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Good Friends

December 21, 2011

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My sexy GGG husband and I fuck a "good friend" semiregularly. He's hot, young, and game to fuck about every other week. We started out wearing condoms, but we've had the safe-sex conversation and our good friend isn't banging anyone else, so we've moved to condom-free sex. A month ago, we had a hot threesome. Our good friend fucked me, but came on my tits. My husband fucked me, too—that night, the day before, the day after. Now I find out I'm pregnant. I'm 99 percent sure that it's my husband's, but a tiny part of me worries. What are the chances that it's my sexy friend's child and not my husband's? Without our good friend coming inside me? And with all the semen left in me by my husband? Could our "other" sex partner's pre-come get me pregnant? Please tell me it's probably my husband's! I'm freaking out!

Pregnant In Threesome

It's probably your husband's, PIT, but...

Pre-come can contain "live, viable, pregnancy-inducing sperm," says Dr. Joel Maurer, assistant professor in OB/GYN and dean of admissions for the Michigan State University College of Human Medicine. "Most [studies have found] that it contains very little, if any, sperm," says Dr. Maurer, but the possible presence of those live, viable, pregnancy-inducing sperm cells means it could be your good friend's child, not your husband's.

It's also why many—including Dr. Maurer—regard "pulling out" as an ineffective birth-control method.

"For every 100 women who use withdrawal correctly, four will become pregnant every year—this number jumps to 27 if not used correctly," says Dr. Maurer. (For every 100 women who use condoms correctly, two will become pregnant, 18 if they're using condoms incorrectly, which is why some argue that withdrawal is nearly as effective as condoms.)

Backing up: Pre-come is produced by the Cowper's gland and some other gland whose name I can never remember, PIT, while sperm cells are produced in the nuts. Sperm doesn't get mixed up in the seminal fluid—produced by the prostate and a couple of other glands whose names escape me—until the guy starts to ejaculate. So if your good friend didn't have an orgasm shortly before he fucked you and he didn't come inside you and there were no stray swimmers in his pre-come for some other reason, odds are slim that the baby is his. It's possible, PIT, but nowhere near probable.

"A paternity test after delivery of the child is the safest advice I can give should it remain an important issue to her and her husband," says Dr. Maurer. "An amniocentesis can make this 'diagnosis' before delivery, but the procedure comes with a small risk of pregnancy loss. As such, most doctors would consider it unethical to perform amniocentesis for the sole purpose of paternity testing without a coexisting medical reason."

To all the other nonmonogamous straight couples out there: Not using condoms with your other is fucking stupid. Using condoms with others is important not just to prevent disease but, if your other is a dude, to prevent paternity scares like the one PIT is having. And you should be using condoms with your other, male or female, regardless of safe-sex conversations or assurances that your other isn't banging anyone else. Unless your other lives in a cage in your basement—very hot, not very practical—you have no way of knowing for sure that your other doesn't have other others.

After an impromptu sex session that left me feeling sleepy and sappy, my partner, who typically feels sleepy and sappy herself after sex, texted someone! The fury that arose within me could not be contained! Neither the text message itself nor its recipient were the issue (it was to a coworker about a work matter), the issue was that she couldn't wait a few minutes to hug and kiss and say "that was hot" before sending a text?!? She thinks I'm overreacting and blames it on me being premenstrual. She has not apologized. How does she not get it? Isn't post-sex texting tacky?

Wasn't That Fucked?

Post-sex texting is tacky, WTF, and it's thoughtless. I can understand why you were annoyed. I can also understand why your girlfriend has refused to apologize. If one ill-timed text sent your panties so far up your crack that it unleashed a "fury that could not be contained"—if you raged at your girlfriend for being uncharacteristically inconsiderate (it sounds like she usually makes with the postcoital hugs, kisses, compliments, etc.)—then yours was the greater offense.

Don't get me wrong: Your girlfriend owes you an apology. But you owe her a bigger one, WTF, and yours should come first.

I'm a submissive gay man. All anal sex guides stress that when done right, anal sex should cause no pain. But what if I want pain? Over three years, my boyfriend and I have proceeded from having lots of anal foreplay to lube-it-up-and-stick-it-in. I love it, and once it stops hurting, as it always does after a while, I have amazing orgasms. So does he. There's a definite line between the arousing kind of pain and too much pain. But that line has moved closer to more intense pain, and I'm worried about injury. Then again, we're not sticking progressively bigger objects up my ass, just the same object with less foreplay. Is this risky?

Boy Used To Taking

It depends, BUTT.

You can enjoy lube-it-up-and-stick-it-in anal without incurring too great a risk of injury so long as your boyfriend isn't shoving his entire dick up your ass in one thrust. If he's pushing his dick in you gradually but firmly, giving your poor butt a chance to relax and adjust as he "forces" his way in, then you'll probably be okay. (Probably is the word of the day.)

That said, BUTT, while it's a fine thing to enjoy a little pain during sex—or "sensation play," as the kinksters have taken to calling it—making your asshole the focus of erotic pain isn't a sensational idea. Anal fissures and tears take forever to heal, and even a small one can put your ass out of commission for months. A big one can put your ass out of commission for years.

There are plenty of ways your boyfriend can make you hurt during anal without brutalizing your hole. He can slap your ass, yank on a pair of tit clamps, pull your hair, crank up the juice on an e-stim unit. You've got nerve endings all over your body, not just in and around your hole.

I'm a gay man in my 20s. While I love reading your advice for red-state kinksters, straight married folks, and lesbians with hymens, I'm wondering where the gay has gone. Can we get a column or two with an assortment of questions addressing the problems facing gay men in their 20s? Something for gay boys at that stage of life that falls between "it gets better" and "it gets domestic"?

Feeling Left Out

Happy to—hit me with some Qs, gay boys, and I'll dedicate a couple of columns to your issues and tissues.

Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at

@fakedansavage on Twitter


Comments (171) RSS

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tupa 1
Not using condoms with the "other" on his word? Oh hell no!
Posted by tupa on December 20, 2011 at 6:56 PM · Report this
Dan answered the question PIT asked beautifully. Now let me take it in a different direction. What if the fetus's father is the Other? How much difference does this make to their lives? Would her husband love the child less? Does Other now have parental responsibilities? Must their 3-way sex now become 3-way parenting? I'd guess that this does not have to become a problem, surely not so much of a problem that PIT has to freak out to that degree.
Posted by Crinoline on December 20, 2011 at 7:37 PM · Report this
Unless there is going to be some obvious indicator that this isn't your husbands kid (red hair, different race etc) I feel like you should just let it go. I feel like there being a small chance the kid isn't his is better then the reality (however small) of it actually being the thirds kid. That could open up a pretty large can of worms (including legally I would imagine).
Posted by spoons on December 20, 2011 at 7:50 PM · Report this
Lilliable 4
I recently had a thought similar to FLO's, but I was wondering where all the questions were from those of us still 34.
Posted by Lilliable on December 20, 2011 at 8:00 PM · Report this
mydriasis 5
People go on their wive's/husband's/gf/bfs word all the time. Don't get me wrong, I don't do poly and I would never have unprotected sex outside a monogamous relationship. But logically taking his word is a difference of degree, not of kind.

But seriously. Homegirl wasn't on the pill?
Posted by mydriasis on December 20, 2011 at 8:05 PM · Report this
Thank you Dan for calling it what it is: "pretty fucking stupid". I have nothing to add. Condoms are not the only birth control; even if you're not worried about your cute friend's transmittable diseases, PUT IN AN IUD. For Christ's sake.
Posted by love dan on December 20, 2011 at 8:07 PM · Report this
7 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
@7 Well, George already did the eating/watching TV during sex, and if texting had been a thing in the 90's I'm sure he would have done that too. Congratulations, WTF, you're dating a George! But she's the one who's worse off, because you're the one with an irrational temper.
Posted by sahara29 on December 20, 2011 at 8:21 PM · Report this
...that stage of life that falls between "it gets better" and "it gets domestic"?... Hilarious phrasing, FLO! NOT TO MENTION, it's great to see "It Gets Better" becoming such a part of the lexicon that it can be quoted w/o explanation.

Merry Christmas Dan, et al...
Posted by gbrooks on December 20, 2011 at 8:30 PM · Report this
Ms Crinoline - You're on the right track.

If we had such a thing, this letter writer almost certainly would be a finalist for a Gertrude Award.
Posted by vennominon on December 20, 2011 at 8:56 PM · Report this
10 -- I googled briefly and still don't get it. Gertrude Award?
Posted by Crinoline on December 20, 2011 at 9:09 PM · Report this
@10: to carry over from last week's thread... I posted this comment @175... How did you process the knowledge that you were used as "an accessory to adultery" once you were old enough to fully realize how you were used? My kids are 6, 11, and 13 and I think that the older 2 for sure will be able to figure it out. I am worried that they will feel guilty or blame themselves for not stopping the affair. I have them both in individual therapy in part to guard against this, but other advice and insight is welcome. I really worry about this impact on them.
Posted by sad in Chicago on December 20, 2011 at 9:38 PM · Report this
I agree with @3 but what the hell lady what are you doing having sex with multiple men without serious birth control?! Yes, sometimes it fails. Which is why women having multiple sex partners should be using condoms and IUDs (either copper or mirena) or some sort of implant that does not rely on you taking a pill at the precise right time without any antibiotics in your system. Super irresponsible lady. And yes, it is just as irresponsible for the Other to fuck some other dude's wife without a condom but damn, as the one who gets pregnant and bears the burden of reproduction you'd think she'd get her head out of her twat long enough to be a fucking adult about it.
Posted by wendykh on December 20, 2011 at 9:48 PM · Report this
echizen_kurage 14
The other set of glands that contributes to the production of preejaculate (although not nearly as much as Cowper's glands) is the urethral glands, aka Littre's glands. Not that anybody wanted to know that, but there you go anyway.
Posted by echizen_kurage on December 20, 2011 at 9:54 PM · Report this
Had to write to number #3 and #13. It is completely unacceptable to just not mention that the child might not be her husbands. I'm sorry, but that is a shitty thing to do. It seems really unfair to not give her husband the choice of whether he wants to raise some other guy's child. Also, just because she lies now doesn't mean it won't come out later. Medical issues come up. Certain physical traits either develop or become more noticeable as a child gets older. Better to have the fallout now than when the child is old enough to understand why Mommy and so called Daddy are arguing and talking divorce. imagine you're nine years old and you suddenly find out your Dad isn't actually your biological Dad. That's rough. Also what about the other guy? What if he wants to be a father to the child? It's not just her that matters here. All the people involved matter.
Posted by Tattenger on December 20, 2011 at 10:10 PM · Report this
Ah the joys of non-monogamous sex (or hetero sex in general for that matter), but I digress.

I have several, I guess, issues with PIT's letter.

Primus: Just what kind birth control (as opposed to disease control, I'm not going there as DS more than adequately addressed it) was PIT using, if any, she doesn't say and was she careless in its application? This is admittedly unfair, but since she was the only one who could get pregnant it was her responsibility to preclude, as much as possible, pregnancy.

Secundus: Accidents happen, no single or combination of birth control is 100% effective. PIT doesn't say whether her husband wants or is ready to be a father, his attitude towards the paternity of a child, if he even knows that she is pregnant, and most rudimentary of all, whether she and her husband have discussed pregnancy and parenthood in general or in the context of a non-monogamous relationship. While I am sentimental and romantic, I am also pragmatic, practical and yes, cynical. Out of respect for the other person, I would never blindly/stupidly begin a sexual relationship without a serious discussion on the consequences of sex and my responsibilities. (You may think that this would stifle sponaneity, but I would argue just the opposite. Addressing such issues up front allays fears and doubts, which are more likely to inhibit spontaneity) Needless to say, I'm not interested in sex for sex sake, if felt the need that badly I'd go to a sex worker. I don't intentionally (I'm not the only one who has a say in the matter) do hookups or one night stands.

Tertius: Given the fact that she is writing to DS for advice, I doubt she has shared the "good" news with her husband. Therefore, as a result of the delay, she had better be prepared for some pointed questions from her husband (like why the delay, what else isn't she sharing; once raised, doubts can be pernicious things), amniocentesis, an abortion, and/or marital issues.

Posted by snarky is as snarky does on December 20, 2011 at 10:10 PM · Report this
Given the circumstances (a treesome), the husband would have to be totally clueless not to wonder about the paternity of the child. If she doesn't tell her husband about the pregnancy and goes ahead has an abortion, she is courting disaster. Any abortion have can have physical and/or emotional complications, which could be a real problem if her husband doesn't know what is going on (among which are undermining her integrity and credibility as well as the her husband's trust)
Posted by truth? and its consequences on December 20, 2011 at 10:39 PM · Report this
Holy fucking SHIT, Batman!!
PIT's dilemma proves once and for all that "putting it in--just a little" is fucked.

@16 stupid is as stupid does: I disagree! Excuse me, but it is the equal responsibility of ALL 3 PARTICIPANTS in the threesome to ensure that unwanted pregnancy is prevented!

And what's with the pig Latin?
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 20, 2011 at 10:41 PM · Report this
PIT: I'm curious what the relationship dynamic is between you and your husband, that would make this an issue -- specifically because of your activities so far. Surely someone who is engaging in condomless sex with a third is aware of the potential that any child conceived during that interval might well not be his? Has he already said (or otherwise led you to believe) that he will freak out and divorce you if the child turns out to fathered by somebody else? If he is that person, what the hell is he doing agreeing to no-condom sex with a third? Conversely, if you know this about him, what the hell are YOU doing agreeing to no-condom sex with a third? Are you actively trying to blow up the relationship?
Posted by avast2006 on December 20, 2011 at 10:49 PM · Report this
Glad I'm not the only one who was disturbed by PIT's failure to mention any other birth control after stopping condoms. She might have been using some and didn't mention it, or she did mention it and that part was edited out for space or whatever.

But if she (they) indeed used no birth control after they gave up condoms, the three of them deserve the mother of all dope slaps.
Posted by Still on the pill after having my tubes tied on December 20, 2011 at 11:26 PM · Report this
@20 she was definitely on some other form of bc, because the pregnancy was unexpected. And she wasn't letting boytoy come in her. So there was some tacit acknowledgement of the concern. They were being more than minimally careful. It's probably her husbands. She doesn't mention if he is worried about it. He must be able to do the damn math. So if he's not worried, why should she worry? Really, truly, why?

And does anyone have advice re: anal fissures? Because the damn doc says just try to reduce stress, drink a lot of water. No dice. It's been over a year and I don't want surgery. Thoughts?

Also, one of the fun possible side effects of the last writer's playtime is that you can lose the ability to know when you have to shit. This can be problematic. I know I value that particular skill. He needs to rethink the pain play.
Posted by nor on December 21, 2011 at 12:06 AM · Report this
@15 - her husband was in the room with her and the other guy. Pretty sure he might be able to suss out the possibilities himself.
Posted by nor on December 21, 2011 at 12:12 AM · Report this
#22 you're right and I apologize. It's just the tone of #3 and the agreement of #13 came off to me as it was acceptable to just not find out and everything would be fine. I disagree. If I misread their tone then I'm sorry. Even though the husband has the info the 3rd guy may not. If they don't tell him specifically how far along she is he may not make the connection. Admittedly if a woman you have fucked turns up pregnant you'd have to be dim not have red lights flashing. I definitely think that it should be sorted out for the benefit of the child. Like I said there is a very real possibility this will come up in the future and if the kid doesn't know and finds out he or she will be blindsided. I just feel like the letter writer and those commenters are using the ostrich method. Just stick your head in the sand and ignore it and everything will be fine. I just think this is a bad idea, but I should have better edited myself.
Posted by Tattenger on December 21, 2011 at 12:33 AM · Report this
@ 21 - Re: advice for helping chronic anal fissures heal. There is a type of ointment available that has a 'nitrate' (glyceryl trinitrate, actually) in it. Just like with angina, nitrate products help relax smooth muscle, although in this case, it relaxes the smooth muscle of your anal sphincter. One of the theories surrounding anal sphicter fissures is that chronic over-activity in the sphincter (a medically polite way of calling you a 'tightarse') causes splits in the mucosa which do not heal. Using this ointment for a little while will work wonders at relaxing your shpincter and will help the fissure to heal.

I know this because I was once a sufferer of this incredibly painful condition. I also know it because when I was a medical student in Sydney, Australia, I helped out in a study where we rubbed such an ointment on the anal sphincters of rats to check that it was a god treatment for this condition! (the rats loved it ...)

I kid you not, it is just like amyl-nitrate, only for your butt. The only potential issue is that if you are nitrate naive (if you haven't had poppers before whilst fucking - or for those of us old enough to remember, whilst dancing under the mirrorball) then I suggest you use it sparingly at first. If you use too much it will give you a terrible (although harmless) headache - just like your first ever hit of poppers would!
Posted by DrTom on December 21, 2011 at 2:16 AM · Report this

Depending on how she feels about it and other circumstances, giving birth to and raising the results of an unplanned pregnancy could be disastrous. She may not be able to raise a child due to a lack of financial/emotional/mental resources. She, her husband, or their boyfriend may carry a fatal genetic disease. Or she and her husband agreed to never have kids.
Posted by Ashley Amber on December 21, 2011 at 2:51 AM · Report this
I tend to agree with @2(Crinoline): Dan's answer is quite well given, and they'll find out soon enough whose son this is (PIT's husband is of course the most likely one). So the only real problem is what happens if he isn't the father? Are we going to have a big relationship crash over that, or aren't they? Is PIT's freaking out based on her knowledge/expectation of how hubby will react, or is it only her? Of course, the one person who they all should be thinking about is the baby.

Also, I agree the pregnancy was probably unexpected (they were apparently taking steps not to get pregnant), but I don't see them having such a big problem with it: PIT doesn't mention the possibility of abortion, which she could do quickly and safely and then not have to worry about whose child it would have been. I assume this means that, however unexpected, it is a baby they'd rather have (that was my case when I was conceived, since my parents weren't yet married at the time). So I don't feel like chastising PIT so much for not taking birth control: it seems like the possibility of her getting pregnant from either man wasn't something they were trying to avoid at all costs, right?

So I'd say to her: since you seem to want to have the baby, then wait till it's born and find out who the father was. But, regardless of the result (which is very probably, 99%-or-more your husband), what are you going to do about the baby? Should the other guy get involved? If the three of you are almost having a polyamorous relationship, then they should; but if the Other is really just an Other, i.e. basically a friend for sex, then he shouldn't get more involved than any normal friend would. That is what I would want if I were in your husband's position -- even if the child, against all odds, turned out to be the other guy's child. But that's me, not you, your husband, or your other guy; so the three of you should figure it out (all together if you're more polyamorous, first you and your husband and then third guy if you're not).
Posted by ankylosaur on December 21, 2011 at 3:15 AM · Report this
3-Spoons-- What legal can of worms? Traditionally, and in most states even now, a child born in a marriage is assumed to be the husband's and is legally the husband's. It only becomes a can of worms if someone questions or fights that. It's a can of worms if the husband accuses his wife of infidelity and demands a divorce because of it, but I can't really see that happening here. Or maybe it would be a can of worms if the child's biological father demanded custody or visitation, but I don't see that happening in this case either. If all Other wants is visitation and to remain a friend, that sounds like an ideal situation.

Sure it might be awkward to explain to the child that his/her biological father is actually the friend who's been visiting since his/her infancy, but that doesn't sound so terribly different from any adoption or open adoption explanation. In other words, unusual, maybe a little awkward, but ultimately not the end of the world.

I'm not sure what PIT's freak-out is about. It's understandable that anyone would be freaked over an unplanned pregnancy, but if that were the case, she'd be asking about abortion. Instead, she asks specifically about paternity, and the freak-out seems related to that.

Maybe the freak-out is over the possibility that she'll have to give up the threesomes? But I'm grasping at straws with that one.

(What's a Gertrude Award?)
Posted by Crinoline on December 21, 2011 at 4:47 AM · Report this
MythicFox 28
@7 -- I once read a porn story about someone getting bored in the middle of giving a blowjob and started texting his ex-boyfriend in the middle of it without letting his partner know.
Posted by MythicFox on December 21, 2011 at 5:17 AM · Report this
gttim 29
Oh yes. Paternity. What a scary thing, if unplanned. The third in this three-way should have insisted on using condoms just to avoid this. He can be hit with child support for a very long time- making it an expensive three-way for him.

Let me add, this is why my nightmares went away after having a vasectomy! I sleep much better now.
Posted by gttim on December 21, 2011 at 6:01 AM · Report this
If the third had peed since his last ejaculation, the chances of sperm in the precum are more or less zero, if not, then it's possible, but compared to the husbands deposit still very unlikely.. Chances are, once the child is born it will become abundantly clear unless the third was a close relative of hubby or his doppelganger. For good evolutionary reasons, new babies tend to more prominently resemble the father, as the acceptance and therefore support of the father (food, protection etc) would have made the difference between surviving and thriving and ultimately reproducing though most of human history and prehistory. This has been born out through my own observations of friends newborns, and sadly, by the fact that a friend of mine was rejected by her months husband the very first time he saw her as he could see (correctly) that she wasn't his.
Posted by UK girlie on December 21, 2011 at 6:51 AM · Report this
Advice for BUTT--try ginger! Google figging, the pain is intense and fantastic. If you find raw ginger root is not enough, powdered ginger will do the trick. I highly recommend powdered ginger from Penzey's. It is fresh and strong!
Posted by Lucky Pierre on December 21, 2011 at 7:33 AM · Report this
Advise for BUTT--for wonderfully delicious anal pain I highly recommend ginger. Google "figging".

If you find raw ginger is just not enough, try powdered ginger. Penzey's powdered ginger is extremely fresh and very painful if used the right way.
Posted by Lucky Pierre on December 21, 2011 at 7:39 AM · Report this
Sorry for the double post. I suck at the internets.
Posted by Lucky Pierre on December 21, 2011 at 7:40 AM · Report this
@18 Once they eliminated condoms, just what can the men do to prevent pregnancy. Limit the sex to omly oral and anal?

Pig Latin? Que? No habla pig latin.
Posted by snarky is as snarky does on December 21, 2011 at 7:57 AM · Report this
"Our good friend isn't banging anyone else"??? Unless she's got a webcam taped to his nutsac, how could she possibly know that? It's official: PIT has just won the Zelda Fitzgerald Emotional Maturity Award. Mazel tov, babe!
Posted by wayne on December 21, 2011 at 7:58 AM · Report this
30-UK Girlie-- "For good evolutionary reasons, new babies tend to more prominently resemble the father"

Nooooo! Recombinant DNA simply does not work like that. There may be good reasons why it would be nice if it did, but it doesn't. It doesn't work like that for the mammals humans share an evolutionary history with, and it doesn't work like that in humans. Some babies in your observation may more closely resemble their father at birth, but that's the luck of the draw, and you haven't considered the legions of non-biological fathers who have been hoodwinked over the millennia.
Posted by Crinoline on December 21, 2011 at 8:15 AM · Report this
mydriasis 37

"For good evolutionary reasons, new babies tend to more prominently resemble the father, as the acceptance and therefore support of the father (food, protection etc) would have made the difference between surviving and thriving and ultimately reproducing though most of human history and prehistory."

Erm... I believe that's incredibly false, actually. Do you have a paper on that?

First of all... the premise that genetics are designed to make a baby look more like one parent is... for that to be possible I think genes might have to be sentient. Think about how that would actually work on a molecular level. It's impossible.

I've read a study that showed people were more likely to compare the baby to the father when talking about him/her. Is that what you're referring to?

In terms of being able to identify maternity/paternity. They actually did some kind of study once where they showed that men could essentially be given any baby (of the same race) and they would think he/she looked like him if he was told it was his baby. Mothers, on the other hand, were readily able to tell if a baby wasn't theirs.
Posted by mydriasis on December 21, 2011 at 8:18 AM · Report this
Re: unprotected sex, my lover and I had it all of the time and it was exceptionally hot. It helps that I'd had a clip job, and was infertile anyway. So hot we fell in love, and decided to leave our respective spouses.

And that's when the problems started.

While we were each married to other people and holding demanding jobs and raising children to boot, she reasoned that we were members of a de facto fluid-bonded group. (Which, given her husband and my wife, was wholly credible!) The risk of either of us contracting HIV, while scientifically possible, was minimal on the level of a swimming pool.

But once we were no longer married people, the hot sex stopped. Why? Because we were now single people. Now that we're on the loose, she reasoned, it could get risky. And who wants those cumbersome, icky devices anyway (both of us were broken in pre-HIV)?

Of course the obvious solution would have been to stay married and continue the affair. Perhaps trendsters in the Northwest and people under 35 elsewhere can openly do that. But Flyover Country is not ready for that yet.
Posted by Token Straight Old dude on December 21, 2011 at 8:45 AM · Report this
@27 No matter how awesome the people involved, there are lots of reasons to freak out over paternity. If the other guy knows she's pregnant, he can request a paternity test and legal rights to the child even though she is married. Her husband may not be ok with raising another man's child, and, even if he is now, that may change once the child gets older and starts looking more and more like the other guy. Also, like in a previous thread, most married couples do want to appear monogamous even if they aren't. So if she and her husband aren't "out" about their activities, and the other guy wants rights, this could certainly out them to their whole community.

Plus, I feel like it would be kinda messed up to say to the other guy, "Well, you're just sex, so it's just sperm. He's not your kid, you don't get to help raise him whether you want to or not."
Posted by KateRose on December 21, 2011 at 9:30 AM · Report this
The kid not being the husband's is a huge fucking deal that he will not "get over" like not getting the car color he wanted. The anxiety is justified.
Posted by textthatappearsbelow on December 21, 2011 at 9:46 AM · Report this
A lot of commenters are giving PIT flak for not using birth control, but the fact that she didn't mention being freaked about the pregnancy itself or how her hubby is reacting makes me think maybe she and her husband were trying to get pregnant.
In that case it was doubly stupid to have your third not use a condom, but we're all human and we all do stupid things.
If the husband seems unconcerned (he either knows the probability is slim or he doesn't care who the biological father is) then hopefully everything will turn out okay. Probably should establish paternity immediately after the birth so if it is the third's he knows and can either establish his rights early on or have the hubby legally adopt the baby so the third gives up his rights.
Posted by Dynomite on December 21, 2011 at 9:51 AM · Report this
@18: What? For someone who claims not to speak pig Latin, you sound like a really ignorant fool.

"Once they eliminated condoms, just what can the men do to prevent pregnancy?" Are you kidding, or just plain ignorant?

How about getting educated on what a nine month pregnancy from unprotected sex entails? How about just not having PIV sex without some form of birth control if not everyone is cool with the 3-way resulting in a baby, just for starters?
The threesome could also have avoided any hot sexual activity inducing stray live sperm altogether if anyone was squeamish--including the husband and wife-- about the risk of sudden parenthood.

How about YOU pulling your head out of your dumb fool trolling ass?
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 21, 2011 at 9:51 AM · Report this
@18: Oh, wait. I's so much FUN living in the dark for you trolls, isn't it?
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 21, 2011 at 9:56 AM · Report this
mydriasis 44

"And who wants those cumbersome, icky devices anyway"

Hey, tell your generation I said thanks for this:…

Posted by mydriasis on December 21, 2011 at 10:01 AM · Report this
@34 e stupidus fraternitum: my posts @42 & @43 are for you, in response to the idiotic comments you made on @18.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 21, 2011 at 10:04 AM · Report this
@30 UK,

When my eldest came out, the baby looked precious little like me (in terms of the face), but I wasn't worried because it looked like my brother in law. The mother's genes do have some role in things! Our second OTOH looked like everyone in my family.

Posted by Married in MA on December 21, 2011 at 10:17 AM · Report this
I get that PIT wasn't on birth control. Why can't some of the responsibility be placed on the males in this scenario? There could be reasons she wasn't on birth control. Why couldn't one of the men in the situation demanded condoms to prevent pregnancy? They are just as much to "blame" as her. It's tiring hearing that it's always the female responsibility to do something undesirable to/with her body (hormones, devices, etc.) to prevent pregnancy.
Posted by BethR on December 21, 2011 at 10:32 AM · Report this
@44 mydriasis,

Why limit your thanks to that generation (particularly given where the strain was isolated)? Anyone that has had unprotected sex with multiple partners, including serial monogamists (like me), has a part in this.

All this means is a return to the historical mean: fucking around can cause your junk to rot off if you aren't careful (or lucky). Who knows, maybe we'll see men lining up to breath the virgin vapors from young women like in those period romance novels (hoping for a cure).

Posted by Married in MA on December 21, 2011 at 10:35 AM · Report this
mydriasis 49

Basically exactly what you're saying.

Before boomers "junk rotting off" was a risk, after boomers AIDs was a risk. They were the generation that (in much higher numbers) decided that unprotected sex wasn't dangerous. Obviously it's not purely them, but I'd guess they made a particularly hefty contribution (due to their behaviour - CONTINUED behaviour, if you look at retirement homes - and cohort size) to the evolution of multi-drug resistance in sexually transmissible bacteria.
Posted by mydriasis on December 21, 2011 at 10:58 AM · Report this
@7 (Jill) -- The operative word in the story was impromptu. That's what happens when your mind is not sufficiently clear of all the tasks and politics from the office before you get down and dirty. But thankfully the girl's partner didn't suddenly stop DURING the act and offer, "We've definitely got to get the HP LaserJet!"
Posted by Axl on December 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM · Report this
@12 sad,

As an adult that figured out my dad had an affair during my adolescence, I'd like to suggest some things I wish for:

Honesty. Don't push it, but if asked try to respond in an age appropriate nonjudgmental fashion. Try to avoid blame, because if the children were involved even peripherally, the blame will rub off. If you are hurt and sad, say so; it happened.

Unwavering support. No matter what your children have your love and care; don't let your bitterness towards your CPOS husband enter your relationship with your children. Give your children a positive role model by doing your best, without overcompensating, during a difficult period of your life.

Don't turn them into victims. Talk to their therapists, and yours(?), about how to coordinate a sane approach to dealing with your husband's bad behavior. Yes, it happened to you(all), but that doesn't mean you have to let it become the defining incident in your life. In retrospect, this would've been my greatest wish, had I been privy to what was happening at the time.

Your responsibility in all this is to clean up the mess your husband made as best you can, for the sake of yourself and your children, without making things any worse.

Good luck, and best wishes!

Posted by Married in MA on December 21, 2011 at 11:09 AM · Report this
@24 - thanks for the suggestion! The docs did give me a nitroglycerin cream (it had to be made up out of heart pills by a pharmacist because there isn't apparently a product on the market that is low dose enough - they gave me 0.5% - it's supposed to be 0.2% so they just said use very very little) but the headaches are breathtaking, and even if I get past that after a few days of use they are always kind of still there, just not as painful, more of a constantly disoriented feeling. I've used it for a month at a time before, no help so I stopped. The doctor I talked to about it said the headaches were a big problem and didn't really push use of it or seem to think it helped, but maybe I need to talk to a real compounding pharmacist about it (the place I got it from clearly hadn't made it often).
Posted by gnot on December 21, 2011 at 11:11 AM · Report this
@49 mydriasis,

Because I am a Marion Chesney fan (and a History buff in general), my time scale would be pre and during the age of antibiotics. If you wish to get your mad on, do so with all of humanity for squandering the precious resource of antibiotics with trivial overuse and underdevelopment of new antibiotics. Antiviral agents are less overused because of their limited scope (vaccines) and cost (anti-HIV drugs).

In North America the older generations are a majority, that is not the case elsewhere, so it isn't all our fault.

Posted by Married in MA on December 21, 2011 at 11:32 AM · Report this
@ 51: GREAT Advice: "Unwavering support. No matter what your children have your love and care; don't let your bitterness towards your CPOS husband enter your relationship with your children. Give your children a positive role model by doing your best, without overcompensating, during a difficult period of your life."

VERY Wise. My brother and his wife divorced not too long ago, and to all our amazement, despite the relative acrimony between my brother and my sister-in-law, they *never* let it affect how their two kids (boy and girl) were loved by either of them. Their parents stepped up, dealt with this like true adults who love their children, but just happened to fall out of love themselves. It still amazes me that neither my nephew or niece ever had a bad time of it leading up to the divorce.

I even said to my brother one time, "I don't want to pry or anything, but I just wanted to say that you and Beth are really doing something right, because Nick (nephew) and Taylor (niece) have no behavioral, etc. problems with the transition.

That was because their parents were honest, and they handled it all as best as they could, while never letting the kids feel responsible in any way about why their parents broke up.

Amazing. It can be done: you just want to want it enough out of overall, unconditional love for your children. Nice piece, Married In MA.

Posted by George's Teatime With A Trumpet (No Crumpet lol) on December 21, 2011 at 11:33 AM · Report this
ok, my bad.. when i was studying biology in the late 90's this was a popular theory, it appears however, my own observations aside, that the theory of paternal resemblance has since been refuted, next time i'll check my sources..
Posted by UK girlie on December 21, 2011 at 11:43 AM · Report this
Hi I was @7, my comment was pulled as "spam." There is one jerky complainy dude here that doesn't like that I sign my comments with my blog address. A TON of other people has said they are happy to hear from me. I a regular person engaging with others, not a automatic machine selling, like, asian brides or something. Can we reconsider? Here is what I wrote:

--I think we're, like, seconds away from people texting during sex. Although if the texts are the same as regular ol' during-sex talk, I'm predicting many text variations of "Oh my God, I'm gonna come." Soon after shortened to OMGIGC.

Posted by inbed on December 21, 2011 at 11:55 AM · Report this
I think we're, like, seconds away from people texting during sex. Although if the texts are the same as regular ol' during-sex talk, I'm predicting many text variations of "Oh my God, I'm gonna come." Soon after shortened to OMGIGC.
Posted by inbed on December 21, 2011 at 12:11 PM · Report this
I think we're, like, seconds away from people texting during sex. Although if the texts are the same as regular ol' during-sex talk, I'm predicting many text variations of "Oh my God, I'm gonna come." Soon after shortened to OMGIGC.

ps. there, happy now?
Posted by inbed on December 21, 2011 at 12:14 PM · Report this
@52 - yeargh, glyceryl trinitrate is nitroglycerin. Maybe you just built up a tolerance? Or it doesn't work in all people? Just using vaseline or something I found to be as effective, which was not very. Ah well.
Posted by nor on December 21, 2011 at 12:33 PM · Report this
balderdash 60
Not using condoms with a FWB-third seems like a calculated risk to me - the kind of calculated risk we all take in order to do things we think are fun, or hot, or worthwhile. For my part, sex without condoms is so much better that I'm willing to take certain risks for it, within reason.

Within reason.

One of the things I won't do is rely on withdrawal for birth control. So, uh... what the fuck, PIT? You don't think maybe that was kind of a stupid-ass thing to do? And a stupid-ass thing for your husband and your boyfriend to do?

Get a paternity test after the kid is born. If you know that having your boyfriend's kid would just fucking detonate your lives, get the amnio and go from there. I guess if you really think that you can't take the risk of having your boyfriend's kid without horrendous divorce and resentment and related consequences that would make life miserable for the child, you could get an abortion. No kid should be unwanted; that's no way to grow up. But damn, that seems like a stupid fucking last resort to me.
Posted by balderdash on December 21, 2011 at 1:08 PM · Report this
mydriasis 61
I think you may be confused.... drug resistant STIs are largely caused by antibiotic treatment... of STIs. Though you could make a case that people treating their strep throat with antibiotics could very very indirectly increase the likelihood of drug resistant STIs.... I think that's a tiny contribution.

The period you're referring to: post penicillin, pre HIV led meant way less effort into avoiding STI contraction. If you look at the people who were at their STI-swapping prime during those decades, they were largely baby boomers.

That's all.
It's not all your fault, but mostly.
Don't worry, my generation will fuck something up too.
Posted by mydriasis on December 21, 2011 at 1:12 PM · Report this
mydriasis 62
@ Married

My snark was in response to snark. It wasn't really meant to be directed towards you. Nothing makes my skin crawl like people who complain about condoms or call them 'icky'. Do you know what's icky?

This:… is icky. What's 'cumbersome' is dying of AIDS.

Those wacky generational differences...
Posted by mydriasis on December 21, 2011 at 1:24 PM · Report this
"Unless there is going to be some obvious indicator that this isn't your husbands kid (red hair, different race etc) I feel like you should just let it go."

Um, isn't that really the HUSBAND's call. And the other man, who might be his father? And the kids? How nice if SHE let's it go, but there are three other human beings with at least as much interest in the issue. More interest, in fact,
Posted by Yeah, people give a shit who their dad/kid is on December 21, 2011 at 1:27 PM · Report this
OT but funny:…
Posted by somebody on December 21, 2011 at 1:36 PM · Report this
I second 31's figging recommendation. It's just about the lowest-risk butthurt you can dream up.
Posted by fubarista on December 21, 2011 at 1:50 PM · Report this
To everyone mentioning IUDs, they are actually not recommended to women with multiple partners, because multiple partners = higher risk of contracting an STD, and with a little string hanging from your uterus, a bacterial infection that would normally be just a minor inconvenience may turn into an infertility inducing pelvic inflammatory disease.
Posted by tiare on December 21, 2011 at 2:38 PM · Report this

2 women share the traditional first kiss upon the return of the USS Oak Hill from a tour of duty!

Posted by Married in MA on December 21, 2011 at 2:56 PM · Report this
@62: "Nothing makes my skin crawl like people who complain about condoms or call them 'icky'. Do you know what's icky?"

Self-righteous safe-sex zealots who harbor a secretly sex-negative side, and who seem unaware of their own neo-Puritan tendencies and are secretly pleased at other people's venereal misfortune? Those are pretty icky, IMHO.

You're basically saying that we're not allowed to acknowledge reality, to wit: condoms make sex smell and taste bad. They turn PIV into an experience comparable to eating dinner after a Novocaine injection. They make men lose their erections, and because of that, generally encourage a rushed, half-felt attitude towards the sexual act. They're unpleasant, malodorous, and can come damn near to ruining sex.

They're ALSO a very good (though far from perfect) means of preventing STD transmission. And you know what? Admitting everything in my previous paragraph doesn't change that. It doesn't make condoms stop working to acknowledge that they suck, and make sex less fun and less pleasurable. It doesn't cost us anything to acknowledge that men's feelings, men's pleasure, men's experiences are valid. Denying reality doesn't make men wear condoms; it makes them suspect that safe-sex advocates are lying to them.

(And in fact, safe-sex advocates aren't 100% honest about risks, partly because they're afraid that if men realized how much lower the rates of FTM HIV transmission are vs. MTF HIV transmission, they'd start refusing to wear condoms and throw women to the wolves. So they play coy with the actual odds, making a guy think he has a 50% chance of getting AIDS from a blowjob when he's more likely to get struck by lightning.)

So in the holiday spirit, I'd like to give a big, hearty "fuck you" to your sanctimonious self. People like you are a LIABILITY to the safe-sex "movement", such as it is. Reading your self-congratulatory prose makes me want to have unsafe sex, and encourage my friends and colleagues to do the same, simply out of spite for your smug, patronizing tone. It makes one feel as though anything that's the opposite of what you want, and what you advocate for, must be a good thing.
Posted by quarter to three on December 21, 2011 at 2:58 PM · Report this
@68, you missed the point, which is that all that bitching and whining about condoms you just did is fucking obnoxious.

I do think it's funny that you respond to being reminded that condoms are a a good thing by being a giant baby. A bloo bloo bloo, your warnings make me feel bad, watch me ~rebel~
Posted by what a child. on December 21, 2011 at 3:19 PM · Report this
mydriasis 70
You're ridiculous.
Posted by mydriasis on December 21, 2011 at 3:21 PM · Report this
mydriasis 71
edit: my response was to 68, not 69. 69: Thank you, I couldn't agree more.
Posted by mydriasis on December 21, 2011 at 3:23 PM · Report this
Actually, the point is that telling a person to shut up, and that his feelings and experiences are irrelevant, is a great way to breed hatred and destruction.
Posted by quarter to three on December 21, 2011 at 3:27 PM · Report this
Oh, and also that most safe-sex advocates are fucking obnoxious, and their constant preaching makes people roll their eyes and ignore them.

And that maybe more people would use condoms if people like mydriasis were less self-congratulatory and sanctimonious, and more sympathetic and genuine.

And that people like mydriasis think they're motivated by trying to do what's right, but really it's all about the pleasure of the high horse, though they'll never admit it.
Posted by quarter to three on December 21, 2011 at 3:32 PM · Report this
@51, @54: Thank you for the kind words. I am striving to approach this in the way that you advocate, and in fact, although separated, the dissolution of my marriage is not a foregone fact yet. We are trying to work it out.

What I was specifically seeking advice for was this situation: during his affair, my husband used our three children as a means to spend time with his -- uh -- mistress. They were, as Mr. Ven noted yesterday, an accessory to adultery. I am concerned about their reactions as they grow older and are better able to grasp the truth of the "playdates" etc. I am concerned about my older two children, especially, who are 11 and 13, and I think on the cusp of being able to understand exactly how their father used them. It's disgusting, and I think it will be hurtful and confusing for them. Mr. Ven noted that he had been in a similar situation as a child and I was seeking his insight as to how he processed that knowledge as an adult. Did he discuss this with his parent? Was he asked for his forgiveness? Did he offer it? Is there anything I can do now or in the future to mitigate their pain when they realize this ugly truth?

To be clear, I am not trying to point this situation out to them or ruin their opinion of their father. I don't want them to suffer any more than they have. But they are intelligent and observant, and they are already aware of the basic facts of the matter: their father had an affair and they know and have spent time with that woman and her children.
Posted by sad in Chicago on December 21, 2011 at 3:56 PM · Report this
@quarter to three
Are you over the age of 50? Because most people I know under the age of 50 are safe-sex advocates. Most of them (us) won't have sex with you if you are unwilling to play safe.

You are absolutely free to roll your eyes and expose yourself to as many women as will let you. It means not a thing to those who practice safe-sex, so therefore will never sleep with you.

Of course, that would be silly and stupid, but its your choice!
Posted by ebetsy on December 21, 2011 at 3:56 PM · Report this
@51, @54: Thank you for the kind words. I am striving to approach this in the way that you advocate, and in fact, although separated, the dissolution of my marriage is not a foregone fact yet. We are trying to work it out.

What I was specifically seeking advice for was this situation: during his affair, my husband used our three children as a means to spend time with his -- uh -- mistress. They were, as Mr. Ven noted yesterday, an accessory to adultery. I am concerned about their reactions as they grow older and are better able to grasp the truth of the "playdates" etc. I am concerned about my older two children, especially, who are 11 and 13, and I think on the cusp of being able to understand exactly how their father used them. It's disgusting, and I think it will be hurtful and confusing for them. Mr. Ven noted that he had been in a similar situation as a child and I was seeking his insight as to how he processed that knowledge as an adult. Did he discuss this with his parent? Was he asked for his forgiveness? Did he offer it? Is there anything I can do now or in the future to mitigate their pain when they realize this ugly truth?

To be clear, I am not trying to point this situation out to them or ruin their opinion of their father. I don't want them to suffer any more than they have. But they are intelligent and observant, and they are already aware of the basic facts of the matter: their father had an affair and they know and have spent time with that woman and her children.
Posted by sad in Chicago on December 21, 2011 at 4:00 PM · Report this
Ms Crinoline - Sorry to keep you in suspense; it was not deliberate. This is my first chance to get over here today. I almost explained, but I thought it would be too obvious, and therefore insulting. This is why there is only a vague rumpour that one person has ever solved any of the acrostics I've composed without assistance.

Of famous Gertrudes, I'm quite sure Hamlet's mother would make the top five, if not the top three. And I expect that, of all her lines, the one that most people will associate with her is (apologies to those who have heard or read it differently; there are variations):

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Wouldn't that be a grand criterion for a regular Award?

Just for giggles, I'll guess that the line people most forget was another of Gertrude's is Sweets to the sweet(: farewell) from Ophelia's funeral.
Posted by vennominon on December 21, 2011 at 4:43 PM · Report this
nocutename 78
I don't know whether I can answer your questions, as my parents' marriage is intact, and to the best of my knowledge, neither one ever had an affair.
But my childhood best friend's mother had an affair with the husband of the family that were family friends and the kids were often around for cover, and one of my oldest and dearest friend's ex-husband had an affair with a woman who worked for him and who had cozied up to the young son, establishing a friendship. Still another close friend had a husband who used his time driving the carpool to have phone conversations with his mistress, assuming either that the kids were too busy talking with each other to pay attention to his phone conversation or that the talk went right over the kid's heads.

What ultimately seemed to matter was the direction the affair took after it was discovered.

My friend's mom married the family friend, and the two have now been married over 30 years. The daughter went to live with her mom and new stepfather, as her dad was irresponsible (part of the reason for the mother's marital discontent to begin with). She very quickly got past any feeling of having been used and came around to thinking that her mother and step-father were meant to be. She was 12-14 when the affair was going on, btw.

The girls whose dad had talked to his mistress when they were in the car felt guilty at having picked up on something weird going on that they didn't report to their mom at the time. They also disliked the mistress and their father who made as clean a getaway from his role of husband and FATHER as he could with the divorce. It wasn't until he broke up with that woman that the father-daughter relationship began to repair itself. But now they get along well with him and really like his current girlfriend. They adore their mother's second husband. They were 8-9 and 11-12 when this was going on, btw.

Finally, the boy whose father's girlfriend had insinuated herself into the family and especially had buddied up with the boy 11-14 or thereabouts was the most hurt. He felt humiliated and betrayed, lied to, and manipulated. He was probably as badly hurt as the wife, and felt betrayed by both his father and the girlfriend. He was furious with his father, and refused to have anything much to do with him. But time passed (he is about to turn 18), his dad didn't press but stayed a presence, and the dad and girlfriend ultimately broke up. Now the son and his father get along much better. The son likes dad's new girlfriend just fine and loves mom's boyfriend.

Kids heal. They have an enormous capacity for love and forgiveness and they also feel a slight more than adults do!

Take the high road--they'll be able to see for themselves how their dad used them--or maybe they'll see it as something else, more like they were incidental to his affair. Their natural desire will probably be to protect you, so if you appear to hate this woman and to blame her, they will, too.
Posted by nocutename on December 21, 2011 at 4:44 PM · Report this
Ms Sad - Sorry to be so late, but paperwork that usually takes less than an hour for me on a Wednesday took over six!

My case is a bit bizarre. My father occasionally used to take me away for weekends for several years (about ages 6-11) in the interest of a perfectly respectable pursuit. That I'd be left alone in hotel rooms on Saturday nights never bothered me. Or being taken to Sunday dinner in someone's home and left alone in the library for nearly an hour gave me a good chance to catch up on my reading.

By the time a bit later on that I figured out what had been going on, my parents had found common cause in a new interest - getting me into conversion therapy against my will. Defeating conversion therapy took most of my effort and energy for some time. By then I'd become disenchanted with both of them. As my mother, who went in for the other two As (alcohol and abuse), was rather the primary mover in the therapy, I basically just declared a pox on both their houses and never said a thing.

It took them ten years more to separate and five after that to divorce. My father has never said anything directly or indirectly. My mother eventually would throw out hints and seem to wish that somebody else would bring the subject up or mention particulars, but I never felt moved to oblige her. Still, at least now, I have limited contact with either of them, and on my own terms, so that it's all very civil.

It does, though, make for interesting hearing. It was strange listening to the Podcast yesterday. Hearing Mr Savage tell the college student with the homophobic and manipulative family to love them struck the alien note that concept always has.

Sorry if this post seems dreary. But at least for some time now I've only had to engage with their better selves and in very limited quantities, so that I actually wouldn't have anything differently.
Posted by vennominon on December 21, 2011 at 5:36 PM · Report this
In most, maybe all, States there is a presumption that a child born during a marriage is the child of the husband.

The issue would only arise if the 'real' father sued to see the kid and pay support.

Legally and morally the child would be the husbands and that should be that- unless the baby comes out like Earl Junior in 'My Name Is Earl.'

Praise the Lord that WTF is a lesbian as it takes away any possibility of my being in a relationship with that really incredibly melodramatic bitch. Tacky sure. But the fury within me could not be contained? Really scary.

For BUTT I have a suggestion. Use piping hot enemas and then follow it with capsaicin and hot sauce. If that is not enough then oxygen delivered by a long thin tube up your butt will cause so much pain you will be rolling around in agony.
Posted by Professor on December 21, 2011 at 6:16 PM · Report this
shurenka 81
@PIT: sperm can live in the vagina for up to a week or more, so... If you had unprotected sex with the friend any time that month (the month you ovulated and became pregnant) it could be his child.
Posted by shurenka on December 21, 2011 at 6:46 PM · Report this
@79 vennominion,

I know it is none of my doing, but I wanted to say I'm sorry for what happened to you vis a vis conversion. Here's to a future where that kind of therapy may not exist.

Posted by Married in MA on December 21, 2011 at 6:58 PM · Report this
WTF-- The problem with expressing all that fury, however justified, is that it puts all the attention on you when, if you think about it, it's in your best interests to want to know what's going on with her. She used to get sleepy and sappy after sex. That time she didn't. What's up with that? Is it a one-time aberration? The start of a new trend? Did she not come? Is she falling out of love? If she weren't now on the defensive, she could feel free to explore those questions with you. If you weren't calling her tacky (and she was tacky), she could talk to you about how she felt. If you weren't demanding an apology, you could find out.

So now you have to figure out what's more important to you. Do you want that apology, or do you want to find out what would possess her to feel so removed from sex with you that she's distracted seconds after? Do you want her to feel strongarmed into cuddling despite not really wanting to, or do you want her to share that in-the-moment feeling?

At the risk of getting all touchy-feely on you, do you want to be happy or right?
Posted by Crinoline on December 21, 2011 at 7:18 PM · Report this
@30, 36, 37, 55: The paper supporting this assertion referred to appearance at age 1, not at birth, and was a brief article in "Nature":…
(Christenfeld & Hill, Nature, v. 378, p.669, '95)
and the most recent study I found backed this up for toddlers:…
(Alvergne et al., Evolution & Human Behavior, v.18, pp.135-144, '07)
But this isn't my area of study. Did you find anything more recent that puts this in doubt?
Posted by Biologist in the stix on December 21, 2011 at 8:20 PM · Report this
Dear Auntie G

You've just proven that you can not read, understand what you read, count, or have faulty short term memory. To begin with, snarky is a perfectly legitimate english word in and of itself. The only Latin used was Latin enumeration (counting for the illiterate).

Second, if you are going to quote someone, use the full quote. “Once they eliminated condoms, just what can the men do to prevent a pregnancy. Limit the sex to only oral and anal?” Perhaps I should have included hand jobs as well. To the best of my knowledge the only effective male birth control method is a radical vasectomy (something more invasive than just snip, snip). Every other method is based on the female. Are you so paternalistic that you would require male supervision of the female forms of birth control (insertion of the IUD or female condom; use of a spermicide, the pill, morning after pill; the rhythm method; checking the consistency of vaginal mucus; did I leave anything out?). I can understand the menstrual cycle being relevant to a discussion on how to avoid pregnancy, but just how is the human gestation period relevant to that discussion (and nine months is such a crude and imprecise approximation). Men (who are scum) can simply walk away from a pregnancy (the consequences of that come later). Pregnant women can’t just walk away. So yes, women, more so than men, have a primary and vested interest in avoiding pregnancy.

Lastly, your post at @43 referenced your own post @18. From your use of invective and name calling I would take you to be a typical loathsome, neofascist, fundamentalist, republican. (I can engage in name calling with the best of them, but that distracts from reasoned discourse)

Merry Xmas, happy Hanukkah, yule and every other greeting appropriate to the winter solitice.
Posted by snarky is as snarky does on December 21, 2011 at 10:12 PM · Report this
Excuse me, I left out abortion, forced miscarriages, and infanticide as things men can do to deal with an unwanted pregnancy.

I should also have referenced your post @42.
Posted by SIASD on December 21, 2011 at 10:24 PM · Report this
Beth R

In a fair world yes, but in the real world the consequences of any pregnancy are greatest for the woman. There are still places in the world where a pregnancy (for medical reasons i.e. obstetrical death) is a potential death sentence for the mother.
Posted by a skeptic and a cynic on December 21, 2011 at 10:43 PM · Report this
"Unless your other lives in a cage in your basement—very hot, not very practical—you have no way of knowing for sure that your other doesn't have other others."

Same can be told of your "regular" partner, though. They can definitely cheat on you. It becomes a matter of trusting them not to, and that if they do they'll use condoms THEN. Otherwise, use condoms for every one then (or other forms or protection when no penis is involved).

I find it more stupid that they had the safe sex talk and presumably all the tests that go with it, stopped using condoms, and never thought about pregnancy. Either she didn't want to get pregnant and should have used birth control (which doesn't have to be condoms. Pills, IUDs, diaphram, implants, there are LOTS of birth control options that leave you fluid bonded) or she was trying with her husband and should have used condoms with her other, or stuck to non-reproductive sex.

Also, I'm not sure why it matters whose semen produced the baby. Presumably you'll raise the kid with your husband so it will be his kid. I guess it might matter to the other, but I'm not sure why it matters to you. I mean either way you're sure it's your kid, after all.
Posted by Avistew on December 21, 2011 at 11:42 PM · Report this
@Mr Ven, I'll add my name to the list of those who are saddened by your parents' forcing you to submit to conversion therapy. I'm glad you defeated it, and I am with those who hope that this kind of therapy will eventually end.
Posted by ankylosaur on December 22, 2011 at 12:44 AM · Report this
@80- Noooooo! Forcing oxygen, or any kind of gas, into your rectum is a better way of making yourself leak feces for the rest of your life (or bleed to death, for that matter)then anything the letter-writer wrote in about. Seriously, think about the properties of a gas. Gases expand. The less space they are given to expand in, the greater the pressure. Inserting a gas is like inserting a toy that neither you nor anyone else has any control over, or any idea what it's going to do.
Posted by monkeyshines on December 22, 2011 at 2:17 AM · Report this
77 Vennominon-- I'm generally pretty up on my Hamlet, but the only Gertrude that came to mind when I saw comment 10 was Gertrude Stein. (I also thought of a distant cousin's aunt.) In the play, I usually think of her as the Queen. To avoid future confusion, I suggest the "Doth Protest Too Much Award."
Posted by Crinoline on December 22, 2011 at 4:54 AM · Report this
@66 - they debunked that. Turns out it's fine.
Posted by gnot on December 22, 2011 at 4:56 AM · Report this
Re: Texting after sex-- I think the vast number of difficulties in the sex department come from the confusion over what's physical, what's a choice, and what's a tendency towards one or the other with the possibility of overcoming the tendency.

For a lot of us (me definitely), there's something about sex that gives me that affectionate, sappy, sentimental, sleepy, stupid, warm feeling. I don't know the science explaining it, but I'm convinced that there's something physical behind it, that it's not just a habit or something culturally induced. Of course, I could jump up and send a text if I had to, but the desire to strikes me as particularly unlikely.

So it occupies a middle ground between something I can't help and something I can. If I had a partner like WTF's girlfriend who didn't feel the same way, I'd be confused too.

Posted by Crinoline on December 22, 2011 at 6:48 AM · Report this
Hey all, happy longnight!

@61 mydriasis,

Your examples in particular are, of course, correct, but in terms of antibiotic resistance in general, not so much. I won't waste text here when a quick trip to wikipedia's entry on antibiotic resistan… will work beautifully. If the only source of antibiotic exposure for selecting resistant strains of bacteria were inside of humans, the negligent overuse of antibiotics would be bad enough. That doesn't include the vast quantities released into the environment via animal feed for cattle and other livestock, all of which provide developmental pools to originate the transmissible genetic elements that can become combined in the "super bug" MDR bacteria, like the strain cultured from the throat of a professional sex worker in Japan.

And, for the record, I will set my pre-antibiotic mean at 1900, and the age of antibiotics starting in 1940. The potential loss of antibiotics for the prevention and cure of human disease should be an issue that terrifies us all, our possible junk rot notwithstanding. Add to this problem the vaccination dodgers and you end up with the huge headaches facing public health officials in a time when budgets are dropping, and politicians are willfully ignorant.

Posted by Married in MA on December 22, 2011 at 7:38 AM · Report this
nocutename 95
@93 (Crinoline);
that sappy, sleepy, warm feeling is caused by a huge release of oxytocin. Interestingly, even though the body makes and releases oxytocin at orgasm, the levels of it are higher if the orgasm is reached with another person present--even if the orgasm is achieved through self-stimulation.
Posted by nocutename on December 22, 2011 at 8:28 AM · Report this
Messrs Married/Ank - Thank you both. It would be an improvement for the world, certainly. I do feel a little sorry on Ms Sad's behalf that it's not a history with a more uplifting moral, but at least she can take comfort in my having come through something on the same page as what her children are facing. I certainly wish them all the best, and think they may have better odds.
Posted by vennominon on December 22, 2011 at 8:30 AM · Report this
nocutename 97
Mr. Ven:
I am also sorry that you were the victim of forced conversion harassment. And that you were used as an accomplice to your father's affair. I hope you found yourself a better family to support you.

I also agree that when you say "Gertrude" I don't think of Hamlet. There could be a Hamlet award, but there would be too many contenders for what it's for!
Posted by nocutename on December 22, 2011 at 8:34 AM · Report this
Mr. Ven: thank you for taking the time to respond. I too am sorry that your parents were so insensitive and bullying to you and I am glad you have risen above their awful behavior. It does give me hope that my kids will eventually be all right.
Posted by sad in Chicago on December 22, 2011 at 8:49 AM · Report this
@88: "Also, I'm not sure why it matters whose semen produced the baby... I guess it might matter to the other..."

Or to the husband, which might fuck up their relationship.

"...but I'm not sure why it matters to you."

Because it might matter to the husband, which might fuck up their relationship.
Posted by avast2006 on December 22, 2011 at 8:56 AM · Report this
Ms Crinoline - DPTM is always a possibility. I was thinking that Gertrude is one of the more Savagerian characters one might find in Shakespeare. I'm not particularly expert on Shakespeare, but off the top of my head I'd nominate Twelfth Night as likely the most Savagerian play, although perhaps that might even outdo Mr Savage and maybe we should stick with Othello or something else.
Posted by vennominon on December 22, 2011 at 8:58 AM · Report this
PIT, it's totally your husband's child. Absolutely. Don't even worry about it. Seriously. You know it is. It'll have his ears. Wait and see. Hugs!
Posted by Juane on December 22, 2011 at 9:31 AM · Report this
# 29. Where dous that avatar come from. I absolutely love it.
Posted by Julieinweimar on December 22, 2011 at 9:50 AM · Report this
@24 DrTom:

OK. Well then. When someone says "Who gives a rat's ass?" you can smile and raise your hand. I'd be waiting for those moments all the time if it was me.

Posted by marmer on December 22, 2011 at 10:24 AM · Report this
95-nocutename-- Release of oxycotin from orgasm or from getting turned on that might or might not lead to orgasm?

Then apply it to WTF in the 2nd letter. She used to get sappy and sleepy after sex. Then one time she was so unsappy and unsleepy that she jumped up to send a work related text. What would account for the difference?
Posted by Crinoline on December 22, 2011 at 11:29 AM · Report this
@85: stupid is as stupid does: For a pathetic boob with a lot of nonsense to spew, YOU prove to be the one who cannot read, understand what you read, or count, and your long term memory appears to be as bad as your short term memory. BRAVO! Your point is...?

By the way, I noticed your arrogant use of Latin wasn't in use this time, frat boy. Did you lose your eucalyptus leaves, too?
Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Feliz Navidad, Adeste Fideles, and be careful who you call a Republican.

Posted by auntie grizelda on December 22, 2011 at 12:04 PM · Report this
To PIT: You are an idiot.
Posted by srevits on December 22, 2011 at 12:46 PM · Report this
@86: May I remind you that YOU limited the preventive things that guys can do to eliminate the risk of unwanted pregnancy to condom use, oral and anal sex?

Be careful, too, who you label a loathsome, fundamental neofascist.
It sounds like it fits your description to a T.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 22, 2011 at 12:48 PM · Report this
GQbd 108
WTF's complaint made me think of an ex-wife who was bad to balance her checkbook after sex. Unlike with WFT, however, that wasn't uncharacteristic at all. Regardless, for someone whose major turn on is giving their partner pleasure and who has never experienced that sort of reaction before, it can be very confusing and upsetting. Maybe the most difficult part is knowing whether it's a message that you need to up your game or that you are sleeping with the wrong person.

Posted by GQbd on December 22, 2011 at 1:20 PM · Report this
108-BQbd-- Speculating here. If one didn't get the sappy-sleepy feeling, would it be better to pretend (spend 10 bored minutes lying in bed) or to balance the checkbook? It's a question like whether it's ever O.K. to fake an orgasm.
Posted by Crinoline on December 22, 2011 at 1:50 PM · Report this
GQbd 110
As a gross generalization, I think most guys would rather know that they are ineffective rather than be deceived. It is something that guys talk about but I suspect that that generalization may apply more to guys who know that they can be effective. As for women, I now realize that I have never discussed with my female friends whether they would want a girl to fake an orgasm for them or not.

That said, any misgivings about effectiveness is a touchy subject to bring up because you risk sending the message that you want faked orgasms.
Posted by GQbd on December 22, 2011 at 2:08 PM · Report this
GQbd 111
Excuse me Crinoline, I did not answer the question as it was asked, which is,as I understand it, should you pretend to want accommodate your partner with post coital cuddling even if you don't want to.

It seems to me that post coital cuddling is part of sex and something you do with your partner whether you want to or not; unless you are trying to send a message that is. I mean, I guess there are people who would rather dispense with the 10 or 20 bored minutes of foreplay, but those who feel that way have learned to keep those feelings to themselves. Then again, that's just me and I seriously like to cuddle.

Of course sometimes you can't cuddle, in which case good manners suggest some explanation like "Damn baby, you make me weak at the knees but I gotta get back to the office" along with a (sincere) promise to linger longer next time.
Posted by GQbd on December 22, 2011 at 2:27 PM · Report this
re: PIT--if PIT is over 35, she may elect to have an amniocentesis anyway (and it will be covered by insurance). Many "advanced maternal aged" women do who are certain of the paternity. It's not everyone's choice, but it might have been her choice regardless of the paternity issue. In which case, the establishment of paternity is a nice ancillary benefit.

Posted by milkshake on December 22, 2011 at 2:36 PM · Report this
WTF: You had a "fury that could not be contained"? Excuse me if this comes off across as insensitive, but is it really that serious?

Describing your sex as an "impromptu sex session" doesn't suggest to me it was that kind of "magical love making" that would leave HER feeling sleepy and sappy. Maybe she had other things on her mind right before the "impromptu sex session" that required her attention after the session. Isn't it more important that she was willing to be with you when she was?

You better hope that your "fury that could not be contained" didn't mess you up for another "impromptu sex session" or any other sex session with this lady.
Posted by broken beyond repair on December 22, 2011 at 3:26 PM · Report this
PIT: in as much as the three of you obviously had candid conversations regarding first participating in a threesome and then participating without the use of protection, it seems to me that the three of you should sit down and have yet another candid conversation what is about to transpire in your lives. Without a paternity test, both men will probably wonder throughout this child's life with or not which is the father.

Oh and by the way, just because your good friend isn't "banging" anyone right now, do you have a list of everyone he has "banged" in the past? Because you're sleeping with them as well right now.
Posted by broken beyond repair on December 22, 2011 at 3:37 PM · Report this

You're still carrying burden from your parents' divorce. You're not responsible in any way. They live/d their lives as they were. Live your own life.

Posted by Hunter78 on December 22, 2011 at 5:05 PM · Report this
This texting after a bj-- isn't this a reprise of a couple weeks ago-- "You idiot, he wasn't texting, he was taking your picture sucking him off, and posting it to the internet?"

Posted by Hunter78 on December 22, 2011 at 5:11 PM · Report this
And this friend only fucks the two of you.
You got pregnant? Better do a DNA test. And make the 'father' own up and pay. For the life of a child.
Or for an abortion.
If you don't want to get pregnant - protect yourself and insist the guys do too.
Tell them - I don't use birth control. Do you?

Stop being stupid.
Posted by DutchButch on December 22, 2011 at 9:07 PM · Report this
I tell ya - all the anguish and bs straight and bi women go through.
Call me jaded, but as a full blooded Lesbian I'd say that if you have unprotected sex with men you open yourself up to STDs and pregnancy.
Is that so fucking hard to understand????
At the same time, MEN: when you have unprotected sex with a woman you risk Pregnancy and STDs. Are you ready for an 18-year commitment to raise a child??? Or pay for it??

Please, people, THINK before you come!!
Posted by DutchButch on December 22, 2011 at 9:16 PM · Report this
Argh, I'm so frustrated. I can't figure out how to respond to specific posts!
Like the ones focusing on pregnancies and/or fetuses.
Never once do I see the term like Syphilis, or Gonorrhea, or any other STD.
I tell ya, I'm SICK of those who care about fetuses as if they're people. SICK SICK SICK.
A fetus is like the chicken you have for dinner.
(An entirely inappropriate comment, but THINK for a second. THINK!)
Posted by DutchButch on December 22, 2011 at 9:26 PM · Report this
From what I have observed, it is republicans who are normally the first to use ridicule and personal attacks.

I am curious why you thought I was using pig latin unless that was intended as an insult.

Posted by SIASD on December 22, 2011 at 10:17 PM · Report this
@120: Ridicule and personal attacks? Qui, moi? Do you watch FOX TV much?

Yes, I was being sarcastic about why you were using silly terms like 'primus', 'secondus', and 'tertius' in your @16 post to list your points re PIT's letter to Dan.

Unless you're Julius Caesar, which I doubt, usage of such words is pretty ridiculous. I am equally curious why you thought I was a loathsome, neofascist, fundamentalist Republican unless that was intended as an insult. If so, then perhaps I should have clarified myself further: what's with the misogynist pig Latin?

Posted by auntie grizelda on December 22, 2011 at 11:09 PM · Report this
@120: One more thing: I'm just curious, but why have you abbreviated and capitalized your unregistered post? Did spell check conk out?
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 22, 2011 at 11:15 PM · Report this
ghostfox14 123
The American version of Threesome... Probably wont be as funny as the uk version...
Posted by ghostfox14 on December 23, 2011 at 2:04 AM · Report this
@117: Parenting doesn't stop at the child's age of 18. It's just a different twist to it. The parent may not be financially obligated, but there are more important obligations than just the financial: emotional and spiritual. Unfortunately (and this is not directed at you, #117), people do not understand that parenting does not stop at a child's legal age. As a mother of a 20 year old, I see that the "adult child" needs a little more guidance because he or she is now really experiencing true life and gets lost sometime.

So to piggy-back what #117 was saying, we need to keep in mind that we will ALWAYS be parents!
Posted by broken beyond repair on December 23, 2011 at 6:14 AM · Report this
Tim Horton 125
Ms. Sad @76, my 2 cents:

What @78 Nocutename said was spot on, and illustrates there is no way to predict how this will turn out. Kids are very resilient.

I was also a child accessory to my father's affair to someone he worked with. I probably went through the usual range of emotions, but it took until my 30s to accept the situation. The biggest revelation was to realize my father was a messy, flawed human who made the same mistakes, was overcome by the same desires that have haunted people forever. It did not make him evil, just human. Accepting my parents were not perfect went a long way. Simple concept, not sure why it took me so long to get there.

Your children will heal. Whether they will have a good, bad, or any relationship with their father is mostly out of your control. Remember - the pain he caused you through infidelity is completely different from the pain he caused the family by breaking up the home. Although it arose from the same event, the path to forgiveness and acceptance is totally different.

All I can share is what you have probably been told before - do not disparage your ex-spouse in front of the kids.

Best of luck.
Posted by Tim Horton on December 23, 2011 at 6:20 AM · Report this
sissoucat 126
@125 I understand the "do not disparage your ex in front of the kids" - and I try to do just this.

But - the ex is not a normal human being ; he is an abuser. He has abused me all right, but he has also abused the kids - during the marriage and now, and he keeps on doing it : the kids tell me about it. Since it's psychological, and not physical, I have no means to bring this to justice in order to protect my children - since they are the primary witnesses and they would have to testify against him to have the judge take any care. I think this act of testifying against one of their parent, pushed by their other parent, would be more damageable for them than the (moderate) abuse they suffer at his hands. But then I could be wrong.

Worst abuse he's done to them : taking the children to a playground in an unknown city. Sneeking out of the playground with his girlfriend (the eldest one, 9 at the time, saw them and joined them). Hiding outside of the playground, and keeping on watching the 2 remaining children's behavior (5 and 3), even after the 5-years-old has noticed that he's gone, has stopped playing, and is prostrated in front of the bench where he last was. When the eldest child yells and makes his position known to the other children, slapping the eldest child for disobedience. And punishing both the 9 and the 5-years-old, for "not keeping an eye on their parent while at the playground". Chilling, right ?

So, ok, don't disparage your ex if he's not hurting them. But if they report to you that he's hurt them, either physically or psychologically, tell them that it's abuse, and that next time he does his plays on them, they have to call the police.

Abused children MUST be told that what happens to them is not normal, acceptable behavior. In order to heal some day.
Posted by sissoucat on December 23, 2011 at 8:17 AM · Report this
sissoucat 127
@113 : you nailed it.
Posted by sissoucat on December 23, 2011 at 8:19 AM · Report this
Sorry, but with the freedom to do with ones body what one will ie an abortion, she really does have an added responsibility, unless abortion etc. aren't really a big deal then fuck it and pass out the coat hangers... IMO it seems like a very selfish and arrogant attitude displayed in her letter exhibiting a vast irresponsibility. Think you can't get pregnant by fucking without a condom ? Are you willing to gamble a human life on it ? Sheeeeit.....
Posted by Xam on December 23, 2011 at 1:01 PM · Report this
No, just tired

If I remember my courses in logic correctly, that is how arguments or cases are numbered. I could be wrong it was such a long time ago. As to the modern use of Latin, check out legal and medical terms, the origins of words (minute for example) and the scientific names for plants and animals. Latin was still taught in public high schools until the curriculum (another Latin term) was dumbed down. Although I understand it is making something of a comeback as a tool to train students to think logically, coherently, and concisely.

What I find tiresome is people who use obscure literary references or specialized acronyms.

Its real easy to say all of the parties involved are equally responsible to prevent pregnancy, which I don't disagree with in theory. My question is with its real world application in this particular case. The jist of my guestion to you was how do they actually share responsiblity equally once they rule out condoms? As you observed withdrawal is a joke. If they don't limit themselves to non-PIV sex then of necessity they are relying on PIT for contraception. Unfair though that is, what options are there that would allow for the responsibility to be shared equally? As with any pregnancy the physical and emotional consequences affects a woman more than a man. Also unfair, but also true.

Posted by snarky back again on December 23, 2011 at 1:41 PM · Report this
Auntie Grizelda is a real bitch... Outclassed...
Posted by Xam on December 23, 2011 at 2:05 PM · Report this
@118, you could still contract a STD from muff diving and rimming your lady friends (or maybe I got to them before you, and you don't even know me but would be actually "fucking" me as well nonetheless). And the STD junk that lives in the human oral cavity-yecch! Makes me want to stop having sex altogether. Then I meet some cute hetero girl and reach for the rubbers (everytime!).

I try to remember that the only safe sex is with Palmela and her 5 sisters, but that gets real old after a while...

Posted by ironvic on December 23, 2011 at 4:02 PM · Report this
Mr Hunter - I do. I only brought out the story for comparative purposes for those in similar situations. If anything, I got the best of all the outcomes.
Posted by vennominon on December 23, 2011 at 4:04 PM · Report this
Ms Cute - But don't you think Gertrude is a walking SLLotD waiting to happen?

And the more I considered it, the more it seemed that Twelfth Night, even if it didn't defeat Mr Savage, certainly would not play to his strengths.
Posted by vennominon on December 23, 2011 at 4:07 PM · Report this
@129 & @130: Holiday trolling has gotta be so much fun!
So..when you studied logic, were there any courses no common sense?
@130: Getting outwitted IS a real bitch, isn't it? LOL!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM · Report this
@129 & @130 in case you're NOT the same theoretic nonsense-spewing bozo:
Merry Christmas, Happy Hannakuh, Adeste Fideles, Feliz Navidad, be careful out there and don't hurt yourselves.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 23, 2011 at 6:31 PM · Report this
I've reread the letter from WTF and am zeroing in on something new this time: the accusation of feeling pre-menstrual for getting annoyed. I'll admit that that would infuriate me if I weren't infuriated before. We're all entitled to our feelings. Sometimes our feelings are more universally understandable than others. Our feelings aren't rational. That's what makes them feelings. At no time do we want to be dismissed as our feelings don't matter, especially not when we're feeling vulnerable as when just after sex. That's what the partner did. Maybe WTF was pre-menstrual. Maybe she wouldn't otherwise be annoyed with the text. But she was hurt, and that should be taken into account.

Something else strikes me about this relationship. If they spend any great amount of time together, wouldn't they be cycling together? Most women do. That is, if one is pre-menstrual, the other is also. Exceptions to this rule abound as when one is post-menopausal or taking birth control pills, but generally, even if there's no sexual relationship between women, menstrual cycles synchronize.
Posted by Crinoline on December 23, 2011 at 6:46 PM · Report this
echizen_kurage 137
@ Crinoline:

I think the whole menstrual synchrony thing has been largely debunked (or, at least, very heavily called into question.)

Personally, I've been in long-term relationships with other women, and I've lived in all-female dorms, and I've never noticed any sort of synchronization.
Posted by echizen_kurage on December 23, 2011 at 10:48 PM · Report this
re @134: Correction: "no" should be "on" in the second sentence.
I was laughing so hard I missed the typo.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 24, 2011 at 3:17 AM · Report this
137-echizen-- I've just looked at wikipedia on menstrual synchonization and see that you're right that it's not a definite thing. So I'll add my personal observation: It has always happened for me. When I live with a woman for a few months, our periods synchronize. I note that the article mentions recall bias and admit that could be at work here, but it sure doesn't seem like it (which is practically the definition of recall bias, I know).
Posted by Crinoline on December 24, 2011 at 5:18 AM · Report this
On menstrual synchronization,

It used to happen to my wife and her co-workers.

Posted by Married in MA on December 24, 2011 at 6:36 AM · Report this
You still haven't answered the question Carnak. Auntie Grizelda had to be the Monkees worst song. How appropiate to use a novelty song written for and sung by a manufactured music group on a cheezy 1960's TV show as a tag.

Posted by Snarky lives on December 24, 2011 at 8:18 AM · Report this

Teaching Latin is making a comeback as a tool to teach students how to think logically, coherently, and concisely?

How is Latin going to do that? That's just silly to me.
Posted by captainlobster on December 24, 2011 at 12:22 PM · Report this
@141: Spoken by a doofus whose unregistered tag keeps changing more often than a chameleon. I'd like to read your answer to captainlobster's question if you're too chicken to answer mine. Is that why you hide underground? Does your mom know you're out?
By the way, what does "Xam" stand for, your hero from Dungeons and Dragons? Your right or your left hand?
Once again, what's your point, Snorky? Oh, THAT's right. You HAVE no point!

@142 captainlobster: Spot on!!
It should be interesting to read Snorky's next set of idiotic comments live from the Roman Gladiator chariot races on the Banana Split Show.

Posted by auntie grizelda on December 24, 2011 at 1:53 PM · Report this
@142 and @143

I've been following this thread for a while. At first with amusement, but it has devolved into series of condescending personal attacks by auntie grizelda that have nothing to do with any of the letters. Get back on topic or stop posting.

A simple Google search would have provided you with your answers on Latin. Do some research before you further embarrass yourselves.…………

"An educated citizenry is a vital requisite for our survival as a free people." T. Jefferson

I'm sick to death of pontification by the ignorant. I get way too much of it from my soon to be recalled Governor; his puppet masters and their minions.
Posted by truth? and its consequences on December 24, 2011 at 3:42 PM · Report this
@144: Are you Snarky's mother?

Have you been reading what I originally posted regarding PIT's letter to Dan? Do you know how to read? If you're into Latin, that's up to you. Snarky's use of what he called Latin came off to me as ridiculous. As for personal attacks, Snarky and his imaginary playmates called ME names.

By the way, before you further embarrass yourself with mindless trolling, get back to the topics discussed in Savage Love, NOT Latin, or stop posting.

It appears as if you've already mastered ignorance. More's the pity.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 24, 2011 at 4:43 PM · Report this
Ahem, for Snorky, Xam, Ignorance and its consequences, and their ilk:

Snorky, the clueless doofus
Had a very pointed head;
What he considered wisdom
Others frankly called braindead!

Most of the other bloggers
Ignored his every futile word;
For someone with so much to say
It's funny he's unregistered!

Then one rainy Christmas Eve, auntie had to say:
"Snorky, with your rants so dumb, please go back home to your mum!"

Can't speak for other bloggers,
But as for being appropriate,
Snorky the clueless doofus
Named for a mastodon does fit!
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 24, 2011 at 4:50 PM · Report this
I repeat get back on topic or stop posting.
Posted by truth? and its consequences on December 24, 2011 at 4:50 PM · Report this
@147: So who died and made you God?
By the way, I noticed that you're not posting anything about the letters from PIT or SIP.
Practice what you preach, e pluribus moron.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 24, 2011 at 5:31 PM · Report this
How ironic that Dan Savage's column for this week bears the title "Good Friends".
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 24, 2011 at 5:32 PM · Report this
@147: Bully much?
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 24, 2011 at 5:59 PM · Report this
Peace. Joy. Hope. Faith. Trust.
Merry Christmas. Happy Hannukah.
Good will to all, and to all a good night.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 24, 2011 at 11:23 PM · Report this

I won't waste any more of my time reading the last two article you linked to. I read the first two articles, neither gave any sort of explanation of how learning Latin will teach you how to think logically, concisely and coherently. Also, the last two are from Helium and Clearly....

The second article said something about how you have to use logic and memory when constructing a Latin sentence but nothing about how that is so much more true of Latin than a living language like, oh, I don't know, Xhosa. Or even how learning Latin or any language employs logic more than a class in something practical like woodworking. Everything you do uses logic and memory to some extent.

I also find it more than a little strange that me asking someone to explain a weird claim made you angry about ignorance.

Generally, people who dislike ignorance welcome inquisitiveness. The only sense I can make of you accusing me of ignorance when I asked a question is that you're the person I asked and you don't have an answer.

That's fine. Maybe you misremembered.
Posted by captainlobster on December 25, 2011 at 11:57 AM · Report this
@81 (Shurenka) (and maybe some of the scientist SLOG commenters?) - Since when do sperm live in the female reproductive tract for a week? I've been reading Dr Shettles's book (… ) on sex selection (might try to conceive a little brother for our daughter this spring) and I was under the impression that sperm could survive there at most four days.
Posted by MarleyBarley on December 25, 2011 at 4:11 PM · Report this
argumentum ad hominem Auntie Grizelda
Posted by in vino veritas on December 26, 2011 at 8:39 AM · Report this
@144 & @147: From your highly illogical bouts of exaggerated hysteria, I didn't bother to read your "links" about Latin. I didn't have to. @152 just proved that you're about as clueless about language and logic as PIT and her partners are about preventing unwanted pregnancy.

@154: You still haven't answered captainlobster's question, Snorky.
All argument and no brains, huh? That won't get you very far in life, Vinnie Boobarino.

@152 captainlobster: BRAVO!!!! And LOL!! I didn't even bother to read the bogus "links" posted by doofus! and his constipation because I knew that reading anything he posted was a waste of time.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 26, 2011 at 12:14 PM · Report this

You're out of control.

Posted by Hunter78 on December 26, 2011 at 1:25 PM · Report this
ibid 154 and I'm curious why you think I would respond to 152 since it wasn't addressed to me.

Thank you Hunter78, perhaps you can contact some of the other long term posters to do another intervention.
Posted by in vito veritas on December 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM · Report this
152 If your question is a serious one, look up the history of law, mathematics, medicine, music, and science as a starting point. There were reasons why Isaac Newton and Galileo, to name just two giants, corresponded and published in Latin.

Personally I have absolutely no use for organized religion in general or the Roman Catholic Church in particular with its doctrine of papal infallibility.

My original point was that if you had questions about Latin you could start with a Google search to find your answers.

I could have referenced Greek, but its alphabet is even less intelligible than the cyrillic one and all the major works were translated into Latin. We still use the Latin alphabet and without Latin we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The links I provided required one simple Google search to find. They were provided as examples, not as explanation. If I have a question, don't understand a comment, or am just curious I do the research myself whenever I can.
Posted by truth? and its consequences on December 26, 2011 at 6:13 PM · Report this
PIT: Abortion. Now. Why is this even a question?

@152: Classical Latin often used periodic sentences, which have a much more complex structure than the typical English sentence. And when verbs come at the end of a sentence, you have to have the beginning of the sentence in your head, and then read to the end to understand it.

@109/111: I love cuddling after sex, and cuddling in general, but not everyone does all the time. Cuddling should be seen as just like any other activity: you talk about it and compromise. So if my partner texts after sex, "Hey, come cuddle with me for a few minutes please" is fine. Or just ask "Hey, wanna cuddle? Sleep? Fuck again? Get food? Take some time for ourselves on our phones?"
Posted by BlackRose on December 26, 2011 at 6:57 PM · Report this
@156 & @157: What? Out of control? ME? Little ol' me? Hark who's trolling!
You guys with nothing better to do crack me up, always, have, and always will. If I'm pissing any or all of you off, I must be getting someone's attention. I don't see any of my comments getting pulled.

@158: Thank you for the clarifications concerning the research of Latin through Google and use of different alphabets. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

@159: Thank you, BlackRose, for explaining Classical Latin even more.

Everybody have a safe, sane, healthy & prosperous 2012!
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 26, 2011 at 7:37 PM · Report this
dolly 161
Your threesome situation and more can be found here:
Posted by dolly on December 27, 2011 at 6:17 AM · Report this
Re: Latin. (I know this is off-topic for this group, but I'm bored and find the inoffensive discussion interesting.)

First, let me admit that I'm totally prejudiced in favor of Latin. All logic aside, I like the idea because I just like it. I've never taken Latin, but when I've learned a little here or there, it's always seemed interesting and wonderful.

Then I looked at Snark's webpages and don't think the arguments in favor of teaching Latin make sense. The one about how people enjoy it does, but the others don't. Sure studying Latin makes learning French easier, but I can't see that 3 years of Latin followed by 3 years of French is more efficient than just 6 years of French. If French was your goal, it makes more sense just to teach it.

Same for English vocabulary. If that's your goal, then reading a broad range of books in English with attention paid to the vocabulary is surely more efficient than studying Latin roots.

Same for English grammar. Grammar is important, so teach it. Don't start with Latin as though you needed to understand it in order to understand English.

Same for understanding the large handful of Latin phrases you see on public buildings or in legal and medical texts.

Which makes it sound like I agree with Lobster in 142, but I don't. I said I was prejudiced so here goes. The question is how teaching Latin helps students learn to think logically, coherently, and concisely.

The problem, as I see it, is that teachers could try to teach those things in any subject, but they don't. You could have a vocabulary class that focused on the nuances of words and how they can be used in different ways and how there's an elegance in seeing the historical connection in how words have changed in meaning over the centuries, but as a rule, vocabulary isn't taught that way in English classes. There's a chance that it is taught that way in Latin ones.

Grammar is usually taught in a way helps students avoid the worst of the grammar errors one runs into in English. That's all very well and good, but that's the minimum. At no point does one have the chance to understand the bare bones of the language, to understand the deep structures of how a sentence is constructed, really how it's built. English grammar could be taught that way, but it isn't. It hasn't for 70 years. (That number was pulled out of the air. 100 years? 50 years?) Somehow instead of reforming the English curriculum, the gaps are filled with Latin.

When teaching living romance languages, the emphasis is put on colloquial expressions. That's great if the goal is to get the students speaking right away. No sense having them memorize and conjugate a bunch of verbs if they're going to melt down the first time a French speaker asks "ca va?" or if they're going to translate "Ca m'est egal" as "that to me is equal" instead of "fine with me."

But then they're not really learning the structure and thought processes that go with a language when studying a foreign one. They're learning the exceptions when there's a longing, at least for some of us, to know the rules.

I wish English composition and expository writing could start with what used to be called rhetoric. I'd love it if logic were taught in English classes. Imagine if everyone knew what an ad hominem attack was and recognized them in the nightly news. The difference between cause and correlation isn't even spelled out in science classes. They jump straight to what is known from science but don't spend enough time on what's meant by proof. It applies to the social sciences also. It's easy to look at an historical event, but the meat of the subject is in how one event causes another-- or doesn't-- or has unintended consequences.

I can't be sure, but I suspect that people are drawn to Latin classes because Latin has become the dumping ground for many of the good ideas that used to be taught but that have been discarded in the name of efficiency.

Posted by Crinoline on December 27, 2011 at 9:47 AM · Report this
@162 (Crinoline), since you mentioned a topic I also love, I can't avoid adding my $0.02... Hopefully I won't bore anyone with this.

The old rationale for teaching the classics -- Latin, Ancient Greek, Classical Literature, Graeco-Roman Mythology, Philosophy, sometimes even Rhetorics -- was, I think, a continuation of the Greek idea of paidea or education: these are simply interesting topics that make a person deeper in that s/he becomes more capable of evaluating, understanding, and appreciating the heritage of the Western culture (which has its roots in Classical Antiquity).

Of course it's a lot of work. Of course there are more practical things one could do. And all the ones you mention are right: claiming that Latin helps you learn other languages is true, but beside the point. Learning English also makes it easier to learn German, but I think nobody who learns English ever learn it for this reason (and if they wanted to learn German they'd concentrate on German instead, thus avoiding German-English "false friends" like Gift ('present' in English, 'poison' in German).

So to me it's beside the point that learning Latin might help you learn Spanish or French; if your target are these two languages you should concentrate on them, not on Latin.

What Latin opens to you is a treasure chest of old Roman traditions -- a door to a different culture in the past, and one from which so many of our roots come from. (Why is there a Capitol in Washington? Why does "Republic" rhyme with "public"? Where does "subpoena" come from? Why do Harry Potter's spells often sound like Latin?... etc.) Besides being in itself a beautiful language, with a beautiful literature that can be enjoyed for its own merits ("oh passer deliciae meae puellae..."), just like French or Italian literature also can. All of that leads to a deeper appreciation of why we are the way we are -- like studying history or literature in general.

Advising people to really study Latin -- as opposed to simply learning declensions by heart ("rosa rosa rosam, rosae rosae rosā") -- is thus part of that idea about education as being not simply that which prepares us for doing the things we'll have to do in order to survive and flourish, but also that which shows us what human depth is and why it is valuable.

That is the real value, I think. One may claim that 'Latin trains your mind' (frankly, trying to understand the structure of any different language trains your mind; Australian aboriginal languages would be just as good as 'mental puzzles' to develop your analytical muscles as Latin) or 'helps your spelling' (except, of course, when English differs from Latin... in which case it doesn't) or 'makes you sound intelligent' (true to a certain extent, but this just results from 'cultural prestige', like speaking with a British accent, which is not a constant; besides, it can also make you sound pedantic or arrogant, as was the case with the Latin examples in this comment thread).

None of this really matters in the end. Latin is interesting because it's a real language that a certain people used to express ideas, thoughts, feelings. It's beautiful, and it's part of our history. What else is necessary?
Posted by ankylosaur on December 27, 2011 at 2:23 PM · Report this
We have lots of "threesome" sex toys to check out for any future experiences.
Posted by Castle Megastore on December 27, 2011 at 2:44 PM · Report this
We have a large assortment of toys for any future "threesome" experiences here -
Posted by Castle Megastore on December 27, 2011 at 2:47 PM · Report this
Crinoline & anklosaur!! I missed you!!!!

Thanks for sharing even further insights on Latin and other languages. I would like to study German, Italian, Japanese, and other langauges.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 27, 2011 at 3:13 PM · Report this
163-- What else is necessary? Ah, there's the crux of it. If you're going to spend public money on public education, there are going to be a lot of people who say that it shouldn't be on fun and games. After all, if "certain people" get beauty and interest out of Latin, why not teach video games and I Dream of Jeanie reruns for certain other people who find those beautiful and interesting?

To argue against that sort of thinking, you have to show that one is useful to the larger society while the other is not. You have to show that education isn't just for personal enrichment; that personal enrichment is going to serve the greater good in the form of the society's benefit in having people who understand the broad scope of human history, who can think analytically, concisely, critically, and logically. The pros and cons to teaching Latin might come down to a back and forth between those who think there's societal value in individuals following any personal enrichment and those who think individuals only serve society in concrete obvious ways.

(An analogy. The regulars on this comments column vary greatly, but we all might have in common a general feeling that the free expression of sexuality is an end in itself that needs no justification. I don't think it has to serve the greater society, but there are times when I have to defend my position by pointing out that the free expression can serve the greater society. Yet that's a stretch. Look at all the ways The Greater Society has sought to subvert sexual desire into narrow institutions. So it becomes the back and forth as above.)

166-Auntie G-- I missed you too. For a while there, it was like someone hacked your account.
Posted by Crinoline on December 27, 2011 at 5:33 PM · Report this
@167: Yeah---the trolls were running amok! I guess they finally went back to their caves. I suppose I helped provide some crazy holiday entertainment for a while. But actually I was really asking some angry(?) posters why they were getting so hostile over my original comment from @18.

All I said was that the prevention of unplanned pregnancy was the equal responsibility of all participants in a threesome. Then all hell broke loose among the argumentative. It was like a bunch of rabid, nonsense-spewing insaniacs were on their menstrual period, or last nerve, and I was standing on it.
I'm glad you're back!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 27, 2011 at 11:05 PM · Report this
Crinoline: Thankfully, nobody hacked my account; I just got egged on, and my bozo alert button went off.
DAMN---and I'm not drunk, stoned, or on my period, either! Hooo boy.
It's been an interesting week.
Posted by auntie grizelda on December 27, 2011 at 11:18 PM · Report this
@162/163 - Thank you for beautifully articulating everything I loved about my Latin classes in high school. I didn't realize exactly why I loved them so much until just now. You've given me a new appreciation for them, and I'm sincerely grateful. :)
Posted by MarleyBarley on December 27, 2011 at 11:29 PM · Report this
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