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Hooking Up
April 25, 2012
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Joe Newton
Is it possible for a hookup to turn into a relationship?
Hoping One Person Enters
A hookup is a relationship, HOPE. It may be a short-term relationship, but it's a relationship regardless.
And, yes, a short-term hookup can turn into a long-term relationship, HOPE, but not if you're treating your hookups like shit (because they're only hookups!) and not if you're willing to let the people you hook up with treat you like shit (because you're only a hookup). Treat your hookups like people you might actually see again—like human beings with human feelings, not just human holes and/or poles—and you might actually see them again.
You might even wind up in a long-term relationship.
Now, sometimes people hook up with strangers precisely because they wanna have sex with someone they don't know and don't expect to see again. And that's not always a bad idea: Having sex with someone who you don't expect to see again can be very liberating. A girl who can't let herself go with a guy she's dating—maybe she fears being slut- or nympho-shamed by a boyfriend—will grind the dick off a hookup. And it can be easier to ask someone you don't expect to see again to do something kinky. Say a straight boy has always wanted a girl to put him in her panties and peg his ass. He could ask a girlfriend to do that for him, sure, but the stakes are higher. What if she freaks out and dumps him, and blabs to her friends—and his—about why she dumped him?
People who divide the fuckable world into those they care about (and can't open up to sexually) and those they don't care about (and can open up to sexually but won't date) wind up having awesome sex with people they don't know and lousy sex with people they marry. That's not a good strategy for anyone interested in a successful—and sexually fulfilling—long-term relationship.
So here's what you should do, HOPE: Be uninhibited with your hookups while treating them like people you might actually see again, and insist on being treated that way in return. Don't hook up with people who treat you like shit; don't treat the people you hook up with like shit. Even if you know you're not going to see someone again—maybe they're not someone you would date, or circumstances are such that you couldn't date them even if you wanted to (business trip, European vacation, spring break, etc.)—treat your hookups with kindness, respect, and gratitude.
Finally, HOPE, some people treat hookups like shit—only after they've come, natch—because they want their hookups to understand that they're not interested in a relationship. That's not just assholery, assholes, it's completely unnecessary assholery. If someone was kind enough to suck your dick or fuck your brains out—if someone hooked up with your ass—a little kindness and consideration isn't too much to ask. If you're worried that your hookup might misinterpret "kindness and consideration" for "I want to be with you forever," tell them—gently and directly—that you're not interested in a relationship.
Straight guy here. For the first time in my life, I am with someone who understands how much my work is a part of who I am. (I travel for research and come home and agonize over writing it up.) We have a caring and affectionate relationship. She told me at the start that she has never had an orgasm and she didn't believe in masturbation. I knew then that the sex would be vanilla, but I didn't realize that a year later, it would be more vanilla and less frequent. I'm going out of my mind. In the early months, we discussed open relationships. Her view was that she wasn't interested, but if I cheated it would be fine as long as she never found out. At the time, it sounded like a trap; now it sounds like an option. Help.
Sex Too Underwhelming Can't Kontinue
Since an honest open relationship is off the table, STUCK, I'm gonna urge you to DTMFA. (I'm not saying your girlfriend is an MF—heavens no—but DTMFA is the term of art around here.) I'm thinking you'll have an easier time getting a girl who likes sex to understand how important your work is to you than you'll have getting this girl to understand how important sex is to you. You and your current girlfriend simply aren't sexually compatible, STUCK, and sexual compatibility matters when you're picking a sex partner. Duh.
DTMFA.
I am a girl and I am stuck. My boyfriend and I have been dating for nine months, and I only recently told him I can squirt. When we would have sex before, I would tell him to stop before I came because I didn't want to squirt. Now that he knows, he thinks it's really hot that I can and wants me to do it. But I can't seem to get to that point anymore. I have a vibrator, and when I masturbate, I can squirt no problem. But even with me, or him, stimulating my clit while having sex, I just can't do it and I don't know why.
What Should I Do?
You should relax.
I'm not saying that you'll squirt the next time you fuck your boyfriend if you can just relax, WSID, but you'll get there sooner if you relax about whether or not you're squirting.
And let's remember why you weren't squirting with the boyfriend: You were worried that he might react negatively or think it was gross. Not squirting was something you were doing for him. Now that you know he's into it, you want to squirt for him.
Stop thinking about him, WSID, and start thinking about yourself.
You trained your body not to come when you were with your boyfriend, and it's going to take some time to undo that training. But if you can squirt when you masturbate alone, WSID, you can squirt with your boyfriend. And here's how you can get there: Masturbate with your boyfriend in the house but not in your room. Then do it with him in the room but not in the bed with you—and, hey, put a blindfold on him if you're self-conscious about him watching you. Then masturbate with him in the bed with you blindfolded. Then masturbate with him in the bed with you not blindfolded. Then masturbate with him in the bed and not blindfolded and touching you, then with him in the bed holding you, then with him in the bed helping you.
Relax, enjoy, have fun, and you'll get there, WSID, I promise.
The advice you gave to TUSH—the gay teenager worried because he and his boyfriend weren't any good at gay sex—isn't exclusive to the gay young'uns. Most of us don't start with the discipline of practice and communication often required for mutually successful sex. My first attempts, as a virgin male with a virgin female, were hilariously awkward. Nothing worked, nothing fit. Fifteen years later, with a combined 30 years of experience, we hooked up again for one of our best-ever sexual encounters. Please let the gay kids know they're not at all alone in this crazy game of sex. Like anything worthwhile, it takes time and effort and practice to get good at it.
Only Learning Doth Make A Notch
Thanks for sharing, OLDMAN.
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1
I agreed with pretty much everything except there was one thing that stuck out to me.
"For the first time in my life, I am with someone who understands how much my work is a part of who I am. (I travel for research and come home and agonize over writing it up.)"
Am I the only one that read that as a euphemism for "I'm not around a whole lot, and distracted by work when I am around?" Might be the reason the sex is cooled off. I mean, it's borderline cliche that workaholics aren't great at being present/attentive significant others.
Plus if he/she is old enough to have job in research (late 20's at minimum right?) and has struggled to meet someone who "understands how much my work is a part of who I am".. that to me suggests someone who may in fact be in the best of all possible relationships.
"For the first time in my life, I am with someone who understands how much my work is a part of who I am. (I travel for research and come home and agonize over writing it up.)"
Am I the only one that read that as a euphemism for "I'm not around a whole lot, and distracted by work when I am around?" Might be the reason the sex is cooled off. I mean, it's borderline cliche that workaholics aren't great at being present/attentive significant others.
Plus if he/she is old enough to have job in research (late 20's at minimum right?) and has struggled to meet someone who "understands how much my work is a part of who I am".. that to me suggests someone who may in fact be in the best of all possible relationships.
2
Two of today's letters resonated with me. First of all I have been with a hook-up for 23 years now married for 10 of those years) so yes it can lead to a great relationship. Second one - I can only really "squirt" on my own. It has occasionally happened with my partner but not when I am thinking about it or want it to happen.
3
As a generally rule of thumb, if your girlfriend has no interest in sex whatsoever, you can anticipate that sex will get less frequent over time, and factor that in when deciding to continue your relationship.
This is assuming, of course, that there is no curable medical reason for her anorgasmia, and the sex is lackluster despite your best efforts.
This is assuming, of course, that there is no curable medical reason for her anorgasmia, and the sex is lackluster despite your best efforts.
4
Great advice to hooking up. I always tell the men I meet that I am not interested in a relationship. I have been having fantastic sex for years. some of the men Ihave been having sex with for years Just a word of caution be safe, and ALWAYS let someone know who u are with and where you are
5
Sometimes women say things they don't really mean in the beginning of a relationship in order to seem cooler, kinkier, or sexier than they really are. I did it too when I was younger, and later had to backtrack on a few things. The guy shouldn't think the girl was ever actually okay with him cheating. Breaking up does seem like the best option.
@1 may have a point. I'm in a graduate program with a lot of people whose research is their life. Good for them, but I would rather spend my evenings with my husband, my friends, even my cats. Their obsession with their work is deeply unsexy in my view (not to mention remarkably antisocial at times). The LW might need to back off of his research if finding/maintaining a romantic relationship is a priority. If not, well, he wouldn't be the first researcher to make that sacrifice.
@1 may have a point. I'm in a graduate program with a lot of people whose research is their life. Good for them, but I would rather spend my evenings with my husband, my friends, even my cats. Their obsession with their work is deeply unsexy in my view (not to mention remarkably antisocial at times). The LW might need to back off of his research if finding/maintaining a romantic relationship is a priority. If not, well, he wouldn't be the first researcher to make that sacrifice.
6
I have to agree with @1. If you're looking for a partner who is into sex, but then you're not around (physically, or emotionally) most of the time, the relationship still wouldn't work, at least not without being open for both parties.
7
how come its always a straight guy who wants it up the arse all top secret like? do i detect hetero hate here?
8
STUCK, I have to say, your girlfriend is either a) a complete idiot, or b) a complete prude.
First, the "complete idiot" analysis: gee, maybe if she believed in masturbation, then she might have had a few orgasms, at which point she would understand the benefits of masturbation - and also the benefits of sex with you. Seriously, duh.
Second, the "complete prude" analysis: "didn't believe in masturbation?" Srsly? It sounds like she has refused to get any good at sex because then she might actually want it.
On the other hand, it also sounds like you bear a certain amount of responsibility for the situation. The only thing that is going to turn her around is getting her to understand the value of a good orgasm herself, but you seem more interested in a) your work, and b)looking elsewhere, than in getting her to see the light, which will take some fairly serious investment in quality time.
Still, all things considered...complete prude is my guess. (And, fair warning, "it would be fine as long as I never found out" is code for "if I do find out I will make your life an entirely new circle of Hell.") Prognosis: unlikely. DTMFA.
First, the "complete idiot" analysis: gee, maybe if she believed in masturbation, then she might have had a few orgasms, at which point she would understand the benefits of masturbation - and also the benefits of sex with you. Seriously, duh.
Second, the "complete prude" analysis: "didn't believe in masturbation?" Srsly? It sounds like she has refused to get any good at sex because then she might actually want it.
On the other hand, it also sounds like you bear a certain amount of responsibility for the situation. The only thing that is going to turn her around is getting her to understand the value of a good orgasm herself, but you seem more interested in a) your work, and b)looking elsewhere, than in getting her to see the light, which will take some fairly serious investment in quality time.
Still, all things considered...complete prude is my guess. (And, fair warning, "it would be fine as long as I never found out" is code for "if I do find out I will make your life an entirely new circle of Hell.") Prognosis: unlikely. DTMFA.
10
My message got cut off ... take 2 ...
@8 That's a whole lot of judgement for someone you've never met.
@8 That's a whole lot of judgement for someone you've never met.
11
My Fiance and I were a hook-up! We were each other's booty calls and we're still going strong 4 years later. We'll be married in August so I would have to say it's a great way to start a relationship :-D!
12
It's not always the girls with the issues. I am completely fine masturbating and my boyfriend and I used to have a pretty healthy sex life, just seems I want it more than him... I've always heard it being the other way around, guess not.
13
@12 I've been there before- many women have (it's waaay more common than you'd think. It makes you feel deeply unattractive and unwanted. I'd really suggest breaking up. Life's too short to spend praying for what someone deigns to give. Just wanted to tell you that I've been there, left there, and I'm so glad that I did.
14
Yeah, not a fan of "understands my how important my work is" comment. Like traveling for research and writing papers is sooo haaard for your girlfriends to wrap their brains around. I'm with 1: this guy is a workaholic and feels passionate about his work, and women go into it not realizing that means "you're second to my work."
There will be a woman who will be okay with that (perhaps a fellow researcher who is herself engrossed in and obsessed with her field of study), and enjoys sex whenever you both decide to actually get to it. If you're hoping a girl will not stray and understand you and fuck your brains out when you're around and deciding to take a writer's break, well that sounds unlikely to me. And it doesn't sound too fulfilling for any future ladyfriend either.
Dan's right.
There will be a woman who will be okay with that (perhaps a fellow researcher who is herself engrossed in and obsessed with her field of study), and enjoys sex whenever you both decide to actually get to it. If you're hoping a girl will not stray and understand you and fuck your brains out when you're around and deciding to take a writer's break, well that sounds unlikely to me. And it doesn't sound too fulfilling for any future ladyfriend either.
Dan's right.
15
Can somebody PLEASE come up with better terminology for 'squirt.' Ick.
I don't mean that 'squirting' (gah gah gah) is in itself icky. I mean why such an icky verb choice to describe such a desirable outcome? It sounds like trying to get mustard out of a bottle or something.
Ejaculate - jettison - gush - burst: all fine synonyms. Even 'spurt.' PLEASE SOMEBODY.
I don't mean that 'squirting' (gah gah gah) is in itself icky. I mean why such an icky verb choice to describe such a desirable outcome? It sounds like trying to get mustard out of a bottle or something.
Ejaculate - jettison - gush - burst: all fine synonyms. Even 'spurt.' PLEASE SOMEBODY.
16
What struck me about STUCK's letter is that he didn't say ONE WORD about what he's done to try to make sex fulfilling for his not-interested-in-sex partner. Or even mentioned whether she's had an orgasm now! Now, maybe he just didn't mention it, or maybe Dan edited it out. But if he hasn't actually made the effort, then it might be worth it. If he has, then Dan's advice is right.
Then again, I agree with those saying that his words about why he likes her raise flags, too, so maybe she'd be better off without him....
Then again, I agree with those saying that his words about why he likes her raise flags, too, so maybe she'd be better off without him....
17
@16 makes a good point, too! No comment on how he has tried to open her up to new things, or if he's stated any of his needs or asked her if she's satisfied.
More information is needed before I can judge this fellow.
More information is needed before I can judge this fellow.
18
@8 I think it might be more likely that she's asexual, but unaware that the notion of it even exists, than she's either of the two options you presented.
If she's never been into masturbating, it's likely that she only has sex with partners because it's assumed that sex is part of a relationship, even though she doesn't enjoy it.
Of course, we don't really know much more about this woman than the limited information her partner provides.
If she's never been into masturbating, it's likely that she only has sex with partners because it's assumed that sex is part of a relationship, even though she doesn't enjoy it.
Of course, we don't really know much more about this woman than the limited information her partner provides.
19
I and my partner were a hookup at first. Hookup turned into affair but we wanted to end it when I left Canada 6 months later... luckily we were really bad in ending it and now I'm happily married and prepare my permanent move to Canada...
and my only relationship before was a hookup first too. I even refused to give him my number - but we met again, hooked up some more and it turned into a relationship that lasted 4 years and we are still friends
and my only relationship before was a hookup first too. I even refused to give him my number - but we met again, hooked up some more and it turned into a relationship that lasted 4 years and we are still friends
20
@7: Gay guys would presumably be open about wanting the same thing, if they were open about being gay.
21
If you do treat your hookups with kindness and consideration when you meet the first time you will not lack for sex partners because they will be much more likely to contact you again. I've had a lot of hookups over the years and most of them have ended up contacting me at least one more time, and some have turned into long term affairs. If you try to give them the best sexual experience you can, even knowing you may never see them again, and are friendly and appealing, chances are you will hear from them again. At that point, it's up to you whether to see them again or not, but it's always nice to have a lot of options. Plus, after I've had sex with someone, I like for them to think "hey, he's a nice guy", not "he's an asshole".
If you do treat your hookups with kindness and consideration when you meet the first time you will not lack for sex partners because they will be much more likely to contact you again. I've had a lot of hookups over the years and most of them have ended up contacting me at least one more time, and some have turned into long term affairs. If you try to give them the best sexual experience you can, even knowing you may never see them again, and are friendly and appealing, chances are you will hear from them again. At that point, it's up to you whether to see them again or not, but it's always nice to have a lot of options. Plus, after I've had sex with someone, I like for them to think "hey, he's a nice guy", not "he's an asshole".
22
@8 regarding STUCK
I know you're trying to help the guy see that maybe the relationship isn't working out, but you were really insulting. There is nothing wrong with having a low libido. Some people just don't want sex and it is not a black mark on their intelligence.
STUCK, one thing to think about is the possibility that she isn't enjoying herself in bed. I knew many girls who never masturbated but had very active sex lives. It's possible that the two of you just aren't syncing, you aren't fulfilling her needs, or both. If you don't already, learn to eat pussy, start fingering her, and learn where the g-spot is. Also, get a vibrator for her, help her find her clit, and finger/fuck her. Some women who have never masturbated have never found their clitoris. For many it's a watershed moment.
Good luck STUCK. Try to spice up your sex life and make it more fun for her. If it doesn't fly, then bring up open relationships one last time. You might even benefit from showing her Dan's video where he discusses a married couple who don't sexually connect. He suggests an open relationship. But he does so without making it seem like openness delegitimizes the relationship and I feel that that is her fear.
If sex is important but if improving the quality and openness is off the table, then DTMFA. I don't know what your research field is, but I recommend looking into women who are in similar situations as you. I'm in Experimental Psych and had a wonderful fling with a woman in the Biology dept before I met my gf. There are many women out there conducting research and understand the life of a scientist. Go get em!
I know you're trying to help the guy see that maybe the relationship isn't working out, but you were really insulting. There is nothing wrong with having a low libido. Some people just don't want sex and it is not a black mark on their intelligence.
STUCK, one thing to think about is the possibility that she isn't enjoying herself in bed. I knew many girls who never masturbated but had very active sex lives. It's possible that the two of you just aren't syncing, you aren't fulfilling her needs, or both. If you don't already, learn to eat pussy, start fingering her, and learn where the g-spot is. Also, get a vibrator for her, help her find her clit, and finger/fuck her. Some women who have never masturbated have never found their clitoris. For many it's a watershed moment.
Good luck STUCK. Try to spice up your sex life and make it more fun for her. If it doesn't fly, then bring up open relationships one last time. You might even benefit from showing her Dan's video where he discusses a married couple who don't sexually connect. He suggests an open relationship. But he does so without making it seem like openness delegitimizes the relationship and I feel that that is her fear.
If sex is important but if improving the quality and openness is off the table, then DTMFA. I don't know what your research field is, but I recommend looking into women who are in similar situations as you. I'm in Experimental Psych and had a wonderful fling with a woman in the Biology dept before I met my gf. There are many women out there conducting research and understand the life of a scientist. Go get em!
23
The only way my ex ever squirted with me was by tying her up and pressing the vibrator on her clit long past orgasm. Even that didn't work every time.
24
WSID,
To start with, how about getting a nice thick towel or 2, and get used to using it when you go solo and squirt. Next, make sure your SO understands that you won't squirt every time, and will still enjoy PIV(+?). Go someplace for a getaway, and have fun. When the time comes, and you get to where you hold back, just don't. Make a mess, and watch while your SO doesn't get disgusted (he will freak out though; probably some kind of touchdown dance, etc.) and will even sleep in the wet spot if you didn't have time to get the towels.
When my wife squirts, sometimes it's a gush, most times it's trickle. She knows how much I enjoy her letting go on me, so there can be a performance anxiety component sabotaging the proceedings. But the biggest obstacle is always too much on her mind. Just let go, a lot or a little, and enjoy sharing all of yourself.
Peace.
To start with, how about getting a nice thick towel or 2, and get used to using it when you go solo and squirt. Next, make sure your SO understands that you won't squirt every time, and will still enjoy PIV(+?). Go someplace for a getaway, and have fun. When the time comes, and you get to where you hold back, just don't. Make a mess, and watch while your SO doesn't get disgusted (he will freak out though; probably some kind of touchdown dance, etc.) and will even sleep in the wet spot if you didn't have time to get the towels.
When my wife squirts, sometimes it's a gush, most times it's trickle. She knows how much I enjoy her letting go on me, so there can be a performance anxiety component sabotaging the proceedings. But the biggest obstacle is always too much on her mind. Just let go, a lot or a little, and enjoy sharing all of yourself.
Peace.
25
"If you bring up a subject that is has anything to do with homosexuality he immediately finds a reason to get off the phone." Yeah, and a buttoned-up heterosexual guy might well do the same - *especially* if he believes you think he's queer. You could have got yourseles into a circular argument here.
26
I think Dan was right in telling STUCK to DTMFA if only because I recoiled in horror when he said his gf "doesn't believe in masturbation"! I would imagine she'd have considerable difficulty finding a support network for that...
Oh and btw I'm a gay man who's been treating hookups with respect for 30 years & still no bf (that would probably account for my shock at the masturbation comment...) but hey, to each his bone!
Oh and btw I'm a gay man who's been treating hookups with respect for 30 years & still no bf (that would probably account for my shock at the masturbation comment...) but hey, to each his bone!
30
I have a problem squirting also. It's difficult to let go with my partner because comes inside me every single time so his dick is blocking the entrance I guess you could say. It just makes it difficult for me to finish. What can I do?
31
Wow, people are being really harsh on STUCK's SO. She can only possibly be a complete idiot or a complete prude? Yikes.
Not to point fingers here, but STUCK doesn't exactly sound like an exemplary boyfriend: "I travel for research and come home and agonize over writing it up", makes it sound like even when he is home he is busy, possibly complaining, and stressed. But oh in those few moments when he is not writing or gone he expects her to magically have a high libido and then just wait around while he's gone, twiddling her thumbs?
Most of the women I have met who "don't believe in masturbation" say that because they have not had success with it. They can't get in the mood solo, and that doesn't mean they are broken or a prude.
Not to point fingers here, but STUCK doesn't exactly sound like an exemplary boyfriend: "I travel for research and come home and agonize over writing it up", makes it sound like even when he is home he is busy, possibly complaining, and stressed. But oh in those few moments when he is not writing or gone he expects her to magically have a high libido and then just wait around while he's gone, twiddling her thumbs?
Most of the women I have met who "don't believe in masturbation" say that because they have not had success with it. They can't get in the mood solo, and that doesn't mean they are broken or a prude.
32
I'm almost 40 and I must say that I really understand those comments I hear every now and then that women don't hit their sexual peak until their 30s. There's so much involved in that! A big part of it is what OLDMAN mentioned, which is years of learning what works and what does. Also, there's what @22 mentioned, finding one's clit. There's learning to let go. There's deciding that you're not malfunctional, or wrong for what you want (or if you still feel wrong for it, saying to hell with that and going after it anyway).
33
There's nothing wrong with a hook-up. There's nothing wrong with a long term relationship. There's no reason a hook-up can't turn into a long term relationship, but there is a great deal wrong with lying to yourself and others by saying that you want a hook-up when you're really hoping for a long-term relationship. With very little to go on, that's what I'm afraid HOPE is doing. Alternately, there's lying to yourself by acting like you want a long term relationship when really all you want is a hook-up. Both are a form of assholery.
34
@32: I always heard that a woman didn't hit her sexual peak until 40ish, which was definitely true in my case (well, late 30s). For all your reasons, and then some (I think hormones play a large role in libido and sexual response, and for a variety of reasons, they may be surging starting in the late 30s), I think this is often the case.
@33: Well said. To thine own self (and those with whom you have sex) be true.
@33: Well said. To thine own self (and those with whom you have sex) be true.
35
@7 - That's because that particular kink is considered "gay" and male sexuality is not allowed to be fluid and the 'one drop' rule gets applied. Sure, it's bogus but it definitely makes sense and is a great example of what Dan is talking about.
It's not the kind of kink you can drop on the table in the first two or three dates, and it's very easy to run the risk of developing a great connection followed by rejection, and then acquiring a 'reputation'. And Dan gave an example of one for women as well.
Both the first and second letters really resonated for me - I've been the fool who divided up the fuckable world the way Dan describes, and, like STUCK in letter 2, fallen deeply in love with someone with whom there just was no sexual compatibility (vanilla and bad!) and it's horrible.
I love hearing these happy FB/FWB/hookups that have turned into good, long term relationships.
It's not the kind of kink you can drop on the table in the first two or three dates, and it's very easy to run the risk of developing a great connection followed by rejection, and then acquiring a 'reputation'. And Dan gave an example of one for women as well.
Both the first and second letters really resonated for me - I've been the fool who divided up the fuckable world the way Dan describes, and, like STUCK in letter 2, fallen deeply in love with someone with whom there just was no sexual compatibility (vanilla and bad!) and it's horrible.
I love hearing these happy FB/FWB/hookups that have turned into good, long term relationships.
36
I think, regarding STUCK's SO, that @32 said something really important: "learning to let go". I had this issue with a partner who did believe in masturbation, but was kind of emotionally cut off and so while she'd force herself to go through motions, she wasn't really relaxing and enjoying the sex. So, yeah, again, the resonance with the whole hookup thing.
37
@32 Gamebird,
My wife always brushes off getting a vibrator with "Why do I need that if I've got you?". When we started going out, she was completely inexperienced, and didn't masturbate. Fast forward through marriage and a lot of fun together, and the first time she started working her clit during doggy style was like...I'm at a loss for words. Then she finally relaxed enough to let herself squirt (for years she kept saying something like "What should I do?"). Not surprisingly that was in her mid 30s. And it's gotten better in many ways since. However, what has always remained constant is that little grin or smirk she gets when she really decides to go to town on me in the cowgirl position; heck of a good way to start a sunny spring day!
Being 50 doesn't suck...
Peace.
My wife always brushes off getting a vibrator with "Why do I need that if I've got you?". When we started going out, she was completely inexperienced, and didn't masturbate. Fast forward through marriage and a lot of fun together, and the first time she started working her clit during doggy style was like...I'm at a loss for words. Then she finally relaxed enough to let herself squirt (for years she kept saying something like "What should I do?"). Not surprisingly that was in her mid 30s. And it's gotten better in many ways since. However, what has always remained constant is that little grin or smirk she gets when she really decides to go to town on me in the cowgirl position; heck of a good way to start a sunny spring day!
Being 50 doesn't suck...
Peace.
38
@12-I want sex more often than my husband. He's happy with once or twice a week, I want it three or four times a week.
But I'm perfectly happy with masturbation, because my husband is perfect in other ways. I do have a deep committed relationship with my vibrator now, as well.
The point is if you can be happy with the situation, mismatched sex drives aren't necessarily a deal breaker. We've been together for 13 years. If you are unhappy, though, then it is a deal breaker.
But I'm perfectly happy with masturbation, because my husband is perfect in other ways. I do have a deep committed relationship with my vibrator now, as well.
The point is if you can be happy with the situation, mismatched sex drives aren't necessarily a deal breaker. We've been together for 13 years. If you are unhappy, though, then it is a deal breaker.
39
I wish we knew what STUCK's girlfriend means when she says she doesn't believe in masturbation. That she doesn't believe it exists (like Santa Claus)? That she doesn't believe she'd like it if she tried? That she doesn't believe it's worth the effort?
Sometimes we start with great sex and try to improve a lagging relationship.
Sometimes we start with a great relationship and try to improve the indifferent sex.
But whatever, I think Dan is right. You don't always know whether a relationship is salvageable, but this one has all the signs of one that isn't. The only thing STUCK seems to like about his girlfriend is that she allows him to work all the time. He could get that from a succulent. (I originally wrote houseplant but then realized it would want to be watered.) He doesn't seem to want to work together with her to help her enjoy sex more. He doesn't seem to like spending time with her when he's not working or getting the infrequent vanilla sex. He does call her affectionate and caring, but he could get that from a beagle except they need more care than houseplants.
Sometimes we start with great sex and try to improve a lagging relationship.
Sometimes we start with a great relationship and try to improve the indifferent sex.
But whatever, I think Dan is right. You don't always know whether a relationship is salvageable, but this one has all the signs of one that isn't. The only thing STUCK seems to like about his girlfriend is that she allows him to work all the time. He could get that from a succulent. (I originally wrote houseplant but then realized it would want to be watered.) He doesn't seem to want to work together with her to help her enjoy sex more. He doesn't seem to like spending time with her when he's not working or getting the infrequent vanilla sex. He does call her affectionate and caring, but he could get that from a beagle except they need more care than houseplants.
41
@10: It's an internet advice column. Snap judgements are the order of the day. Get over it.
Based on the letter (which is all I have to go on), her attitude is, in a nutshell, "I've never had an orgasm and I have no interest in finding out how good they are, even if it drastically improves not only my partner's sex life, but mine too." Do you want to try to defend that proposition as sensible?
Various of you mentioning the possibility of her being asexual: yes, that's one possibility. Again, going off the wording of the letter -- I think there's a substantive difference between "I'm not interested in masturbation" and "I don't believe in masturbation" -- it sounds like she is treating it as a moral failing, not merely something that fails to grab her attention.
Those mentioning that he needs to figure out how to be better at making her orgasm: good point, but nobody should be expected to know more about how a person comes than the person herself. He can't read her mind, and he can't jack into her nervous system to gauge her exact responses in real time. She needs to educate herself about her own body before he can learn how she works. That means being willing to play with herself first. Having him experiment on her endlessly is going to be an exercise in frustration for both of them.
Bottom line, however, her attitude seems to be that since she isn't interested in sex, that's just how it's going to be, and hints that she probably will be intolerant if she finds out he is getting those needs met elsewhere that she shows little interest in meeting herself. I have very little patience for that.
Based on the letter (which is all I have to go on), her attitude is, in a nutshell, "I've never had an orgasm and I have no interest in finding out how good they are, even if it drastically improves not only my partner's sex life, but mine too." Do you want to try to defend that proposition as sensible?
Various of you mentioning the possibility of her being asexual: yes, that's one possibility. Again, going off the wording of the letter -- I think there's a substantive difference between "I'm not interested in masturbation" and "I don't believe in masturbation" -- it sounds like she is treating it as a moral failing, not merely something that fails to grab her attention.
Those mentioning that he needs to figure out how to be better at making her orgasm: good point, but nobody should be expected to know more about how a person comes than the person herself. He can't read her mind, and he can't jack into her nervous system to gauge her exact responses in real time. She needs to educate herself about her own body before he can learn how she works. That means being willing to play with herself first. Having him experiment on her endlessly is going to be an exercise in frustration for both of them.
Bottom line, however, her attitude seems to be that since she isn't interested in sex, that's just how it's going to be, and hints that she probably will be intolerant if she finds out he is getting those needs met elsewhere that she shows little interest in meeting herself. I have very little patience for that.
42
I'd be curious to see whether STUCK would be okay with a gf who loved sex and who got plenty of it while he was gone or agonizing over his writing. If so, then there's promise for some fun relationship opportunities. However, if he doesn't like that idea, he should probably stick with the battery-powered types of girlfriends; this way, he knows how to bring the zap back into the relationship when he needs immediate release from his work focus.
43
I had a hook-up that turned into a relationship, we're getting married in June. I'm looking forward to many years of monogamish, GGG, wedded bliss.
The only real problem with going from hook-up to relationship is what to tell people when they ask how you met.
The only real problem with going from hook-up to relationship is what to tell people when they ask how you met.
44
@avast
For a lot of women (and men), sexuality isn't just physical, it's emotional too.
That's what I hear, anyway. I'm a simple creature myself.
But a lot of times people have trouble getting in the mood for partners who are inattentive/absent/etc - it seems to me like this fellow is. See @42's post.
For a lot of women (and men), sexuality isn't just physical, it's emotional too.
That's what I hear, anyway. I'm a simple creature myself.
But a lot of times people have trouble getting in the mood for partners who are inattentive/absent/etc - it seems to me like this fellow is. See @42's post.
45
Oh 41 I beg to differ on one thing... she doesn't need to get to know her own body first in order for someone else to get it. Years ago I really thought that the Os I got from masturbation were clitoral orgasms and the nice friendly exercise I got from intercourse was a vaginal orgasm. Yeah I wasn't coming. I had sex with guys for 12 years... a LOT of sex mind you... before I finally realized I wasn't having orgasms and was deluding myself. I had no idea how to get there. I had no idea what would get me off.
Luckily I found a string of older experienced men who were in their 40s and 50s and had no problem playing "well, let's try this, and this, and see if this works, and if it doesn't, no biggie, maybe you're just not one who does that way, and we'll have fun trying!" with a 20something female desperately in need of proper sex. I had no idea men previously weren't doing oral sex on me properly. I had no idea what I even liked and didn't! (porn does nothing for me. I'm not against it, it just does absolutely *nothing* for me and hence isn't much of a "brainstormer" for me).
Even after that I was still certain I couldn't come from intercourse and I was *fine* with that. And then one day it happened completely on accident(with the guy who was supposed to just be my fuck buddy no less but well... I guess he had the moves like Jagger ;-). I ended up married to the guy (I had sworn I was never getting married again unless it was to the guy who got me off during intercourse... I meant it tongue in cheek!) and it took us another... gosh... 6-7 years before we got it down to knowing just how to do it. It would just happen seemingly randomly and took us forever to figure out how it happened!
She doesn't need to know herself sexually first... but she does need to be open, and he needs to be willing to try.
More...
Luckily I found a string of older experienced men who were in their 40s and 50s and had no problem playing "well, let's try this, and this, and see if this works, and if it doesn't, no biggie, maybe you're just not one who does that way, and we'll have fun trying!" with a 20something female desperately in need of proper sex. I had no idea men previously weren't doing oral sex on me properly. I had no idea what I even liked and didn't! (porn does nothing for me. I'm not against it, it just does absolutely *nothing* for me and hence isn't much of a "brainstormer" for me).
Even after that I was still certain I couldn't come from intercourse and I was *fine* with that. And then one day it happened completely on accident(with the guy who was supposed to just be my fuck buddy no less but well... I guess he had the moves like Jagger ;-). I ended up married to the guy (I had sworn I was never getting married again unless it was to the guy who got me off during intercourse... I meant it tongue in cheek!) and it took us another... gosh... 6-7 years before we got it down to knowing just how to do it. It would just happen seemingly randomly and took us forever to figure out how it happened!
She doesn't need to know herself sexually first... but she does need to be open, and he needs to be willing to try.
46
@44: 100% agreed. I doubt she is getting her emotional relationship needs met either. It sure looks like Letter Writer is a) gone a lot, and then b) immersed in his work when he is home, rather than investing time with his girlfriend, and then c) hinting around that he would like to look elsewhere, rather than investing time with his girlfriend. One wonders whether he is investing in the relationship at all (and why she puts up with that)?
47
Another successful hookup story here: I hooked up with a woman at a party five years ago, and now we've been married for two and a half.
I want to add another benefit to this scenario: you get to figure out if you're sexually compatible with your partner BEFORE you delve into the business of commitment and relationships. I've been on the other end of this, and let me tell you, it sucks to get together with someone who you feel a great emotional connection with only to realize that you are completely sexually incompatible.
I want to add another benefit to this scenario: you get to figure out if you're sexually compatible with your partner BEFORE you delve into the business of commitment and relationships. I've been on the other end of this, and let me tell you, it sucks to get together with someone who you feel a great emotional connection with only to realize that you are completely sexually incompatible.
48
@avast
My guess is that him being away so much makes him less sexually demanding than someone who's around all the time. Maybe she is asexual, or has a healthy but low libido, or has hangups about sex that cause her to avoid it.
@wendy
Thanks for sharing. I'm glad you were finally able to find out what gets you off.
My guess is that him being away so much makes him less sexually demanding than someone who's around all the time. Maybe she is asexual, or has a healthy but low libido, or has hangups about sex that cause her to avoid it.
@wendy
Thanks for sharing. I'm glad you were finally able to find out what gets you off.
49
My,
I'm not surprised you have no emotions involved with your sexuality.
And that you're simple? I'll leave it at that.
I'm not surprised you have no emotions involved with your sexuality.
And that you're simple? I'll leave it at that.
52
47- Hernandez
On the other hand, it sucks to find someone you have a fantastic sexual chemistry with and then find out you have nothing it takes for a successful committed relationship. I'm glad it worked for you. I'm just worried that too many readers will believe it always works like that.
On the other hand, it sucks to find someone you have a fantastic sexual chemistry with and then find out you have nothing it takes for a successful committed relationship. I'm glad it worked for you. I'm just worried that too many readers will believe it always works like that.
53
Crinoline at 33 raises a good point: Hook ups can become relationships (and relationships can become hook ups) but if you're having the hook ups solely because you want to be in a relationship and have become convinced that it's the modern way things work now, the price of admission, it's not. Having a hundred hook ups and hoping one of those partners gets interested in exploring your personality is not the way to go about it.
No context to the letter of course, and perhaps it's someone who can't believe their hook up is becoming a relationship and needs a reality check that they aren't crazy. But somehow it seems wistful, like if HOPE keeps plugging away at the hook ups eventually one of them has to fall in love with HOPE.
No context to the letter of course, and perhaps it's someone who can't believe their hook up is becoming a relationship and needs a reality check that they aren't crazy. But somehow it seems wistful, like if HOPE keeps plugging away at the hook ups eventually one of them has to fall in love with HOPE.
54
@53
I'm with you.
I had a roommate who went about things that way. She always had a front like her hookups were just hookups. But it was painfully obvious she was trying to land a man.
She found one though, so it's definitely possible.
I'm with you.
I had a roommate who went about things that way. She always had a front like her hookups were just hookups. But it was painfully obvious she was trying to land a man.
She found one though, so it's definitely possible.
55
Oh also, I've only started relationships with hookups. I don't really like traditional dating.
@52
Sure, but don't you find it more pleasant to say "let's keep having amazing sex but I wouldn't want to date you" than to say "so turns out I've developed feelings for you, but we have no future as a couple"?
I dunno, maybe that's just me?
@52
Sure, but don't you find it more pleasant to say "let's keep having amazing sex but I wouldn't want to date you" than to say "so turns out I've developed feelings for you, but we have no future as a couple"?
I dunno, maybe that's just me?
56
55-myd-- I don't have enough experience with the binary choices to say which is more pleasant. I am enough of a romantic fool to think both sex and relationship proceeding in lockstep is the way to go.
My happily-ever-after story would go like this. They meet. They go out. They talk and get to know each other. They do that a few times. They kiss. They like it enough to proceed. They go out more. They make out more. They have sex more. They do things like cook, read while sitting on the same couch, sail, swim, watch movies, They have sex. It's wonderful. They talk more. They have sex more. It continues wonderful.
Which is to say that if anything breaks down along the way, they don't have too full an investment in any one part of the relationship, either the sex or the rest. They don't have the heartbreak of giving up a fantastic sex partner if it turns out they can't stand doing anything else together. They don't have the heartbreak of giving up a fantastic everything else partner if it turns out they can't stand the sex together.
My happily-ever-after story would go like this. They meet. They go out. They talk and get to know each other. They do that a few times. They kiss. They like it enough to proceed. They go out more. They make out more. They have sex more. They do things like cook, read while sitting on the same couch, sail, swim, watch movies, They have sex. It's wonderful. They talk more. They have sex more. It continues wonderful.
Which is to say that if anything breaks down along the way, they don't have too full an investment in any one part of the relationship, either the sex or the rest. They don't have the heartbreak of giving up a fantastic sex partner if it turns out they can't stand doing anything else together. They don't have the heartbreak of giving up a fantastic everything else partner if it turns out they can't stand the sex together.
57
As someone who can barely talk to strangers, I'm completely baffled by people who can have sex with them.
I'm not judging, just (like I said) baffled.
I'm not judging, just (like I said) baffled.
58
This week's graphic, with the lock and key, was cute - but I can't figure out how it's related to any of the letters...
59
@ Crin
I figured out where our wires are crossed.
"They don't have the heartbreak of giving up a fantastic sex partner if it turns out they can't stand doing anything else together."
Sex partners I had no romantic interest in were always the norm for me. I didn't give them up just because I didn't want a relationship with them. Why would I? There was one guy I used to see many moons ago who annoyed the crap out of me. But he was cute and the sex was good so I let it slide. If you can't stand doing anything else together... then don't do anything else together. Problem solved.
I figured out where our wires are crossed.
"They don't have the heartbreak of giving up a fantastic sex partner if it turns out they can't stand doing anything else together."
Sex partners I had no romantic interest in were always the norm for me. I didn't give them up just because I didn't want a relationship with them. Why would I? There was one guy I used to see many moons ago who annoyed the crap out of me. But he was cute and the sex was good so I let it slide. If you can't stand doing anything else together... then don't do anything else together. Problem solved.
60
I have friends who met 18 years ago in a bathhouse. The one who was not already my friend said that my friend was the smoothest top he ever had. They've been together 18 years and legally married (in California) since 2008.
Regarding the woman who doesn't believe in masturbation ... what? That's such a heavy statement to go without explanation. What doesn't she believe? Clearly not that it doesn't exist. Does she just not like it herself? Doesn't believe that anyone in a relationship should do it? Thinks that it's wrong for anyone to do, ever? It's such a strange, unfathomable statement. I hope the LW writes in to clarify.
Regarding the woman who doesn't believe in masturbation ... what? That's such a heavy statement to go without explanation. What doesn't she believe? Clearly not that it doesn't exist. Does she just not like it herself? Doesn't believe that anyone in a relationship should do it? Thinks that it's wrong for anyone to do, ever? It's such a strange, unfathomable statement. I hope the LW writes in to clarify.
61
While OLDMAN was not wrong, he missed the point and appropriated by accident.
Mr Married, you seem to be becoming rather more explicit of late, or did I just not notice it before?
This is going to be a brutally long year.
Mr Married, you seem to be becoming rather more explicit of late, or did I just not notice it before?
This is going to be a brutally long year.
64
@53, I agree as well. Mostly it's HOPE's chosen acronym that made me wonder, "Hmm, sounds like this person is crossing their fingers that their hookup will fall in love with them..."
HOPE, a hookup can turn into a long-term relationship, but it's not guaranteed to. If you've been hooking up with someone for a few times and want it to be more, speak up... you might get the answer you're hoping for, or you might not, but even an answer in the negative is better than just pining away.
HOPE, a hookup can turn into a long-term relationship, but it's not guaranteed to. If you've been hooking up with someone for a few times and want it to be more, speak up... you might get the answer you're hoping for, or you might not, but even an answer in the negative is better than just pining away.
65
@61 "This is going to be a brutally long year," is quite a mysterious aside in a comment here, may even have an ominous component, depending on interpretation. Care to share? What's going on, kiddo?
66
am I the only lost soul here reading "cheating is ok as long as I don't find out" as ... well, cheating is ok as long as I don't find out? that's exactly what I have been told by my 12-year partner and I find it so clever that I wonder why did I ever bother with trying to get my guts out in the open where they don't belong. I know the orthodoxy around here is all about getting it out in the open and "talk about it" (yawn), but what if I happen to know that my partner likes secrecy? and appreciates me for being the same way?
what if STUCK's girl just is just not very interested in sexual intimacy and ok if he seeks it elsewhere, but not so self-less and secure that she can take the cheating in the open? I dont see what's wrong with that and SHE SAID IT HERSELF. My advice to STUCK: go for it now that you can! after all SHE SAID IT HERSELF. Or are we going to consider that the poor girl must surely not know what she's saying? now, THAT is offending, not a few fucks around which have been previously authorized.
what if STUCK's girl just is just not very interested in sexual intimacy and ok if he seeks it elsewhere, but not so self-less and secure that she can take the cheating in the open? I dont see what's wrong with that and SHE SAID IT HERSELF. My advice to STUCK: go for it now that you can! after all SHE SAID IT HERSELF. Or are we going to consider that the poor girl must surely not know what she's saying? now, THAT is offending, not a few fucks around which have been previously authorized.
67
am I the only lost soul here reading "cheating is ok as long as I don't find out" as ... well, cheating is ok as long as I don't find out? that's exactly what I have been told by my 12-year partner and I find it so clever that I wonder why did I ever bother with trying to get my guts out in the open where they don't belong. I know the orthodoxy around here is all about getting it out in the open and "talk about it" (yawn), but what if I happen to know that my partner likes secrecy? and appreciates me for being the same way?
what if STUCK's girl just is just not very interested in sexual intimacy and ok if he seeks it elsewhere, but not so self-less and secure that she can take the cheating in the open? I dont see what's wrong with that and SHE SAID IT HERSELF. My advice to STUCK: go for it now that you can! after all SHE SAID IT HERSELF. Or are we going to consider that the poor girl must surely not know what she's saying? now, THAT is offending, not a few random fucks around which have been previously authorized - no doubt about that, even it this happened in manner that leaves you all guts-spillers hungry for more.
what if STUCK's girl just is just not very interested in sexual intimacy and ok if he seeks it elsewhere, but not so self-less and secure that she can take the cheating in the open? I dont see what's wrong with that and SHE SAID IT HERSELF. My advice to STUCK: go for it now that you can! after all SHE SAID IT HERSELF. Or are we going to consider that the poor girl must surely not know what she's saying? now, THAT is offending, not a few random fucks around which have been previously authorized - no doubt about that, even it this happened in manner that leaves you all guts-spillers hungry for more.
70
@69 - I didn't get the impression Christine O'Donnell was asexual - I got the impression (from that dude who gave the one-night-stand expose) that she was a pretty lusty gal, if inebriated and a tad repressed.
71
#32 the difference of 1-2 times per week doesn't really seem like that big of a deal, not trying to marginalize your relationship with your vibrator, but people struggling with a genuine sexual incompatibility issue get to the point where masturbation can't make up the difference. That seems like the logical line for me anyways, if maturbation can't make up the difference, it's only a matter of time, if you can make it up the relationship at least has a fighting chance.
72
@67: Problem is, there is a difference between "cheating in the open" and being very careful but making a mistake one day. "Okay as long as I don't find out" equates to "NOT okay if I ever do find out," which really amounts to a threat, not to permission.
I agree that taking her words at face value means go ahead if you think you can do it without making a mistake, but there will be hell to pay if you do.
If what she means is "I don't want to know, so be discreet: don't rub my nose in it privately, and don't embarrass me publicly," she should say that.
I agree that taking her words at face value means go ahead if you think you can do it without making a mistake, but there will be hell to pay if you do.
If what she means is "I don't want to know, so be discreet: don't rub my nose in it privately, and don't embarrass me publicly," she should say that.
74
excellent advice as usual.Does anybody know what BBD and BBD+P means...I have a feeling I'm going to feel stupid...Thanks
75
the first time I ever squirted I was 19. I had no idea what the fuck just happened. I only knew it was great, and I wasn't really able to move for a while afterwards.
My partner at the time was 26...he had no idea either. I tell some, not all prospective partners that I'm able to squirt... it's a lot of pressure if you're not able to...but I've never held back when I did.
Guys ask a lot more now though.
My partner at the time was 26...he had no idea either. I tell some, not all prospective partners that I'm able to squirt... it's a lot of pressure if you're not able to...but I've never held back when I did.
Guys ask a lot more now though.
76
For HOPE, I'm in a fabulous relationship 6 1/2 years after a hookup where I was after was a chance to pound a very cute guy into the mattress just once. He turned out to be smart and sweet and gentle and kind and funny and... yeah. It happens.
77
I had sex with my now-husband about 90 minutes after I met him, in my car. It was hot. I never expected to hear from him again, but he called me and we went out and fast forward fourteen years and we have three kids and are STILL having hot sex (though not in the car...lately).
To be totally fair, however, I had a lot of hookups with guys who I never laid eyes on again. I'd say the ratio of hookups which led to a relationship: hookups which didn't was about 100:1.
Lots of them were fun, though.
To be totally fair, however, I had a lot of hookups with guys who I never laid eyes on again. I'd say the ratio of hookups which led to a relationship: hookups which didn't was about 100:1.
Lots of them were fun, though.
78
Don't give up, HOPE!
I'm still with the true love of my life after 30 years, and it's wonderful!
I've never felt so loved and free in all my life!
I'm still with the true love of my life after 30 years, and it's wonderful!
I've never felt so loved and free in all my life!
79
@61 vennominion-san,
Hi!
I am explicit in those circumstances where I feel my experience brings something to the table, including titillation, older-is-still-great, and my pride in my Lady.
I am at a loss as to your long year comment, because there are so many possible reasons why, both good and bad. Personally, news that a woman was fired from her job for getting IVF treatment and cursed as a wicked sinner really brought me down. I'm considering a campaign of mailing them stones (to cast).
Peace.
Hi!
I am explicit in those circumstances where I feel my experience brings something to the table, including titillation, older-is-still-great, and my pride in my Lady.
I am at a loss as to your long year comment, because there are so many possible reasons why, both good and bad. Personally, news that a woman was fired from her job for getting IVF treatment and cursed as a wicked sinner really brought me down. I'm considering a campaign of mailing them stones (to cast).
Peace.
80
@67 I agree with Avast @72. It's next to impossible to put someone in the "As long as I don't find out" position. There will always be some clue, because he'll be so worried about keeping her from finding out that she'll sense the tension, or a mutual friend will see him out with someone and feel the need to let her know. Just the sheer fact that she called it "cheating" leads me to believe she's ok with it. All she'd have to say is: "If you want to be with other people that's fine but I'd really prefer not to know about it. Be safe with them and with me, and feel free to keep me out of the loop."
81
@67: I see it that way, too, but since it could have been tossed off without thought I think he's required to casually bring it up and check that she would be down with something like "what happens on research trips stays on research trips." I interpret it in the vein "I don't want to know any details, and I don't want to explain the details to our social circle."
82
Mr Married - The last bit wasn't directed at you. I am, alas, back to thinking separatism is the only answer.
I appreciate your wish to fly the flag for the Adult Set. You do it with admirable sense of purpose.
I appreciate your wish to fly the flag for the Adult Set. You do it with admirable sense of purpose.
83
My husband and I had the panties-and-pegging talk early on. I was quite pleased that he trusted me enough to tell me what he liked. Honestly, I like to get those "what are your kinks" talks out of the way early. Gives us more time to go and DO them.
84
@66, not taking into account how your partner might actually feel about you taking her up on her offer on account of "BUT YOU SAID" is just plain dickish. Go for it if you want, but don't expect me to applaud you for it.
85
"Her view was that she wasn't interested, but if I cheated it would be fine as long as she never found out."
I don't get this statement. How would cheating be okay only if she never found out? So that means cheating isn't ok because she would be upset if she found out. if that isn't a mixed message, i don't know what is.
I don't get this statement. How would cheating be okay only if she never found out? So that means cheating isn't ok because she would be upset if she found out. if that isn't a mixed message, i don't know what is.
86
Spark,
No, the issue for her is simply that she doesn't want to know about it. If her ignorance is maintained, her world is still whole. That's not a mixed msg.
No, the issue for her is simply that she doesn't want to know about it. If her ignorance is maintained, her world is still whole. That's not a mixed msg.
87
STUCK: Date graduate students (if you can find any). They understand and will treat you "the same way" (for some value of that phrase), and probably have a hard time finding partners who fully understand _their_ occasional need to obsessively bury themselves in research for a few intense weeks at a time.
88
@45, I agree wholeheartedly. Knowing your own sexual response is often overrated. It is almost like tickling - it is impossible to tickle oneself, so no amount of self-experimentation is going to be helpful in teaching someone else how to tickle you.
Anyway, the right partner can give you experiences that you yourself never thought were possible, and that are impossible to reproduce on your own. For example, I'm a guy to whom most oral sex doesn't feel like much, yet I've received blowjobs on a few occasions from guys who did it just the right way for the sensation to be out of this world, yet I have no idea how precisely they did it, and would not know where to start explaining to someone else how to do it. I think with sex in general people either have the magic touch or they don't. Maybe it is something inborn that has to do with mirror neurons or something. The magic touch is seldom something that can be taught.
Anyway, the right partner can give you experiences that you yourself never thought were possible, and that are impossible to reproduce on your own. For example, I'm a guy to whom most oral sex doesn't feel like much, yet I've received blowjobs on a few occasions from guys who did it just the right way for the sensation to be out of this world, yet I have no idea how precisely they did it, and would not know where to start explaining to someone else how to do it. I think with sex in general people either have the magic touch or they don't. Maybe it is something inborn that has to do with mirror neurons or something. The magic touch is seldom something that can be taught.
89
If you’re just so important that you need partners who understand how much more important your work is than they are, you’re only going to have partners who value your needs equally little as you do theirs. He can DTMFA but he’ll just end up in something with the same dynamics if he doesn’t change his priorities. Not saying he should, but he can’t have his cake and eat it too. He’s gotta pick one or the other.
90
@cocky (88)
Bingo. It's a lot like tickling.
Sex and mirror neurons? Maybe... although maybe not so much in hetero sex based on what I know about mirror neurons.
Bingo. It's a lot like tickling.
Sex and mirror neurons? Maybe... although maybe not so much in hetero sex based on what I know about mirror neurons.
91
Hookups are all about practicing how to treat people. If you treat one night stands like crap, I'd suspect you treat significant others like that as well. Perhaps not at the outset, when you are on your best behavior making an investment in that LTR. But its a sign of how low you can go once the pressure is off.
92
I had a hook up 3 times with the same guy in hopes of a relationship but I was stupid enough not to realize I was just a "hook up".... I really liked (like) this guy and I'm not really sure what happened. I know guys don't like needy women so I really tried not to be needy. After the first time he called....he said I was amaizing... and wanted to see me the next weekend. The way he looked at me and kissed me made my heart melt......he was good lol.... I didn't intend for any of the hookups to happen but there was such a..... what I thought was "chemistry" ....that I let it happen....and I never do that...... I guess I made a mistake sending him an email on Valentines day telling him the things I liked about him... I called and he didn't answer, respond to my email or return my call for several days. We then only communicated through email after that....but with slow to no responces. Each time he responded he would say "I was just going to call or email you but you beat me to it"...really?? well anyway We did get together one more time. I expressed my interest in getting to know him better and to keep in touch with him when he gets deployed in a coupe months. Then the last email I got from him a little while after that he said that he was going to be out of town for about 5 weeks for training and then he ended the emai with "so I will see you when I can" and that it... the last time I have heard from him...I know he has alot on his mind and that he is busy because he is prepairing to go to Afghanistan but come on... how hard is it and how much time does it take to just say Hi! or fuck off or something....Just be a man!!! .what am I supposed to think or do??? It's hard to just forget ya know??....BTW the "Rules" and games suck!!! I just wanted to get to know this guy....is that asking too much?? Give a little respect to the people you come in contact with peope!!! This goes for both men and women! We all have feelings! And I don't know of anyone that wants to just be used!!! I am soooo disappointed and heart broken :(
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93
@92:
I agree that playing silly games suck and honesty is preferable, and I also don't know why some people don't have the decency and respect to just say that they're not interested--unless it's to keep the door open should they want a random booty call. It's rude; it's unfeeling. I'm sorry that you are disappointed and heartbroken.
But in general, if someone is interested, he or she will make a move to get in touch. If s/he doesn't, you can be assured that you will always be, at most, an afterthought or a last-ditch, desperation lay. If you don't want to be that, don't settle for or put up with being treated like that. Sometimes you can't tell until after a hookup that that's how you're going to be seen, but once you've slept with someone, if the silence ensues, know that that's all you're going to ever be to that person.
I agree that playing silly games suck and honesty is preferable, and I also don't know why some people don't have the decency and respect to just say that they're not interested--unless it's to keep the door open should they want a random booty call. It's rude; it's unfeeling. I'm sorry that you are disappointed and heartbroken.
But in general, if someone is interested, he or she will make a move to get in touch. If s/he doesn't, you can be assured that you will always be, at most, an afterthought or a last-ditch, desperation lay. If you don't want to be that, don't settle for or put up with being treated like that. Sometimes you can't tell until after a hookup that that's how you're going to be seen, but once you've slept with someone, if the silence ensues, know that that's all you're going to ever be to that person.
94
You are a nut job, Dan. I know several gay men, and I consider them good friends. I am disgusted by your views. I am a Christian man. I have a wife and children. You are nothing but a coward because you hide behind hate and ignorance. The truth always comes out, buddy. It will for you...very soon. Pansy ASS!
95
@92, @93,
I've been hurt (and am hurting) that way, too. It's very painful to fall in love with someone who has sex with you and then doesn't care enough to communicate ever again.
I'm not sure what it means not to "put up with being treated like that", other than the obvious "do not have sex with that person again".
In the future I will clearly ask whether he's looking for a one-time hook-up or a more lasting connection. Then I'll be not so quick to jump into bed with someone, not until I'm sure he likes me enough to want to spend time with me. And then do my best to keep my feelings in check until I'm sure the other person is worthy of the emotion.
That's the plan. I hope that will be enough to avoid that kind of heartache in the future.
It would be great to be able to have one-night stands, but for me it's playing with fire. I'm not looking for monogamy, but it's connection and love that I crave. It seems like such a complicated negotiation, to find what you're looking for in romance and sex.
Thanks for your kind response to "disappointed", nocutename.
I've been hurt (and am hurting) that way, too. It's very painful to fall in love with someone who has sex with you and then doesn't care enough to communicate ever again.
I'm not sure what it means not to "put up with being treated like that", other than the obvious "do not have sex with that person again".
In the future I will clearly ask whether he's looking for a one-time hook-up or a more lasting connection. Then I'll be not so quick to jump into bed with someone, not until I'm sure he likes me enough to want to spend time with me. And then do my best to keep my feelings in check until I'm sure the other person is worthy of the emotion.
That's the plan. I hope that will be enough to avoid that kind of heartache in the future.
It would be great to be able to have one-night stands, but for me it's playing with fire. I'm not looking for monogamy, but it's connection and love that I crave. It seems like such a complicated negotiation, to find what you're looking for in romance and sex.
Thanks for your kind response to "disappointed", nocutename.
97
Little I mean little Danny Savage really hurts me especially in the pee pee. HEHE Get over it hypocrite. Stop being a gay bully. Leave people of race, color and religion out of your hate speech. NOW you are the BULLY little Danny. Please don't touch my pee pee!
98
By the way, I'm going to once again make my suggestion regarding DTMFA in cases where the prospective dumpee is not, in any significant way, a MF, just not an appropriate match for the prospective dumper. Replace the MF with "poor thing". Or if you must stay slightly crude, "poor bastard". So DTMFAs are for when you're doing it mostly for your own good, and DTPTAs are for when you're doing it to spare your partner...
99
Dan - you no longer have credibility talking about bullying after you bashed Christian teens. Very sad.
100
Read the story about Dan bashing Christianity. Thanks Dan..that's what we need in the world, more hate and anger.
101
Read the article regarding Dan's bullying Christian teens during a so called anti-bullying speech. Nice going Dan. Just what we need in the world, more hate and anger.
102
92- disappointed-- You said: "I don't know of anyone who just wants to be used!!!"
Heartbreak is tough to handle, but maybe I can say something that helps a little. Try not to think of yourself as having been used. Try to think of what a great time you had in bed with him. Think of the time you had as using him. You got a terrific sexual experience without having to do his laundry or be sensitive to him when he's having a bad day.
As for "Rules" and games, the funny thing about rules is that they work when everyone is playing the same game. Imagine sitting down to play poker when your partner is playing gin rummy. You'd all be confused and angry with each other. But if everyone is playing bridge, there's the potential to have a lot of fun. And you'd be thrown out and despised if you cheated or insisted on playing something else.
That's what's behind your excellent resolution to wait a bit before having terrific sex with the next guy. You get to discover what games HE's playing and what rules HE's following. As it is, he could accuse you of breaking the rule of casual sex by wanting a whole relationship just as easily as you could accuse him of breaking the rule about calling again after you've slept with them. The way he's looking at it, he held up his part of the bargain-- quite well from the sound of things-- in that he showed you a terrific time.
More advice based on "he said I was amaizing" That sounds a little corny. Look for people you can fall for because THEY'RE amazing, not because they think you are. It's the classic mistake of the young. We fall in love with love. We fall in love with our reflection in the other person's eyes. Don't spend too much time trying to figure out what happened. He just not that into you. Of course you shouldn't be too needy, but emotional independence is something you should start with for your own sake, not something you cultivate because men don't like needy women.
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Heartbreak is tough to handle, but maybe I can say something that helps a little. Try not to think of yourself as having been used. Try to think of what a great time you had in bed with him. Think of the time you had as using him. You got a terrific sexual experience without having to do his laundry or be sensitive to him when he's having a bad day.
As for "Rules" and games, the funny thing about rules is that they work when everyone is playing the same game. Imagine sitting down to play poker when your partner is playing gin rummy. You'd all be confused and angry with each other. But if everyone is playing bridge, there's the potential to have a lot of fun. And you'd be thrown out and despised if you cheated or insisted on playing something else.
That's what's behind your excellent resolution to wait a bit before having terrific sex with the next guy. You get to discover what games HE's playing and what rules HE's following. As it is, he could accuse you of breaking the rule of casual sex by wanting a whole relationship just as easily as you could accuse him of breaking the rule about calling again after you've slept with them. The way he's looking at it, he held up his part of the bargain-- quite well from the sound of things-- in that he showed you a terrific time.
More advice based on "he said I was amaizing" That sounds a little corny. Look for people you can fall for because THEY'RE amazing, not because they think you are. It's the classic mistake of the young. We fall in love with love. We fall in love with our reflection in the other person's eyes. Don't spend too much time trying to figure out what happened. He just not that into you. Of course you shouldn't be too needy, but emotional independence is something you should start with for your own sake, not something you cultivate because men don't like needy women.
103
92- disappointed-- One more thing. I know this sounds cruel when you're feeling so heartbroken, but if he is preparing to go to Afghanistan, he really does have a lot on his mind. It's true he has time to tell you that he wants to make a clean break of it, but from the tone of your letter, you sound more interested in making sure he emails you than you are in the fact that he's about to risk his life and see stress and violence of the sort most of us don't even want to imagine. If you want a mature, committed relationship, you're going to have to be a bit more supportive than that.
105
The "anti-bullying" posters here have obviously not even seen the video. Dan is pointing out the ridiculousness of bashing people over the head with the bible when they don't follow it 100% themselves. Dan knows the bible very well, and he points to the fact that the bible condoned slavery, and how wrong it was on that issue, how in god's green earth could it have gotten human sexuality right?
Those kids weren't bullied - their views were challenged, and they weren't having any of that, so they cowardly walked out.
Those kids weren't bullied - their views were challenged, and they weren't having any of that, so they cowardly walked out.
106
A girl who can't let herself go with a guy she's dating—maybe she fears being slut- or nympho-shamed by a boyfriend—will grind the dick off a hookup
I'm totally tired of it being acceptable to blame one's irrational fears on someone else. There are methods to deal with (in this example) a boyfriend who doesn't appreciate the kind of sex a woman wants to have (DTMFA).
You can't be "self-liberated" but also hold to what arbitrary societal pressures. Liberated enough to be a CPOS but not liberated enough to separate from the BF? I find that hypocritical.
I'm totally tired of it being acceptable to blame one's irrational fears on someone else. There are methods to deal with (in this example) a boyfriend who doesn't appreciate the kind of sex a woman wants to have (DTMFA).
You can't be "self-liberated" but also hold to what arbitrary societal pressures. Liberated enough to be a CPOS but not liberated enough to separate from the BF? I find that hypocritical.
107
@106
I don't think he was referring to cheating hookups, I think he was referring to hookups outside relationships.
I don't think he was referring to cheating hookups, I think he was referring to hookups outside relationships.
108
Wow, this jerk is going around acting like he's fit to give advice to anyone about anything. Savage, YOU are a bully. YOU are intolerant. YOU are a bigot. How about you stop hiding behind that rainbow flag and show the world for what you are - one big hate-filled moron who thinks the world owes him something because he had a (boo-hoo) "hard life".
Get over yourself. And by the way, stop the pretentious bit about "love". You don't know the meaning of the word.
What a jackhole.
Get over yourself. And by the way, stop the pretentious bit about "love". You don't know the meaning of the word.
What a jackhole.
109
@102/103 Great advice!
@93 The only other thing worth adding perhaps is; just because you're going in a certain direction emotionally, that doesn't mean they are. Being on the same page on an emotional level can be challenging even when you have the same understanding intellectually of what's happening that they do. Add to that a willingness to sidestep up front communication and it's just a mess. Plus ask yourself; even if you had waited and found out what he would do, how you would feel & etc. would you still have done it?
Everyone wants to be in a happy, stable relationship with someone they love who loves them as well. But somehow things always get messy. The best thing you can do is pick yourself up and try to take something (whether it be cautionary or fondness or etc.) from your experience and keep trying.
@93 The only other thing worth adding perhaps is; just because you're going in a certain direction emotionally, that doesn't mean they are. Being on the same page on an emotional level can be challenging even when you have the same understanding intellectually of what's happening that they do. Add to that a willingness to sidestep up front communication and it's just a mess. Plus ask yourself; even if you had waited and found out what he would do, how you would feel & etc. would you still have done it?
Everyone wants to be in a happy, stable relationship with someone they love who loves them as well. But somehow things always get messy. The best thing you can do is pick yourself up and try to take something (whether it be cautionary or fondness or etc.) from your experience and keep trying.
110
Just wanted to stop by and see what this was all about since I just saw your video bashing the bible. I get it. You are a homosexual bully. You hate yourself and therefore find fault with everyone who doesn't think your chosen lifestyle is "normal". Stay miserable, it is the only way you'll ever be happy.
111
@92 You asked "what am I supposed to think or do?"
You are supposed to think he enjoyed the sex but the sense of connection you feel wasn't there for him. He'd be happy to keep repeating the sex. If you aren't happy with that, you should not contact him. (I want to say something about him not wanting to start anything emotionally connected before deploying, but I don't want to give you false hope. If he were feeling the connection, he'd be doing something about it.)
Crinoline gave good advice.
I'll second DTPTA.
@106, what 107 said. People not wanting to scare off someone they care about, whose rejection would be devastating, is not a new thing. No cheating is involved.
You are supposed to think he enjoyed the sex but the sense of connection you feel wasn't there for him. He'd be happy to keep repeating the sex. If you aren't happy with that, you should not contact him. (I want to say something about him not wanting to start anything emotionally connected before deploying, but I don't want to give you false hope. If he were feeling the connection, he'd be doing something about it.)
Crinoline gave good advice.
I'll second DTPTA.
@106, what 107 said. People not wanting to scare off someone they care about, whose rejection would be devastating, is not a new thing. No cheating is involved.
112
In addition to his vile bullying of high school students Dan Savage went to the office of a politician he did not agree with, when he had the flu, and deliberately licked the door handles, coffee cups, basically everything in the office in an attempt to infect the workers there with his illness. I wonder if he had murdered someone who had cancer, or who was elderly, or who had HIV if Mr. Savage would even feel guilty or if, to him, it would have been merely collateral damage in his vile war on anyone who disagrees with him.
113
Dan, I hope you read this. You are a coward and a hypocrite for picking on a bunch of teenagers because of their faith. Let me tell you something "pansy ass". If I ever spot you in Baltimore, I will beat you to the ground and then we will see just how tough the bullying "pansy ass" really is. I have zero tolerance for bullies and you are a classic example. Please post your plans if you come this way so I can make sure we meet up you spineless punk.
114
@93,102,103,111 I appreciate all of your advice and kind words.
I'm sorry but I think I made a mistake in some of my wording lol I am not angry and I do still care about him and appreciate him very much....I think he is a great guy and I admire him for serving our country and risking his mental and phisical being in the process! I expressed that to him....just not sure he reads my emails lol I guess I'm just in limbo right now not knowing....and my moral self is disappointed in "me" for giving in so soon...not him. I just think communication is important. When I said "what am I supposed to think or do" I really just don't know what to think....you know is he just busy or preoccupied or is he really ignoring me? which I admit again that that is my problem and insecurity....I don't like to be ignored :( I guess the reason I'm confused and disappointed is because I really think there was a connection there and I just feel helpless.... that's where the "what do I do" part comes in...do I just be patient or say something? I don't want to say anything that will burn the bridge or cause hard feelings...I don't want that for sure. Well anyway I want to thank you all the advice and for helping me realize that this is my problem and I have to suck it up and be happy for the experience....which I realiy am regaurdless of how my previous post sounded. I think that's why venting sometimes and having a venue to post like here helps to put things in perspective. Every relationship is a learning experience and should not be carried over to the next relationship in a negative way....each one is different and needs to be treated that way. I am learning here :) lol I will Learn from my mistakes and move on....Thank you again...
I'm sorry but I think I made a mistake in some of my wording lol I am not angry and I do still care about him and appreciate him very much....I think he is a great guy and I admire him for serving our country and risking his mental and phisical being in the process! I expressed that to him....just not sure he reads my emails lol I guess I'm just in limbo right now not knowing....and my moral self is disappointed in "me" for giving in so soon...not him. I just think communication is important. When I said "what am I supposed to think or do" I really just don't know what to think....you know is he just busy or preoccupied or is he really ignoring me? which I admit again that that is my problem and insecurity....I don't like to be ignored :( I guess the reason I'm confused and disappointed is because I really think there was a connection there and I just feel helpless.... that's where the "what do I do" part comes in...do I just be patient or say something? I don't want to say anything that will burn the bridge or cause hard feelings...I don't want that for sure. Well anyway I want to thank you all the advice and for helping me realize that this is my problem and I have to suck it up and be happy for the experience....which I realiy am regaurdless of how my previous post sounded. I think that's why venting sometimes and having a venue to post like here helps to put things in perspective. Every relationship is a learning experience and should not be carried over to the next relationship in a negative way....each one is different and needs to be treated that way. I am learning here :) lol I will Learn from my mistakes and move on....Thank you again...
115
@ 95,109 thanks to you as well sorry I missed including you in the previous post. Very good advice and I am sorry that you are also hurting LiveAndLet.....I know we need to heal ourselves and love ourselves before we can expect anyone to love us in return...the healing comes from our own self love
Thank You :)
Thank You :)
118
@114:
I think you expressed yourself perfectly. And I think the reality is that you are more into this guy than he is into you. The truth is that even if he's preoccupied and being deployed he has had many chances to send even just a two-word text ("miss you" for example) IF HE WANTED TO.
You asked what you should think and do. Here's what you should think:
1) I am worth being treated with respect and courtesy; even if someone doesn't want a romantic relationship with me, he owes me the courtesy of responding to communications from me.
2) This guy doesn't value me AT ALL. He not only doesn't want any sort of relationship with me, he doesn't want to be bothered to tell me that. He's rather leave me hanging because (a) he doesn't have the guts to have what might turn into an awkward and potentially unpleasant exchange and (b) he doesn't want to burn his bridges, in case he wants to get laid again and other options aren't available.
3) I choose to see this as a learning experience. I don't need to be bitter, but I might not be able to be "grateful" for the great sex we had, or be willing to cut his insensitivity slack just because he's in the military and preoccupied.
Here's what you should do:
If you are the kind of person who feels an emotional closeness with someone once you've slept with him, hold off on the sex until you have a better sense that he isn't just using you (though sometimes it's hard to tell, and people's feelings change, too).
Love yourself. Be kind to yourself. Cut yourself a break. But do not put up with being treated like shit. Every time you look in the mirror repeat the phrase "no more shit." Say it aloud, if you are in a place where you can. Right now, you're sending off signals that say you will put up with being treated like this, and you are attracting the kind of person who treats women like this. When you truly believe that you deserve better and you won't accept this kind of treatment, the guys who prefer to treat women this way will pick up on that and steer clear of you.
I'm sorry that you have been yanked around like this. The kind of mixed signals you were getting can wreak havoc on a person's peace of mind. And you really liked this guy, so you wanted so badly You wanted him to show you that he really likes you. But he isn't going to.
Good luck. Eat some ice cream.
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I think you expressed yourself perfectly. And I think the reality is that you are more into this guy than he is into you. The truth is that even if he's preoccupied and being deployed he has had many chances to send even just a two-word text ("miss you" for example) IF HE WANTED TO.
You asked what you should think and do. Here's what you should think:
1) I am worth being treated with respect and courtesy; even if someone doesn't want a romantic relationship with me, he owes me the courtesy of responding to communications from me.
2) This guy doesn't value me AT ALL. He not only doesn't want any sort of relationship with me, he doesn't want to be bothered to tell me that. He's rather leave me hanging because (a) he doesn't have the guts to have what might turn into an awkward and potentially unpleasant exchange and (b) he doesn't want to burn his bridges, in case he wants to get laid again and other options aren't available.
3) I choose to see this as a learning experience. I don't need to be bitter, but I might not be able to be "grateful" for the great sex we had, or be willing to cut his insensitivity slack just because he's in the military and preoccupied.
Here's what you should do:
If you are the kind of person who feels an emotional closeness with someone once you've slept with him, hold off on the sex until you have a better sense that he isn't just using you (though sometimes it's hard to tell, and people's feelings change, too).
Love yourself. Be kind to yourself. Cut yourself a break. But do not put up with being treated like shit. Every time you look in the mirror repeat the phrase "no more shit." Say it aloud, if you are in a place where you can. Right now, you're sending off signals that say you will put up with being treated like this, and you are attracting the kind of person who treats women like this. When you truly believe that you deserve better and you won't accept this kind of treatment, the guys who prefer to treat women this way will pick up on that and steer clear of you.
I'm sorry that you have been yanked around like this. The kind of mixed signals you were getting can wreak havoc on a person's peace of mind. And you really liked this guy, so you wanted so badly You wanted him to show you that he really likes you. But he isn't going to.
Good luck. Eat some ice cream.
120
@88, 90: Oddly, while I cannot tickle myself, I most certainly can make myself come -- certainly more efficiently, if not necessarily more mind-blowingly, than anyone else on the planet. Maybe that analogy isn't quite so apropos after all.
My major point was that it isn't his _fault_ if he doesn't know how to make her come if she doesn't know herself. I agree that exploration can be a marvelous thing in that direction, but the recipient of all that wonderful attention has to be open to it, and in the case of Letter Writer, that seems, sadly, to be off the table.
My major point was that it isn't his _fault_ if he doesn't know how to make her come if she doesn't know herself. I agree that exploration can be a marvelous thing in that direction, but the recipient of all that wonderful attention has to be open to it, and in the case of Letter Writer, that seems, sadly, to be off the table.
122
59-Mydriasis
Don't get me wrong. I've also had the (wonderful) experience of having a great sex partner with whom I didn't get along with all that well outside of the bedroom. I wouldn't go so far as to say he annoyed the crap out of me, but I understand the basic principle.
My point is intent. If you go into the sex with the hope of finding that special someone you share a great relationship with, someone who does not annoy you in every other way, then at some point, you're going to want to break things off with that terrific fuck buddy.
I call that heartbreaking, or at least disappointing and frustrating. If the point all along was to enjoy the sex, then I'm with you: No need to break it off.
(Note: I'm not suggesting that the disappointment, frustration and heartbreak will be so great that one should avoid the sex-only hookup in the first place. I'd recommend weighing pros and cons with the real possibility that the sex might be good enough to offset the disadvantages. Like I said, I've had great fuck buddies myself.)
My comments were based on the original question in letter #1. There's even less background than usual in the question so I paid attention to the signature: Hope One Person Enters. I'd say the letter writer is looking for someone who does not annoy the crap out of her (him?) outside of the sexual escapades.
Don't get me wrong. I've also had the (wonderful) experience of having a great sex partner with whom I didn't get along with all that well outside of the bedroom. I wouldn't go so far as to say he annoyed the crap out of me, but I understand the basic principle.
My point is intent. If you go into the sex with the hope of finding that special someone you share a great relationship with, someone who does not annoy you in every other way, then at some point, you're going to want to break things off with that terrific fuck buddy.
I call that heartbreaking, or at least disappointing and frustrating. If the point all along was to enjoy the sex, then I'm with you: No need to break it off.
(Note: I'm not suggesting that the disappointment, frustration and heartbreak will be so great that one should avoid the sex-only hookup in the first place. I'd recommend weighing pros and cons with the real possibility that the sex might be good enough to offset the disadvantages. Like I said, I've had great fuck buddies myself.)
My comments were based on the original question in letter #1. There's even less background than usual in the question so I paid attention to the signature: Hope One Person Enters. I'd say the letter writer is looking for someone who does not annoy the crap out of her (him?) outside of the sexual escapades.
123
Wow, lots of bible-humpers in this comment section. Let's even things out a bit, shall we?
You are awesome, Dan. Fuck the Bible, fuck Christians, fuck Catholics, and fuck their imaginary God who supposedly gives them permission to ruin innocent peoples' lives. Being gay isn't a choice. Being a worthless, ignorant, hate-spewing bigot is a choice, and it's apparently the choice that most Christians and Catholics are encouraged to make.
You are awesome, Dan. Fuck the Bible, fuck Christians, fuck Catholics, and fuck their imaginary God who supposedly gives them permission to ruin innocent peoples' lives. Being gay isn't a choice. Being a worthless, ignorant, hate-spewing bigot is a choice, and it's apparently the choice that most Christians and Catholics are encouraged to make.
124
114-disappointed
Here's more specific advice on what you should do.
Read books.
Exercise.
Work hard at your job. Do it the best you can.
Work hard at your school work. Do that the best you can.
Volunteer. Find something useful and helpful to pour your energies into.
Floss your teeth. No one ever regretted flossing.
Work on your written communications. Learn the difference between periods and ellipses, and use each appropriately.
If you meet a man who interests you, talk to him about the things that you interest you. That would be what you're reading, what you're studying in school, what your job is, and what your volunteer work is. Listen to him as he talks about the same. Do not bring up flossing.
If the guy in Afghanistan doesn't get in touch, wait 5 years. Then send him a card at Xmas hoping he has a nice holiday.
If the guy in Afghanistan does get in touch, wait 5 days. Then say it's nice to hear from him, wish him well, and ask about what he's doing.
Here's more specific advice on what you should do.
Read books.
Exercise.
Work hard at your job. Do it the best you can.
Work hard at your school work. Do that the best you can.
Volunteer. Find something useful and helpful to pour your energies into.
Floss your teeth. No one ever regretted flossing.
Work on your written communications. Learn the difference between periods and ellipses, and use each appropriately.
If you meet a man who interests you, talk to him about the things that you interest you. That would be what you're reading, what you're studying in school, what your job is, and what your volunteer work is. Listen to him as he talks about the same. Do not bring up flossing.
If the guy in Afghanistan doesn't get in touch, wait 5 years. Then send him a card at Xmas hoping he has a nice holiday.
If the guy in Afghanistan does get in touch, wait 5 days. Then say it's nice to hear from him, wish him well, and ask about what he's doing.
125
Hey number 123, Did- read this 10 times and try to let it sink in. Being a worthless, ignorant, hate-spewing bigot is a choice
127
Dan Savage is a bully (ironically) and sickeningly, intentionally perpetuates the type of hate he otherwise claims to be against. A hypocritical fool who has lost the respect of thousands, and single-handedly developed hate in thousands more.
Shameful and a disgrace. Thanks for causing more pain...
Shameful and a disgrace. Thanks for causing more pain...
128
My guy of 14 years and I were a hook-up - we've lived together for the past 6 years. We are in an open relationship.
My real comment relates to being human to your hookups. As a gal going out to meet men to hookup with their are a wide assortment of ways I'll get treated before, during and after sex. If it is before sex and someone is an asshole you can leave or you know what you are getting into. If it is during you can usually correct what is wrong or you can leave. But it is that assholery (as Dan calls it) after that still bugs me - after 16 years of slutting. I am saddened and hurt by men who shut down become rude, kick me out after sex.
Dan says maybe it is because they want to keep it as a one time hookup/or only a hookup. I have actually had some of these call me for a repeat - sorry if you can't be nice I can't get naked for you, suck your dick etc.
In addition to Dan's reason (wanting to keep it on one time thing) I would say the more common reason is they have gotten what they want and they are just rude (because they sure know how to be nice before sex).
As an aside - I'm bi and this hasn't happened to me yet during hookups with women.
Dan I have to say it makes me so happy to hear you tell people to be nice to your hookups. How hard is it to be human and kind?
My real comment relates to being human to your hookups. As a gal going out to meet men to hookup with their are a wide assortment of ways I'll get treated before, during and after sex. If it is before sex and someone is an asshole you can leave or you know what you are getting into. If it is during you can usually correct what is wrong or you can leave. But it is that assholery (as Dan calls it) after that still bugs me - after 16 years of slutting. I am saddened and hurt by men who shut down become rude, kick me out after sex.
Dan says maybe it is because they want to keep it as a one time hookup/or only a hookup. I have actually had some of these call me for a repeat - sorry if you can't be nice I can't get naked for you, suck your dick etc.
In addition to Dan's reason (wanting to keep it on one time thing) I would say the more common reason is they have gotten what they want and they are just rude (because they sure know how to be nice before sex).
As an aside - I'm bi and this hasn't happened to me yet during hookups with women.
Dan I have to say it makes me so happy to hear you tell people to be nice to your hookups. How hard is it to be human and kind?
129
My guy of 14 years and I were a hook-up - we've lived together for the past 6 years. We are in an open relationship.
My real comment relates to being human to your hookups. As a gal going out to meet men to hookup with their are a wide assortment of ways I'll get treated before, during and after sex. If it is before sex and someone is an asshole you can leave or you know what you are getting into. If it is during you can usually correct what is wrong or you can leave. But it is that assholery (as Dan calls it) after that still bugs me - after 16 years of slutting. I am saddened and hurt by men who shut down become rude, kick me out after sex.
Dan says maybe it is because they want to keep it as a one time hookup/or only a hookup. I have actually had some of these call me for a repeat - sorry if you can't be nice I can't get naked for you, suck your dick etc.
In addition to Dan's reason (wanting to keep it on one time thing) I would say the more common reason is they have gotten what they want and they are just rude (because they sure know how to be nice before sex).
As an aside - I'm bi and this hasn't happened to me yet during hookups with women.
Dan I have to say it makes me so happy to hear you tell people to be nice to your hookups. How hard is it to be human and kind?
My real comment relates to being human to your hookups. As a gal going out to meet men to hookup with their are a wide assortment of ways I'll get treated before, during and after sex. If it is before sex and someone is an asshole you can leave or you know what you are getting into. If it is during you can usually correct what is wrong or you can leave. But it is that assholery (as Dan calls it) after that still bugs me - after 16 years of slutting. I am saddened and hurt by men who shut down become rude, kick me out after sex.
Dan says maybe it is because they want to keep it as a one time hookup/or only a hookup. I have actually had some of these call me for a repeat - sorry if you can't be nice I can't get naked for you, suck your dick etc.
In addition to Dan's reason (wanting to keep it on one time thing) I would say the more common reason is they have gotten what they want and they are just rude (because they sure know how to be nice before sex).
As an aside - I'm bi and this hasn't happened to me yet during hookups with women.
Dan I have to say it makes me so happy to hear you tell people to be nice to your hookups. How hard is it to be human and kind?
130
You know, I would have been more impressed, and had a little more respect for Mr. Savage had he given that little bullying speech about Islam, and in front of a Madrassa. He would never do that because he would probably not easily walk away from that event. So what does that say about Mr. Savage? Is he 'courageous'? No, he picks on members of a faith that believe in forgiveness, and 'turning the other cheek' because he knows they will not 'fight back'. Gee .. sounds very much like a bully to me.
132
@130: The reason he would never do that in front of a madrassa is because they aren't involved. The ones pushing anti-gay legislation in the USA aren't the Muslims, and the book they are basing their campaign on isn't the Koran. He is addressing (what you call "picking on") Christians and talking about the Bible because they are the ones actively making his life difficult. It isn't about Christians not fighting back. Christian fundamentalists are the aggressors to begin with, and Dan's the one "fighting back."
Moron.
Moron.
134
@132
Though (fundamentalist) Christians do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to screwing Americans out of human rights, (fundamentalist) Muslims tend to hold exceedingly similar worldviews. Islam and Christianity a lot alike (I may be wrong, but the impression I'm under is that they are more alike than any other two religions in current practice).
Though (fundamentalist) Christians do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to screwing Americans out of human rights, (fundamentalist) Muslims tend to hold exceedingly similar worldviews. Islam and Christianity a lot alike (I may be wrong, but the impression I'm under is that they are more alike than any other two religions in current practice).
135
@118, nocutename,
Great advice, very on-point. Thank you.
It would be easy to keep thinking about the reasons why he is unresponsive - maybe the reasons you listed, maybe actual malicious intent (for instance, he may enjoy having power over women and jerking their chains). But it really doesn't matter - your advice to remind yourself "This guy doesn't value me AT ALL" just about covers it.
Great advice, very on-point. Thank you.
It would be easy to keep thinking about the reasons why he is unresponsive - maybe the reasons you listed, maybe actual malicious intent (for instance, he may enjoy having power over women and jerking their chains). But it really doesn't matter - your advice to remind yourself "This guy doesn't value me AT ALL" just about covers it.
136
@134: Nonetheless, whatever they believe, name me one Muslim legislator pushing for anti-gay legislation in the US, let alone waving the Koran around as his justification. Anyone foolish enough to try that in the US would be shouted down in the vilest terms imaginable -- even if they were proposing the same things being put forward by Christians. (So much for Christians being meek little victims.)
I also have to laugh at 130's "you wouldn't dare say any such thing in front of person X who would kick your ass for saying it," as if that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth of what is being said.
I also have to laugh at 130's "you wouldn't dare say any such thing in front of person X who would kick your ass for saying it," as if that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth of what is being said.
137
@124,118,135
Thanks for the grammar lesson about the ellipses. I didn't even know what that was but now I do thank you! I discovered that some people find this annoying and there should only be 3 dots ... I guess my reason for using them was ok but I was using too many dots lol sorry I annoyed you with this.
So what is the idea behind the 5 days 5 years thing?
And for all those that think I should remind myself that he doesn't "value me AT ALL" I don't think that's the best advice. Why would I want to remind myself that someone doesn't value or care for me? I would rather remind myself that I am a person to be valued and that he wasn't the right man to see that. I don't think you ever want to reinforce the negative.
Thanks for the grammar lesson about the ellipses. I didn't even know what that was but now I do thank you! I discovered that some people find this annoying and there should only be 3 dots ... I guess my reason for using them was ok but I was using too many dots lol sorry I annoyed you with this.
So what is the idea behind the 5 days 5 years thing?
And for all those that think I should remind myself that he doesn't "value me AT ALL" I don't think that's the best advice. Why would I want to remind myself that someone doesn't value or care for me? I would rather remind myself that I am a person to be valued and that he wasn't the right man to see that. I don't think you ever want to reinforce the negative.
138
Another thing to keep in mind about hookups - the initial consent is for a hookup, not a long-term relationship. So if you suddenly get clingy and needy and long-term-relationy at that person, even if you otherwise got along, you're probably not going to hear from them again.
139
@ 137:
Think whatever helps you get through this; that was my point. I wasn't trying to get you to reinforce the negative so much as to shift the negative squarely onto his shoulders.
BTW, I don't think you got Crinoline's "lesson" about ellipses. It's not necessarily the number of dots (though yes, it's not an arbitrary number); it's how they function. Larding your every thought with "lol" is likewise a lamentable epistolary habit.
Think whatever helps you get through this; that was my point. I wasn't trying to get you to reinforce the negative so much as to shift the negative squarely onto his shoulders.
BTW, I don't think you got Crinoline's "lesson" about ellipses. It's not necessarily the number of dots (though yes, it's not an arbitrary number); it's how they function. Larding your every thought with "lol" is likewise a lamentable epistolary habit.
140
@135 (LiveAndLet):
I, as much as anyone, have experience with desperately wanting to understand someone else's motives ("but WHY?").
It's not possible. And even if it were, it wouldn't change anything.
The only person whose behavior you can change is yourself.
It doesn't matter why or why not someone else felt the way he did, said what he said, acted the way he did.
What matters is
(a) THAT he did what he did
and
(b) what you choose to do about it.
The only motivation that counts or reason you need to understand is your own.
I, as much as anyone, have experience with desperately wanting to understand someone else's motives ("but WHY?").
It's not possible. And even if it were, it wouldn't change anything.
The only person whose behavior you can change is yourself.
It doesn't matter why or why not someone else felt the way he did, said what he said, acted the way he did.
What matters is
(a) THAT he did what he did
and
(b) what you choose to do about it.
The only motivation that counts or reason you need to understand is your own.
141
@137 disappointed
"this guy doesn't value me AT ALL" means :
" - this guy SHOULD NOT have coldly stopped answering my phone calls without explications, just after I wrote him, not insults, but a sweet valentine detailing how much I liked him ;
- instead he SHOULD have sincerely told me then that all my loving was making him uncomfortable, and that though he felt flattered, a LTR was strictly out of question ;
- and he OWED that same courtesy to whomever he could have had a hookup with, for "give a little respect to the people you come in contact with people" is a basic.
The fact that he DIDN'T give me that common respect, AT ALL, singles HIM out as a negative, uncaring bed partner, that I don't have to value as a partner - even though the sex was actually great - and that has no bearing on the fact that I may very well value him as a fellow citizen for his military occupation."
Striking the fact that he didn't value you doesn't mean that you are valueless, but that HE is, himself, valueless for your further hookup or LTR goals. And although you only meant well, it still takes two to tango and obviously this guy is not dancing.
"this guy doesn't value me AT ALL" means :
" - this guy SHOULD NOT have coldly stopped answering my phone calls without explications, just after I wrote him, not insults, but a sweet valentine detailing how much I liked him ;
- instead he SHOULD have sincerely told me then that all my loving was making him uncomfortable, and that though he felt flattered, a LTR was strictly out of question ;
- and he OWED that same courtesy to whomever he could have had a hookup with, for "give a little respect to the people you come in contact with people" is a basic.
The fact that he DIDN'T give me that common respect, AT ALL, singles HIM out as a negative, uncaring bed partner, that I don't have to value as a partner - even though the sex was actually great - and that has no bearing on the fact that I may very well value him as a fellow citizen for his military occupation."
Striking the fact that he didn't value you doesn't mean that you are valueless, but that HE is, himself, valueless for your further hookup or LTR goals. And although you only meant well, it still takes two to tango and obviously this guy is not dancing.
142
@137 I understand the 5 years - 5 days of crinoline to mean that any further contact between you should be initiated by him since it is him who broke contact ; that if he doesn't contact you please don't stalk him, so wait years before you ever attempt to send him anything again ; that if he contacts you please have restraint enough to give yourself enough days to assess your own feelings about it instead of forcing yourself into his bed, however urgent you will perceive his booty call to be.
You owe it to yourself not to behave like a puppy who can't resist when thrown a bone, and even when not thrown any. You are a grownup. If you ever have a contact with him again, please realize that you will be doing him a huge favor, because he treated you badly enough. If he can't acknowledge it, as in being appreciative enough of you, don't try to meet him again. If he does acknowledge it, he may still be friend material, but in my opinion he's definitely not relationship material, since he can't deal with even hookups in a mature, respecting way.
You owe it to yourself not to behave like a puppy who can't resist when thrown a bone, and even when not thrown any. You are a grownup. If you ever have a contact with him again, please realize that you will be doing him a huge favor, because he treated you badly enough. If he can't acknowledge it, as in being appreciative enough of you, don't try to meet him again. If he does acknowledge it, he may still be friend material, but in my opinion he's definitely not relationship material, since he can't deal with even hookups in a mature, respecting way.
143
AFTER THE ANTI-BULLYING RALLY WHICH I FOLLOW AND HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR YOU AND YOU GO THROWING CHRISTIANITY IN THE MIX? IM NOT EVEN OF CHRISTIAN STATUS AND AFTER ALL THAT I CANT EVEN BELIEVE YOU WOULD EVEN DO THAT. AS OF NOW I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR YOU OR ANY OF YOUR BS, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THE BULLIES THEMSELVES!!!
DONE W YOU
DONE W YOU
145
@136
Oh, yeah. I mean, I know American politics are super racist and no one could get away with the scenario you mentioned. But when you said "pushing for anti-gay legislation" I assumed you were including voters and grass-roots level people as well.
I generally agree with the point you're making, it's just that I feel it deserves pointing out that the reason there aren't (fundamentalist) Muslim politicians doing the things you say is because racism prevents them from doing so - not because they don't believe those things to be true.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I know American politics are super racist and no one could get away with the scenario you mentioned. But when you said "pushing for anti-gay legislation" I assumed you were including voters and grass-roots level people as well.
I generally agree with the point you're making, it's just that I feel it deserves pointing out that the reason there aren't (fundamentalist) Muslim politicians doing the things you say is because racism prevents them from doing so - not because they don't believe those things to be true.
146
@114
I've been through similar experiences. In the past if I liked someone I waited for them to call, and if they didn't within a week I would be really hurt. (Because, someone who really likes you generally calls you within a week)
This is what I learned from those experiences. Wait twice then move on.
If you wait a week and don't hear back, give them the benefit of the doubt (but only once)
In all honesty if someone really likes you, they don't want to wait a week to call you (they won't email either, they will call or text).
Guys who are interested do the following
1. worry about losing you
2. miss you and want to talk to you
3. respect your feelings
Also, don't chase after someone who doesn't respond to you (by email or phone). It only sends the clear message that you are willing to put up with any behavior. So if this guy does finally come around to dating he will still treat you like shit.
None of the relationships that I ever had that lasted started from me chasing the guy. Not to say it couldn't in a blue moon work out (but if it did, it was because he liked you and he would have contacted you anyways)So it's safest to wait for them to call. If you are worried they lost your number, it is ok to send one text but only one. Say something cute and non-chalant. Don't say "how come you haven't called?" or "Did you lose my number?" Those statements sounds desperate.
I know some people may disagree with me, but this is how I stayed away from getting hurt over the years and it really worked. Guys who didn't call I assumed weren't into me, and guess what? They never tried to get in touch after to say how much they really liked me. I never missed out on any relationship because of it.
Don't settle. Don't you want the romantic relationship you hear about from friends where they hook up and shortly after never leave each others sides?
It happens, and it happened to me.
More...
I've been through similar experiences. In the past if I liked someone I waited for them to call, and if they didn't within a week I would be really hurt. (Because, someone who really likes you generally calls you within a week)
This is what I learned from those experiences. Wait twice then move on.
If you wait a week and don't hear back, give them the benefit of the doubt (but only once)
In all honesty if someone really likes you, they don't want to wait a week to call you (they won't email either, they will call or text).
Guys who are interested do the following
1. worry about losing you
2. miss you and want to talk to you
3. respect your feelings
Also, don't chase after someone who doesn't respond to you (by email or phone). It only sends the clear message that you are willing to put up with any behavior. So if this guy does finally come around to dating he will still treat you like shit.
None of the relationships that I ever had that lasted started from me chasing the guy. Not to say it couldn't in a blue moon work out (but if it did, it was because he liked you and he would have contacted you anyways)So it's safest to wait for them to call. If you are worried they lost your number, it is ok to send one text but only one. Say something cute and non-chalant. Don't say "how come you haven't called?" or "Did you lose my number?" Those statements sounds desperate.
I know some people may disagree with me, but this is how I stayed away from getting hurt over the years and it really worked. Guys who didn't call I assumed weren't into me, and guess what? They never tried to get in touch after to say how much they really liked me. I never missed out on any relationship because of it.
Don't settle. Don't you want the romantic relationship you hear about from friends where they hook up and shortly after never leave each others sides?
It happens, and it happened to me.
147
my take on Dan Savage comments of the bible: he should have been more respectful with how he said it. can't call the bible bull... but we can point out the hypocrisy. we need to fight this hate-speech in the bible . read the didache and remember the word homosexual is of a 19th century origin and as for the Hebrew bible (old testament) that is for the Jews to deal with, As far as I am concerned we shouldn't even include the hebrew bible as book for christians or the "Way - Jesus movement". read my story: http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action… peace and love john
148
my take on Dan Savage comments of the bible: he should have been more respectful with how he said it. can't call the bible bull... but we can point out the hypocrisy. we need to fight this hate-speech in the bible . read the didache and remember the word homosexual is of a 19th century origin and as for the Hebrew bible (old testament) that is for the Jews to deal with, As far as I am concerned we shouldn't even include the hebrew bible as book for christians or the "Way - Jesus movement". read my story: http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action… peace and love john
149
Lol,looks like all 10 of those 15 year olds that walked out on Dan have posted.Apparently they had never listened to other opinions before.THE HORROR!
150
@92 - honestly no one has the sand to call this out for why it is ?!? A thick headed woman (or man) and an "only there for the sex" (i.e you were amazing, next week end ? Lol) man (or woman) will almost instantly create an akward jump off situation. Instantly and irreprebly. Especially if the "I don't know what I did ? I swear in every one of my 37 unanswered emails I made it a point to mention that Iam not pressuring him !?" party feels the need to bend reality to avoid addressing themselves (and especially their actions ESPECIALLY) reasonably. I don't buy the victim I don't know what I did bullshit. I you aren't wanting a NSA relationship, don't lie to yourself then whine and bullshit flatter (thanks for the grammar lesson ! A'h'yuk !)some comment board... Lame.
152
This is first time i have visited this site. I didnt even know who Dan Savage was until i saw his bully rant against christians on the news. Really? Your soution to bullying is to bully anyone who disagrees with you? Sorry man, thats pathetic, and dont try to squirm out of it, your hatred was obvious. I wont even get into how freaking wierd your point of view on sexuality is. Are you your own God? Seems like thats your problem. Me, Me, Me! And the worst part is that you actually get a platform to spew your hatred and twisted version of reality. And no, i'm not anti gay, i just think you are a pathetic jerk and waste of carbon.
153
Dan - When the Bible explains what is "sinful" or wrong behaviour, that explaination does NOT constitute bullying. The teachings of the Bible do not endorse bullying; on the contrary, it teaches that we should unconditionally love everyone. (It does teach that we are all sinners and equally in need of a savouir.) But loving people does not mean that we become blind to what is right or wrong. If bullying is defined as saying that some action is wrong, then every religion, government and person is equally guilty of bullying some group(s) of people. So get over yourself and listen to reason. "Bullying" is an individual choice not a religion. Christianity is not the problem. On the contrary, the problem lies in a severe lack of Christian love and grace in the hearts of individuals.
155
Dan...please don't bully kids any more. It diminishes the important work you are doing. I'm not outraged or overreacting. We all make mistakes. I'm just asking you to please not bully kids any more.
Thanks
Thanks
156
There's also nothing wrong with this guy not valuing you at all - what's wrong is letting him get away with it. You know where you stand. What are you going to do about it?
157
2154, 155: Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the definition of "bully," used as a verb.
Calling some part of the bible "bullshit," may have been a poor choice of words if one has issues with profanity (so "nonsense" would have been a better choice); remarking that people who walk out rather than stay and listen to a legitimate and otherwise respectful disagreement with a hypocritical opinion they hold are "pansy-assed" was likewise an inadvisable decision (as the more precise term would have been "cowards").
Neither of these words, nor the opinion expressed that bullies who use the bible to justify their bullying are hypocrites, is an example of bullying.
Bullying includes repeatedly hounding someone for being different. Bullying includes threats and attempts to humiliate and frighten. Bullying is frequently accompanied by small acts of physical violence.
You can object to Dan's use of vulgar language, and you can object to his opinion (although the comment thread in which to do that is elsewhere on Slog). But this wasn't bullying.
Calling some part of the bible "bullshit," may have been a poor choice of words if one has issues with profanity (so "nonsense" would have been a better choice); remarking that people who walk out rather than stay and listen to a legitimate and otherwise respectful disagreement with a hypocritical opinion they hold are "pansy-assed" was likewise an inadvisable decision (as the more precise term would have been "cowards").
Neither of these words, nor the opinion expressed that bullies who use the bible to justify their bullying are hypocrites, is an example of bullying.
Bullying includes repeatedly hounding someone for being different. Bullying includes threats and attempts to humiliate and frighten. Bullying is frequently accompanied by small acts of physical violence.
You can object to Dan's use of vulgar language, and you can object to his opinion (although the comment thread in which to do that is elsewhere on Slog). But this wasn't bullying.
159
Why is it that people like Dan Savage can attack other people and their beliefs without recourse? Yet at the same time criticise them for doing the same to him? I guess everyone HAS to accept his beliefs, yet he can condem others. Seems like a double standard. Your truth isnt my truth dude. You dont condem me for not agreeing with you and i wont condem you for not agreeing with me, ok? I dont have to believe homosexuality ok.
160
Maybe That Woman Should Talk To SEX THERIPIST here In CANADA In Toronto Sue Johanson she use to have aSunday Night Sex Show With Sue Johanson and for that woman Squirting it's Perfectly natural for you to do this your Body is gonna tell you great I'm enjoying the Boy friends Likes this Kewl so don't feel ashamed Or Enberished about what your Body s Telling you it's Pefectly Natural Woma can Produce up to almost a Litre of fluid not all but some so don't tray to reach that Massice Orgasam just to see lol doesn't always happen but for some yes The Brain Contraol whats down below don't let any one else Tell you any diffrent for those who arn't a sex theripist or A Dr Shoudn't Be Giving advice unless you talk to one first . Amd I Right Sue Johanson :0 se's in the yellow pages give her a call I'nm sure she will set you in the right frame of mind when it comes to sex she really listens to her pations and tells you whats normal whats not normal and if she may think it's a problem she only recommends you go see your Dr cause they can uselly tell you if this is normal or not so just relax and let it flow if your partner likes it make sure yea have the rubber sheets over top of the Sheets and Just relax and enjoy :)
161
Bullying,
Physical and/or verbal attacks, usually repeated endlessly (and by groups) against one or a few.
To equate dissenting discourse with bullying is mind boggling. Of course if you've never been the target of the taunts, threats, and physical abuse that so many in our society have experienced, you wouldn't understand because you couldn't be bothered to notice. I won't go so far as saying the majority can't be bullied by the minority, but it is difficult to believe; one gay guy points out moral inconsistencies in the bible, and suddenly he's threatening all of Christianity? If that's all that is required to shake your faith...
Peace.
Physical and/or verbal attacks, usually repeated endlessly (and by groups) against one or a few.
To equate dissenting discourse with bullying is mind boggling. Of course if you've never been the target of the taunts, threats, and physical abuse that so many in our society have experienced, you wouldn't understand because you couldn't be bothered to notice. I won't go so far as saying the majority can't be bullied by the minority, but it is difficult to believe; one gay guy points out moral inconsistencies in the bible, and suddenly he's threatening all of Christianity? If that's all that is required to shake your faith...
Peace.
162
It’s sad how people like you, Mr. Savage, are put in a position of opportunity. Having an opportunity to touch the lives of young men and women, instead you chose to pressure them into hearing and believing your poor excuse of how to live a life. If we (the public) could take your life as an example, would we want to live one just like it? I don’t think so. If you would like for me to elaborate on why, all you have to do is ask. Come to think about it, you were invited by the National Scholastic Press Association, so who is more at fault for allowing you to influence hundreds of young minds?? Your “anti-bullying” speech (or lack thereof) showed tactics that were not your own, ones used by many all over the world… You present the youth with a drug promising positive results but you don’t tell them about the fine print. The positive results are for you, as you indulge in knowing that those you have touched will suffer. There are many like you and I am just one of many that will not stand around and let you take our youth captive. You won’t be satisfied until you have reached your personal satisfaction, leading as many minds to accept what you have been struggling with (i.e. people as a whole have not come to accept men who have the sexual preferences of the same gender or females with the same intentions, religion, morals, family values). You may find America accepts your values at one point in its history, but you will always have an opposition.
You target an audience that you know you have some control over. What did you try to prove when you called out that group of kids that walked out on you, during YOUR demonstration of gay rights? You did prove one thing to me and I can’t say I’m the smartest guy on the planet so I’m sure many share my thoughts… You showed how much of a “pansy-ass” you were by calling out those who stood up for what they believed in. Those people you spoke to were teenagers and you knew that- how old are you? Oh, yeah that’s right, you’re 47 about to hit 50 and you’re calling teenagers “pansy-assed”… wow! You tried to apologize for your “pansy-assed” comment, which we know was directed towards those teenagers and not the action (again I’m not the smartest creature on the planet).
More...
You target an audience that you know you have some control over. What did you try to prove when you called out that group of kids that walked out on you, during YOUR demonstration of gay rights? You did prove one thing to me and I can’t say I’m the smartest guy on the planet so I’m sure many share my thoughts… You showed how much of a “pansy-ass” you were by calling out those who stood up for what they believed in. Those people you spoke to were teenagers and you knew that- how old are you? Oh, yeah that’s right, you’re 47 about to hit 50 and you’re calling teenagers “pansy-assed”… wow! You tried to apologize for your “pansy-assed” comment, which we know was directed towards those teenagers and not the action (again I’m not the smartest creature on the planet).
163
Dan: Sorry, but I feel you really crossed the line with your grossly intolerant Bible bashing rant, and I'm going to vote with my wallet. I'll be pulling the plug on MTV and any publications that carry you, as well as boycott any related sponsors/products. I hope others who recognize YOUR hypocrisy will follow suit.
164
@139,140,141,142,156
I really appreciate everyone for all of the advice and time you took to offer it. That really means a lot to me. I still have mixed emotions here. I'm not sure what my course of action will be but I don't remember saying the sex was "great" so I won't be doing that again. I just feel ... well stupid because I ignored several red flags just because I found someone that I felt some chemestry with. After the first time we met I would catch myself thinking about him and a huge smile would come accross my face, that's something I have never fellt before. I believe that every one comes into our lives for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. When they come into your life for a reason, learn from it and move on. I sure did learn a lot, not really what I wanted to but ... I will be OK! Well anyway I guess I am done. Thanks again to everyone :)
I really appreciate everyone for all of the advice and time you took to offer it. That really means a lot to me. I still have mixed emotions here. I'm not sure what my course of action will be but I don't remember saying the sex was "great" so I won't be doing that again. I just feel ... well stupid because I ignored several red flags just because I found someone that I felt some chemestry with. After the first time we met I would catch myself thinking about him and a huge smile would come accross my face, that's something I have never fellt before. I believe that every one comes into our lives for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. When they come into your life for a reason, learn from it and move on. I sure did learn a lot, not really what I wanted to but ... I will be OK! Well anyway I guess I am done. Thanks again to everyone :)
165
Dan Savage: you are now the bully of Christians and of the Bible. You talk about Christians being hypocrites. Yes we are, but so are you. You made your hypocrisy very clear when you bashed the Bible in your “It Gets Better” anti-bullying campaign in front of a Seattle High School audience. But now that you bashed the Bible, would you please now bash the Quaran in front of any of your audiences. The reason why I request this of you is to see if muslims will give you the same kind of non-violent reaction as you received from bashing the Bible.
166
Dan Savage: you are now the bully of Christians and of the Bible. You talk about Christians being hypocrites. Yes we are, but so are you. You made your hypocrisy very clear when you bashed the Bible in your “It Gets Better” anti-bullying campaign in front of a Seattle High School audience. But now that you bashed the Bible, would you please now bash the Quran in front of any of your audiences. The reason why I request this of you is to see if Muslims will give you the same kind of non-violent reaction as you received from bashing the Bible. If you don't bash the Quran, it only tells me the kind of coward you really are. I will pray for you that you will someday give your life to Jesus Christ.
167
@59: "Without recourse?" Excuse me a sec while I guffaw at your pathetic attempt at vocabulary without logic to back it up. What exactly do you call walking out of his talk? What do you call yelling at him in the comments section of his own blog, let alone pretty much anywhere else on the web where the subject has come up? Clearly you have no idea whatsoever what "no recourse" means.
Mean ol' Danny, just look at whats he done to the poor widdle Christians, and they can't even raise their voices to complain, let alone get anythings the way they want it. Big mean Danny has made it so good Christian men and women can't even marry each other, because everyone knows that "Christian marriage" (as distinct from just plain "marriage") is an abomination. Big mean Danny has made it so that gays beat Christians with baseball bats for daring to hold hands in public. Big mean Danny has convinced the whole country to not vote Christians into public office, because everybody knows that what Christians do in the privacy of their own bedrooms makes them so twisted that they can't be trusted with civic office. Poor hapless candidates have to go around making statements to convince the voters that they are the gayest person running.
When the biggest, strongest, most vocal, most powerful majority in the country starts acting like they are all threatened and oppressed by a minority that makes up somewhere between 1.5 and 5 percent of the population, "bullshit" and "pansy-assed" are entirely appropriate responses. "Projection" and "martyr complex" hit the target pretty squarely too.
Mean ol' Danny, just look at whats he done to the poor widdle Christians, and they can't even raise their voices to complain, let alone get anythings the way they want it. Big mean Danny has made it so good Christian men and women can't even marry each other, because everyone knows that "Christian marriage" (as distinct from just plain "marriage") is an abomination. Big mean Danny has made it so that gays beat Christians with baseball bats for daring to hold hands in public. Big mean Danny has convinced the whole country to not vote Christians into public office, because everybody knows that what Christians do in the privacy of their own bedrooms makes them so twisted that they can't be trusted with civic office. Poor hapless candidates have to go around making statements to convince the voters that they are the gayest person running.
When the biggest, strongest, most vocal, most powerful majority in the country starts acting like they are all threatened and oppressed by a minority that makes up somewhere between 1.5 and 5 percent of the population, "bullshit" and "pansy-assed" are entirely appropriate responses. "Projection" and "martyr complex" hit the target pretty squarely too.
169
@159 I love, love, love, love, love how you fucking Christians consider pointing out what is in the Bible to be an attack on the Bible.
171
Re: 167. Sorry, your hatred says all we need to know about you. Got an axe to grind do ya? Let me explain in a normal human tone, pay attention. Without recourse means Dan and the homosexual liberals are pushing their ideology and agenda at will. People who see things differently are lambasted, as you have shown, for disagreeing. The fact that Dan Savage has this kind of platform to begin with proves my point. My 5 year old gets this " diversity trainging" garbage pushed on him in kindergarden for crying out loud. We teach our children to love and show respect to everyone, but we dont have to buy into your ideology dude. As for people getting bullied and beat up, welcome to reality. People get beat for lots of reasons, they are fat, where glasses, are stupid, are gay, are white, etc....stop playing the victim and pushing your crap. And grow up.
172
@169. Are you insane? Dan attacked the bible and those who believe in it. When some kids found that offensive and walked out he called them panzy azz. That is not Simply pointing out what in the bible. Surely you can see that right? And we are talking about children under the age of 18 he did this to. Thats wrong and his whole diatribe shows his immaturity and hatred towards those who dont agree with him. Why does everyone have to agree with homosexuality? They dont, plain and simple. Now beating some up or being violent is a different story, but as i noted before, that happens to lots of types of people. Dont use that as a platform to push your very narrow viewpoint.
174
For people so keen on groaning on and on about things like forgiveness and respect none of you seem up to the task of demonstrating them. Oh, and that whole "I respect you, but don't agree with your lifestyle" is crap. I have to sit through that all the time trying not to pitch a fit whenever the subject of interracial marriage comes up (I'm mixed race) and it's basically a way to deflect responsibilty before unloading your bigotry over someone. BTW, it isn't an 'agenda' to say people who think and live differently than you deserve to be able to enjoy the same rights and general respect that you get from being part of a majority. Anyways, I feel for you. I was a christian long enough to know that christianity in America has some issues, but as usual, you forget the best advice; put your own house in order first. I wish you the best of luck, though from reading your comments I doubt anyone of you here will be the ones to do it.
175
@171: "Without recourse means Dan and the homosexual liberals are pushing their ideology and agenda at will."
And Christians aren't? Sure, that's why several states are considering constitutional amendments to outlaw gay marriage. Because Christians are sitting silently on the sidelines while the Gay Juggernaut rolls over the nation. Seriously, get a grip.
"People who see things differently are lambasted, as you have shown, for disagreeing."
While homosexuals are shown the utmost in deference and respect by the Christian community. Yeah right. "Abomination," "pervert," "sick," "disgusting," "diseased," "insane," "filthy," are all intended as polite conversation when Christians use them to refer to homosexuals.
Dan talks, you talk back. You talk, Dan talks back. You have exactly as much "recourse" as he does on that score. Meanwhile he has a whole lot less practical and legal ability to live his life on a level playing field with you.
"stop playing the victim and pushing your crap."
Playing the victim? You do know that gay people do still get killed in this country just for being gay? That they get thrown out of jobs and housing (including their own parents' homes) for being gay? And that's PLAYING the victim?
If anybody is PLAYING the victim, it's you, you pathetic whiner. You sound just like the schoolyard bully who objects when teacher makes you stop spitting on the nerd.
And Christians aren't? Sure, that's why several states are considering constitutional amendments to outlaw gay marriage. Because Christians are sitting silently on the sidelines while the Gay Juggernaut rolls over the nation. Seriously, get a grip.
"People who see things differently are lambasted, as you have shown, for disagreeing."
While homosexuals are shown the utmost in deference and respect by the Christian community. Yeah right. "Abomination," "pervert," "sick," "disgusting," "diseased," "insane," "filthy," are all intended as polite conversation when Christians use them to refer to homosexuals.
Dan talks, you talk back. You talk, Dan talks back. You have exactly as much "recourse" as he does on that score. Meanwhile he has a whole lot less practical and legal ability to live his life on a level playing field with you.
"stop playing the victim and pushing your crap."
Playing the victim? You do know that gay people do still get killed in this country just for being gay? That they get thrown out of jobs and housing (including their own parents' homes) for being gay? And that's PLAYING the victim?
If anybody is PLAYING the victim, it's you, you pathetic whiner. You sound just like the schoolyard bully who objects when teacher makes you stop spitting on the nerd.
176
Re: hetero haters
Well, i have finally learned the lesson, "dont argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and win with experience".
But you are so smart! LOL!
Well, i have finally learned the lesson, "dont argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and win with experience".
But you are so smart! LOL!
178
@172 No, I'm quite sane. All he did to attack the bible was point out what is in that book.
If you disagree, tell me something he said about your sacred text that wasn't a description of the text.
Also, you are welcome to disagree with me and attack my beliefs and challenge them. That sort of discourse is the basis of any thriving democracy. If you don't want anybody to lambaste your bible, you need to make sure it stays out of public policy.
When people keep trying to make laws based on those ridiculous fairy tales, I have no recourse but to tear that despicable tome of horror you call the Bible to pieces. I don't want to have to follow the laws laid out by Bronze Age sand dwellers just because you think their particular, idiotic God myth is true.
We don't give a fuck about you living by the laws of the Bible. Go ahead. You're the ones who can't let us live secular lives. We refuse to follow the laws of that evil and immoral book. When you stop trying to force us to, this uncomfortable conversation will end.
I will be perfectly respectful of your irrational and unfounded beliefs once you get them the fuck out of our government.
If you disagree, tell me something he said about your sacred text that wasn't a description of the text.
Also, you are welcome to disagree with me and attack my beliefs and challenge them. That sort of discourse is the basis of any thriving democracy. If you don't want anybody to lambaste your bible, you need to make sure it stays out of public policy.
When people keep trying to make laws based on those ridiculous fairy tales, I have no recourse but to tear that despicable tome of horror you call the Bible to pieces. I don't want to have to follow the laws laid out by Bronze Age sand dwellers just because you think their particular, idiotic God myth is true.
We don't give a fuck about you living by the laws of the Bible. Go ahead. You're the ones who can't let us live secular lives. We refuse to follow the laws of that evil and immoral book. When you stop trying to force us to, this uncomfortable conversation will end.
I will be perfectly respectful of your irrational and unfounded beliefs once you get them the fuck out of our government.
180
Sure a hookup can lead to a longterm dating relationship, but I think it would have been good to point out that you really shouldn't expect it to. If a longterm relationship is what you want, you shouldn't settle for something you know is casual. In other words, make sure you know up front what the other person is looking for. If someone says they're only looking for something casual, move on to someone else - don't hang around hoping for a change of heart.
181
One of my closest friends was a hookup. I'd run in to her in a neighborhood bar a few times, we had crazy wild sex in her living room and kitchen while her roommates slept, and the following week spent a great weekend in bed.
She wanted to keep seeing me, I was honest that I didn't have the feelings towards her she had towards me, and we became friends.
Twenty years later, she's with a great guy. He and I are friends, I assume he doesn't know, but I have never asked, because its none of my business.
It all worked out because we were honest with each other and ourselves, that's the key to any relationship (romantic, sexual, or otherwise).
She wanted to keep seeing me, I was honest that I didn't have the feelings towards her she had towards me, and we became friends.
Twenty years later, she's with a great guy. He and I are friends, I assume he doesn't know, but I have never asked, because its none of my business.
It all worked out because we were honest with each other and ourselves, that's the key to any relationship (romantic, sexual, or otherwise).
182
Hmmm, the traveling researcher should not DTMFA in my humble opinion. Sounds like he really likes her. Sounds like she is in fact open to a certain kind of open relationship - the kind where she's completely in the dark about his extra-curricular activities.
I'd suggest a bit more communication before pulling the plug on the relationship. First, a sit-down talk about how his sexual needs aren't getting met (and neither are hers...no orgasms?!) and what he'd like to see happen going forward (greater frequency, counseling, more experimentation, etc.).
After some weeks or months, if he's still not getting satisfaction, time for another sit-down. This time, point out that we've tried XYZ, but my sexual needs aren't being met. "I really enjoy the non-sexual aspects, but with your permission, I'd like to 'cheat' as we talked about early on. After today, I'll do my best to keep any other partner a complete secret from you, if that's what you want, but I want to know you're really okay with that before I proceed."
He could also ask if there are any other parameters she'd like him to respect (don't fuck my sister or yoga teacher, please), and if she's game, maybe she'd do him the favor of explaining into a cell-phone video their new unique relationship status so that potential FWBs will know he's not a total POS.
Yes, there's a good chance if he goes through all that, he'll wind up just as single and lonely as if he'd taken Dan's advice and DedTMFA, but here are two more opportunities to salvage what's great about the relationship he's so grateful to have found.
Just my two cents.
I'd suggest a bit more communication before pulling the plug on the relationship. First, a sit-down talk about how his sexual needs aren't getting met (and neither are hers...no orgasms?!) and what he'd like to see happen going forward (greater frequency, counseling, more experimentation, etc.).
After some weeks or months, if he's still not getting satisfaction, time for another sit-down. This time, point out that we've tried XYZ, but my sexual needs aren't being met. "I really enjoy the non-sexual aspects, but with your permission, I'd like to 'cheat' as we talked about early on. After today, I'll do my best to keep any other partner a complete secret from you, if that's what you want, but I want to know you're really okay with that before I proceed."
He could also ask if there are any other parameters she'd like him to respect (don't fuck my sister or yoga teacher, please), and if she's game, maybe she'd do him the favor of explaining into a cell-phone video their new unique relationship status so that potential FWBs will know he's not a total POS.
Yes, there's a good chance if he goes through all that, he'll wind up just as single and lonely as if he'd taken Dan's advice and DedTMFA, but here are two more opportunities to salvage what's great about the relationship he's so grateful to have found.
Just my two cents.
183
Yeah, I got to about #70 before I noticed the best the advice was probably going to get was @ 66/67. Yes, STUCK, you got your permission, so get some condoms, be discreet, respectful & go do your thing. YES, to the posters after that who said 'blah she'll find out blah & be mad.' So, what would he lose? Someone who doesn't want to fuck him very often % goes back on their word. Big loss. Who cares?
184
I'm very interested about this letter about hookups, and I hope that someone else is still reading back in the archives. I have for the past few years been having many hookups and convincing myself that's what I wanted when I really was craving a solid, more nurturing relationship. However, I love sex, so even when I meet someone who seems emotionally compatible, it is very hard for me not to get into bed with them quickly, because usually I have not had sex in a while since I survive mostly on hookups, and I don't know how to turn what started as a hookup into a real relationship. What do you say, how do you approach it? I've thought that the other person in the hookup was also thinking that this was moving toward a relationship, only to try to start a conversation and have them pull away permanently. I've gotten stuck in this cycle of having hookups because i'm horny, when I don't know how to initiate a real relationship. This cycle is truly draining on your soul, to be getting what you physically want (quite easily usually) but to find such great difficulty in finding what you really need. I feel selfish posting with a plea rather than advice, but perhaps answers could help HOPE themself?
185
@178
So a thriving democracy requires bashing different ideas? How come teachers are getting fired for posting anti-gay remarks on their facebooks? Doesnt that mean he wasn't allowed to criticize a certain group....wait, in OUR thriving democracy? There in fact IS a double standard, especially in our media and academia that turns anti gay remarks into bigotry and hatred and anti religion remarks into freedom of speech and expression.
So a thriving democracy requires bashing different ideas? How come teachers are getting fired for posting anti-gay remarks on their facebooks? Doesnt that mean he wasn't allowed to criticize a certain group....wait, in OUR thriving democracy? There in fact IS a double standard, especially in our media and academia that turns anti gay remarks into bigotry and hatred and anti religion remarks into freedom of speech and expression.
186
In response to Hooking up, what if you have an ongoing hookup (one that has gone on for more than a year), and both persons treat eachother with respect and consideration (otherwise it wouldn't have gone on for as long), very GGG, but you are worried that by opening up to your hookup partner would lead you to actually like the person and become attached and begin to want more and you know the person you are hooking up with doesn't want more or to date you and can't fullfill your emotional void?
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