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Secrets and Lies

February 1, 2012

My husband is a very kinky submissive man. When we were dating, I found out that he had been talking to multiple people online and that he had met up with a professional dom a couple of times. I felt betrayed that he had done this all behind my back, even though I had told him that I would be down with him seeing a dom. (I even offered to buy him a session for his birthday!)

We got through it, and now our sex life is amazing. I tie him up, I lock his dick up, I dress him up. All I ask in return is that he be honest with me about who he's talking with online. Is that unreasonable? I know he chats with "women" online as a "woman," and I'm okay with that so long as I'm made aware of it. But today I found pictures on his phone of his cock in the chastity device I keep him in. He tried to lie but he came clean: He was chatting with a woman, it came out that he was a man, and she wanted to see pictures of his cock in his chastity belt.

Why lie? Honest to God, if he would have just told me the day he sent the pictures that he sent someone pictures of his cock, I would be okay with it! I also found another e-mail account he never told me about that he's using when he chats online as a woman. Again, no big deal! But I was under the impression that he used just this one chat program for chatting! Why hide it? My vanilla friends will be no help in this matter, and I feel pretty heartbroken. So I'm asking you.

He Isn't Telling Me Everything

Before I can respond to your question, HITME, I've gotta sacrifice a goat to the snooping-is-always-wrong Gods, or the snooping- is-always-wrong jihadists will cut my head off. It'll just take a sec: Snooping is always wrong! You invaded your husband's privacy! That was wrong! WRONG!

Moving on...

Your husband hit the jackpot when he met you, HITME. There aren't a lot of women out there who would embrace—much less marry—a man with his particular collection of kinks. You've been GGG and all you've asked in return is... total transparency and the immediate, real-time disclosure of all outside flirtations and contacts as they happen. Why can't the kinky ingrate honor this agreement? Only he knows the answer to that question, HITME, but I suspect one of two issues is at play...

Your husband may be ashamed—he may have been brutally shamed in past relationships—about the extent of his kinks and about just how much of his time and erotic energy his kinks consume. You may be completely sincere when you tell him you're okay with everything, HITME, so long as there's immediate and full disclosure. But he may fear that sharing the full extent of his online activities will leave you feeling either squicked out or threatened. So he downplays and minimizes, disclosing some but not all, because he doesn't want to lose you. If this is the issue, impress upon your husband that hiding shit from you represents a bigger threat to his marriage than full disclosure ever could.

Or...

Having and keeping sexual secrets may turn your husband on, HITME, and having a secret life could be another one of his kinks. Even if this is the issue, HITME, I think you two should be able to come to mutually agreeable terms that accommodate both his desire to have a secret and your need for full disclosure.

Here's a potential compromise: He doesn't keep anything from you, HITME, but he doesn't disclose in real time. So long as he's not being unsafe or neglectful, so long as his online activities remain online-only, he can carry on flirting and texting and pic swapping. But every few months, you get to depose his submissive ass. You get to sit him down and ask him questions, and he answers all your questions truthfully and opens up about any current secrets that your questions didn't uncover. This way, he can have all the erotic secrets he wants (he'll just have to make new ones every few months), and you can have the transparency you need (you just won't have it immediately). Good luck.


I'm a 29-year-old gay guy who's not sure where to find what I'm looking for. I'm turned on by the idea of a dominant guy, but most of the guys I attract are pure vanilla. When I look online at the fetish-friendly dating sites, most of the dom guys say shit like "If you have a list of things you will and won't do, you're not a sub." I want to give up control, but I don't want to be some guy's "bitch." Can there be dominance without degradation? Is a boyfriend who's an equal in life but in charge in the bedroom a unicorn? Where do I look?

Needs Include Controlling Empathy

The dominant boyfriend you're looking for is out there somewhere, NICE, you just need to keep looking. And remember: Sometimes, dominant boyfriends are made, not born. By which I mean: Don't rule out the vanilla boys you attract. A guy who likes you is gonna want to meet your needs, sexual and otherwise. If you give a vanilla boy a chance, and if you're honest about what turns you on, you may find that you awaken something in one of those vanilla guys that was there all along—a little dominant streak—but would've lain dormant if it weren't for you.

And you were right to run from those dominant tops who insisted that "true subs" don't have preferences, limits, or lists, NICE. Not even submissive guys who are into degradation and being someone's "bitch" should fall for—or submit to—that kind of crap.


Your question last week from the guy who "stumbled over" his brother's femdom sex blog reminded me of a funny story: My little brother came out to my conservative-but-not-particularly-religious Jewish parents in 1995. It was rough. Our parents refused to help pay for my wedding because I insisted on inviting my brother and his boyfriend. Mom and Dad are now rightly embarrassed by their behavior and they worship his husband. (It helps that my brother married a doctor—some stereotypes are true.)

Last year, my parents found out that my older brother—their straight son—is kinky. A vindictive ex hacked into his e-mail and sent a letter to everyone in his address book. Big bro has a dungeon, his current girlfriend is his slave, he's made BDSM porn. The e-mail came with pictures no mother would want to see. Mom, completely distraught, called her gay son: "Why can't Josh have a normal relationship!" she cried. "Like yours!"

So far as Mom is concerned, her gay son is normal and her straight son is a freak. Is that progress, Dan?

Brothers Done Shocking Mom

I don't know if it's progress, BDSM, but it's hilarious. And I trust that you're sticking up for your kinky straight brother now just like you stuck up for your gay brother back in the day.


Be sure to listen to me interrogate Ira Glass on the Savage Lovecast this week—when he's allowed to make fart jokes, he's a whole new man: thestranger.com/savage.


mail@savagelove.net

@fakedansavage on Twitter

 

Comments (202) RSS

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1
I love HITME's phrasing: "Honest to God, if he would have just told me the day he sent the pictures that he sent someone pictures of his cock, I would be okay with it! "

It sounds so detergent commercialish. "Sheesh! My husband and his secret cock pictures! I've tried everything!"

jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
Posted by inbed http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.com on January 31, 2012 at 4:58 PM · Report this
2 Comment Pulled (OffTopic) Comment Policy
nocutename 3
Great column this week: interesting questions, kind and thoughtful, and maybe even helpful responses, and the funniest story I've read/'heard' in a while.
All this and Ira Glass in the morning. And it's not even my birthday! Thanks.
Posted by nocutename on January 31, 2012 at 5:09 PM · Report this
mydriasis 4
@1

I love that you noticed that.
"Oy vey!"
Posted by mydriasis on January 31, 2012 at 5:13 PM · Report this
5
I think the "snooping-is-always-wrong" crowd might not have a leg to stand on given that she has the key to his cock cage. I'm guessing he doesn't have a lot of privacy privileges (and wouldn't want them). Maybe they should agree that she can check his accounts whenever she feels the need, and if he hides accounts from her they can come up with specific consequences, like no web access for 24 hours?

With people who are prone to lying (teenagers, for instance), it sometimes helps to avoid focusing on the lies themselves, and focus instead on whether generally the person is behaving decently to you and to others. As someone on here explained to me recently, a lie can reflect a desire for some privacy, some personal space...
Posted by EricaP on January 31, 2012 at 5:34 PM · Report this
6
Surprisingly apolitical column this week. We're still waiting for Santorum to dry up and blow away. Obama 2012!
Posted by spoon on January 31, 2012 at 5:37 PM · Report this
7
@Jill: LOL...let's hope that there's no ring around the collar.
Posted by Writer on January 31, 2012 at 5:57 PM · Report this
8
Snooping without just cause is wrong. However; once you have real reasons (not just jealousy or paranoia)to materially doubt a SO then ensuring your personal safety trumps the privacy rights of the SO. IMO when someone chooses to seriously lie to, deceive, and/or betray their SO all bets are off and they forfeit their right to privacy. No one has the right to put someone else's health or life at risk without that person's knowledge and consent.
Posted by beentheredonethatgotthetshirt on January 31, 2012 at 7:29 PM · Report this
9
@8 Me, I think some people are snoops, and some people can't stand being spied on. Those people shouldn't date each other.

But many people are in the middle. They don't want to date someone who constantly spies on them, but they can stand some degree of snooping (they give each other their passwords, for instance, so that the passenger can read out emails/texts for the person who is driving). I'm not a horrible snoop, but I couldn't stand to date someone who got furious if I read an email over his shoulder. We just wouldn't be compatible.
Posted by EricaP on January 31, 2012 at 7:42 PM · Report this
10
Hitme,

I don't think he wants to be tied to one person. He thinks if he tells, he loses control. He was poly before you married. He still is.

Posted by Hunter78 on January 31, 2012 at 7:54 PM · Report this
11
I'm voting for what's behind door two for HITME. He's definitely in to keeping secrets.

And snooping...so complicated! I think if it starts as an honest stumble and then continues because someone stumbled on a pile of santorum and they need to see how bad the problem is, then snoop away!
Posted by yo_in_Seattle on January 31, 2012 at 7:58 PM · Report this
12
I love Dan's advice to HITME. It's so perfect, and should make everyone happy, and, as we all know, Dan is all about the happy!

Letter 3 is sweet, awesome and hilarious. What a great column this week, Dan. Thank you so much!
Posted by monkeylover on January 31, 2012 at 8:36 PM · Report this
13
The advice to HITME is great, spot on. Also an interesting perspective on how it is deceit that hurts people, not necessarily conduct.
Posted by wxPDX on January 31, 2012 at 9:14 PM · Report this
14
As once again the letter does not make it obvious and one must assume that Mr Savage was privy to an indicator, I'll just say that the first letter would be much more interesting if HITME were male. I think I am going to start docking LWs about a third of a grade in sympathy if they rely on presumed heterosexuality, even with formerly reliable indicators such as "married" or "husband".

As for NICE, I think Mr Savage is on to something. This is just the result of personal observation, but being so fortunate as to find a sufficiently GGG vanilla partner who turns out to be adapatable enough to provide satisfaction greatly reduces the chance of power creep, at least for a male couple. I think it's different for female or mixed couples, though. I shouldn't put it in the unicorn class, but I've seen this sort of situation play out better long-term when one partner is mostly being GGG.
Posted by vennominon on January 31, 2012 at 9:20 PM · Report this
15
I think HITME is doing it to get caught and punished. He doesn't want you to be OK with it. So punish him and when he does it again, rinse, repeat . . .
Posted by BeeverShot on January 31, 2012 at 10:47 PM · Report this
16
Great column this week! People should chill about the "snooping" thing--I look at my husband's phone all the time for innocent reasons, which he's okay with, and if I came across something left there by accident it certainly wouldn't be because I was trying to sniff it out like some kind of detective.
Posted by Suzy on January 31, 2012 at 10:57 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 17
Yeah, HITME, here's another vote for door #2. I'm bettin' that your hubbie is into his secrets, & if you catch him/snoop on him, it only makes him more creative in how to sneak around on you. He should utterly worship you, BTW, Dan has the right of it. He's not gonna give up his online activities. So hopefully you can find some way to incorporate this into your play.

& NICE..keep listening to your gut. Anyone who wants you to submit all the way w/ no restrictions, right off the bat, is a schmuck. Keep looking. Don't rule out the vanilla becoming vanilla spice someday.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on January 31, 2012 at 11:04 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 18
If I said much of anything other than, nice work this week, Dan, I'd just be echoing other commenters above.

I think I'm just a skosh too old to be okay w/ someone having my passwords & random access to my phone. There's nothin' going on there or anything. Just, when I'm living w/ someone, I figure they have access to most of my life anyhow. I just want that tiny scrap of privacy to myself. Fortunately most folks I've dated recently feel similarly.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on January 31, 2012 at 11:52 PM · Report this
venomlash 19
Wow, the answer to HITME is one of the most nuanced pieces of advice I've read lately. I try to guess what Dan's recommendations will be before reading his response, but the possibility that HITME's man has a thing for dirty secrets did not occur to me. I guess that's the sort of thing you have to spend a few years in the business to pick up on. Call me a Savage fanboy if you want, but I'm just telling it like it is.
Posted by venomlash on February 1, 2012 at 3:47 AM · Report this
20
Uuuuuh a couple of things.

Dan's advice to HITME seems...don'tcha think...kinda lame?

And I felt like something was missing from the letter, anyway. Like, maybe she doesn't come across as GGG as she would like to believe. And that's why her husband feels ashamed.
Posted by PHOTALMAN on February 1, 2012 at 4:22 AM · Report this
21
Dan, I never normally would say this, but I think you're wrong on the first letter.

I think the guy didn't tell her about his online activities because he didn't trust his wife when she said she'd be okay with it.

After all, she said she'd be okay with him seeing a Dom, even going so far as to offer to pay for it... and when he saw a Dom, she freaked the fuck out. They had to have one of those long talks where she talked about how betrayed she was, and *eventually* they got through it.

How the hell was he supposed to believe her when she said she'd be okay with him chatting to other women online?

In his position, I wouldn't have believed her either.

Posted by Belgie on February 1, 2012 at 4:44 AM · Report this
22
Dan, I never normally would say this, but I think you're wrong on the first letter.

I think the guy didn't tell her about his online activities because he didn't trust his wife when she said she'd be okay with it.

After all, she said she'd be okay with him seeing a Dom, even going so far as to offer to pay for it... and when he saw a Dom, she freaked the fuck out. They had to have one of those long talks where she talked about how betrayed she was, and *eventually* they got through it.

How the hell was he supposed to believe her when she said she'd be okay with him chatting to other women online?

In his position, I wouldn't have believed her either.

Posted by Belgacom on February 1, 2012 at 4:50 AM · Report this
23
@ 22, Belgacom: I agree. Feeling (no matter what) that you cannot open up to your spouse *honestly* about what gets you off...

For someone like me, nothing gets me hotter and makes me wanna do anything like being with someone who can trust their deepest desires with me. Knowing that I won't judge or condemn, but perhaps even helping out to make my man's fantasies a reality.

Some people are shaped to feel they need to be "ashamed" of what actually gets them off. This is quite sad and totally unnecessary. Interconnectedness as people is the biggest turn on for me. But then, I've never been one to pick up a stray piece of strange, fuck 'em and send them on their way with cab fare. I like investing myself into someone for real.

Posted by pigeon park on February 1, 2012 at 7:03 AM · Report this
24
I have tips for both HITME and NICE. HITME says she "dresses him up". If I am correct that her husband is a crossdresser, then Dan is right on the money that he's probably hiding the sheer volume of exhibitionism. From my experience most crossdressers have an absolutely insatiable desire to be admired. The maddening thing for those of us who are attracted to them is that it's all a tease. Crossdressers rarely follow through with their online sluttiness. They only crave the attention, not the actual sexual conduct. So on the one hand, she doesn't need to worry that it will lead to something more. On the other hand, the behavior isn't going to stop. A better suggestion than Dan's is if she becomes handy with a camera, gets a FetLife account, and then starts taking and posting pix of her husband dressed, pointing out to the world what a slut "she" is. That way the husband gets all the lewd admiration he needs, and the wife gets to act as gatekeeper. If she's open to it, and it sounds like she might be.

As for NICE, all subs have (or should have) limits. However, in the scene there is the tiresome expectation that both doms and dommes are dominant all the time in the relationship, not just in the bedroom. What NICE should be looking for isn't a dom, but a top. A top in the real world is much more vanilla than a top in the BDSM scene. A BDSM top does all the kinky things a dom does, but outside of the bedroom treats his partner as an equal.
Posted by Marrena on February 1, 2012 at 7:09 AM · Report this
25
@21 - she freaked out because he wasn't upfront with her. I don't think it's unreasonable to be upfront with someone supportive of your kinks. She didn't freak out about the dom, she freaked out about the secrecy/lying. I don't think that's unreasonable.
Posted by ShakenTaken on February 1, 2012 at 7:10 AM · Report this
26
@ 24, Marrena: You make a lot of sense. I like this bit that you wrote:

"If I am correct that her husband is a crossdresser, then Dan is right on the money that he's probably hiding the sheer volume of exhibitionism. From my experience most crossdressers have an absolutely insatiable desire to be admired. The maddening thing for those of us who are attracted to them is that it's all a tease. Crossdressers rarely follow through with their online sluttiness. They only crave the attention, not the actual sexual conduct. So on the one hand, she doesn't need to worry that it will lead to something more."

I can see that. It's a bit like enjoying flirting casually with people you see on the street. You can enjoy *the attention* of flirting, but after that, it's all on you as to whether or not that would be enough.

I have found that a lot of people who are markedly very imposing outwardly; those who possess a strong, outer presence are Sometimes those who crave to give up control in the sack.. Allowing someone else to take up the slack of the burden of being in charge all of the time..

Dan's right that a GGG guy or woman could surprise you in fulfilling your wish to be dominated, but not emasculated or degraded. What's really so hot about treating your lover like dogshit? What kind of true satisfaction could that be? A lil' teasing and playfulness in the sack goes a long way.

I would rather know everything and deal with it all together than not know and feel that I wasn't enough of a person to be trusted with my man's desires.. Honesty is everything, man. It's a two-way street. I never minded making an example of my own honesty to make someone else more comfortable with theirs; you have to give it out to get it back.

And all that good stuff :-) .
More...
Posted by pigeon park on February 1, 2012 at 7:34 AM · Report this
Regular Polyhedra 27
"Dominants" that say anything about what a "real" or "true" submissive does have probably only chatted online or they're not mentally stable.
Posted by Regular Polyhedra on February 1, 2012 at 8:16 AM · Report this
28
Tying someone up, dressing them up and all that is quite fun, and cool. I'd rather lock up my man's goods in my mouth, or another available orifice..

As far as the cross-dressing and the online stuff goes, it may have been a line crossed having your husband send a picture of his dick to someone over the internet (or pic text ;) ).

In a way, it's not that much different than just jacking off with your iPad: it's just that you throw on a well-accessorized ensemble to complement that string or pearls.. Actual or liquid lol.

Even a gentle GGG person can demonstrate behavior normally associated with a Top. The whole idea of being nothing more than an absolute Top & Bottom is rather vanilla in itself. Life's more fluid and complex than that.

I myself am gay: no woman, no bi :) . I am also a long-haired, rock and roll-loving cat who loves to rock out and write (reading's cool, too :) ).

Because I'm about 5'9" and have shoulder-length brown hair (being of average attractiveness facially also helps). In a way, I'm already something of a cross-dresser, except it's hair. I've never had a desire to wear women's clothes. Not seriously anyway. I'd try on a frock if it would make my man happy. We can even dress up together. Why limit what you could possibly do?

I do find it worrisome when the desire to be dominated is mixed in with self-esteem issues and or a feeling that you don't deserve to be treated better, fairly, or with affection and respect.

I guess I do have a streak of 'Top' in me. I'd cater that to my man if he wanted to be a little less of a 'Top' than usual.

It all comes down to how well two people in a relationship really gel, and how well they can honestly communicate what gets them off.

I'm quite open-minded and generally a non-judgmental person. It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. If you're into who you're with, you'll always find a way to make the effort to understand and please who you're with, unless you're someone who doesn't give two shits about whether or not anyone you're fucking is getting off with you. It gets me *hotter* knowing I turned my man on as fully as I could.

The Truth Is Better (and Sometimes, Stranger:) ) Than Fiction.

The Truth That Shall Set You Free To Feel The Bliss Of Being Restrained;).

+~+
More...
Posted by pigeon park on February 1, 2012 at 8:28 AM · Report this
29
But if he wanted me to lock his junk up in some sort of chastity belt device, I'd do that!

Not sure why that'd be so hot for him, but it'd probably tickle me to see him wearing one!

Being a 'Top' is more about having the natural sort of personality to lead the way here and there in the sack. You can be a top without being a heartlessly-domineering, crude bastard. Balance...

Maybe HITME'S hubby is actually bi. I never really understood how men could cross-dress and not be into wanting outside cock. But then, that's just me.

The forbidden is always enticing.

Being a 'Top' is more about leading the way towards seducing who you're with into sheer ecstacy..

May It Be :) .
Posted by pigeon park on February 1, 2012 at 8:40 AM · Report this
30
I'm with the 'snooping is wrong' crowd because yes, sometimes people do want to have their own private thoughts and do not necessarily want to hurt other people.

I've beentheredonethatandgottheshirt too, and had some terrible experiences with insecure snoopers who gave me absolutely no space and no privacy. It was driven by their incessant need to seek out any and all possible negative thoughts, ideas or anything else 'scary' to justify their constant fears. At some point, you wind up just going "oh hell, you want it, here it IS: Boooo!" and just running them off. And really, LW#2 demonstrates what that is all about! Why is it repressive conservatism inevitably brings out the twisted kinky?

I have one ex who could have been (be?) similarly vindictive. She did make some untrue claims (of a sexual nature) about me and what happened to cause our demise, but she didn't dish out all the dirt she could; maybe because I had pictures to back up my version of our exploits. Thankfully, we have both moved on and appear to be settled happily into new relationships.

I don't think that's the truth in the case of LW1 - I'm with the folks opting for door #2 - part of what gets him off is the sneaking - it's not as much fun just being out in the open and including her. I'd bet that, not just the deceit, but that part of it excludes her, is what bugs her.
Posted by asdfqwerty_has_dogs on February 1, 2012 at 8:53 AM · Report this
31
@30 if that is his kink (excluding her), you can't blame her for being frustrated. He didn't tell her about that kink early on to see if she wanted to date/marry someone who was tweaked that way... and he still hasn't admitted to it. Maybe because he hasn't admitted it to himself.
Posted by EricaP on February 1, 2012 at 9:04 AM · Report this
32
@ 30: If HITME wants to be secretive, then be secretive and cover yer damn tracks, then!

I equate what's going on to being caught masturbating by someone else. The distinction here is that HITME's wife found out her hubby sent a pic of his cock to some other dom chick over the 'net.

Most people have something sexy, a bit illicit or secretive that they turn to to get themselves off. Shit, I'm 42 and I *still* masturbate at least once a day. So much for libido decreasing with age..

Sneaking off is only ok if he contains the action to himself (no consummated physical cheating with anyone else other than his wife) and *moreover keeps track of his evidence*, then what's the big deal? Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and desires. That's why people in happy relationships still have a wank in solo privacy. It's allowed! No one person can fulfill someone's every need.

Respect for one another's feelings and honesty is the way to go. A balance must be struck.
Posted by pigeon park on February 1, 2012 at 9:08 AM · Report this
33
Scenario 3: He's cheating on her. That's what I think.
Posted by koshkamat on February 1, 2012 at 9:11 AM · Report this
34
I just have to say, fuck that guy who poses as a girl online to exchange pictures with other girls. Given how much Dan bitches about that sort of shit going on on Craigslist, I'm surprised it was just sort of overlooked in his response.

It's hard enough for girls to find other girls out there without half of the people they are talking to being guys pretending to be someone they aren't. The guy is lying to his extremely understanding wife, which is bad enough, but he is also apparently lying to everyone he meets online as well. Am I the only one that sees that as wrong? Am I the only one that would have responded with a resounding dump that lying piece of shit?

Maybe I'm just overly sensitive. :P
Posted by Dubstep on February 1, 2012 at 9:11 AM · Report this
35
(Sorry to hog space here and everything but...)

@ 31, EricaP: Great point you made:

"...if that is his kink (excluding her), you can't blame her for being frustrated. He didn't tell her about that kink early on to see if she wanted to date/marry someone who was tweaked that way... and he still hasn't admitted to it. Maybe because he hasn't admitted it to himself."

Has he admitted it to himself?? THAT'S the real question, here.

They just need to throw down, hash it out and get real. There's no other way around it, really.
Just be as brave as you can, as honest as you can.

Just do your best and the rest usually takes care of itself, I've found.
Posted by pigeon park on February 1, 2012 at 9:15 AM · Report this
36
Why Bother dressing up as a girl (when you're a man) to pick up other girls??

Wouldn't one go through all of that to get some dick, instead of some poon-tang?

It takes all kinds, I guess!
Posted by pigeon park on February 1, 2012 at 9:17 AM · Report this
37
@34, ya gotta take everything on the internet with a grain of salt. If you're going to be pissed off to discover that the girl you've been chatting with has a dick, then you should probably expect to be pissed off pretty often.
Posted by EricaP on February 1, 2012 at 9:25 AM · Report this
38
@36 you are mistaking what HITME's husband is doing. He's mainly sharing pix of himself dressed up as a woman with other men who dress up as women. Very few cis-women are into that sort of thing. I happen to be one of them. The woman he shared the pix of his locked-up junk was another. The rarity of the female interest must have been hard for him to resist. Usually other CD's aren't interested in cockpix, they are all about the stockings and lingerie.
Posted by Marrena on February 1, 2012 at 9:36 AM · Report this
39
@ 38, Marrena: Thanks. Yeah: I must've missed that part of the 1st letter:

"..you are mistaking what HITME's husband is doing. He's mainly sharing pix of himself dressed up as a woman with other men who dress up as women."

Gotcha. It's a bit like playing 'Dungeons (no pun intended? ;-D lol) & Dragons', but instead of role-playing as some whacko wizard or some shit, you're dressing up in stockings, a halter top and mini-skirt..

I *have* pretended to be a chick to get straight guys off on the 'net before (who hasn't done a lil' of that for the hey of it ;) ), but I wouldn't (this is just me) wanna or need to hang out with other people like me trying to do the same thing: pretending to be a chick to get some straight, etc. guy off.

I sometimes wonder if the cross-dressing fetish, and even bi-ness, is a consequence of a distant mother figure. Who knows?

So, really, it's a bit like sharing enthusiasm for collecting vintage baseball cards, when in effect, the token baseball card is lingerie, stockings and some lurvly fuck-me pumps!

To each their own, as the great saying goes.
Maybe I should try cross-dressing. I'd probably look like a right asshole, but that could be part of the goof in trying it all out for size!

:-)
Posted by pigeon park on February 1, 2012 at 9:50 AM · Report this
40
Grammar police here again ...

What's with multiple "XXX asked Terry and I YYY"
on the current Ira Glass Podcast?

C'mon Dan, you DO know better!
Posted by markko on February 1, 2012 at 9:55 AM · Report this
41
Well, drag queens crossdress to get a wider spectrum of available men, but that's a different sort of crossdressing altogether. Most crossdressers aren't gay. The majority tend to be bi, but often bi with other crossdressers, so not your typical sort of gay man. Drag queens are gay.
Posted by Marrena on February 1, 2012 at 9:59 AM · Report this
42
It may simply be that HITME's husband is compensating for the lack of control in his daily life. Isn't it human nature to want some control somewhere? Happy as he may be in his submission, it just seems natural to want some small area of his life that's just for him.
Posted by Mr. J on February 1, 2012 at 10:16 AM · Report this
43
Re HITME, I'm gonna go with "likes secrets". That one will be a tough kink to break, not least because you can't know if you've broken it or just driven it underground.

If that is his kink, it seems she could do well to make honesty more rewarding than secrets. There are plenty of ways to do that, from the slow handjob interrogation/indoctrination (one of my personal favorites) to secretly monitoring his activities and contouring his rewards and punishments accordingly.

Good luck, HITME. You're a treasure, and any sub would be lucky to have you playing along with them.
Posted by allfullup on February 1, 2012 at 10:23 AM · Report this
44
Ah, I didn't realize he was dressing as a girl for other guys dressing as a girl. I thought he was sending pictures of actual girls claiming to be them, which happens all the damn time. And really sucks. :P
Posted by Dubstep on February 1, 2012 at 10:35 AM · Report this
45
@41 "often bi with other crossdressers"

Marrena, do you tend to see an evolution, where they start out seeing themselves as just straight, then gradually admit the cross-dressing is important to them, then gradually admit they're interested in other men who cross-dress? And if so, do you see more of a tendency for them to want sex with people who have both breasts and cocks, or more of a tendency to want sex with people who just have cocks or breasts (not both)?
Posted by EricaP on February 1, 2012 at 10:44 AM · Report this
46
I am more in line with Mr. J's line of thinking than with the possibility that HITME's husband has a secret kink for keeping secrets. I think this is more about having some aspect of his sexuality that is within his control. I also see this as being about maintaining some autonomy.

For some people, autonomy matters, for others it's of less importance. Our esteemed Ms. EricaP has stated many times that (in her approach) married people tell each other everything. Dan endorses full disclosure as well. But I don't think that is something that works for everyone. I think I'm one of those people.

I've been married a long long time. More than half of my lifetime, literally all of my adult life. And I didn't figure out until fairly recently that I reallyn do need to have something that is just mine. It sounds fairly childish and selfish, but I really don't think it is. Some people need to maintain that sense of me separate from the we of the relationship.
Posted by catballou on February 1, 2012 at 11:06 AM · Report this
47
I came at this whole crossdressing thing with a completely open mind, but I have to say that from my experience crossdressers tend to have remarkably similar sexualities and psychologies.

Usually the crossdressing comes before the deciding whether gay or straight. The crossdressing itself starts either in childhood or early teenaged years. Of course then it raises questions. But usually crossdressers identify as completely straight until they go all pink fog and really get into the crossdressing. When dressed they usually identify as straight women and over time that starts to make them wonder what it would be like to give blowjobs and be the receiver in anal sex while dressed. But almost always they are emotionally interested in women. The ideal for most crossdressers seems to be as a submissive serving a dominant woman who occasionally "forces" them to serve men, often while in chastity.

From what I've seen crossdressers generally love bondage, are submissive, and love to serve women. With the lack of dominant women out there into them, the more heteroflexible ones tend to fall into CD-CD sex hookups, but those don't tend to be emotionally intimate relationships.
Posted by Marrena on February 1, 2012 at 11:20 AM · Report this
48
I came at this whole crossdressing thing with a completely open mind, but I have to say that from my experience crossdressers tend to have remarkably similar sexualities and psychologies.

Usually the crossdressing comes before the deciding whether gay or straight. The crossdressing itself starts either in childhood or early teenaged years. Of course then it raises questions. But usually crossdressers identify as completely straight until they go all pink fog and really get into the crossdressing. When dressed they usually identify as straight women and over time that starts to make them wonder what it would be like to give blowjobs and be the receiver in anal sex. But almost always they are emotionally interested in women. The ideal for most crossdressers seems to be as a submissive serving a dominant woman who occasionally "forces" them to serve men, often while in chastity.

From what I've seen crossdressers generally love bondage, are submissive, and love to serve women. With the lack of dominant women out there into them, they more heteroflexible ones tend to fall into CD-CD sex hookups, but they want to love and serve women.
Posted by Marrena on February 1, 2012 at 11:22 AM · Report this
OutInBumF 49
"Lain", Dan?! WTF? You really dug deep for that one, man.
Posted by OutInBumF on February 1, 2012 at 11:36 AM · Report this
Puty 50
Just skimmed the comments so I hope I'm not repeating a suggestion someone else made but here's a thought: could the husband in letter #1 keep a naughty diary documenting his adventures? It could, in turn, play a role in disclosure to his wife. Maybe it could be locked up with a key for bonus boner-making, if he's got a secrecy fetish.

And preemptively: since this would probably lead to him writing fantasies (which would make it harder for his wife to know what's going on during approved Diary Inspections), maybe a rule could be made that he must document all facts in black ink -- and any additional writing (i.e. fantasies) would have to be in another colour.

Just a thought!
Posted by Puty on February 1, 2012 at 11:38 AM · Report this
51
@48, thanks, Marrena. Interesting that (many of) these men think of themselves as alternately man and woman, but always straight. Myself, I think of myself as a bit queer when I play with cross-dressing men. But maybe I'm just flattering myself.

@46 - just want to clarify that my ideal is complete honesty between spouses, but I'm learning to accept that I'm not actually going to get that.

Posted by EricaP on February 1, 2012 at 11:45 AM · Report this
52
@HITME:

Dan just proposed monthly interrogation scenes. I suggest taking maximum advantage of this! :D
Posted by gromm on February 1, 2012 at 12:53 PM · Report this
balderdash 53
Man, I definitely feel where NICE is coming from. I'm kinda switchy, and there are a lot of elements of kink that appeal to me from both top and bottom perspectives, but humiliation and degradation are HUGE turn-offs.

I don't know, man, hang in there. Maybe look around for somebody who's a little bit sensitive and switchy, not specifically for a top. Like Dan said, somebody can learn to be a top even if they don't think of themselves that way already.
Posted by balderdash http://introverse.blogspot.com on February 1, 2012 at 1:04 PM · Report this
54
@46, 51 -- part of the problem is alluded to when Dan talks about monogamish relationships and monogamy being hard: it's difficult for someone to be everything for someone else. Not simply because we can't, but because the person for whom we would like to be 'everything', er, doesn't want that either.

I sometimes think it's better to let go of any absolute aspirations (in the philosophical sense) and concentrate on the good things we do share, when we're thinking about 'we'; and be proud of the fact that our SOs also have their own 'I' place of autonomy. Whatever my SO 'truly' is, it's more than what I see; and so am I. And in that there is something that is fundamentally positive.
Posted by ankylosaur on February 1, 2012 at 1:22 PM · Report this
Helix 55
I love the advice to HITME. Spot on, I think.
Posted by Helix on February 1, 2012 at 1:26 PM · Report this
johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt 56
NICE: The truth is no relationship is ever the fantasy you would make it out to be. The Dom you are seeking is out there but being human he will fall short sometimes.
Posted by johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt on February 1, 2012 at 1:28 PM · Report this
57
Regarding letter number 1, you left out a 3rd possibility, Dan. Maybe he's a complete jerk who is flirting with other people online and doesn't care how his partner feels about it, even though he has it pretty damn good.
Posted by truthspeaker on February 1, 2012 at 1:43 PM · Report this
58
@31, I object to "the snooping is ok if you find something" bit.

I understand she feels violated; I think she probably has been, but I also think expectations have to be appropriate. He is engaging in activities that she has essentially cleared in the singular, but not the plural. I think Dan is onto something when he talks about how much time and energy the husband invests.
Posted by asdfqwerty_has_dogs on February 1, 2012 at 2:34 PM · Report this
59
@51 EricaP
Is full disclosure at all times necessary for there to be complete honesty? Does simply not being able to know some things, even things that are not a violation of your boundaries, drive you crazy?
Posted by Mr. J on February 1, 2012 at 3:05 PM · Report this
60
@54 ankylosaur
Beautifully put.
Posted by Mr. J on February 1, 2012 at 3:10 PM · Report this
61
NICE, what @24, @27, & @56 said in spades.

Particularly while you're a newbie, do not engage with someone who uses the phrase "not a true sub" or gives you any dismissive attitude about your limits.

It's a little hard to determine where on the kink scale you're falling. There's nothing wrong with being a scene sub (which sounds a bit like what you're describing). It also sounds like you've done your research. At this point what you need is patience, a bit of luck, and a large enough pool to fish in. If you're not in a metro area where there's a visible kink community, go to an event (I'd suggest something medium scale to start with rather than IML or Folsom--they're too damn big and all tourists). Go with a wingman if you can. Go without expectation. Chat with people. Talk about what you're into (or think you're into). See what presents itself.

And yes, dominance without degradation is totally possible. It's not terribly common (there's an implicit element of degradation in D/s). When does the line get crossed into degradation for you? Be as flexible as you can with that in seeking partners. They don't know where your boundaries are, and their experience may be with someone who wanted the degradation, so keep the lines of communication open.

Good luck and have fun.
Posted by usagi on February 1, 2012 at 3:11 PM · Report this
62
Re Hitme,

Since when does "I dress him up," mean he's a cross-dresser? I assumed she was dressing him In his bondage gear. She wasn't otherwise shy to describe his kinks.
Posted by Hunter78 on February 1, 2012 at 3:12 PM · Report this
63
@58 it was #8 who said snooping is okay if you find something. That's not my point.

Me, I think people should evaluate early on if they are snooping-compatible with their partners, and not expect that other person will change radically to meet their needs. People soon figure out that I'm endlessly curious; if someone sees that curiosity as unacceptably intrusive (or as a sign of paranoia), they should just dump me. Same if they see me as too indiscreet. It's not likely to change.
Posted by EricaP on February 1, 2012 at 3:16 PM · Report this
64
I think that the husband in the first letter has it pretty darn good. He ought to be more appreciative of his partner and consider the feelings of someone other than himself.
Posted by ScarletEmpress on February 1, 2012 at 3:21 PM · Report this
65
@59 None of this drives me crazy. Preferring to know what's going on in his life is different from going crazy if I don't know.

And I'm getting more used to the idea of reasonable transparency rather than complete transparency.

But there are consequences: I don't trust him implicitly the way I used to a few years ago. I watch his actions, rather than assuming he'll keep his promises. That disturbs him, but he understands what it comes out of.
Posted by EricaP on February 1, 2012 at 3:31 PM · Report this
66
I said snooping without just cause is wrong and eliminated jealousy and paranoia as justifications for snooping. I repeat, no one has the right to so break trust with someone that they endanger that person's health, well being, and/or life. It is the same standard used by police and the government with respect to criminal activity and mental illness. A person's right to privacy has never been absolute and is always curtailed when their actions represent a danger to themselves or others. I don't say snooping is always justified or always wrong. It depends on the circumstances.
Posted by beentheredonethatgotthetshirt on February 1, 2012 at 6:19 PM · Report this
67
I feel like these discussions tend to devolve into trying to find a bright-line rule, and I think that gets away from Dan's goal of trying to find a workable solution, so with that mindset...

@63 I agree with you completely - they should find out early on if they're compatible with the level of disclosure/privacy each partner needs. You can remove all of the sex/kinky from the equation and substitute any other relationship issue you like, and this question is just as important. I definitely think she's got a right to be upset, which lead me to...

@64 ...he does have it good. She's been flexible and met him, he needs to be much more considerate of her feelings and needs.

I am just reminded of the parable of the scorpion and the frog (not in the bible, I know), and thinking she may find it easier to adjust her expectations.
Posted by asdf_hasdogs on February 1, 2012 at 6:35 PM · Report this
thecheesegirl 68
I would just like to say that this is yet another Savage Love/SL comment thread that has given me immense insight on my own marriage.

Also, it seems to me that, as a general rule (with plentiful exceptions), women tend to be more on the "I want to know everything as it happens, and I tell you everything as it happens", whereas men tend to want more allowances for secrecy. Anyone agree/disagree?
Posted by thecheesegirl on February 1, 2012 at 6:40 PM · Report this
69
My boyfriend and I don't invade each other's privacy, but we don't maintain or expect ridiculous amounts of it either. He can look over my shoulder when I'm typing, answer texts on my phone, check something in my email if I forget and have to call him for it, etc, and I do the same. And hell yeah if I saw an email with a suspicious tag line, or he was acting all weird about his phone, I would definitely snoop.
Posted by Caralain on February 1, 2012 at 6:57 PM · Report this
70
@68 the cheesegirl
That's my feeling-- that I want a little privacy. She says she wants the real time data thing but doesn't exactly walk the talk. I trust her absolutely but she really should admit that she doesn't tell me everything.
Posted by Mr. J on February 1, 2012 at 7:12 PM · Report this
71
I am a woman who values privacy, independence and solitude and who (for the time being at least) knows my bf isn't looking for anything beyond my mad skillz. (Yes of course he has fantasies.)
But still. Anyone who says they can run across an SO's open email or other account and resist the temptation to look is either lying or superhuman.
And anyone who expects complete transparency is delusional. For one, that presupposes the SO knowing what they want/feel themselves, which is rare enough.
Posted by chi_type on February 1, 2012 at 8:37 PM · Report this
72
I agree with EricaP that snooping compatibility needs to be discussed early on. I'm not an overly private person, but I do feel that my email account is sacred. I've told my last two girlfriends that if I ever discover that they've been in my email account that it is a deal breaker and there will be no second chances. I was very upfront and honest about it, "you can go through my clothes, wallet, phone, whatever, but the second you look through my email account uninvited we're over." I never leave anything open on a shared computer, because I feel that if you do that then you're just asking for trouble. My last gf was overly inquisitive, but since she knew how strongly I felt about it, never (to the best of my knowledge) went into my account. My current gf wouldn't have even thought of doing it anyway, so it isn't an issue. Its one more important thing that needs to be discussed early, and potentially often.
Posted by ihatenicknames666 on February 1, 2012 at 8:52 PM · Report this
73
As regards HITME's letter, here's another possibility, which is how I was reading it: maybe she claims to be (and wants to be) more GGG than she is. Maybe she gives permission to indulge his kinks because it's what she believes she SHOULD do, but each time he tries she finds some reason why THAT way was not acceptable, and so he feels the only real way to indulge his kink is to do it in secret.

Basically, maybe she is, deep down, bothered by the kink, and is using his not telling her of every instance individually as a means of rationalizing her displeasure after the fact.
Posted by TheRob on February 1, 2012 at 9:52 PM · Report this
74
I think Dan missed the point with HITME. There's no right or wrong answer regarding whether or not she has the right to know about the chatting, but she definitely has the right to have her husband behave as he's agreed to behave. He agreed to disclose, then he passive-aggressively didn't disclose.

The real question is what information does she want and why will it make her not feel heartbroken. She claims that she's OK with the chatting and sessioning, but clearly she's not. She hit the roof when she first caught him, and she's taken to spying to try to catch him. Is it any wonder he hasn't taken her at her word that she's OK with it?

Would she be OK with a blanket, "I chat every day. Just assume that."? Because that's probably what we're dealing with here. What about not knowing about the chatting breaks her heart?

Once she figures out why this bothers her so much, they need to make a new arrangement that they can both live with. Maybe she really doesn't want to know when he's chatting. This would be like the arrangement I have with my wife with respect to masturbation. She doesn't want to walk in on me, so there's a certain amount of intentional ignorance, i.e. if she wakes up at 2am to go pee and I'm not in the room, she doesn't go try to find me!

Maybe another option would be that he needs to ask for permission. He wants her to own him. Maybe that would be showing her enough respect that she wouldn't feel heartbroken.
Posted by lorcha on February 1, 2012 at 10:01 PM · Report this
75
@74 - "She claims that she's OK with the chatting and sessioning, but clearly she's not."

Perhaps it's not the chatting and sessioning that she's upset by, but the fact that her husband is deliberately witholding information from her. Personally, I'd be way more hurt that my partner was hiding things from me after agreeing to be completely honest and transparent.
Posted by Sweetprey on February 1, 2012 at 10:46 PM · Report this
76
@EricaP, who wrote:
But there are consequences: I don't trust him implicitly the way I used to a few years ago. I watch his actions, rather than assuming he'll keep his promises. That disturbs him, but he understands what it comes out of.


Indeed. But since human beings are so convoluted, I learned early on that we have to watch other people's actions. Not because other people are 'bad', but because... because we ourselves often don't know exactly why we do what we do. If asked for reason or rhyme, or at least a pattern, we come up with something that later on we'll have to adhere to in order not to sound inconsistent, and that feels like a constraint.

Implicit trust is a good idea in principle, but because we're such beings with an inherent element of chaos in it, it ends up never lasting very long, or then being restricted to only certain things. (I have implicit trust that my wife will take care of our daughter to the best of her knowledge in my absence; she has the same trust in me. Whether or not she'll keep her promise of not working till late at night on Saturdays and going to sleep at a more reasonable time, that I don't know. Because I can't also really guarantee that I'll keep my own promises, even though I fully intend to.)
Posted by ankylosaur on February 2, 2012 at 2:33 AM · Report this
77
@EricaP, in fact, if personal observation is taken into account, it is interesting to note down precisely what things end up being difficult to adhere to, what promises are difficult to keep (even though you really wanted to, and you agree it's a good idea). Both for ourselves -- we may learn a few things about ourselves we don't know yet -- and for our relationships -- we may learn a few things about our partners that they aren't articulating, or maybe even don't know themselves yet.
Posted by ankylosaur on February 2, 2012 at 2:35 AM · Report this
78
I think @71 is saying the same thing I am about being realistic about what to expect from other human being.

@74 - I like your take on this. Everyone has taken her at face value when she says she encourages and supports it, but there is the art of damning with faint praise, and she may not in reality be accepting of his kink.
Posted by asdf_hasdogs on February 2, 2012 at 5:28 AM · Report this
79
@ 57: truthspeaker. If I may quote you:

"Regarding letter number 1, or a guy named Bi-Bi Bob, you left out a 3rd possibility, Dan. Maybe he's a complete jerk who is flirting with other people online and doesn't care how his partner feels about it, even though he has it pretty damn good."

Spot on truth you speak here. Well said. Because what you spoke of is how I think and feel about the above lovely mindfuck of man (BB Bob), I now feel even more right and confident about letting go of that sort of cruel nonsense.
Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 7:23 AM · Report this
80
.... @ 79 continued....

I'm gay, not bi. Doesn't matter who you are, what you have or what bullshit you try to sell me: I won't be with someone who pitches for both teams. In other words, I think this is over.
Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 7:26 AM · Report this
81
Another possibility for the first letter is that the person writing in isn't as GGG to their BF as indicated. They seem on the defensive "I'd approve if he just told me!" I think he may have told in the past and not liked the response.
Posted by o76923 on February 2, 2012 at 7:53 AM · Report this
82
Just listened to the podcast. Hearing Ira Glass say "Take the cock out of your mouth" was the best thing ever. Hot and adorable at the same time.

Dan, you need to have guest hosts more often--it really freshens up the podcast; it makes you funnier to have someone there to riff off of. I loved the Lucy shows mostly b/c having her there made you that much more entertaining.
Posted by SixGables http://sixgables.etsy.com on February 2, 2012 at 7:59 AM · Report this
83
@48 - As a sometimes x-dresser and heteroflexible guy, yep, you've pretty well nailed it. Minus the bondage and chastity part, but just speaking for me.

Are you a man or a woman?
Posted by RandomAnonBiGuy on February 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM · Report this
84
for Dan and Terry--Mazel tov!
Posted by Marrena on February 2, 2012 at 8:52 AM · Report this
85
Hey... HITME here. I was worried to log on here and possibly find people completely slaying me but I'm pleasantly surprised to see there was definitely some more good tips. Thanks everyone. The first post made me laugh out loud.
Posted by hitme on February 2, 2012 at 8:53 AM · Report this
86
@o76923 @81

>> They seem on the defensive "I'd approve if he just told me!"
>> I think he may have told in the past and not liked the response.

I agree with you. I think that's what happened when he actually got himself a Dom. She freaked out, despite saying she was okay with it and would even pay for it.
Posted by JohnF on February 2, 2012 at 8:53 AM · Report this
87
HITME here... thanks for being nice, and the extra advice is appreciated too. I loved the first post!
Posted by hitme on February 2, 2012 at 8:56 AM · Report this
88
NICE, I've never found the fetish dating sites particularly helpful. They're filled with fantasists who never go further than their laptops and who have an unrealistic, overly simplistic, binary understanding of BDSM. They just. don't. get. it.

I'd say keep going with the vanilla--they can be surprising and a lot more authentic. Another option would be to look for a local "munch" (Google: BDSM munch) which is a *social* gathering for BDSM folks. It's not a play party, it's usually held at an un-sceney restaurant, and people don't dress up for it. It can be a great way to find actual kinksters.

Good luck!
Posted by citydog on February 2, 2012 at 9:16 AM · Report this
89
Welcome, HITME! Thanks for joining in... if you have more to add about your situation, or your thoughts on how workable the advice seems, we're all ears :-)
Posted by EricaP on February 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM · Report this
seandr 90
@87: Welcome HITME. Here's my perspective, FWIW.

My wife couldn't be any less interested about what I do with my computer - porn, chat, hookup sites, whatever - as long as it doesn't involve kids, a real-life relationship, or me losing all of our money.

But if she did, I would tell her that she should just assume that I have done or will do just about any kind of computerized sexual interaction she can think of, and hell no, I will not file a report every time I do.
Posted by seandr on February 2, 2012 at 12:16 PM · Report this
91
@76/77 - good advice, ankylosaur. I'm working on finding the right tone when he promises something. I don't want to be dismissive/contemptuous of his promise (to be home for dinner, or take me out Friday night, or whatever), even as (internally) I don't want to rely on it. I'm trying for a brisk manner, moving the conversation along...

And as you point out, there's a similar issue when I promise things... I don't want to undermine myself by saying something like: "Honey, I'll pick up your dry-cleaning today, unless of course I forget [because I'm a ditz]."

I like your advice to note what things "end up being difficult to adhere to," even as I also don't want to obsess about our screw-ups and rehash it endlessly.

Growth while living in the moment... maybe I need to go back to my cognitive behavioral therapist for a touch-up...
Posted by EricaP on February 2, 2012 at 12:45 PM · Report this
92
@ 90, seandr: Sounds like someone I know, and would rather not know anymore, with all due respect to the scenario, and you, by extension:

"My wife couldn't be any less interested about what I do with my computer - porn, chat, hookup sites, whatever - as long as it doesn't involve kids, a real-life relationship, or me losing all of our money."

That about says it all.

Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 12:47 PM · Report this
93
@84 - what's the happy occasion?

Posted by EricaP on February 2, 2012 at 12:51 PM · Report this
94
Goodbye Bob. I'll save you the trouble of running away from my ever wanting or needing you by me being the one to cut out first. Besides, I don't belong here in any capacity. Sorry everyone: I needed to say this.. Peace.
Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 1:03 PM · Report this
95
The end as a beginning is still an end.
Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 1:04 PM · Report this
96
HITME, a question for you to seriously ponder: What exactly do you think you are gaining, by requiring full disclosure of an act that you claim to have already given the green light to?

I have a pretty strong guess at the answer to the converse of that question -- the converse question being, "What do you think you are losing by his failure to disclose as per his agreement?" and the answer to that being "The loss is trust, as in what else isn't he telling me about?" But is there in fact a corresponding gain for you when he does follow through and inform you? Or is the loss of trust when he doesn't inform a one-sided, "lose-only" transaction?

It's just that you have chosen a kind of odd place to draw your line in the sand. If you really were okay with him doing this, he shouldn't have to inform you of it every time it happens, any more than he would need to inform you every time he went to the store for Oreos. For the sake of the analogy, he loves Oreos, and you don't much care for them yourself, but you don't mind him buying them...as long as he tells you? Does that not strike you as a weird thing to insist on?

Now, it isn't entirely that simple; for starters, a session with a dom probably costs a hell of a lot more than a pack of cookies, and you have a right to make sure he isn't draining the joint accounts. But I suspect that finances isn't what worries you. Clearly there is an aspect to this behavior that you find threatening, and the wish to be informed whenever it happens is an attempt at obtaining some sense of control (however illusory it may be).

So my question to you is, what exactly (and I do mean exactly, as in "be specific") do you hope to gain (or control) through the medium of full disclosure? Is there in fact anything to be gained by compliance, in contrast to the loss from non-compliance?

Second, related question is, how exactly does this activity make you feel threatened? And related to that, why isn't he telling you, especially when he said he would? Are you doing something to make telling seem like a losing proposition to him?

Is there anything he could do to alleviate that feeling of threat for you? Perhaps something other than immediate disclosure?
More...
Posted by avast2006 on February 2, 2012 at 1:07 PM · Report this
97
BTW, his other online account for chatting "as a woman" is probably primarily for his own protection from the rest of the world, who probably wouldn't be as understanding of his kinks as you are. Not in order to hide from you.

If that helps you relax and reduce the score of apparent lying by one item, I advise you to take it in that spirit.
Posted by avast2006 on February 2, 2012 at 1:15 PM · Report this
98
The amount of mental gymnastics that sometimes go into elaborate explanations of personal ideologies.. It's a bit like a blast of dead, dry leave bits in a gust of wind.. Trying to count how many bits of leaf are coming at you (because you can), but at the end of it all, it's all just wind and leaves. Verbosity for the sake of it, and may the truth be damned for it bores us. Why I don't relate and why I'm sure it will be no loss to anyone if the likes of me gets lost from these parts. Consider it done. Cheers.
Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 1:20 PM · Report this
99
"If that helps you relax and reduce the score of apparent lying by one item, I advise you to take it in that spirit."

What if it's more than one item, and you're going on a multi-year resentment basis? Good time to cut your own shit loose and start over else, wouldn't you say?

Yeah: I'd say so, so there you go then. Goodbye.
Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 1:23 PM · Report this
100
Hitme, got a girdle I can borrow?
Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 1:25 PM · Report this
101
@ 96:

"Are you doing something to make telling seem like a losing proposition to him?"

It sounds like she's overanalyzing what doesn't need to be overanalyzed: just tell the truth with a minimum of bullshit. True, it does bore some, resorting to that sort of thing, but it establishes character, trust and all-around-likeable integrity.

To some, that sort of thing doesn't matter enough. More about the delightful mental circus and tricks galore for personal perverse amusement, and beyond-old claims of being much more complex than they actually are...

Saying so much, yet never saying anything real: the real boredom, devoid of any real heart.

A thumbnail synopis of an asshole like *YOU BI-BI BOB*/several zillion other names. Just waiting to get to a 100.

Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 1:31 PM · Report this
102
Ah, nevermind.

Literally.
Posted by pigeon park on February 2, 2012 at 1:32 PM · Report this
103
@93 more than just opposite marriages are legal now in Washington state.
Posted by Marrena on February 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM · Report this
104
@103, oh, right, of course. Thanks!!
Posted by EricaP on February 2, 2012 at 3:14 PM · Report this
105
Why make apologies for asshole behaviours just because this guy has a kink ? Does it seem to anyone else that this behavior would be seen for what it is if he weren't kinky ? Or conversely what if he doesn't find her attractive, personify wise or physically ? What if he only married her because she accepted his kinks ? Is that a good reason to marry ?
Posted by Xam on February 2, 2012 at 5:02 PM · Report this
106
Hitme,

Welcome to the forum.

How's it going?

Posted by Hunter78 on February 2, 2012 at 5:20 PM · Report this
107
So the full disclosure is because he was so deceitful when we were dating. I had tried to ask about his kinks and what he wanted but he claimed he was always happy with what we did which was basically nothing. I knew he was a very kinky guy so that's why I offered to pay for a domme, because he didn't seem to be comfortable talking about his kinks to me let alone doing them with me. I was at his apartment and went to use his computer which I had permission to do, it was on his email which by the subject lines I could tell they were incriminating. I did snoop then, and I found out he had been talking to and trying to see multiple people including non-pros. I also found out he had seen a pro even though he told me it was wrong when I had offered to buy him some sessions. I also finally learned more about who he was and what he wanted. Look. It wasn't a good place to be in to find out he didn't trust me enough to tell me these things or he just didn't want to do them with me. I had a hard time with it. I felt betrayed. Now, I don't care if he talks to people, I am naughty online too! I'm even ok with him seeing someone else in the future as long as I'm in on whats going on. I don't feel that's unreasonable. He has my passwords, I tell him what disgusting porn I watched or what pictures I've sent. I would like it if he did the same. If he's lying and being sneaky I think something else is up. To me there is no reason to be sneaky about it. Although I'm hoping it's that he likes being sneaky AND we can incorporate it into our play. I loved the suggestion of tying him up and getting it out of him!
Posted by hitme on February 2, 2012 at 5:37 PM · Report this
108
Also he doesn't have to tell me every single time he chats with someone. He does it A LOT. But if I go to use his camera phone because I have an old POS phone and I see pictures on there and ask him about it, I don't feel we're in a good place when he looks straight at me and lies! I hope this is all making sense...
Posted by hitme on February 2, 2012 at 5:43 PM · Report this
mydriasis 109
@hitme

Honey, don't let people put you on the defensive for standing up and asking for the bare bones minimum level of respect in a relationship.
Posted by mydriasis on February 2, 2012 at 6:06 PM · Report this
110
HITME's man sounds like a congenital, serially lying piece of shit, typical addict behavior, and if I were her I would DTMFA. What a co-dependent spineless pushover she is being! Does she think so little of herself that she has no hope of being able to do better than him? This can only end badly, and the sooner she ends it the better.

Snooping is not always wrong. People who say it is are usually the ones who have something to hide. On some level she obviously knew he was lying, and the fact that she was able to confirm it retroactively justifies the snooping.
Posted by cockyballsup on February 2, 2012 at 6:54 PM · Report this
111
Hitme, you don't have to answer, but I'm curious what you thought of avast's question @96. Suppose he did tell you everything he did, everyone he sent pictures to -- how would that benefit you?

And if he continues to avoid telling you things, how does that affect you, concretely?

Do you trust him not to bring back STDs to you? (That is, do you trust that the lies are only about what he does online, and aren't about seeing people in person?)

Can you see the whole situation as him wanting privacy for these actions?

(I ask these questions because I'm also struggling to find answers in my own life...)
Posted by EricaP on February 2, 2012 at 7:05 PM · Report this
112
@ 110 - that was my takeaway from the letter, too. He sounds like a complete dirtbag. Untrustworthy and certainly not SO material. I can't fathom how this dynamic could be remotely healthy for HITME.
Posted by UrinalCupcake on February 2, 2012 at 7:41 PM · Report this
113
What do I gain.... nothing really. I mean ultimately I just want the lines of communication open. I want to know what he's fantasizing about and vice versa. If he's being sneaky, again I'm thinking we are taking big steps backwards and/or is there other reasons why he's being sneaking ie cheating.

Do I think he would cheat? No. Before the only person he had met with was a professional domme. Which I'm very comfortable with, I just didn't like that he did it behind my back.

Could he cheat? Yeah I guess. I mean he's in chastity belt quite a lot so it would be difficult, to be honest. But that aside, no, I trust him, which is why something so stupid as those pictures pissed me off. The pictures are a who really gives a shit, thing. I was worried it could mean a bigger problem.

I've seen many men cheat over my lifetime, from all walks of life kinky to vanilla. I don't think I'm more at risk to STDs than any other person.

We did a year of premarital counseling. I'm very happy with my marriage and life overall.
Posted by hitme on February 2, 2012 at 7:50 PM · Report this
mydriasis 114
@Erica

"And if he continues to avoid telling you things, how does that affect you, concretely?"

And if he calls you fat and ugly - how does that affect you, concretely?

Some people want respect from their partners.
Posted by mydriasis on February 2, 2012 at 7:55 PM · Report this
115
I thought of the 'sneaky' kink, as well. She needs to have a sit-down with her husband and tell him that if he's worried about the shaming, she won't do that, but honesty and transparency are dealbreakers. If it's the 'sneaky' kink, they can work something out, and Dan and others have made fine suggestions on how to play that out.

The last thing to tell him is that those are the only two reasonable reasons for sneaking around when she's already told him that kinky is OK, and lying is not. If there's something she hasn't thought of, he needs to tell her now. If this continues and they don't work it out, she will be forced to assume he is a LPOS (possibly CPOS) and strongly consider whether to DTMFA.
Posted by clashfan on February 2, 2012 at 8:00 PM · Report this
116
@114 - If someone lies to me about something that doesn't directly affect me (what they fantasize about, or whether they had a drink with lunch, or whether they talked with women online, or masturbated today...), that's not really the same as a direct insult, is it?

Please don't think I'm being flip here. I'm just considering that people may have varying needs for privacy. Maybe the liars should figure out a way to say "That's private; I'm not going to tell you," instead of out-and-out lying about it. To me, that would be a reasonable middle ground.

If that's unacceptable to you, that's fine. But would you walk from a teenage kid who lied repeatedly to you? Or would you try to find a way to make things work, despite the lies?
Posted by EricaP on February 2, 2012 at 10:52 PM · Report this
117
hitme @113 - How about if he said he wouldn't lie anymore, but he also wouldn't tell you when he chatted or sent photos or webcammed with people online? And if you asked directly, he would sometimes refuse to answer on the grounds that it's his personal life.

Would that be unacceptable to you?

Posted by EricaP on February 2, 2012 at 10:55 PM · Report this
118
HITME - the minute you really no longer care what he does online, the thrill will be gone for him.

I suspect its the lying and sneaking and thrill of doing something "wrong" that is putting the wind in his sails.

You have 2 options: just ignore the online play and get over it or retire his cock cage and collar and tell him you don't play with lying, sneaky, manipulative slaves; if you want to add salt to the wound, find yourself another boy toy, and make him watch.
Posted by kirikat on February 3, 2012 at 12:44 AM · Report this
AFinch 119
"Please don't think I'm being flip here. I'm just considering that people may have varying needs for privacy. Maybe the liars should figure out a way to say "That's private; I'm not going to tell you," instead of out-and-out lying about it. To me, that would be a reasonable middle ground."

I think you are 100% correct about this, and I want to amend,extend and amen(!) it:

It's not just a reasonable middle ground, but an important indication of both respect for the partner and self-respect. It is OK to have personal boundaries (self-respect), and it's really disrespectful to your partner to not be honest about them. He needs to learn to say "no, I'm not going to disclose every encounter" if he's not willing to follow through on it.

Given HITME's follow-up about this, it also sounds like this guy is just starting to explore and learn about his own kink and maybe is a little self-loathing and closeted?
Posted by AFinch on February 3, 2012 at 7:08 AM · Report this
mydriasis 120
@Erica

If you don't think there's a fundimental difference between a mother-child relationship and a husband-wife (or wife-wife, or husband-husband) relationship then I can't help you.

And if the person insults you behind your back? Is that more like a lie? Or a direct insult?

Lying to someone is incredibly disrespectful - especially when it's systemic. In a sense it's more of a problem then a direct insult. When a SO is open about their disrespect for you, at least you can do something about it. If they're lying to you and you don't find out, you could spend years with a person who isn't treating you correctly. Which is unfortunate.
Posted by mydriasis on February 3, 2012 at 8:07 AM · Report this
121
@ 119, AFinch: To quote you:

"Given HITME's follow-up about this, it also sounds like this guy is just starting to explore and learn about his own kink and maybe is a little self-loathing and closeted?"

The self-loathing and closeted thing: *that's why* people get upset with this sort of thing: it begins to effect *everyone* around you; coping with sensing and feeling that someone cannot face and accept themselves...and the release of that spills over into glib, delightful secrecy, a stubborn desire to not confide in anyone directly effected by his troubles... Interpersonal troubles, like smiles, can be infectious..

*Everyone* has known of a troubled soul who has been a closet case, or, maybe, still is...

Hell, I too have been closeted: I gave that shit up at 27 years old (I'm 42 now) because *the fear, pressure and the self-loathing got so unbearable and, finally, unacceptable to me that I bit the fucking bullet and just came out already. Honesty is honesty: no matter what your truth. No one gives a shit about what someone is into or isn't into if there is no layer of bullshit, fear, trepidation or sticking to an old, worn-out backstory as a security blanket. A blanket with so many worn holes in it, that people can still see, sense and feel the painful-to-watch ambivalence of someone not at ease within their own skin, and actual soul..

Some people *do* get off on the thrill of being secretive, withholding, glib, perversely-cruel as well as generally-unmoved by actual, human sentiment, or concern.

I have spent so many years trying to connect with someone in a predicament similar to HITME.

Sometimes, it just isn't meant to be.
Try telling that to someone stupid like me, who tried to connect and love someone for over sixteen years, and it still hasn't happened yet.

Why I ever tried? Who the fuck knows. Probably because I have actually a scant, healthy romantic history (no surprise I'm sure to some of you casually familiar with my previous ranting and raving).

I'm a perfect example of what happens to someone when you give out, continue to believe in and keep trying to feel and see the good side in someone who just ultimately isn't right for you at the end of the day: someone who just doesn't fully connect to you the way you need to... Trying for over sixteen years... I've long known I'm a bit crazy, but even reading those very words makes me feel even sadder: no matter what, what happened to me wound up being unrequited on my end.

Sneakiness, a need for secrecy and/or game-playing, manipulative bullshit is only bound to come soon after... Hence why, as horribly-difficult as it is to accept, I've chosen to end what has never began or ever really gelled with me: that other guy. Thanks for reading, or pretending that you did. Peace.
More...
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 8:12 AM · Report this
122
It occurrs to me that maybe HITME's hubby is sub-consciously (pardon the pun) trying to piss her off as a means to generating more authentic punishment. Maybe he wants to escalate her "acting" mad to "being" mad.
Posted by Clicker on February 3, 2012 at 8:14 AM · Report this
123
@120 what if I told you that he didn't lie to me for the first sixteen years we were together? It feels like a phase he's going through, like adolescence is a phase. We'll see.
Posted by EricaP on February 3, 2012 at 8:50 AM · Report this
124
@ 122, Clicker:

"It occurrs to me that maybe HITME's hubby is sub-consciously (pardon the pun) trying to piss her off as a means to generating more authentic punishment. Maybe he wants to escalate her "acting" mad to "being" mad."

Of course! The same kind of personality that talks a big game, and is nothing but a pussy underneath all the bragging and bluster. The wife should peg him with a strap-on: hard.

Narcissistic, insatiable-for-admiration, bullshit attention-seeking behavior that gets really old and draining.

Incidentally, I'd like to say a collective hello to all of the names in here that are invariably one in the same person. Sixteen (oh, ok: four-plus years of that) years of that is enough for anyone.

@ 123, EricaP:

"@120 (or @ 121) "what if I told you that he didn't lie to me for the first sixteen years we were together? It feels like a phase he's going through, like adolescence is a phase. We'll see."

I'd say you're lucky, EricaP. I'm still being lied to (and ignored), and it's been sixteen years.

Bob? Fuck off. Go and suck Dan Savage off in Seattle, you evil, game-playing, heartless bastard.
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 9:12 AM · Report this
125
Fuck ALL Of You!
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 9:12 AM · Report this
126
@pigeon park -- do you have someone in your life you can talk to? You seem to be having a hard time. I hope you will reach out to a friend or counselor or mentor and let them know if you could use some help. Life is hard, but letting people help us can sometimes make it a little easier. Best wishes...
Posted by EricaP on February 3, 2012 at 9:37 AM · Report this
127
I'm sorry for letting it all out in here on one hand, EricaP.

I don't think I can find what I need in here...
(I know I can't.) Thank you for the compassionate words, Erica. I need to go now. Thank you.
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 9:47 AM · Report this
128
Totally relate to NICE. I like a man who's a good dominant top in certain sexual scenarios, but is still a completely equal, loving partner everywhere else. It's really hard to find. Gay personals sites like recon will get you all those "I want a slave 24/7!" doms that just end up turning me off to the whole thing!
Posted by raleigh-NC on February 3, 2012 at 11:02 AM · Report this
129
@ 127, continued...

...and I shouldn't have to find what, or whom, I'm looking for *in here*.

The scenario: A very attractive, well-built (very muscular), well-off, mercurial-in-his-humor and presence prominent figure in his town. Charitable behind the scenes with organizations, but as cruel and abusively-ignorant when it comes to anyone who begins to feel, or demonstrate, genuine concern or care for him.

It makes him retreat, act in a contradictory way (to save "face") and then continue on to pretend to be someone like HITME, or about any of the other pseudonyms used in here daily.

Anyway, this well-off, very successful in a life's hand sort of way man lives to piss people off to cater to his conflicting desire to be treated as a submissive, with all of the hateful energy he longs for you to unleash on him, for your own consternation and misery is his fetish: he gets off on pissing you off and *then* wants to be a little, dominated bitch; tied up wrists to ankles, and then tickled in his HOMO-cringing asshole with a multi-colored feather until his asshole puckers in desire...

Then, because he loves to be a cuckolding freak, I'd leave him tied up there and film the action as a parade of people come in and have their ways with him (jerk off to this like you do anything else I write you that involves me having to be pissed off at you Bob, for *your* pleasure to jerk your pud to your own fucked-up imagination..

A man who appears *so manly and tall*, yet in reality is the most-pussy-whipped, disingenuous, freaky, unreliable, passive-aggressive, self-pitying, issues-laden, ungrateful pathetic fucking asshole as you'd ever never hope to have to deal with in real life (something a fucker like Bi-Bi Bob just can never get a handle on. He gets a great handle on Dan and Terry's shafts and ball-sacs well though...)

Bob? You deserve to be embarrassed in your own playground. I could never seriously indulge your penchant for domination in the sack. It makes me wanna vomit, knowing how much of true freak you are.

That, and I now count my blessings you have remained afar as you have. The more I know of you, the more I grow sickened and resentful.

Over to any of you, one in the same.

p.s.: Counselors are just as sick as their patients, mentors cannot be found within these parts and who used to pretend to be a friend, no longer is to me. So thanks, but no thanks.

Your ultimate lameness is what killed it for me, Bob. You treat me the way you want me to treat you: like an insignificant piece of shit.

Fuck you, your money, your connections, your mental problems and your HGH-shrunken balls: you will never be good enough for me. You never have been, you never will. You play games and hurt people. You fake, soulless piece of shit! 2-3-12: Smoochie's Birthday, and you can go to hell! Smooch my unwiped backside, Bi-Bi Bob... As soon as you're done blowing Dan Savage and the rest of the world, that is.
More...
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 11:03 AM · Report this
130
@ 127, continued...

...and I shouldn't have to find what, or whom, I'm looking for *in here*.

The scenario: A very attractive, well-built (very muscular), well-off, mercurial-in-his-humor and presence prominent figure in his town. Charitable behind the scenes with organizations, but as cruel and abusively-ignorant when it comes to anyone who begins to feel, or demonstrate, genuine concern or care for him.

It makes him retreat, act in a contradictory way (to save "face") and then continue on to pretend to be someone like HITME, or about any of the other pseudonyms used in here daily.

Anyway, this well-off, very successful in a life's hand sort of way man lives to piss people off to cater to his conflicting desire to be treated as a submissive, with all of the hateful energy he longs for you to unleash on him, for your own consternation and misery is his fetish: he gets off on pissing you off and *then* wants to be a little, dominated bitch; tied up wrists to ankles, and then tickled in his HOMO-cringing asshole with a multi-colored feather until his asshole puckers in desire...

Then, because he loves to be a cuckolding freak, I'd leave him tied up there and film the action as a parade of people come in and have their ways with him (jerk off to this like you do anything else I write you that involves me having to be pissed off at you Bob, for *your* pleasure to jerk your pud to your own fucked-up imagination..

A man who appears *so manly and tall*, yet in reality is the most-pussy-whipped, disingenuous, freaky, unreliable, passive-aggressive, self-pitying, issues-laden, ungrateful pathetic fucking asshole as you'd ever never hope to have to deal with in real life (something a fucker like Bi-Bi Bob just can never get a handle on. He gets a great handle on Dan and Terry's shafts and ball-sacs well though...)

Bob? You deserve to be embarrassed in your own playground. I could never seriously indulge your penchant for domination in the sack. It makes me wanna vomit, knowing how much of true freak you are.

That, and I now count my blessings you have remained afar as you have. The more I know of you, the more I grow sickened and resentful.

Over to any of you, one in the same.

p.s.: Counselors are just as sick as their patients, mentors cannot be found within these parts and who used to pretend to be a friend, no longer is to me. So thanks, but no thanks.

Your ultimate lameness is what killed it for me, Bob. You treat me the way you want me to treat you: like an insignificant piece of shit.

Fuck you, your money, your connections, your mental problems and your HGH-shrunken balls: you will never be good enough for me. You never have been, you never will. You play games and hurt people. You fake, soulless piece of shit! 2-3-12: Smoochie's Birthday, and you can go to hell! Smooch my unwiped backside, Bi-Bi Bob... As soon as you're done blowing Dan Savage and the rest of the world, that is.
More...
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 11:06 AM · Report this
131
No matter what Bob, it's already too late.
Nothing will *ever* happen.
You're the only fool left now, Bob.
Thanks for nothing, at the end of the day.
Going, going, gone.
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 11:07 AM · Report this
132
@ 128: Someone would have to try treating someone else like that, if they wanna be treated like that: "a man who's a good dominant top in certain sexual scenarios, but is still a completely equal, loving partner everywhere else."

Good luck finding anyone who will *honestly and bravely reciprocate* what it is you're willing to offer. I've been there..
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 11:10 AM · Report this
133
133: nothing, you see. Jesus can't save you, 'cos he doesn't give a shit to help liars.
So, there you go then. Rejoice in your own shitstorm, Bob. Douchebag.
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 11:11 AM · Report this
134
To NICE, what's wrong with the obvious - selecting guys who indicate that they are tops in their online profile? It's the first thing that is displayed in most of the online gay dating sites. What am I missing?
Posted by cockyballsup on February 3, 2012 at 12:04 PM · Report this
135
"What am I missing?"

Everything, pal.
Posted by pigeon park on February 3, 2012 at 12:22 PM · Report this
136
@123 EricaP
It's a phase. It will sort out eventually. Hang in there.
Posted by Mr. J on February 3, 2012 at 1:23 PM · Report this
137
@123, EricaP,

We never know. My bet (like Mr J's) is that it's a phase. But what if it isn't?

I may be wrong -- please disregard me if I am -- but I'm getting the feeling that you'd be shattered if your husband's phase weren't a phase. I hope I'm wrong? Because, after all, you (like everybody) are more than the sum of your relationships.

Life is not perfect. Someday our partners will leave us, even if it is because they (or we) will die. I try to live understanding the moment (what's going on? why did s/he do that?) but without obsessing about it (oh, I don't know; well, sooner or later it will affect me, if it's really important, and then I can decide what to do).

In some sense, as was said in American Beauty, there is beauty everywhere, if you look at it. Languages (for me), mountains (for my wife), cool cats (for my daughter), love for oneself (I like who I am, no matter what happens to me now -- whether or not I'm being lied to, whether or not I'll be successful in my work and career, in my love life, etc.).

If we remember that, then no matter what problem we have with something -- lies from a partner, something hidden under the bed of our child that shouldn't have been there, problems at work, whatever -- it is put in perspective. We try to solve them, we give it our best shot. If it works, hooray. If it doesn't, we move on. :-)
Posted by ankylosaur on February 3, 2012 at 1:55 PM · Report this
138
@137 ankylosaur
What's wrong with being shattered over an enormous loss? To try to head that off is to prevent feeling the thing in the first place. Life is not full without substantial risk taking.
Posted by Mr. J on February 3, 2012 at 2:35 PM · Report this
139
@hitme
Wow. So many lies. I think they are too many and too soon.
Posted by Mr. J on February 3, 2012 at 2:37 PM · Report this
140
Pigeon,

You're not that interesting.
Posted by Hunter78 on February 3, 2012 at 2:54 PM · Report this
141
@137/138, thanks for your concern, but, no, I don't think I'll be shattered regardless of how this turns out. It's a spectrum: I want to share as much time and honesty and laughs with my husband as possible before we die. I do understand that it can't be ALL our time, ALL our honesty, and ALL our laughs. But I'm still going to work on maximizing all of the above to the best of my ability.
Posted by EricaP on February 3, 2012 at 3:56 PM · Report this
mydriasis 142
@123

Your life is your life.

I'm just uncomfortable with that comparison, tbh. Especially since it's exceedingly common for unhealthy relationships to include one partner 'parenting' the other.

My reaction was personal. If my relationship with anyone were anything like my relationship with my parents (when I was a teenager or otherwise) I would end that relationship.

When I was a teenager I liked to do drugs. I sure as hell lied about that to my parents. But never to my friends (and I had several friends who did not approve of the types of drugs I was doing and the degree I was doing them to). My reasoning was that if I had to lie about doing something, I probably shouldn't be doing it and if I was truly okay with what I was doing I should be comfortable admitting it. Plus I feel like lying delegitimizes a relationship, bit by bit.

Again, that's me. My ethics aren't always conventional, but I try to stick to the ones I have as best I can. And honesty is a big deal to me.

If you have decided it's not a big deal to you, that's your decision, I guess I'm just troubled when it seems like you're implying HITME should choose to give up something that is important to her - and completely valid.

Or let me put it this way: lying is disrespectful. Teenagers get a free pass on being disrespectful to their parents for a while (it's part of the package of a one-way-consent relationship)... I don't believe is the same thing of two somewhat equal people entering a relationship together.
Posted by mydriasis on February 3, 2012 at 9:46 PM · Report this
143
@142, lots of things are disrespectful that end up being necessary. I don't like lying either -- I like to say I have a fetish for the truth. But if life has taught me something, it is that there's no rule that it's always best to adhere to, and nature seems to have a cruel pleasure with throwing situations our way that show us that following our own moral rules would force us to make the 'wrong' decision.

If HITME feels that honesty is a must, if it's a deal-breaker to her -- then by all means she has the right to insist on it. But it's like all deal-breakers: other people might not insist so much on it, and in their lives they may have found happiness precisely because it wasn't a deal-breaker for them. (To you, for instance, lying implies lack of respect. This is not a necessary or scientific connection, although it is one that is certainly true for you in your life, and you are fully entitled to live by it.)

(Deal-breakers are funny things. They both increase and decrease our chances of being happy. They make sure we won't be staying in situations/relationships in which our level of comfort or happiness just wouldn't be satisfactory. At the same time, they prevent us from experimenting with said levels of comfort and happiness -- thus not allowing us to [sometimes] find out that things were not exactly as we thought.)

Yes, there's something odd with HITME and her relationship. Yes, judging by what she wrote, she's just trying to get from her partner the same level of openness and honesty -- of respect, if she sees it as you do -- that she herself is voluntarily giving him. There's nothing wrong in principle with that, she's fully entitled to wanting this, and she may even be right -- at least right in the sense that that's what would work for her, for her life, for her happiness; and perhaps even right beyond that.

Still, to me (and I stress: to me), when all's said and done, the most important question is: which option maximizes happiness, really? Will HITME eventually be happier if she strikes a less-than-perfect-honesty deal with her partner, or will she not?
More...
Posted by ankylosaur on February 4, 2012 at 8:56 AM · Report this
mydriasis 144
@143

Rules have exceptions, yes. But that's why I put my emphasis on the fact that the lying is systemic (it's one thing to lie to someone on the rare obscure occasion, it's another to make a habit out of lying to someone on the regular despite their protests) and she specifically told him that honesty was exceedingly important to her.

Some people prefer to be lied to (and will admit this). Sometimes one might INFER their partner might prefer to be lied to in the situation at hand. I personally am disgusted by nearly all lying but I can see how the liar in those cases might be making the decision he or she thinks is the most ethical option.

I get that.

I just don't think it applies here. Here she has repeatedly asked, pleaded for honesty and he has repeatedly denied it. I think that is pretty objectively disrespectful. Either he outright doesn't care what she wants if it conflicts with what he wants, or somehow thinks he knows better than her what's best for her despite the past that this behaviour has upset her apparently every time he's done it.

For other people lying might not be objectively disrespectful but in her case I believe it is - and that's what I was getting at.

As for dealbreakers (matters of ethics), I don't go back on them. But in terms of less strict rules I have experimented with them... every time it reconfirmed that my original plan works best for me. I trust myself.
Posted by mydriasis on February 4, 2012 at 9:24 AM · Report this
145
@144 "he outright doesn't care what she wants if it conflicts with what he wants,"

Couldn't that be rephrased as "she outright doesn't care what he wants [private chat], if it conflicts with what she wants [honesty]"?

She wants honesty, but isn't promising to be hugely enthusiastic about his online chats - just to "be okay with it."

He seems to want some privacy, but hasn't figured out how to stick up for what he wants. (Or else he likes the "getting-caught" dynamic, and again, isn't able to put that into words.)

You seem to think the incompatibility means she should walk away. And if she comes to that decision, good for her. I just want to make sure she knows that she has other options. I wonder what her husband would say if he read this thread...
Posted by EricaP on February 4, 2012 at 11:58 AM · Report this
146
@145 While that maybe the case, HITME said that this was a problem they had already had and confronted early in their relationship. If it was a need or a kink like most people are suggesting he SHOULD have laid his kink cards/demands on the table then. And if it's a new personal development then why couldn't he discuss it with her if the previous confrontation was as big a turning point in their relationship as HITME suggests.

I just really don't see how this can be a legitimate way of communicating your needs to a partner. Or how this can be interperted as a symptom of a fault on her part, at least not with the information provided.

Anyways, by the tone of her letter and posts she seems dead set on sticking with it and doing what she can to reach some kind of understanding.

Best of luck HITME!
Posted by mygash on February 4, 2012 at 2:08 PM · Report this
147
"interperted as a symptom of a fault on her part"
Didn't mean to suggest she was at fault! Just trying to help show why it might not be easy for him to be honest, if he worries she'll react with sadness or irritation rather than enthusiasm.

He's at fault, definitely, for not being honest either about his actions or about his desire for privacy (or his desire to get "caught"), or whatever is going on.

But I don't see him as an asshole, just someone who should reflect on what he really wants out of life, and what path is best suited to get him there. Unfortunately, she can't do that work for him, and if he refuses to do it, she has hard decisions to make.
Posted by EricaP on February 4, 2012 at 2:56 PM · Report this
148
@mydriasis, indeed. I also used to think that my own deal-breakers (or even less strict rules) were the best for me. I never consciously experimented with them (with one exception, not really relevant), but life did throw at me a couple of situations that forced me to reconsider a couple of them. Others have indeed withstood the test of time, but because of those experiences, I don't assume they necessarily will forever. Only thus far.

I'm glad that your experiences have reconfirmed your own choices, and I'm equally glad that you're adamant about them. You seem pretty satisfied with your life, so I really have nothing to criticize you about. Only allow me the belief that there is perhaps a little bit of good luck involved in the fact that your rules were reconfirmed every time by your experiments. I hope this will go on being the case for the rest of your life.

As for HITME and her partner, yes indeed, he is behaving in a way that, for someone to whom honesty is a dealbreaker, does suggest disrespect. Or at least, as EricaP above suggests, cluelessness, denial, avoidance, or some other more-or-less pathological behavior. He should indeed think about what he's doing, and whether or not he wants to change it, because, if he doesn't, his partner being who she is, things will become difficult for their relationship.

Again as EricaP said, my personal wish is simply that they think about this in terms of what options they have, and that the simple equation pattern-of-disrespect -> DTMFA isn't the only one. But as far as I can see you don't think that way either, so maybe the difference between us is only how likely (and under what circumstances) you think it is that HITME and her partner will reach some sort of agreement? It seems you think that's possible only if he stops the pattern HITME and you see as disrespectful. I think there may be other alternatives (though stopping the pattern is the most obvious and probably the most likely to succeed).
More...
Posted by ankylosaur on February 4, 2012 at 4:29 PM · Report this
149
@147 My bad, that's kind of the implied under current I felt was in your back and forth with mydriasis. I actually sincerely hope you or Dan are right about this situation. I'm sorry if my past post came out as disrespectful.
Posted by mygash on February 4, 2012 at 5:07 PM · Report this
150
I am furious with the vindictive girl who outed BDSM's older brother. She could have ruined permanently many relationships he has with family, with friends, with work colleagues. He could have lost his job. The law could have gotten involved. He could have been so mortified that it would drive him to suicide. She deserves to suffer greatly for the horrible dangerous stunt she pulled.
Posted by mickey on February 4, 2012 at 6:00 PM · Report this
mydriasis 151
@149

I felt that too.
And you know, I'm sure that's not what she meant, I think all of us just take certain things a certain way.
On the plus side, I've found most people here are pretty tolerant and understanding of that, which is quite nice.
Posted by mydriasis on February 4, 2012 at 7:03 PM · Report this
152
@1, @4, and @7: LOL!!!
...and not even SCRUBBING will take it out!

@6: Trickle-down Santorum might form a putrid, brown puddle before drying up inside Newt's elephant-sized butt-crack, but both will be good riddance!! OBAMA 2012!!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on February 4, 2012 at 11:40 PM · Report this
153
@149/151 it's always helpful to be pushed to clarify -- the great thing about Slog is the endless time & space we have to work through an issue, maybe not always to the point of agreement, but to the point where everyone feels they got to explain their perspective as clearly as possible. The bell doesn't ring at the end of class to signal the end of a conversation that was just getting started... instead we go to bed, eager to see what ankylosaur will have to say in the morning :-)
Posted by EricaP on February 5, 2012 at 1:03 AM · Report this
154
I saw this TED talk by Elizabeth Pisani about HIV prevention (called Sex, Drugs, and HIV) and thought you and the ARY might enjoy it if you haven't seen it already. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/elizabe… (or you can just go to TED.com and search her name)

Enjoy! Cheers.
Posted by DanDann on February 5, 2012 at 2:43 AM · Report this
155
Ms Erica, Mr Ank is as reliable as Sandy Stranger. We already have quite a good idea of what he's likely to say. If Mr Ank were a Wife of Henry VIII, he would be Catharine of Aragon - submissive but full of rectitude.
Posted by vennominon on February 5, 2012 at 4:21 PM · Report this
156
@155, I tend to identify with Catharine the great (who, despite not having been a wife of Henry the VIII, would certainly have known how to handle him). :-)
Posted by ankylosaur on February 6, 2012 at 4:01 AM · Report this
157
Mr Ank - Not doubting the identification - I had just been casting the Wives as a result of being asked a question along those lines by a friend and deciding that I should be Katherine Parr - fond of clocks, given to instructing those in power more than is good for me, and never ending up with a contemporary but always a partner either older or younger than myself.

As a result, I thought it might be fun to see if I could cast all the Wives - and I was reasonably successful, I think.

I'll post the remainder of the cast later in the day. The most interesting question is what to make of Henry himself - how the particularities of his situation affect whether he falls more towards the Savage or the Gingrich side of non-monogamy.

Posted by vennominon on February 6, 2012 at 6:15 AM · Report this
158
@ 140, Hunter78: I now know that.

I need to say something right and conciliatory before I turn the floor back over to any of you.

Thank you.

I apologize for being a douchebag to this site.

This is why I flipped out: I correspond in a very peculiar way with someone who frequents in here. I e-mail this person directly, and to my now-a-bit embarrassed awareness, too much so.

I am not e-mailed back: he writes and communicates in here, and it's a very long (as Hunter78 would say, not very interesting) story, but there's a strong connection: not always harmonious or easily understood, but a strong connection.

Since I was such an asshole last week, and having shut up, read, absorbed and listened over the weekend, I had to realize that I can't fight City Hall anymore: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em? Either that, and resolve to let it go and move on.

I freak out about lies and honesty because -even though I know now that, given how I've been, *this* is as comfortable and as far as you're willing to go to reach out to me. Here, and that other place (sorry, folks: I'll be done in a second. Thank you).

I'll be the first to admit when I am wrong, or am acting like a fool.

I have.

I learned a lot and faced a lot over this weekend that I probably haven't had the guts myself to realize: I have overdone it, I am cramping your style and I now accept that not only do I need to get my shit together upstairs, but also that at least I get to read you here..

We both need space from one another. I will read, learn and get to know you through here in the meantime. Going with the flow for now.

I'm sorry again, everyone. I'm in the wrong and I just wanted to say so, shaddup and go do what needs to be done. Thank you, have a good morning and Peace.

Pigeon: Terminally-Uninteresting;).
More...
Posted by pigeon park on February 6, 2012 at 6:38 AM · Report this
159
It's difficult to absorb that I've been a total idiot, but I will. It just confounded me and kinda hurt me for the longest time that I would approach you privately and directly, but in turn, I would find you here..

It still takes getting used to for me, and that's my problem I need to contend with. I don't want to make any more problems for anyone (seriously). I just wanted answers, and I have found a few in here. One day at a time.. I do imagine I will leap over or swim underneath the wave of all thing's Valentine's Day. I know how I can be. It's time for me to back off and give us both space. I need it now just as much as you always have. I just didn't know it enough, and I'm sorry for that.

It's unusual, and I think I need to either accept it and work with what is, or decide to call it a day. Right now, a sensible break in the action sounds healthy right about now.

I apologize for not having more adventurous tales under my arm, but I have cared and have had feelings for a very long time about ... him.

I'm learning to accept what is with you as well as my myself, for real. It *felt* like a lie to me to approach you directly, and then have you respond in a totally different place.. It's not about wanting to know everything you do. I don't: no more than you ever wanted to know every little mundane thing I do (I get it, B.).

I blitzkrieged you with what I did as an angry response to you never writing me back like I write you.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, as someone in here with a name like that could say.

It is different now, a growth period. I will back off considerably and take it from there.

What I share with this person is complex, and sometimes it's just very difficult to succesfully-navigate through..

I also do believe you're bi. You did marry your chosen domme, you know;) .

I never though I would ever be one to say this, but even I need space from me.

Thank you, sorry for the melodrama, + peace.

Bore 'Em At The Forum, Pigeon;).

It still takes getting used to for me, and that's my problem.

More...
Posted by pigeon park on February 6, 2012 at 6:54 AM · Report this
160
I know I'm not ready to be poly, or go there. But then, that's me right now... Lots to think about and lots of time needed to get there.. Peace.
Posted by pigeon park on February 6, 2012 at 6:56 AM · Report this
161
No More Pigeon Park: It's Going To Be Bulldozed & Paved Over. Finito. And the room collectively breathes a sigh and says good riddance.
Posted by pigeon park on February 6, 2012 at 8:19 AM · Report this
162
@ 161 Good. No one gives a shit to read to watch you go psycho on us. A kindness it is for us all.

Posted by now maybe it will be fun in here again on February 6, 2012 at 8:46 AM · Report this
163
There's another possibility... When Mr KH and I were polyfuckus, I just wanted to know who he was screwing. This was merely to avoid awkward social situations. Likewise, I let him know who I was screwing for similar reasons. However.... I hid it like a furious thief whenever the deed went down. I had an extremely sort of visceral reaction to the idea of Mr KH getting off on anything about me and my other person. That was private between me and the side dish see and none of his business. It felt like having him in the bedroom as a tag along for a threesome and it felt gross. Mr Cock Cage may be feeling something similar. I also hated the idea of him "knowing" about it because that to me felt like "permission" and at that point in my life I wanted no one's opinion on who I shared my pussy with besides my own (yeah this was around when I was starting to feel really uncomfortable in my long term role as a sub too...and working out in my own head how I felt about being submissive and the concept of BDSM in general... take that as one may...).
Posted by wendykh on February 6, 2012 at 10:21 AM · Report this
164
Goodbye... (A long, slow goodbye.)
Posted by I woke up today and faced reality on February 6, 2012 at 12:26 PM · Report this
165
@ 164: Please stop. Go and write yourself that shit. There's no place for it here. Thank you very much. Have a good day. :-)
Posted by we know it's you pigeon sh*t;) on February 6, 2012 at 12:32 PM · Report this
166
Heck - I'd be in heaven with a gal like HITME!

Are there any more out there?
Posted by Chequemark on February 6, 2012 at 4:16 PM · Report this
167
Why is he telling HITME how unlikely his husband
is to find a kinky partner, while telling NICE
that he's bound to find a dominant partner.
She's certainly GGG, but not one in a million. There are plenty of kinky women. Check the Lust Lab.
Posted by jh3334 on February 6, 2012 at 5:09 PM · Report this
168
@166 my advice is to fall in love with a woman who is kinky and open-minded. Treat her well, build trust together, and be just as GGG (ie, eager to fulfill her kinks) as she is for you, or even a little extra for good luck and so it doesn't feel like you're keeping track.

@167 there are lots of kinky women, but more prefer to be submissive. Not that many are out there thinking "if only I could find a submissive, gender-bending man." I do think there are more men than women who like to take charge in bed. So the odds for NICE are better than for HITME's spouse looking to replace her. Also, note that Dan did tell NICE to look for someone open-minded rather than someone who already loves to dominate people.

Make your own by finding someone open-minded and being a great, giving partner -- that's the best way to get someone well disposed to your own kinks.
Posted by EricaP on February 6, 2012 at 6:17 PM · Report this
169
Ira Glass was faboo! Bring him back. Podcast crossover is a beautiful thing. Maybe bring in Terry Gross for a threeway?
Posted by longtimelistener on February 6, 2012 at 6:48 PM · Report this
170
@163, that's actually a good suggestion, a definite possibility; but isn't it covered by the idea that he likes the secrecy? The suggestion above was that he might have a kink for secrecy -- being aroused either by keeping things secret, or by the thrill of being discovered. You're suggesting he might want to keep some of his sex life exclusively for himself, the way you did; a different reason for the same desire for secrecy.

I wonder what Mr HITME would say.

Posted by ankylosaur on February 6, 2012 at 11:24 PM · Report this
171
@157(Mr Ven), I'd find it fascinating to see your final casting. You're so attentive to detail, I'm sure you'll make interesting choices.

Henry himself strucks me as more of a paleo-Gingrichian character than a precursor of Mr Savage -- I don't think there was much GGG in him, even less honesty, and the need to create a new church just to give himself a divorce sounds like the kind of thing Mr Gingrich could argue in congress (perhaps successfully) as a matter of national security.
Posted by ankylosaur on February 6, 2012 at 11:29 PM · Report this
172
I meant 'strikes me', not 'strucks me'. No more posting before I get my morning cup of herbal tea.
Posted by ankylosaur on February 6, 2012 at 11:30 PM · Report this
sissoucat 173
As far as I remember, Henry VIII didn't want a divorce, he sought an annulment, on the ground that his wife of 23 years had been his deceased brother's wife for 6 months prior to their marriage (and was now to old to produce the male heir he desperately wanted) - the argument being that Leviticus somewhere didn't agree of a brother marrying his brother's widow, although to be fair I think Leviticus asks somewhere else for a brother to marry his deceased brother's widow, in order to give the deceased a progeny.

He just wanted a male heir, because in those days and age, his only surviving child being female (Mary Tudor), he felt that the crown might escape her (in the end it didn't). And the Catholic Church wasn't in too much of a hurry to please him with this annulment, since the Pope was being held prisonner by his wife's nephew.

It seems it was not as much an issue of sexual freedom, as an issue of siring a legitimate son.

I've read that Ann Boleyn made him wait for years and became his mistress only shortly before they were married ; if it's true, she's the one who forced him into creating a new Church by being un-GGG... and that Church did annul his 1st marriage as he wished.
Posted by sissoucat on February 7, 2012 at 6:47 AM · Report this
174
I wonder if Ann Boleyn ever went bowling and used her own noggin as a bowling ball ;) . Eh, I bet she played soccer, or football; the U.K. version.. Bet she can regenerate new heads to grow likethat! That's why she can go bowling with her own head under her arm. Although, those frilly dresses and things she wears: it must get in the way of being limber enough to nail three spares and a strike in quick succession! :-)
Posted by It's a genuine chinscratcher :-) on February 7, 2012 at 6:57 AM · Report this
you're right: i should go blonde 175
Henry VIII: he's always the one you see waving a massive turkey leg in the air, isn't he? Big Man chowin' down on a turkey leg. Like those ham-like turkey legs you find at every turn when you are inside 'Disneyworld' in Florida.

:-)

Henry rocks. He got it done. Can't knock his hustle!

Annulments: Because you guys were speaking of them in here, I decided to read up more on them. What amazes me about them is how any children born into a marriage that was subsequently annulled are still considered legally-legitimate children. That's pretty amazing..

Henry VIII's separation of The Church Of England and The Roman Catholic Church is nothing short of amazing, considering the time he accomplished this.

So what he had a hundred wives? Being The King :-) has its perks! Why not enjoy them?

Anne Boleyn sounds like she was The One lol. Up until getting her poor noggin lopped off on charges of treason and incest. Such progressives even back then in the 1500's.

I wanna start The Anne Boleyn Bowling Foundation.

We can even market commemorative bowling balls with her image re-created on them. I think the statute of limitations for appropriating a 1500's royal monarch should have expired by now, wouldn't you say? :-)

I'd go bowling with a bowling ball decked out to look like Anne Boleyn. I probably would stop the buck at illustrating bloody entrails and microfilaments of tissue...

The Anne Boleyn Bowling Tourney!

Blonde as I would like to be :-) .
Posted by you're right: i should go blonde on February 7, 2012 at 8:06 AM · Report this
you're right: i should go blonde 176
Is it true that Wallis Simpson was something of a hermaphrodite? She must've had it going on if she got King Edward to adbicate the throne. She must have really put out for him to have done that! Poor Madonna, getting shat on for directing that movie about them ('W.E.').

Madonna tries, she works hard and I thought she rather kicked ass for the half-time show. Not bad for a fifty-three-year-old broad! That, and I guess she pulled a hamstring during rehearsals..

Henry VIII was pretty radical and forward-thinking for a guy in the 1500's. That's awesome.
Posted by you're right: i should go blonde on February 7, 2012 at 8:56 AM · Report this
177
Yes, the necessity of the Male Heir rather obscures the issue. But, had it not been for that - had Mary been male or had a full brother, Henry and Catharine might well have remained the picture of one-sided monogamy that they were for most of their marriage.

But, moving on - Anne Boleyn received arguably the worst treatment from Henry of the whole lot, took greater exception to his deception than any of the other wives, and was evangelical, which at the time was definitely on the liberal end of the scale. While we have several feminists whom I could easily envision in a contemporary equivalent of having vernacular Bibles smuggled into England hidden in consignments of French underclothing, the marital details we know pushes AB in the direction of Ms Erica, who, I hope, will not be too offended if I speculate that she would be at least in theory as open as anybody here to the possibility of incest, one of the major false accusations against Anne.

Jane Seymour is much easier. Providing the male heir made her quite a saint, and I'm sure we would not need a series of caucuses and primaries to nominate Ms Kim for that position. Thankfully, the state of medicine in our time is rather superiour to what it was then.

Anne of Cleves received a rather unfair quantity of blame for the unsatisfactory state of the marital relations, but, by way of compensation, seemed to have rather the happiest time of the group. Without making an explicit statement about the desirability of divorce, I wish the appropriate happy ending on our unfairly-cut-off Mr J.

Catherine Howard probably seems far more sympathetic at such a historical divide, and one might reasonably say that most of the criticism directed towards her would be considered quite unfair and misogynistic - had she not undertaken a role of which the primary requirement was sexual fidelity. Similarly, it would be reasonable to complain about her being unfairly shamed for her pre-marital history - had she not colluded in misrepresentation on a material point. With her conduct as Queen factored in, we have here someone who took on an outside partner in clear violation of understood rules, and was foolishly deceptive in a way sure to be found out - in short, however little he may have been such a way in the past, Mr Erica.

My apologies to anyone who feels unfairly excluded. Please feel free to make a case.
More...
Posted by vennominon on February 7, 2012 at 9:28 AM · Report this
you're right: i should go blonde 178
@ 177, vennominon: To quote you, if I may..

"My apologies to anyone who feels unfairly excluded. Please feel free to make a case."

I sure don't feel that, and I hope you don't either :). That goes for everyone else in here, too.

That's wild: the irony is is that my paternal grandparents' names were Henry and Catherine.

Cool. ;)
Posted by you're right: i should go blonde on February 7, 2012 at 10:12 AM · Report this
nocutename 179
Mr. Ven,
But who are you?
Surely not Cardinal Woolsey or Cromwell.

Now I feel like watching that old BBC "The Six Wives of Henry VIII," or "The Tudors."
Sometimes I feel like Mary Tudor, and sometimes like Thomas Moore (I teach "Utopia," after all)

Posted by nocutename on February 7, 2012 at 11:32 AM · Report this
180
I don't want to be AB, a cock tease if there ever was one and hideously cruel to Catherine and little Mary.

I'll be Cromwell, if Mr. Ven doesn't want the job, as I stick my nose in everywhere and have a high opinion of my own advice :-) Also, happy to support king Dan's right to jettison traditional understandings of marriage.
Posted by EricaP on February 7, 2012 at 11:45 AM · Report this
you're right: i should go blonde 181
Ol' Annie must've been a real piece of work if they went ahead and beheaded her! Eesh! Talk about knarly karma coming back to get you!
Posted by you're right: i should go blonde on February 7, 2012 at 1:10 PM · Report this
you're right: i should go blonde 182
@ 180, EricaP: Your advice serves us all well. Your props to yourself are most applauded by the masses. Take your bows, luv :-) .
Posted by you're right: i should go blonde on February 7, 2012 at 1:12 PM · Report this
you're right: i should go blonde 183
Thanks for a good day in here :) . Peace Y'all.
Posted by you're right: i should go blonde on February 7, 2012 at 1:52 PM · Report this
184
@177 Mr V
I've lost my interest in "happy endings" although I'm truly touched by your words.
Posted by Mr. J on February 7, 2012 at 2:26 PM · Report this
185
That was quite an interesting read, Mr Ven. You have quite a knack for historical parallels. (Despite the anachronism, I might perhaps nominate Seattleblues et caterva for the role of Witchfinder General. He strikes me as someone Mr Hopkins might have simpathized with.)

Posted by ankylosaur on February 7, 2012 at 3:06 PM · Report this
186
@182, thank you for the kind words. Your recent appearance after pigeon left yesterday suggests that the two of you (or more?) inhabit the same physical body. I'm happy to see you in a good mood today, but I urge you to find someone in real life you can talk to. (And, yes, mydriasis, I'm aware of the irony in me recommending that other people get some help with their obsessive Slog posting...)
Posted by EricaP on February 7, 2012 at 3:34 PM · Report this
mydriasis 187
@ 186
wait... why me?

@ven
I want in!
Posted by mydriasis on February 7, 2012 at 5:41 PM · Report this
188
@187, you were among those last year recommending I take a break from Slog, for my own good, which is essentially what I'm suggesting for pigeon.
Posted by EricaP on February 7, 2012 at 6:17 PM · Report this
mydriasis 189
are you sure?
huh.
Posted by mydriasis on February 7, 2012 at 7:00 PM · Report this
190
@189 mydriasis
That's my recollection as well.
Posted by Mr. J on February 7, 2012 at 7:23 PM · Report this
191
@189 - I went back and looked (Daddy Issues @July 13, 2011 was the thread), and you just made a brief comment that I could benefit from some therapy. Which, in retrospect, was probably right. Sorry for naming you -- I meant to be humorously self-deprecating but perhaps I hit the wrong note.
Posted by EricaP on February 7, 2012 at 8:37 PM · Report this
mydriasis 192
@Erica

no not at all, I was just totally bewildered!
No need to be sorry, and thanks for filling me in. I have the worst memory.
Posted by mydriasis on February 8, 2012 at 5:14 AM · Report this
193
Ms Erica - I suppose it could be expanded to outside characters, but you'd never be Cromwell, going all in on the Cleves marriage. Would you prefer Cranmer? You occasionally show a somewhat Cranmerian tendency to rethink your rethinking on things. But if I were to expand, I'd probably suggest either of the two Marys for you (sister or daughter).I suspect the sister would attract you more, insisting on her own agency in her second marriage.

If I retire into the director's chair, that would open up Katherine Parr for Ms Cute. Or I could be Jane Grey, with a preference for studying Greek over the joys of matrimony, a disinclination for thrones - and it would tie in well to my lingering expectation of being wrongfully imprisoned under some future hostile administration.

Ms Driasis - Whom do you want? Make a case. George Boleyn, perhaps, who scorned the opportunity to save his own life during his trial? One of the Seymour brothers? I don't know why brothers came to mind first, but it didn't seem that either Elizabeth or Mary Queen of Scots would appeal to you. If it weren't too small a part, you could be one of the princesses who declined to succeed Jane Seymour. I could see you saying that, if you had two heads, one would be at Henry's service.

Mr Blues could be Bishop Gardiner, but I think I prefer Wriothesley, with all those wriodiculothousley superfluous letters in the spelling.
Posted by vennominon on February 8, 2012 at 9:20 PM · Report this
194
Cranmer works for me -- sexy enough and managed to get Erasmus a pension, which I like to think I'd do if it were in my power :-)

Re Mary-the-sister, do you mean Mary Tudor or Mary Boleyn? They both had happier second marriages, and got to live out their lives in relative obscurity. (I say live out their lives, but MT died at 37 and MB died at 44, so it's all relative. Guess I'd rather be MB, so I'd still have 18 months to live, rather than having died five years ago!)
Posted by EricaP on February 9, 2012 at 9:00 AM · Report this
you're right: i should go blonde 195
@ 186, EricaP: You are correct on all spoken fronts. It is I, a much-humbled, remorseful, *smarter* pigeon park.

One thing you can always count on with me is that I'll never be the type to delay copping to when I've been wrong.

Thanks for the kind words likewise, EricaP.
Pigeon Park has been mowed down yet. It's still being held up with beaurocratic red tape lol.

Peace :-) .
Posted by you're right: i should go blonde on February 9, 2012 at 11:46 AM · Report this
196
@195 Hugs :-)
Posted by EricaP on February 9, 2012 at 12:03 PM · Report this
you're right: i should go blonde 197
@ 196, EricaP: :-) THANK YOU :-) .

It's so much easier for me to be nice (believe it or not! ;) ) than it is to be an a'hole quadrosuprodeluxemofukkey douche canoe in a dog shite shoe lol.

:-D

Hugs right back at ya :-) .

Thanks Again,
The Blonde Pigeon: An Old Crow;)!
Posted by you're right: i should go blonde on February 9, 2012 at 12:22 PM · Report this
198
Ms Erica - Henry's sister, decidedly.
Posted by vennominon on February 9, 2012 at 6:28 PM · Report this
199
Pigeon,

Whether or not you post here is beside the point. You are clearly suffering needlessly. Go to a psychiatrist, a real one with an M.D. or an A.R.N.P., a therapist would be inadequate.

Everyone who says that "no one needs to hear that" Speak for yourselves. Pigeon_park isn't bothering me but his pain certainly is.

I hope you feel better, Pigeon.
Posted by Lord Domly Pants's Bane on February 19, 2012 at 11:01 PM · Report this
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I have one of those vanilla boys for a husband now, and he very thoughtfully indulges in any kinks I've asked him to -- it's not really his kink, but he likes seeing me get off and that trips my trigger so it all works out nicely:) Give it a shot and ease him into it.
Posted by AesSedai on February 23, 2012 at 12:06 PM · Report this
201
HITME, perhaps your husband *is* willing to discuss his online flirtations, but being a sub, cannot bring himself to do it willingly. Maybe once a week or so, tie him down and bind everything but his mouth really tight (or however he likes it best) and DEMAND he disclose. He wouldn't want to make his dominatrix unhappy, now would he? ......
Posted by Steve I. on March 12, 2012 at 5:46 PM · Report this
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Snooping is always WRONG! - I definitely agree with this, I used to snoop before with my bf's Facebook messages and emails..but I stop this because I got paranoid when his ex sent him a message which actually doesn't mean anything to him at all.
Posted by cathy_lee on March 30, 2012 at 6:08 AM · Report this

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