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Boys, Boys, Boys
March 28, 2012
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Joe Newton
I am the father of a recently out 18-year-old gay boy. Here's the problem: My son is in a relationship with a 31-year-old guy. I'm not okay with that. Yes, my son is a legal adult at 18 and can make his own decisions, but he's also still in high school. His mother argues that in order to be supportive, we can't object to this relationship. I don't think this is a gay versus straight objection. If I had an 18-year-old heterosexual daughter who was in a relationship with a 31-year-old man, I would have exactly the same concerns and objections. Beyond that, even if I can establish that it's okay to have an objection, or to feel the need to take some action to be supportive for my son, I don't know what I can or should do. What say you, oh wise one?
One Concerned Dad
Your wife is wrong.
Homophobic parents are bad for gay kids. But "supportive" parents who let their gay kids get away with murder—supportive parents who stop parenting their gay kids because they worry about seeming homophobic if they object to lousy gay boyfriends, choices, apparel, etc.—aren't doing their gay kids any favors, either. Your son, despite what he might tell you, needs his parents to advise him, meddle in his affairs, even object and interfere.
Here's what I would do if I were in your shoes, OCD—I would take my son's 31-year-old boyfriend out for a beer and ask him a lot of pointed questions: How did you meet my son? Are you having sex with my son? Are you using condoms? What is your HIV status? How old was your last boyfriend? And, finally, do you realize that I will tear you gay limb from gay limb if you hurt my gay kid?
As for your son, OCD, tell him that you realize gay guys his age sometimes date older men because there aren't a lot of boys his own age to choose from. (If you didn't already know that, now you do.) And tell your son that this gay dude you know—that would be me, OCD—told you that something's usually wrong when a 31-year-old is dating a teenager. Something's usually wrong with the 31-year-old. There are exceptions, of course, and maybe his boyfriend is exceptional—maybe he's not a jerk who pursues naive boys because gay men his own age can see through his shit—but the simple fact of his age requires that he be subjected to a higher degree of scrutiny than a first boyfriend who was closer to your son's own age.
Finally, OCD, tell your son that you know he's an adult and free to date whomever he wants. But you're his dad and he has to hear you out—whether he wants to or not.
I'm 16 and an openly gay boy in a very welcoming community. My first boyfriend and I broke up recently. We'll be friends again, I'm sure, but now I don't even have a hint of any sort of anything on the horizon, and it's driving me insane. All the out gay guys here are nice, but most are sassy stereotypical caricature flamer types and I'm not attracted to any of them. But those are the kind of people who are out at 16. I just hate thinking I'm alone for the foreseeable future. I know the logical thing is for me to wait, but how am I supposed to wait? Is there any alternative?
Whiny Angsty Sad Teen Entreats Dan
Sorry, WASTED, but you're gonna get the same advice I give to hard and hard-up 16-year-old straight boys: Worry less about getting your 16-year-old self laid and more about getting your 20-year-old self laid. Get out of the house and do shit, get books and read shit, volunteer for a political organization and change shit. You'll have more boys to choose from in a few years and you'll be a more interesting, more informed, more attractive guy thanks to all that doing, reading, and volunteering. Beat off in the interim, WASTED, remembering to vary your masturbatory routine (left hand, right hand; firm grip, soft touch; with toys, without; lots of lube, just a drop; etc.), and try to cultivate your own erotic imagination (translation: Don't jerk off to internet porn exclusively; use your imagination once in a while).
I'm not telling you that you should wait until you're 20 to date. But you'll find the next few years less aggravating if you take the long view and keep busy, all the while jerking it to your part's content. And who knows? You might meet a nice boy while you're out there doing shit.
As for those "sassy stereotypical caricature flamer types," WASTED...
SSCFTs can be attractive, and some guys are into SSCFTs. But some boys react to the pressures of being young, gay, and out by dialing it up to 20. It's a force field—it's a fierce field—that many SSCFTs eventually drop. Which is to say: You may have already met your next boyfriend, WASTED, but his fierce field was up. You might want to give 'em a little time.
My 13-year-old nephew, who is straight, was in a play last year. It was a very positive experience. The only problem is one of the theater group's fans, who is 50 and gay, befriended my sister and seems to be fixated on my nephew: He posts to my nephew's Facebook page, he's constantly asking my sister to allow my nephew to spend the night at his apartment, etc. I would like you to weigh in on this situation, Dan. Other family members share my suspicions, but we're afraid to say anything to my sister because she has a temper. Should I go ahead and tell my sister and brother-in-law that I think the guy is attracted to my nephew?
A Worried Aunt
Thanksgiving, 2019: "I'm so sorry you got raped when you were 13. I thought something was off about that guy. But I didn't say anything at the time because I was afraid your mom would yell at me. So, um, pass the yams?"
Unless you're looking forward to making an apology like that after your nephew confronts his whole family for failing to protect him when he was a child, AWA, you should speak the fuck up. Talk to your sister, temper be damned, and talk to your nephew, too. Your sister could be color-blind in addition to being an angerbomb—prone to rages and incapable of seeing red flags—and it's possible that your nephew already told his mother that this man makes him uncomfortable and got yelled at himself.
Firmly raise your concerns, AWA, but don't make accusations. You may not have all the information. It's possible that this man has no sexual interest in your nephew. It's also possible that your nephew is gay, recently came out to his mother and father but wasn't ready to come out to his extended family, and this man is mentoring your nephew at your sister's request. But even so, fiftysomething gay men do not invite 13-year-old boys to sleepovers for the same reason fiftysomething straight men don't invite 13-year-old girls to sleepovers: Suspicions will be aroused, even if nothing else is. In my opinion, the invite itself is a mentor-disqualifying display of piss-poor judgment.
Speak up, AWA.
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1
All three, spot on!
Your advice to WASTED should be in calligraphy, framed, and hung on the walls of every single high school bathroom, male or female.
Your advice to WASTED should be in calligraphy, framed, and hung on the walls of every single high school bathroom, male or female.
3
Re: question 1: When my gay friend (I'm female) was 19, he hooked up with a guy who was in his 40s. That weirded me out (I was 20). Granted, my friend wasn't living with his parents at the time, so he could do what he wanted. Friend is now 32 and doesn't seem scarred from the experience.
5
Clever strategy: putting the 18 vs 31 year old letter before the 13 vs 50 year old one, thus creating a heightened "yuck" effect.
6
@LM: plural, anecdote, data, etc. It is legitimately awesome that your gay friend had a non-damaging (or even positive) experience with a much older partner. That doesn't change the fact that in general such relationships tend to be unhealthy and therefore warrant a higher degree of scrutiny. Dan's comment is spot on.
7
The advice to Wasted is the same advice Ovid gave to people suffering heartbreak, an ended affair and/or other love/sex suckiness--which was basically, do other shit. Though he phrased it less succinctly, as ancient Roman poets were wont to do.
btw, anyone have an idea why the advice on varying the jerking off style? is it to make it more entertaining or make sure he doesn't get too married to one particular technique? i don't have a dick or anything, but I am curious for...well, i don't know why, i just am. get off my back.
jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
btw, anyone have an idea why the advice on varying the jerking off style? is it to make it more entertaining or make sure he doesn't get too married to one particular technique? i don't have a dick or anything, but I am curious for...well, i don't know why, i just am. get off my back.
jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
8
Additional point for OCD: if his son is still in high school, then there's a very good chance he's still living under his parents' roof, eating their food, and spending their money. And that gives OCD a lot more cause to mettle than if his son were living on his own.
10
To inbed (#7): I believe Dan calls it the "death grip": boys/men who don't take the long view can become so accustomed to their own firm grip that they become incapable of having an orgasm with the less-firm grip of mouth, anus, or vagina. That is, they're training their dicks not to respond to the kind of stimulus they actually want in the future. I was with a guy like this, who needed to pound-pound-pound and even then couldn't always come. Not much fun.
11
@3, there might be a difference--how long was this hookup between your 19 y/o friend and the forty-something guy? OCD says his son is in a relationship, which sounds more emotionally involved than a hookup.
12
If I were OCD I'd go online and check to see if the 31 y.o. was a registered sex offender. It might change things if the answer was yes.
13
@7: It's to avoid training one's dick to respond only to the Grip Of Death With Dominant Hand, or in this case GODWDH plus internet porn, because when you have the option of an actual sexual partner it will not work this way.
14
Most of my relationships have had age differences close to those in the OCD letter. I've been in that difference with an older partner and a bigger difference with a younger partner.
I am both angry enough to withhold details and calm enough not to respond as if this were a personal attack. Yet. Excommunication wouldn't surprise me, though.
I am both angry enough to withhold details and calm enough not to respond as if this were a personal attack. Yet. Excommunication wouldn't surprise me, though.
16
Fantastic advice to the 16 year old. Dan, I want you to write a teen sex-ed book so I don't have to give masturbation advice to my children (but someone needs to!)
17
Re: age gaps...
Oh sure, when you're 15 and "older" means mid twenties, then it's all fine and dandy. Now that I'm in my early twenties I have a strict age cutoff. Women my age who go for older men baffle the shit out of me. But I guess they want different things out of their partners than I do.
Oh sure, when you're 15 and "older" means mid twenties, then it's all fine and dandy. Now that I'm in my early twenties I have a strict age cutoff. Women my age who go for older men baffle the shit out of me. But I guess they want different things out of their partners than I do.
18
Mentor-Disqualifying Display of Piss-Poor Judgment would make a good name for a band.
Good column this week, Dan, and looking forward to the premiere of Savage U on MTV, April 3rd. Any Nielsen households should note that advertisers get happy faces from live viewers (even more if you make a party of it and have friends aged 18-34 over), while DVR'd shows, especially those that sit in your queue for over 24 hours, make Nielsen and advertisers very sad.
Good column this week, Dan, and looking forward to the premiere of Savage U on MTV, April 3rd. Any Nielsen households should note that advertisers get happy faces from live viewers (even more if you make a party of it and have friends aged 18-34 over), while DVR'd shows, especially those that sit in your queue for over 24 hours, make Nielsen and advertisers very sad.
19
I draw the line at "my father's age." It creeped me the hell out when my dad briefly dated a girl who was younger than me.
20
as a product of the 18 vs. 31, mine being 16 vs. 36... I've a different outlook on the relationship now, comparatively speaking, as to when I was a horny 16 year old.
21
Hey AWA.....
The OTHER thing you can do is say to your nephew, hey, if this guy (or any other) is making YOU uncomfortable, tell me, and I'll deal with it. As in, you as his aunt and a trusted adult will listen to him when he says something doesn't feel right or is pushing his boundaries in a way he doesn't want, and you will talk to your sister and/or the person who is pushing them, and say, back off.
If the guy in question has any consideration for your nephew, he will respond to a politely worded back the heck off (do not ask him to sleep over, do not ask him to do XXX, stop doing YYY because it makes him uncomfortable). If, after being asked to stop, he continues what he's doing, that a big red warning flag.
The OTHER thing you can do is say to your nephew, hey, if this guy (or any other) is making YOU uncomfortable, tell me, and I'll deal with it. As in, you as his aunt and a trusted adult will listen to him when he says something doesn't feel right or is pushing his boundaries in a way he doesn't want, and you will talk to your sister and/or the person who is pushing them, and say, back off.
If the guy in question has any consideration for your nephew, he will respond to a politely worded back the heck off (do not ask him to sleep over, do not ask him to do XXX, stop doing YYY because it makes him uncomfortable). If, after being asked to stop, he continues what he's doing, that a big red warning flag.
22
I think kids need to be protected not only from improper situations, but even the appearance of them. And a man in his 50's asking for someone other than a blood relative to spend the night falls way beyond the pale. Even if the older guy's intentions are purely innocent, he's setting himself up for a world of hurt.
Anybody remember a guy called Michael Jackson?
Anybody remember a guy called Michael Jackson?
23
@Mydriasis: I completely agree about only dating guys within your age range; usually 0-3 years. MAYBE 5 years. I've also never understood why girls date older guys. It just isn't for me.
Dan nailed all three!!
Regarding varying the grip; good to know. I'll remember have to remember that for my future son - gay or straight.
Dan nailed all three!!
Regarding varying the grip; good to know. I'll remember have to remember that for my future son - gay or straight.
24
For the record: At age 30, I began a live-in relationship with a guy I had already known for a year and a half at the Arts Institute (College) we were both attending. I knew we had a big age difference, but we hadn't discussed numbers.
A few months into the relationship, his b'day came around, and I asked, "Oh, how old are you going to be?" His reply, "18." EIGHTEEN!!
I was aghast! It was a college! I had known him for 1 1/2 years prior to the relationship! We discussed it and decided to continue together. At least he was no longer jail bait... (Whew!)
The first time his parents came to visit and meet me, they brought us a water-bed they were getting rid of. I was amazed and impressed and, most fortunately, they liked me too. They were rather progressive, to say the least.
Long story short, 3 1/2 years into the relationship, we were sabotaged by a third party and broke up. I didn't find out about the sabotage 'til a decade later. (That's the VERY abridged version.)
The breakup was in the summer of '83. To this day, we have the greatest of friendships, which includes his current partner, now husband, of 27 yrs., who is 3 yrs. older than me! (I)
It's not always creepy...
A few months into the relationship, his b'day came around, and I asked, "Oh, how old are you going to be?" His reply, "18." EIGHTEEN!!
I was aghast! It was a college! I had known him for 1 1/2 years prior to the relationship! We discussed it and decided to continue together. At least he was no longer jail bait... (Whew!)
The first time his parents came to visit and meet me, they brought us a water-bed they were getting rid of. I was amazed and impressed and, most fortunately, they liked me too. They were rather progressive, to say the least.
Long story short, 3 1/2 years into the relationship, we were sabotaged by a third party and broke up. I didn't find out about the sabotage 'til a decade later. (That's the VERY abridged version.)
The breakup was in the summer of '83. To this day, we have the greatest of friendships, which includes his current partner, now husband, of 27 yrs., who is 3 yrs. older than me! (I)
It's not always creepy...
25
Handy formula to determine the appropriate minimum age for a romantic partner: Your age divided by two plus seven.
A thirty-one year old should be pursuing none younger than 22.5.
50 years old? No younger than 32.
Works like a charm.
A thirty-one year old should be pursuing none younger than 22.5.
50 years old? No younger than 32.
Works like a charm.
26
I am a straight female medical student, and one of my friends at school is a gay dude my same age (27) who is in a LTR with a guy who I guess to be in his mid-50s. And not that insane ageless super-hot mid-50s that gay guys somehow manage at times, but a really average, sort of dumpy mid-50s (think dad). My friend says he's always been attracted to older guys, and they seem to be really happy and have a very normal relationship; they even come to most of our school parties, which I think is very sweet, as those are mostly the fodder of drunk 24-year-olds.
Personally I don't get it at all as far as the physical attraction goes, but my friend is happy, and his boyfriend seems happy and is able to provide a much more secure living situation than my friend's dubious and hateful Catholic upbringing. So while I'm definitely suspicious of massive age gaps in relationships in general, it really does seem to work sometimes. My friend is not an idiot and is not being taken advantage of. I just try to refrain from being squicked by this funny dad-man being his boyfriend.
Personally I don't get it at all as far as the physical attraction goes, but my friend is happy, and his boyfriend seems happy and is able to provide a much more secure living situation than my friend's dubious and hateful Catholic upbringing. So while I'm definitely suspicious of massive age gaps in relationships in general, it really does seem to work sometimes. My friend is not an idiot and is not being taken advantage of. I just try to refrain from being squicked by this funny dad-man being his boyfriend.
27
#16: yes, yes, yes! sex-ed book for teens, what a fantastic idea. pretty pretty puh-leees, dan. i'm sure you're very busy and whatnot, but this would do such wonderful good for so many. imagine a world of sex-savvy teens!
28
Re age difference, I believe there is a huge distinction between a much older person dating someone 20 or up (with a couple of years of legal adulthood under the belt), or even 18 and out of their parents' house, and a much older person dating someone who is barely legal. Basically, once you're 20 or so all your partners should be finished with high school, in my view. If you're 22 and into someone's who's 52, go for it with my blessing. Taking responsibility for your choices like a grown-up of course.
It may technically be legal, but as Dan says raises a warning flag of someone who finds partners over 17 or 18 to be too independent minded. @24's situation, a student living away from home getting serious with a fellow student, is very different from the sort of guy hanging out at the pizza place checking high school students' IDs for who just turned 18 and is now legal to nail.
It may technically be legal, but as Dan says raises a warning flag of someone who finds partners over 17 or 18 to be too independent minded. @24's situation, a student living away from home getting serious with a fellow student, is very different from the sort of guy hanging out at the pizza place checking high school students' IDs for who just turned 18 and is now legal to nail.
29
(Apologies if this posts twice.) Re age gap:
There's a huge difference between relationships between two adults with a big age gap, and relationships between much older adults and the barely legal (for sexual consent). It's not the size of the gap, it's the extreme power imbalance. As Dan says, a man who's found that partners older than 17 or 18 challenge him too much raises red flags, however much he may talk about falling for the person and it just being coincidence that it only works out with people still taking algebra.
I would set a soft line of about 20, after which all partners should be out of high school. (Or that half age plus seven is a fine guide up until the younger partner is 18 and out of their parents' house.) 17 and 16 is very different from 37 and 16. 26 and 57, a 10 year bigger gap, meh. Go for it.
I also like what Dan says about your child in high school living under your roof being entitled to a certain level of interference regarding his or her allowable dating choices. Parents should try to be wise about not writing themselves into a Shakespearean tragedy, but let's make moving out and achieving independence look appealing.
There's a huge difference between relationships between two adults with a big age gap, and relationships between much older adults and the barely legal (for sexual consent). It's not the size of the gap, it's the extreme power imbalance. As Dan says, a man who's found that partners older than 17 or 18 challenge him too much raises red flags, however much he may talk about falling for the person and it just being coincidence that it only works out with people still taking algebra.
I would set a soft line of about 20, after which all partners should be out of high school. (Or that half age plus seven is a fine guide up until the younger partner is 18 and out of their parents' house.) 17 and 16 is very different from 37 and 16. 26 and 57, a 10 year bigger gap, meh. Go for it.
I also like what Dan says about your child in high school living under your roof being entitled to a certain level of interference regarding his or her allowable dating choices. Parents should try to be wise about not writing themselves into a Shakespearean tragedy, but let's make moving out and achieving independence look appealing.
30
One friend started handling the whom-teens-date problem when her children were in pre-school. She had the home where everyone was invited and everyone wanted to be. Friends were welcome whether that was for peanut butter and jelly or ping pong or video games or studying for the SATs. Everyone in the house met the parents as a matter of course. It never seemed like the parents were evaluating the children's choices in friends. When the kids were old enough to begin dating, it was only natural that the parents would know the people the children were going out with. If there was suddenly someone a child didn't want his/her parents to meet, that's when the red flag went up. Make it 2 red flags if the date didn't want to meet the parents. The question would immediately be "why not?" While there might be good answers to that question (I can't think of one), the important point is that the question is asked.
Which is all to say that Dan's answer makes sense. Let's say that OCD meets that 31 year old man and, miracle of miracles, likes him. Let's say he passes the test. Let's say the guy is condom using, considerate, HIV negative, mature, has things in common with the 18 year old son, and doesn't seem like a creep or a user. OCD invites him to dinner just as he has the rest of his son's friends. If the relationship really is safe, the guy will be fine with hanging out at his young boyfriend's home. If it's not, then we're back to Dan's tear limb from limb scenario.
Oh, and can we make that first meeting over coffee, not beer? Dan so often suggests alcohol, and while I'm not completely against it, I think it's generally safer without.
Which is all to say that Dan's answer makes sense. Let's say that OCD meets that 31 year old man and, miracle of miracles, likes him. Let's say he passes the test. Let's say the guy is condom using, considerate, HIV negative, mature, has things in common with the 18 year old son, and doesn't seem like a creep or a user. OCD invites him to dinner just as he has the rest of his son's friends. If the relationship really is safe, the guy will be fine with hanging out at his young boyfriend's home. If it's not, then we're back to Dan's tear limb from limb scenario.
Oh, and can we make that first meeting over coffee, not beer? Dan so often suggests alcohol, and while I'm not completely against it, I think it's generally safer without.
31
OCD, if you push your son to break up with this guy, you'll drive him even further into his arms. So, make your objections known once, but then drop it and let things play out. Hard, I know, but he'll be more likely to come around to your point of view more quickly if he feels the decision is his to make.
32
I agree with you, IPJ, but I would set the soft cap a little higher, to 23. On average, most people develop fully adult reasoning at this age and not before.
33
In general I agree with Dan's advice re 13/50 yr old....one caveat (which probably isn't the case here) - the sister "has a temper" ... is the nephew perhaps gay, scared to come out at home because he'll get yelled at or abused? is he already getting abused? is the 50 yr old seen as a "safe haven"? Are there other issues going on here?
Ok, I'm probably over-complicating things, but just wanted to offer an alternative scenario. The aunt might want to talk to the nephew about stuff like that...
Ok, I'm probably over-complicating things, but just wanted to offer an alternative scenario. The aunt might want to talk to the nephew about stuff like that...
34
@32: I deliberately went close to the age of legal adulthood, which is 18. In part because I don't like the ever-sliding age of adult responsibility when the age at which to enjoy adult privileges doesn't also slide. Usually it seems that 'in a romantic/sexual relationship' behavior is the only one on which people want a maturity pass to treat others crappily; if it's getting a job with responsibility or signing for buying a car or a lease or having any sort of sex that appeals to them or all sorts of other stuff, they insist they are of course able to make mature adult decisions.
In part because, while I accept that 16 year olds have sex, the consequences of sex are very adult. Emotionally, for what it does potentially to your and a partner's feelings. Physically, in terms of things that can affect the two of you, and a child, and all future partners of yourself or your current partner... It would be nice if we could rule those consequences don't come in until 18 or 21 and it's all fun exploration until then, but that's not how it works. I want my social norms to acknowledge reality, which would include both that people in high school have sex and that that sex can have consequences for them and for others.
In part because, while I accept that 16 year olds have sex, the consequences of sex are very adult. Emotionally, for what it does potentially to your and a partner's feelings. Physically, in terms of things that can affect the two of you, and a child, and all future partners of yourself or your current partner... It would be nice if we could rule those consequences don't come in until 18 or 21 and it's all fun exploration until then, but that's not how it works. I want my social norms to acknowledge reality, which would include both that people in high school have sex and that that sex can have consequences for them and for others.
35
I'm 10 years older than my partner, but we didn't meet till I was in my 40s, he was in his 30s. That's a very different situation from the one described by OCD. Next month we'll celebrate our 15th anniversary. Still, it kind of freaks me out to consider that when I was 20 years old, he was only 10. Yikes!
36
43 year old bi male here, engaged to a wonderful (nearly) 25 year old woman. We got together when she was 22 (though I initially thought she was already in her mid-20s). Our original intentions were to hook up, have some hot sex for a while, and part as friends. Instead, we fell deeply in love.
I have to chuckle at the commenters wondering why women date older men. They do it because they are sexually attracted to older men, duh. And men date younger women because again, duh. This kind of relationship is hardly unusual. People assume, I suppose, that an age gap necessarily implies some sort of power play, and perhaps sometimes it does, but as I believe Dan has said in the past, youth and vitality have power just as much as age and wealth or experience.
Do may-december relationships last? I would guess that the odds are a little worse than it is for people in the same age cohort, but they don't have to be. It really depends on the individuals. I feel closer to my wonderful young bride-to-be than I ever dreamed possible compared to previous relationships with women closer to my age. If you can't seem to find the right partner, try opening your mind a little.
I have to chuckle at the commenters wondering why women date older men. They do it because they are sexually attracted to older men, duh. And men date younger women because again, duh. This kind of relationship is hardly unusual. People assume, I suppose, that an age gap necessarily implies some sort of power play, and perhaps sometimes it does, but as I believe Dan has said in the past, youth and vitality have power just as much as age and wealth or experience.
Do may-december relationships last? I would guess that the odds are a little worse than it is for people in the same age cohort, but they don't have to be. It really depends on the individuals. I feel closer to my wonderful young bride-to-be than I ever dreamed possible compared to previous relationships with women closer to my age. If you can't seem to find the right partner, try opening your mind a little.
39
@ 17, women your age who go for older men want one of two things: a mature man (you're still growing up in your 20s - it's the final stage of childhood, not your teens), or a man who has money to spend on her. Or both. But more often the latter.
40
@32 reminds me of this girl I go to college with...she's 21 and her boyfriend is 41. They met at a con, and within a year of dating they were living together and adopted a cat! And she/her parents (who still partially financially support her, I think she has a part time job) have to prop this guy up financially because his wages get garnished for child support, as he has two kids from a previous marriage.
I can't believe her parents are so supportive of the relationship, and they are VERY supportive based on the constant Facebook posts. She's a college student just learning how to live away from family. Living in a dorm and supporting herself with a part-time job while casually dating seems a lot better suited to her maturity level then quickly moving in with a guy twice her age and supporting him, herself, and a cat because he can't support himself. It seems like way too much way too soon. And she's potentially becoming step-mom to his kids, assuming he has any sort of custody/visitation rights?!
I just can't see any way this can end well.
I can't believe her parents are so supportive of the relationship, and they are VERY supportive based on the constant Facebook posts. She's a college student just learning how to live away from family. Living in a dorm and supporting herself with a part-time job while casually dating seems a lot better suited to her maturity level then quickly moving in with a guy twice her age and supporting him, herself, and a cat because he can't support himself. It seems like way too much way too soon. And she's potentially becoming step-mom to his kids, assuming he has any sort of custody/visitation rights?!
I just can't see any way this can end well.
41
Does it make me odd that I don't find 20 year olds all that attractive any more*? As a 50+, the concept of a 13 year old in my bed totally creeps me out; I can't understand the mindset of someone that would want to do so. I will admit that I've always been attracted to older women, however.
In my opinion the fixation on an inexperienced virgin, as opposed to an experienced lover, is kind of strange. The idea is to perform impure acts together, right? So of course I ended up being the training lover for a few girls, including my wife. Life works like that...
Peace.
* Nowadays I see kids like that as potential partners for my kids, when they (my kids) get older. It's weird to jump into grandparent mode before my kids leave the house.
In my opinion the fixation on an inexperienced virgin, as opposed to an experienced lover, is kind of strange. The idea is to perform impure acts together, right? So of course I ended up being the training lover for a few girls, including my wife. Life works like that...
Peace.
* Nowadays I see kids like that as potential partners for my kids, when they (my kids) get older. It's weird to jump into grandparent mode before my kids leave the house.
42
Dear Dan,
I'm 33 years old. If I was dating an 18-year-old guy, and his father came to me to say the things that you told him he should tell me, here is what I would reply.
"Mr. X, I understand that you are obviously concerned about your son's wellbeing. That's perfectly understandable and commendable. I think, however, that if you respect your son's ability to make enlightened decisions about his own life, most of these questions are questions you should be asking your son, and not me. I think you should tell him about your concerns regarding our relationship - it's perfectly fair of you to do so, and voicing concerns when you have them is what makes you a good father. I think also that you should ask him what he's getting out of our relationship, and rather than object or argue, you should spend some time reflecting on his answer, and show empathy for his needs. Then you can resume this conversation with him, and maybe agree on a compromise that would reassure you while ensuring that your son's needs are met.
Regarding my health, my HIV-status is a private matter. It does concern your son, and we've had this conversation together. It does not concern you, or anyone who I'm not considering as a potential lover. Once again, I understand your concern, but we barely know each other, and you are not entitled to details of my private life by the virtue of being my boyfriend's father.
Finally, once again, I understand your concern as a father, and I'm willing to continue this conversation with you if you want to two of us to know each other better. Being a concerned father, however, as never given you the right to threathen me. I do not tolerate threats. So if you want, you can apologize for that; I'll let it slide, and we can both continue this conversation together and enjoy the nice beer. Or I can tell your son that you threatened me, and ask him if I should call the police. What would you prefer?"
More...
I'm 33 years old. If I was dating an 18-year-old guy, and his father came to me to say the things that you told him he should tell me, here is what I would reply.
"Mr. X, I understand that you are obviously concerned about your son's wellbeing. That's perfectly understandable and commendable. I think, however, that if you respect your son's ability to make enlightened decisions about his own life, most of these questions are questions you should be asking your son, and not me. I think you should tell him about your concerns regarding our relationship - it's perfectly fair of you to do so, and voicing concerns when you have them is what makes you a good father. I think also that you should ask him what he's getting out of our relationship, and rather than object or argue, you should spend some time reflecting on his answer, and show empathy for his needs. Then you can resume this conversation with him, and maybe agree on a compromise that would reassure you while ensuring that your son's needs are met.
Regarding my health, my HIV-status is a private matter. It does concern your son, and we've had this conversation together. It does not concern you, or anyone who I'm not considering as a potential lover. Once again, I understand your concern, but we barely know each other, and you are not entitled to details of my private life by the virtue of being my boyfriend's father.
Finally, once again, I understand your concern as a father, and I'm willing to continue this conversation with you if you want to two of us to know each other better. Being a concerned father, however, as never given you the right to threathen me. I do not tolerate threats. So if you want, you can apologize for that; I'll let it slide, and we can both continue this conversation together and enjoy the nice beer. Or I can tell your son that you threatened me, and ask him if I should call the police. What would you prefer?"
43
I'm going to take Dan's side on all three, esp OCD. I was in a horrible relationship as a teenager (dude was 26 to my 16 yr old depressed girl). I was groomed and then sexually exploited, pretty much raped with my consent. Still unlearning the brainwashing that occurred.
Yes it could be ok, great even. But it could very much not ok too. Agree that OCD's kid's relationship warrants scrutiny and wish my parents had put a stop to it. Some people can con the parents too. Can't necessarily protect yr kid but you can educate them on healthy relationships and sexuality so that if things go south, they can't be made to think its something wrong with them as abusers would have them believe. May be uncomfortable having these conversations with yr kid but you will know you did everything you could.
Yes it could be ok, great even. But it could very much not ok too. Agree that OCD's kid's relationship warrants scrutiny and wish my parents had put a stop to it. Some people can con the parents too. Can't necessarily protect yr kid but you can educate them on healthy relationships and sexuality so that if things go south, they can't be made to think its something wrong with them as abusers would have them believe. May be uncomfortable having these conversations with yr kid but you will know you did everything you could.
44
"fiftysomething gay men do not invite 13-year-old boys to sleepovers for the same reason fiftysomething straight men don't invite 13-year-old girls to sleepovers: Suspicions will be aroused, even if nothing else is."
I cant think of any circumstances where a fifty yo inviting a child for a sleepover is not straight up pedophilia.
I cant think of any circumstances where a fifty yo inviting a child for a sleepover is not straight up pedophilia.
45
Dan: especially great job addressing OCD. Parental involvement/parents who listen are the greatest deterrent of creeps, when one is young & inexperienced. A true boyfriend, concerned about the younger partner 31-year-old, will understand why the boy's folks would want to give him the once-over & deal w/ good grace. A skeever would be outta there if the parents start giving him closer scrutiny.
46
AWA's fiftysomething gay man is in serious danger of being murdered by AWA's family and being buried in the woods. Sounds like he's stupid enough to deserve it, too.
47
@AWA
If you live in the US then I must say FAKE! No one writes for advice given such circumstances. People call the authorities or at least confront the predator and tell him off based on a lot less than this.
If you live in the US then I must say FAKE! No one writes for advice given such circumstances. People call the authorities or at least confront the predator and tell him off based on a lot less than this.
48
As a just-turned 20 year old woman in love with a soon to be 48 year old man, I strongly believe that age difference is outweighed by personality. Some middle aged guys are young at heart. They're a minority, certainly (as the swinger scene has taught me!), but older men who work well with younger women without having to throw money at them do exist.
So I agree that OCD should be concerned, the boyfriend certainly could be a creep, but if he trusts his son's judgment, there's a good possibility this older man is just one amazing motherfucker!
So I agree that OCD should be concerned, the boyfriend certainly could be a creep, but if he trusts his son's judgment, there's a good possibility this older man is just one amazing motherfucker!
50
@42 Queer,
You call the police, because there's no well in he'll I'd want my son with a manipulative POS like you.
You call the police, because there's no well in he'll I'd want my son with a manipulative POS like you.
51
@41 No that is not weird at all.
While I can appreciate young beauty objectively, the minimum age of whom I find sexually attractive has also increased with my own years.
While I can appreciate young beauty objectively, the minimum age of whom I find sexually attractive has also increased with my own years.
52
@50: yeah.
@42: If you meant that to come across as something that would convince a parent they had no business getting involved in the romantic life between you and their child, you missed by a mile. You might have that conversation with the parents of a 21 year old. 18, still in high school, lives at home? No, you do not get to blow off his (or her) parents' concern.
@42: If you meant that to come across as something that would convince a parent they had no business getting involved in the romantic life between you and their child, you missed by a mile. You might have that conversation with the parents of a 21 year old. 18, still in high school, lives at home? No, you do not get to blow off his (or her) parents' concern.
53
I always think the best way to tell a creep is how they react to the idea that they might be a creep.
A thoughtful, mature, non-sicko 31-year-old dating an 18-year-old will know perfectly well there are sicko predators out there, and that it's difficult for the 18-y-o's parents to know if he is one. So if he reacts with outrage at the accusation, he's not a thoughtful, mature, non-sicko.
A thoughtful, mature, non-sicko 31-year-old dating an 18-year-old will know perfectly well there are sicko predators out there, and that it's difficult for the 18-y-o's parents to know if he is one. So if he reacts with outrage at the accusation, he's not a thoughtful, mature, non-sicko.
54
@44 Apparently many branches of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organization allow overnights after six months or so of mentoring:
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
"The only rule that our agency has is that there are no overnights for the first six months of a match."
http://www.bbbssco.org/QA.html
"If you and your Little have been in the program 6 months, you are now able to have an overnight visit."
http://www.bbbs.org/site/c.mlIUIfN4JyE/b…
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
"The only rule that our agency has is that there are no overnights for the first six months of a match."
http://www.bbbssco.org/QA.html
"If you and your Little have been in the program 6 months, you are now able to have an overnight visit."
http://www.bbbs.org/site/c.mlIUIfN4JyE/b…
55
@ #25: Thank you! I love Dan's advice on all three of these but I cannot believe he didn't mention the Standard Creepiness Rule formula. Guess he's not a math geek. :-D
56
@48 -- that's a very sweet sentiment, but it will be interesting to see if you feel the same way at 35. Many, many of us have been in your shoes -- in fact, I think it's a rite of passage for many young women (to date the older guy). And while some do end up being amazing motherfuckers, that's the exception to the rule. Many more are losers that prey on younger women/men for the exact reasons Dan states -- because folks closer to their age would be able to call them on their shit or wouldn't put up with their shit so they're forced to look for younger folks with less experience and wisdom.
For the younger person, it can have many benefits -- very flattering (you think you're soooo mature), sexual mentorship, enjoy things materially that you couldn't (being wined and dined with nice dinners, tickets to concerts/theater, etc. -- things that are no big deal for the older person but seem extravagant to the younger person -- I wouldn't blink at paying $150 for dinner these days at 33, but back at 21, that would have been HUGE).
More often than not the younger ones outgrow the older ones and see it as a good learning experience (if there wasn't anything super predatory about it -- but more just a loser that despite his age, really never grew up and you want someone that's more on your level -- and let's face it, if he's on your level when you're 20 and he's 48, you're going to likely outgrow him soon).
---Former 21 year-old who dated a 39 year-old and felt the same way at 21 but not at all the same way at 25 or 33.
For the younger person, it can have many benefits -- very flattering (you think you're soooo mature), sexual mentorship, enjoy things materially that you couldn't (being wined and dined with nice dinners, tickets to concerts/theater, etc. -- things that are no big deal for the older person but seem extravagant to the younger person -- I wouldn't blink at paying $150 for dinner these days at 33, but back at 21, that would have been HUGE).
More often than not the younger ones outgrow the older ones and see it as a good learning experience (if there wasn't anything super predatory about it -- but more just a loser that despite his age, really never grew up and you want someone that's more on your level -- and let's face it, if he's on your level when you're 20 and he's 48, you're going to likely outgrow him soon).
---Former 21 year-old who dated a 39 year-old and felt the same way at 21 but not at all the same way at 25 or 33.
57
@42: That's an excellent response. That would show the father that you're exactly the kind of narcissistic pud who is just looking to prey on people who also don't have fully-formed interpersonal and relationship skills.
58
i'm 34, and these days i find anyone under about 28/30 just plain boring, or even irritating - not sexy at all. i've always liked the (x/2)+7 equation...
on the other hand, i have a friend who at 22 had been through a few girlfriends, with dramas > joys, and then hooked up with a 42 year old lawyer and had a solid functional relationship for a few years. the 22 year old was writing her phd, and needed someone who could keep up. their relationship was more equal than one with someone her own age.
also... where i live the age of consent is 16... in some countries it's 14...
on the other hand, i have a friend who at 22 had been through a few girlfriends, with dramas > joys, and then hooked up with a 42 year old lawyer and had a solid functional relationship for a few years. the 22 year old was writing her phd, and needed someone who could keep up. their relationship was more equal than one with someone her own age.
also... where i live the age of consent is 16... in some countries it's 14...
59
I'm currently living with my partner of 5 years, we met when I was 18 just starting college and was really just looking for a booty call. He was 30, turned 31 the night we first hooked up and things seemed to have turned out pretty well. He definitely fell in love with me faster than I did him, it was more than a few months after he said something that I reciprocated and he respected that. We went through a lot of things together, the death of my mother, my having been raped while on study abroad and the ensuing crazy emotional shit I went through and a bout of unemployment post-college, although I am working now. He obeyed the campsite rule, we've always treated each other as equals and we call each other on shit when we fight. He's my best friend on top of that and we love each other dearly.
We currently have an open and poly relationship and he doesn't just date women my age and gets along well with the partners he has his own age. we're both kinky and I have a bit of a masochistic side and out of being GGG he is enjoying learning that he has a bit of a sadistic side - we don't have a 24/7 dynamic, neither of us is interested in that and he treats me and thinks of me as his life partner and I treat him the same. I know that some men who date younger women are creeps, and he also acknowledges that there are creepy assholes out there who do that to manipulate their younger partners. I hate to say it but there are cases like that in the kinky community. But I don't think its fair to paint all of the age difference relationships with the same brush unless you have more detail about the older dude's lifestyle and general habits.
We currently have an open and poly relationship and he doesn't just date women my age and gets along well with the partners he has his own age. we're both kinky and I have a bit of a masochistic side and out of being GGG he is enjoying learning that he has a bit of a sadistic side - we don't have a 24/7 dynamic, neither of us is interested in that and he treats me and thinks of me as his life partner and I treat him the same. I know that some men who date younger women are creeps, and he also acknowledges that there are creepy assholes out there who do that to manipulate their younger partners. I hate to say it but there are cases like that in the kinky community. But I don't think its fair to paint all of the age difference relationships with the same brush unless you have more detail about the older dude's lifestyle and general habits.
60
@48 cytheria,
There are 20 year olds that are more mature than some 48 year olds will ever be. There are some 80 year olds that are younger at heart than some 20 year olds. Everyone is different, as are their families of origin, etc..
Most guys have probably run into the family compatibility problem, and a lot of women as well. As sucky as that can get, indifference would be worse.
Good luck with your relationship.
Peace.
There are 20 year olds that are more mature than some 48 year olds will ever be. There are some 80 year olds that are younger at heart than some 20 year olds. Everyone is different, as are their families of origin, etc..
Most guys have probably run into the family compatibility problem, and a lot of women as well. As sucky as that can get, indifference would be worse.
Good luck with your relationship.
Peace.
61
@41: I'm with you and I'm only 34. I'm sure circumstances vary but it seems like most of the twentysomethings I see are no more mature than teenagers.
66
"They do it because they are sexually attracted to older men, duh."
Um, needlessly obtuse. Obviously we're confused as to WHY they're sexually attracted to older men.
@39 Men who are mature date women their own age. (I said date, not fuck) *see the several testimonies above.
Why I wouldn't date older men? Biology.
1. If they're not already losing their looks/fitness, they'll lose them sooner than they would if they were my age.
2. Two words: refractory period.
But I'm a shallow motherfucker.
To women who date older men? God bless every one of you. Makes my life easier.
Um, needlessly obtuse. Obviously we're confused as to WHY they're sexually attracted to older men.
@39 Men who are mature date women their own age. (I said date, not fuck) *see the several testimonies above.
Why I wouldn't date older men? Biology.
1. If they're not already losing their looks/fitness, they'll lose them sooner than they would if they were my age.
2. Two words: refractory period.
But I'm a shallow motherfucker.
To women who date older men? God bless every one of you. Makes my life easier.
67
Oh also!
3. Mortality exists. Women already live longer than men so an older partner means added years of elderly lonliness. Pass.
3. Mortality exists. Women already live longer than men so an older partner means added years of elderly lonliness. Pass.
68
My,
I don't care what test scores you got. The proof is in your writing. You completely misunderstood Asterix. I am amazed at your confusion about prehistoric menstruations.
Her point was years of regular monthly menses as we have had recently are not natural.
I don't care what test scores you got. The proof is in your writing. You completely misunderstood Asterix. I am amazed at your confusion about prehistoric menstruations.
Her point was years of regular monthly menses as we have had recently are not natural.
69
You really ARE an amazing voice of reason...I am seriously printing this out and starting a folder of emergency wisdom for parents and teens, because at 9 years old, my daughter is already asking me things that I don't mind telling her, but really don't want some other kids horrified parents confronting me about what information I give her, because I'm rather liberal with the truth since I've had to tolerate my own ignorance thanks to being raised in a community where "we'll talk about that when you are more mature" or "this conversation is inappropriate" or some biblical reference about purity/godliness/lust/sin/hell was given instead of an honest answer.
I am committed to making sure my daughter is informed and given every bit of insight that it has taken me 42 years to acquire. Thank you for your support and guidance in how to present information rather than letting myself be surprised and panicky and defensive or suspicious or over reacting when these issues arise, because they all eventually do surface...I feel much more confident in my ability to relay a competent, satisfying answer, thanks to you. I can't express the depth of my appreciation for your critical thinking, compassionate, empathetic, common sense, realistic approach.
You are better than the best! I love your face off!
I am committed to making sure my daughter is informed and given every bit of insight that it has taken me 42 years to acquire. Thank you for your support and guidance in how to present information rather than letting myself be surprised and panicky and defensive or suspicious or over reacting when these issues arise, because they all eventually do surface...I feel much more confident in my ability to relay a competent, satisfying answer, thanks to you. I can't express the depth of my appreciation for your critical thinking, compassionate, empathetic, common sense, realistic approach.
You are better than the best! I love your face off!
70
@42: "Or I can tell your son that you threatened me, and ask him if I should call the police."
Hell, I'll tell him myself. This conversation just became a conference call, asshole.
Thanks for overplaying your hand, though.
Hell, I'll tell him myself. This conversation just became a conference call, asshole.
Thanks for overplaying your hand, though.
71
My,
Oh, and you think I'm going to lay off you? After your vicious, often obscene personal attacks on me? Don't think so.
Oh, and you think I'm going to lay off you? After your vicious, often obscene personal attacks on me? Don't think so.
73
@62: There's a reason why the insurance actuarial tables have a breakpoint at age 26. Brains aren't physically complete until then, give or take..
74
@Hunter
68: I didn't misunderstand her at all. Her (first) point was apt, her details were wrong.
71: History suggests you will, but in the interim I'm not going to get upset about your nonsensical rantings.
68: I didn't misunderstand her at all. Her (first) point was apt, her details were wrong.
71: History suggests you will, but in the interim I'm not going to get upset about your nonsensical rantings.
76
@ 66, that's subjective. Granted, I should have said "more mature" rather than a flat "mature," but women who are 22 are not off limits to mature men.
Also, in what world does dating not equal fucking? Not the grown up world.
Also, in what world does dating not equal fucking? Not the grown up world.
78
@76
I was referring to the opposite, actually. I was anticipating a comment that when it comes to casual sex (not dating) a desire to have sex with younger women does not suggest immaturity. And I would tend to agree.
I didn't say women my age are "off limits" I didn't mean an older man can't go for younger women (I wish they'd leave me the fuck alone, but what can you do), or that younger women can't go for older men (if it gets them to leave me alone I'm all for it! As I suggested above). I just meant that the whole premise that a woman who dates an older man is getting a more mature man than someone her own age is usually wrong.
@77
Hunter was worried that I wouldn't see his attempt at a scathing reply if he posted it in last week's comment's section where it belongs.
I was referring to the opposite, actually. I was anticipating a comment that when it comes to casual sex (not dating) a desire to have sex with younger women does not suggest immaturity. And I would tend to agree.
I didn't say women my age are "off limits" I didn't mean an older man can't go for younger women (I wish they'd leave me the fuck alone, but what can you do), or that younger women can't go for older men (if it gets them to leave me alone I'm all for it! As I suggested above). I just meant that the whole premise that a woman who dates an older man is getting a more mature man than someone her own age is usually wrong.
@77
Hunter was worried that I wouldn't see his attempt at a scathing reply if he posted it in last week's comment's section where it belongs.
79
The police would be less than useless to the boyfriend; they'd probably assist in any assault.
I actually only have mild tone disagreements with Mr Savage until he gets to advocating threatening physical violence against someone whom the law will not protect. But at least he's proven that he's completely on a level with heterosexual parents, which appears to have been his great ambition, and I congratulate him for attaining what he has sought.
It is interesting that everybody assumes OCD has been a great parent all along when there is not one word from him about whether he accepts and/or supports his son's sexuality in particular. One can make the point that OCD compliments Mr Savage, but that is only the mildest of general indicators, especially if OCD knew before he wrote in that Mr Savage disliked April-June relationships. I think there's a distinct hint in the way OCD claims it's not a gay objection that he's had more than one gay objection, and likely fairly recently. It's possible perhaps that part of the general problem is that youngsters with parental issues try to date older and the older partner might not see that in time.
Not that that should invalidate his concern, and the beginning of Mr Savage's response is just as strong, but OCD may find his row harder to hoe, in which case I feel sorry for his son. OCD could quite plausibly be the only one to view the BF in a way that happens to be correct, but may have undercut his own credibility.
And yes, the BF ought to expect and welcome concerned inquiry. It does seem typical, though, that straight people would just expect gay people, when threatened with violence, to turn the other cheek. That's obviously worked so well for us in the past. It reminds me of Miss O'Hare in Widow's Peak complaining about how the English had been mistreating the Irish for centuries. I'd advise the BF to take it all with courtesy, and to be ready, if confronted with anything nasty, to voice his own concerns in a polite, non-accusatory manner.
And could we have a hands up from all the cheerleaders for physical violence who would be just as enthusiastically in favour of that bit of advice if the other party were a 31-year-old woman dating a LW's 18-year-old straight son? If anything, that could be the most dangerous combination of the four, at least concerning the younger party's agency if something undesirable happens (in this case, pregnancy).
More...
I actually only have mild tone disagreements with Mr Savage until he gets to advocating threatening physical violence against someone whom the law will not protect. But at least he's proven that he's completely on a level with heterosexual parents, which appears to have been his great ambition, and I congratulate him for attaining what he has sought.
It is interesting that everybody assumes OCD has been a great parent all along when there is not one word from him about whether he accepts and/or supports his son's sexuality in particular. One can make the point that OCD compliments Mr Savage, but that is only the mildest of general indicators, especially if OCD knew before he wrote in that Mr Savage disliked April-June relationships. I think there's a distinct hint in the way OCD claims it's not a gay objection that he's had more than one gay objection, and likely fairly recently. It's possible perhaps that part of the general problem is that youngsters with parental issues try to date older and the older partner might not see that in time.
Not that that should invalidate his concern, and the beginning of Mr Savage's response is just as strong, but OCD may find his row harder to hoe, in which case I feel sorry for his son. OCD could quite plausibly be the only one to view the BF in a way that happens to be correct, but may have undercut his own credibility.
And yes, the BF ought to expect and welcome concerned inquiry. It does seem typical, though, that straight people would just expect gay people, when threatened with violence, to turn the other cheek. That's obviously worked so well for us in the past. It reminds me of Miss O'Hare in Widow's Peak complaining about how the English had been mistreating the Irish for centuries. I'd advise the BF to take it all with courtesy, and to be ready, if confronted with anything nasty, to voice his own concerns in a polite, non-accusatory manner.
And could we have a hands up from all the cheerleaders for physical violence who would be just as enthusiastically in favour of that bit of advice if the other party were a 31-year-old woman dating a LW's 18-year-old straight son? If anything, that could be the most dangerous combination of the four, at least concerning the younger party's agency if something undesirable happens (in this case, pregnancy).
80
Ah, didactic, glibly overconfident youth. Not in the dating pool, but no better reason to call "pass" on most of the early-twenty-somethings.
81
@73: But I don't think any societies view adulthood as starting at 26ish, even though some brain development does continue through the early 20s. (Not a whole lot, and the 30 or 50 year old brain can develop and change, too.)
I'm always inclined to push back against the notion that an 18 year old be free of any legal right of their parents to tell them what to do and how to live so long as they're willing to move out, should logically be allowed to drink (the alcohol laws are based on younger teens not knowing many 21 year olds), can sign binding legal contracts for apartments and loans and such, can join the military, can have any kind of sex they want with other consenting adults, and can start a career as a porn star/weapons importer. But is not considered really an adult for matters of relationships. It's a weird special exemption.
I'm always inclined to push back against the notion that an 18 year old be free of any legal right of their parents to tell them what to do and how to live so long as they're willing to move out, should logically be allowed to drink (the alcohol laws are based on younger teens not knowing many 21 year olds), can sign binding legal contracts for apartments and loans and such, can join the military, can have any kind of sex they want with other consenting adults, and can start a career as a porn star/weapons importer. But is not considered really an adult for matters of relationships. It's a weird special exemption.
83
@81
I agree!
Seems like we've been in some long drawn out process of pushing back 'adulthood' further and further. I know some people that think they don't need to act like adults until they're in their 30s.
I agree!
Seems like we've been in some long drawn out process of pushing back 'adulthood' further and further. I know some people that think they don't need to act like adults until they're in their 30s.
84
it's important that we keep 'laws', and 'reality' separate. honestly, if an 18 year old is not fully adult, and basically independent, they have a problem, and their parents got it wrong.
i actually think our marriage/civil union laws are pretty smart here: you can wed at 16, but need one parent/guardian to sign off on it until you're 20. if you can't agree about it, you can take it to court - if you're under 18, you have to prove that you're responsible, mature, and self-sufficient. if you're over 18 your parents have to prove that you're _not_ mature enough. if you're under 16 and can't wait for some reason, you can apply to the courts for dispensation... all designed to make you really think about it, not necessarily to stop you.
i actually think our marriage/civil union laws are pretty smart here: you can wed at 16, but need one parent/guardian to sign off on it until you're 20. if you can't agree about it, you can take it to court - if you're under 18, you have to prove that you're responsible, mature, and self-sufficient. if you're over 18 your parents have to prove that you're _not_ mature enough. if you're under 16 and can't wait for some reason, you can apply to the courts for dispensation... all designed to make you really think about it, not necessarily to stop you.
85
In my experience most people will become adults only when it is demanded of them. Family circumstances, economic realities, or an insistent partner are the usual culprits.
86
@ 78, good thing I didn't put forth that premise as a universal truth, then, isn't it? "More mature," not "mature." It may be nothing more than patience - even if the man in question isn't really as mature as someone his age should be, he will almost always be more patient.
Also, you did draw a distinct line between dating and fucking. I'm not sure how one is supposed to see that you meant the opposite, but whatever.
Also, you did draw a distinct line between dating and fucking. I'm not sure how one is supposed to see that you meant the opposite, but whatever.
87
@79 vennominion,
I would do whatever it takes to protect my child from a predatory adult 12+ years their senior. Surely you can't believe it takes a Y chromosome for someone to be capable of abusing another.
@83 mydriasis,
30s! I know of people that will never be an adult. Worst case, I know someone that has half sibs by his high school girlfriend! The guy's dad is just a large child, with the same degree of empathy. (yes, the father was cheating on both his wife and son at the same time. I'm not going to put much blame on the 18 YO.)
Peace.
I would do whatever it takes to protect my child from a predatory adult 12+ years their senior. Surely you can't believe it takes a Y chromosome for someone to be capable of abusing another.
@83 mydriasis,
30s! I know of people that will never be an adult. Worst case, I know someone that has half sibs by his high school girlfriend! The guy's dad is just a large child, with the same degree of empathy. (yes, the father was cheating on both his wife and son at the same time. I'm not going to put much blame on the 18 YO.)
Peace.
88
@86
"I said dating, not fucking" is what I said originally?
You thought I meant that dating does not include fucking. (Right?)
What I really meant was that fucking often does not include dating. But that dating typically does include fucking.
I guess 'opposite' isn't the right word, but it seems pretty close?
Anyway, neither of us was arguing a universal truth.
Frankly, I think a 25 year old man of average maturity who wants to date someone my age is likely to be more mature than a 40 year old man who wants to date someone my age. But that's just my opinion/experience/impression.
Not sure where the patient part comes in?
"I said dating, not fucking" is what I said originally?
You thought I meant that dating does not include fucking. (Right?)
What I really meant was that fucking often does not include dating. But that dating typically does include fucking.
I guess 'opposite' isn't the right word, but it seems pretty close?
Anyway, neither of us was arguing a universal truth.
Frankly, I think a 25 year old man of average maturity who wants to date someone my age is likely to be more mature than a 40 year old man who wants to date someone my age. But that's just my opinion/experience/impression.
Not sure where the patient part comes in?
89
Am I the only one uncomfortable with the answer to the first letter? Maybe in Dan's big-city gay world 31 is already jaded and worn out. On the other hand, when I look back to myself at 31 I see a sexually and relationally inexperienced and largely innocent young man who had only ever been with 2 guys in my life. At 31 I didn't have much experience in the usual dating and getting your heart broken that most kids go through in high school, simply because there were no opportunities for me where I grew up. A somewhat mature 18 year old would not have been inappropriate for me at the time - hell, today many if not most 18 year olds have much more experience in sex and relationships than I did at 31. I find the assumption offensive that by default there would have been something wrong with me if I did go out with an 18 year old at the time. And I don't think I was that unusual - inexperienced gay 30 year olds are still common - maybe not in Seattle or New York, but out here in the real world definitely.
There is also a double standard: Consider if an 18 year old marine were to write a letter about shacking up with a 30 year old girl. I am sure Dan, and many others here, would applaud them and wish them well, but even if I am wrong in that, I am pretty sure Dan would not articulate an assumption that by default something must be WRONG with the woman.
There is also a double standard: Consider if an 18 year old marine were to write a letter about shacking up with a 30 year old girl. I am sure Dan, and many others here, would applaud them and wish them well, but even if I am wrong in that, I am pretty sure Dan would not articulate an assumption that by default something must be WRONG with the woman.
90
Mydriasis, 16 year old girls can be just as awkward and un-dateable as the boys are. Try being a poor, overweight girl with zits (PCOS!) and no boobs at a school filled with girls who could afford expensive makeup and dermatologists' visits and implants. None of the boys ever look at you twice. Dan's advice applies equally well to wall flowers as it does to teen boys.
91
@cocky
Really? Personally I'd find such a woman even more dubious. Am I alone in this?
@Stiny
Sorry to hear. I just know in my own experience (and I had all types of friends), even girls who fit that description usually had an equally awkward friend who wanted in her pants. Personally I got more attention from my teachers than classmates. Highschool wasn't fun for me either.
Really? Personally I'd find such a woman even more dubious. Am I alone in this?
@Stiny
Sorry to hear. I just know in my own experience (and I had all types of friends), even girls who fit that description usually had an equally awkward friend who wanted in her pants. Personally I got more attention from my teachers than classmates. Highschool wasn't fun for me either.
92
Mr Ven @79: Probably safe to say that dying of AIDS is more catastrophic than an unwanted pregnancy.
In most circumstances, "Treat him [her] right or you will regret it" should be laughed off as a facetious expression of parental concern. After all, presumably the person has every intention of treating their little darling as good as gold, which renders the "threat" entirely meaningless. This has been the case for daddies inquiring after heterosexual relationships for centuries.
This is what makes @42's response all the more obnoxious. The father is looking for some reassurance that this person is not in fact a predator. 42's response is basically, "Reassurance? No, actually...you get nothing. Nothing from me, certainly, though I dare you to take your concerns to your child and see how well my brainwashing has taken hold."
42 could scarcely have labeled himself Predatory Creep any more effectively if he had carved it on his own forehead with a box cutter.
In most circumstances, "Treat him [her] right or you will regret it" should be laughed off as a facetious expression of parental concern. After all, presumably the person has every intention of treating their little darling as good as gold, which renders the "threat" entirely meaningless. This has been the case for daddies inquiring after heterosexual relationships for centuries.
This is what makes @42's response all the more obnoxious. The father is looking for some reassurance that this person is not in fact a predator. 42's response is basically, "Reassurance? No, actually...you get nothing. Nothing from me, certainly, though I dare you to take your concerns to your child and see how well my brainwashing has taken hold."
42 could scarcely have labeled himself Predatory Creep any more effectively if he had carved it on his own forehead with a box cutter.
93
@89: We've made a sharp distinction between 18, finished with high school, moved out of parents' house, and 18, in high school, financially dependent on parents, ask parents' permission for things as they are a dependent child still in many senses. And even with our hypothetical military person (who is going to be really busy that first year and maybe not having time to manage a new relationship all the way to the shacking up stage) they are within months of achieving meaningful adulthood. Maybe they should be hooking up with other fairly mature but young people. And like 91, I find these hypothetical 30ish women nailing the 17 and 18 year olds in high school inappropriate, and nailing the barely fledged not much more reassuring.
And if you're talking yourself into how your relationship with someone who is either still attending high school and barely 18, or barely out of the nest and just finding himself, is really okay and technically legal, maybe you need to step back. If there are all these inexperienced, 18-equivalent thirty somethings out there, maybe you could date them. Or at least the guys in their early twenties. 31-21 wouldn't raise either of my eyebrows a hair.
And if you're talking yourself into how your relationship with someone who is either still attending high school and barely 18, or barely out of the nest and just finding himself, is really okay and technically legal, maybe you need to step back. If there are all these inexperienced, 18-equivalent thirty somethings out there, maybe you could date them. Or at least the guys in their early twenties. 31-21 wouldn't raise either of my eyebrows a hair.
94
Mr Married - Well, you make one. I shall pay you the compliment of believing that you would attack any 31-year-old partner of any 18-year-old child of yours with equal physical ferocity, though it's unclear whether you'd do this on no prior acquaintance or whether you'd wait for the case to meet Mr Savage's condition.
Given that I said I'd view older F-younger M as potentially the most dangerous combination in my mind, your second sentence seems odd. It just struck me that quite a lot of those cheerleading for straight men threatening gay men with physical violence (with, of course, the almost certain full approval of all authorities) might be inclined rather differently were the older partner a woman. I am prepared to pay Mr Savage the compliment of believing that he would feel equally inclined to advise the same course with an older woman, but suspect that he might not quite be able to bring himself to say it due to an expected backlash.
Given that I said I'd view older F-younger M as potentially the most dangerous combination in my mind, your second sentence seems odd. It just struck me that quite a lot of those cheerleading for straight men threatening gay men with physical violence (with, of course, the almost certain full approval of all authorities) might be inclined rather differently were the older partner a woman. I am prepared to pay Mr Savage the compliment of believing that he would feel equally inclined to advise the same course with an older woman, but suspect that he might not quite be able to bring himself to say it due to an expected backlash.
96
Mr Avast - I was thinking in terms of agency. While my knowledge is limited, the people of my acquaintance who have become HIV+ have had considerably more control over their lives than those who have made others pregnant.
You must forgive me for thinking "or you'll regret it" not to be on a par with a threat of physical violence. I happen to take threats of S-on-G violence quite seriously; so few others do. At the very least, I should hold it incumbent upon a Concerned Parent making such a threat to make it clear that the younger partner telling a family member that the couple had a quarrel won't mean that the CP will be right over with a baseball bat. (Even as a child I disliked baseball; how prescient of me.) While an OP might reasonably expect initial suspicion, excessive hostility right away might just mean that the OP will shun contact, which could be a loss all around.
You must forgive me for thinking "or you'll regret it" not to be on a par with a threat of physical violence. I happen to take threats of S-on-G violence quite seriously; so few others do. At the very least, I should hold it incumbent upon a Concerned Parent making such a threat to make it clear that the younger partner telling a family member that the couple had a quarrel won't mean that the CP will be right over with a baseball bat. (Even as a child I disliked baseball; how prescient of me.) While an OP might reasonably expect initial suspicion, excessive hostility right away might just mean that the OP will shun contact, which could be a loss all around.
97
"I'd view older F-younger M as potentially the most dangerous combination in my mind"
Um... why?
I find it the most suspicious, but not the most dangerous.
Um... why?
I find it the most suspicious, but not the most dangerous.
98
@94 vennominion,Â
In my experience, including as a 21 YO having a glorious sexual experience with a 32 YO woman, and as a 17 YO almost being raped by a 45ish male, the response would be determined by the individual. Â Mydriasis's #91b entry made me wince because of my own anti-predator instincts honed by living as a younger (than 17) child being stalked by an authority figure in my own home. Â Unfortunately I understand the damage a predatory adult can inflict first hand, and at the same time that a loving and caring partner with the same age difference to be a blessing. Â Like most human behavior, mine isn't that simple.
In my own case, my knee-jerk response is likely based in the kind of defense that I wished for from my parents. Â It includes an extreme response only as a worst case scenario; I would go to jail to protect my child if and only if that was required. Â I would also welcome a new partner into the family if that were truly what was best for my child in my determination.
Sorry if you equate my response as thuggish, and even supportive of gay bashing, but it comes down to protecting my child. Â
Peace.
In my experience, including as a 21 YO having a glorious sexual experience with a 32 YO woman, and as a 17 YO almost being raped by a 45ish male, the response would be determined by the individual. Â Mydriasis's #91b entry made me wince because of my own anti-predator instincts honed by living as a younger (than 17) child being stalked by an authority figure in my own home. Â Unfortunately I understand the damage a predatory adult can inflict first hand, and at the same time that a loving and caring partner with the same age difference to be a blessing. Â Like most human behavior, mine isn't that simple.
In my own case, my knee-jerk response is likely based in the kind of defense that I wished for from my parents. Â It includes an extreme response only as a worst case scenario; I would go to jail to protect my child if and only if that was required. Â I would also welcome a new partner into the family if that were truly what was best for my child in my determination.
Sorry if you equate my response as thuggish, and even supportive of gay bashing, but it comes down to protecting my child. Â
Peace.
99
My advice to WASTED is the same as Dan's. I'm 20 and haven't had a boyfriend or had sex yet and I don't mind it that much. Keep busy with school or volunteer work. Find some hobbies that will distinguish you and make you well rounded. In two or three years your chances will also be better of finding someone simply because of things like mobility and if you move to a bigger city, etc.
Otherwise I'm in the same boat plus 4 years, I think I'm mostly single because I 'd rather stay at home and am easily turned off by guys for seeming like assholes or vapid queens. College can also be a great social experience- I've heard- but only if you are proactive about it.
So live your life and don't wait for a boyfriend but rather build yourself into someone who's caring and smart. One of my past gay friends has a boyfriend (one of many past others) but lives back in his small hometown, jobless,and a college drop out. Don't be him. But don't be like me and just be a homebody with too many hobbies who doesn't like to socialize and wonders when the boyfriend is gonna show up. I also recommend your local GSA or in college bglad which is not the best place to start a manhunt but a start nonetheless.
Otherwise I'm in the same boat plus 4 years, I think I'm mostly single because I 'd rather stay at home and am easily turned off by guys for seeming like assholes or vapid queens. College can also be a great social experience- I've heard- but only if you are proactive about it.
So live your life and don't wait for a boyfriend but rather build yourself into someone who's caring and smart. One of my past gay friends has a boyfriend (one of many past others) but lives back in his small hometown, jobless,and a college drop out. Don't be him. But don't be like me and just be a homebody with too many hobbies who doesn't like to socialize and wonders when the boyfriend is gonna show up. I also recommend your local GSA or in college bglad which is not the best place to start a manhunt but a start nonetheless.
100
@17 mydriasis and @23 Linden: I agree with both of you on not wanting to date someone who is almost old enough to be a parent.
At 47 I have entered a rather bizarre situation: men in my age bracket seem to be seeking women in their late 20s and 30s. Men 15 to 20+ years older seem to seek me out! I'm just not interested.
Maybe it's because I enjoy being independent so much more, I don't know. But I'd prefer to stay single than face those dating odds.
Three for three! Kudos, Dan, of a direct bullseye!
AWA: I'm with Dan: Speak up!!
At 47 I have entered a rather bizarre situation: men in my age bracket seem to be seeking women in their late 20s and 30s. Men 15 to 20+ years older seem to seek me out! I'm just not interested.
Maybe it's because I enjoy being independent so much more, I don't know. But I'd prefer to stay single than face those dating odds.
Three for three! Kudos, Dan, of a direct bullseye!
AWA: I'm with Dan: Speak up!!
101
Have I missed it, or has nobody noted in response to the people wondering why young women might be attracted to "older men" and why older men might be attracted to "young women" that it is often not a case of general preference but rather a specific attraction to THIS older man or younger woman?
That is how I have always experienced things, anyways. Maybe I am wrong, but I think that most of the time the relative age of the parties to a relationship is somewhere between "one of several factors influencing compatibility" and "irrelevant". When I was eighteen and twenty, most of my close friends were ten to twenty years older. I wasn't dating (or having sex with) any of them, but I loved spending time with them because we had a lot in common and many shared interests, and a lot of fun. I don't think there was anything wrong with any of us. One of the saddest things about America is the way people get segregated into age cohorts and can't get out.
That is how I have always experienced things, anyways. Maybe I am wrong, but I think that most of the time the relative age of the parties to a relationship is somewhere between "one of several factors influencing compatibility" and "irrelevant". When I was eighteen and twenty, most of my close friends were ten to twenty years older. I wasn't dating (or having sex with) any of them, but I loved spending time with them because we had a lot in common and many shared interests, and a lot of fun. I don't think there was anything wrong with any of us. One of the saddest things about America is the way people get segregated into age cohorts and can't get out.
102
@101: "...we had a lot in common and many shared interests, and a lot of fun. I don't think there was anything wrong with any of us. One of the saddest things about America is the way people get segregated into age cohorts and can't get out."
Yes!
It is strange to me how many people here will participate in and applaud all kinds of unusual sleeping around arrangements and kinks and then turn around and be judgmental regarding completely innocuous friendships and relationships between adults (and many 18-year olds are adults) with 12 years difference in age.
Yes!
It is strange to me how many people here will participate in and applaud all kinds of unusual sleeping around arrangements and kinks and then turn around and be judgmental regarding completely innocuous friendships and relationships between adults (and many 18-year olds are adults) with 12 years difference in age.
103
@42, I broadly agree with your response. Dan's suggestion to the father regarding the conversation to have was inappropriate. The suggested conversation, involving threats and harassment, would be borderline illegal. Hopefully the suggestion was only facetious.
104
102, 103- cocky--
There are 2 issues with relationships between the chronologically disparate, one easily defensible, one not. The first is that it strikes most of us as icky. Since most of us are attracted to partners who are roughly the same age we are, there's an automatic ick factor when we learn of someone much older being a little too attracted to someone much younger. Like so many ick factors that are based only on what one personally finds appealing without acknowledging that not everyone feels the same, this one really can't be defended. It smacks of the old "I think same sex sex is disgusting and not something I would participate in; therefore gay people must be hunted down and killed" mentality. Definitely not good.
But then there's the power element. A 30 year old in a relationship with a 60 year old has a good shot at being an equal partner and not being taken advantage of. That's not likely the case with an 18 year old in a relationship with a 30 year old. I don't have a problem with discouraging that latter age-disparate relationship because it takes the form of protecting the younger, less powerful participant.
As for threats-- When I read Dan's response, I didn't take it as a literal threat. I saw it more in the way people say "if he comes late one more time, I'll wring his neck," just a way of saying "I'll be very angry," not something to be taken as a literal death threat. But even if you take Dan's response a little more literally, even if you think he's saying that he will beat the guy to a bloody pulp, note that the threat is still contingent on "if you hurt my gay kid." If this man doesn't hurt the 18 year old young man, he's safe. He's in control. All he has to do is act honorably, and he's fine. The father isn't asking much, and he isn't taking autonomy away from his son. The son still gets to choose his own relationships, but from a position of safety.
More...
There are 2 issues with relationships between the chronologically disparate, one easily defensible, one not. The first is that it strikes most of us as icky. Since most of us are attracted to partners who are roughly the same age we are, there's an automatic ick factor when we learn of someone much older being a little too attracted to someone much younger. Like so many ick factors that are based only on what one personally finds appealing without acknowledging that not everyone feels the same, this one really can't be defended. It smacks of the old "I think same sex sex is disgusting and not something I would participate in; therefore gay people must be hunted down and killed" mentality. Definitely not good.
But then there's the power element. A 30 year old in a relationship with a 60 year old has a good shot at being an equal partner and not being taken advantage of. That's not likely the case with an 18 year old in a relationship with a 30 year old. I don't have a problem with discouraging that latter age-disparate relationship because it takes the form of protecting the younger, less powerful participant.
As for threats-- When I read Dan's response, I didn't take it as a literal threat. I saw it more in the way people say "if he comes late one more time, I'll wring his neck," just a way of saying "I'll be very angry," not something to be taken as a literal death threat. But even if you take Dan's response a little more literally, even if you think he's saying that he will beat the guy to a bloody pulp, note that the threat is still contingent on "if you hurt my gay kid." If this man doesn't hurt the 18 year old young man, he's safe. He's in control. All he has to do is act honorably, and he's fine. The father isn't asking much, and he isn't taking autonomy away from his son. The son still gets to choose his own relationships, but from a position of safety.
105
@104, no matter what the contingency, the promised remedy of violence is illegal no matter how you cut it. I think the language Dan suggested is meant to intimidate and frighten and is therefore inappropriate and also possibly illegal harassment. (And I think Dan meant this intimidation to destroy the relationship no matter what its merits may be, due to his own ick response.) Even if not illegal, I think his kind of talk is simply wrong. What good can possibly come of it?
What exactly is this "power" imbalance between a 30 year old and an 18 year old? If life is such a game of chess to you that your relationship succeeds or fails based on a "balance of powers", then frankly, my dear, you have problems.
What exactly is this "power" imbalance between a 30 year old and an 18 year old? If life is such a game of chess to you that your relationship succeeds or fails based on a "balance of powers", then frankly, my dear, you have problems.
107
Mr Married - A last resort is a last resort. I should hope I'd commend you resorting to such a course of action were it truly necessary.
I didn't take your response as necessarily thuggish; you just didn't clarify. One could have argued equally well either way from your open-ended original statement.
Thank you for being more exact. And I note with interest that you are still the only one making your stand gender-neutral. I give you a good many points for that.
I didn't take your response as necessarily thuggish; you just didn't clarify. One could have argued equally well either way from your open-ended original statement.
Thank you for being more exact. And I note with interest that you are still the only one making your stand gender-neutral. I give you a good many points for that.
108
Mr Balls - Did you see the other thread on this? I really don't think Mr Savage intends to come across the way you think he does. This puts him in a difficult position, and he takes a stance that makes sense for him.
109
I'm 41. My last girlfriend is 40. But besides her, in the last 5 years, most of my hook-ups have been with women in their mid to late 20's. It's not my preference, it's just the way it is. I've wondered why and I think the reason may be that because I'm older and out of their circle there is an ease to it. Also, maybe because I don't sit around playing X-Box and taking bog hits still, at 27.
I'm also a father to a teen girl. And everyone who says that it's so wrong to make it clear, one way or another, that "I don't know what my actions might be if you fuck over my kid" probably isn't a parent, or lives in a fantasy world. What I took away from what Dan wrote is that after a nice meet and greet, if the vibe is weird or red-flags, it is appropriate to make it clear you mean business. I would never say to someone "Hey, you're dating my kid, I'll kill your ass if you mess it up" and I seriously doubt Dan would either.
I'm also a father to a teen girl. And everyone who says that it's so wrong to make it clear, one way or another, that "I don't know what my actions might be if you fuck over my kid" probably isn't a parent, or lives in a fantasy world. What I took away from what Dan wrote is that after a nice meet and greet, if the vibe is weird or red-flags, it is appropriate to make it clear you mean business. I would never say to someone "Hey, you're dating my kid, I'll kill your ass if you mess it up" and I seriously doubt Dan would either.
110
Dan, your response to all three letters, especially the first one, indicate why you are the best damn advice columnist in the business. For a relatively young man, you are very wise.
111
Mr Rex - What about Mr Savage's suggestion do you think indicates that the meeting would even begin as "a nice meet and greet"? Your scenario is perfectly reasonable. From what Mr Savage wrote, I envisaged the encounter beginning with a brutal cross-examination that would make Horace Rumpole proud.
Also, do you truly see no difference between threatening a straight man with possible violence and making the same threat to a gay man, who is far more likely to take even a highly conditional threat as seriously indicative of imminent harm?
Also, do you truly see no difference between threatening a straight man with possible violence and making the same threat to a gay man, who is far more likely to take even a highly conditional threat as seriously indicative of imminent harm?
112
view what some mormons think of homosexuals, here is a sample
"I confess that I cannot think of a single reason -- not one -- why immoralists would expect us to trust them with our children."
Regards,
Pahoran
see more anti-gay spewings at mormondialogue.org, which has a close connection to the Maxwell Institute.
"I confess that I cannot think of a single reason -- not one -- why immoralists would expect us to trust them with our children."
Regards,
Pahoran
see more anti-gay spewings at mormondialogue.org, which has a close connection to the Maxwell Institute.
113
@vennom,
Like Married and Rex, I take Dan's response as a threat not of straight on gay violence, but as an expression of what any parent (gay or straight) of a high school student (even if they just had their 18th birthday and passed their American Lit test last week with a solid B) feels when confronting the person more than a decade older who has decided his or her child (I'm a mom) looks like either a hot roll in the hay, or a special soul mate who gets this person in a way that people his or her own age just don't. That the red flags and alarms are going off. Dan is trying to draw the awkward line of a parent with a quasi-adult who is barely legal and not out on their own. There are times to let go; there are times to play the person with more judgment and experience. These move as the child grows older and leave home. If still a minor, or barely 18, and at home and in HS, it makes sense to have some involvement in their decisions.
This feeling "I will mess you up if you hurt my child" is fairly widespread when we see how incredibly vulnerable our child becomes in the face of first love. It doesn't mean literal violence, especially if that first love is the same age. When it is someone much older, whom my first guess would lump with Dan's "romantic partners my own age see through my BS", the suspicion that their child is about to be very hurt by someone old enough to know better, but uncaring, is far stronger.
I recall from the last thread the point that an older person who really really wants a high school student to agree to have sex with him (or her) is hardly in an objective position to evaluate how much judgment the 17 or 18 year old is showing. "This person wants to have sex with me! They're brilliant!"
Like Married and Rex, I take Dan's response as a threat not of straight on gay violence, but as an expression of what any parent (gay or straight) of a high school student (even if they just had their 18th birthday and passed their American Lit test last week with a solid B) feels when confronting the person more than a decade older who has decided his or her child (I'm a mom) looks like either a hot roll in the hay, or a special soul mate who gets this person in a way that people his or her own age just don't. That the red flags and alarms are going off. Dan is trying to draw the awkward line of a parent with a quasi-adult who is barely legal and not out on their own. There are times to let go; there are times to play the person with more judgment and experience. These move as the child grows older and leave home. If still a minor, or barely 18, and at home and in HS, it makes sense to have some involvement in their decisions.
This feeling "I will mess you up if you hurt my child" is fairly widespread when we see how incredibly vulnerable our child becomes in the face of first love. It doesn't mean literal violence, especially if that first love is the same age. When it is someone much older, whom my first guess would lump with Dan's "romantic partners my own age see through my BS", the suspicion that their child is about to be very hurt by someone old enough to know better, but uncaring, is far stronger.
I recall from the last thread the point that an older person who really really wants a high school student to agree to have sex with him (or her) is hardly in an objective position to evaluate how much judgment the 17 or 18 year old is showing. "This person wants to have sex with me! They're brilliant!"
114
view what some mormons think of homosexuals, here is a sample
"I confess that I cannot think of a single reason -- not one -- why immoralists would expect us to trust them with our children."
Regards,
Pahoran
"I think homosexuality as a chosen lifestyle is wrong, and I don't think it should be considered marriage."
Jeff K
see more anti-gay spewings at mormondialogue.org, which has a close connection to the Maxwell Institute.
"I confess that I cannot think of a single reason -- not one -- why immoralists would expect us to trust them with our children."
Regards,
Pahoran
"I think homosexuality as a chosen lifestyle is wrong, and I don't think it should be considered marriage."
Jeff K
see more anti-gay spewings at mormondialogue.org, which has a close connection to the Maxwell Institute.
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@56: Certainly there are plenty of older men that are just creeps, but if OCD trusts his son and believes him to be of sound judgment, then there's no reason to be concerned. Although I am quite aware my older man is exceptional, I can't imagine a secure, well adjusted younger person could be tricked into staying in a situation where the partner was predatory, older or not. Not all young people are as stupid as people think.
Also, I never said he was on my level, we're just comfortable with the extreme asymmetry between us. I may one day outgrow him, but it certainly won't be because he's a loser, as you seem to imply. I'm sorry that that was your experience, but there do exist genuinely fascinating older men who offer more than extravagant outings and sexual mentorship. If OCD, or any parent, believes that they have properly raised their kid, and trusts that they are a good judge of character and have a head on their shoulders, there's no reason not to believe that the older man the kid's dating isn't one of those exceptional individuals.
Also, I never said he was on my level, we're just comfortable with the extreme asymmetry between us. I may one day outgrow him, but it certainly won't be because he's a loser, as you seem to imply. I'm sorry that that was your experience, but there do exist genuinely fascinating older men who offer more than extravagant outings and sexual mentorship. If OCD, or any parent, believes that they have properly raised their kid, and trusts that they are a good judge of character and have a head on their shoulders, there's no reason not to believe that the older man the kid's dating isn't one of those exceptional individuals.
117
Ms Crinoline - I don't know how it works for women, but in an M/M 18/31 the younger partner might likely have more power outside the relationship that might counteract some of the dynamic. Beauty effortlessly maintained trumps beauty carefully preserved (with thanks to Mr Keenan). Granted, having power and knowing how to use it are different things. I'm not disagreeing so much as throwing in a possible modifier.
As for your conclusion, it might depend on a definition of "hurt". We can probably all agree that there are actions of direct harm that nobody would countenance and that there would be near-universal accord that some negative response would be quite in order. And I'll assume your sweeping phrase does not extend to the sort of hurt feelings over a petty quarrel that occur in every relationship without the necessity of dishonourable conduct. I see the grey area in the "my bad" conduct that does not reach POSdom. It seems fair to hold the older partner to a higher standard. But what relationship misdemeanors would or wouldn't justify parental violence, and which would be a different matter if the partners were contemporaries?
As for your conclusion, it might depend on a definition of "hurt". We can probably all agree that there are actions of direct harm that nobody would countenance and that there would be near-universal accord that some negative response would be quite in order. And I'll assume your sweeping phrase does not extend to the sort of hurt feelings over a petty quarrel that occur in every relationship without the necessity of dishonourable conduct. I see the grey area in the "my bad" conduct that does not reach POSdom. It seems fair to hold the older partner to a higher standard. But what relationship misdemeanors would or wouldn't justify parental violence, and which would be a different matter if the partners were contemporaries?
118
No way in hell to make a sleep-over invite from a 50-year-old to a 13-year-old wholesome and innocent. But if the adults say and do nothing (chickenshits), it will seem normal.
Here's a thought--don't go to sis timidly. Go in with the courage of your convictions, and be prepared to yell, if that's her M.O. She sounds like a bully. Poor kid.
Here's a thought--don't go to sis timidly. Go in with the courage of your convictions, and be prepared to yell, if that's her M.O. She sounds like a bully. Poor kid.
119
I'm old enough to be your straight dad, Dan, but I wish I'd grown up with you as my gay dad. Great advice.
120
Vennom-san, and Cocky-san,
A truly heartfelt assurance of kindness and generosity of spirit towards our child would be the best way by far of convincing a parent that it would be OK to trust an older suitor. And if you don't get what that means, you flunk. Each and every time we ask.
Hope for a better future is what we're looking for.
Peace.
A truly heartfelt assurance of kindness and generosity of spirit towards our child would be the best way by far of convincing a parent that it would be OK to trust an older suitor. And if you don't get what that means, you flunk. Each and every time we ask.
Hope for a better future is what we're looking for.
Peace.
121
Ms IPJ - I am making a tone point. How will such a message be heard? A former recipient of S/G violence is far more likely to take an expression of reasonable emotion to be an imminent threat.
I'll give OCD a large slice of benefit of a shrinking quantity of doubt and assume that the message he wants his son's BF to get is, "I hope to welcome my son's partner in time, but I'm keeping close watch on this higher-risk relationship." If that is what he wants the BF to hear, he does not want it to come across as, "Very well, take your pound of flesh, but do not draw one drop of blood." Perhaps most of the parents here would not view such an outcome as a bad thing, which I suppose is fair enough, but one might as well assume good faith.
I'll give OCD a large slice of benefit of a shrinking quantity of doubt and assume that the message he wants his son's BF to get is, "I hope to welcome my son's partner in time, but I'm keeping close watch on this higher-risk relationship." If that is what he wants the BF to hear, he does not want it to come across as, "Very well, take your pound of flesh, but do not draw one drop of blood." Perhaps most of the parents here would not view such an outcome as a bad thing, which I suppose is fair enough, but one might as well assume good faith.
122
Mr Married - Please do not presume all parents of young gays to be in your boat. Would that they were.
And please don't lump me with the villains.
And please don't lump me with the villains.
123
There simply does not exist an inherent power balance based solely on age. The perception of such is in my opinion probably largely based on intensely-maintained age stratification in schooling. Social hierarchy is far more complicated than that. Moreover at the risk of being glib, just because YOU are bothered by the idea of a particular power imbalance in an erotic relationship doesn't mean that such an imbalance is wrong. There is a reason that people consistently get hot for their teachers and bosses.
That being said, if a particular person is turned off by older men, great. There are probably other people who are specifically turned on by older men - and a third group who honest to god just don't care how old a particular man is, as long as he is legal.
That being said, if a particular person is turned off by older men, great. There are probably other people who are specifically turned on by older men - and a third group who honest to god just don't care how old a particular man is, as long as he is legal.
124
@Thisbe
I have friends in their 30s and less close work-friendships with people in their 40s and 50s. I'll admit it does look inappropriate when I hang out with a guy that's married and has children (even though it's 100% platonic) and that's unfortunate. But I do love having some older friends (and family) that I'm close to who help give me advice and perspective. Definitely nothing to be discouraged.
But I would never date anyone that much older than myself. Different kinds of relationships mean different kinds of qualities become important. I hope I didn't give the impression that I think friendships need to be age-restricted just because I choose to set my own cutoffs for dating.
I have friends in their 30s and less close work-friendships with people in their 40s and 50s. I'll admit it does look inappropriate when I hang out with a guy that's married and has children (even though it's 100% platonic) and that's unfortunate. But I do love having some older friends (and family) that I'm close to who help give me advice and perspective. Definitely nothing to be discouraged.
But I would never date anyone that much older than myself. Different kinds of relationships mean different kinds of qualities become important. I hope I didn't give the impression that I think friendships need to be age-restricted just because I choose to set my own cutoffs for dating.
125
@79 Hell no, it wouldn't be any different! If I found out a 31 yo woman was dating my 19 yo son, I would definitely have a talk with her, and let her know.
Also, I think OCD mentions that his wife (and he) are actually going to the other extreme to show their support.
Also, I think OCD mentions that his wife (and he) are actually going to the other extreme to show their support.
126
@ 89, I would wonder what the hell is wrong with a 31 year old woman who wants to shack up with an 18 year old boy! No, it doesn't matter the gender/sexuality. It is a red flag about the 31 year old.
127
@cockyballsup -"What exactly is this "power" imbalance between a 30 year old and an 18 year old? If life is such a game of chess to you that your relationship succeeds or fails based on a "balance of powers", then frankly, my dear, you have problems."
If you don't understand the power indifference between an 18 year old and a 31 year old, frankly my dear, you are incredibly naive.
If you don't understand the power indifference between an 18 year old and a 31 year old, frankly my dear, you are incredibly naive.
128
Ms Betsy - "Let her know" does not exactly equate "threaten with violence" the last time I checked. But thank you for bringing the number in that column up to two, more or less.
According to OCD, Mrs OCD thinks they can't object if they want to be supportive. Mr Savage correctly dismantles that error. OCD himself just seems to be looking for any reasonable excuse on which to hang an anti-gay act.
I'd call it a pink flag rather than a red one, but can agree to disagree on the point.
According to OCD, Mrs OCD thinks they can't object if they want to be supportive. Mr Savage correctly dismantles that error. OCD himself just seems to be looking for any reasonable excuse on which to hang an anti-gay act.
I'd call it a pink flag rather than a red one, but can agree to disagree on the point.
129
When I was in my mid 20s and divorced with two preschoolers, I got sick of dating guys my age faster than a virgin orgasms. For one I decided to try an older guy on the suggestion of my friends (I had been complaining about never being satisfied during sex) and banging 20something guys after that was just... torture. Plus they wanted to go clubbing and were into dressing the part and being seen in the right places with girls who wore the perfect clothing and body lotions and perfumes and really I just wanted to make us a great roast chicken for dinner, split a bottle of wine, watch some tv, fuck and go to sleep. The 20 something guys were all either trying to be on Jersey Shore or Dane Cook's best friend. Blah. The 40 something guys didn't mind I had a few stretch marks and that sometimes I had to get out of bed in the middle of the night to soothe a toddler with nightmares or that sometimes an ear infection would pop up meaning no weekend nookie time. The early to mid 20something guys were largely living at home partying and interested in hot sex with hot girls. Keyword there: girls.
I liked being with guys who didn't blink my number was in the double digits. Guys who had been around and seen some shit and were difficult to shock. I also yeah, liked guys who were settled in their career and not still in the mindset that they were going to graduate from engineering school or business school and guy a job making six figures and a girlfriend to match immediately.
I just really never found guys under 35 mature enough to bother with. Oh. And they pretty much universally sucked in bed. Mister is almost 3 years younger than me but spent a lot of years not being too proud to seek out sexual instruction from women far older than I. So he has mad skillz.
More...
I liked being with guys who didn't blink my number was in the double digits. Guys who had been around and seen some shit and were difficult to shock. I also yeah, liked guys who were settled in their career and not still in the mindset that they were going to graduate from engineering school or business school and guy a job making six figures and a girlfriend to match immediately.
I just really never found guys under 35 mature enough to bother with. Oh. And they pretty much universally sucked in bed. Mister is almost 3 years younger than me but spent a lot of years not being too proud to seek out sexual instruction from women far older than I. So he has mad skillz.
130
@101: Definitely. Over the years I've been in relationships with women who ranged from 25 years older to 14 years younger. It was all about the individual.
The 14 years younger was a mistake, but because of the individual, not necessarily the age. She's now in her 30s, and I hear she still has the emotional age of many early-twenty-somethings. Which is to say, she's still not emotionally potty-trained.
The 25 years older was definitely not a mistake. She told me it was too bad she would geriatric by the time I was in my 40s and 50s and really starting to get cool. It blew my twenty-something mind at the time, which had trouble getting itself around the idea that middle-aged guys might actually be desirable, let alone *more* desirable.
The 14 years younger was a mistake, but because of the individual, not necessarily the age. She's now in her 30s, and I hear she still has the emotional age of many early-twenty-somethings. Which is to say, she's still not emotionally potty-trained.
The 25 years older was definitely not a mistake. She told me it was too bad she would geriatric by the time I was in my 40s and 50s and really starting to get cool. It blew my twenty-something mind at the time, which had trouble getting itself around the idea that middle-aged guys might actually be desirable, let alone *more* desirable.
131
Mr Married - You are one of the better souls here; it would grieve me to quarrel with you. I am not giving personal details in this thread on point of principle, but I do assure you that, if you knew my history, you wouldn't disapprove of me. I can accept that you are one of the (relatively few, in my experience, though I accept that that of others will differ) good parents out there.
132
@131 vennom-san,
Thank you for your praise. Thank you for sticking to your guns and providing us with your side of the story. There is a French term I've heard that I believe translates to being an "Idiot by/of exclusion", and the holes I need to fill in my knowledge are vast. It has been therapeutic to take part in this wonderful community, and be cheered when I am down and to cheer others in need.
Peace.
Thank you for your praise. Thank you for sticking to your guns and providing us with your side of the story. There is a French term I've heard that I believe translates to being an "Idiot by/of exclusion", and the holes I need to fill in my knowledge are vast. It has been therapeutic to take part in this wonderful community, and be cheered when I am down and to cheer others in need.
Peace.
133
If you're old enough to rent a car, leave alone anyone who isn't old enough to legally drink.
If you both are over 21, it's not creepy.
If you both are over 21, it's not creepy.
135
Good advice all around, Dan is scary good at this.
But for OCD, I did flash on a movie while reading the letter: Bull Durham, with Susan Sarandon playing a 31-ish baseball groupie/mentor to a [30 year old Tim Robbins playing an] 18-19 year old ballplayer. FWIW.
But for OCD, I did flash on a movie while reading the letter: Bull Durham, with Susan Sarandon playing a 31-ish baseball groupie/mentor to a [30 year old Tim Robbins playing an] 18-19 year old ballplayer. FWIW.
136
@25 Not foolproof. I am in my forties and have a hard time taking the idea seriously that guys aren't old enough for me after a couple of combat tours. I know someone 20 years younger who has done 2 in Iraq and 2 in 'Stan. It isn't like doing some high school kid.
18 in HS EW EW EW EW!
18 in HS EW EW EW EW!
137
Re OCD:
No its not dad's place to ask the HIV status of anyone except the person he's fucking.
All the rest spot on Dan!
No its not dad's place to ask the HIV status of anyone except the person he's fucking.
All the rest spot on Dan!
138
@42: Congratulations! You've just made enemies out of your boyfriend's parents, apparently because your boyfriend's relationship with them isn't of any concern to you. And you've established yourself as exactly the kind of selfish shit who shouldn't be dating 18 year olds.
But perhaps this is all a part of your plan to isolate the kid from his parents to make him more dependent on you? Fucking predator.
But perhaps this is all a part of your plan to isolate the kid from his parents to make him more dependent on you? Fucking predator.
139
@79: I think there's a distinct hint in the way OCD claims it's not a gay objection that he's had more than one gay objection
You have no basis whatsoever to accuse the father of homophobia. The man is rightfully concerned about his 18 year old gay son. Perhaps that's not something you can understand without being a parent yourself.
And could we have a hands up from all the cheerleaders for physical violence who would be just as enthusiastically in favour of that bit of advice if the other party were a 31-year-old woman dating a LW's 18-year-old straight son
I'll be the first to admit I have a double standard here, because I don't believe the age difference has the same potential for exploitation when the older party is female and the younger party is male. Men and women tend to come at relationships from different angles, in case you haven't noticed, and I feel no moral obligation to pretend otherwise.
As for violence, if I believed it was the only way to save my kid from a traumatic or devastating experience, I don't think I'd have any choice but to use it. Again, maybe you'd have to be a father to understand that.
On a couple of occasions, my wife's little brother threatened to kill me if I ever harmed his sister. I thought it was a little over the top, but I could certainly understand his feeling of protectiveness.
You have no basis whatsoever to accuse the father of homophobia. The man is rightfully concerned about his 18 year old gay son. Perhaps that's not something you can understand without being a parent yourself.
And could we have a hands up from all the cheerleaders for physical violence who would be just as enthusiastically in favour of that bit of advice if the other party were a 31-year-old woman dating a LW's 18-year-old straight son
I'll be the first to admit I have a double standard here, because I don't believe the age difference has the same potential for exploitation when the older party is female and the younger party is male. Men and women tend to come at relationships from different angles, in case you haven't noticed, and I feel no moral obligation to pretend otherwise.
As for violence, if I believed it was the only way to save my kid from a traumatic or devastating experience, I don't think I'd have any choice but to use it. Again, maybe you'd have to be a father to understand that.
On a couple of occasions, my wife's little brother threatened to kill me if I ever harmed his sister. I thought it was a little over the top, but I could certainly understand his feeling of protectiveness.
140
@139 Sean,
It's pretty amazing to witness, but I've seen someone threaten to hurt the groom if anything bad happens to the new wife, as well (Mexican national). The fact that it was the bridal party doing the verbal assault made it "comical". Of course 20+ years on, no problem.
Peace.
It's pretty amazing to witness, but I've seen someone threaten to hurt the groom if anything bad happens to the new wife, as well (Mexican national). The fact that it was the bridal party doing the verbal assault made it "comical". Of course 20+ years on, no problem.
Peace.
141
To see just how inappropriate Dan's response to the father in the first letter is, imagine that the son were straight and the father told the older woman that "he would tear her female limb from female limb if she hurt his straight kid".
Such a jerk could rightly be arrested and would deserve it. What makes this language okay if the target is gay?
Such a jerk could rightly be arrested and would deserve it. What makes this language okay if the target is gay?
142
@141 -- a 20 year older female seducing my 18 year old son -- There would doubtless be a lot of issues of power and skill at manipulating relationships.
Tear her limb from limb? Not. Want to do so? Sure.
Tear her limb from limb? Not. Want to do so? Sure.
143
@141, since when is 31-18 = 20?
And there is a difference between wanting to tear her limb from limb and actually threatening her with violence after giving her the third degree with intrusive questions about her birth control methods, as Dan advises.
By the way, why the old sexist assumption that it is always HER seducing HIM?
And there is a difference between wanting to tear her limb from limb and actually threatening her with violence after giving her the third degree with intrusive questions about her birth control methods, as Dan advises.
By the way, why the old sexist assumption that it is always HER seducing HIM?
145
@143 cocky,
Why the old sexist assumption? Experience.
Go check out one of the websites specializing in teacher:student scandals (as a model of that kind of age dynamic) and almost always the older woman is the initiator (Why would I know about something like hottforteacher.com? I was bored, and followed a news link.)
Peace.
Why the old sexist assumption? Experience.
Go check out one of the websites specializing in teacher:student scandals (as a model of that kind of age dynamic) and almost always the older woman is the initiator (Why would I know about something like hottforteacher.com? I was bored, and followed a news link.)
Peace.
146
@cocky
"To see just how inappropriate Dan's response to the father in the first letter is, imagine that the son were straight and the father told the older woman that "he would tear her female limb from female limb if she hurt his straight kid".
Such a jerk could rightly be arrested and would deserve it. What makes this language okay if the target is gay?"
The issue there is clearly gender, not sexuality. Come on. If you want to go ahead and argue some sort of obnoxious "men's right's" angle, be my guest. But that's the only complaint you've got here.
To clarify:
(Physically) threatening an older man dating your son? Socially acceptable.
" " an older man dating your daughter? Also socially acceptable. (the comparison you should have made if sexuality and not gender was the issues)
" " an older woman dating your son? Not kosher.
" " an older woman dating your daughter? Also not kosher.
"To see just how inappropriate Dan's response to the father in the first letter is, imagine that the son were straight and the father told the older woman that "he would tear her female limb from female limb if she hurt his straight kid".
Such a jerk could rightly be arrested and would deserve it. What makes this language okay if the target is gay?"
The issue there is clearly gender, not sexuality. Come on. If you want to go ahead and argue some sort of obnoxious "men's right's" angle, be my guest. But that's the only complaint you've got here.
To clarify:
(Physically) threatening an older man dating your son? Socially acceptable.
" " an older man dating your daughter? Also socially acceptable. (the comparison you should have made if sexuality and not gender was the issues)
" " an older woman dating your son? Not kosher.
" " an older woman dating your daughter? Also not kosher.
147
Dear Venominom (Mr?)
I appreciate your response, and I would like to clarify.
I do not condone violence so I would not threaten violence, however, I would let the woman know that I have major red flags and will be watching carefully, which is what I think the crux of Dan's answer was.
Incidentally, my son (at the age 13!) had a young female teacher who paid way too much attention to him - I paid close attention to her, but fortunately it never got to the talking stage.
Not sure if you have children or not, but for me, being a parent brings out a side of me that I never would have imagined. I would fight for my son(s) if it ever became necessary. (not that I can imagine a time that it would)
I appreciate your response, and I would like to clarify.
I do not condone violence so I would not threaten violence, however, I would let the woman know that I have major red flags and will be watching carefully, which is what I think the crux of Dan's answer was.
Incidentally, my son (at the age 13!) had a young female teacher who paid way too much attention to him - I paid close attention to her, but fortunately it never got to the talking stage.
Not sure if you have children or not, but for me, being a parent brings out a side of me that I never would have imagined. I would fight for my son(s) if it ever became necessary. (not that I can imagine a time that it would)
148
@mydriasis: "(Physically) threatening an older man dating your son? Socially acceptable.
" " an older woman dating your son? Not kosher."
I vehemently disagree with the distinction you are making, and so, I believe, does the law in many jurisdictions.
" " an older woman dating your son? Not kosher."
I vehemently disagree with the distinction you are making, and so, I believe, does the law in many jurisdictions.
149
@mydriasis, could you clarify further why you think it is wrong for a straight man to threaten a woman but not wrong for a straight man to threaten a gay man?
150
I think it is inherently different for a man to threaten a man than it is for a man to threaten a woman.
Sexuality is not a relevant variable in this case as I demonstrated very clearly above.
I did not say "it's not wrong for a straight man to threaten a gay man", I suggested it's somewhat within the realms of social acceptability to threaten an older man who may hurt your child (by way of domestic violence, rape, or infection with a life threatening illness) regardless or their orientation. Again, I made it explicitly clear that orientation was not relevant.
Indeed there are many (I would argue several orders of magnitude more) cases where it IS wrong for a straight man to threaten a gay man.
Don't twist my words. I find it hard to believe you actually thought I was blanketly condoning violence against gay men. I certainly do not.
Finally the "many jurisdictions" comments, I believe you're referring to age of consent laws? The person in question was 18, so consent is also a completely irrelevant point here, we're simply talking about social perception, not legal perception here. If you're referring to assault, then perhaps that's true, but most people do view a man assaulting a man different than a man assaulting a woman.
If you take issue with that, that's your opinion, but don't try pretend a "men's rights" issue is a "gay rights" issue.
Sexuality is not a relevant variable in this case as I demonstrated very clearly above.
I did not say "it's not wrong for a straight man to threaten a gay man", I suggested it's somewhat within the realms of social acceptability to threaten an older man who may hurt your child (by way of domestic violence, rape, or infection with a life threatening illness) regardless or their orientation. Again, I made it explicitly clear that orientation was not relevant.
Indeed there are many (I would argue several orders of magnitude more) cases where it IS wrong for a straight man to threaten a gay man.
Don't twist my words. I find it hard to believe you actually thought I was blanketly condoning violence against gay men. I certainly do not.
Finally the "many jurisdictions" comments, I believe you're referring to age of consent laws? The person in question was 18, so consent is also a completely irrelevant point here, we're simply talking about social perception, not legal perception here. If you're referring to assault, then perhaps that's true, but most people do view a man assaulting a man different than a man assaulting a woman.
If you take issue with that, that's your opinion, but don't try pretend a "men's rights" issue is a "gay rights" issue.
152
Actually, I think offering to tear an older female limb to limb if she hurts my younger son after asking about her intentions and her HIV status is acceptable under the circumstances. This one is passing my change-the-sexes test.
153
@Crin
Aren't you female?
That's also a factor, the gender of the parent.
I'm not trying to ouline my own personal morality, I'm just saying the social discomfort lies in the part where a man threatens physical harm on a woman. Not any other permutation (woman threatens man, gay father threatens straight man, woman threatens lesbian woman, etc etc etc). Or at least that's just my perception - your situation doesn't conflict with that.
Aren't you female?
That's also a factor, the gender of the parent.
I'm not trying to ouline my own personal morality, I'm just saying the social discomfort lies in the part where a man threatens physical harm on a woman. Not any other permutation (woman threatens man, gay father threatens straight man, woman threatens lesbian woman, etc etc etc). Or at least that's just my perception - your situation doesn't conflict with that.
154
Dan...
On your advice to OCD, I couldn't agree more with you. His son is incredibly lucky and fortunate to have such loving and supportive parents. God knows my parents didn't take the news that I was Gay well at all! But being supportive also means being "protective," which in reality is all the OCD is trying to do. There is nothing so wrong about letting his son know that that is ALL he is trying to do, and that it has nothing to do with being non supportive.
This 31-one-year-old boyfriend may in fact be perfectly fine, but it would raise some HUGE RED FLAGS to me as well. Another thing, if the boyfriend is truly a "mench," then he would have to realize that this supportive father only has best of interests in the welfare of his son.
Ricky
http://aboutgaymen.com
On your advice to OCD, I couldn't agree more with you. His son is incredibly lucky and fortunate to have such loving and supportive parents. God knows my parents didn't take the news that I was Gay well at all! But being supportive also means being "protective," which in reality is all the OCD is trying to do. There is nothing so wrong about letting his son know that that is ALL he is trying to do, and that it has nothing to do with being non supportive.
This 31-one-year-old boyfriend may in fact be perfectly fine, but it would raise some HUGE RED FLAGS to me as well. Another thing, if the boyfriend is truly a "mench," then he would have to realize that this supportive father only has best of interests in the welfare of his son.
Ricky
http://aboutgaymen.com
155
@mydriasis, but aside from gender roles, what would the problem be? If a man threatens another man who happens to be clearly weaker than him physically -- as much weaker as the average woman compared to the average man -- isn't the situation, physically speaking, exactly the same?
I understand there is a social image/stereotype about intergender aggression ('real men don't hit women'), but I suppose this is cultural, not inherent.
Wouldn't something closer to inherent (rather than socio-cultural) be connected to threatening a person who is obviously weaker than you, regardless of your gender and that person's?
I understand there is a social image/stereotype about intergender aggression ('real men don't hit women'), but I suppose this is cultural, not inherent.
Wouldn't something closer to inherent (rather than socio-cultural) be connected to threatening a person who is obviously weaker than you, regardless of your gender and that person's?
156
@mydriasis, just to clarify: I'm not trying to make a 'men's issues' thing here. Just pointing out that the inappropriateness in question is not inherent -- but social.
But I'm curious why people balk at the violent language. In English it seems to be frequent to use words like 'kill' or 'die' in all kinds of contexts, usually exaggerated. The threat Dan describes is probably not to be taken literally -- Dan wouldn't actually kill and dismember another human being (it's a lot of work, as Dexter Morgan shows), he'd be more likely to punch him, or perhaps try to get him arrested (if his son were physically hurt).
Considering how 'violent' English imagery often is, is Dan's expressiveness here even really surprising?
But I'm curious why people balk at the violent language. In English it seems to be frequent to use words like 'kill' or 'die' in all kinds of contexts, usually exaggerated. The threat Dan describes is probably not to be taken literally -- Dan wouldn't actually kill and dismember another human being (it's a lot of work, as Dexter Morgan shows), he'd be more likely to punch him, or perhaps try to get him arrested (if his son were physically hurt).
Considering how 'violent' English imagery often is, is Dan's expressiveness here even really surprising?
157
@Ank
I find "cultural" v. "inherent" discussions bore me to tears (figuratively!) so to be honest I'm not super interested in that question? There could probably be an argument made for what you're saying but I feel it's trivial, to be honest.
The point that violence by men on women is perceived differently was the point. I wasn't trying to argue somes sort of moral absolute related to that.
Your second point about violent language not being taken literally, however, is spot on.
I find "cultural" v. "inherent" discussions bore me to tears (figuratively!) so to be honest I'm not super interested in that question? There could probably be an argument made for what you're saying but I feel it's trivial, to be honest.
The point that violence by men on women is perceived differently was the point. I wasn't trying to argue somes sort of moral absolute related to that.
Your second point about violent language not being taken literally, however, is spot on.
158
@mydriasis: "I'm not trying to ouline my own personal morality, I'm just saying the social discomfort lies in the part where a man threatens physical harm on a woman."
I don't care about social acceptability. I care about what is right and wrong. We all know, for example, that it is still largely socially acceptable to bully and harm gay men, but that would not be an argument for the rightness of it. (I am not accusing you of that argument.)
It is understandable that you, as a woman, would be particularly sensitive to the idea of the father verbally bullying and physically threatening a young woman. Hopefully you can put yourself in my gay shoes and understand my sensitivity to the idea of the father verbally bullying and physically threatening a young gay man. As you know, women don't hold a monopoly as targets of straight male violence, and almost all gay men have been the target of straight male threats or actual violence. Just as in the case of violence on women, there is a large social and power imbalance when the victim is a gay man.
(By the way, I am equally against threatening of a straight man, which you seem to be okay with.)
You may say that the threats are okay because they are not motivated by the young man's sexual orientation. So is it okay to threaten a woman as long as the threats are not motivated by her gender?
By the way, there was no mention of domestic violence, rape, or forced infection with a life threatening illness in this case. In the absence of these, what justification remains for threats, in your opinion?
By the way, I wasn't referring to age of consent laws, but rather to the illegality in most jurisdictions of the kind of self-help (taking the law into your own hands) you seem to advocate. The father cannot legally harass the young man in this way. He is risking at the very least a finding of a protective order against him. Threats of violence may count a criminal harassment and can lead to a criminal record and possible imprisonment. Depending on the details (such as accusations related to HIV biased on the fact that the young man is gay) hate crime laws might even apply.
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I don't care about social acceptability. I care about what is right and wrong. We all know, for example, that it is still largely socially acceptable to bully and harm gay men, but that would not be an argument for the rightness of it. (I am not accusing you of that argument.)
It is understandable that you, as a woman, would be particularly sensitive to the idea of the father verbally bullying and physically threatening a young woman. Hopefully you can put yourself in my gay shoes and understand my sensitivity to the idea of the father verbally bullying and physically threatening a young gay man. As you know, women don't hold a monopoly as targets of straight male violence, and almost all gay men have been the target of straight male threats or actual violence. Just as in the case of violence on women, there is a large social and power imbalance when the victim is a gay man.
(By the way, I am equally against threatening of a straight man, which you seem to be okay with.)
You may say that the threats are okay because they are not motivated by the young man's sexual orientation. So is it okay to threaten a woman as long as the threats are not motivated by her gender?
By the way, there was no mention of domestic violence, rape, or forced infection with a life threatening illness in this case. In the absence of these, what justification remains for threats, in your opinion?
By the way, I wasn't referring to age of consent laws, but rather to the illegality in most jurisdictions of the kind of self-help (taking the law into your own hands) you seem to advocate. The father cannot legally harass the young man in this way. He is risking at the very least a finding of a protective order against him. Threats of violence may count a criminal harassment and can lead to a criminal record and possible imprisonment. Depending on the details (such as accusations related to HIV biased on the fact that the young man is gay) hate crime laws might even apply.
159
I am refraining (and hard) from some choice generalizations about parents, and would like to ask, in exchange, that others refrain from generalizing the Parent Card. Play it for yourself if you can back it up, but no generalizing it, please, or constructive discussion seems impossible.
160
Dr Sean - The default straight position is anti-gay until shown otherwise, is it not? That's a relatively small case of privilege to unpack. OCD had several golden opportunities to insert a gay-aceepting statement. There are none, unless one wants to make a case based only on his compliment of Mr Savage. To my tired old eyes, that smacks of someone who tolerates the kid's orientation because that's the only way to keep any line of communication open. Why are all the parents (presumably of straight children) on this thread assuming that OCD and his son have a good relationship?
My concern here is for what happens if OCD is right in spite of himself, handles it badly, and drives his son much more securely into the BF's clutches.
My concern here is for what happens if OCD is right in spite of himself, handles it badly, and drives his son much more securely into the BF's clutches.
161
Ms Driasis - I shall now make my lightest comment on the thread.
You overlook the obvious. A gay male parent of a gay male child would resort to the Erica Kane Solution and seduce the BF.
You overlook the obvious. A gay male parent of a gay male child would resort to the Erica Kane Solution and seduce the BF.
162
Moving on to letter #3, can anyone think of a benign reason for an older gay man to invite a 13 year old boy for a sleepover? I'm trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and not coming up with much. I can think of plenty of reasons why a man might ask a boy out to a ball game or might want to have the family over for a barbecue. Lots of men enjoy the company of teenagers so they can serve in a mentor role, but a sleepover? I'd tell AWA to speak to her sister AND to give the limb-to-limb speech directly to the theater fan.
163
Mr Married - I understand that pile upon pile of S/S threats of violence meant hyperbolically leads straight people to view such threats as hyperbolic, but why expect gay people to take threats of S/G violence as hyperbolic even if they are made aware of the nature of the S/S threats? Straight people can and do physically assault gay people for any or no reason and get away with it. One of the straight parents on this thread who knew where I lived could probably come at me with a baseball bat tonight and get nothing but approval all around. I'll accept that what straight lips are really saying matters if straight people will take into account what gay ears will hear. Even if there were universal agreement that this would be "good reason" violence, the threat will be taken seriously and equated to "bad violence" received in the past.
Now perhaps some of the parents here will not shed a tear if it just so happens that a threat that straight ears would take hyperbolically just "accidentally" scare away the boyfriend in this case, but, if so, they should own it and accept the damage to the parent-child relationship if the relationship happened to be a good one.
Unfortunately, to progress from here I'd have to go into personal detail, which isn't going to happen.
Now perhaps some of the parents here will not shed a tear if it just so happens that a threat that straight ears would take hyperbolically just "accidentally" scare away the boyfriend in this case, but, if so, they should own it and accept the damage to the parent-child relationship if the relationship happened to be a good one.
Unfortunately, to progress from here I'd have to go into personal detail, which isn't going to happen.
164
@160: "Why are all the parents (presumably of straight children) on this thread assuming that OCD and his son have a good relationship?"
Because he cares about his son. Because he wants to help him, and not by sending him to get the gay theraperized out of him or something. My oldest child is straight, and if her first high school boyfriend had been 31 I cannot imagine viewing that blasely, as a point where hey, you've gotta let kids make their own decisions and mistakes. I fail to see what pro-gay thing he could have inserted to make his caring for his son clear, when the whole letter is about caring for his son. I mean, I've seen some letters here where Dan has suggested, rightly, people were overly concerned with planning or loudly accepting their child's possibly hypothetical future sex life. This is an actual sex life, in conditions that cause most of us to shoot our brows skyward regardless of the genders and orientations of all involved.
"My concern here is for what happens if OCD is right in spite of himself, handles it badly, and drives his son much more securely into the BF's clutches."
He will have tried. 42 gave a pretty dead on take on what many of us fear the bf's reaction might be, and this is the risk of any action: it might not work. It might even backfire. The risk of failure is only rarely a sufficient reason to never try.
A question, and please don't take this the wrong way, but "if OCD is right in spite of himself"? Do you think a romantic relationship, especially a first one, between a high school student and a 31 year old should raise no concern at all?
Because he cares about his son. Because he wants to help him, and not by sending him to get the gay theraperized out of him or something. My oldest child is straight, and if her first high school boyfriend had been 31 I cannot imagine viewing that blasely, as a point where hey, you've gotta let kids make their own decisions and mistakes. I fail to see what pro-gay thing he could have inserted to make his caring for his son clear, when the whole letter is about caring for his son. I mean, I've seen some letters here where Dan has suggested, rightly, people were overly concerned with planning or loudly accepting their child's possibly hypothetical future sex life. This is an actual sex life, in conditions that cause most of us to shoot our brows skyward regardless of the genders and orientations of all involved.
"My concern here is for what happens if OCD is right in spite of himself, handles it badly, and drives his son much more securely into the BF's clutches."
He will have tried. 42 gave a pretty dead on take on what many of us fear the bf's reaction might be, and this is the risk of any action: it might not work. It might even backfire. The risk of failure is only rarely a sufficient reason to never try.
A question, and please don't take this the wrong way, but "if OCD is right in spite of himself"? Do you think a romantic relationship, especially a first one, between a high school student and a 31 year old should raise no concern at all?
165
Ms Crinoline - L3 is beyond anything I've ever heard of. I find it difficult to believe it's real.
166
I had a gay co-worker years ago who, as a college student, got into a relationship with a much older professor. Professor and CW built and moved into a lovely, lake-side home, and it seemed great for years.
But CW inevitably got older. The professor found some younger grad student and kicked CW out, practically overnight.
Luckily CW had meanwhile gotten a full time job on campus, saved up money and was able to buy a small house. But it was very devastating for him, to say the least.
I don't know how much money and/or time investment my co-worker had in the luxurious home they had built, but he had no marriage claims, of course.
Eventually CW found a younger guy himself and moved to another state. I don't think they stayed together either.
Such is the dynamics of older, more powerful men who prefer younger lovers.
But CW inevitably got older. The professor found some younger grad student and kicked CW out, practically overnight.
Luckily CW had meanwhile gotten a full time job on campus, saved up money and was able to buy a small house. But it was very devastating for him, to say the least.
I don't know how much money and/or time investment my co-worker had in the luxurious home they had built, but he had no marriage claims, of course.
Eventually CW found a younger guy himself and moved to another state. I don't think they stayed together either.
Such is the dynamics of older, more powerful men who prefer younger lovers.
167
@163 You believe Slog posters in general would approve of someone coming and beating you up tonight? I don't understand why you think so, but, for the record: I would not approve and would try to prevent any such beating if I heard about it beforehand.
168
I don't find the outlines of L3 odd: older male takes a pronounced interest in young teen that makes observers uncomfortable. The male being out as gay is the only unusual part. And yes, I could see someone taking a blindered "no adult sees my child as a sexual being" approach, congratulating themselves on how they are open minded enough to have a gay friend and expose the child to many types of people as a rounding experience, and they don't have those silly knee-jerk reactions. Of if mom's creep radar doesn't go off, nothing is going on. Or we have your Lewis Carroll-esque guy who likes children in a kind of odd way and doesn't manage to express it quite correctly, but isn't planning anything. Or as Dan suggests, kid is gay and this guy is mentoring.
The overnights are weird. And yet, there is nothing they can do at night they can't do during the day, unless vampires are involved.
The overnights are weird. And yet, there is nothing they can do at night they can't do during the day, unless vampires are involved.
169
Ms IPJ - OCD's letter looks a lot like the rhetoric my parents produced - and they DID put me into conversion therapy - against my will. We have no scrap of evidence that OCD doesn't want his son therapized. Naturally, I accept that parents who would not resort to such a measure would be inclined to assume that other parents also wouldn't. I'd appreciate the courtesy of it being assumed that it is natural for me to think that LWs who remind me of my parents might. (This does not count as revealing personal history, as it has been general knowledge here for some time.)
You're generalizing the Parent Card. As far as that goes, so did Mr Savage, who clearly assumed that OCD's relationship with his son has been as close and open as Mr Savage's relationship with his own son. And where is there any emotion expressed towards the boy? The word "supportive" appears twice, once in Mrs OCD's mouth and as OCD's own feeling in the context of taking action to protect his son, as if the relationship were proceeding against the boy's will.
There was plenty of opportunity to be gay-accepting or even better. His son is recently out. How did that go? What is the boy's dating history? All we know is that the parents are differing with each other over how to react. Mrs OCD is being too lenient, but her being wrong doesn't make him right. There are multiple wrong approaches. And how many parents journey from gay-negative to even gay-accepting that quickly?
I bring this up because I think it matters. The situation is difficult enough for someone with a good p-c relationship. If the relationship is strained or worse, that could easily take a big chunk out of the Holy Moral High Ground being claimed.
I'm not saying, "Don't try," I'm saying not to do what one doesn't intend. Of course the relationship should raise concern, and more concern than one with a contemporary. By all means make it clear that it's a higher-risk relationship and see what the understanding of that is from the other side.
Of course, if the goal is just to kill the relationship by any means possible, which does not appear to be what Mr Savage intends, then those who think that should own it.
"If OCD is right in spite of himself" assumes that OCD is approaching the situation selfishly, but it just happens that the relationship is a poor or dangerous one.
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You're generalizing the Parent Card. As far as that goes, so did Mr Savage, who clearly assumed that OCD's relationship with his son has been as close and open as Mr Savage's relationship with his own son. And where is there any emotion expressed towards the boy? The word "supportive" appears twice, once in Mrs OCD's mouth and as OCD's own feeling in the context of taking action to protect his son, as if the relationship were proceeding against the boy's will.
There was plenty of opportunity to be gay-accepting or even better. His son is recently out. How did that go? What is the boy's dating history? All we know is that the parents are differing with each other over how to react. Mrs OCD is being too lenient, but her being wrong doesn't make him right. There are multiple wrong approaches. And how many parents journey from gay-negative to even gay-accepting that quickly?
I bring this up because I think it matters. The situation is difficult enough for someone with a good p-c relationship. If the relationship is strained or worse, that could easily take a big chunk out of the Holy Moral High Ground being claimed.
I'm not saying, "Don't try," I'm saying not to do what one doesn't intend. Of course the relationship should raise concern, and more concern than one with a contemporary. By all means make it clear that it's a higher-risk relationship and see what the understanding of that is from the other side.
Of course, if the goal is just to kill the relationship by any means possible, which does not appear to be what Mr Savage intends, then those who think that should own it.
"If OCD is right in spite of himself" assumes that OCD is approaching the situation selfishly, but it just happens that the relationship is a poor or dangerous one.
170
Ms Erica - Thanks for noticing that; I did not mean approval from Slog readers but from society in general. I should be denied legal recourse and would only get myself into trouble if I attempted it. Straight people get away with it every day, and those who don't are by far the exception. Yes, there has been some change, but not enough, and not as much as straights of the left like to think and/or claim. I'm fairly sure this statement works just about as well if men and women were substituted for straight and gay.
171
perhaps someone mentioned this later on in the comments but the only other advice I'd give for the teenagers hard-up is to, in addition to making themselves 'interesting' is to get in very good shape. Being physically fit is hot and attractive and boosts your emotional mood and stamina as well - doesn't need to mean ripped 6-pack muscle bod. Also provides plenty of opportunities to meet both potential dates and/or gym/team friends with whom you can meet potential dates..
172
The emotional combination between being a protective parent and our children's sexuality and personal freedom is always going to be a potential minefield.
Even after the "child" is an adult -- you want to be a friend and warn them when it seems they are heading for a bad relationship. But to play the "totally knowing" parent to a 20yr old is to play the fool.
With a 13yr old -- the parent had damn well better be protective.
With a 20-something offspring totally different.
I've never pryed about my kid's relationships -- I mostly trust their judgment -- it's a mutual trust thing -- thank God.
I watched my daughter totally put down a stupid 40yr bozo that was hitting on her. Good for her. If the fool had touched her I would have kicked him in the balls, called the cops, and have him put away for a decade or so.
Hurt my kid -- to hell with you.
Interfere with my kid's love life -- to hell with me.
Contradictions -- for sure.
And gay - straight - whatever -- not an issue -- I hate those stupid labels anyhow. People are what they are, and most of us are decent and caring whatever label we get. But there are exploiters and sociopaths out there.
Take care.
Even after the "child" is an adult -- you want to be a friend and warn them when it seems they are heading for a bad relationship. But to play the "totally knowing" parent to a 20yr old is to play the fool.
With a 13yr old -- the parent had damn well better be protective.
With a 20-something offspring totally different.
I've never pryed about my kid's relationships -- I mostly trust their judgment -- it's a mutual trust thing -- thank God.
I watched my daughter totally put down a stupid 40yr bozo that was hitting on her. Good for her. If the fool had touched her I would have kicked him in the balls, called the cops, and have him put away for a decade or so.
Hurt my kid -- to hell with you.
Interfere with my kid's love life -- to hell with me.
Contradictions -- for sure.
And gay - straight - whatever -- not an issue -- I hate those stupid labels anyhow. People are what they are, and most of us are decent and caring whatever label we get. But there are exploiters and sociopaths out there.
Take care.
173
Despite thinking 42's response was that of a confirmed predator, I do agree with him in one respect: It would be better by far to ask all of the sex questions of the son, not the boyfriend.
First, your child (presumably) trusts that you have his best interests at heart, in a way that the boyfriend does not yet trust, so he is not so likely to instantly put his back up about protecting his privacy and prerogatives. You might actually get information out of him that Boyfriend has been jealously guarding as privileged.
Second, you can always present your concerns as a written checklist of "Things He Should Be Thinking About" (Are you having sex? Are you using condoms? Is he pressuring you to not use condoms? Have you seen a RECENT clean bill of health? Are there items on that bill that are not clean? Is he trying to convince you to have sex in ways that put you at risk against your better judgment? Is he pressuring you to keep secrets that might hurt you?) Even if you don't get answers, you will have gotten your message through to the one who needs to do the thinking.
It's probably more effective if you present it in the abstract, and let the red flags go up in the kids's mind of their own accord, than to present a series of "concerns" (aka personal attacks) that will just cause the two of them to close ranks.
First, your child (presumably) trusts that you have his best interests at heart, in a way that the boyfriend does not yet trust, so he is not so likely to instantly put his back up about protecting his privacy and prerogatives. You might actually get information out of him that Boyfriend has been jealously guarding as privileged.
Second, you can always present your concerns as a written checklist of "Things He Should Be Thinking About" (Are you having sex? Are you using condoms? Is he pressuring you to not use condoms? Have you seen a RECENT clean bill of health? Are there items on that bill that are not clean? Is he trying to convince you to have sex in ways that put you at risk against your better judgment? Is he pressuring you to keep secrets that might hurt you?) Even if you don't get answers, you will have gotten your message through to the one who needs to do the thinking.
It's probably more effective if you present it in the abstract, and let the red flags go up in the kids's mind of their own accord, than to present a series of "concerns" (aka personal attacks) that will just cause the two of them to close ranks.
174
Mentally disturbed illogical creature/pervs as yourself have no business dispensing advice to anyone!
Maybe you should take an anatomy refresher course in the hope you find some clarity as to the intended design purpose of the rectum!
Until then you're simply one more perverted media hack trying to drag decent society into the excrement infested sewers you and your equally disturbed fag pals inhabit! Your trash-based journalism certainly proves out the expression; "Misery loves company"... "Tick, tock, tick, tock AIDS is out hunting for your cock!
Maybe you should take an anatomy refresher course in the hope you find some clarity as to the intended design purpose of the rectum!
Until then you're simply one more perverted media hack trying to drag decent society into the excrement infested sewers you and your equally disturbed fag pals inhabit! Your trash-based journalism certainly proves out the expression; "Misery loves company"... "Tick, tock, tick, tock AIDS is out hunting for your cock!
176
Mr Avast - Good track. I hope there might be general agreement that for Junior to develop and exercise the capacity to evaluate relationships is a big long-term win.
As a general comment, I think a lot of well-meaning straight people think things are a lot better and have advanced much farther than they really are or have. One of my implicit points that perhaps I should have made more explicit is that it will help OCD's relationship with his son if he learns to unpack at least some straight privilege, regardless of what happens with this relationship. Alas, I'm out of time and must dash for now.
As a general comment, I think a lot of well-meaning straight people think things are a lot better and have advanced much farther than they really are or have. One of my implicit points that perhaps I should have made more explicit is that it will help OCD's relationship with his son if he learns to unpack at least some straight privilege, regardless of what happens with this relationship. Alas, I'm out of time and must dash for now.
178
Ven,
"The default straight position is anti-gay until shown otherwise."
Gay marriage support is a good marker for gay acceptance. Outside the Bible Belt it looks like about 50-50.
"The default straight position is anti-gay until shown otherwise."
Gay marriage support is a good marker for gay acceptance. Outside the Bible Belt it looks like about 50-50.
179
@cocky
First off, I think if you look at Ank's comment on the violent nature of the English language, you'll see the real area where we part ways in opinion. I don't think the BF is meant to truly believe the threat literally. I mean, it's a conversation that's borderline cliche. Assuming the father doesn't seem like the kind of psycho who would actually literally kill and dismember you (I mean, really?) most straight men I know would probably take that kind of "I'm protective of my child" comment in stride. Most gay man I know would as well*. It's a context thing.
"Hopefully you can put yourself in my gay shoes and understand my sensitivity to the idea of the father verbally bullying and physically threatening a young gay man."
Wait - young? I thought the premise that we were working on was that the BF was much older than the son and in fact, closer to the father in age. If he threatened an 18 year old we'd be having another conversation.
"By the way, there was no mention of domestic violence, rape, or forced infection with a life threatening illness in this case. In the absence of these, what justification remains for threats, in your opinion?"
None. That's the whole point? The reason the father is threatening the BF is because he's worried about these issues happening in the future. Or at least that's the impression I was under.
Do I think violence is good or okay? No. But look, if I had a child, and they had a partner who withheld their HIV status from him/her and then pressured him/her into sex without condoms and infected him/her? Yeah. I probably would assault that person if I ran into them and if they had any kind of conscience they wouldn't press charges.
*full disclosure, I live in what may be the most liberal/tolerant city on the continent, so keep that in mind in the context of how I form my opinions. It would not surprise me to learn that gay men in other parts of the world are (rightly) more sensitive to those kinds of statements than straight men. The discrepancy appears to be less here.
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First off, I think if you look at Ank's comment on the violent nature of the English language, you'll see the real area where we part ways in opinion. I don't think the BF is meant to truly believe the threat literally. I mean, it's a conversation that's borderline cliche. Assuming the father doesn't seem like the kind of psycho who would actually literally kill and dismember you (I mean, really?) most straight men I know would probably take that kind of "I'm protective of my child" comment in stride. Most gay man I know would as well*. It's a context thing.
"Hopefully you can put yourself in my gay shoes and understand my sensitivity to the idea of the father verbally bullying and physically threatening a young gay man."
Wait - young? I thought the premise that we were working on was that the BF was much older than the son and in fact, closer to the father in age. If he threatened an 18 year old we'd be having another conversation.
"By the way, there was no mention of domestic violence, rape, or forced infection with a life threatening illness in this case. In the absence of these, what justification remains for threats, in your opinion?"
None. That's the whole point? The reason the father is threatening the BF is because he's worried about these issues happening in the future. Or at least that's the impression I was under.
Do I think violence is good or okay? No. But look, if I had a child, and they had a partner who withheld their HIV status from him/her and then pressured him/her into sex without condoms and infected him/her? Yeah. I probably would assault that person if I ran into them and if they had any kind of conscience they wouldn't press charges.
*full disclosure, I live in what may be the most liberal/tolerant city on the continent, so keep that in mind in the context of how I form my opinions. It would not surprise me to learn that gay men in other parts of the world are (rightly) more sensitive to those kinds of statements than straight men. The discrepancy appears to be less here.
180
@cocky
"One of the straight parents on this thread who knew where I lived could probably come at me with a baseball bat tonight and get nothing but approval all around."
I saw this after I posted and I think it sort of goes to my final point.
The thing about the internet is that people are all talking to eachother from different parts of the world. Sometimes places with drastically different circumstances. I'm assuming you're American? What city do you live in, if you don't mind me asking?
"One of the straight parents on this thread who knew where I lived could probably come at me with a baseball bat tonight and get nothing but approval all around."
I saw this after I posted and I think it sort of goes to my final point.
The thing about the internet is that people are all talking to eachother from different parts of the world. Sometimes places with drastically different circumstances. I'm assuming you're American? What city do you live in, if you don't mind me asking?
181
Used to love the column but success is making you rather parochial in your outlook. Your advice to I am the father was bullshit. I have always tried to date out of my age range both older and younger as there seems to be more to learn from those who have had different life experiences.Don't like to over generalize but the gay guys I have known who date out of there age range tend to be smarter, more together and eventually more successful. Its an ancient tradition going back to classical Greece. Not saying there are no older predatory gay guys, but a little common sense can go a long way. Why assume the worst here Dan. Diversity in San Francisco.
182
@170 "I'm fairly sure this statement works just about as well if men and women were substituted for straight and gay.
Yes. Violence by women against men is also widely tolerated, sad to say.
@176 "well-meaning straight people think things are a lot better and have advanced much farther than they really are or have..."
Yes.
@178, "Gay marriage support is a good marker for gay acceptance. Outside the Bible Belt it looks like about 50-50."
The straight parents who support gay marriage -- how many would be unhappy if their children were gay? It's a bit like race: you can support legal interracial marriage for other people while still being pretty racist.
Yes. Violence by women against men is also widely tolerated, sad to say.
@176 "well-meaning straight people think things are a lot better and have advanced much farther than they really are or have..."
Yes.
@178, "Gay marriage support is a good marker for gay acceptance. Outside the Bible Belt it looks like about 50-50."
The straight parents who support gay marriage -- how many would be unhappy if their children were gay? It's a bit like race: you can support legal interracial marriage for other people while still being pretty racist.
184
Mr Ven, it is quite possible to take your comment on 'accepting what gay ears hear' seriously -- after all, we are all the product of our experience, and if you read into this father's letter part of your own experience, you're simply being human. Others are doing the same here with their own experience, and that is equally OK.
It's simply that what our experience tells us (our gay or straight ears) usually makes us overlook the fact that there is missing information in the letter. So we have to make asusmptions. You assumed that the default is anti-gay. I'd agree with you in Brazil (though things are changing), and possibly in some areas of the US; but not in others. I see others making a different default assumption, and they may be equally right.
Or wrong. Because it all boils down to the old we-don't-know and we're-guessing-based-on-a-6-sentence-letter.
So I'd reduce all the suggestions to hypotheticals. If this father has a great relationship with his son and is simply concerned with the dangers so frequently found in relationships between 18- and 31-year-olds, then... If the father only has the rhetorics of 'care' but would be willing to submit his son to corrective therapy or something else, then...
Personally, I'd rather take the letter as an opportunity to discuss what to do if your child is involved in a relationship that you view as high-risk. Should you go only via the child -- or should you attempt to contact the child's B/GF(s) and find out what kind of people they are and then assess the possibility of harm for your child?
I think I'd do both. I wouldn't corner the B/GF(s): I would simply seek contact with them to assess what kind of person they are. And I would go on talking to my child about my concerns and the possible dangers and red flags.
Regardless of sexual orientation.
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It's simply that what our experience tells us (our gay or straight ears) usually makes us overlook the fact that there is missing information in the letter. So we have to make asusmptions. You assumed that the default is anti-gay. I'd agree with you in Brazil (though things are changing), and possibly in some areas of the US; but not in others. I see others making a different default assumption, and they may be equally right.
Or wrong. Because it all boils down to the old we-don't-know and we're-guessing-based-on-a-6-sentence-letter.
So I'd reduce all the suggestions to hypotheticals. If this father has a great relationship with his son and is simply concerned with the dangers so frequently found in relationships between 18- and 31-year-olds, then... If the father only has the rhetorics of 'care' but would be willing to submit his son to corrective therapy or something else, then...
Personally, I'd rather take the letter as an opportunity to discuss what to do if your child is involved in a relationship that you view as high-risk. Should you go only via the child -- or should you attempt to contact the child's B/GF(s) and find out what kind of people they are and then assess the possibility of harm for your child?
I think I'd do both. I wouldn't corner the B/GF(s): I would simply seek contact with them to assess what kind of person they are. And I would go on talking to my child about my concerns and the possible dangers and red flags.
Regardless of sexual orientation.
185
@cockyballsoup, but isn't this man's son's boyfriend much older? The father isn't harassing a much younger gay man, he'd be talking to someone much closer to his own age group. Or am I missing something here?
And I insist again: English speakers tend are often hyperbolic in their use of apparently violent language; I've often heard Americans say things that sounded quite violent to my Brazilian ears but were clearly not meant literally ('I'll kill you if you touch that mayonnaise!'). Plus, Dan's boyish style is often hyperbolic -- I don't think he is really suggesting the father should physically threaten his son's BF, or carry out the threat in case the BF does turn out to be a POS.
My feeling is that Dan's exaggeration is simply meant to show the concern he assumes this father has for the well-being of his son, not as a guideline to actual action to be undertaken in case his son's relationship goes awry.
And I insist again: English speakers tend are often hyperbolic in their use of apparently violent language; I've often heard Americans say things that sounded quite violent to my Brazilian ears but were clearly not meant literally ('I'll kill you if you touch that mayonnaise!'). Plus, Dan's boyish style is often hyperbolic -- I don't think he is really suggesting the father should physically threaten his son's BF, or carry out the threat in case the BF does turn out to be a POS.
My feeling is that Dan's exaggeration is simply meant to show the concern he assumes this father has for the well-being of his son, not as a guideline to actual action to be undertaken in case his son's relationship goes awry.
187
"As for your son, OCD, tell him that you realize gay guys his age sometimes date older men because there aren't a lot of boys his own age to choose from."
Uh, did it NOT occur to you that some teenagers PREFER an older man? When I was 19 year old gay young'un, I had a wonderful fling with a 36 year old man.
"... something's usually wrong when a 31-year-old is dating a teenager. Something's usually wrong with the 31-year-old. There are exceptions, of course, and maybe his boyfriend is exceptional..."
Just curious, Dan, do you consider your friend, Sam Adams, mayor of Portland, OR to have something "wrong" with him, given his history of at least kissing if not fucking a 17 year old volunteer? Or does he qualify as an "exception" in your book?
Finally, you're WAAAYYY off-base to suggest that the dad ask his son's boyfriend about his HIV-status. Absolutely none of his business and uncalled for. Your HIVphobia strikes again.
Uh, did it NOT occur to you that some teenagers PREFER an older man? When I was 19 year old gay young'un, I had a wonderful fling with a 36 year old man.
"... something's usually wrong when a 31-year-old is dating a teenager. Something's usually wrong with the 31-year-old. There are exceptions, of course, and maybe his boyfriend is exceptional..."
Just curious, Dan, do you consider your friend, Sam Adams, mayor of Portland, OR to have something "wrong" with him, given his history of at least kissing if not fucking a 17 year old volunteer? Or does he qualify as an "exception" in your book?
Finally, you're WAAAYYY off-base to suggest that the dad ask his son's boyfriend about his HIV-status. Absolutely none of his business and uncalled for. Your HIVphobia strikes again.
188
@16, i agree, i've been thinking for awhile that dan ought to write a book about sex for teens. i would love to give it to my kids and all their friends!
189
Mr Ank - You're mixing things together. What gay ears hear goes to the interpretation of threats. Leaving aside the question of why the threat advocates who present a case of the threat being entirely, completely, 200% hyperbolic are so invested in insisting that the threat be made (and I could say something telling including the word "uppity" but I won't) if there's absolutely completely no intention of acting on it, I pointed out that what people like Mr Married intend and how the other party will interpret the statement may be so foreign as to produce a different and not-desired result. I accept the variation claimed by Ms Driasis for her locale.
I thank you, by the way, for not even playing the Parent Card.
As for how pro- or anti-gay OCD is, it really only matters in terms of how much he'll be able to do without alienating Junior (perhaps at all, perhaps further). It irked me to see so many posters crowning him Daddy of the Year when there is no evidence of his being even gay-accepting let alone gay-welcoming, but that's actually not all that relevant a point. I could enumerate several pink flags that suggest the relationship isn't all that close (this is not the letter that a parent of the ilk of Ms Kim would write), but that still just limits what reaction to this potential danger (and I have niggled about highER risk as opposed to high) will help his p-c relationship. What we don't know from the letter is whether OCD has earned the parental capital to be able to interfere pre-emptively without causing harm instead of good.
The poster whose point of view interests me most is Mr Ricky, who calls OCD "so loving and supportive", which I hope is not just because his own parents were worse. As his perspective comes from somewhere similar to mine, I have to say I'd take his word far sooner than that of parents who were never so lucky as to have an LGBTetc child themselves, just as I'd not expect parents to take my word on anything before that of a parent who has been so fortunate.
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I thank you, by the way, for not even playing the Parent Card.
As for how pro- or anti-gay OCD is, it really only matters in terms of how much he'll be able to do without alienating Junior (perhaps at all, perhaps further). It irked me to see so many posters crowning him Daddy of the Year when there is no evidence of his being even gay-accepting let alone gay-welcoming, but that's actually not all that relevant a point. I could enumerate several pink flags that suggest the relationship isn't all that close (this is not the letter that a parent of the ilk of Ms Kim would write), but that still just limits what reaction to this potential danger (and I have niggled about highER risk as opposed to high) will help his p-c relationship. What we don't know from the letter is whether OCD has earned the parental capital to be able to interfere pre-emptively without causing harm instead of good.
The poster whose point of view interests me most is Mr Ricky, who calls OCD "so loving and supportive", which I hope is not just because his own parents were worse. As his perspective comes from somewhere similar to mine, I have to say I'd take his word far sooner than that of parents who were never so lucky as to have an LGBTetc child themselves, just as I'd not expect parents to take my word on anything before that of a parent who has been so fortunate.
190
@Hunter
I'm getting tired of responding to you. The only reason I do is the Canadian politeness. Probably the same place I got my mild distaste for guns. Anyway it'll wear down eventually and I'll just ignore you.
Anyway, you guessed my height wrong, but I am petite, yes!
I'm getting tired of responding to you. The only reason I do is the Canadian politeness. Probably the same place I got my mild distaste for guns. Anyway it'll wear down eventually and I'll just ignore you.
Anyway, you guessed my height wrong, but I am petite, yes!
193
Mr Ven, I've had the Parent Card played on me during my life sufficiently often to see what usually lurks behind it.
You leave aside the question of why the defenders of the threat-as-hyperbole are so invested in insisting that it is hyperbolic, but I actually do find it interesting. I'm not kidding when I say that English often sounds quite violent to me -- I had at first heard it with "Brazilian ears" and thought Americans were making threats more often than they actually were. (I'm not saying this is the same thing, or has the same intensity of suffering, as the way gay ears interpret threats -- I'm just pointing out that I, too, was surprised by some of the linguistic theatrics found in English, especially American English.) It may be that they're defending it because that is indeed how they understand it. I see you're hinting at something else, and I'd be curious to know in detail. Do you think even people here at SLOG actually do have more interest in keeping the possibility of threats, real or otherwise, open?
(Rhetorical threats and staged/choregraphed violence are indeed frequent in American culture: see some sports, like American football or boxing, or wrestling.)
I quite agree that a difference in interpretation between father and BF may lead to quite non-desired results. Which is why, personally, even if I thought the BF in question was a POS, I would refrain from threats, and I would find other ways of thwarting his evil intentions.
I do agree that people may have assumed too quickly that OCD is pro-gay. One might say that, if he was really anti-gay, he wouldn't have written to Dan to begin with (why ask a gay man for advice); and his wording is at least not blatantly anti-gay. But indeed, having had some experience with racist people who deny that they're racist, I can see the point you're trying to make.
I suppose many people here are projecting onto OCD whatever they liked / hated the most about their own parents. It's a pity that LWs don't often comment further in the comments section; we might find out more about exactly what kind of parent he is.
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You leave aside the question of why the defenders of the threat-as-hyperbole are so invested in insisting that it is hyperbolic, but I actually do find it interesting. I'm not kidding when I say that English often sounds quite violent to me -- I had at first heard it with "Brazilian ears" and thought Americans were making threats more often than they actually were. (I'm not saying this is the same thing, or has the same intensity of suffering, as the way gay ears interpret threats -- I'm just pointing out that I, too, was surprised by some of the linguistic theatrics found in English, especially American English.) It may be that they're defending it because that is indeed how they understand it. I see you're hinting at something else, and I'd be curious to know in detail. Do you think even people here at SLOG actually do have more interest in keeping the possibility of threats, real or otherwise, open?
(Rhetorical threats and staged/choregraphed violence are indeed frequent in American culture: see some sports, like American football or boxing, or wrestling.)
I quite agree that a difference in interpretation between father and BF may lead to quite non-desired results. Which is why, personally, even if I thought the BF in question was a POS, I would refrain from threats, and I would find other ways of thwarting his evil intentions.
I do agree that people may have assumed too quickly that OCD is pro-gay. One might say that, if he was really anti-gay, he wouldn't have written to Dan to begin with (why ask a gay man for advice); and his wording is at least not blatantly anti-gay. But indeed, having had some experience with racist people who deny that they're racist, I can see the point you're trying to make.
I suppose many people here are projecting onto OCD whatever they liked / hated the most about their own parents. It's a pity that LWs don't often comment further in the comments section; we might find out more about exactly what kind of parent he is.
194
@Hunter, just out of curiosity, what did mydriasis ever do to you to justify this kind of pestering? Just curious.
195
I thought I had explained this sufficiently.
I find her posts annoying. They are filled with self praise, hatred for older people, and preposterous re-identifications. She has also personally attacked me, and hasn't spared the obscenities.
She is our Shirley Temple. But like ST, My doesn't age well.
I find her posts annoying. They are filled with self praise, hatred for older people, and preposterous re-identifications. She has also personally attacked me, and hasn't spared the obscenities.
She is our Shirley Temple. But like ST, My doesn't age well.
196
193-- Ank- Once again, I'm leaving the original subject aside and getting interested in language. The only language I speak fluently is American English, and even I have noticed how violently and hyperbolically the people around me speak. I started making a concerted effort many years ago to tone down the rhetoric, to speak of a busy day in which many things went wrong as "inconvenient" instead of a "disaster," to say "I'll be angry" instead of "I'll wring his neck."
How do people speak in other languages? When one is trying to convey annoyance at a beloved roommate over housekeeping, how would you tell the target that if he doesn't stop snoring and leaving his smelly socks around that you'll smother him in his sleep? Or, I mean, how do you convey that sentiment?
How do people speak in other languages? When one is trying to convey annoyance at a beloved roommate over housekeeping, how would you tell the target that if he doesn't stop snoring and leaving his smelly socks around that you'll smother him in his sleep? Or, I mean, how do you convey that sentiment?
197
@Ank
Hunter can't tell the difference between "doesn't want to fuck" and "hate". The blurring of that distinction is common in childish men.
Not sure what "personal" "vicious" "obscene" attack I made. Apparently I offended his delicate sensiblities. I'd bet dollars to donuts that whatever I said was nowhere near the filth he used to toss at Erica when she was the object of his attention.
P.S. I clarified why I asked you about the subject you teach a few columns back, I don't know if you saw it or no.
Hunter can't tell the difference between "doesn't want to fuck" and "hate". The blurring of that distinction is common in childish men.
Not sure what "personal" "vicious" "obscene" attack I made. Apparently I offended his delicate sensiblities. I'd bet dollars to donuts that whatever I said was nowhere near the filth he used to toss at Erica when she was the object of his attention.
P.S. I clarified why I asked you about the subject you teach a few columns back, I don't know if you saw it or no.
198
given that i periodically run across older gay been-together-forever-till-death-do-them-part couples, usually in the supermarket, who have a solid twenty year gap... i think it's self evident that it works just fine for long term relationships. i read obituaries of gay guys in their 70s/80s/90s, and they leave behind a partner they've been living with since they were 22 and 40, or 33 and 55...
it's seems that there is nothing dysfunctional about these relationships, and it is only a current social fad that says age is a barrier. not so long ago class or race was a MUCH bigger consideration than age, which was only really a concern if the age gap was closer to 50. and even then...
on the topic of older guys looking after / out for young boys... the opinion that relatives are ok but non-blood isn't?? what crap!! most child abuse is perpetrated by family. that is a well documented fact. there is no reason why this guy isn't just trying to help out. statistically speaking, the fact that he's gay makes it LESS LIKELY that he'll be a paedophile. yes, sure, there might be an issue, and people should listen to the kid, if they show reluctance or discomfort, and keep their eyes open... but not assume anything just because of their own prejudices. my 9 and 13 year olds spent the other weekend at the house of a man who is the (long long time ago) ex-boyfriend of their father. i know they are much safer there than with either of my parents.
it's seems that there is nothing dysfunctional about these relationships, and it is only a current social fad that says age is a barrier. not so long ago class or race was a MUCH bigger consideration than age, which was only really a concern if the age gap was closer to 50. and even then...
on the topic of older guys looking after / out for young boys... the opinion that relatives are ok but non-blood isn't?? what crap!! most child abuse is perpetrated by family. that is a well documented fact. there is no reason why this guy isn't just trying to help out. statistically speaking, the fact that he's gay makes it LESS LIKELY that he'll be a paedophile. yes, sure, there might be an issue, and people should listen to the kid, if they show reluctance or discomfort, and keep their eyes open... but not assume anything just because of their own prejudices. my 9 and 13 year olds spent the other weekend at the house of a man who is the (long long time ago) ex-boyfriend of their father. i know they are much safer there than with either of my parents.
199
I'm sorry, but, once one is of legal age, it's no-one's business whom he or she dates, fucks, or has an LTR with. I can understand the desire of the parent to protect their adult child, but taking the adult child's significant other aside and questioning him/her about the intimate details of the relationship is incredibly invasive and, frankly, completely inappropriate. Regardless of the credibility of the threat of physical violence, making such a threat establishes an adversarial relationship with the significant other.
Why can't the father take his son aside and discuss with what the son's rights and expectations within the relationship are and what the father thinks is reasonable to insist on?
Why can't the father take his son aside and discuss with what the son's rights and expectations within the relationship are and what the father thinks is reasonable to insist on?
200
Truer words with regards to the aunt's question have never been spoken. That situation creeps me the hell out.
201
@195(Hunter78), I have a hard time agreeing with you -- I don't think mydriasis' posts are annoying, even when I disagree with her (she doesn't go out of her way to displease others, as far as I can tell), and I haven't seen any 'filth' or 'hatred' in her posts.
@197(mydriasis), I suppose people sometimes just get offended at something and never really change their opinions. Is it worth it to try to get to the bottom of it? I don't know. It's up to Hunter, I guess.
Oh, no, I didn't see that. I remember you asking me what I taught, but I don't remember reading your answer. (I'm going to Brazil for six weeks day after tomorrow to, among other things, teach a seminar on the historical-comparative method at a local small university in the North.) Should I go look for it? Was it something important?
@197(mydriasis), I suppose people sometimes just get offended at something and never really change their opinions. Is it worth it to try to get to the bottom of it? I don't know. It's up to Hunter, I guess.
Oh, no, I didn't see that. I remember you asking me what I taught, but I don't remember reading your answer. (I'm going to Brazil for six weeks day after tomorrow to, among other things, teach a seminar on the historical-comparative method at a local small university in the North.) Should I go look for it? Was it something important?
203
@196(Crinoline), oh! that's a question that could take a whole book to answer... and as far as I know nobody has looked at violent metaphors cross-linguistically. I can give you my observations and a few facts, which hardly qualifies as a fair answer, though.
'Pretend violence' in American culture was a little surprising to me, even before I could speak English (I remember watching American slapstick comedies in Brazilian TV when I was 12, 13 -- the Three Stooges, things like that -- and wondering, but this guy is just hurting that other guy; why is this funny?). I suppose the violent metaphors in language are related to that, in that intricate way that language and culture feed on each other. (Why did they choose the word 'kill' for the command to delete a computer file in those old days, pre-IBM PC, when computers still had no colors and very, very poor graphics?)
In Portuguese, you will find also pretend threats of violence metaphors of the "I'll kill you if you keep doing that" kind, but more often than not the proposed consequence is some exaggerated behavior that will presumably also annoy the hearer ("I'll scream if you don't stop this") or some denial of contact/friendship ("I'll never talk to you again if you don't stop this!"), or then some exaggerated bad consequence ("I'll die / faint / go crazy / cry if you don't stop this!"), even among men / roommates. A little less frequently one also finds the language of shame ('have you no shame?' 'you should be ashamed of doing that!') -- though, in my observation, this is more frequent among Russians than Brazilians.
When angry, Americans will often tell you to 'drop dead' or variations on this theme; Brazilians will rather send you to hell or to the devil -- which I suppose implies dying, but Brazilians will carefully avoid the words 'die' and 'kill'. (There's also a rich variety of sexual offenses and suggestions about indulging in various kinds of sexual acts -- also frequent in America; in that respect, Brazilians and Americans are quite similar.) But to verbally express the desire that someone should die sounds waaay stronger in Portuguese than in English. (After I learned English, I even noticed that Portuguese subtitles of American movies would often not translate pretend/ritualized death treats literally -- if the someone said "drop dead!" in a movie, the Portuguese subtitle is likely to be closer to "be damned!" or "go to hell!", but no explicit references to dying or killing.)
I think part of the difference is that Brazilians have this 'ethos of goodness' -- everything is OK, I'm OK, you're OK, we're all friends, except we really aren't -- so, in Portuguese, a threat of violence, even if it clearly is not meant as such, sounds much more disturbing.
Whereas in America, I think (I'm playing the tourist-as-anthropologist role here, because I really have no hard evidence to support this, but...), there's this feeling of self-reliance -- I can do anything I need by myself -- which is often expressed in terms like "nobody tells me what to do!" or "I can tell anyone I don't like to go fuck themselves! I don't need anyone!". The cowboy myth (which has absolutely no counterpart in Brazilian culture), with duels between bad and good guys with us cheering for the good guy to draw faster and kill the bad guy... the idea that it's a good thing to go "kick some ass" (another expression without any real counterpart in Brazilian culture), expressions of dominance like "we rule!" etc. suggest a rather adversarial mode of human interaction.
In other words, in my armchair-social-scientist persona, I sometimes wonder if Americans don't simply associate "freedom" (like the cowboy who doesn't rely on anyone) with a somewhat boyishly arrogant behavior in which you just say it up front when you're angry at someone, because being too 'nicey' or 'polite' would be a little too 'submissive', as if it implied giving up some of one's freedom. To put it in a stream-of-consciousness format, it's as if they thought: if you piss me off, I can tell you to "drop dead" or "go eat shit and die" because I'm a free man and that's what free men do, they're not afraid to express their anger, they can take care of themselves, and if you don't like my French, well, screw you, I don't depend on you, I'm self-reliant, I'm the Lone Ranger, I don't have to 'kiss ass', I don't have to please anyone.
Does that make sense to you?
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'Pretend violence' in American culture was a little surprising to me, even before I could speak English (I remember watching American slapstick comedies in Brazilian TV when I was 12, 13 -- the Three Stooges, things like that -- and wondering, but this guy is just hurting that other guy; why is this funny?). I suppose the violent metaphors in language are related to that, in that intricate way that language and culture feed on each other. (Why did they choose the word 'kill' for the command to delete a computer file in those old days, pre-IBM PC, when computers still had no colors and very, very poor graphics?)
In Portuguese, you will find also pretend threats of violence metaphors of the "I'll kill you if you keep doing that" kind, but more often than not the proposed consequence is some exaggerated behavior that will presumably also annoy the hearer ("I'll scream if you don't stop this") or some denial of contact/friendship ("I'll never talk to you again if you don't stop this!"), or then some exaggerated bad consequence ("I'll die / faint / go crazy / cry if you don't stop this!"), even among men / roommates. A little less frequently one also finds the language of shame ('have you no shame?' 'you should be ashamed of doing that!') -- though, in my observation, this is more frequent among Russians than Brazilians.
When angry, Americans will often tell you to 'drop dead' or variations on this theme; Brazilians will rather send you to hell or to the devil -- which I suppose implies dying, but Brazilians will carefully avoid the words 'die' and 'kill'. (There's also a rich variety of sexual offenses and suggestions about indulging in various kinds of sexual acts -- also frequent in America; in that respect, Brazilians and Americans are quite similar.) But to verbally express the desire that someone should die sounds waaay stronger in Portuguese than in English. (After I learned English, I even noticed that Portuguese subtitles of American movies would often not translate pretend/ritualized death treats literally -- if the someone said "drop dead!" in a movie, the Portuguese subtitle is likely to be closer to "be damned!" or "go to hell!", but no explicit references to dying or killing.)
I think part of the difference is that Brazilians have this 'ethos of goodness' -- everything is OK, I'm OK, you're OK, we're all friends, except we really aren't -- so, in Portuguese, a threat of violence, even if it clearly is not meant as such, sounds much more disturbing.
Whereas in America, I think (I'm playing the tourist-as-anthropologist role here, because I really have no hard evidence to support this, but...), there's this feeling of self-reliance -- I can do anything I need by myself -- which is often expressed in terms like "nobody tells me what to do!" or "I can tell anyone I don't like to go fuck themselves! I don't need anyone!". The cowboy myth (which has absolutely no counterpart in Brazilian culture), with duels between bad and good guys with us cheering for the good guy to draw faster and kill the bad guy... the idea that it's a good thing to go "kick some ass" (another expression without any real counterpart in Brazilian culture), expressions of dominance like "we rule!" etc. suggest a rather adversarial mode of human interaction.
In other words, in my armchair-social-scientist persona, I sometimes wonder if Americans don't simply associate "freedom" (like the cowboy who doesn't rely on anyone) with a somewhat boyishly arrogant behavior in which you just say it up front when you're angry at someone, because being too 'nicey' or 'polite' would be a little too 'submissive', as if it implied giving up some of one's freedom. To put it in a stream-of-consciousness format, it's as if they thought: if you piss me off, I can tell you to "drop dead" or "go eat shit and die" because I'm a free man and that's what free men do, they're not afraid to express their anger, they can take care of themselves, and if you don't like my French, well, screw you, I don't depend on you, I'm self-reliant, I'm the Lone Ranger, I don't have to 'kiss ass', I don't have to please anyone.
Does that make sense to you?
204
@193 ank-san, venn-san,
Pro-gay, anti-gay, ambivalence over your 18 year old's sex-life-to-be is a given. Venn-san, I was constrained by Dan's language in my approach to Mr. 31, and his not including the conversations, separately and together, where the son was included. I'd do the same with Ms. 31, though frankly I'd be inclined to let my wife step into the role.
Last night my youngest's best friend went missing after a parental argument; I was woken by the police at my door. I've had a few experiences with this kind of situation, though this is the first time being on the parent side of the equation. The end result was the best it could be, but I've almost had to identify the body as well. Blindly charging in with threats and ignoring the child's input is unwise, to say the least.
We do the best we can, with the tools available to us, and we are very, very human. I'm mentally still shaking, and cursing myself for... being helpless and weak (and this wasn't my child). Now it's on to damage control and clean up. Time to keep going.
Peace.
Pro-gay, anti-gay, ambivalence over your 18 year old's sex-life-to-be is a given. Venn-san, I was constrained by Dan's language in my approach to Mr. 31, and his not including the conversations, separately and together, where the son was included. I'd do the same with Ms. 31, though frankly I'd be inclined to let my wife step into the role.
Last night my youngest's best friend went missing after a parental argument; I was woken by the police at my door. I've had a few experiences with this kind of situation, though this is the first time being on the parent side of the equation. The end result was the best it could be, but I've almost had to identify the body as well. Blindly charging in with threats and ignoring the child's input is unwise, to say the least.
We do the best we can, with the tools available to us, and we are very, very human. I'm mentally still shaking, and cursing myself for... being helpless and weak (and this wasn't my child). Now it's on to damage control and clean up. Time to keep going.
Peace.
205
sometimes it's the youngish that are predators of an unsupecting older buying into a moment of weakness, even if 18/31 ratio sounds bad. having been relentlessly friended, then pursued by someone who became my lover in spite of him being 18 years younger , stunned me when I awoke to find my bank account emptied in a manner befitting a skilled criminal. I'm proof we can all be fooled. The younger abused by the older can be just another stereotype. Ever since whenever, I hear some youngish tells me i'm "so interesting and hot lookin' " I run for the hills.
206
@204(Married-san), I also understand the idea that, once a father starts thinking about his child's safety in his sex-life-to-be, then all kinds of stereotypes and bad ideas come to mind, and one is all to prone to believe them. One may suddenly see oneself being 'careful' to the point of bigotry, because what if this guy is the one case in which all those bad stereotypes happen to be true, etc. etc. I think I would first try to talk to my son, and then I'd try to meet this other guy (preferably with my son present too) to see what kind of person I thought he was. I wonder what I'd do afterwards if I came to the conclusion that the guy was indeed not a good person. At 18, I probably couldn't prevent my son from seeing him if he wanted to, but I certainly would be very worried.
I'm glad the situation with your youngest's best friend end up not being a catastrophe. I'm hoping that whatever led to this situation -- the parental arguemnt -- is not a consistent pattern but something more amenable to rational solutions. Of course, you are not to blame, but I would probably have felt the same wayb if I were the one woken by the police looking for a missing child.
I'm glad the situation with your youngest's best friend end up not being a catastrophe. I'm hoping that whatever led to this situation -- the parental arguemnt -- is not a consistent pattern but something more amenable to rational solutions. Of course, you are not to blame, but I would probably have felt the same wayb if I were the one woken by the police looking for a missing child.
207
You give such fantastic advice! I stumbled across this page and couldn't stop reading, I wish I had found this when I was younger and in need of council. I made it to 27 on my own somehow, but can't help but wonder how much smoother it would have been with guidance as sage as yours :)
208
Mr Married - Oh, dear. That sounds grim. Best wishes for a speedy recovery all around.
Now I think it was only two or three weeks ago that Dr McGraw interviewed that 41M/18F couple and her mother; he'd been her teacher and eventually left his family for her. The mother had threatened him, but there he was, being treated with the courtesy and respect shown to all ratings generators (or, perhaps in Portuguese, guests).
And sure enough, today there was a woman who had an affair with her son's 14-year-old male friend (which included her giving him drugs to administer to his grandmother so that he could sneak out to meet her), got pregnant so that they could marry without parental permission, married him apparently because she was told that would avert a criminal prosecution, had his baby in prison and had to give it to someone, and here they were, still married, with him now 21, upset about not being able to get custody of their child.
It would be too depressing to calculate the odds on whether OCD could actually put the boyfriend in the hospital and get away with it - altered somewhat, perhaps, if the BF were an RC priest.
And that, I think to myself, is Privilege with a capital PRIV.
Now I think it was only two or three weeks ago that Dr McGraw interviewed that 41M/18F couple and her mother; he'd been her teacher and eventually left his family for her. The mother had threatened him, but there he was, being treated with the courtesy and respect shown to all ratings generators (or, perhaps in Portuguese, guests).
And sure enough, today there was a woman who had an affair with her son's 14-year-old male friend (which included her giving him drugs to administer to his grandmother so that he could sneak out to meet her), got pregnant so that they could marry without parental permission, married him apparently because she was told that would avert a criminal prosecution, had his baby in prison and had to give it to someone, and here they were, still married, with him now 21, upset about not being able to get custody of their child.
It would be too depressing to calculate the odds on whether OCD could actually put the boyfriend in the hospital and get away with it - altered somewhat, perhaps, if the BF were an RC priest.
And that, I think to myself, is Privilege with a capital PRIV.
212
To #12. In Texas you can be a registered sex offender for pissing on the street and someone calling a cop on you. Any conviction for indecent exposure results in a sex offender crime.
213
#12. If you get caught pissing beside the road in Texas you can be convicted of indecent exposure which adds you to the Texas list of registered sex offenders. Poor excuse for denying a relationship. I think Dan's advice is better for OCD.
214
No offense, but I'm not really interested in your non-sequitor musings about wisdom. I typically listen to those who have some.
215
@Ank
I won't dredge up the convo here (you'll remember why) I just put my own half-cocked theory as to where the communiation breakdown was between you and other SL commenters. If you're curious, go ahead and read.
I won't dredge up the convo here (you'll remember why) I just put my own half-cocked theory as to where the communiation breakdown was between you and other SL commenters. If you're curious, go ahead and read.
216
When I was in Grade 7, I 'dated' a boy who was in Grade 9/10, we held hands and talked over the phone, I liked having an older boyfriend because older boys are major riiiiight?
Nope, looking back, that older boy, who approached me, was way more immature than the boys and girls in my class - and that was WHY he was dating a junior!!!!
Now, occasionally, there are Caesar and Cleopatra where two people find each other a match in spite of the age difference, but a considerate older partner should be careful and considerate - and as other commentators have noted - NOT be offended at the suggestion that he could be something else - because it's good that the parents care.
...and dude, that 50 year old man is a major creeper! Even if it's not a sexual thing, he's not well adjusted.
...and oh, just reading John Douglas's chapter, "Candy from Strangers" (Journey Into Darkness), there was a 11yr old child gymnast in Toronto, Alison Parrott, who was raped and murdered after she met up with someone who said he's some kind of official photographer. Douglas notes that the pedophile probably didn't expect the girl to show up alone, he was probably hoping to take some photographs that he'll keep for private use. When Alison showed up alone - that further aided his delusion that she was mature.
Please please do not leave that 13 yr old Alone with his admirer! Maybe it's not sexual, but what if it was? The safer sane middleground - supervised contact.
Nope, looking back, that older boy, who approached me, was way more immature than the boys and girls in my class - and that was WHY he was dating a junior!!!!
Now, occasionally, there are Caesar and Cleopatra where two people find each other a match in spite of the age difference, but a considerate older partner should be careful and considerate - and as other commentators have noted - NOT be offended at the suggestion that he could be something else - because it's good that the parents care.
...and dude, that 50 year old man is a major creeper! Even if it's not a sexual thing, he's not well adjusted.
...and oh, just reading John Douglas's chapter, "Candy from Strangers" (Journey Into Darkness), there was a 11yr old child gymnast in Toronto, Alison Parrott, who was raped and murdered after she met up with someone who said he's some kind of official photographer. Douglas notes that the pedophile probably didn't expect the girl to show up alone, he was probably hoping to take some photographs that he'll keep for private use. When Alison showed up alone - that further aided his delusion that she was mature.
Please please do not leave that 13 yr old Alone with his admirer! Maybe it's not sexual, but what if it was? The safer sane middleground - supervised contact.
217
When I was in Grade 7, I 'dated' a boy who was in Grade 9/10, we held hands and talked over the phone, I liked having an older boyfriend because older boys are major riiiiight?
Nope, looking back, that older boy, who approached me, was way more immature than the boys and girls in my class - and that was WHY he was dating a junior!!!!
Now, occasionally, there are Caesar and Cleopatra where two people find each other a match in spite of the age difference, but a considerate older partner should be careful and considerate - and as other commentators have noted - NOT be offended at the suggestion that he could be something else - because it's good that the parents care.
...and dude, that 50 year old man is a major creeper! Even if it's not a sexual thing, he's not well adjusted.
...and oh, just reading John Douglas's chapter, "Candy from Strangers" (Journey Into Darkness), there was a 11yr old child gymnast in Toronto, Alison Parrott, who was raped and murdered after she met up with someone who said he's some kind of official photographer. Douglas notes that the pedophile probably didn't expect the girl to show up alone, he was probably hoping to take some photographs that he'll keep for private use. When Alison showed up alone - that further aided his delusion that she was mature.
Please please do not leave that 13 yr old Alone with his admirer! Maybe it's not sexual, but what if it was? The safer sane middleground - supervised contact.
Nope, looking back, that older boy, who approached me, was way more immature than the boys and girls in my class - and that was WHY he was dating a junior!!!!
Now, occasionally, there are Caesar and Cleopatra where two people find each other a match in spite of the age difference, but a considerate older partner should be careful and considerate - and as other commentators have noted - NOT be offended at the suggestion that he could be something else - because it's good that the parents care.
...and dude, that 50 year old man is a major creeper! Even if it's not a sexual thing, he's not well adjusted.
...and oh, just reading John Douglas's chapter, "Candy from Strangers" (Journey Into Darkness), there was a 11yr old child gymnast in Toronto, Alison Parrott, who was raped and murdered after she met up with someone who said he's some kind of official photographer. Douglas notes that the pedophile probably didn't expect the girl to show up alone, he was probably hoping to take some photographs that he'll keep for private use. When Alison showed up alone - that further aided his delusion that she was mature.
Please please do not leave that 13 yr old Alone with his admirer! Maybe it's not sexual, but what if it was? The safer sane middleground - supervised contact.
218
I'm not addressing this situation. I'm just writing to say that I have enjoyed your thinking and and columns for years. I am not gay nor do I care wherher a person is...you be you, I'll be me and we'll all be happy.
It is wrong to be judgemental about others for their sexuality, race or most other reasons.
You give positive voice to that and thank you for doing so in an articulate and outspoken manner.
best to you,
p
It is wrong to be judgemental about others for their sexuality, race or most other reasons.
You give positive voice to that and thank you for doing so in an articulate and outspoken manner.
best to you,
p
219
@215, I've just read the comment you meant, and I think there's a good chance of you being right. There are various kinds of linguists that wouldn't fit the profile you drew (the Chomskyan type, more of an armchair theoretician who wrongly thinks s/he's doing mathematics, jumps to mind), but my kind -- fieldworkers who describe little known languages -- does. In my field work, I've seen things that most people would find pretty shocking, and yet were quite normal in a given culture (a nurse I met once was so dismayed to see a four(?)-year-old boy obvioulsy drunk, and even more dismayed when she realized it was the little boy's mother who had made him drink; to the nurse it seemed like an obvious case of abuse, not so to that mother, or to other mothers in the same village).
It is a pity that this may lead to communication breakdowns; I still think that was a topic worth thinking about. But yes, I can see your point here.
Since you chose mydriasis as your name, I had thought you were a medical doctor, or studying to be one. I suppose that's what caused your specific de-sensitization?
It is a pity that this may lead to communication breakdowns; I still think that was a topic worth thinking about. But yes, I can see your point here.
Since you chose mydriasis as your name, I had thought you were a medical doctor, or studying to be one. I suppose that's what caused your specific de-sensitization?
220
@209(Crinoline), you're welcome. It's an interesting topic. (After writing that, I'm almost convinced someone should take up this topic and write a dissertation on it; say, a binational student could compare violent metaphors in English and in his/her own culture. Maybe someone has even done that already, I don't know.)
221
The age-gap thing is a hairy issue, because age gaps are such common things to fetishize (on either side, whether one is attracted to older or younger people), and also because they can get weird pretty easily, but definitely don't necessarily have to be.
I have a BS double-standard in my head regarding significant age gaps (over the age of consent), because, as someone in my mid-20's, it creeps me out to think sexually about anyone even up to age 22, but even when I was 18, I was attracted to much older women. I would definitely have hooked up with or dated a woman in her 40's (or possibly upward of that), given the opportunity back then, but now that I'm 26, I would be wary of the hypothetical, say, 35-50 year-olds who would've theoretically dated that 18-year-old me. Is that fair? Probably not. The 18-year-old me would have been thrilled (and grateful). However, I never did date have any involvement with someone 30+ until I was 23, and, even then, the age gap was relatively small, considering my taste. I do have friends, though, who dated people in their late 30's or early 40's when they were in their very early 20's, and those relationships are healthy ones that are still going strong.
However, I do think it's different when the 18 year-old is still in high school. There's significant growing up that happens upon leaving high school and being able to live a more adult life. Because most 18-year-olds (at least in this country) are still basically living a teen-age existence until they graduate, that ups the potential creepy factor for anyone significantly older who is involved with them romantically or sexually. Not that it's always creepy or has a negative impact, but I can see why others are warranted in being wary about those situations - particularly parents. It seems like a significantly older adult could easily take advantage of or manipulate a still-in-high-school 18-year-old, because that 18-year-old, even if mature, likely hasn't gone through many of the cultural adjustments into adulthood yet and is still naive about plenty. If I ever did start being attracted to younger women, I'd at least, personally, not go there with an 18-year-old until they were well out of high school. But, again... easy for me to say, since younger is not what I go after.
More...
I have a BS double-standard in my head regarding significant age gaps (over the age of consent), because, as someone in my mid-20's, it creeps me out to think sexually about anyone even up to age 22, but even when I was 18, I was attracted to much older women. I would definitely have hooked up with or dated a woman in her 40's (or possibly upward of that), given the opportunity back then, but now that I'm 26, I would be wary of the hypothetical, say, 35-50 year-olds who would've theoretically dated that 18-year-old me. Is that fair? Probably not. The 18-year-old me would have been thrilled (and grateful). However, I never did date have any involvement with someone 30+ until I was 23, and, even then, the age gap was relatively small, considering my taste. I do have friends, though, who dated people in their late 30's or early 40's when they were in their very early 20's, and those relationships are healthy ones that are still going strong.
However, I do think it's different when the 18 year-old is still in high school. There's significant growing up that happens upon leaving high school and being able to live a more adult life. Because most 18-year-olds (at least in this country) are still basically living a teen-age existence until they graduate, that ups the potential creepy factor for anyone significantly older who is involved with them romantically or sexually. Not that it's always creepy or has a negative impact, but I can see why others are warranted in being wary about those situations - particularly parents. It seems like a significantly older adult could easily take advantage of or manipulate a still-in-high-school 18-year-old, because that 18-year-old, even if mature, likely hasn't gone through many of the cultural adjustments into adulthood yet and is still naive about plenty. If I ever did start being attracted to younger women, I'd at least, personally, not go there with an 18-year-old until they were well out of high school. But, again... easy for me to say, since younger is not what I go after.
222
Ya know.... I think ... I THINK I'd do what you advise if I were in those situations. But it sure is good to read this and find affirmation for what I think I'd do.
223
My,
No, it's true. In history and in myth the wise have been the old. And the elders led the society.
What, you think you've been hatched into a new world?
You keep saying you'll stop responding. But you don't.
No, it's true. In history and in myth the wise have been the old. And the elders led the society.
What, you think you've been hatched into a new world?
You keep saying you'll stop responding. But you don't.
224
Some old people are wise. You are not one of them. From the looks of your behaviour now, you will get old and shriviled and still continue to be a bully on the internet. Sad, really.
Regardless of whether ot not you were telling a pseudo-truth, and an oversimplified one at that, it was still a non-sequitor, and unwelcome. Much like most of your behaviours.
I do tend to respond to whoever addresses me, against my better judgement, yes. If you wish to not hear from me, you're more than welcome to stop your piss-poor attempts at getting under my skin. As I said, I'm willing to wait until you do.
Regardless of whether ot not you were telling a pseudo-truth, and an oversimplified one at that, it was still a non-sequitor, and unwelcome. Much like most of your behaviours.
I do tend to respond to whoever addresses me, against my better judgement, yes. If you wish to not hear from me, you're more than welcome to stop your piss-poor attempts at getting under my skin. As I said, I'm willing to wait until you do.
225
@210, don't despise a good brain. I've met my share of old people who should be wise given their age but simply weren't. Unfortunately, simply having had the time to learn the lessons of life doesn't mean they were learned.
226
It is not entirely uncommon for either gay males or straight females to see men younger than 30 or thereabouts as boys, not real men, and to deliberately seek out older partners because they genuinely find them more attractive.
227
Dan, I read through the comments and back through your opinion on OCD. I understand and, in the abstract, share the skepticism about the relationship. But I have problems with your approach.
I'd advise OCD's father to have the main conversation with his son, not the older man. He should make the following points to his son:
1. You're still in high school, and you've been there since you were 12, if we count junior high. By its nature, high school is much more restrictive than adult life. It's no surprise that a relationship with someone in his 30s would represent a quantum leap in your freedom, and an escape from the shackles of school and childhood.
But, son, you need to step back and try to understand what you're feeling: probably not love, but the thrill of a complete transformation of life away from the childhood you've been in. What you're not focusing on is the risk that this relationship might sidetrack you in ways that you can't yet perceive.
You still have a lot of learning to do in all kinds of ways, and at the very least you ought to think hard about whether spending your emotional time with someone so much older will deprive you of an incredibly important phase: your 20s.
In the meantime, I'd ask you to take this very slow until after you graduate from high school. The fact that he'd pursue a high school student is a big warning flag that suggests that he's not so much into you as he is interested in what you represent: the innocence of a high school kid. I urge you to commit to nothing until you're out of school.
Along those lines, son, how much interest is he showing in your high school life? If that part of you -- the details of your school life -- is a big deal for him, it might suggest that he's not on the up and up. One more reason to go slow until you are out of high school.
2. If you do continue it, at the very least do not let the relationship keep you from preparing for the next phase of life, career-wise: the need to go to college. If this guy in any way tries to steer you away from that, it should be a triple red flag, a real warning bell in the night, and something you should talk to me about.
3. What is the fella's relationship history? Does he have a track record of other relationships with people your age? Insist on speaking with his ex-parters. If he won't make them available, that's at the very least a strong caution sign.
Finally, Dan, it is obvious that you are not just skeptical but utterly dead-set against the relationship, your fig-leaf qualifiers notwithstanding. So is OCD's father. Given what each of you wrote, I can't see how the 31-year-old could ever assuage your doubts. Therefore, I don't see anything to be gained by the confrontation you recommend.
These threats, however hyperbolic they might be, show that you, Dan, are treating both OCD's son and his lover as cartoons -- the old guy and the high school kid -- rather than in three dimensions. It's forgivable with the 31-year-old, but with OCD's son this sort of two-dimensional thinking could destroy their relationship.
Bottom line: OCD (and you) need to think more carefully and more creatively. Your fan club loves you, Dan, but I'm inclined to agree with those who are telling you that fame 'n fortune might be going to your head. A little more humility wouldn't be a bad idea.
More...
I'd advise OCD's father to have the main conversation with his son, not the older man. He should make the following points to his son:
1. You're still in high school, and you've been there since you were 12, if we count junior high. By its nature, high school is much more restrictive than adult life. It's no surprise that a relationship with someone in his 30s would represent a quantum leap in your freedom, and an escape from the shackles of school and childhood.
But, son, you need to step back and try to understand what you're feeling: probably not love, but the thrill of a complete transformation of life away from the childhood you've been in. What you're not focusing on is the risk that this relationship might sidetrack you in ways that you can't yet perceive.
You still have a lot of learning to do in all kinds of ways, and at the very least you ought to think hard about whether spending your emotional time with someone so much older will deprive you of an incredibly important phase: your 20s.
In the meantime, I'd ask you to take this very slow until after you graduate from high school. The fact that he'd pursue a high school student is a big warning flag that suggests that he's not so much into you as he is interested in what you represent: the innocence of a high school kid. I urge you to commit to nothing until you're out of school.
Along those lines, son, how much interest is he showing in your high school life? If that part of you -- the details of your school life -- is a big deal for him, it might suggest that he's not on the up and up. One more reason to go slow until you are out of high school.
2. If you do continue it, at the very least do not let the relationship keep you from preparing for the next phase of life, career-wise: the need to go to college. If this guy in any way tries to steer you away from that, it should be a triple red flag, a real warning bell in the night, and something you should talk to me about.
3. What is the fella's relationship history? Does he have a track record of other relationships with people your age? Insist on speaking with his ex-parters. If he won't make them available, that's at the very least a strong caution sign.
Finally, Dan, it is obvious that you are not just skeptical but utterly dead-set against the relationship, your fig-leaf qualifiers notwithstanding. So is OCD's father. Given what each of you wrote, I can't see how the 31-year-old could ever assuage your doubts. Therefore, I don't see anything to be gained by the confrontation you recommend.
These threats, however hyperbolic they might be, show that you, Dan, are treating both OCD's son and his lover as cartoons -- the old guy and the high school kid -- rather than in three dimensions. It's forgivable with the 31-year-old, but with OCD's son this sort of two-dimensional thinking could destroy their relationship.
Bottom line: OCD (and you) need to think more carefully and more creatively. Your fan club loves you, Dan, but I'm inclined to agree with those who are telling you that fame 'n fortune might be going to your head. A little more humility wouldn't be a bad idea.
228
I'd tend to agree with Mr. Savage, "One Concerned Dad."
But I'd also want to emphasize that while a relationship like that might deserve extra scrutiny, it's also possible that the older guy isn't a creep, and that there isn't something fishy going on.
I'm thirteen years older than my husband. We met when he was nineteen and I was thirty-one. He does find older guys attractive (I don't particularly find younger guys attractive, but he and I hit it off). He was very mature for his age, and we've always had a very good, very equal relationship.
When our mutual friends gave me a hard time, or accused me of being a "cradle robber," my husband came up with the response "He's not a cradle robber, I'm a grave robber."
But I _have_ seen a lot of older folks that just seem to want someone younger because they feel they can have some kind of power over them, and I'm kind of uncomfortable with that. And yes, sometimes, an older person wants a relationship with a younger person because they want to cash in on their relative inexperience. That does happen.
There's nothing wrong with voicing your concerns to your son, and looking out for him, even if he is entitled to make his own decisions (and maybe mistakes).
Your fears may prove unnecessary, but that doesn't mean they're unjustifiable.
But I'd also want to emphasize that while a relationship like that might deserve extra scrutiny, it's also possible that the older guy isn't a creep, and that there isn't something fishy going on.
I'm thirteen years older than my husband. We met when he was nineteen and I was thirty-one. He does find older guys attractive (I don't particularly find younger guys attractive, but he and I hit it off). He was very mature for his age, and we've always had a very good, very equal relationship.
When our mutual friends gave me a hard time, or accused me of being a "cradle robber," my husband came up with the response "He's not a cradle robber, I'm a grave robber."
But I _have_ seen a lot of older folks that just seem to want someone younger because they feel they can have some kind of power over them, and I'm kind of uncomfortable with that. And yes, sometimes, an older person wants a relationship with a younger person because they want to cash in on their relative inexperience. That does happen.
There's nothing wrong with voicing your concerns to your son, and looking out for him, even if he is entitled to make his own decisions (and maybe mistakes).
Your fears may prove unnecessary, but that doesn't mean they're unjustifiable.
229
Dan, you're totally off-base in your advice to OCD. Your assumption that there is something wrong with a 13 year age difference is totally ageist and culturally biased. The Greek ideal was an older mentor-lover (erastes) and and late adolescent beloved (eromenos), and this age-differentiated pattern of male-male relationships continues to be the norm from Japan to the Mediterranean. You are also ignoring that fact that many younger men prefer older lovers--just because that's not your taste doesn't make it dangerous or wrong. Time to re-examine your assumptions Dan.
230
229. In that same culture a late adolescent would've already worked for several years to support themselves. Really, adolescent is a misnomer given that adolescence is a fairly recent social construct.
Which just goes to show that ancient Greece isn't 21st century America and it's messed up to try to apply the standards and mores of the one to the other.
Which just goes to show that ancient Greece isn't 21st century America and it's messed up to try to apply the standards and mores of the one to the other.
231
Dan, I recently turned 19 and I have been dating my boyfriend for about 8 months and we are doing really good. I just want to know if this is normal... we have been dating for 8 months and he wants to try and have anal sex. I am really scared to. I have always heard that it hurts and that it is also very dangerous. I want him to be happy but when we have sex he always tries too but i pull away then he goes soft and doesnt want to continue to have sex. Is it okay or normal that i dont want too have anal? Because i dont want our ex life to vanish just because i wont have anal. How do I get over the fact that i dont want too?
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