http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/02/26/sl-letter-of-the-day-flirting-vs-negotiating Comments On: SL Letter of the Day: Flirting vs. Negotiating by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Thu, 23 May 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Thu, 23 May 2013 19:30:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss When you take a break , go and click some advertises and make some tasks, i use clixsens for 1 hour a day, and I earn about 100 dolars in first week.After you create an acount , invite some friends to join this.you will earn comission from their earnings.
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Posted by Christian87]]> Thu, 28 Mar 2013 05:37:37 -0700 The Stranger
I dont know, how about the people being accused of rape apology cause the letter writer wanst clear on whether or not she actually said no in real terms, and made it clear it was a real no and not a fantasy no.

Does she need to explain? Yes, but only in so far as to make him understand it is a hard line boundary and beyond that is her choice.

If she continues to explore submissiveness many prospective partners are going to suggest the possibility of the unknown lover.

And if this is going to be a constant problem, perhaps she should set up that boundary before the flirting even starts
Posted by lujlp]]> Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:26:35 -0700 The Stranger
As a side note re: why...
I don't think she has to explain why she doesn't like something, if she doesn't want to. That you don't like it is the important thing. That being said, context can be one (of several) handy and quick ways to get a hard-limit sorted out fairly quickly. So, SUBS, you may find mentioning your background a useful technique when you're at the negotiating stage, if it hasn't come up before. Good luck!
Posted by Luluisme]]> Mon, 04 Mar 2013 09:44:58 -0800 The Stranger
This is not for the purpose of labeling him an asshole or a potential rapist, nor to imply that him bringing it up indicates that he intends to force you to do things that violate your boundaries (all failures on my part that will doubtless piss off #29), but simply to note that perhaps D/s fundamentally isn't your thing, especially based on your history.

You weren't wrong to explore it with him, and he wasn't wrong to bring it up in the first place (if that's how it in fact happened), but you might want to think about what the concept of surrendering control means to you, if it means anything. What would be an okay way, in your mind, to submit to him, if the one he just mentioned freaks you out? (Doing his dishes, maybe?) I'm not saying you have to come up with one. I get the impression that the answer for you might be, "Actually, nothing, come to think of it." And that's fine.

Posted by avast2006]]> Fri, 01 Mar 2013 12:03:52 -0800 The Stranger
Nothing!

You don't owe him an explanation or even a goodbye. This is the virtual equivalent of walking out of the room when someone goes beyond your limits. That is effective communication all by itself, no follow-up chat required.

What stands out for me in your letter (because I'm a woman, and Dan is not) is that *your gut feeling here* is that he seems likely to make you do something you don't want to do. It may not be a legitimate threat, sure. It may be a clumsy error on his part. BUT WHO FUCKING CARES, when you consider also that we live in a world where women are raped every day, right? (Jesus, Dan. Way to overlook women's reality there.) Really - what good does it do *you* to presume that it some clumsy move on his part and not an actual threat, when your guts are screaming at you? I really don't see any reason why this *relatively small possibility* is the primary basis for Dan's reply. He might not be a rapist (yet), but what do you gain by assuming that, compared with what you stand to lose? Women are raped, often, and without justice ever being served, this is the world we live in - and it's supported by exactly the attitude in this column and in a lot of the comments.

Ironically, the same commenters would probably pull similarly apologetic-to-rapsits garbage out if you did meet this bozo - even to give him the chance to explain himself. 'Well, she should have known! Geez! What kind of rube meets a guy from the internet who sounds threatening?' Right.

So? Ignore these ignorant fuckers who insist (in some fashion or another) that you should talk this through, or give him some chance to explain himself, or what.ever.the.fuck. You owe him nothing, and your guts have important information for you. Listen to your guts, they have a lot more stake in this than anyone else yammering here, jesus h.
Posted by happyhedonist]]> Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:41:04 -0800 The Stranger
If even pretending/simulating the scenario is beyond the pale for you, that's entirely fine. I'm just suggesting that there may have been a miscommunication, rather than an actual intent to push you into something you really weren't happy with because doms get to make subs do whatever they want. Again, something to be hashed out in a safeword-on/flirt-free discussion.
Posted by avast2006]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:21:04 -0800 The Stranger
"I understand that pushing boundaries is part of the game, but this particular thing does not feel like a game, it makes me panicked and nauseated. If you try and push in that direction, it will make me feel that I can't trust you, and that will destroy the relationship. Are you perfectly clear on what that means in terms of consequences?"

You can explain your history here if you want, but it is totally optional -- not a requirement for you to have been molested in order to justify molestation scenarios being unacceptable to you. All that matters are your boundaries and the requirement that he honor them.
Posted by avast2006]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:00:19 -0800 The Stranger
If people are inexperienced, or just kind of awkward, I can see a lot of possibilities for confusion during that threat-flirt thing. Did the letter writer say "no", which might be interpreted in context as "oh, god, yes, yes, yes" or did she say "no, really no. not hot. no", which even an inexperienced Dom would probably figure out means "no"?

SUBS doesn't have any obligation to say why she isn't into it, doesn't need any trauma to back up her disinterest, but she does have an obligation to be clear.

When she then writes "How do people navigate through power dynamics in D/s relationships? Is the submissive really not supposed to set limits and actually do everything the Dominant wants even if she feels like its traumatizing?", I assume either she isn't likely to be being clear, or that this guy is a Grade A Manipulative Asshole if he's the one pushing the idea of subs not being able to set limits.
Posted by Gus]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:01:38 -0800 The Stranger Posted by pzzz]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:40:02 -0800 The Stranger Posted by EricaP]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:22:01 -0800 The Stranger
"I'm not into blindfolding/clowns/adult baby play" should not be a statement that you have to defend and justify.


Posted by IPJ]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:54:49 -0800 The Stranger
Millar:

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/201…

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/201…

Asher Bauer:

http://kinkylittlegirl.wordpress.com/201…

Clarisse:

http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2010/06/14…

http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2010/07/03…

http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/12/09…

My two cents? You never have to explain "why" you have preferences or boundaries to your partner. They are YOURS; you don't have to justify them to anyone if you don't feel comfortable.
Posted by feliquid]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:20:24 -0800 The Stranger
Some people get turned out by exploring things that feel dangerous to them. People with trust issues in particular can find it exciting to play around with those issues. In fact, many subs would be frustrated by a dom who stayed well within the sub's soft limits.

That said, it's hard to build any kind of trust long-distance. Also, SUBS should be encouraged to think about and spell out her hard and soft limits, and any specific triggers she has identified. For instance: "intercourse with other people is a hard limit; thinking I'm being left alone is a soft limit (one I'm willing to explore), and blindfolds give me panic attacks."

Posted by EricaP]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:58:02 -0800 The Stranger
She doesn't need to have a "why" and she certain't doesn't need to "explain to him why." She does not have to justify herself. I hope what you meant was: "But did she explain to him -that- this was a no-go for her?"

Posted by MiscKitty]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:54:28 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Actionsquid]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 08:57:10 -0800 The Stranger
Or he did and decided to push her to a breaking point.
Posted by undead ayn rand]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 08:47:20 -0800 The Stranger
Probably. Irrespective of whatever the referent of 'this' is, the answer to that question is always 'Probably.' At least 'Probably'.
Posted by Ben]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 08:38:25 -0800 The Stranger Posted by smajor82]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 06:27:36 -0800 The Stranger It does not matter WHY she doesn't like it/ WHY she panicks. The only thing that she has to communicate clearly to the Dom is the fact THAT she doesn't like it/ panicks.
Or do you want to say that only people who have already been traumatised have the right not to be traumatised?

I agree with IPJ @1 and Mr. Ven @ 11.
Posted by migrationist]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 03:22:30 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Reallyneedtosignup]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:47:22 -0800 The Stranger
Safe, sane, consensual vs. Risk-aware consensual kink.

Learn the difference. Read up on it. There's a whole world out there, just waiting to be discovered.
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:04:40 -0800 The Stranger
But did she explain to him why this was a no-go for her?

Does she understand the Safe Word concept applies to online sexy chat too? Or just the notion of telling him "WHOA. Time out. We're not in sexy time talk anymore. You've hit a big-time trigger for me, and we're in no-go territory. If you tried this shit on me in real life, and didn't respect my Safe Word, you'd be an absolute abusive asshole fuckface. I want to be totally clear that healthy Dom/sub for me includes you respecting the hell out of my no-goes. And this is one. Got it?"

You gotta communicate clearly, letter writer. This dude may have just been springing ideas on you, to feel out your boundaries, your likes, your dislikes. That's called 'getting to know each other' in sexy-chat or in real life. Getting a Big Sad without clearly communicating to him is unfair to him. He may well be an asshole, but you can't be sure until you give him a Big Dose of Righteous Truth and Fury, including setting limits and rules and Safe Words, and see how he responds.

Posted by Functional Atheist]]> Tue, 26 Feb 2013 22:49:11 -0800 The Stranger Posted by vennominon]]> Tue, 26 Feb 2013 22:36:57 -0800 The Stranger I half-jokingly tell pretty much everyone I would like to fuck that, "I don't flirt, I interview." I've have nonconsentual experiences, and so when I feel the need to set a hard limit, I do, even if that's totally not the tone of what we're talking about, even if a second ago we were flirting playfully, even if I'm supposed to be the submissive. Sex is fun and pleasure is good for you etc, but sex is also a serious exercise in trust and responsibility. Never be afraid to turn something into a serious discussion if you feel the situation warrants it, particularly because this doesn't sound like something you're just not that into, this is something that actively traumatizes you when you think about it happening to you. .

It helps if you verbally delineate, as in, "For real though..." "I'm serious about this..." "This is cool to talk about but in real life..." "I'm uncomfortable even talking about..." etc, so your potential partner understands that although you may be laughing and smiling and in the middle of a hot flirt, you're talking real limits. Your potential partners can't guess your limits or triggers, so they've got a right to be told directly and honestly. And then reinforce it during the negotiations you will do before a real scene. There will be people, in my experience particularly tops with whom I am not compatible, who will be really turned off by this direct approach and not want to play with you. That's okay. If you communicate a limit or a trigger and they don't respond with the utmost respect, be completely unforgiving. Walk away and never look back. It feels really good, especially after you meet some people (and you will) who treat you the way your deserve to be treated.

My approach to dating and relationships doesn't work for everyone and not everyone would WANT to conduct themselves like I do, but I'm healthy, happy, and I've got more lovers, partners, and fuckbuddies - who I respect and trust and who trust and respect me - than I can shake a stick at.

I'm also going to second therapy/continued therapy. Not because you're broken but because it can help to have a professional to talk to, someone who is obligated protect your privacy and be nonjudgmental. Seek a sex-positive/kink-friendly therapist, if you haven't got one already.

Final note: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TELL HIM WHY YOU'RE UNCOMFORTABLE/FREAKED OUT. Past sexual trauma can be a really important thing to hash out in a serious relationship (however you define that), but you don't have to disclose, or hint at, anything you don't want to. No means no, because it makes you uncomfortable and you said so. There's nothing more complex to it that you need to share unless you want to.
Posted by eyecontact]]> Tue, 26 Feb 2013 22:10:31 -0800 The Stranger Posted by fsb]]> Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:41:52 -0800 The Stranger