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November 30, 2011

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I'm a 21-year-old woman from Canada who sleeps with other women. Two questions for you:

1. My LGBT friends and I disagree about what we girls who sleep with girls exclusively should call ourselves. Everyone else prefers "lesbian" and bitches at me for hating that word. Can't I call myself gay?

2. I am a really kinky person: I've been very sexually active and into BDSM since I was 16. I have a large toy collection and many of the toys are dildos and anal plugs. I like anal a lot, but the thought of vaginal just doesn't interest me, so I've never gone there. I've read about how breaking the hymen can hurt and—despite the fact that I enjoy being flogged and scratched—that scares me a little. Should I get over it and go to town or stick with everything else that works for me?

Good Gay Girl

1. You can call yourself whatever you like, GGG, and your friends can call themselves whatever they like. They're entitled to their opinions, however, along with their preferred labels. Friends should be able to discuss their differing opinions and preferences without bitching and/or being so thin-skinned that a calm discussion about a sensitive subject is mistaken for bitching.

2. "Tearing the hymen doesn't always hurt and rarely hurts with any severity," says Debby Herbenick, sex researcher, vulva puppeteer, and coauthor (with Vanessa Schick) of Read My Lips: A Complete Guide to the Vagina and Vulva. "Going slow with a smallish, well-lubricated dildo is a good place to start, or two or three well-lubricated fingers. Doing this while highly aroused sets you up for a better experience."

But before you explore vaginal penetration, GGG, Herbenick recommends a trip to your nearest female-friendly sex-toy shop.

"If most of your toys have been used in the anus/rectum," says Herbenick, "it would be wise to get a new vagina toy."

And if you're broke?

"Then put a condom over a clean anal toy or clean a nonporous (glass, medical-grade silicone) anal toy before using it in the sensitive vagina," says Herbenick.

While most women enjoy vaginal penetration, GGG, not all women do. (And most women who enjoy vaginal penetration require additional, focused, and intense stimulation of the clit in order to get off.) If you decide vaginal penetration isn't for you, that's also a preference to which you're entitled.

I was chatting with a guy, and he mentioned that one time this girl accidentally vomited all over him during oral sex. He confessed that this turned him on. I consider myself GGG, but that is not something I'm game for. The thought of puking in a sexual scenario is completely unappealing. Does my refusal to do this revoke my GGG card? Or is this so out of the norm that I can refuse without losing my GGG card?

Pleasing Upchucking = Kinky Extremism?

Let's revisit my original definition of GGG: "GGG stands for good, giving, and game, which is what we should all strive to be for our sex partners. Think good in bed, giving equal time and equal pleasure, and game for anything—within reason."

Some kinksters skip past the "within reason" part of the definition when they're discussing kinks with vanilla partners. They shouldn't. Extreme bondage or SM, shit and puke, emotionally tricky humiliation play, demanding that your partner have sex with other people because it turns you on (asking your partner to assume all of the physical risks that go along with that, to say nothing of the emotional risks for a partner who isn't interested in having sex with other people), etc.—all of that falls under the FTF exclusion, or a "fetish too far," which you'll find in the fine print on the back of your GGG card, PUKE.

I'm a 20-year-old female college student living with my 23-year-old boyfriend. We've been dating for two years, and our sex life has always been awesome. My boyfriend has a high libido, so high that I can't always get him off when he wants it. He says I don't want to have sex with him, when we have sex probably four times a week and I'm totally happy to give him head, jerk him off, or take off my clothes for him any other time he asks. Whenever we sit down together, he's immediately horny and he gets cranky when I have to say no. Is this a ridiculously high libido? I try to be GGG, and he does the same for me, but I hate feeling guilty about not having sex with him constantly. I've started just telling him to masturbate to porn, and he does it willingly but usually whines a little first about how I "never" want to have sex. Totally false! My body just can't take it every day. What do I do?

My Boyfriend Is Incredibly Horny

At two years, your boyfriend is getting vaginal intercourse four times a week, MBIIH, along with handjobs, blowjobs, and you standing there naked whenever he likes? Plus a cheerful okay to watch porn and jerk it whenever he feels the need?

You're not trying to be GGG, MBIIH, you are GGG.

Your boyfriend doesn't realize how good he's got it. He isn't lacking for sex; what he lacks is perspective. He clearly doesn't understand or appreciate what it's like to be on the receiving end of all that dick. Saying something like this might help him understand: "You know I love you, honey, and you know I love having sex with you. But if your hole got fucked every time we had 'sex,' you wouldn't want to have 'sex' more than four times a week, either." (I'm putting "sex" in quotes here because your boyfriend defines sex as "vaginal intercourse." I do not. Oral, handjobs, and visuals-with-a-partner—all of that counts as sex.)

If that doesn't do the trick, MBIIH, buy your boyfriend a dildo that's roughly the same size as his dick. Then tell him he can fuck your hole whenever he wants, for as long as he wants—so long as he fucks his own hole first, while you watch, for at least 20 minutes or so. Then he can fuck yours.

That might help him appreciate how good he's got it.

Never heard of you until a year ago.

I'm into "ball busting"—getting slapped or kicked in the nuts—but my wife was never willing. I did something stupid and saw an escort, just to get my balls busted (no sex), and my wife found out. She was talking about divorce when she told her best friend what was going on. Her friend told her to read your archives first.

You probably don't hear this from conservative Christian Republicans in red states very often, Mr. Savage, but my sense of honor requires it of me: Thank you for saving my marriage. This "GGG" concept of yours transformed our marriage—it also led my wife to either discover or open up about her kink—and we are happier than ever. It isn't lost on me that I have a gay man to thank for keeping us from becoming another sad divorce statistic.

Busted And Loving Life Supremely

You're welcome, BALLS, and all I ask in return for saving your marriage—besides video—is your support for the full legal recognition of mine. Deal?


Comments (306) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
Love the answer to BALLS, Dan. A little quid pro quo would be nice, yeah?
Posted by clashfan on November 29, 2011 at 5:31 PM · Report this
Way to go Dan! You were right on with all of your responses. A lady may absolutely draw the line at puke and getting fucked 4X/week for 2 years, if she wishes. She also has the right to have her wishes respected. With regards to BALLS ... I wish more onservative Christian Republicans read your column!
Posted by jgirl63 on November 29, 2011 at 5:34 PM · Report this
Hi Dan Savage,

How are you? I do hope that you could answer my question. I am a gay man living in Mississauga, ON. Recently I met a french guy and we ended up in having a "fuck buddy" relationship. This french man is currently in a relationship and I am slowly falling in love with him. To get worse he is about to move to Toronto with his partner as he told me that he is currently looking for apartment in Toronto. I am so conflicted, should I tell this french guy how I feel about him even though I know he would not leave his partner? Pls help!!!

"Head over heels" (HOH)
Posted by carpediemjc on November 29, 2011 at 5:35 PM · Report this
I can relate to the lesbian who doesn't want to use that term to refer to herself. I have gay friends who are offended I don't use the "g" word self-referentially, but in my case I feel it carries a lot of baggage that doesnt apply just because Iike dudes. if her friends are like mine, they are hung up on the wording and unlikely to let her refer to herself however she wants. To just get along, she could use the "L" word occasionally around them.

Posted by WestSeven on November 29, 2011 at 5:41 PM · Report this
Right on Dan, on all responses.
A lady has every right to refuse puking on her partner, if she so desires, and to have a little more respect for being on the receiving end of cock 4X/week for two years.

As for BALLS, if only more conservative Christian Republicans read your column, they'd be less concerned about what their neighbors are doing in the sack and more focused on how they can make their own sack more fun!
Posted by jgirl63 on November 29, 2011 at 5:46 PM · Report this
This made me take a moment to appreciate that I don't have a more unusual fetish like wanting someone to vomit on me or whatever. Mainly b/c of the awkwardness of bringing it up, admitting it, having to work it into conversation, etc... ("Sooo, speaking of vomit and sex...). Not saying it judgey--just don't like extra work, I guess.

Posted by inbed on November 29, 2011 at 6:12 PM · Report this
Shoot, when I was 23, stupid me got married and then got sex once a month, which became less and less and less...
Posted by spoon on November 29, 2011 at 6:17 PM · Report this
Azul 8
I'd love to hear from BALLS here in the comment section (RE his support of gay marriage) -- even if his politics are different from mine, he sounds like a nice guy...
Posted by Azul on November 29, 2011 at 6:20 PM · Report this
It doesn't sound like PUKE is in a relationship with this guy. Even assuming they're fuck buddies, I think GGG doesn't apply -- it's for people with whom you're building a long term relationship. With casual lays, you just look for the overlap in interests, and if there's not enough of an overlap, then you find other partners.

On the specific question, if PUKE is a bit intrigued, they might play around with deep-throating to the point of gagging. I've had partners who enjoy that, and we haven't had any accidental puke incidents yet.
Posted by EricaP on November 29, 2011 at 6:37 PM · Report this
can we put the myth about hymens to rest, please?……
Posted by daisyankh on November 29, 2011 at 7:13 PM · Report this
Posted by daisyankh on November 29, 2011 at 7:17 PM · Report this
I don't care if Lesbians call themselves gay or Lesbian, but too many times I've heard Lesbians use the phrase "Lesbian woman", which driven me up the wall.

A Lesbian by definition is a woman; there is no such thing as a Lesbian man. The phrase Lesbian woman is redundant ladies, so please stop using it!
Posted by Gay Movie Fan on November 29, 2011 at 8:10 PM · Report this
Why should mbiis boyfriend be happy with a normal amount of sex? Since when is Dan standing up for settling for the norm? Shouldn't Dan have just been happy with vagina? Normal guys are happy with it.

If she's refusing to go past 4 times a week, I'd bet anything she's acting like numbers 3 and 4 are a heinous chore. So the boyfriend is only getting good sex twice a week.

As if it matters. Since this is clearly libido mismatch.

If the guy isn't happy with what's being offered, they need to find a solution beyond just accepting the norm. Even if that means partners better suited to their needs.
Posted by mage on November 29, 2011 at 8:27 PM · Report this
7 years into my relationship and once every 3 months would be lucky. I have thrown nearly full boxes of condoms out as they have expired.
Posted by jqpubic42 on November 29, 2011 at 8:27 PM · Report this
PUKE's male friend gets off on being thrown up on after oral sex?!? Um, like, ew. People do have their kinks, and she's obviously not in a relationship with this guy, but is it possible that he's just lying to get a reaction from her?

@9 EricaP: Good additional suggestions for PUKE!

@12 You can call me anything you want except late to dinner!

A+ again, on all responses, Dan! In addition to BALLS, all the best with your marriage, and Happy Holidays!
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 29, 2011 at 8:30 PM · Report this
Actually there are Lesbian men, a rare and elusive group, not defined as a guy who says he's a lesbian trapped in a man's body but a man whose lesbian friends all agree that he is a lesbian. Our boifriend is one, he dresses like a lesbian, he loves cats and all the same music, and of course lesbian women. We call him the dyke who can't take off her strap-on.
The rainbow has many more shades than you might realize.
Posted by friend of lesbian man on November 29, 2011 at 8:40 PM · Report this
@6 grrr... misspelled my own damn link. it was all the talk of vomit, i think, got me all distracted and junk.

if you're still interested, it's…
Posted by inbed on November 29, 2011 at 9:09 PM · Report this
echizen_kurage 18

So, let's assume that MBIIH is being honest about the amount of sex she's having with her boyfriend (PiV sex four times a week, plus unlimited blowjobs/handjobs/stripteases), and let's assume that all of this is joyfully given and she doesn't act like it's some sort of "heinous chore." (Yes, the "heinous chore" scenario is a real possibility, but I don't agree with you that it's obviously and irrefutably the case.) If MBIIH isn't misrepresenting herself and her situation, then her boyfriend would be un-fucking-believably lucky to get that much sex in any other relationship, especially after the getting-to-know-you fuck-frenzy dies down.

So, if MBIIH's boyfriend's only problem in this relationship is that he's not satisfied with vaginal intercourse four times a week, plus unlimited blowjobs/handjobs/stripteases, then you better fucking believe that he should settle. Holding out for exactly what you want without realistically assessing your options is just plain stupid. I mean, I could hold out for a job with a twenty hour work-week and a seven figure salary, but where would that get me?
Posted by echizen_kurage on November 29, 2011 at 9:10 PM · Report this
@13: I agree with only one statement from your post: that if the insanely horny boyfriend isn't happy with the sexual relationship he has with his girlfriend who's understandably pooped after 4 times a week, that he could seek out an equally insanely horny girlfriend.

However, If I had a boyfriend who insisted on vaginal intercourse morning, noon, and night, and whined like a baby if he couldn't fuck me wherever, whenever, I'd give him the same answer as Dan's, too, ya doofus!

Are you aware that Dan is gay? While he is equally supportive of women as well as men getting the GGG we all deserve, vaginal sex ISN'T his "norm"! That's like someone telling you that having gay sex is "the norm", and why aren't you happy with going to the bathhouses?
So--do you "normally" hang out in a whorehouse, an alcohol-induced frathouse, meat-market, Cattlemen's Club, or what?
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 29, 2011 at 9:11 PM · Report this
@12, re my post @15: I'm not a lesbian, but my point is that we all get labeled, and are prone to label others.
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 29, 2011 at 9:16 PM · Report this
I would like to suggest that one can refuse ANY request, even one not "a kink too far", and still be GGG. I think it should mean that we should accept people's kinks without judgment (although, of course, that does not mean that we have to accept people *acting* on those kinks without judgment when those actions involve others who do not consent or are not capable of consent), that we incorporate those kinks into our sex lives where possible, and that we don't refuse to try things without a very good reason. Now, ISTM that the standard for a good reason not to engage in puke play or shit play is pretty low--"that's gross", "that's unhealthy", whatever. The less far the kink, the higher the standard for good reason. But no one who feels really strongly about not doing something should feel that they can't refuse without being proclaimed un-GGG, if they're sincere about those reasons and they sincerely try to find ways to accommodate their partner's desires in other ways.

Just my two cents.
Posted by Brett Alan on November 29, 2011 at 10:11 PM · Report this
@13, 18, 19:

The boyfriend described in MBIIH sounds a lot like me. I can relate. I recognize that some women can't handle intercourse that often, but as someone who would be pretty miserable getting turned down for PIV the other 10+ times a week, I can attest that there are plenty of women who are willing, able, and eager to fuck more often than that.

I'm not sure why Dan thinks 4x a week is a massive amount of intercourse and the guy is lucky. If you're unhappy in a relationship, you feel deprived or there's a clear sex drive mismatch, it doesn't really matter if someone else thinks you have a lot of sex and are lucky, or if you have more PIV than the average (which I believe is 2-3x a week). The "norm" is irrelevant if you're unhappy.

Wanting PIV more than 4x a week is not the equivalent of wanting a million dollar/year salary. I would be unhappy with 4x a week PIV and I wouldn't willing to settle for a relationship that leaves me unsatisfied like that. Wanting PIV once or twice a day is not unreasonable at all.

If a woman's body can't handle that, it's unfortunate and understandable, and it's not her fault. But it can be a serious problem in a relationship, even if she's GGG the way the LW is. It's upsetting to see it dismissed as not that bad. This is a significant sexual incompatibility, it can cause problems, and people definitely have the right to end relationships over it and look for ones that satisfy them. Being single or having non-monogamous relationships can also be a possible solution: the boyfriend in the letter could see someone else the other three days of the week.

Linguistic note: while the word "sex" includes many different things, the phrase "to have sex" is more specific than that, and is often used to just refer to intercourse.
Posted by BlackRose on November 29, 2011 at 10:29 PM · Report this
venomlash 23
One thing to add for Good Gay Girl: tearing the hymen probably won't hurt, but there's a decent chance that you'll see a few drops of blood the first time you stick something up your hoo-ha. Just be aware of that so as to avoid staining anything.
Posted by venomlash on November 29, 2011 at 10:31 PM · Report this
@10 Searched "hymen" and checked out a few of the Psychology Today articles that came up since your link is messed up. One author said the bleeding/pain during a woman's first time couldn't possibly be because of the hymen, while the other author cautiously suggest it could be, but etc...

Neither denied the exsistence of the hymen.

And both were men...which was kinda weird (not saying they're weird, just expected more female input). Had to admit I was curious since I had the stereotypical pain and bleeding, while a lot of other girls I talked to got off easy. Eh, luck of the draw I guess.

Anyways...Good Luck GGG!
Posted by mygash on November 29, 2011 at 11:12 PM · Report this
The link is in 11 and it works. No one said the hymen didn't exist: the myth is that it's a freshness seal that pops and always bleeds the first time a woman has intercourse.
Posted by BlackRose on November 29, 2011 at 11:34 PM · Report this
BlackRose @22: I thought I'd said something like that, at least concerning how people unhappy in their relationships are deserving of partners (BF, GF, spouses, fuck-buddies, etc.) who will be lovingly open and supportive of fulfilling their sexual needs.

I never said that having vaginal intercourse et al. more than 4 times a week was unreasonable. The boyfriend of MBIIH sounds like he craves it 24/7.
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 29, 2011 at 11:43 PM · Report this
Neptune 27
@23 She probably doesn't even have to worry about that if she's ever used tampons. However, I think it's also worth noting that without enough lube, any woman could see blood afterward, regardless of experience. Unfortunately, I learned that the hard way, and once you have a tear, it is more likely to re-open each time.

To GGG, I would suggest also doing some reading about how to locate the g-spot based on texture/placement, and work on identifying it with a finger before attempting penetration for pleasure. The first time I ever tried to finger myself (the things I say on SLOG...), it was laughably bad. It didn't feel anywhere close to good, because I had no idea what I was doing. I also failed to stimulate my clit at all, so that didn't help! These days, I find nothing as intense as the two sensations combined. Just be patient with yourself, GGG.
Posted by Neptune on November 29, 2011 at 11:43 PM · Report this
Dan, who wrote:
all of that falls under the FTF exclusion, or a "fetish too far," which you'll find in the fine print on the back of your GGG card, PUKE.

All very well and right, but let's not forget the flipside: a person who disagrees or refuses to satisfy a sex partner's fetish also should not thikn less of said sex partner, or react according to stereotypes about 'the kind of person' who likes said fetishes, no matter how far they are. It may not be something for you, but it is something for you potential sex partner, and that deserves respect.

Posted by ankylosaur on November 29, 2011 at 11:47 PM · Report this
@BlackRose, who wrote:
If you're unhappy in a relationship, you feel deprived or there's a clear sex drive mismatch, it doesn't really matter if someone else thinks you have a lot of sex and are lucky, or if you have more PIV than the average (which I believe is 2-3x a week). The "norm" is irrelevant if you're unhappy.

I agree. The big problem is unhappiness: if you are unhappy with a relationship, then you are of course entitled to try to find a solution for it, including (a) adjusting yourself to the relationship ('it's better than nothing'), (b) negotiating the terms ('maybe we can satisfy each other better'), or (c) looking for a new relationship ('we aren't really compatible'). It's up to each individual to decide which path s/he wants to follow, and just pointing at normal and usual solutions in other relationships ('but 4x a week is enough for most people!') isn't going to change anything about the feelings of unhappiness in this one.

But I wonder if you also think there is such a thing as unreasonable demands (say, 'too much sex')? If not 4 times a week, would there be an amount that is reasonably 'too much', or is it the case that any amount is simply an individual feature, the real problem being simply the libido mismatch? (I tend in this direction, but I wondered what your opinion would be.)
Posted by ankylosaur on November 30, 2011 at 12:02 AM · Report this
@26: You said that if your BF wanted intercourse "morning, noon, and night" (i.e., 3 times a day), you'd give him the same answer as Dan's (which is "I don't care if you're unhappy; you're lucky to have what you have and you lack perspective.") I don't think that's a useful answer for the reasons ankylosaur said. But Echizen was the one who said it's unreasonable to demand PIV more than 4x/week.

@29: There are definitely unreasonable demands. For a demand to be unreasonable it has to be a problem even if both people are consenting to it; otherwise, it's just a mismatch. Examples of unreasonable demands would be "Don't ever leave this room or speak for the rest of your life," "Cut your arm off," and similar sorts of things we'd recognize as abuse as opposed to consensual BDSM.

But I don't think any demand about frequency of sex falls in this category.

On an off topic note, can I ask you about what you said in another thread about the D/s thing where you had to earn a kiss from someone? I'm interested in how someone could do that while dealing with the social baggage around it: the whole idea that men shouldn't be submissive or that it's pathetic or unattractive to have to earn sex.
Posted by BlackRose on November 30, 2011 at 1:04 AM · Report this
echizen_kurage 31

I should clarify: I think expecting PiV more than 4x per week (on top of unlimited blowjobs/handjobs/stripteases) is unreasonable, or at least verging on unreasonable, only in the purely practical sense. I certainly don't think it's ethically unreasonable (like it would be to expect somebody to cut their arm off or remain in silent isolation for the rest of their life); I simply think it's not likely to happen. Wanting the amount of sex MBIIH's partner supposedly wants seems like, oh, I don't know, wanting a great one-bedroom apartment in downtown Manhattan for $800 a month. I'm not saying it's an absolute impossibility, and I'm not saying it's wrong to dream about it; I'm just saying, good bloody luck finding it. (Based on your response, maybe I'm underestimating the odds of him finding what he's looking for, but I'm sure you get my point.)

Upon further reflection, I suppose that part of my non-sympathy for MBIIH's boyfriend has to do with the fact that I'm a total, unmitigated dyke, and therefore I don't prioritize PiV sex the way that he apparently does. It's difficult for me to imagine having unlimited access to oral and manual sex from somebody I found attractive and still being massively sexually unsatisfied, y'know?

On a side note, I can think of demands for frequency of sex that I would call unreasonable, hypothetically speaking. If someone expected sex every hour, on the hour, including hours when their partner was sleeping or working, that would pretty inevitably cause major problems in their partner's life, even if s/he were consenting.
Posted by echizen_kurage on November 30, 2011 at 1:45 AM · Report this
Personally, I think PIV sex takes less out of you than oral sex and hand jobs.

If I'm not in the mood, but he is, I'd prefer to lie on my back and get fucked.

Posted by Stephanie1444 on November 30, 2011 at 2:12 AM · Report this
stomach acid tingles when it covers your dick.

also, it's a great cure for jock-rot.
Posted by Doot on November 30, 2011 at 2:29 AM · Report this
Love your advice for PUKE!
I was in a similar situation once - an ex-boyfriend of mine had a fetish for women drinking lots of carbonated drinks (1,5 liters and more) before sex so he could feel and hear it "splashing around inside", and I was GGG about it. But after we overdid it one time and I threw up all over my breasts (a horrific experience for me, but he came seeing it), he wanted to do it that way every single time and couldn't understand why I never wanted to do it again.
Being GGG is one thing, doing things that freak you out just so your partner gets off is quite another.
Posted by BiGirlFromGermany on November 30, 2011 at 3:45 AM · Report this
@3 Tell him.

You're losing this relationship regardless (he's moving away) so you have nothing new to lose by telling him. If he can't or won't have any deeper feelings for you and you're in love with him then the relationship will bring you a lot of pain is it goes on. It will be better to know that now.

Yes, he might dump you. If he doesn't love you and never will and you're always going to be just a fuck buddy then that would probably be the most ethical thing for him to do. Then you can go find someone to fall in love with who can love you back. But maybe he's capable of being emotionally open as well as sexually open in his current relationship (assuming he's not a CPOS) and you could end up working out a long-distance poly arrangement.

Good luck
Posted by tal on November 30, 2011 at 4:14 AM · Report this
Here's what stands out for me in MBIH's letter. Nevermind the specific amounts of sex. Nevermind the specific sex acts whether it's PIV or blowjobs or whatever. This is a guy who gets cranky when he doesn't get what he wants, who uses all or nothing terms like "never" when he doesn't get what he wants (and it's clearly not the case), who uses emotionally manipulative phrases like "you don't want to" when he doesn't get what he wants, and has somehow turned the relationship into one where she feels guilty a lot for making the same point over and over.

In a mature relationship, they'd negotiate, come to an agreement, and stick to it. But she's stated her needs clearly. She's made reasonable accomodations to compromise, and he's acting like an immature, manipulative prick.

I want to ask her how they do with other disagreements because right now I'm ready to advise her to dump him already.
Posted by Crinoline on November 30, 2011 at 5:17 AM · Report this
GGG raises a question I've been curious about. What is it about the term lesbian? I don't like it either, but I can't figure out why. It has no bad associations for me, but I seem to be like a lot of people who hate the word
Posted by Crinoline on November 30, 2011 at 5:19 AM · Report this
Re: posts about "normal" & "norms"

There is a distinction between what is normal and what is typical.

People are not typically homosexual, but homosexuality is totes normal.

Posted by mizmojo on November 30, 2011 at 5:27 AM · Report this
geoz 39
I've met more than one woman who has dis-owned the term "lesbian." I wonder if our language is evolving at the grass roots level. One woman I know chose "woman loving woman" (yes, both singular).
Posted by geoz on November 30, 2011 at 6:42 AM · Report this
Some thoughts about Mr Balls:

* It is rather amusing - almost Biblical - that one of the "Enemy" (or at least "Despised") has done more for him than all the Defenders of Traditional Marriage put together.

* Why "my sense of honour requires it from me"? It sounds conscientious but a bit grudging. At least he seems willing to consider further efforts.

* I can do without the video, thanks. But if it's of interest to Mr Savage, well, that can just be filed away under Potentially Interesting Things to Know. Or was it a sort of courtesy request, like carding a mother after one has just carded her daughter?

* In the spirit of annoyance that same-sexers have to jump through all these hoops for decent treatment that ought not to have to be "earned", one wonders how many more OS marriages Mr Savage will have to save to produce any momentum. I have deleted a piece of speculation about what would have happened had Mrs Balls not abandoned the divorce.

* I'm guessing the request will prove a Deal Too Far, but, Mr Balls, if you're reading, please prove me wrong.

* And, should the request prove a Deal Doable, what form(s) of support can reasonably be requested that don't require giant steps that might plausibly be beyond him?
Posted by vennominon on November 30, 2011 at 6:45 AM · Report this
@36 Exactly. The idea that he whines about how she NEVER has sex with him is ridiculous. 4 times a week may not be enough, but it's certainly not "never".

@BlackRose: I definitely agree that saying someone wants too much sex is unfair. Everyone is different, and therefore the amount they want is unique to them. I believe in every relationship you have to weigh the satisfaction you have in each facet and determine if you're willing to lack in one because it's made up in another.

For example, I'm sure there are some people who are so emotionally satisfied that they're willing to overlook the fact that they aren't getting sex nearly as often as they'd like, and the opposite is also true. A friend of mine often says that she's willing to put up with a lot more bullshit from the person giving her regular orgasms than from anyone else.

Unfortunately, we don't know much about what the rest of the LW's relationship is like. I wish we could, because there are a lot more than physical reasons to not want sex more often. Personally, I consider sex to be much more important than my bf does. He considers it "icing on the cake" to the relationship, I consider it more an integral part. This means that I tend to want it more often than he does, however, there are still times where I'll decide against it if I'm feeling like we need to focus more on communication.

Also, because we work VERY opposite shifts, we only get to see each other a couple hours a day, and, try as we might, sex doesn't always manage to fit into those hours. Quickies are not an option for us, unfortunately, so unless we can dedicate the majority of the time we have to sex, we have to "settle" for just hanging out and hoping to get a moment another time. (Last night for example, we both ended up wanting sex, but he had to leave for work in 15 minutes, so we weren't able to act on it).

While I don't think it's fair for someone to withhold sex as a punishment, would you agree that if other parts of the relationship need worked on, they might need to be the focal point @ that moment?
Posted by KateRose on November 30, 2011 at 6:56 AM · Report this
havingbeensalted 42
Interesting to know that tearing the hymen 'rarely hurts with any severity.' Because it DID hurt, for me. SEVERELY. In a curl up in the fetal position kind of way. Glad to know I'm rare, because it SUCKED.

Also, @37--I hate the term 'lesbian', too, and I CAN explain why I hate it. Maybe something will resonate for you in my explanation.

What I dislike about the term lesbian is the inherent exoticism of it. I mean, it's an island in Greece. It's a group title based off of poetry which is incomplete and bisexual at best. It's orientalism. It's obfuscation. It's a pretty euphemism. Women don't screw other women, they write loooove poetry and siiiigh. It has just always struck me as, like, what they came up with in the victorian period as a modern equivalent to frat boys watching lesbian porn. It seems like it's not about the women, it's about the male eye on the women. You know? I'm not sure if I'm saying it well. It's early.
Posted by havingbeensalted on November 30, 2011 at 7:27 AM · Report this
On the subject of referential labels (gay, lesbian, etc) - for what it's worth, I'm a gay man who hates the word queer; in fact I find it much more offensive than the word faggot. Queer is what most folks (including adults) called me when I was growing up. I especially hate it when gay people use it (in an inverse-empowerment way) around me. It's mostly women who do it, and I usually call them a cunt and then I smile and say "Like how that felt?"
Posted by wayne on November 30, 2011 at 7:38 AM · Report this
AFinch 44
Hmm...I don't think PIV 4x a week is a lot but really, if that's what she's game for and she is helping him get off other ways, then mis-match or not, she's not being unreasonable in declining him. I'm thrilled my GF and I are at about 5x a week - some days none, and some days 2x - but I suspect she'd be up for twice daily. It's a new relationship, so we'll see how this endures.

The puking thing is clearly more than three standard deviations from the hetero-normative PIV norm and well into the territory of unusual kink. While it's not any grosser than, for example, fecal matter from anal (not terribly kinky), the demand on one partner is pretty extreme and perhaps very uncomfortable. In other words, it's a big request.
Posted by AFinch on November 30, 2011 at 7:39 AM · Report this
markvz 45
I don't mean to be judgmental, but there are some kinks that I just can't fathom. Getting punched in the balls hurts intensely. Up until now I've never even heard of any testicle owning human being that doesn't spare any measure to avoid it.
Posted by markvz on November 30, 2011 at 7:49 AM · Report this
GGG always seemed like a useful concept, but it irritates me that so many people take it as gospel, especially to the point where they accuse their partner of being some kind of evil infidel if the partner doesn't want to do everything they say. I thought GGG is supposed to be something encouraging to people (as in the case of BALLS's wife), not ammunition for manipulating your partner, or a reason to feel shamed and guilty (as in the case of MBIIH). Is sexuality a cult? Is Dan the supreme judge who's going to bless everyone's sexual relationships or damn them? I don't think so, but an awful lot of letter writers seem to be almost fundamentalist about GGG.
Posted by Drusilla on November 30, 2011 at 8:10 AM · Report this
I like "dyke." "Gay" is okay, as are "queer" and "homo." I'm not too crazy about "lesbian" as a noun. I HATE "lesbian" as an adjective.
Posted by chichaca on November 30, 2011 at 8:23 AM · Report this
Andreas375 48
@ 3: I may not be Dan, but I may be able to be of help with your dilemma.

If you are certain that this man does not have the same feelings for you, and that he will not leave his current relationship, etc., then go easy on yourself and allow yourself time to regroup, or maybe even to grieve. It's always a dicey spot to be in, being in love with something, or someone unattainable.

It's hard to find room to be not only honest with yourself, but also to find some grace and kindness along the way to be able to really learn from what you experience..

I'd say just accept it flat-out that he will be in a relationship with someone else other than you and to listen to your heart somehow.

Be kind to yourself. It's easy to forget sometimes. Hang in there. Take care..
Posted by Andreas375 on November 30, 2011 at 8:38 AM · Report this
geoz 49
I like the comment that you can put up with more BS from someone supplying orgasms. Agreed. In fact, it is the downfall of many when taken to the extreme.
Posted by geoz on November 30, 2011 at 8:45 AM · Report this
Color me conservative but being in a relationship from the age of 18 to 20, with someone who wants to do nothing but have sex, and subsequently moving in together, does not sound like a well thought out idea. That relationship is heading towards splitsville.
Posted by AbeF on November 30, 2011 at 8:52 AM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 51
@9 and @45 If it exists, somebody has fetishized it.

In the gay world, there are lines of videos for the fetishes mentioned above. There is a guy who releases videos under the name Shotgun videos (or at least used to) that are dedicated to ballbusting and ONLY ballbusting. There is also a line of videos called Gag the Fag dedicated to gagging and puking guys with oral.

And, if this porn exists in the gay world, it most definitely exists in the straight world. I'm pretty sure I've seen video covers of gagging girls with huge cocks or guys getting their balls busted by a dominatrix. Also, ball stomping porn exists, but I have no names for any series of either.

Anyways, PUKE's letter makes it sound like it was just a like of his that came up casually in conversation. Not even one that he wanted her to do necessarily. Just that he liked it. It probably makes him think his dick is HUMUNGINORMOUS. If he's worth dating, he'd be understanding if you never did it, or wanted to do it.

And, yay to BALLS for getting hit in the balls AND staying married for it.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on November 30, 2011 at 9:11 AM · Report this
BlackRose @22 referred to the average amount of PIV as roughly 2-3x a week.

From the Kinsey Institute I find the following:

In the 18-24 y/o range, 45% of married men report PIV 2-3x a week (and 20% report 4x or more) although married women in that age disagree somewhat (35% say 2-3 times, and 24% say 4x or more).

But that's the only group where it's so high.

After age 25, married men and women all report averages of "A few times per month to weekly"…

Wiki says 2-3 times/week is average, but they don't break it down by age.
Does anyone have research saying married couples in the US, over age 25, average more than 1x/week?
Posted by EricaP on November 30, 2011 at 9:23 AM · Report this
Scrufff 53
@12 i would venture to guess that yes there are male "Lesbians," that is - men from the island of Lesbos ;-)
Posted by Scrufff on November 30, 2011 at 9:29 AM · Report this

"Dyke" is a butch lesbian in my book.
Posted by Hunter78 on November 30, 2011 at 9:31 AM · Report this
The Max 55
DAN: "all of that falls under the FTF exclusion, or a "fetish too far," which you'll find in the fine print on the back of your GGG card, PUKE."

Where did PUKE get her GGG card? I didn't even know that it was a thing that exists! I want one SO BAD! Where do I get one? Any price is worth it! And there are only 24 shopping days til Christmas, too!
Posted by The Max on November 30, 2011 at 9:34 AM · Report this
But, averages aside, I agree with BlackRose that averages don't matter if you're not happy with how much you get.

When trying to figure out if two people are compatible in that way, I wonder if it helps for them to pay attention to who initiates? If the guy is always the initiator, that may seem fine to both in year 1, but it will probably become an issue by year 4 or 5. Before marriage, he might want to ease off on initiating, to see if she picks up the slack or is happy with a lower frequency. Because if she's mostly doing it for him, and doesn't want it herself more than 1/week, he should probably understand that the frequency is likely to go down after a few years.
Posted by EricaP on November 30, 2011 at 9:35 AM · Report this
Unless of course, she's uncomfortable initiating.
Posted by Firefly on November 30, 2011 at 9:38 AM · Report this
ankylosaur @28 "a person who disagrees or refuses to satisfy a sex partner's fetish also should not think less of said sex partner."

I think that's the argument for mentioning your kinks early in a relationship. If you like to think about incest, your partner may not only not want to participate, but may be squicked by the idea that you are fantasizing about your sister (or even a fictional sister). Or poop, or snuff, or whatever. Her squicks aren't likely to change, regardless of how GGG she wants to be. (GGG means you're "game" to try things you don't think you'll like. It doesn't mean you can control your reactions.) So tell people early, and get out of relationships where your partner clearly is disgusted by your kink.
Posted by EricaP on November 30, 2011 at 9:43 AM · Report this
geoz 59
#50 - "splitville" - are you visiting us from 1978?
Posted by geoz on November 30, 2011 at 9:49 AM · Report this
geoz 60
@#50 - "splitsville"? - are you visiting us from 1978?
Posted by geoz on November 30, 2011 at 9:50 AM · Report this
@30 Black Rose: I still basically agree with Dan. As I said in a previous post, MBIIH's boyfriend, although I haven't actually met him and don't know him personally, appears to have a sexually insatiable appetite and seems more than willing to go 24/7. Going 24/7 is what I find unreasonable, not over whether or not a relationship can be worked out. If his girlfriend considers him "lucky to have what he has at 4 times a week" and he's still unhappy, he has the option to go elsewhere, and so does she.

Anklosaur makes some good points in trying to make the existing relationship work. I'd like to see that happen before a breakup over how much some guy was--or wasn't--getting.

Posted by auntie grizelda on November 30, 2011 at 9:57 AM · Report this
Good Gay Girl: Have you been examined by a doctor? Are you sure your hymen is intact? I am only asking because you may have been molested at a very young age (like myself), and don't remember it.
Posted by marilynsue on November 30, 2011 at 10:02 AM · Report this
If you know of other conservative Christians who would like to get kicked in the balls, I know several people who are ready and eager to oblige.
Posted by beccoid on November 30, 2011 at 10:15 AM · Report this
John Horstman 64
@12: De-essentialized identities, postmodern bodies, etc. Google ["male lesbian" "queer theory"] or even just ["male lesbian"] (you need the quotes to do the phrase search and narrow the results).

Somewhat briefly: the decoupling of the body from sex- and gender-identity inherent to trans politics allows for the possibility of male lesbians or lesbian men. It might help to consider the "political lesbian" of the Second Wave, which proposed "lesbian" as a category not of sexual practice (or even necessarily gender, though in the Seventies it was restricted to women) but of political identification and affiliation.

The problem basically comes down to the fact that constructing groups or categories is an exercise in power, and some will object to the inherent in-group/out-group delineations (and some of them not just to be contrarian but because they really do think they're being unfairly/inaccurately defined/included/excluded by whomever is drawing the lines). Because our understandings of even physical characteristics and systems are socially-constructed, pretty much any lexical or categorical definition can be contested (depending on one's perspectives and the specifics of the case in question, one may view such a contestation as legitimate or not), hence the lesbian man/male lesbian, which claims a sexual identity or sexual gender decoupled from the body and/or gender.
Posted by John Horstman on November 30, 2011 at 10:23 AM · Report this
Sorry, I'm still at a bit of a loss here. Who gets to determine what it's reasonable to be game for? The people who have trouble getting outside of their comfort zones? The whiny little bitches who demand that their partners do things that they're uncomfortable with (often without taking the time to educate themselves or their partners about the physical and/or emotional implications of whatever weird or nasty thing they want to do or trying to look at things from their partner's point of view (e.g. PUKE's boyfriend), followed by withdrawing from the relationship if they don't get their way or cheating on their partner (e.g., BALLS' infidelity (incidentally, exactly the sort of behavior I've come to expect from people who go out of their way to identify as Christians (no offense to Christians out there who aren't self-serving hypocrites with self-control or moral fiber deficiences))? The hive mind of terminally sex-pre-occupied, under-inhibited blowhards with entitlement issues? The hive mind of the overly prudish and moralistic bedroom monitors? Dan Savage?
Posted by asdfadsf on November 30, 2011 at 10:24 AM · Report this
Azul 66
@62: I hope you're not implying that a lack of a hymen in someone that thinks she's a virgin means she was molested at a young age... (b/c the way you worded your post kind of sounds like you might think that). Of course there are women who were born without hymens; tampons can widen already existing holes in hymens; bike riding and horseback riding are often cited as causes for broken hymens...
Posted by Azul on November 30, 2011 at 10:27 AM · Report this
@30: I still basically agree with Dan. Anklosaur makes some good points about trying to make a relationship work.
My observation is that MBIIH's boyfriend, although I have never actually met him and don't know him personally, appears to have an insatiable sexual appetite and seems to want it 24/7. Anyone wanting sex 24/7 is what I find unreasonable.
If MBIIH's boyfriend is unhappy, he has the option of seeking out a partner who will fulfill his needs, just as MBIIH does. I'd rather see this couple work out the relationship than break up because of what he was--or wasn't---getting.
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 30, 2011 at 10:31 AM · Report this
Sorry for the double post!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 30, 2011 at 10:32 AM · Report this
I don't see how breaking that 4 times a week is logistically difficult. I'm at 8 or 9 even though I work 50-80 hours a week.

Working out more than an hour a day is common. Sex doesn't take more than an hour.
Posted by mage on November 30, 2011 at 10:39 AM · Report this
John Horstman 70
@38: Also, 'norms' are coercive social/cultural standards that may or may not have anything to do with what is typical or normal or even possible (for example, our beauty norms are so disconnected from reality at this point that most advertisements for beauty products digitally alter the photographs they use because what we consider most beautiful is actually impossible to achieve in reality).

@43: So your response to someone else's use of a self-label or a label for others that's widely understood (but not universally, as your own experience demonstrates) to be non-derogatory when used without derogatory intent is to intentionally attempt to offend people with a label that is widely understood (but not universally) to be a hateful derogatory term? You're a fucking asshole. What you ought to do is tell them that the term bothers you and politely ask them to refrain from using it around you. If they don't, then they're being assholes too, but your described response is completely unwarranted, as is your hegemonic assertion that everyone adopt your personal understanding and use of language based on your (sad and unfair, to be sure) personal history of trauma. The fact that something bad happened to you doesn't give you free license to be a vindictive fuck nor dictate everyone's language use. Also, you may need to train yourself to recognize the fact that context and intent are important factors in the meanings of terms and try to overcome your knee-jerk reaction. A formal discipline like Queer Theory becomes impossible to discuss with/around you if you cannot abide the term 'queer' under any circumstances.

@62: Hormonal changes during puberty and everyday activity actually wear the vaginal corona (the new terminology that challenges the history of a male-dominated medical establishment defining women's bodies for them) or hymen away even without any sort of vaginal penetration. While tearing of remaining coronal tissue can occur during penetrative sexual intercourse, this isn't limited to the first time one engages in vaginal penetration (nor does it necessarily occur, as the coronal tissue is quite flexible), and bleeding can be a result of tearing of vaginal tissues other than coronal tissue, especially if the woman in question is not sufficiently aroused and/or there is little or no vaginal lubrication.

For more info on the corona/hymen shaped by science and not the cultural myths about 'virginity' please see Scarleteen (includes a cartoony anatomical drawing that may be NSFYW):…
Posted by John Horstman on November 30, 2011 at 10:45 AM · Report this
In regards to Good, Gay, Girl: don't forget your G spot! It's a great way to enjoy vaginal play.
Posted by siobhanachu on November 30, 2011 at 11:00 AM · Report this
BEG 72
BALLS -- is awesome!

One bit I'd add to the GGG on the puke -- I do note he was trusting/comfortable enough to tell her about how it did turn him on. If that happened to me, I'd be firm about not wanting to go "there" and I'd also let him know that I valued his trust in telling me.

As for the whole lesbian/label thing etc, I dunno. Granted I'm bi but I've always sorta not cared for "lesbian" -- it's very clinical. "Gay woman" works fine for me, tho it's annoying that while you'll see "gay men", "gays" alone generally implies men. Meh. But I agree everyone gets to call themselves what they like. And the nonsexual GGG ;-) response is to honor those wishes per person...
Posted by BEG!/browneyedgirl65 on November 30, 2011 at 11:01 AM · Report this
BEG 73
Hymens are weird things. I know of women who never had a single issue with it, and others who had to have sex several times before it went away. There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason to it.
Posted by BEG!/browneyedgirl65 on November 30, 2011 at 11:08 AM · Report this
It's funny that when someone doesn't want any sex, Dan always refers them to a doctor. I would think that someone who wants sex all the time should do the same. There's something absurd about not being able to be sexually satisfied and then whining and exaggerating about not getting sex enough even though it sounds like he gets an orgasm at least once a day through some type of stimulation. This man sounds like a bottomless sex pit. I'm sure he'd learn something if he talked to a doctor and got some tests done to see why he needs sex that often. I'm sure his life would be a lot happier that if instead of wanting sex all the time, he wanted it once, and whether he spanked it or got some PIV, or whatever, he was satisfied. Why would you want to keep torturing yourself with being that horny all the time?
Posted by abbakabba on November 30, 2011 at 11:20 AM · Report this
@69 Logistically, working 50-80 hrs a week wouldn't hinder sexual opportunity. But when you have 2 people who work very opposite shifts (as I mentioned in my post 41) sometimes you only get 2 hours a day together. You can't spend ALL of your time having sex, you need to be able to connect in other ways too. And most of the time, yes, it does take over an hour. Sometimes I miss quickies.
Posted by KateRose on November 30, 2011 at 11:36 AM · Report this
To MBIIH. There are alot of woderful people out there. Time to ditch the MF and find someone who can really appreciate you. By the way, R U willing to share your contact info!!!!!!
Posted by Bondsman51 on November 30, 2011 at 12:02 PM · Report this
mydriasis 77

"who's understandably pooped after 4 times a week"

Jeez, it's not like running a marathon or anything. That's not even once a day.

If I were in a situation where I had access to oral and manual in unlimited amounts but was only allowed to have PIV 4 times a week I would dump that guy soooo fast.

I'd have to disagree with that. I used tampons before having sex and I most DEFINITELY felt the hymen break the first time I had sex. It wasn't painful (or at least it wasn't enough pain over and above the pain of penetration for me to notice) but there was definitely a struggle involved. The look on his face when he broke it is one of those things that I will always remember.
I'm just saying that its still possible to have a hymen-breaking experience after tampon use - this is also outlined if you read the box.

Oh come on, like you've never exaggerated.


"Anyone wanting sex 24/7 is what I find unreasonable."

Oh hai! Maybe I think not wanting sex 24/7 is unreasonable. How about that? :p
Posted by mydriasis on November 30, 2011 at 12:06 PM · Report this
Re: 4x/week. When we're young, we tend to have this romantic notion that we'll find the right person that we have everything in common with, that we'll never have a reason to fight or disagree, and that we'll live happily ever after. How often we have sex fits into this fantasy if we think about it. As we get older, we realize (I hope) that making a relationship work is as much or more about learning ways to negotiate, compromise, disagree, and fight fair, than it is about finding that magical person.

That's what disturbs me about MBIIH's letter. I see no evidence of conflict resolution. It almost doesn't matter what the conflict is about. This time it's about frequency of sex, but it could be about how to do the laundry.

Dan's answer is good in one sense. He suggests a way to make it clear to the boyfriend that he's being unreasonable. I guess you could say he suggests a method of conflict resolution, but it's a terrible one. You're demanding something I don't like so I'll demand something that you're sure not to like, and that way you'll know how I feel? It's ridiculous. PIV sex in the right amount feels good to this straight young woman. (At least, I suppose so. She doesn't say it outright.) But anal sex is sure to feel bad to that straight man in any amount. It's not a fair comparison.

Besides, it's not going to work on that immature jerk. Sex in a relationship is supposed to be about making each other feel good on some level. (Yeah, I know we tend to get into trouble for sweeping generalizations, but cut me a break for that one.) This guy doesn't sound interested in making his girlfriend feel good. He sounds interested in using her for sex. Unless he comes around, or unless he's incredible in some way I'm not seeing, dump him.
Posted by Crinoline on November 30, 2011 at 12:08 PM · Report this
Dr. Moriarty 79
@22- Desiring what you desire isn't unreasonable, it's all in how you handle it. But I don't know where you (and @69) think having sex 2x/day or working out more than an hour a day isn't unusual. I freely admit we may just move in completely different circles, but I hang out with a lot of open-minded sex-positive people. I've known probably 2 people in my life who worked out more than one hour a day, and to my knowledge I've *never* known someone who was having sex 2x/day after they had been dating someone over a year. Those things just *aren't* common. I don't doubt some people do, or that some people desire it. Just don't try to make it sound like it happens all the time.
Posted by Dr. Moriarty on November 30, 2011 at 12:14 PM · Report this
AFinch 80
"So tell people early, and get out of relationships where your partner clearly is disgusted by your kink."

Great, great advice!
Posted by AFinch on November 30, 2011 at 12:33 PM · Report this
@77 lol, of COURSE I've exaggerated. I think its human nature, even if we try not to. BUT, I still think if her letter is accurate and he regularly states that they never have sex, that's more than exaggerating.
For example, I might say after a week of rarely seeing my bf that we never have sex anymore. I don't say it if we had sex the night before.
Posted by KateRose on November 30, 2011 at 12:34 PM · Report this
@10/11 Sorry, somehow missed you there and misinterpeted you. I must have been on a roll last night.

@25 Thanks! I blame abstinence only sex ed for that one.
Posted by mygash on November 30, 2011 at 12:35 PM · Report this
Jesus Dan, have you forgotten what it's like to be a 22 year old boy with hormones raging? When I was that age I was fucking my girlfriend twice a day, every day plus jacking off when she wasn't around. I guess I was lucky to find a girl with an equal dose of hormoes and a puss made of industrial grade shoe leather. Good thing I married her. Now, 32 years later we're finally slowing down to the 4x per week that you think is normal. Whew... good to know we're finally normal in your eyes.
Posted by hornymofo on November 30, 2011 at 12:40 PM · Report this
My personal take on the limits of GGG are that if it produces a sensation that you as the recipient of that sensation find unpleasant, you don't have to agree to have it inflicted on you in order to keep your GGG card. It's your damned body, after all.

For the LW, the (hypothetical) BF gets to enjoy all the puke he wants, as long as he either is the one doing the puking, or he finds someone who enjoys the sensation of being made to gag/puke. That isn't the LW, and she no more forfeits her GGG card for refusing that than she would be for refusing to be the target of a beating or a cattle prod.

GGG should be about being willing to do things for (or to) the person who wants them, not about being willing to have things done to you that you don't want. Even in that context, however, "a fetish too far" still applies, as does "reasonable things in unreasonable quantities."
Posted by avast2006 on November 30, 2011 at 12:46 PM · Report this
balderdash 85
Kudos to BALLS for not immediately discarding anything some faggot on the internet had to say. Being open to new information and perspectives from people you're normally segregated from ideologically isn't common or easy. If Bill O'Reilly said something wise and useful (for once), I admit I'd have a damned hard time accepting and using it no matter how true it might be.

The world's a better place for rational, open-minded people, even when we disagree about most things. Enjoy your rejuvenated marriage, BALLS. You've earned it.

(And yes, it would of course be polite to return the favor as Dan suggested.)
Posted by balderdash on November 30, 2011 at 12:47 PM · Report this
I don't imagine I'll ever get a better chance to tell "everyone" about my amazing girlfriend. When we started having sex, it was every day if possible, several times when logistically feasible. Nearly a year later, we still try, but sometimes we need to sleep or work. Of course, sometimes we get to work late... And, she wants it at least as much as I do, and is always ready and willing if I am. If anything, only the number of times I can repeat in a day holds us up, not her willingness!

So, yes, finding someone this amazing AND this sexually compatible is important. (I mentioned she was amazing too, right?)

That is all!
Posted by OlderMan on November 30, 2011 at 1:00 PM · Report this
avast@84 - I don't agree with your distinction about who is feeling what. If I can't stand hurting someone, or diapering them, I don't have to do it, even though nothing is being done to me.

Here's my take on GGG: Start by dating people with similar interests. If you're vanilla, avoid dating the local dungeon master; if you're poly, avoid dating insecure monogamous people.

Then, to be GGG, each person agrees to experiment a bit beyond their comfort zone, and keep an open mind. You're trying to see if you can enjoy things you didn't think you would enjoy, when you see your partner's look of delight. If you hate it, and you've tried it a few times, then you stop. Maybe you try it again after you figure out more about your arousal patterns, or when you're feeling very generous, or maybe not.

And you each realize that if you demand that your partner go far beyond their comfort zone, or keep doing things they've tried and hated – that's likely to destroy the relationship. So if you like the relationship, you keep your requests within what the other person finds reasonable. Ideally, both people feel brave and generous; both people feel their absolute needs are being met. If not, it may not be a question of GGG, it may be an issue of incompatibility.
Posted by EricaP on November 30, 2011 at 1:02 PM · Report this
@78 - "This guy doesn't sound like he's interested in making his girlfriend feel good. He sounds like he's interested in using her for sex."

BINGO! Even the letter writer says something like "Whenever we sit down together, he's immediately horny..." She isn't capable of sitting down, putting her feet up and just hanging out with the BF, because he's immediately demanding to pop his load in or on her. Even the most willing GGG person on the planet would start to resent that kind of behavior. And she's in college! Try studying with a needy boy pestering you for sex constantly.

Honey, take control of your own life. Tell him to bug off, and get yourself through school. Play around if you want to, but at your age, your life should be about YOU. So don't make any super-serious commitments. Once you graduate, if you want to try to pick it back up with this boy, then that's great. But that's a decision for the future.
Posted by sanguisuga on November 30, 2011 at 1:32 PM · Report this
the hymen is not a myth. it just isn't the same for everybody. mine was incredibly painful to break (at 19, after years of sexual experience), it was like an operation, and I bled for two days. So there.
Posted by hymens do exist on November 30, 2011 at 1:33 PM · Report this
nocutename 90
EricaP and I have disagreed a lot over time, but this take on what constitutes GGGness by her definition, and how to address sexual incompatibility is intelligent and thoughtful.
Posted by nocutename on November 30, 2011 at 1:53 PM · Report this
First person experience: hymens are real. And yes, can bleed (more than just a little) and hurt more than just a little.

I've spoken to lots of friends who have had different experiences, but to say that hymens can't (for some) be a real... barrier... is quite false.
Posted by Not a delicate flower on November 30, 2011 at 2:04 PM · Report this
I can't believe there hasn't been a comment so far along the lines of "Come get your GGG cards here! (websitename)" The person who finally does that is going to make a killing. (I'm not willing to take this on, sorry.)
Posted by LM on November 30, 2011 at 2:06 PM · Report this
After 25 years of marriage and both of us pushing 50 we are at about 4X per week. We have gone through dry spells because of various illnesses and prescription drugs, but have held pretty solid for the last few years. My wife would like more, but that is about my limit without "enhancement" (which can result in that 4x being per day). I don't think it is too much of a reach to find someone who would be up for every day.

Being pissy about it though is a bit out of line.
Posted by garumph on November 30, 2011 at 2:07 PM · Report this
mydriasis 94
"Even the most willing GGG person on the planet would start to resent that kind of behavior. And she's in college! Try studying with a needy boy pestering you for sex constantly."

Wrong and wrong.

1. I wouldn't resent it.
2. I'm a student with a relatively demanding courseload. Sex helps me focus! My grades suffer if I can't have sex for a stretch. Yeah exams/midterms/etc sometimes mean I can't spend lots of time with other people.... but that means that I cut out the other stuff, not the sex. Not everyone is the same.
Posted by mydriasis on November 30, 2011 at 2:17 PM · Report this
mydriasis 95

I think you're probably right.
It's funny because I don't know if I would meet Dan's criteria for GGG but I've never had any problems in real life. I wonder.
Posted by mydriasis on November 30, 2011 at 2:22 PM · Report this
Regarding the first letter this week (11/30/11). Does anyone here ever use the a-word--addict? If this guy cannot sit down with his GGG without its turning sexual, could anyone at least entertain the notion that he is a sex addict? I know this is a tricky question in a sex-negative culture. However it is at least a possibility. I don't know when high libido separates from addiction, but if it is, then no matter how much sex this guy gets, it will never be enough. I think that this GGG is being amazing, or maybe she is enabling. At least consider it.
Posted by spidermedicine on November 30, 2011 at 2:24 PM · Report this
@12 and @64:
To put it simply, the problem is adjective vs. noun. People say "lesbian woman" because they're trying to make "lesbian" the adjective that it should be. Minority groups don't like being named by others and then having that name applied to them as a noun. If you don't understand what I'm saying, substitute the word "black." How does it sound when someone says, "oh, the blacks like to eat fried chicken, don't they?" It sounds horribly racist. But it's ok to use the word "lesbians" in the same manner. I saw an episode of Law and Order recently in which an attorney said, "well, the lesbians won't help us, so we have to go back to the other witnesses." Would it have been okay on national TV for him to have said, "well, the blacks won't help us" ??? I doubt it.

There's also a history of the word "lesbians" being used as the butt of jokes by straight people in pop culture. That may be another reason why women-lovin'-women such as myself HATE the word.
Posted by hiker on November 30, 2011 at 2:37 PM · Report this
balderdash 98
@96, while I agree that it sounds like the guy is exhibiting some poorly-socialized behavior, I think that probably stems from a bad relationship and possibly him just being a douche.

The APA doesn't even recognize sex addiction as a phenomenon. There are known sexual compulsivity disorders but they're significantly different from what might be accurately described as addiction. The term "sex addiction" is popular these days, but mostly among the sex-phobic, moralistic, and editorially alarmist.

It doesn't sound like the sex is really the problem here so much as his attitude towards women, or at least this woman in particular. His sex drive as described isn't any higher than mine; he just seems to feel entitled to indulge it with her every single time he's horny. Most of us just, you know, masturbate. He's treating his girlfriend like a sex toy.
Posted by balderdash on November 30, 2011 at 2:40 PM · Report this
If you're going to disprove the myth of the hymen, definitely be clear about which myth that is. 89 could have been written by me. (I have encountered the myth of the vanishing hymen whose rupture results in no pain or blood if you Do It Right amongst those who have moved on from the myth that lots of pain and blood proves virginity.)
Posted by Interplanet Janet on November 30, 2011 at 2:46 PM · Report this
I think the reason Dan is considering 4x a week to be a lot is that he's overestimating the stress that piv puts on the vagina. The anus is more delicate and can probably withstand much less frequent penetration without discomfort. I can't imagine many people are taking it in the ass twice every day comfortably, but I may be wrong. However, I don't personally know any women who would be sore at 4x a week, at least once a day should be easily sustainable (assuming he's properly warming her up). She never gave any specific reason why she "can't" do it more often, it kind of baffled me. But I entirely agree with Dan that as long as she's being that generous with oral/manual and encouraging him to jerk off all he wants, if he cares about her he should stop whining and consider himself pretty lucky.
Posted by jille on November 30, 2011 at 2:53 PM · Report this

Yes, we know you've never had any problems in real life.
Posted by Hunter78 on November 30, 2011 at 3:17 PM · Report this
Re "lesbian" synonyms-- we could go collegiate, and call them the "Lady Gays".
Posted by Hunter78 on November 30, 2011 at 3:25 PM · Report this
@94 - Bully for you.

I, on the other hand, resent being treated like a living sex toy.

And I still think that at this time of her life, she should be focused on her needs, and not on getting whiny-boy off at any given moment.
Posted by sanguisuga on November 30, 2011 at 3:32 PM · Report this
It's all in the tone and context of labels. If used in a derogatory context labels of any kind can be used to demean, control and marginalize.

Historically, and in my personal experience, the label "lesbian" or "lesbo" has often been used in a derogatory manner. Women like myself who identify as and are outwardly recognizable as "lesbian" (and therefor do not pass as "straight") are still not generally embraced even within the LGBTQ community. Even in large urban areas where one would think there might be a larger range of gender expression, identification and acceptance there is a lot of pressure to conform to social norms (i.e. "look like a girl") in the LGBTQ community -- and especially the lesbian community.

Take it a step further and identify oneself (as I do) on the "butch" side of the butch femme dynamic (…) and then the social disapproval escalates even further.

It infuriates me when those within the LGBTQ community continue to turn up their noses at the word "lesbian". In my opinion, rejection of the label "lesbian" is an extended form of misogyny. Go ahead, call yourself "gay" (as I sometimes do, too, as shorthand) or whatever you want but don't eschew a label that, like it or not, defines your sexual orientation.

You are a l-e-s-b-i-a-n, "Good Gay Girl". Stop the self-hate.
Posted by butch lesbian on November 30, 2011 at 3:36 PM · Report this
mydriasis 105

Some women enjoy sex.
Posted by mydriasis on November 30, 2011 at 3:39 PM · Report this
mydriasis 106
Just because someone doesn't have a problem having fun in bed doesn't mean that they don't have any problems.

There's actually a number of bad things that can happen to a person that have nothing to do with sex! Hard to believe, I know.
Posted by mydriasis on November 30, 2011 at 3:41 PM · Report this
@105 - I enjoy sex.

When I'm not pressured into it, and a willing participant. Again, I'm not a living sex toy, and I resent it when men feel entitled to my body.
Posted by sanguisuga on November 30, 2011 at 3:44 PM · Report this
Golly, my wife and I have been together for over 20 years, are nearly 60, and we are probably DOWN to 4 times a week. That really doesn't seem like much to me.
Posted by Dave33 on November 30, 2011 at 4:15 PM · Report this
"Lesbian woman" is, in fact, a redundant phrase.

There are biologically male individuals who identify as lesbians, but they also identify as women. (If they didn't identify as women, there would be no reason for them to call themselves lesbians.)

They might refer to themselves as "lesbian-identified males," like Lisa from The L Word, but the term "male" in that expression refers to one's physical gender, not one's identity. People who call themselves LIMs still consider themselves to be women, when it comes to who they are deep down.
Posted by Fidelio on November 30, 2011 at 5:18 PM · Report this
@27 - don't scare her even more. You are a LOT more likely to have tears with anal sex than vaginal. And you can let the vaginal ones heal, if they ever happen which is pretty damn unlikely unless you are on some seriously poorly planned adventures (or a douchebag of a guy). But you kinda have to use your ass and it doesn't just bleed, the pain is astonishing...
@62 - really?
@99 - you can stretch the thing out before you break it (takes a lot of repetition I think, but isn't that what fingers are for?). If you don't put anything huge in there, you won't bleed and it won't hurt. Depends on how you're built I guess.
To the lady with the hymen fears - I assume you are afraid of being hurt because you've tried to put stuff up there and it hurt. You may have an unusually thick or wide hymen. Next time you go to the gyno, have her scope it out, and see if she can cut it for you. Might be a twinge, maybe she'll give you some of the good pills for that, and it'll bleed a bit, but you'll be able to use the thing for a change and it's quite fun. Really they should offer this service to everyone as a convenience. Vaginas are lot more robust than an asshole for sure, and it hurts a lot more for most people to be anally penetrated for the first time than vaginally. If you haven't had anything inside you, even a tampon, at all due to a phobia , start with fingers (fingers should NOT hurt - if they do, ask the gyno), and see how much you can take/want. Unless someone is going at you like a jackhammer, they aren't going to tear your hymen by accident, assuming you even have one (some women don't). The thing isn't like tissue paper. Mine didn't break until I had a very sizable dick in there (I was wondering what was slowing him down, then, oh right! Well shit, didn't think I even had one. Didn't hurt. Bled some but stopped fast.). No big deal. Don't let your crazy sister, religious mom, or batshit sex ed teacher from middle school mess you up on this. It's fun to play with. At least give it a try. Don't be tense, have a couple of orgasms first, relax your muscles (if you have pain it might not be your hymen, it might be vaginismus, totally different issue, wiki it (although I think people who have this are generally not able to do anal), ask a gyno, but a single finger should not cause any problems even if you are super tense), and work your way up. Mostly, like with anal, having something inside you will make you cum harder than just clit alone. And it feels good. Like with anal. If anything, you might be surprised at the lack of sensation compared with anal, but it's nice to have the option, there's no prep, it's a fun thing to play with, can take a lot more hard use, and also don't listen to the stories - it's something people put a lot of emotional freight on and enjoy telling horror stories about, like childbirth or having to wait in line at the DMV. It's unusual to have much pain, if you do, ask a gyno. You obviously do not have to do any of this, but I assume you are asking because you are interested in getting over it. So try it out and have fun!
And use whatever words you want. They are your words. If they insist on introducing you to others as their friend the lesbian, just say "I prefer clitsucker" and see how long it takes your friends to learn. And if they bitch? Well, that's bitchy. Let them know it.

Posted by gnot on November 30, 2011 at 5:31 PM · Report this
@94: While I'm similar to you in that I never cut out the sex unless I'm physically ill, I still agree that this poor girl is being treated like a sex toy. Vaginal intercourse four times a week, plus blow jobs, plus hand jobs, plus nakedness for visual stimulation, and then when she tells him that she's not in the mood or she has something that she actually has to do and then he says "but you NEVER want to have sex!" when they're doing it at least every other day? I find that unreasonable. Also, if my boyfriend acted like that, I'd start to wonder if he really cares about doing anything with me OTHER than fuck, especially since she described him as "immediately horny" "whenever we sit down together". I would personally begin to wonder whether he really cared about the other aspects of my being, you know? And again, I say this as a girl with a twice or more a day PIV habit. I would resent a guy who gets horny just from looking at me and then gets bitchy when I don't want to fuck him every minute of every day. It's not that I think that desiring sex more than 4 times a week is unreasonable, but I do think it's unreasonable to bitch about it when she seems to be doing the best she can.

Also, for those of you who don't think that PIV is all that physically taxing- it's not for me most of the time, but if you're a tight girl with a guy with a big dick who likes to fuck hard, every day can be pretty wearing.
Posted by alguna_rubia on November 30, 2011 at 6:07 PM · Report this
@111 plus, five minutes or forty-five of pounding? And balanced by how much pussy-licking (or g-spot play, or whatever her preference is)?
Posted by EricaP on November 30, 2011 at 6:14 PM · Report this
Yes!--#96. I know this sounds silly, but substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka. It sounds like this guy is using sex--and his brain chemistry--to moderate his feelings/emotions--and when he's unable to get his fix, he gets mean & resorts to manipulation. (In a more extreme form, this is called 'sexual rage disorder') I would suggest this young women stop blaming herself for being inadequate. There may be other indicators that this is more than just a hearty sexual appetite. Like, does his pursuit to 'get off' interfere with his job? Is it affecting his finances in any way? Has there been a reduction in his involvement in other outside activities he used to enjoy? It appears to already be affecting his primary relationship in a negative way.

Posted by Amidala on November 30, 2011 at 6:14 PM · Report this
Scrufff @53 - Yep; Thucydides in his history refers a few times to the "Lesbian army", which when I first read Th. as a freshman in college was cause for some adolescent jollies.
Posted by CW in LA on November 30, 2011 at 6:19 PM · Report this
Yes!--#96. I know this sounds silly, but substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka. It sounds like this guy is using sex--and his brain chemistry--to moderate his feelings/emotions--and when he's unable to get his fix, he gets mean & resorts to manipulation. (In a more extreme form, this is called 'sexual rage disorder') I would suggest this young women stop blaming herself for being inadequate. There may be other indicators that this is more than just a hearty sexual appetite. Like, does his pursuit to 'get off' interfere with his job? Is it affecting his finances in any way? Has there been a reduction in his involvement in other outside activities he used to enjoy? It appears to already be affecting his primary relationship in a negative way.
Posted by Amidala on November 30, 2011 at 6:20 PM · Report this
I cannot believe the number of people who are ragging on my recent posts! What's up?? For those of you pissed about "4 times a week" issues, take some deep breaths, and go get laid, already! You'll feel better!

@77 mydriasis: I never said that 4 times a week was "running a marathon or anything" either! I'm not personally holding a gun to your head, ordering you to limit yourself to 4 times a week. Whenever and however you want it, go for it.

You can do what you want, and say and think what you're going to say and think, regardless of my expressed opinion. That's exactly what I'm doing, along with everyone else.
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 30, 2011 at 6:21 PM · Report this
Yes!--#96. I know this sounds silly, but substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka. It sounds like this guy is using sex--and his brain chemistry--to moderate his feelings/emotions--and when he's unable to get his fix, he gets mean & resorts to manipulation. (In a more extreme form, this is called 'sexual rage disorder') I would suggest this young women stop blaming herself for being inadequate. There may be other indicators that this is more than just a hearty sexual appetite. Like, does his pursuit to 'get off' interfere with his job? Is it affecting his finances in any way? Has there been a reduction in his involvement in other outside activities he used to enjoy? It appears to already be affecting his primary relationship in a negative way.
Posted by Amidala on November 30, 2011 at 6:24 PM · Report this
(First time poster--sorry for the multiple posts)
Posted by Amidala on November 30, 2011 at 6:29 PM · Report this
@77 re: post @67: Did you not bother to actually read post @67?
I suggest that you chill out, pour yourself a glass of wine, and re-read what I wrote. "Anyone wanting sex 24/7 is what I find unreasonable".
I, in this case, means Auntie Grizelda, and does not necessarily apply to you.

While you're at it, check out post @116, too.
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 30, 2011 at 6:33 PM · Report this
@110: Both 89 and myself at 99 are relating serious pain and long heavy bleeding despite lots of warming up. e.g. Fingering, over a long time period (months), increasing number of fingers, plenty of foreplay before penetration, etc. Because, you know, that was our actual experience. That despite the stretching, the first time with a cock instead of a finger hurt a hell of a lot, and caused me to wear a maxipad for the next day and move carefully. And we want other women with intact hymens to know this is a possible outcome. Despite the new prevalence of 'if you do some stretching it'll be no big deal, you won't even notice!'
Posted by Interplanet Janet on November 30, 2011 at 6:43 PM · Report this
MBIIH should not reward her boyfriend for whining. He needs to grow up and learn how to ask for sex nicely. And he also needs to know that enough foreplay can do wonders for turning women on.
Posted by Ashley Amber on November 30, 2011 at 6:51 PM · Report this
mydriasis 122

Yeah I read it, I just took issue with your labeling of unreasonableness. Yes, you said it was 'what you consider' but if you're suprised at the way several people responded to your statements then maybe they came off in a certain way you didn't intend or realize.

About the marathon thing: it was a joke. You said it's understandable she would be "pooped" after 4 times a week. That's the same as "tired" isn't it? Like as if having sex every couple days is so exhausting she couldn't manage more.

I just don't get it, that's all.
And in regards to 107 it just seems to me that if someone doesn't want to have sex all the time, then why? Sounds to me like someone who doesn't enjoy sex. But again, that's just my opinion.


"I would resent a guy who gets horny just from looking at me and then gets bitchy when I don't want to fuck him every minute of every day."

You would resent a guy who gets horny just from looking at you? Why? And to be fair, no guy is capable of having sex every minute of every day so the scenario isn't even really possible. The only guys who've gotten bitchy because I didn't want to fuck them were guys that I didn't want to fuck at all. So I don't know.

For me I do count PIV as sex and like I said, that other stuff generally doesn't impress me. I would probably be just as unsatisfied with or without those other things if I wasn't getting enough PIV. So to answer Erica's question (I know you weren't directly asking me but I'm in that boat and I'm curious to see where you're going with this) When I talk about sex I mean just straight PIV, no pussy licking ever. Ever. Duration's in between those two.

I'm a tiny-built girl who avoids well-endowed guys for that reason. Even sex with an average size guy can hurt but that's just part of sex.

People go to the gym and end up sore the next day all the time and they think it's acceptable. Of course I'm willing to tolerate some pain if it's for something that's actually fun.
Posted by mydriasis on November 30, 2011 at 7:06 PM · Report this
LOL @ 34!!!

Posted by Doot on November 30, 2011 at 8:33 PM · Report this
mydriasis @122, that's not me at 111, it's alguna_rubia. Personally, I like that my husband gets horny from looking at me doing the laundry, etc.
When you said my question, what do you mean?
Posted by EricaP on November 30, 2011 at 8:34 PM · Report this
@Mydriasis: But how do we know it is fun for her? We don't know what this 4x a week sex entails for her. Is she just laying there while he pounds away? Does he make any effort to actually get her off? Or does he require her to give pre-penetration head/hand jobs/whatever. Also, we're forgetting about something big...

What is HER sex-drive?

As you said, everyone is DIFFERENT. Perhaps she doesn't have as high as a libido as yours? This is neither a bad thing or a good thing. It's just a matter of DIFFERENCE. If you enjoy having sex a lot, good for you. But if doesn't enjoy it that often and she is already making an effort to accommodate his higher sex drive, then how can she not be doing enough? For all we know 1x a week may be her preference and she's just going along with it to please her "man". And you said it yourself: "Of course I'm willing to tolerate some pain if it's for something that's actually fun." Well, maybe its more hurt and less fun for her.

I understand you're upset because you enjoy sex more than 4x a week. I get it; no one likes to think that their desires are outright unreasonable. Perhaps a better way to word the phrase would be to say "Requiring PIV sex 4x a week +unlimited stripping/hand jobs/oral when it goes much further than your partner's sex drive is unreasonable"
Posted by Artemis9 on November 30, 2011 at 8:50 PM · Report this
If you meant my question @112 - that was trying to express the idea that MBIIH talked a lot about what she does for her boyfriend's sexual pleasure, but doesn't even mention what gets her off. I found that weird.
Posted by EricaP on November 30, 2011 at 8:50 PM · Report this
@125 exactly
Posted by EricaP on November 30, 2011 at 8:52 PM · Report this
Tell your boyfriend to read this. He has NO idea how good he has it. I am married, love my wife dearly, but only get any kind of action once every 4 weeks or so and this is when things are good. Dry spells could and have gone so far as 8-12 weeks with nothing. No hand jobs, no her naked letting me admire her, no oral, no intercourse!!!! He needs to get down on his knees and thank you profusely every single day...Seriously, you are a gift to this guy, he needs to appreciate it!
Posted by Crooked on November 30, 2011 at 9:13 PM · Report this
I thought I'd relate my own hymen story, to represent a place between the two extremes of "agony and blood" vs. "no big deal at all!"

At age 16, my hymen was still intact (I could actually see it if I bent way over and spread my labia). The thing about hymens, though, is that they have a hole in the middle - and this hole expands to let out menstrual blood. So during the heaviest days of my period, I was still able to use a tampon...but if I tried to use one a bit too early or too late in the cycle, it hurt like a bitch and I had to give up and switch to pads. There's no way I could've busted through there myself; I could tell it would hurt way too much.

And yet, by the time I was 17, my hymen had been broken or stretched; I don't remember a defining moment of "ARGH! My vagina!" but something must've happened because I now had a clear view up my vagina and was able to wear tampons at any time of month if I wanted. Maybe certain angles of pressure on a hymen are painful and other angles break it without any discomfort at all, I don't know for sure.

Shortly after that, I had sex for the first time. There was pain as he tried to enter, but I think it might have been from my vagina stretching to accommodate him rather than a hymen thing. The pain was nothing like the feeling I used to get when I used to try to put in a tampon a day too late. And then...I dunno if I managed to relax my muscles or my bf changed his angle of approach or what, but he slid all the way in pretty easily.

But weirdly enough there was blood afterward, even though I never felt the kind of sharp pain that I'd associate with tearing. Not a geyser or anything - just a dime-sized spot of red on the toilet paper after my post-sex pee.

And that's my story.

Posted by perversecowgirl on November 30, 2011 at 9:26 PM · Report this
As far as the term "lesbian" goes, I've always been puzzled by it because certainly the poet Sappho, who enjoyed the company of her fellow woman, was from the island of Lesbos; but the island is inhabited by men as well as women, and most of them are heterosexual (contrary to both the common use of "lesbian" and certain stereotypes of Greek men...)
Posted by Giannis Eitziridis on November 30, 2011 at 9:27 PM · Report this
Also, re: those who are baffled at the idea of penetration being exhausting for the person being penetrated - it's probably not that four-times-a-week girl is so sore that she can't have sex more often - if she's in good health he's not jackhammering her for hours each time, she'll probably have bounced back the next day.

But it's not abnormal for a woman to be a little sore for a few hours after sex, and, y'know...maybe some days she doesn't feel like being sore.

If four-times-a-week-girl's bf has a high sex drive, there's nothing wrong with that (just like there's nothing wrong with her wanting it less). It doesn't make him a bad person. But if he's that unhappy, he should find a girl who's more compatible with him in that respect.

However...I'm not so sure his sex drive is the real issue. I get a strong vibe that he's emotionally abusive and that sex is just the tool he's using to manipulate and guilt-trip his girlfriend.
Posted by perversecowgirl on November 30, 2011 at 9:42 PM · Report this
I like having sex one or two times a day... but I also like eating and having a roof over my head and sometimes I am just too exhausted to do it even though I want to. However, even tho I like to have a lot of sex, more than 4 times a week, sure, if I say no and you act like a pouty bitch about it that is a sure fire way to make me not want to fuck you ever again as long as I live. I lived with a guy like Mr Hornypants for seven long years and by the end I was so turned off and dead I thought I was asexual, a dyke, or both. I wasn't, at all, but I was good and tired of being pestered. And it was NEVER enough. We'd fuck for two hours after bedtime and he'd wake me up in the morning wanting more and if I needed to get up and shower and prepare things for my day, he'd get all pissy "wow we had hot sex last night and now you're back to frigid bitch again, I should have known you weren't really changing." Yuck. THAT is what is unreasonable.
Posted by wendykh on November 30, 2011 at 10:18 PM · Report this
@122 mydriasis: Okay. Fair enough.
@124 EricaP: Your husband gets horny looking at you while you're doing laundry....Wow.
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 30, 2011 at 10:34 PM · Report this
@131: I think you might have nailed the situation of MBIIH.
Posted by auntie grizelda on November 30, 2011 at 10:35 PM · Report this
@132: Sorry. He doesn't seem like he was nice to you. But in all honesty I really sympathize with him. It's HARD to be turned down when you really want sex with someone you really care about. It's even harder to take it gracefully.

@52/56 (EricaP): Those are some truly scary statistics. Looks like 2-3x/week is above average.

As far as determining compatibility, I'm not sure pulling back and looking at how often your partner initiates is a good idea: some people's sexuality is more responsive and they might initiate less than they'd be responsive or willing to please. I'd suggest looking at masturbation frequency, for one thing: someone who masturbated every day when single is probably likely to have a higher baseline sex drive.

This is definitely something people should talk about before getting married: someone who thinks the frequency "might go down in a few years" may not be someone you should marry, even if you're happy now.
Posted by BlackRose on November 30, 2011 at 10:42 PM · Report this
@74: I can't speak for the guy in the letter, but as someone who is a "bottomless sex pit," I wouldn't want my sex drive decreased, and if it lessened I'd feel like I lost an important part of myself. I don't see it as torture; I see it as having more capacity and appreciation for pleasure.

I don't actually think there are any tests or treatments for hypersexuality: it's just part of the normal spectrum of different sex drives.
Posted by BlackRose on November 30, 2011 at 10:50 PM · Report this
@BlackRose, who wrote:
On an off topic note, can I ask you about what you said in another thread about the D/s thing where you had to earn a kiss from someone? I'm interested in how someone could do that while dealing with the social baggage around it: the whole idea that men shouldn't be submissive or that it's pathetic or unattractive to have to earn sex.

I don't know if you're still reading this (I was away for a while, so it took me a while to come back and read your question), but for what it's worth, here is my answer.

The point is that I have rather strong submissive tendencies, so regardless of the baggage you mention (or, in a sweetly perverse way, because of the baggage you mention), it arouses me to be in situations like that. From my persective, playing such a game is a pleasure: it's a win-win situation.

Now, for the women in question, this was at first a problem. Many women I slept with had a more 'sweet' reaction (you might want to call it 'typically/socially feminine') in which they wanted to make me happy, and followed normal behavioral patterns to that effect, including, for instance, lots of kissing. When I mentioned that I did have submissive desires, they were surprised. Often they had heard about such things, but in a context that still made it sound perverse, or evil (a frequent reaction: 'Oh no, poor darling! You must have had some bad/traumatic experience in childhood that made you have this twisted/perverted vision of love and sex and relationships! But I'll help you get better! Let's talk about it!'; or, somewhat less frequently: 'I don't like that! It's horrible! I'm not a sadist! Let's not even talk about it!').

It took some effort to explain to them that these were simply sexual games I liked to play -- things that made me feel sexy. In order to do that, I started with things that didn't seem 'bad', like the kissing game. I've observed that many girls were in such a situation, in which they were playfully 'bad', in a somewhat flirty way, with someone. This usually involves getting some guy to do something for them, like carrying their books, just by smiling and asking. (This doesn't mean they were 'bad girls'; it felt more like playing to them, and often also to the guy involved.) I tried to evoke such memories, and usually this got them to smile and laugh. Then I said I wanted to play this guy's role, and the kissing game ('you have to "earn" a kiss from me!') is a very easy framework for doing that -- it feels like a joke (the first times we did that, I was laughing, she was laughing, and we felt like we're pretending to be little kids), so that the D/s dynamics feels familiar, joking, 'cozy'.

After that, the idea of D/s felt a little less perverted or wrong, and it seemed to them I might not be a poor guy with a childhood trauma to work on. From then on other possibilities were open. :-)

(In all fairness, this didn't always work: many girls didn't like the D/s dynamics in any way, so we simply stopped after a while. I haven't been with that many women who actually enjoyed it; they're the exception rather than the rule in my experience. But the times when it worked usually started like that.)
Posted by ankylosaur on November 30, 2011 at 11:11 PM · Report this
@36 - well said. I'd add, too, that he's making her feel guilty for not doing something that, by the sounds of it, she'd find painful - which is to say, he's making her feel bad for something she can't help. Considering that every long-term relationship has its sexual ups and downs, this does not bode well for the future.

My advice, MBIIH? Yell at him. And maybe tell him that every time he uses words like 'never' or 'you don't want to', he doesn't get any sex of any kind for the rest of the day. GGG includes respecting someone's limits; your limits are generous and fair, and he needs to wake up and stop bullying you.
Posted by Teal on November 30, 2011 at 11:57 PM · Report this
I was all ready to suggest that MBIIH should negotiate with her boyfriend that she'd try to accommodate his high sex drive if he'd do more to satisfy her. I was going to ask what he did for her in terms of foreplay or anything else she wanted. I was about to note how the letter doesn't say anything about her pleasure, and I was going to go on about that. Then I reread the letter.

She says that their sex life has always been awesome and that they both try to be GGG for each other. I'm chiding myself for the way I turned the letter around in my mind into one I could understand. The real thing is rather harder to deal with. The sex is great. He is GGG for her. He just wants sex more than she does and is childish about wants/demands. Hmmm. This one is a puzzle.
Posted by Crinoline on November 30, 2011 at 11:57 PM · Report this
echizen_kurage 140

Sexually compulsive behavior is often treated with high doses of SSRIs. Up to a certain point, I agree with you that high libido should be regarded as heightened capacity for pleasure rather than a pathology, but virtually every appetite carries within it the seeds of tyranny. Which is to say, if someone is too preoccupied with sex to hold down a job or maintain a social life, or routinely makes extremely risky/costly decisions in the pursuit of sexual pleasure, then there might be a real problem.

For my own part, I don't think I have a freakishly high sex drive, but there are times when I kind of step back from myself and think "Hey! Close that porn site, get your hands out of your pants, and go do something productive!" or "Hey! Don't hook up with some stranger you found on Craigslist! You decided last time that you were never going to do that again!" About half of the time my better judgment carries the day, and the other half of the time my libido just barricades itself in the pilot's cabin and keeps right on flying. And I can live with that balance of power, but I'd be downright terrified if my better judgement always lost out to my libido.
Posted by echizen_kurage on December 1, 2011 at 12:03 AM · Report this
@BlackRose, and others, on the topic of the "unreasonableness" of the boyfriend in question: I tend to agree with Crinoline@38 (and other similar ones after that). It's not that wanting sex 4x, 10x, or 50x a week is, in and of itself, bad or wrong; it's (a) that the likelihood of satisfaction decreases as one's need for sex goes beyond the average level (a simple statistical fact, just like having a rare kink means you have to look longer to find another interested partner), and (b) that this guy, in the way he places his demands, seems to be thinking only about himself and his needs; I don't see him giving space for his girlfriend to also defend her side in a negotiation.

In other words, I may be wrong -- we don't have the guy's side on the issue -- but from her letter it seems the boyfriend is a little passive-aggressive or manipulative in that he thinks about his own needs and doesn't seem willing to consider her side -- he asks for sex, complains when he doesn't get it, and doesn't seem to react to her discomfort in any way, not even by looking for a different girlfriend.

If this is the case, then I think he does, as Dan says, need to reassess his situation and allow his girlfriend to express her discomfort and take it seriously -- and then decide what to do. He does seem to be behaving a little like the proverbial spoiled child.
Posted by ankylosaur on December 1, 2011 at 12:07 AM · Report this
Actually, upon re-reading the letter, the LW does describe her sex life with the boyfriend as "awesome", and it doesn't seem that he's actually forcing or manipulating her -- it seems she is the one feeling guilty about not wanting sex as often as he wants, but apparently he isn't complaining. Hm, it seems I sorta stereotyped the situation when I wrote my last comment.

I suppose I would suggest that she express her feelings to him, and ask his opinion. They can together find some way to make him more satisfied -- anything from masturbation to opening the relationship -- together and consensually. I remember being in relationships with non-matching libidos -- me often being the one who wanted more, but a couple of times also the one who wanted less -- and usually it worked to talk about it. There's always the expectation that "my partner should be the solution of all my sexual desire" and it's often difficult to get around that; some people simply won't see unmatched libidos as a problem at all. But if there's a chance of solution, I think it does go through being sincere and discussing the problem without shame and without throwing guilt on each other ('it's all your fault, you want it too much / you never want it!');
Posted by ankylosaur on December 1, 2011 at 12:14 AM · Report this
What 111 said. It isn't whether 4x a week PIV is a lot or a little on any sort of objective scale, if such a thing were possible. It's that, what with 4x a week PIV, plus blowjobs, plus handjobs, plus dropping her clothes on request so he can wank, Boyfriend has a lot of gall calling that "never."

She ought to treat him to about three weeks of "This is what 'never' REALLY looks like," to give him some perspective.
Posted by avast2006 on December 1, 2011 at 12:30 AM · Report this
Thanks Dan for your response to the girl with the boyfriend of bottomless appetite. Married 18+ years to someone similar, I can relate to @132. Since what I do is never enough, and extra effort just raises the bar (as in, why isn't it like this ALL the time)and results in fights. Inadequacy is the order of the day. Nice to hear the opposite.

A separate question is whether this is a relationship deal-breaker. This is the only area that my husband and I argue about, so maybe not. On the other hand, sometimes I think, I'm so tired of this fight, maybe one day I'll just be done. She should think about this, because it won't change.
Posted by Cameo3 on December 1, 2011 at 1:26 AM · Report this
@61/auntie grizelda: What Dan said that I objected to was the idea that the guy was lucky to have what he has now, and he shouldn't complain or want more.

You seem to be saying what I was saying, that they may be incompatible and should try to compromise, but break up if they can't. That part I agree with: it's the whole "you can't do much better" thing that seems fucked up to me. I think 100 was right about Dan not being experienced with vaginas: I wonder how often most people can have anal.
Posted by BlackRose on December 1, 2011 at 1:49 AM · Report this
The BFIIH letter reminds me of that scene in Annie Hall. It's a split screen, we see Alvie and Annie in therapy. Their respective shrinks ask, "How often do you have sex?" They answer at the same time.

Annie: Constantly, like twice a week.
Alvie: Never, like twice a week.

Like many good jokes, it's based on a stereotype. My point is we're only seeing one side here. If she resents the pestering she may well exaggerate the number of times he requests sex to justify her resentment. Regardless, there's clearly some incompatibility here and that will only fester over time.
Posted by repete on December 1, 2011 at 7:34 AM · Report this
@139/142 - she does say the sex is "awesome," but she doesn't give any specifics that involve her sexual pleasure. She's only 20; maybe she has nothing to compare to. I would be happier with their sex life if she mentioned that she has three orgasms every time he has one, or that he's happy to hogtie her every night the way she likes, or that his cock hits her g-spot just right... or anything at all that showed that she has her own agency and pleasure in mind.
Posted by EricaP on December 1, 2011 at 9:00 AM · Report this
@142, plus, he is complaining: "he gets cranky when I have to say no."
Posted by EricaP on December 1, 2011 at 9:02 AM · Report this
I'd love to know what Mr. Balls' opinion on hookers was before going to see one, too.
Posted by WanderingSoul on December 1, 2011 at 9:12 AM · Report this
@145 BlackRose: I agree with you there, too, actually. Nobody should have to settle for less than what they desire and /or need. I made the mistake of settling for less, and now I know better. I've been free of a bad relationship for 10 years now and on to bigger, better things.

By the way, while I know this is off the topic of MBIIH, Dan has mentioned in his book, Savage Love, that he HAS had vaginal intercourse with women, but that the experience wasn't enjoyable for him. The reason and situation: a gay man being pressured to have breeder sex so he'll appear straight. That doesn't sound like much fun.
I wouldn't want to be pressured into sleeping with other women to appear as if I'm a lesbian.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 1, 2011 at 10:57 AM · Report this
@88: BRAVO!!!!!!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 1, 2011 at 11:03 AM · Report this
Further re @150: I'm not homophobic, just not a lesbian.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 1, 2011 at 11:10 AM · Report this
@ 141 anklosaur and @143 avast2006: Well said!

@132 wendykh: Holy shit---you're describing my ex to the "pouty bitch" teeth!! I fully agree: YUCK! After foolishly trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's butt, I finally left him after growing tired of being pestered and bullied, too. Drunken, forced upon sex is not good sex. My biggest mistake back then was believing that it couldn't get any better.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 1, 2011 at 11:46 AM · Report this
Okay, I'm done.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 1, 2011 at 11:49 AM · Report this
@150: Yeah, he has had sexual experiences with women a few times: I especially liked where he described a pussy as feeling like a lasagna noodle. But he hasn't (as far as I know) had relationships with women involving various frequencies of vaginal intercourse, and yeah, it probably wasn't much fun.
Posted by BlackRose on December 1, 2011 at 12:36 PM · Report this
@137/ ankylosaur: That's really interesting and thanks for being willing to talk about it. Was it difficult for you to overcome the idea that there was something unattractive about you for not being in control of kissing, or the fear that you'd get rejected/laughed at/considered less than a man for not being dominant and in charge? (This is interesting to me cause I'm often worried I'm not dominant enough or enough of a leader.)
Posted by BlackRose on December 1, 2011 at 12:39 PM · Report this
All I have to say is that GGG is a dyke that loves getting her ass hole filled......that is soooo fucking HOT!!!
Posted by ass fan! on December 1, 2011 at 1:18 PM · Report this
Horny boyfriend, it's all about compromise, and it's time he did a little or you need to rethink your relationship. Do you really want to deal with this for much of your life? Constant sexual demands turn sex into a chore rather than a pleasure and a man who can't provide affection without trying to turn it into sex takes the pleasure of cuddling out of the relationship. Finally, the sulking and whining are signs of an immature person who views you as a vehicle for his satisfaction rather than a person in your own right. He's sulking and whining because he believes he has some RIGHT to sex from you, and the sex providing module refusing to function is like the toaster not working to him. This is more than a sexual problem; he's not respecting the fact that you're a person with your own rights and wants and needs. Quit worrying about satisfying this guy and think about finding a guy who wants to build a sexual relationship between the two of you, taking your needs into consideration as well.

Posted by GG1000 on December 1, 2011 at 1:41 PM · Report this
Dan, about your answer to BALLS, this straight person says BRAVO! Perfect.
Posted by Marley on December 1, 2011 at 1:51 PM · Report this
I'm not judging, but if I was with someone for 2 years and LIVED with him, I hope I'd be having sex more than 4 times a week! As it is I pretty much demand it 2-3 times per day from whatever partner I happen to be with. Most men can't keep up with me and I wonder if maybe my libido is just amazingly high for a woman, or if they are just freaked out by how much I want it? Who can tell, but I'd gladly take a super-horny man!!
Posted by Dirty D on December 1, 2011 at 2:05 PM · Report this
I'm not judging, but if I was with someone for 2 years and LIVED with him, I hope I'd be having sex more than 4 times a week! As it is I pretty much demand it 2-3 times per day from whatever partner I happen to be with. Most men can't keep up with me and I wonder if maybe my libido is just amazingly high for a woman, or if they are just freaked out by how much I want it? Who can tell, but I'd gladly take a super-horny man!!
Posted by Dirty D on December 1, 2011 at 2:07 PM · Report this
@147-148(EricaP), good points. Maybe she is indeed a little young and doesn't know how to impose herself in a way that is respectful of her boyfriend. When one is young, one is often afraid that whatever one has been able to find is 'the best they could ever have' and that keeping it is worth any sacrifice!...

She does say he's GGG for her. And it could be that she hasn't mentioned her pleasure because it is well taken care of and not really a problem. But still, she might be young and naive. Hard to say.
Posted by ankylosaur on December 1, 2011 at 2:15 PM · Report this
@161(Dirty_D), I guess the point is that a super-horny guy would be better off with you (at least sexually) than with a woman like MBIIH. But then, would you feel like her if you happened to end up in bed with a guy whose libido is even stronger than yours, to the point that even you would have a problem similar to MBIIH's? Maybe not very likely, but still, if it did happen, what would you do?
Posted by ankylosaur on December 1, 2011 at 2:18 PM · Report this
@156(BlackRose), no problemo! You seem like a good person, and if my personal experience, limited though it may be, has some interest to you, so much the better.

I don't think I ever felt like 'not being in control of kissing' was ever related to any insecurities I had (and indeed I did, and do, have them; my physical type -- the thin, non-muscular, bespectacled nerd with the thick books -- is not exactly every teenage girl's dream of a Prince Charming), because, while playing this game, it just felt so damn arounsing that I didn't really "think" that I wasn't in "control".

It's a little bit as if you asked, 'don't you ever feel embarrassed by the fact that you're naked when you're having sex? I mean, wouldn't you be embarrassed if you were naked at work, in front of your colleagues? So why shouldn't you be embarrassed by being naked while having sex?'

I suppose the answer is that the context is so different -- being naked in a sexy context is arousing, being naked in a non-sexy context often is embarrassing and even humiliating (in the bad sense of the word). If need be, think of those lines of naked people being examined by Nazi doctors in Auschwitz. Isn't that nakedness the very opposite of anything arousing?

Likewise, 'not being in control of kissing' as part of a sex game just feels so damn arousing, it's such a pleasant experience, that it's even difficult to think of it as similar to the experience of actually not being in control -- as when you depend on your boss' (or graduate advisor's) permission to go ahead with some specific project, and suddenly you feel s/he's the one who really decides what you will or won't be doing in your work. That feels not at all arousing, totally unlike the kissing game.

I suppose I never connected the kissing game to any non-sexy experience of rejection because the whole background/context is so different. Like every man, I have been rejected by women; we all unpleasant this is. But when I'm playing the kissing game with a girlfriend and everything is going well ('please, please, may I kiss you?' - 'No! you may NOT!'), then I'm with someone who obviously wants to please me, someone to whom I actually had to explain how to play the game, someone who is looking at me and actually enjoying the pleasure she sees in my eyes. To me, it's simply impossible to see/feel this situation as I'd feel a situation of real rejection ('Nope, not interested in a date with you.')

Now, it's always possible that the girl doesn't enjoy the situation (this did happen, alas, more often than I wanted). Then her displeasure with playing this role would break the bond. Now, this displeasure would actually make me feel insecure -- we're not forming a bond, this is not working, the date isn't going well. Curiously, in those moments the woman in question would actually be more polite and respectful -- and I would feel much worse and much more insecure despite the respect they were showing me, because this respect actually meant that we didn't click. It would feel like the politeness that strangers share, a politeness that basically means 'I don't really want to be intimate with you'.

I hope this answers your question. :-)
Posted by ankylosaur on December 1, 2011 at 2:45 PM · Report this
To GGG- If you are just exploring your own body with fingers and toys, then there shouldn't be any pain and not likely any bleeding. The hymen breaking (if it even happens) isn't a sudden thing that happens as soon as you put something in your vagina for the first time. It requires some force and intent, so just be gentle with yourself and you should be fine. Fingers should not hurt at all, and for most women neither should tampons. So start with a finger, and then 2, and eventually you can try a small toy and just keep working your way up. If you ever have any pain, just stop, back off, use more lube, and go more slowly. Using this approach will just stretch the hymen out and it may never noticeably break at all. When you started with anal play, I'm assuming you started exploring with something small and worked your way up slowly, right? Pushing anything much larger than a finger into a virgin asshole can be very painful and cause bleeding, just like the vagina, so people usually go slowly with this. I think that's the problem with a lot of painful and bloody first time sex experiences-an unexersized, unstretched out hole that's never had anything bigger than a tampon in it is suddenly having a full sized cock pushed into it. That's pretty painful. That would cause pain and tearing in any orifice. Most women start having sex before they've adequately explored their own bodies, and because of this we still have this myth that first time sex is almost always accompanied with pain and bleeding and a breaking hymen. I think that a lot of the pain and some of the bleeding has more to do with the vagina being too quickly stretched beyond it's comfort zone than from just the hymen tearing.

My own experience: I was a late bloomer to the whole sex and dating thing. I was extremely shy and insecure, so I couldn't approach guys I was interested in, and it didn't help that as a straight girl I ended up going to an all women's college. I am also butch and identified as transgendered, which also made things more complicated in the realm of trying to date men. Anyway, I was in my mid 20's before I lost my virginity in the traditional sense, so I had a lot of time to gain experience with my own body. I started exploring myself with my fingers in my pre-teen years and never had any pain at all with this. By the time I was in my late teens, I decided I wanted to know what something bigger felt like in there, but I was also afraid of breaking my hymen. I started exploring with things I could find around the house of gradually increasing size. I remember that I had this plastic travel toothbrush holder that I used as a dildo (it was the perfect shape). When I first tried using it, I started feeling a stretching-type pain when I tried inserting it, and it was maybe only half the diameter of an average penis, maybe a little more. I just took it really slow, stopped when it hurt at all, then tried again and was able to go a little farther. Once it went all the way in, it felt AWESOME and was my favorite "dildo". I can't imagine going straight from fingers only to trying to force something twice the diameter of that toothbrush holder in like most girls do when they lose their virginity. OUCH. Anyway, once I was in college, I was able to get real "toys" of varying sizes, and when I wanted to try a larger size, I did it gently. I never had anything beyond slight pain (which I was in control of, which is important), and no bleeding. My first boyfriend had a fairly large penis, and I experienced no pain or discomfort the first time we had sex. We just put it in slowly and it was fine. Occasionally, over the years, I would have a teeny-tiny bit of bleeding (like, a little pink on the tissue with my after-sex pee). It could have been that my hymen tore a tiny bit, since it was probably still there and just stretched out. If I haven't had sex in awhile, I'll still sometimes feel a bit of that stretching pain during the initial penetration (I have a friend who's said that that same thing happens to her, and she did have the painful hymen-breaking "first-time", so I don't think this is due to the potential intactness of my hymen).

So anyway, I guess my point is, you won't experience any pain that you aren't completely in control of. So just take it slow, use lube, and have fun with the exploration.
Posted by saramic on December 1, 2011 at 5:22 PM · Report this
@18, one solution, he can send her my way. 4 times a week sounds fiiiiiiiiiiiine by me :)
Posted by yea on December 1, 2011 at 6:04 PM · Report this
A lot of folks have hit the high points--it's not about how much sex they're having, where it falls on some frequency spectrum, whether he's oversexed. They do fall within the typical range, for whatever that's worth. The problem is his attitude. He whines, he gets cranky. That's unattractive behavior. While tempting to use avast's advice, probably ankylosaur's is the more effective method. Sit down with him and tell him. Have one of those "I feel . . ." conversations.

If the frequency of sex really is a deal-breaker for him, then you should know that as soon as possible. If his behavior about it doesn't improve, you may find out if that's a deal-breaker for you.
Posted by clashfan on December 1, 2011 at 8:22 PM · Report this
@160 Dirty D: More power to ya!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 1, 2011 at 9:41 PM · Report this
GGG: your hymen might already be broken without you even knowing it. For me it happened gradually, on a few occasions, and there was never any one, sudden, painful, bloody event like the myths would have us believe. If you're in control of what's happening through self-penetration, I think odds are high you'll be much more comfortable with the experience and everything will be fine.

36/Crinoline, 167/Clashfan and others, you are totally correct. He's being a brat about this, rather than trying to treat her fairly and work out a compromise that's good for both of them, and that's the real problem. Chances are that he'll be like this on other issues, too, not just the frequency of sex issue.

Posted by Suzy on December 1, 2011 at 10:30 PM · Report this
I listening to your podcast about how straight couples (Kardashin) use and abuse marriage rights and no one has a problem with that. well any way you know what you said, I'm a straight female and I just wan to say I loved what you said! I'm going to use your argument in future convos I hope you don't mind :-)
Posted by Ktroy85 on December 1, 2011 at 11:42 PM · Report this
@167 You're absolutely right in calling that "unattractive behavior". I tend to be the one with the higher libido in relationships, and, as such, realize that I can't always get what I want. But, if there was a scenario where I was with someone who wanted sex more often than I do, and they whined about it, I think I'd end up wanting LESS sex.

And for the people talking about the frequency of initiation: I can't say that I regularly initiate, even though sometimes I'd like to. Part of that is residual shyness, part the slight submissive tendency I have, and in part BECAUSE I have the higher libido and don't want to be turned down. My bf pretty much knows that if he initiates, I'm already game. Though I do give him a lot of credit for helping me become more assertive in bed, there are still things I'm not quite comfortable with.
Posted by KateRose on December 2, 2011 at 5:13 AM · Report this
Do you think BALLS is legit? Or maybe written by a kid at Reed trying to get Dan more credence in the red states?
Posted by Potz on December 2, 2011 at 5:30 AM · Report this
I was a walking hardon in my teens and 20s. I never found a woman whose libido matched mine. Then somewhere along the line things reversed. I'm nearly 40 now and it seems most of the women I date want to fuck all the time. No doubt there's an evolutionary function at work, but it's more fun to see it as the male libido exacting revenge on the female libido for all those years of jerking off. Alas, cruel life! :)
Posted by repete on December 2, 2011 at 7:06 AM · Report this
mydriasis 174



Isn't that implying that PIV isn't pleasurable for her? I guess what I'm trying to say is - I know Dan and all of you guys are saying that all that other stuff counts as sex. And it may well count as sex for her - but why even bother if it's not sex for him? Especially if she's seeing it as a chore. If I were in a situation (god fucking forbid) where I was with a guy who offered say oral because he wasn't up for sex all the time? I'd tell him to get out and not come back. I'm not saying oral isn't sex, but I don't enjoy it, it doesn't really get me off and it's deeply deeply unsatisfying. Maybe a guy (or girl) in their 20s doesn't want a sex life which is mainly comprised of consolation prizes.

I don't think someone at any age wants that, but especially someone who is at the stage in their life where they presumably have the most access to sexual partners.

I mean, it's like saying "hey I will only have sex with you x times per week BUT I will play golf with you as much as you want. What you're sexually unsatisfied?? But look at all the golf!!"
Posted by mydriasis on December 2, 2011 at 7:55 AM · Report this
mydriasis 175

"What 111 said. It isn't whether 4x a week PIV is a lot or a little on any sort of objective scale, if such a thing were possible. It's that, what with 4x a week PIV, plus blowjobs, plus handjobs, plus dropping her clothes on request so he can wank, Boyfriend has a lot of gall calling that "never.""

See above. If I were him I'd feel the same.

"She ought to treat him to about three weeks of "This is what 'never' REALLY looks like," to give him some perspective"

That's disgusting.
Posted by mydriasis on December 2, 2011 at 8:01 AM · Report this
@174 We're definitely going on the assumption that the boyfriend likes all those "consolation prizes". For someone like you, who pretty much just wants sex, none of the additional "fluff" those things wouldn't count as sex. For someone who does enjoy those things, there would be a different perspective.
I know I like PIV more than any other activity most of the time, but, if my bf gets me off over a dozen times, I'm certainly not of the opinion that it didn't count because his penis wasn't in me.
Conversely, on occasion, he'd prefer a bj to sex. And he's also completely satisfied with what we do even if he DOESN'T get off, so long as I do(unfortunately, a med he's on makes it difficult and sometimes seemingly impossible to get off).
Posted by KateRose on December 2, 2011 at 8:20 AM · Report this
mydriasis 177
I'm sure he likes them - you'd be hard pressed to find a guy who doesn't like head. But just like the women here saying "I like sex but not when I'm being pressured", he might like head but not when it's being offered as a replacement for what he actually wants.

Isn't that likely the case?
Posted by mydriasis on December 2, 2011 at 8:56 AM · Report this
mydriasis, I think you're probably right about what he wants (lots of PIV), and why he's not content with what she's offering.

Re your question @174, We don't just know what acts she loves, because she doesn't say. We hear several times about him getting off (through PIV, hand jobs, blow jobs, masturbation), but not once about her getting off. I just wish she were here to tell us more about what she enjoys. It might help us figure out what specific pleasure she's getting out of the relationship, that might motivate her to satisfy his desire for frequency.
Posted by EricaP on December 2, 2011 at 9:40 AM · Report this
Actually, I know a few guys who not only don't like head, but will get upset if someone tries to convince them to let them try. Not the point, though.

I definitely agree that could be the case. I'm certainly not arguing the point with you. I do believe that for some people it really is that big of a deal, others prefer to focus on different aspects.

For some people, nothing but PIV is perfect. I'm sort of in the same boat with you about receiving oral, I'd much rather have other things (difference is, I like it occasionally if it's been awhile). I know for me, personally, if PIV was all we did, I'd feel cheated in that respect, others feel cheated if they only get the other stuff. Takes all kinds, I guess.
Posted by KateRose on December 2, 2011 at 9:45 AM · Report this
@175: You are entitled to your own preferences about what constitutes sex and what doesn't. That does not invalidate the fact that whatever the specific acts that she performs may be, she is working her ass off for him, and he is mostly being a whiny ass in response.

If in fact all those other things don't count as sex to him -- we have not actually established that, but we can explore it as a hypothetical -- the best thing would be if they had a polite conversation where he might express his preferences, at which point she would be off the hook for all this stuff that he doesn't even enjoy. If, on the other hand, he does enjoy it, just not as much as PIV, he has no business characterizing that as "never." She is putting a lot of time and effort into this. Blowjobs don't exactly let you turn them on and walk away, like a dishwasher.

As far as my response being "disgusting" that is also an opinion you are entitled to. Obviously a polite conversation would be preferable, and if it worked there would be no reason to go there. But it's not like he has been being polite or appreciative himself leading up to that point. Sometimes a proverbial smack upside the head with a fish is not only necessary but richly deserved.

To be clear, I am not advocating 3 weeks of abstinence to teach him to be shut up and be content with 4X a week. I suggest it as a lesson in the difference between "never" and "daily or better with a lot of variety." Nor would I expect it to go on beyond where he got a clue and apologized profusely for being a dick. I just threw 3 weeks out there as a ballpark number after which pretty much anybody would feel sufficiently deprived that the clue stick finally fell and hit them. In his case I doubt it would take more than about 3 days.
Posted by avast2006 on December 2, 2011 at 12:01 PM · Report this
Roadflare 181
Why does everyone blame the girl on this one, like it's her fault that he isn't completely satisfied. And why does it not matter what she wants? As Erica P. pointed out, it really never discusses what she's getting, just him. She is trying the best she can it sounds like and he is being an ungrateful jerk about it. That's the issue. What about compromise for her? What about her as a person? There is more to a relationship than sex. If everytime they sit together, he gets horny and demands sex, it sounds like he is using her for more frequent sex. Complaining doesn't help, when she tries her best.

They should break up, maybe because their libidos don't match, but mostly because he is unappreciative. They break up, and we'll see how long it takes him to get laid again. What, is he going to masturbate 10 times a day? What is he like when he's not getting off from a girl all the time? Everybody has dry spells. I'm just saying, if he really cared about her, he would consider her point of view.
Posted by Roadflare on December 2, 2011 at 12:17 PM · Report this
@180: "she is working her ass off for him, and he is mostly being a whiny ass in response."

Well, she perceives herself as working her ass off for him, and she perceives him as being a whiny ass in response. I'd take it more seriously if we had both sides of the story here.
Posted by Old Crow on December 2, 2011 at 12:45 PM · Report this
Roadflare 183
@182 We very rarely get both sides of the story, your point is moot. We have to go off of what we have and it sounds very much like he is being an ass.
Posted by Roadflare on December 2, 2011 at 3:08 PM · Report this
I'm curious what kink Mrs BALLS found she enjoyed!
Posted by sleekweasel on December 2, 2011 at 3:53 PM · Report this

Jesus Christ on a jumping stick! 4 times a week of PiV is "too much," and her boyfriend should be "un-fucking-believably lucky to get that much sex in any other relationship" because she lets him fap?

This reads like something off of 4chan. Check your ovaries/balls, and your dignity at the desk please.

I've personally never had a complaint from partners in relationships who were on the receiving end multiple times each evening and morning 7 days a week. We were, thankfully, very compatible. Really enjoying a lot of sex (a lot) is not something everyone can handle, and this girl appears simply unable to match her partner's sexual drive--that is HER own fucking problem.

Your attempt to place her situation in a weird "OMG UR BOYFRIEND TUCH vaginanana HE'S SO LUCKY" perspective is ridiculous, and insulting to men who actually respect and really enjoy pleasing their girlfriend/wife without a single thought of bullshit middle-school sexual politic vagina commodity futures market tug-o-wars.

This is clearly a sexual mis-match, and it's up to them both to decide whether it's worth the trouble to stay together despite the mis-match.
Posted by xyzzyx on December 2, 2011 at 5:36 PM · Report this
echizen_kurage 186

Jesus Christ on a jumping stick! 4 times a week of PiV is "too much," and her boyfriend should be "un-fucking-believably lucky to get that much sex in any other relationship" because she lets him fap?

Holy deliberate misreadings, Batman! First off, nowhere in any of my comments do I say that vaginal intercourse four times a week is "too much." (To be clear, I definitely don't think it's too much; I just think that it's pretty darn respectable, if not exactly Guinness-worthy.) Also, according to MBIIH's letter, she does a lot more than "let him fap"; she gives him blowjobs and handjobs whenever he asks.

My point, which you appear to have missed, is simple: MBIIH's boyfriend is getting significantly more sex than the average man in a long-term heterosexual relationship. Other commenters have stated, with some justification, that where MBIIH's boyfriend stands relative to the overall male population has little bearing on his own degree of satisfaction. If he's getting more sex than most men and he's still horny, telling him that he's getting more sex than most men isn't going to make him any less horny.

To which I say: fair enough. But I maintain that, like all people who have discovered that their reality falls short of their ideal, MBIIH's boyfriend would be wise to consider whether he's realistically likely to do any better before he throws down his hand and asks for a redeal. Yes, I understand that this is an imperfect metaphor; finding a compatible partner is not a purely aleatory proposition (although I suspect there's a stronger element of chance involved than most people realize). And judging from all the people who have left comments saying that they routinely have awesome sex several times a day, maybe I'm underestimating the odds of MBIIH's boyfriend finding a partner whose sex drive matches his. To return to the poker metaphor, maybe he's only asking for two pairs instead of a full house. With this in mind, I will amend my original statement from "he would be un-fucking-believably lucky to get that much sex in any other relationship" to "he would be lucky to get that much sex in most other relationships." Better?

I've personally never had a complaint from partners in relationships who were on the receiving end multiple times each evening and morning 7 days a week. We were, thankfully, very compatible. Really enjoying a lot of sex (a lot) is not something everyone can handle, and this girl appears simply unable to match her partner's sexual drive--that is HER own fucking problem.

Why is it "HER own fucking problem"? We could just as easily say it's the boyfriend who's failing to match her sex drive -- the problem is simply one of excess rather than deficit. At the risk of reading too much into a single sentence, I get the feeling that you're hostile toward MBIIH for failing in her obvious female duty to be "on the receiving end multiple times each evening and morning 7 days a week" without complaining. And, by extension, you're hostile towards me, because I dared to take her part.

Your attempt to place her situation in a weird "OMG UR BOYFRIEND TUCH vaginanana HE'S SO LUCKY" perspective is ridiculous, and insulting to men who actually respect and really enjoy pleasing their girlfriend/wife without a single thought of bullshit middle-school sexual politic vagina commodity futures market tug-o-wars.

Your attempt to reduce my actual reading of her situation to "OMG UR BOYFRIEND TUCH vaginanana HE'S SO LUCKY" is equally ridiculous. As for your similarly ridiculous claim that my comment @18 is somehow "insulting" . . . well, as I suggested above, I suspect what you're actually outraged by is my (and MBIIH's, and Dan's) fundamental assumption that pussy isn't some kind of pleasure-dispensing ATM, open 24/7/365 - just stick your card in the slot and it'll give you whatever you want! It'll even say "thank you" afterwards!

On a less vitriolic note, you may "respect and really enjoy pleasing" your wife/girlfriend, but there's little indication from MBIIH's letter that her boyfriend does the same. (Obviously, we're only getting her side of the story, so cum grano salo and all that.) Yeah, she says that he's GGG and they have an awesome sex life, but it sounds like he's not particularly concerned with her pleasure when he pressures her for sex.

This is clearly a sexual mis-match, and it's up to them both to decide whether it's worth the trouble to stay together despite the mis-match.

Actually, I agree with you -- just with the proviso that the odds are probably better than even that if he decides to jump ship, he'll find himself just as mismatched, if not more so, in the next relationship. If suggesting that MBIIH's boyfriend should weigh the relationship he has not only against what he wants, but also against what he's likely to get somehow constitutes "bullshit middle-school sexual politic vagina commodity futures market tug-o-war," then guilty as charged.
Posted by echizen_kurage on December 2, 2011 at 7:48 PM · Report this
I agree: @111 for the WIN!!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 2, 2011 at 9:54 PM · Report this
No, 185 it is not "her problem" it's "their problem" if they're a couple. Like most problems, it needs to be solved by meeting in the middle.

Multiple partners in relationships...can't keep one together, huh? Not a big surprise.

As for "matching" what in the world are you talking about? People are individuals. They don't "match" all the time. It is not any one partner's responsibility to "match" the other; they have to compromise. Quantity doesn't equal quality.
Posted by GG1000 on December 2, 2011 at 10:24 PM · Report this
Balls should not have to hire an escort. I'd be glad to smack any Christian conservative in the nuts for free.
Posted by jklewissf on December 3, 2011 at 12:35 AM · Report this
I am so sorry that BALLS had to hire an escort to get what he so clearly deserves. I would be glad to smack any conservative christian in the nuts for free.
Posted by jklewissf on December 3, 2011 at 12:42 AM · Report this
@186: Thanks for the word 'aleatory.' I like it. (In the same spirit, it's 'cum grano salis.')

I think finding a partner of a matching sex drive is not a matter of randomness, provided that you prioritize that. You have to have priorities, and I think that being sexually compatible should be one of the top ones, if not the top one.
It's not hard to find someone who is ok with, say, daily PIV, if you make that a priority.

I think what 185 and I are responding to is this annoying attitude that Dan and others here have, which seems very similar to "you're lucky to get sex at all, so don't push it." Dan's gotten so many letters from people who have wasted years of their lives in unfulfilling relationships where they've settled, that you'd think he'd encourage people to try to find someone compatible, rather than support this whole stereotype that men are lucky just to get sex and shouldn't expect women to actually like sex. This is the last place I'd expect to hear "settle for an unfulfilling sex life because it could be even more unfulfilling."

I can't imagine having a working relationship with someone who couldn't have PIV more than four times a week. I'd feel frustrated and rejected and unloved, and she'd feel pestered and annoyed, and it would be difficult to remain civil. Just seems like a bad situation all around. The boyfriend in the letter may seem whiny or unpleasant, but it's really hard to remain good-natured all the time in that kind of situation; I can't say I really blame him there.

I think people are underestimating how unpleasant that situation may be for the guy, and how important it is to have someone who's not turning you down all the time, and how hard it is to get along with someone who is.
Posted by BlackRose on December 3, 2011 at 12:57 AM · Report this
echizen_kurage 192

God damn it, I knew that something looked wrong about "cum grano salo." Of course it's salis -- it's a fucking genitive, duh. Thanks for catching my idiot mistake; clearly I've been too long away from Latin. Mea maxima culpa.

I certainly don't buy into or have any wish to promote the ugly old myth that women "give" sex out of obligation or kindness and don't derive any real pleasure from it themselves.* And I do think that, whether or not the overall distribution of intensity of libido for females is entirely symmetrical with the overall distribution of intensity of libido for males (and I kind of suspect that it isn't) there is (a) a very substantial overlap between the two sexes (b) a lot of variability within each individual sex. All that being said, my offhand guess would be that the supply of sexually ravenous heterosexual women falls short of the demand (and, by the same token, the supply of sexually ravenous heterosexual men exceeds the demand). I won't speculate on the scope of the supply/demand mismatch, except to say that I don't think it's huge, but I do think that MBIIH's boyfriend would be working against something of a statistical uphill if he went off in search of greener pussy.

Generally speaking, I tend to be a cynic. My fundamental outlook on most things in life -- including, but hardly limited to, sex -- is not "follow every rainbow"; it's "just be happy you aren't starving to death in a gutter." Still, if MBIIH and her boyfriend aren't just failing to make one another as happy as they want to be, but are making each other actively unhappy -- a possibility that seems increasingly likely to me as this thread goes on -- then they're better off parting ways.

I'm not totally thrilled with your suggestion here and elsewhere that frustrated libido in some measure excuses treating one's partner poorly. Yes, people tend to behave unkindly when they're unhappy, but if your partner is making you so unhappy that you can't behave kindly, then it's your responsibility to realize that and end the relationship. I still don't know if MBIIH's boyfriend is likely to find a woman who has all the qualities that presumably attract him to his current girlfriend, plus a sex drive to match his own -- particularly given that he really does sound like a whiny little fucker -- but at this point I'm willing to concede that they might be fatally incompatible and better off without each other.

*On a side note, I don't think Dan buys into this myth either; I think he's simply trying to combat the equally ugly myth that heterosexual women "owe it" to their partners to be perpetually and unconditionally sexually accessible.
Posted by echizen_kurage on December 3, 2011 at 3:38 AM · Report this
193 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
194 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
Where do people get time for sex more than 4 times a week? Either they don't have a real job, or the sex they are having is really short and bad.
Posted by cockyballsup on December 3, 2011 at 6:00 AM · Report this
mydriasis 196
Yes! You sort of hit on part of what was bothering me. "Like ohhh you had to have the sex FOUR TIMES this week? Ohh.. tsk tsk, you poor dear. You must be exhausted by all that. The horrible unpleasant things we do for our men. (sigh)"


I would tend to disagree with you. If women here are allowed to say 'Oh I like sex, but not when I'm being pressured' then I think it's fair for someone who likes PIV to say 'I like oral, but not when it's being offered as a substitute for PIV." Like I said, it's not about those things not being enjoyable, it about wanting a sex life that isn't mostly about consolation prizes. Yes those things are probably better than nothing (if you put a gun to my head and put in me in a relationship like that I'd probably take them too) but that doesn't mean he should just shut up and be satisfied.

Oh and by the way, if he's being a whiny ass - so is she. This letter is the equivilant of "Daaaannn my boyfriend likes SEX too much. Tell him he's wrong and bad please?" (She asks Dan if he would characterize her boyfriends libido as "ridiculously" high. Because that's very sensitive and nice of her).

And yes, I do think using sex as a weapon is disgusting. If you're willing to do that to someone you have no business being with them. That's not to say that there aren't situations where periods without sex are reasonable. For example, if you have a fight with someone and legitimately do not want to have sex with them for a period of time - yes, okay, fine. But deliberately using withdrawal of sex to win an argument or make a point is totally disgusting in my books. I stand by that.

Especially because the point she'd be proving is on the whole "never" thing? Jesus fuck - it's called hyperbole. You're allowed to use it from time to time especially to express frustration. That's what it's there for. Besides, again she does it too . Do you really think her boyfriend wants to have sex "constantly".

And frankly, even if he does - can you blame him? If a person is starving, they want to eat constantly. It doesn't mean they're a gluttonous pig who would eat all day given that chance. It means they're hungry. That's what happens when someone barely gets a chance to eat.
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 6:09 AM · Report this
mydriasis 197
A quickie need not be bad.
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 6:12 AM · Report this
mydriasis 198
actually, cocky, let me put it to you this way.

Do you go to the gym?
Do you got the movies?
Do you go to bars or concerts?
Cooking classes?
Social outings?

People make time for the things that are important to them. I'm a student who's extremely busy (yes I have a job) and I pretty much have to choose between a social life and a sex life. I don't do any of the things on the above list.
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 6:21 AM · Report this
She probably puked because he had his hand on the back of her head and was slamming her gag reflex. She understandably hated it, and he for whatever reason liked it.
Posted by sherpa on December 3, 2011 at 6:35 AM · Report this
Mydriasis, how can anybody have a good sex life if they have no social life and don't exercise?
Posted by cockyballsup on December 3, 2011 at 8:27 AM · Report this
@192 "all the qualities that presumably attract him to his current girlfriend, plus a sex drive to match his own"

I think BlackRose's point is that people who want sex on the high side of average may have to prioritize sex drive over the other qualities they look for in a partner (beauty, charm, strange, top... ;-) Or pick their partners from the poly community, and then arrange schedules to get the sex they need from multiple partners.
Posted by EricaP on December 3, 2011 at 8:42 AM · Report this
mydriasis 202
I'm exaggerating on the no social life part. But I pass up a LOT in the way of social events because of school and also because I don't really drink and most people in my age bracket like to go to bars and etc. I have a very small/limited social life. Small group of close friends sort of thing. I don't see them as much as I would in a perfect world, especially around midterms.

Sex is exercise. You're saying you can't have a good sex life without going to the gym? I huuugely disagree.
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 8:45 AM · Report this
mydriasis 203

And by people, you mean men?
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 11:43 AM · Report this
No, not especially.
Posted by EricaP on December 3, 2011 at 11:53 AM · Report this
mydriasis 205
You don't think most men would prefer to have sex above the average amount?
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 12:02 PM · Report this
EricaP & mydriasis: I was going to jump into the fray, but you've already basically said what I was going to say.

Mydriasis: Yeah. Who has TIME for sex during midterms or finals, let alone a movie, other than seasoned party animals?
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 3, 2011 at 1:23 PM · Report this
mydriasis 207
Studying is more productive with breaks. Most people know that. So studying straight through for 6 hours will mean less info absorbed than say 5.5 with a half hour break in the middle.
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 3:13 PM · Report this
@205, I think if someone loves an activity more than most people do, and wants a partner to share it with, then that has to be part of the mate selection process. This holds true whether the activity is travel, gaming, historical reenactment, opera, Master/slave power exchange, or PIV sex.

@207 - sex as study aid, I love it!
Posted by EricaP on December 3, 2011 at 3:51 PM · Report this

"Multiple partners in relationships...can't keep one together, huh? Not a big surprise."

Well adjusted folks who live in big cities enjoy each others' company, and tend to move on to get schooling/jobs thousands of miles away. Problem?
Posted by xyzzyz on December 3, 2011 at 4:36 PM · Report this
mydriasis 210
I agree, but I think - as someone else pointed out - the "most men" and "most women" bellcurves are enough seperated that most women on high end can get away with it. I consider myself to have a pretty high sex drive and I've never been with a guy who couldn't match it.

Sex is a fantastic study aid. Helps you focus. :)
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 4:58 PM · Report this
@210, there are plenty of high libido women who have written to Dan about their low-libido husbands. Women who blog about their secret sex lives are also often in this situation. Prowling with Kat, for one example.
Posted by EricaP on December 3, 2011 at 5:12 PM · Report this
mydriasis 212
Plenty total and plenty proportionately are different things. I'm usually suspicious of that kind of thing off the bat though. Makes me wonder if something fishy is going on.

That's pretty much my worst nightmare. I could never cheat. If I somehow ended up with a man like that one day I would drop him in two seconds.

Yeah I read one blog post and it pretty much made me want to pull a Sylvia Plath in the kitchen.
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 5:18 PM · Report this
Sex isn't really all that much exercise - people like to fool themselves with this myth. You don't need to go to the gym, but you do need more exercise than sex. Maybe you can get away with it for now but in the long run being unfit will be detrimental to the quality of your sex life.

As for me, most of the gay guys I know tend to approach sex as an art form; in particular a very visual one, and we tend to need to feel we look hot and our partner looks hot for the sex to be good, so exercise is pretty much essential to our sex life. Libido tends to go out the window once you start feeling bad about the feel or the shape of your body. Also, in my experience (admittedly limited by my own tastes in what I seek out) most gay guys like having long-lasting sex (which is more intense) and don't see that much point in quickies, which limits the number of times a week one really has time for it. Maybe straight couples feel differently about these things.
Posted by cockyballsup on December 3, 2011 at 5:48 PM · Report this
mydriasis 214

I love my body.
It looks the way I want it to and I have no interest in losing fat (I would look anorexic if I lost weight) or gaining muscle (I have enough tone) which is what going to the gym would accomplish.
But I'm female and blessed with a fast metabolism. If I were a man it might be a different story.

I'm on board with the visual thing, but that energy goes more into lingerie/etc than the gym. Also, being the receptive partner it's generally the man in the equation that does the heavy lifting sex-wise so I haven't had much problem getting tired or hitting a wall (erm... metaphorically). I think short sex can for sure be intense, but I know what you mean, you don't get to that trancelike place. I like a mixture, but if I'm getting off, I'm getting off and I can do that quickly so why not?

I don't know how other straight couples feel but that's my two cents.
Posted by mydriasis on December 3, 2011 at 6:25 PM · Report this
@212: You and I seem to read off the same page about cheating. I couldn't do that, either.
And I agree with EricaP: I love the idea of sex as a study aid!
That could work off a lot of tension.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 3, 2011 at 6:25 PM · Report this
echizen_kurage 216

See, that's just so odd to me. Intellectually, I understand perfectly well that my priorities don't represent some universal human norm, but on an emotional level, the notion that a person seeking a partner would prioritize sex drive over personality and looks is just incredibly . . . alien. Given a choice between (a) someone whom I found more attractive and interesting, but who wanted sex only half as much as I did and (b) someone whom I found less attractive and interesting, but who wanted sex exactly as much as I did, I'd absolutely choose (a) and make up the difference with masturbation. (I'm assuming here that the difference between attractiveness and interestingness is significant but not massive -- i.e., the higher-sexed partner would still be moderately attractive/interesting, just appreciably less so than the lower-sexed partner. I'm also assuming that there would be no difference in the quality of sex, just the quantity.)

At a certain point, mismatched sex drives would become a deal-breaker for me -- offhand, I'd say that once a week would be the lower limit of acceptability for me. But I just can't imagine breaking up with somebody simply because I had to get myself off some of the time. To me, that would be like breaking up with somebody because we didn't always take turns cooking each other wonderful homemade dinners and sitting down to a nice meal together every single night of the week. Some nights you just have to make yourself a sandwich, you know? Although I guess for some people, masturbation is less like a sandwich, and more like a single crouton. Which is just . . . huh.

(Again, I'm not saying anybody is bad or wrong for having different relationship priorities than I do; I'm just marveling at the incredibly diverse priorities that people have.)
Posted by echizen_kurage on December 3, 2011 at 9:50 PM · Report this
@201: I like quarky people.

@210, 212: It's not solely about sex drive. A hetero woman who has a high sex drive and cares about sex probably needs to prioritize not just having a high sex drive in her partners, but also sexual creativity, similar preferences, being GGG, and so on.

@216: I would without any hesitation choose (b), assuming I had to be monogamous with one of them. As I've said before, for me masturbation is like being hungry and looking at a picture of really delicious food. It's not even in the same category as partnersex.

Choosing (a) is incredibly alien to me. Aside from not getting enough partnersex, it would cause all sorts of problems in the relationship. I'd be resentful and feel unloved and taken advantage of. She'd feel constantly pressured. It would just be emotionally painful and lead to a lot of fighting.
Posted by BlackRose on December 4, 2011 at 3:28 AM · Report this
mydriasis 218

Having a sex drive doesn't necessarily mean that the person is also kinky. But you're right, they usually go hand in hand. I'm pretty GGG (in my mind) but I'm happy with fairly vanilla sex so long as it's with someone attractive and it's good. I usually use food as an analogy. Some people like things that are exotic or interesting or fancy. Some people are fine with simple meals as long as they're made with high quality ingredients. A really amazing steak doesn't need much, you know?

But that's me, and I'm definitely weird in that way, I'll admit it. Most high sex drive women are more along the lines of being kinky. Don't get me wrong, I went through the adventurous phase, but nothing stuck.

Your masturbation analogy is DEAD ON. I could not agree with you any more than I already do.

I agree. I would never choose a relationship with someone who lacked other qualities because of their sex drive. I don't need to. If I'm not attracted to someone, I wouldn't want to have sex with them all the time. Who would?

But I will admit that maybe other qualities might take a back seat, but they're icing qualities, they're sprinkle qualities, they're not dealbreakers.
Posted by mydriasis on December 4, 2011 at 6:20 AM · Report this

Why are you constantly misrepresenting yourself? Statements like "I'm happy with fairly vanilla sex so long as it's with someone attractive and it's good," evoke the impression that you are still in the market. Fact is, you've become devout monogamist, and any playing around is out of the picture.

Posted by Hunter78 on December 4, 2011 at 7:41 AM · Report this
I regret the word constantly.
Posted by Hunter78 on December 4, 2011 at 7:44 AM · Report this
You people criticizing Dan for telling the GGG Horndog Boyfriend he has it good have probably never been married.

4 blissful times a week before marriage equals 1-2 times per month after about a year of marriage.

Gee, I wonder what 4 exasperated, 'accommodating' times per week before marriage equals after? Twice a year maybe with a go jack off to porn the rest of the time? If they stay together the putz will learn the meaning of the word "never" and you can take that to the bank.

For our lesbian friend, she is into BDSM but afraid to break her hyman? This smells to me like some aversion to cock. She sounds like a man-hating lesbian to the point she can't even engage in role play with her girlfriends that even resembles M-F traditional intercourse.

Finally, since I have pissed off the lesbians, let me pis off the gay men and answer for our conservative religious friend. Many, perhaps most Conservatives are fine with laws permitting civil unions and conferring THE SAME RIGHTS and protections as marriage. The objection to changing the definition of the word 'marriage' is mostly semantics. Strangely, most gays have hooted down these suggestions. Could it just be there is another agenda at work besides granting gay men the stability of a legally supported long-term relationship? Conservatives see these attacks on tried and tested social institutions by gays as a backdoor (sorry, had to say it) assault on our culture. Not judging, just educating.
Posted by Professor on December 4, 2011 at 9:36 AM · Report this
nocutename 222
Professor, I'm sorry you had such an unhappy marriage.
Posted by nocutename on December 4, 2011 at 9:53 AM · Report this
223 for more info
Posted by psole on December 4, 2011 at 2:02 PM · Report this
224 for more info
Posted by psole on December 4, 2011 at 2:04 PM · Report this
@221, what makes "culture" so sacred that we should adapt to it rather than adapting it to us? Are you letting "culture" be the boss of you? Civil marriage is just that - civil; in other words, a legal institution, not a religious or sacred one, and civil or cultural institutions must serve the needs of the people, including gay people, not the other way around. A "culture" that marginalizes a group of people is bad and must be changed. Would you defend a person who was in favor of miscegenation laws? After all, those were also deeply embedded in cultural attitudes (that still very much persist, by the way).
Posted by cockyballsup on December 4, 2011 at 3:42 PM · Report this
Prof, from my own encounters with conservatives, you're not right. Most of them are not OK with equal rights even via civil unions.
Posted by ankylosaur on December 4, 2011 at 9:28 PM · Report this
Oh, and I'm married, and believe me: 4 times per week is not enough. To us it's more like once per day, twice on weekends and holidays. :-)
Posted by ankylosaur on December 4, 2011 at 9:34 PM · Report this
echizen_kurage 228
@ BlackRose, mydriasis:

Huh, different strokes for different folks, I guess. Me, I love masturbating. (The things one admits in the Savage Love comments section . . . ) It can't replace all the best parts of partner sex -- kissing, feeling naked skin against your own, giving somebody else pleasure, playing around with power dynamics -- but it's a quick, easy, reliable way to make my body feel realllly good.
Posted by echizen_kurage on December 4, 2011 at 10:04 PM · Report this
@218: Hmm? No, I wasn't talking about being kinky... I just meant that compatibility is about more than just drive. Even if you have two people with the same high sex drive, one might love doggy style and the other hate it, one might love dirty talk and the other hate it, one might be interested in age play and the other refuse to date someone with any interest in age play, and so on.

So, a high sex-drive woman may easily be able to find a high sex-drive man, but finding one who is sexually compatible and good in bed might be more difficult and require prioritizing sex over other things you want in a partner.
Posted by BlackRose on December 5, 2011 at 12:23 AM · Report this
I take for granted that Professor is trolling, but he (she?) does bring up an interesting point. If there is any truth to the idea that frequency of sex goes down after marriage, what causes it?

The passage of time in that many people's sexual desires go down with the ebbing hormones of age?

Sleeping with the same person over time?
Seeing that same person over time in so many non-sexual situations like doing housework or working on the computer?

Or something about commitment?
Posted by Crinoline on December 5, 2011 at 6:32 AM · Report this
All of the above, plus children.
Children =
people who physically get in the way;
a new, non-sexy role for the wife;
preceded by a period of extreme body change;
accompanied by a period of lack of sleep;
Posted by EricaP on December 5, 2011 at 8:18 AM · Report this
I also disagree that most GOPs support equal civil unions. Whether "many" do is not informative. Are 1000 Republicans "many"?
Posted by Hunter78 on December 5, 2011 at 9:29 AM · Report this
I can understand what the Professor is going through. When my gf and I were dating we were doing it almost daily with anal as least once a month. Now that we are married it's maybe once a week and we've done anal once in 6 years.

How do you test for libido compatibility if it changes after marriage.

Btw, we do not have kids.
Posted by b651 on December 5, 2011 at 10:18 AM · Report this
@ 211. That's true. I think what happens is that certain couples get together and marry, and then have no idea enough yet, through life experience, to know to be around a partner who wants it as much as they do, or at least, in similar-enough measure.

I've always found emotional connectedness to a partner to be the most sexual thing, the most fulfilling thing: being able to feel it enough to be comfortable to engage in a new thing or two between the two of you..

It takes all kinds, I suppose. You have to wanna boink the one you're married to, though. Marrying your best friend who is also the best fuck in the world, too. THAT'S what it's about! Some settle for less. Some have no choice to. Some have no choice to not settle for less, somehow.. It takes all kinds. Just know what your actual kindly taste is in what you like in life. If more people did, they wouldn't wind up so much in sexually-loveless marriages and relationships. I'm 42: I'm not wasting Any time on a connection that doesn't mean shit, hasn't withstood the test of time or brings no genuine cool and joy to the picture. I get to thinking no one else should, either.. Everyone has their own path..

Posted by Sleepy at 1:22 PM EST on December 5, 2011 at 10:23 AM · Report this
Cherry Pirate 235
BALLS made me well up , actually. I was an exchristian for years, but I never really got out from those views on sexuality, even though I thought I had, until I found your column. Now? Well now my g/f pegs like a master amongst several other things.
Posted by Cherry Pirate on December 5, 2011 at 10:27 AM · Report this
@233 - what does your wife enjoy, sexually? Can you open up a conversation about what you each like, and explain that you would like to reboot your sex life, to make it more fun for both of you, and not feel like another chore she is supposed to do?
Posted by EricaP on December 5, 2011 at 10:37 AM · Report this
mydriasis 237

Oh - hm! Yes, I suppose you have a point there. But wouldn't that be just as true in relationships where sex is a low priority? I mean, if you're already stuggling to keep up with your partners libido, wouldn't it be even HARDER if they want to do things you're not really into?
Posted by mydriasis on December 5, 2011 at 12:00 PM · Report this
@236, I know she likes riding me (I love it too!). I've tried talking about it but it only makes me more frustrated. Based on our last conversation, no woman likes oral or anal either though we used to do plenty of both.
Posted by b651 on December 5, 2011 at 12:00 PM · Report this
@238 - How old is she, and are you her first sexual partner? Does she masturbate at all? Will she tell you what she thinks about when she masturbates? Does she have a vibrator, that maybe she could use during sex with you? Does she enjoy it when you go down on her?

When women use sex to move the relationship forward, sometimes they forget to focus on their own sexual pleasure. I would start by trying to refocus on her orgasms (by whatever means she enjoys to get to orgasm).

During a calm conversation sometime, you may also want to explain to her how her rejections make you feel bad. If none of that works, you may need to tell her that you love her, but you need more sexual connection -- something has to change or the marriage will collapse.
Posted by EricaP on December 5, 2011 at 1:36 PM · Report this
@239 - In her 40s, I'm in my 30s. We are both pretty experienced before we met. She has toys, I've suggested that we used then before with no response. I've asked her is she wanted to use one on me. She used to play with herself, I don't know if she still does. I've asked her if I could watch sometime and she said no. When I'm in the mood to go down I get turned away. Her favorite way to get there is by riding, which she does, every time. She always comes first although sometimes I come at the same time she does. Only certain positions are allowed and only in the bedroom. This is in complete contrast to when we were dating. Oh, guess I'm doomed to a Fleshbot.
Posted by b651 on December 5, 2011 at 3:27 PM · Report this
@240 - you have no kids, you're young, your wife is refusing real intimacy (sharing what turns each of you on, being open to trying new things)... Why are you unwilling to consider leaving her?
Posted by EricaP on December 5, 2011 at 4:34 PM · Report this
230, 231-- An answer to my own question. I'd guess that a big part of the frequency of sex going down after marriage has to do with the knowledge that it will always be available later. I thought of this today while at the library browsing for entertainment fiction. I have a house full of books I haven't read. I was reaching for something and wondered if I had it at home. I thought of how I like library books because I have 3 weeks to read them. The due date helps. With the books at home, I can read them any time so too often I don't.

That's a wild comparison for sex, but there might be something to it. When dating, sex is special, something you might not be able to do later. You don't know where the relationship is heading so you get it in while you can. Once married, you can do it now, or you can do it later. The temptation to put it off becomes ingrained.

For 240-- If she doesn't view the (non) frequency of sex as a problem, she has no reason to fix it. I'd suggest that you first tell her that you're unhappy. Then get her to her GYN as quick as you can. If she's in her 40s, her hormones may be dropping naturally as she enters peri-menopause. (She's in her 40s. There's a much bigger difference between 41, 45, and 49 than there is between 31, 35, and 39. Which is it?) It could be happening so slowly that she doesn't realize how that's affecting her desire.

I can't say from here, but in this case, I'd look for a physical-medical explanation/solution first and mental-medical explanation/solution only when the former is exhausted.
Posted by Crinoline on December 5, 2011 at 4:44 PM · Report this
I suspect that when a lot of people become more familiar with someone, they lose attraction. New shiny things are exciting. And someone who only has or wants sex when he/she's feeling the intense attraction butterflies will be much more likely to reduce the frequency over time.
Posted by BlackRose on December 5, 2011 at 6:45 PM · Report this
240: From here it appears that roles you have fallen into are that your wife is the one who sets terms unilaterally, while you are the one who makes suggestions, accommodates, or works around the situation, but you have no power.

You need to decide whether this is important enough to walk away from the marriage over. If it is important enough, tell her that this is a partnership, and you are done being the junior partner. That things need to change such that your needs are taken care of with equal importance to hers, or you will leave.

As #242 says, if it isn't a problem to her currently, then she has no incentive to change. Right now everything is just the way she likes it. Why would she want to change? It has to become a problem to her. Hopefully the prospect of you divorcing her will be seen as enough of a problem to get her up off her comfortable throne.

If it isn't important enough to follow through on that, then resign yourself to accepting that whatever she says goes.
Posted by avast2006 on December 5, 2011 at 7:28 PM · Report this
mydriasis 245
avast, again your approach to relationships somewhat disturbs me.

"As #242 says, if it isn't a problem to her currently, then she has no incentive to change. Right now everything is just the way she likes it. Why would she want to change? It has to become a problem to her. Hopefully the prospect of you divorcing her will be seen as enough of a problem to get her up off her comfortable throne. "

Again, suggesting punishment/threats/enforcement in a relationship. Do you see that as healthy? What about empathy? If the only way that she'll care is if she's threatened than the relationship has deeper problems. She should care if he has a problem, she should care because she loves him. That's how relationships work. Not based on blackmail, ultimatums and threats.

But whatever, that's just my opinion.
Posted by mydriasis on December 5, 2011 at 8:10 PM · Report this
@231 EricaP: You just listed many reasons why I chose to remain childless.
Plus, I had unshakable beliefs of being a shitty mom, compared to my amazingly selfless incredible mother.

Posted by auntie grizelda on December 5, 2011 at 8:26 PM · Report this
@245: That's the ideal, but real life seldom works out so nicely. She doesn't care. And 240 seems very passive about the whole thing, so it's possible she doesn't realize the full extent of the problem. It's also possible that because 240 is so passive, she sees him as weak and stopped caring for and loving him for that reason, and the love will return once he stands up for himself.

Don't you think that you can't let people mistreat you, and that you have to disincentivize them from doing so? A lot of times people in LTRs take each other for granted, and it's important to set up personal boundaries (which is a nicer way of thinking of threats or enforcement).
Posted by BlackRose on December 5, 2011 at 8:28 PM · Report this
245: Of course she SHOULD care. Did you read the comments to which I'm responding? He has already tried the reasonable approach. He talks to her. He makes suggestions, he asks questions, et cetera. His suggestions either get no response whatsoever, or get shot down. Things get done the way she likes it, period.

I'm not suggesting "punishment" or "threats", I'm suggesting that he has a right to get his needs met. Surely you don't disagree with that premise? If she won't meet them then he should get them met somewhere else. But he also owes it to the relationship to give her fair notice that he has reached his limits, to give her a chance to reevaluate the fact that she has been being lazy in meeting him halfway. Or would you prefer that he simply serve papers?
Posted by avast2006 on December 5, 2011 at 8:33 PM · Report this
@237: True, it's probably easier for a hetero woman with a high sex drive to find someone compatible, but at the same time having a sex drive means you're more likely to care about and value sex. A person with a low drive might be less likely to think of sexual compatibility as important in choosing a partner, even though you're correct that such an incompatibility is only going to make the sex drive mismatch worse later on. My point was responding to 205 and 208, where we were talking about prioritizing sexual compatibility over other things at the beginning, where you're choosing who to date.

Because I have a high sex drive, sex is one of my values, right up there with love and happiness and good conversations and all that good stuff. So I'm more likely to want to prioritize it, seek out someone who feels similarly, and value compatibility in that area above other areas. A hetero woman with a low drive probably wouldn't be as likely to do that, and one with a high drive might be much more picky about compatibility because sex is so much more important to her.
Posted by BlackRose on December 5, 2011 at 9:10 PM · Report this
I like Lucy's presence on the show. I've been so busy that I got far behind on my podcasts and I'm listening to about 5 in a row. It's shocking to hear the negative comments from people. I believe those people have a problem with change but it's refreshing to have things tossed around a bit. I wish I were at the airport in Queens when Lucy got home.
Posted by lumberjackmac on December 5, 2011 at 9:29 PM · Report this
@240(b51), mydriasis, avast, BlackRose, it's an interesting conversation you're having. I'll add only one comment: it's not clear to me why the woman in question is not responding or empathisizing with her partner's lack of satisfaction with their sexual life. When he said he brought the topic up but was refused, I wondered whether she was 'shy' about sex; but what he said about how frequent and varied sex was before suggests that it's not the case she considers sex a shameful topic per se (I assume that, before, in their 'dating' phase, she not only had more and more varied sex with him, but also talked about it more freely).

So indeed it has to be changes in the libido. And that may be something she's ashamed to talk about. You see, you are (especiallly avast) suggesting that she's just being mean: since I don't feel I have a problem, I, the High Queen, don't think there's anything I should do. I suggest she may be in some sort of denial: she feels that something has changed (her level of desire, either in general or for him in particular, has dwindled), feels guilty about it at some level, and, as people often do with things they feel guilty about, simply avoids and denies the problem to herself and to him. Because it's always less hurtful to pretend that nothing is happening, when you think (correctly or not) that it's "your fault."

Maybe if these feelings are addressed in a converation, she might be willing to talk calmly about the problem and face it as something that they might still solve as a couple, i.e. as a team of two who do really care about each other's well-being?
Posted by ankylosaur on December 6, 2011 at 3:43 AM · Report this
@242(Crinoline), you may be onto something there: what looks like a sure thing also looks like something that will be there later, so I can postpone it now and do something else instead.

At least in my experience, that is especially strong when there are other distractions, like a challenging/interesting work (due to my research, I am sometimes off to South America for months at a time, depending on which project I'm working on), or, especially, children. All EricaP said about children is true.

To my wife and me, it was important to keep the sexual connection going despite the distractions that took energy away from it. It did help, for instance, that the kinks we shared could sometimes be used to sexually energize us even when other things were going on. Even when we were taking care of our daughter, as she played with cubes on the floor or crawled around, I could massage her shoulders in a special way that slightly arouses her and makes her giggle that special I-know-what-you're-thinking-about giggle that makes her feel desired; or she could play with my kinks (say, the submissive one by discreetly offering me her hand to kiss; or the cuckold one by saying something indirect that suggests she's having an affair, and then smiling and raising her eyebrow in that special way that sends butterflies up and down my body). Granted, this is not sex, especially not if it has to stop there, because the daughter is in the room, and we're taking care of her, and in a few minutes one of us has to prepare her baby food and vitamins or put her in a stroller for a walk or change her diapers or... or... or... But still, these little actions that mean there is sexual energy flowing between us -- we share a little secret, I desire you, you desire me, wink-wink -- keep the sexual/fantasy part of our minds working in the background even as we go about the business of taking care of our daughter. Later on, when we finally do get an opportunity of having sex, things feel better -- even if we only have time for a quickie, it feels like it had started several hours before already.

Again, it's not the same thing as actually having the entire day for yourself. But it helps. Especially because of the team work feeling (something that @240(b51) above, alas, is not having): sex does feel like this thing we both care about, and if we can't get to it because of external circumstances (our beloved daughter), then darn it, but we still see in each other's eyes that we want it.

I guess feeling desired is important, even to a man, and can to some extent keep the sex thing going even when you don't have much time for actual sex.
Posted by ankylosaur on December 6, 2011 at 4:10 AM · Report this
nocutename 253
Ankylosaur, you nailed it when you wrote:
"I guess feeling desired is important, even to a man, and can to some extent keep the sex thing going even when you don't have much time for actual sex."

THIS is what is so often missing in long-term relationships, after a while. The phrase "taken for granted" is an attempt to address it, but it's used as a catch-all for so many other things that the sexual element, the link to expressed desire, gets dropped out of the explicit meaning.
Posted by nocutename on December 6, 2011 at 6:40 AM · Report this
mydriasis 254

Thank you for that. That is pretty much exactly what I would have said (except more eloquently).

Ah that's where we got tripped up. The difference between what happens and what should happen. You're right, I think people with low sex drives probably don't factor in sexual things when picking who to date. Which is a shame because I think it's almost more important for them in a sense, for the reason you mentioned.

I guess I just balk at the word "prioritize". Do I prioritize it over music preference? Yes, sure. But I don't prioritize it over important things (like looks, compatibility, shared values). In a partner I want all the important things. Without them, someone isn't an option. If that makes sense.

I don't know about other people but I don't have a ranked-by-importance-list of the traits I want. I have a list of things that must be there and then a couple "likes" that would be nice to have. Sex is on the first list, and a low sex drive woman might put it in the second list. But the situation that Erica suggested where one may have to choose between an average looking man with an average sex drive and a gorgeous man with a low sex drive. I'd pick neither. In my experience it's been worth it to wait for what I want.
Posted by mydriasis on December 6, 2011 at 6:53 AM · Report this
Dudeman Someguy 255
Just want to say thank you. Keep the thoughts rolling please.
Posted by Dudeman Someguy on December 6, 2011 at 6:55 AM · Report this
233,238, 240, and the whole discussion-- I'm certainly not in b651's wife's situation, but I know enough about insecurity to think I understand her a little.

I realize it's not the same thing, but when I was in my 20's, I was so insecure about not coming that I couldn't talk about it-- to anyone, not the guy I was sleeping with, not my best friends, certainly not a doctor or therapist. I was insecure about sexual performance. I was just sure I was doing something wrong though the men I was sleeping with were enthusiastic enough. When there was a break-up, deep down I assumed it was because I was inadequate in bed. I never talked to anyone about that either. I turned some dryness and first-time jitters into a whole complex. I was insecure when I wasn't attracted to a man I thought I "should" be attracted to. I blamed myself and lectured myself about how he fit the physical type I'd told myself I liked and was nice and smart and said all the right things. That was the one I was finally able to talk about a little. The others took me years before I could even acknowledge to myself much less articulate in words to others.

So my situation isn't anything like b651's wife's except that I suspect there's something very deep in her that she perceives as so horrible that she can't admit it even to herself. In the light of day, it's probably nowhere close to horrible and probably fairly common, but she doesn't know that. She does what anyone would in her situation. She clams up. She brushes off her husband's questions about what she would like because she doesn't know. She doesn't want to talk about it because she doesn't want to talk about it. She doesn't know why she doesn't enjoy the things she used to enjoy either. It sounds like she's hurting and doing the best she can by avoiding the problem or pretending there isn't one. Except it's deeper than that. The way I said it, she acknowledges a problem in her own mind and is pretending for her husband. I'd guess she's so upset and weirded out about her lack of desire that she doesn't acknowledge it even to herself. Or maybe I'm just projecting.

(It reminds me of the futility of asking a teenager why he didn't do his homework. Chances are that if there is a reason, he doesn't know what it is.)

This is why I recommend an intervention. Many people assume that an intervention is just confrontation, but the idea also encompasses a plan in place to solve the problem. It's not just telling her that he's unhappy enough to consider a divorce. It's telling her that he's unhappy and wants to do whatever it takes to heal the situation and here's an appointment with a gynecologist and a therapist that they can go to together or each go alone because he's committed to making things better including considering that he might be contributing to the unhappiness and is willing to change.

I'd round up the usual suspects: menopause, hormonal birth control, depression, medicines used to treat depression, symptoms or medical conditions that sometimes are associated with sex like an increased likelihood of urinary tract infections or anal bleeding. (If you're embarrassed about liking anal sex, imagine going to a doctor and explaining about a little blood. Then imagine that the blood has nothing to with anal sex and a colonoscopy is in order.)

But consider that it could be anything. B651 doesn't say anything about his own physical condition. Maybe she's not as turned on by him as he's gotten older and is embarrassed by that. The list goes on and on.
Posted by Crinoline on December 6, 2011 at 7:08 AM · Report this
@256(Crinoline), yes, that's what I was thinking (@251); she's ashamed of something and doesn't want to talk about it because it's always less hurtful to not talk, to pretend there isn't anything to talk about, especially if you think it's "your fault", that "you shouldn't be like that," etc.

So, paradoxically, precisely because you don't want to discuss that which hurts, you hurt. And you hurt others (in this case b651). Aren't humans fascinating? :-)

I thought an intervention meant several people together talking to the target person, no? Wouldn't it be simpler for b651 and his wife to have an open-heart conversation, where both try to empathize with each other? Where he says he understands she may feel insecure or guilty about something that is affecting her libido, but that he is ready to accept it because he loves her, and whatever it is they can assess it together as a team, we're on the same boat, I don't just want to satisfy myself, I want us to work better together as a couple, etc. etc.?
Posted by ankylosaur on December 6, 2011 at 10:07 AM · Report this
@everyone that has commented on my postings. Thank you for your response and feedback. This has been very helpful and informative. Dan won't be getting a letter for me, please take that as a compliment.

The "no power" comment is spot on. I am a people pleaser. My wife and I have talked about how this is a pro and a con. I am passive except for issues that I have a passion for (biking, science). Otherwise I prefer to go with the flow. I am very passive in bed until she comes (not complaining since I love it when she rides me) and then I want full control. Sometimes I get this, sometimes I get laughed at. For example, I wanted to do doggystyle but then got laughed at because I cannot find the hole covered by bush. Why not offer some help in getting me in there?

I love my wife. When I asked her to marry me I wanted a life long commitment with her. Our sex life has changed dramatically after marriage. I think the book analogy is a great example of what I am going through. I've realized that being GGG can also mean accepting less action. I love my wife and have no complaints except for this area.

I will try talking to her again. She is amazing in the sack. She has done things with her hands, mouth, front and back that have made me explode without me doing anything. No women before has been able to do this. I give positive statements and encouragement while we are doing things but do not receive any feedback. The comment about "feeling desired is important" is spot on. I feel taken for granted. She rides, comes, then does the bare minimum for me to come.

My first wife was a CPOS and it was very painful experience. I will not be CPOS and disrespect my wife. As for leaving her, I do not think this is enough to warrant a divorce. Also, divorce is very expensive, at least $10K in attorney fees plus losing at least 60% of my assets. It is not worth it although I think marriage should have a "get out of jail free" card.

As I have gotten older I have gained weight. So has she, I'm not complaining about her weight gain which is more than mine. F*ck, I just want to be inside her more.

Final note, if you see a guy purchasing PIT toys at an adult shop please do not judge. The guy is very lonely or trying to save his marriage. Or Both.

Thank you again for your response and feedback. It has been very helpful.
Posted by b651 on December 6, 2011 at 10:24 AM · Report this
@253(nocutename), indeed. And the little petty problems of everyday life tend to erode this "sexual connection" between partners ('what? you forgot to buy bread? so how're gonna make a sandwich for our daughter to take to school tomorrow? now, in this cold night, I have to take the car and drive all the way to that avondwinkel (shop open after 8pm) to buy bread for tomorrow! and it's all your fault!'). This kind of thing tends to make you see your partner as a little bit of an enemy ('s/he could have remembered to buy bread! it was his/her turn, not mine!'), and, if it adds up to some sort of pattern, ends up with people blaming each other in an extraordinarily sexiness-killing kind of way.

I remember Dan once expressing exasperation at the fact that his husband Terry apparently couldn't learn to put the mayonnaise back in the refrigerator. That's also one of those daily-routine sexiness-killing things. Dan learned to accept that as part of the 'price of admission', and part of learning how not to see your spouse as an enemy is doing exactly that.

One often has to make a conscious effort to rise above that; to remember that the same person who forgot to buy bread or didn't put the mayonnaise back in the refrigerator is also the one who has the sexiest eyebrow-raising reflex and who has that little soft spot between her breasts that feels sooo good to kiss... that these two people are not in contradiction to each other. It's not as if one of them were a cover, a thin vein for the other.

One of the surprising things in partnered life to me was that doing that does not come automatically, that all the love you feel somehow doesn't make the erosive power of everyday life any less erosive, and that you do have to make conscious efforts to keep the sex thing going.

Posted by ankylosaur on December 6, 2011 at 10:25 AM · Report this
@259 - yes, but when we often have an undertone of sexual fun (as you described so well @252), then it doesn't require much "conscious effort" to keep it going. We have a familiar sexy vocabulary (in body language more than actual language) to defuse little flare-ups of irritation quickly, and to turn a fight into hot sex.

On the other hand, I worry that maybe in the future we'll find these sexy routines too routine...

@258 I'm glad you've found a lot of useful advice in these comments. Personally, I can highly recommend David Schnarch's book Passionate Marriage. It helped us understand and talk about insecurities we were still carrying from our adolescence (as Crinoline laid out so well @256).
Posted by EricaP on December 6, 2011 at 10:47 AM · Report this
@256, Crinoline, I wonder if you could talk more about what has worked well in fighting your insecurities about orgasms.

I spent my adolescence thinking I wasn't pretty enough to attract male interest; then in my twenties I figured out how to act sexy and be attractive that way.

In my 40s, dating again, I've found that I have the sexy thing down, so I can get men into bed. But the fact that I am good at looking sexy, and happy to get them off, isn't enough for a long-term sexual connection. Many guys are also looking for that sense of power that comes from giving intense pleasure to their partner. And here my body is letting me down, so much that I almost feel as bad as I did in adolescence, except that the stakes are lower because I'm trying to add spice to a happy life, not worrying that I'll stay a virgin forever.

Men find it hard to give me orgasms, and that's a turn-off for them. (It's not impossible; I can give them a road-map, but it's not fast or easy and works roughly 50% of the time. Generally, they complain about hand-cramps and want to hear that the orgasm is close at hand. Sigh. Or they could use the vibrator, which works 100% of the time, and makes me happy - but then they're unhappy that technology was required.) I'm solving this problem by hooking up with kinky men who take pride in pushing my masochist buttons, so we don't have to struggle with my orgasms. I just get them later, at home. But I am more tempted to fake orgasm with sexy vanilla men than I have ever been before. I haven't gone there yet, but it keeps insinuating itself into my mind -- "our sex would be so much hotter for him if he thought he had just made me come." And I'm a pleaser, like b651, so it's very very tempting...
Posted by EricaP on December 6, 2011 at 11:05 AM · Report this
@258, I wish you lots of good luck while talking to your wife! If your marriage is great in all other areas, this means she does love you, right? She would feel empathy with a problem you had (at work, or with your health) and want to help you solve it, wouldn't she? That should be a basis for a good talk.

If she feels less desire, or even specifically less desire for you (say, because of the weight gain), and is afraid of hurting you by saying so... ultimately it ends up hurting you more that her sexual behavior became so formulaic and repetitive when your pleasure is concerned, right? It will be better to be honest about this issue, so that the two of you can know where you stand and then plan what to do.

Again, good luck!
Posted by ankylosaur on December 6, 2011 at 11:23 AM · Report this
@260, yes, the body language is crucial (I keep going back to my wife's personal eyebrow-raising reflex. When she does it on purpose, just because she knows the effect it has on me, it's both sweet and arousing.) And after you get it going, it's not terribly hard.

But I did find that getting it started wasn't automatic. Both my wife and I had expectations, both from previous lovers and from 'things everybody knows', about what should or shouldn't work; and sometimes when an effort at getting the 'undertone of sexual fun' going didn't work, the one who tried it can feel a bit angry at the other ('but you were supposed to find that sexy!'). It did take us some conscious effort to concentrate on each other, find out what work and what didn't, and (especially important!) not get slightly offended or angry that something didn't work.

All in all, we've managed well, though. Like you, it seems the next theoretical round of problems will be, "and what if maybe in the future we'll find these sexy routines too routine..."? But that's a second-tier problem, I think; that means we've already had success in the first phases, which gives us some built-up strength; enough, I hope, to be able to cross that bridge when (if?) we get to it. :-)
Posted by ankylosaur on December 6, 2011 at 11:37 AM · Report this
well my hymen sure fucking hurt when it got busted. I bled for four days. That sucker was made out of teflon.
Posted by Nisnimnin on December 6, 2011 at 11:49 AM · Report this
@261 EricaP: Boy, can I ever relate to you on the subject of dating insecurities!
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 6, 2011 at 11:58 AM · Report this
@262, one of my first girlfriends was also difficult to get off, even with long clitoral stimulation. (And she came right after a previous girlfriend who loved for me to go down on her and could easily and repeatedly get off; so I went from feeling as if I were the king of cunnilingus to wondering what was wrong with me...) She had several toys she liked to use, and at first I also felt bad about the idea of her sharing them with me. My first thought was the obvious 'that means I'm insufficient, only half a man, a bad lay', etc. etc. etc. It's an understandable reaction, considering how men are typically afraid of 'not performing.'

Things got a lot better, however, when we both realized that if I gave her analingus while she was using one of her favorite vibrators, the sensations became stronger and better -- her orgasm was more intense -- and I could actually feel her orgasmic contractions on her sphincter. Suddenly my participation was again crucial -- she started actually asking for me to 'come play with her and her toys' -- and I relaxed and became less insecure when looking at her toys. I actually started enjoying using them on her, and began to like having them applied on me, too.

(It's a pity my wife now doesn't like sex toys of any kind. Orgasms come quite easily to her -- she can get an orgasm by such primitive means as humping my legs for half a minute -- so she never felt the need for toys; but now that I actually am a friend of technology, I wish she also liked it. I would love to give her vibrators in our anniversray...)

As for faking an orgasm... unless you can be 100% sure that the guy will never find out, I would probably refrain from that. It may still be a 'male ego' thing (and maybe men should be less sensitive to such things), but it still often feels like faking an orgasm means he has 'failed', while actually getting the gal off is a source of pride. And it hurts to find out that the pride one had was, well, not based on reality... Again, it is an insecurity / fragile-male-ego thing, and men should probably learn to not be so judgmental about themselves because of their partners' orgasms. But it's probably going to take a while before that happens...
Posted by ankylosaur on December 6, 2011 at 12:00 PM · Report this
@266 - my husband and I solved this problem the same way you did with that early girlfriend. The vibrator is always within reach, so one of us may grab it to give our hands a break, but other body parts are still hard at work (fucking, stroking, fondling, licking, etc.), so he has confidence that my orgasms with him are stronger than they are by myself. I imagine that you were committed to your early girlfriend, and wanted to make it work.

Maybe I'm just complaining that dating is hard -- it's hard enough to find great guys who drive me wild and then to discover that they aren't prepared to work with me on this issue... it's disappointing. But I guess, like auntie grizelda says @265, I'm hardly alone in finding the dating scene challenging.
Posted by EricaP on December 6, 2011 at 12:09 PM · Report this
@266 "Orgasms come quite easily to her" - has she experimented much with squirting orgasms? If not, that might be a way to bring technology in - the Njoy Pure Wand is a nice little toy for hitting the g-spot. And if your anniversary is coming up, I think it would make a great gift!
Posted by EricaP on December 6, 2011 at 12:13 PM · Report this
This Is a great thread. Happening discourse, one and all! Thanks for that. Peace :) ~ +
Posted by Awake Happily @ 4:09 PM EST on December 6, 2011 at 1:09 PM · Report this
I am a long time fan of Dan Savage. I call myself a dedicated breeder ally.

So I was shocked to find out that Mr Savage is apparently a trans-phobe. As I stated, I am a breeder ally. At the Minneapolis Pride Fest every year, I have walked as a street medic for the Trans-Dyke March.

I am glad that Dan Savage got glittered. He deserved it.

He has lost this breeder ally. A bigot is a bigot is a bigot, no matter which community he or she comes from.

Disgusted Breeder in Minneapolis
Posted by Breeder Ally Like on December 6, 2011 at 1:14 PM · Report this
@268 EricaP: I'm intrigued! What are squirting orgasms?
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 6, 2011 at 1:16 PM · Report this
@EricaP: I definitely get where you're coming from with the insecure men. I spent my early 20s with a complete inability to get off with another person. I do think that was a mental block in my case (though obviously not everyone who struggles to orgasm is in that boat). While it didn't always work, I was very explicit with partners in explaining beforehand that it wasn't going to happen so that they didn't have expectations. Of course, some people just considered this a challenge.
I also explained that if they were too worried about me orgasming, I'd be too worried about it, and there was no way it would happen if I wasn't able to let go. (It's really amazing the difference in sexiness between the "Are you close?" or "Did you just come?" from an insecure person and the same questions being asked by a confident lover who knows your signals.)

I still encounter a bit of technophobia when it comes to incorporating toys. Luckily, I'm no longer tough to get off, so they're not entirely necessary anymore. :)
Posted by KateRose on December 6, 2011 at 1:23 PM · Report this
@270 Um, did you happen to read Dan's version of what happened?
Posted by KateRose on December 6, 2011 at 1:25 PM · Report this
@261: You sound as if you want to come more for their sake than your own, to make them feel hot or sexy or powerful. That's gotta be putting a lot of pressure on yourself, which can't help the situation.

I like what Kate said: I've always been a fan of the "You are responsible for your own orgasm" theory. (I think it was Betty Dodson who said that.)

Does it help to tell them that you can't come / don't want to come now / have a really hard time coming and don't want to worry about it / love sex but don't have the need to come the way most guys do?

I LOVE it when a girl says something like that; it takes the pressure off of me that she'll hold me responsible for her orgasm. I think a lot of guys are worried that a girl will judge them for not making them come. It might help a lot if you could convince them that you won't come and you just want to have fun with them and please them. And that you won't judge or reject them or refuse to see them again because you don't come.

I think of it like the fourth or fifth time I'm having PIV in a session: it's usually very difficult to come at that point, but it still feels really good.
Posted by BlackRose on December 6, 2011 at 2:02 PM · Report this
Also: anyone got any ideas how to convince a smart and sexy gynecologist that squirting isn't pee?
Posted by BlackRose on December 6, 2011 at 2:03 PM · Report this
@275 - on first dates, I provide that reassurance, and it's not usually a problem. By the second date, I usually bring the vibrator. It's unpredictable, but sometimes sex does really really make me want to come NOW :-) It's around date 3 or 4, that I get the sense that the guy is unsatisfied with the sex because I'm not as easy to make come as other women. Whatever. Maybe it's a symptom but not the cause of any weirdness I'm sensing. I just thought Crinoline might have some suggestions.

@276 I don't think it's pee, but I'm curious: what difference does it make to the smart & sexy gynecologist? Either way, it often squirts out during very intense female orgasms. If it were pee, would that mean we should teach people how to avoid doing it?
Posted by EricaP on December 6, 2011 at 2:56 PM · Report this
@117 substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka

That's exactly it. Exactly.

It's not how much he wants it, or how often they do it, or how they do it. It's whether this desire or drive is compulsive/can't be stopped for a significant period of time AND has negative social, physical, and/or professional consequences, AND takes place over an extended period of time.

Based on this, well, he's not quite there yet. He could be, of course, without an understanding and very GGG girlfriend. It's sort of like high-functioning drug addicts; so long as they have the discretionary cash to afford their drug intake, and sufficient free time to indulge, many if not most have a normal life with no major personal conflict.

When they run out, of course, things go downhill very, very fast. And with another, less understanding girlfriend, or without a stable relationship, things could go downhill for the LW's husband, too.
Posted by TokenCanadian on December 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM · Report this
The answer to "MBIIH" has to go down as top 10 best Dan answers ever.
I actually dated a 6x a week guy and I was the same GGG girl only I did other girls to please him as well.
Break up with the guy "MBIIH" This isn't about you or how much you try to please him. Do your self worth a favor and get someone who truly appreciates you for you and all that you have to offer in and out of the bedroom. Your boyfriend is an asshole.
Posted by flygirl on December 6, 2011 at 4:13 PM · Report this
261-EricaP on insecurity and orgasm-- My timeline went like this:

In love and thrilled that a boy I liked liked me back.

Sex, first time jitters, insecurity over sex accompanied by insecurity about everything else.

A break-up.

Lots of anxiety over everything.

A desire for that sexy in-love feeling again.

A desire for sex that's not necessarily in love.

Enjoyable sex without orgasms, some partners better than others. Curiosity about orgasms but plenty of desire without them. Insecurity about lack of orgasms.

Therapy for anxiety and issues. Little discussion about sex. No discussion about orgasms.

Orgasm with alcohol.

A partner bought me a vibrator which led to orgasms with and without him.

Orgasms without vibrator.
Posted by Crinoline on December 6, 2011 at 4:28 PM · Report this
@280 - so in the last two phases, you haven't had much insecurity about your orgasms? I'm happy for you.
Posted by EricaP on December 6, 2011 at 4:35 PM · Report this
@274: Okay--now, what are the best possible ways I can achieve this?
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 6, 2011 at 10:47 PM · Report this
@276: It's coming out of the vagina, right?
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 6, 2011 at 10:48 PM · Report this
@283 Yes :-) Masturbate to a couple of orgasms. Then find your g-spot:…

Most important: Get fully aroused, Levine says, because “the G-spot swells the more aroused a woman gets.”

Full arousal differs for every woman: It may be five minutes into sexual activity… or 25.

Once aroused and lubricated, follow these steps:

1. Insert a finger (yours or your partner's) in the vagina.

2. Run it along the top wall of the vagina. Look out for an area that feels different from the rest of the tissue. Perhaps it's more pleasurable when touched.

3. If you find a spot that feels promising, stimulate the area with a "come-hither" motion.

Don't worry if you don't find it at first. Try it whenever you have time to relax and get fully aroused. If you feel like you are about to have an involuntary urge to pee, that's the feeling you are going for. Don't fight it; let it happen.

(Note, like the woman in the Jezebel link, I can't choose to do it, but occasionally it happens.)
Posted by EricaP on December 6, 2011 at 11:09 PM · Report this
@280-1, it's actually interesting and instructive for men to hear about the whole insecurity about orgasms thing. I first heard that from my second girlfriend (the same who had the sex toys), and it opened my eyes to a number of female things and issues I had never thought about before.

EricaP, I was indeed very committed to that girlfriend -- she was a very important person, someone who helped me with a number of issues I still had from a very difficult childhood and adolescence, out of the kindness of her heart. She really is one of the best human beings I've ever met. I owe her a lot, both sexually and otherwise. (I kept in touch with her for over a decade after we broke up -- a friendly break-up. She was in Canada last I heard of her; married, two daughters, apparently happy. I hope she is.)

My wife has never had squirting orgasms (though she does get VERY wet while having sex, to the point of leaving puddles on the blanket under her). She says she doesn't believe in squirting orgasms (or, more exactly, she doesn't believe they'd be any better than the ones she already has).

@BlackRose, I think I understand what you're talking about, i.e., the guy feeling pressure from the girl because she thinks her orgasm is his responsibility and she will judge him if he doesn't give her one. I must be lucky, because I don't think I've ever slept with a woman who I think would judge me like that. But I can certainly see this happening, given the assumptions our culture tells us to make ('the prince has to cross a moat full of crocodiles, defeat the evil wizard and the dragon before he can climb the tower to the pricess' room and kiss her, thereby bringing her bliss' etc.).
Posted by ankylosaur on December 6, 2011 at 11:54 PM · Report this
@285, it's entirely possible that your wife is experiencing the same phenomenon, just in a less ejaculatory way; this link says that sometimes "the force is so mild that it is felt mostly as just an increase in wetness at the point of orgasm."…

In any case, if she's happy with her orgasms, there's certainly no reason to bug her about them.

How about you? Could you get some technology in the house for your own pleasure, anal or otherwise?
Posted by EricaP on December 7, 2011 at 12:02 AM · Report this
@BlackRose, it can definitely help by letting people know in advance. The insecurities can still come up, but at least I'm not leaving them thinking they're the only one that CAN'T get me off. Though there are ways it can backfire. Some guys can be super determined then, figuring it'll make them "the best", others decide that means they don't care about your pleasure at all since you obviously don't. Neither of these types are ones I'm interested in, so in the end it doesn't make much difference.

I had a friend ask me once (and I may have mentioned this on another thread a while back) why I liked sex so much if I never had orgasms. I explain it like ice cream. When you're out and you get desert, you get a sundae with all the bells and whistles. At home, you may not have all the fixins, so you just have a scoop or two of ice cream. Does it still taste good? Of course. Sex is the same way. Just because I don't get off, doesn't mean it's not amazing.

As someone who has been incredibly difficult, I feel fortunate that this is no longer the case. But, I still think it would be tough with a new partner. Some of the ease that I have is due to trust more than skill.

I also understand the other side of things too. Due to a medication my bf takes, he's still able to get turned on, but often has a hard time coming. Sometimes, no matter what we try to do, he just can't. Or maybe he could if we had time or energy for 4 hour sessions every time. It took me a bit to get over being insecure. While I enjoyed the increased stamina, I felt like it was unfair that I got to have so many, and he couldn't even have 1. It took several reassurances that he was not only ok with, but satisfied even if he didn't get to come too.
Posted by KateRose on December 7, 2011 at 5:57 AM · Report this
@283, 284: Female ejaculate doesn't come out of the vagina, it comes out just above it, either from the urethra or from glands next to it.
Posted by BlackRose on December 7, 2011 at 8:14 AM · Report this
@287: Is it bad if someone is determined to try to find ways to give you pleasure? I understand it being bad if someone pressures you or makes you feel inadequate for not coming, but just being determined doesn't seem like a bad thing. There's a difference between caring about your pleasure and needing / taking responsibility for your orgasm, as you point out.
Posted by BlackRose on December 7, 2011 at 8:17 AM · Report this
@288 You're right; I should have said vulva. But the g-spot itself is in the vagina.
Posted by EricaP on December 7, 2011 at 10:10 AM · Report this
@289 I think I may have explained that incorrectly. It's not the determination to give me pleasure that's the issue. I absolutely appreciate the effort. It's the attitude that they have to make me come in order to achieve that. I actually had someone argue with me over whether or not I had an orgasm. He swore that I had, and kept trying to prove it to me. Really? I'm completely unaware of the orgasm I just had? Gotcha.

I'm totally good with someone trying to give me pleasure (I know giving pleasure is at LEAST half the fun for me). It's more that I take issue with someone defining for me what that means.
Posted by KateRose on December 7, 2011 at 10:43 AM · Report this
@291: I see. It's like they don't actually care about you or what you want; they want it for themselves.

I think it's ok to want someone else's orgasm for yourself, though, as long as you're honest about it and the other person is fine with it.
Posted by BlackRose on December 7, 2011 at 9:51 PM · Report this
@292, yes, if both people enjoy Person X pushing hard for Person Y to have an orgasm, that's great. But it can also be a source of incompatibility, especially where Person X has strong opinions about how to get Person Y to that orgasm.
Posted by EricaP on December 8, 2011 at 9:22 AM · Report this
Especially where Person X keeps saying it's for Person Y, instead of for himself. That seems like the annoying part, whereas if Person X said that he wanted it for himself, Person Y might go along with it even if she didn't enjoy it (say, in exchange for a massage).
Posted by BlackRose on December 8, 2011 at 11:14 AM · Report this
Absolutely. Don't pretend you're all about my pleasure when you just want it for you. If you're worried about making me feel good, you'd do the things I wanted to.

Such as (since this is the only place I can gloat about it) coming home yesterday and having my boyfriend come in and say I could use him however I wanted for my birthday. While I'm somewhat submissive, getting to tell him exactly where and how I wanted him was kinda fun. :)
Posted by KateRose on December 8, 2011 at 12:21 PM · Report this
Mmm. That sounds hot.

My thoughts/fears about that, which I also expressed to ankylosaur in our conversation about submission, are that a lot of girls would be totally turned off by that. Because they think it's too passive, or weak, or not masculine enough, or because they want someone to do exactly what they want to them without having to say it. I'm glad you could enjoy that even though you're somewhat submissive.
Posted by BlackRose on December 8, 2011 at 1:06 PM · Report this
@295 Happy belated birthday!
Posted by EricaP on December 8, 2011 at 1:53 PM · Report this
Posted by KateRose on December 9, 2011 at 4:58 AM · Report this
I like the idea of a GGG card. You should market that. Or one of your at-risk-techy kids should make up a template that we can print off.
Posted by Jennifever on December 10, 2011 at 12:27 PM · Report this
4 times a week and she's GGG! Wow, my LTRGF last let me fuck her about 6 months ago. Most of the time when I hint that I'm in need and would love to see her naked, she looks like a deer caught in the headlights. Maybe she just likes to see me suffer.

If I had a sweet GF like MBIIH, I sure as hell wouldn't be bitching.
Posted by ironvic on December 11, 2011 at 8:43 AM · Report this
As for the 4 times a week thing, might I suggest the method my husband and I have used since we started sleeping together: if you want sex, you have 10 minutes to convince your partner. 10 minutes to do your damnedest to turn on the other person, in which they sincerely try to get into as well. When 10 minutes is up, if they aren't into it, you stop and deal with your problem some other way WITH NO COMPLAINTS.

Now, your start-up time may very, but for both of us, 10 is enough to know if we're going to get in the mood or not. And since both of us know that the other person has truly made the effort, there's no griping or resentment.

It's not only gotten us through 10 years, but 3 pregnancies with NO sex drive from me.
Posted by AesSedai on December 19, 2011 at 4:19 PM · Report this
Can the horny boyfriend be given my number? I've been in my relationship for 1 year and a few months, and our sex life has gone from amazing, fulfilling, 3x a day every day, to me having to basically BEG him to fuck me.
Posted by wehavenoshame on December 23, 2011 at 5:49 PM · Report this
@301: Your system does have a good functional principle, namely, "Don't be too quick to say No." However it does not take into account a couple of other potential pitfalls.

1) What happens when one partner's libido has sunk so low that even 10 minutes of cooperation consistently isn't enough? Saying No after 10 minutes of trying is still No, and those No's do stack up. Saying "NO COMPLAINTS" after a month or more of 10-minute-attempts-ending-in-No starts to feel like someone is gaming the system.

2) Even with a sufficient number of Yesses, it can get really, really old to always be the only one who initiates. One begins to feel horribly unattractive, undesired and undesirable. Over time it can be soul-crushing. Once you are in that spiral, being asked to put in an honest 10 minutes of persuasion just to get in the game feels even more like your partner fundamentally could take you or leave you, which sucks. And if you are required to put in the requisite 10 knowing full well that the answer is going to be No anyway, that's just salt in the wounds.
Posted by avast2006 on December 26, 2011 at 4:05 PM · Report this
Ahhh. Ball busting is a recognized kink.
NOW I understand the guys from the Jackass movies....
Posted by Steve I. on March 12, 2012 at 6:54 PM · Report this
I know I'm late to this, but I ID as gay, not as a lesbian, because while I'm (almost always) attracted to girls, I'm fairly genderless (I'm biologically female but even my *parents* tell me that they think of me as basically genderless, which is pretty much how I think of myself). I know it doesn't make much sense to think of myself as gay over lesbian given that I don't think of myself as having gender, but I tend to feel it a better label than 'lesbian', which I feel constricts me.
Posted by ThetaSigma on November 6, 2012 at 9:58 PM · Report this
I haven't read all the comments so I could be wrong, but 50+ comments in I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of boyfriend BEHAVING BADLY when denied sex. Putting her on the defensive, questioning her love/lust for him...? That is a major codependency red flag. He's trying to get an emotional need met with sex and making it her problem. She could literally fuck him 24/7 and he would still crave more. All the toys, tricks and quid pro quo in the world won't help this.
Posted by CalmerThanYou on December 5, 2013 at 7:36 AM · Report this

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