Here's a thought, Dud/Dad, maybe take your son to a straight pride parade and see if he's any prouder of himself.

Sorry Dud, but TOTAL BARF. In your attempt to appear progressive, you've really only revealed how you truly feel about having a gay son.

I feel a bit sorry for him.
Posted by Bill432]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:10:41 -0800 The Stranger
And, there's the rub.

Here, the father clearly articulate his TRUE view of his son being gay.

That is is something to be ashamed of.

It is prideful to be heterosexual, and shameful to be gay.

Here's a thought, Dud/Dad, maybe take your son to a straight pride parade and see if he's any prouder of himself.

Sorry Dud, but TOTAL BARF. In your attempt to appear progressive, you've really only revealed how you truly feel about having a gay son.

I feel a bit sorry for him.
Posted by BillJ]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:09:03 -0800 The Stranger
My apologies if I've confused you with someone else. I'm not going to look up chapter and verse now, but I definitely inferred about two posts ago that you were among the straight-hopers.

Clever implication, by the way, for which I bear you no malice, although I deny it. I hope you register and that some time soon we are arguing on the same side.
Posted by vennominon]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:28:56 -0800 The Stranger
Completely mystified why you would even think that.

All I ever meant to say is, in my life, intent matters. My parents aren't perfect, and they struggled more than a bit with the loss of the daughter they thought they had, but I managed not to be broken beyond repair by it, largely because I understood they were doing their loving best. Clearly, your experience was different. At this point, we're simply talking past each other, so I will retire from the field.
Posted by strangeway]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 07:45:36 -0800 The Stranger Posted by nocutename]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 07:07:13 -0800 The Stranger Posted by vennominon]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 05:07:19 -0800 The Stranger Posted by avast2006]]> Tue, 19 Feb 2013 00:39:44 -0800 The Stranger
@auntie - glad you're doing well.

Posted by EricaP]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 20:28:51 -0800 The Stranger The "SuperSize Me" guy was right: McDonald's can kill you!
If I only knew then what I know now......
I guess the main thing is what I'm learning and am doing something about.
One day, though, I shall be wildly seduced again by chocolate!! HA HA!!!
Posted by auntie grizelda]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 18:46:31 -0800 The Stranger
I think, of the various option listed, Dismissed comes very near the mark. It's so tempting to rewrite feelings, especially after some decades.

One thing you illustrate so distinctly is that this is really a Process. I shouldn't like to bet either way, but could make a case that DUD appears to think that the Sex Talk was an Event.

Actually, I can say one thing it felt like. There's a novel called *The Youngest Director* in which the Chairman of the Colorado Trading Corporation decides to act on the results of a study that he interprets as showing that married executives are happier than unmarried executives, and happy executives are better workers. He therefore orders the only unmarried Director (who was, of course, closeted) in the company to report to the Chairman's secretary with his marriage lines within six months. I recall how familiar that passage felt when I read it.
Posted by vennominon]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:48:09 -0800 The Stranger
We aren't necessarily contradicting each other. If I understand you correctly, your point is that DUD's Magic Intent means that, even if he gives his son completely the wrong sex talk, his being a loving and supportive parent means that the boy will not come away from the talk feeling alienated because Intent Trumps Execution every time.

What I will grant is that, IF DUD fils appreciates and understands the fullness and depth of DUD's supportive position (perhaps iffy when dealing with teens), then that increases the likelihood that a glaring omission in The Talk might lead to a question from DUD fils and a clarification that might avoid the arm.

My whole point was not so much to assume harm was done, but to say that, IF the harm was done, the Magic Intent doesn't make it less harmful.

I don't go in for there being correct ways to feel. If DUD desperately wants wants WANTS a straight son, that's what he feels. Those feelings will just make it harder for him to be as supportive as he claims he wants and intends to be, unless he finds some way to cope with them. Now, he might do some good work and find that his feelings change. But I'd never tell him to change his feelings as the starting point.

Magic Intent often reminds me of Choice Feminism. I recall a recent thread elsewhere about marriage customs, and how a number of posters said they would dump a man they'd otherwise wanted to marry if he asked their father's permission. One woman then got quite huffy, because her husband HAD asked her father's permission with her approval because it was a custom that meant so much to Daddy and the family wouldn't welcome him in if he didn't go out of his comfort zone and blah blah fishcakes. (It was a whiny post.) She was reassured that she wouldn't lose her membership card, but the general consensus was that, even though Nobody Does Feminism Perfectly and even if their choice was the best among those available, going through with the Permission Ask with their fingers crossed behind their backs didn't make it a Feminist Act.
Posted by vennominon]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:32:24 -0800 The Stranger Posted by nocutename]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 15:18:20 -0800 The Stranger
By assuming your daughter was straight, you have perpetuated the savage brutality against gays in this highly dysfunctional society.

Posted by Hunter78]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 14:46:54 -0800 The Stranger
Posted by Hunter78]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 14:39:43 -0800 The Stranger
I'm just not a fan of the Intent Is Not Magic meme. I have a loving family that does their imperfect best to understand me (as, indeed, I do my imperfect best to understand them)...and a bunch of not-quite-friends in the trans community who constantly repeat "Intent is not fucking magic!" when my family makes some minor mistake out of ignorance. I fail to see how being furious at my family for not being perfect enough is going to improve anything in anybody's life, but that seems to be how my acquaintances expect me to feel.

And, as the original Intent Isn't Fucking Magic post was a response to a post by another trans in a similar family situation to my own, it really bothers me how it's gone from, "This is MY opinion on your life" to "Everybody knows THIS is the proper way to feel". Sometimes intent isn't magic. Sometimes it is. It depends on the people involved in the situation, and what the situation specifically is, and whether there's harm. In the absence of evidence, you choose to assume there is harm; I choose to assume there is not.
Posted by strangeway]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 12:17:19 -0800 The Stranger
Thank you so much for sharing that an in so much detail. :)
Posted by mydriasis]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:14:27 -0800 The Stranger
Before I had children, I had an ideal form of the "sex talk" in my head, but once I was actually a parent, I discovered that
1) there is no 1 sex talk, but several, and they unfold over the years.
2) they never, ever go the way you think they were going to go: kids tend to introduce them (by questions asked), so you are almost always unprepared and taken aback, and need to come up with something on the spot that answers the question(s) without necessarily giving more information than they need to know at the time, if they are very young. And then adding in something else you might want them to know, in a way that is age-appropriate.

For many years, when my daughters were young, it was impossible for me to go to the bathroom without an audience, so my girls saw tampons. I explained, again in age-appropriate ways, about periods and not being pregnant, long, long (I mean years) before we started having the "what is going to happen to your changing body soon" talk. So for the purposes of this long, long post, I'm addressing less puberty changes than interpersonal sexual relations issues.

As they get older, the talks change, but other than leaving a book around or giving one to your kids (for girls, I recommend the now slightly old "Deal With It! A Whole New Approach to Your Body, Brain and Life as a GUrl," by Drill, McDonald, and Odes, given to a girl at around age 11 or 12), the talks are almost always instigated by the kid herself, and frequently catch you by surprise. Unless, of course, you find/see/hear about something you need to address (i.e. porn on the internet, condoms in the washing machine, etc.)--found without, for the purpose of this comment, undue snooping.

So for instance, the first talk I gave, to a very young child, was the "how are babies made" talk, which focused on gestation and egg fertilization. I didn't mention how the sperm from the daddy fertilized mommy's egg, and she didn't ask (she was about 3-and-a-half). The next "sex" talk, which was really a relationship talk, happened a few months later, when she asked her best friend (another girl) to marry her. The friend quasi-rejected her with the statement, "girls marry boys" (ultra-ironically, that girl is now in a relationship with another girl--she seems to be bi--and my daughter is straight). This crushed my little girl and she asked me why girls married only boys. So I said, "Usually women fell in love with men and wanted to be a family with a man (which was how I described marriage or committed relationships), but some women fell in love with other women and wanted to be a family with a woman, and some men fell in love with men and wanted to be a family with a man. Her almost-four-year-old self accepted this, and she happily got engaged to another girl.

For a while, I referred to the gay couples she knew, such as neighbors, teachers, and some adult cousins, as married to each other, but when she was almost 6, and excited to hear that her beloved kindergarten teacher was going to "marry" her partner (marriage not being legal in California, the two had a commitment ceremony), I took the opportunity to say, "actually, they're not getting really married, because the government says that they can't get married, because they are both women. Do you think that's fair?" She was outraged (children have a highly developed sense of injustice). I said, "what if the government said, Oh, J-- can't get married to T-- because they're too much alike: they both have blue eyes, they're both Jewish, they're both girls? Would that be right?" She got angry--and my lessons in the name of equality rights began.

Several years later, walking home from school one day when she was in the 4th grade (so 9 years old), she brought up some disturbing graffiti she saw on the school climbing structure ("Suck my dick"). I first had to check that she knew the slang term "dick," and she did. I next asked what she thought/knew about the content of the graffiti and sure enough, she had a misconception: she told me that when a man was married to a woman and they didn't want her to get pregnant, he would pee into her mouth. So I had several pieces of information to correct, and I found myself plunged into a talk about several things I wasn't prepared to say to a 9-year-old:

First I had to explain erections and ejaculation; that what came out of a penis under sexual conditions wasn't pee but semen, which contained that magical egg-fertilizing sperm. Then I decided to go a bit further, and said that while having oral sex might be a couple's way of making sure that the woman didn't get pregnant, it was also something that men and women did because it felt good for the man and that it was a way for grownups who were in love to have a kind of fun. This was the first time I divorced the idea of sex from its strictly reproductive aspect. She was fascinated and somewhat appalled. But then I thought I needed to help her become a non heteronormative person, so I said, "you know that some men fall in love with other men, right? So it's not just men and women who do this. Men who are in love with other men do this too, not to prevent a pregnancy, because there's no egg to fertilize or not fertilize, but just because it feels good and it's something special that they can do together because when you're in love and a grownup, you want to do things to make the other person feel good in a special way." She had no issues with the gay aspect of oral sex (we didn't discuss cunnilingus that day, or I think, ever!)

She mulled all this over for a bit (thank goodness it was a long walk home!) and then asked me if I had ever done that (fellatio) and I said yes. Then she asked me a specific question about my own sexual experience, like "when" or "how often," and I said, "I will always answer any question you ever have about sex as honestly as possible, but I don't want to talk about my own sex life. Do you understand?" And she said yes, she got it.

Several years later (she was about 11 or 12, I think), she told me that the idea of having sex still grossed her out. I assured her that that was perfectly normal, that that response meant she was way, way too young to be having sex, and that when she was old enough to have it, it wouldn't seem gross anymore. Then, as she got older, I waited for her to bring up the topic and when she was 13, I responded to a question by introducing the topic that there were more considerations than just pregnancy or disease avoidance to consider when making decisions about sex. I told her that having sex nearly always introduced big feelings and emotional responses that many people weren't ready for when they were young, that it could put you in deep emotional waters, that it nearly always changed the essential nature of a relationship in ways that most young people weren't really ready for, and that I thought it wasn't a good idea for young teens. I don't know whether or not she took my words/thoughts into consideration. I think her lack of sexual experience may have simply been in response to not thinking any boys were worth it. Or she may have been uninterested still. My current 13-year-old, is fascinated by sex but also disgusted by the thought of it, and she has the simultaneous desire to stay a kid and to grow up. But she's also very anxious by nature, and fearful of engaging in any activity she considers risky in any way.

As years went by, we had more sex talks, always initiated by questions, (there were a lot of questions after she glanced through the books I gave her when she was 11-12 and of course, as she got closer to puberty, I discussed the changes her body was going to go through), and in every one, I tried to make sure that she would feel included in the talk, regardless of what her sexual orientation turned out to be when it was revealed. I also always wanted to instill a sense of non-judgment and acceptance for others. But I must say, that I always started with the presumption that she was straight, if only because the majority of the population is and because she seemed to conform to stereotypes of "typical" femininity. I hoped that if she wasn't straight, she would realize that she could correct my impression and I wouldn't have an issue with it.


Posted by nocutename]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:45:07 -0800 The Stranger
Ideally? Within reason. I don't know that there's any possible One Size Fits All [reference omitted to Chuck Woollery's tenure as host of Scrabble].

Now I shall make a great effort not to spend the rest of the morning wondering whether ideally sexual orientation would be the only marker determining skin colour.
Posted by vennominon]]> Mon, 18 Feb 2013 05:52:43 -0800 The Stranger