Savage Love Podcast
Check out the all new Savage Lovecast site!
Got a question for Dan Savage?
Call the Savage Love Podcast at 206-201-2720
or email Dan at mail@savagelove.net.
Savage Love Archives
-
May 8
Reading Comprehension Fail -
May 1
Move On -
Apr 24
No Problem -
Apr 17
Dick Holes -
Apr 10
A First
More from Dan Savage
-
Slog Overnight
-
SL Letter of the Day: Gonna Boil My Laptop After Answering This One
-
Azerbaijan's Contribution to Eurovision
-
New Gun Enthusiast...
-
Meanwhile in Toronto
Books by Dan Savage
American Savage
It Gets Better: Coming Out, Overcoming Bullying, and Creating a Life Worth Living
The Commitment: Love, Sex, Marriage, and My Family
Things I've Learned from Women Who've Dumped Me
Skipping Towards Gomorrah
The Kid: What Happened After My Boyfriend and I Decided to Go Get Pregnant
Savage Links
- Babeland
- Fleshbot
- Good Vibrations
- Joe Newton/Savage Illustrations
- Planned Parenthood
- Spreading Santorum
- Planned Parenthood's Teen Wire
- Kinsey Confidential
- Carnal Nation
- Tiny Nibbles
Want a Second Opinion?
Contact Dan Savage
Savage on YouTube
Loading...
Unscrew the Pooch
May 9, 2012
+ Enlarge this Image
Joe Newton
I am a 26-year-old straight guy. My straightness and guyness are recent revelations, and it feels amazing to be able to confidently state this. Here is my trouble: I've had gender issues for the past five years. My now ex-girlfriend of three years said she couldn't be with me anymore due to these issues. Our breakup was a result of my apathy in the bedroom, which was tied to my gender issues, and her fears of me transitioning into a woman. I can see now that my insecurities about myself caused me to be a selfish partner in many ways, but mainly in the bedroom. I now realize I was allowing my sexual kinks to get the best of me. I get very turned on by the idea of giving head to a guy, but in reality it is not something that I enjoy. I also find lingerie to be very arousing. I allowed myself to focus so heavily on those aspects of my sexuality that I became insecure in my masculinity inside and outside of the bedroom. I also ended up ignoring the majority of my sexual desires as a result of my insecurity in my gender identity. I have now stopped repressing my lust toward women in general, something I had been doing that negatively affected my ex.
I am asking you, I suppose, for some advice. I am still in love with my ex. I am prepared now to be the boyfriend that she wanted me to be. But how do I prove to her that I am no longer the apathetic, distant, and repressed lover that she was with for three years? I find myself overwhelmed with regret. She saw me as someone who couldn't do the things she needed, when in reality I was just paralyzed by my insecurities.
Found Myself Lost
You're not asking me for some advice, FML. What you're doing is handing me a dog with a bloody, torn-up ass and saying, "Hey, Dan, I totally screwed the pooch. Unscrew it for me, wouldya?" Some days, half the mail is from remorseful pooch-screwers, and I do what I can to unscrew their pooches. That's part of my job. But not every pooch can be unscrewed, FML, and your pooch looks eternally screwed to me.
It wasn't your gender issues or kinks or anxieties that screwed that pooch. You don't have to apologize for your gender issues. You were working through some serious shit. What you can be faulted for, FML, is your thoughtlessness, your inconsideration, and your neglect. You were so wrapped up in your own drama that you could barely perceive, to say nothing of meet, your girlfriend's reasonable sexual and emotional needs.
We don't have to be perfectly healthy or issue-free before entering into a relationship, of course. If that were the standard, no one would ever be in a relationship. However, we do have to be in relatively good working order, and you were not. Your girlfriend wasn't looking for an issue-free guy; no such animal exists. But she wanted a guy who could have his issues and still make an effort to meet her needs. And your poor, neglected, taken-for-granted girlfriend stuck it out for three long years, hoping you might turn into that kind of guy-with-issues, before finally calling it quits.
And damn her timing, right? Because everything magically fell into place the moment she walked out.
So what can you do now? You can tell your ex that you've come to a couple of big realizations: You know yourself to be a straight man now, and you can see that you were a terrible boyfriend then. You were so wrapped up in your own anxieties and kinks and insecurities that you couldn't meet her needs then, but you can now. The only way you prove this to her, of course, is if she takes you back. Considering the price she paid when you were struggling—inconsiderate, selfish, thoughtless, neglectful boyfriends are no fun, gender issues or no gender issues—she's likely to pass. Because life is basically one big issue after another, and she may have concluded that you're incapable of having an issue and being a decent boyfriend simultaneously.
If she doesn't take you back—if that pooch can't be unscrewed—resolve to learn from your mistakes, FML, and refrain from screwing the next pooch that comes your way.
I am a lesbian-identified bi woman who has been with my ladyfriend (also a LIBW) for seven years. She recently brought up her desire to have a threesome. I've had a handful of group-sex experiences, and I know that they can be fun but they can also go very wrong. I am worried that she isn't prepared to see me have sex with a man, and I fear that once we are in the moment, she won't be assertive enough to stop something that she may have agreed to beforehand but suddenly isn't comfortable with. What is the best way to test the waters?
Our next concern is who to invite into our bed. We would prefer it to be someone we wouldn't have to see again, so friends are out. However, I am concerned about just finding a random person on CL or Adult Friend Finder because, being in a lesbian relationship, we definitely have run across men who think we "just need the right penis." Basically, I want a man who I know is friendly with the queer community and will respect our relationship and our boundaries. Where do we look for this?
Another Bi Woman
Established couples that want safety, respect, and a measure of accountability from their very special guest sex stars, ABW, should look first to flirty friends and friendly exes. But you two, like so many threesome-seeking couples, want the perfect person to materialize immediately before sex and disappear immediately after. That means finding and vetting a stranger. And online personal ads are the best way to accomplish that. State in your profile that you're looking for someone who (1) is queer-friendly, (2) respects your relationship, and (3) doesn't think the "right" penis will turn you both straight.
Some guys will tell you whatever you want to hear, of course, which means you could wind up in bed with a man who doesn't believe any of those things. But he'll know to keep his mouth shut, ABW, and since you're not going to see him ever again, does it really matter what he thinks?
As for your fear that your girlfriend won't speak up in the moment: Address that with her, address it at length, and consider taking penis-in-either-of-your-vaginas sex off the menu for your first threesome.
I'm a 32-year-old bi gal into both sub and dom roles with men. I'm GGG and excited by trying out new-to-me stuff. I had never pondered sexless guy/guy ball busting before reading the letter from BSTD in your column last week. Now I don't know if I should thank or curse BSTD for giving ME a new kink! I think watching this would be so hot!
Bad Acronym Lass Loves Sex
I'm not one to toss that cruel "there's someone out there for everyone" bullshit around. Fact is, some people do wind up alone. But kinks usually aren't the reason. Whatever your kink might be, shy lil' kinksters, there are kinksters out there who either share it or will spark to it.
CONFIDENTIAL TO EVERYONE ON EARTH: Be sure to watch Savage U on MTV on Tuesday nights, 11 p.m./10 p.m. Central in the United States and 10 p.m. in Canada.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
@fakedansavage on Twitter
Share via
1
Where do new proverbs come from? Here, damn it. "That pooch can't be unscrewed" is going to be the "a stitch in time saves nine" of 2012.
jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
2
Oh God, I can't believe that poor girl put up with FML for as long as she did. If the poor thing went back to him I'd feel obligated to stage an intervention.
3
A sex star who should do his thing and not be seen again ... Sounds like ABW wants a man for free who should actually be paid?
4
What you're doing is handing me a dog with a bloody, torn-up ass and saying, "Hey, Dan, I totally screwed the pooch. Unscrew it for me, wouldya?"
...
I think Dan has just crossed a metaphor too far with this one. I need some brain bleach now.
...
I think Dan has just crossed a metaphor too far with this one. I need some brain bleach now.
5
@3:
I bet you think that men get paid more than women in porn too, don't you?
The world is littered with men willing to take on this task for free.
I bet you think that men get paid more than women in porn too, don't you?
The world is littered with men willing to take on this task for free.
6
FML needs some serious help. And while undergoing major head repairs, it is my understanding that relationships are not a good idea. So leave the poor woman alone. Until your therapist says its OK.
Besides, FML, you aren't going to be able to hold your GF the way she really needs it with the sleeves of your jacket buckled behind your back.
Besides, FML, you aren't going to be able to hold your GF the way she really needs it with the sleeves of your jacket buckled behind your back.
7
@5: Actually, I, too, was thinking that what ABW might want to consider going with a paid escort. Not only would she and her girlfriend be able to vet for creeps/weirdos with some additional security, and not have to worry about the disappear-after-it-is-over part, but they could be relatively assured of a clean bill of health, find someone who is down with their bi-ness, and lesbian orientation and won't try to "cure" them with his magic dick, and perhaps the girlfriend would even feel more comfortable being assertive with someone with whom a service-provider/client relationship was established. At any rate, an escort would be more likely to be sensitive to boundary-setting and checking in periodically to make sure that all parties were happy and wanted to keep going forward.
Of course there are men who would be willing to have sex with two lesbian-identified, bi women; the point is that they want to control the experience. That is a good enough reason to consider a pro.
Of course there are men who would be willing to have sex with two lesbian-identified, bi women; the point is that they want to control the experience. That is a good enough reason to consider a pro.
8
FML sounds like somebody who needs to move on. FML may not want to assume he'll be fine in the bedroom with vanilla sex, just fine thank you, each time, from now on; how does he know?
FML also sounds like somebody who needs to be upfront with the next woman he dates, or the next woman he's serious about, regarding his complex history of gender, taste, and kink: he doesn't necessarily need to date somebody who's bi, or someone who would stay with him if he did transition... but he does need to date somebody who's clearly OK with who he is and with who he has been.
(I was in a situation somewhat like FML's, more than ten years ago; I moved on and met someone better for me, I'm still biologically male with no plans to change that, and I'm quite happy with how my life turned out, overall. But I try not to call myself "straight." FML's terms for himself are of course up to him.)
FML also sounds like somebody who needs to be upfront with the next woman he dates, or the next woman he's serious about, regarding his complex history of gender, taste, and kink: he doesn't necessarily need to date somebody who's bi, or someone who would stay with him if he did transition... but he does need to date somebody who's clearly OK with who he is and with who he has been.
(I was in a situation somewhat like FML's, more than ten years ago; I moved on and met someone better for me, I'm still biologically male with no plans to change that, and I'm quite happy with how my life turned out, overall. But I try not to call myself "straight." FML's terms for himself are of course up to him.)
9
@6: I'm with Holmes. FML might seriously want to consider living alone for a while after seeing a therapist before starting any new relationships.
Eleven years after leaving an abusive spouse, I have come to fully enjoy my independence. I still identify as what Dan calls "breeder" (although I'm happily childless by choice), but I'm cool with that.
Dumb question: why do so many breeder boys have trouble with this?
Because I'm NOT pregnant and miserable?
Eleven years after leaving an abusive spouse, I have come to fully enjoy my independence. I still identify as what Dan calls "breeder" (although I'm happily childless by choice), but I'm cool with that.
Dumb question: why do so many breeder boys have trouble with this?
Because I'm NOT pregnant and miserable?
10
I think that BALLS' original letter, as the SLLOTD, ended with her wanting to watch and then have sex with the bustee. It was sort of a sweet ending and I'm sorry that part was left out.
11
@3 You're saying the guy would feel like he needs to be paid to participate in a FMF threeway with two bi chicks? Shit, most guys would feel like they already won the fucking lottery.
12
FML needs to communicate how he feels asap and if the ex doesn't feel the same way, he has to move on immediately before wasting more time on some warped fantasy about the past. He has to rip it off like a bandaid, expose his feelings and if he gets rejected and it hurts that's ok, but it will hurt so much more to continue to hold onto something that isn't real. The thing about holding onto the past is that you can make it mean anything you want- you can hold onto your version of the story as if it's true.
FML is saying he's ready to be the man she needed then, assuming he even knows that what she wanted then is still what she wants now. He has no idea who this woman is anymore, b/c they're no longer intimate or lovers. He has this static, fixed image of her that he believes is real. It's just an image that he formed years ago,it's not reality.
The ex is a person. She's not an image, she's a person. She has some agency of her own as a woman and perhaps she even did some exploring of her own (without him!). For all he knows she's got some of her own kinks that have nothing to do with his. They might not be compatible in any way, shape or form.
When you're holding onto the past you don't have to learn anything about yourself, b/c you already have your version of the story cemented in stone. Take a chance, learn something and move the %^&*( on with life already.
FML is saying he's ready to be the man she needed then, assuming he even knows that what she wanted then is still what she wants now. He has no idea who this woman is anymore, b/c they're no longer intimate or lovers. He has this static, fixed image of her that he believes is real. It's just an image that he formed years ago,it's not reality.
The ex is a person. She's not an image, she's a person. She has some agency of her own as a woman and perhaps she even did some exploring of her own (without him!). For all he knows she's got some of her own kinks that have nothing to do with his. They might not be compatible in any way, shape or form.
When you're holding onto the past you don't have to learn anything about yourself, b/c you already have your version of the story cemented in stone. Take a chance, learn something and move the %^&*( on with life already.
13
I wish ABW had clarified exactly why a woman is off the table for the threesome, as FF/F could theoretically be a step towards engaging the potential perils of FF/M. It's easy enough to think of various reasons why their seeking FF/M would be presented the way it is, but some reasons would be much more exclusive of FF/F, which would seem to have philosophical advantages for ABW at least, perhaps enough to overcome whatever downside it might carry.
14
ABW's letter is a bit confusing. What is a lesbian-identified bi? The fact that they are calling themselves bi would seem to mean that they are identifying as bi, no? If they had said a lesbian-leaning bi, then I might understand it a bit better. Also, what would be specifically bothersome about watching the LW do it with a guy that the lady friend would not be prepared to see? Would she behave differently than with the lady friend? So many questions.
15
Dan, I'm sad to have not seen it addressed in your column at all (apologies if I just missed it), but out here in North Carolina, the state just voted to ban same-sex marriage and any form of civil union. IN THE CONSTITUTION.
It is sad, really, really sad. And I'm only a temporary transplant here, but I want to cry. I read your column, watch your speeches and the "It Gets Better" videos and I feel hope. Then something like this happens (with a clear majority) and I surge into depression.
It is sad, really, really sad. And I'm only a temporary transplant here, but I want to cry. I read your column, watch your speeches and the "It Gets Better" videos and I feel hope. Then something like this happens (with a clear majority) and I surge into depression.
16
I doubt that FML is suddenly "in good working order." His dramatic embrace of his gender and sexual orientation sounds like an epiphany of convenience--not unlike the weepy contrition that an abusive asshole has when his abused wife or girlfriend finally musters the courage to leave. I see a pattern of manipulation and control and hope his ex-girlfriend runs away if he tries to patch things up.
ABW and her partner will have a flood of candidates to choose from. They can be as choosy as they want, and should demand references from guys that pass the first rounds of elimination.
And @15: I was a little surprised that Dan has spent so little time on the North Carolina referendum, but the polling indicated it was a hopeless cause. All of North Carolina's neighboring states have similar laws--they've chosen to be backwards, and the rest of us should refrain from traveling there, or from patronizing businesses there.
ABW and her partner will have a flood of candidates to choose from. They can be as choosy as they want, and should demand references from guys that pass the first rounds of elimination.
And @15: I was a little surprised that Dan has spent so little time on the North Carolina referendum, but the polling indicated it was a hopeless cause. All of North Carolina's neighboring states have similar laws--they've chosen to be backwards, and the rest of us should refrain from traveling there, or from patronizing businesses there.
17
@Dynomite: As a Californian I know what you mean (grrrrrrrrr), but it was pretty much what was expected. Still bad about NC though.
If you want blow by blow outrage you should check out Dan's bloggie pal http://www.joemygod.blogspot.com/ He helps to keep my umbrage up, every day.
Fucking GRRRRRRRRRR!
If you want blow by blow outrage you should check out Dan's bloggie pal http://www.joemygod.blogspot.com/ He helps to keep my umbrage up, every day.
Fucking GRRRRRRRRRR!
18
FML doesn't say what turns on his ex, what they had/have in common, or why he wants her back. It does sound like he loved her because she put up with him, and that's the part of the relationship (her putting up with him) that he misses.
Still, the standard answer to how to prove to her (or anyone) that you're no longer the apathetic, distant, and repressed lover that she needed is to start by proving to her that you can be a non-apathetic, non-distant, and non-repressed friend. First prove to her that you're putting her needs first. If that means loving her so much that you let her go, do it.
The other standard advice on how to get over someone, no matter what the reasons for the break-up, is to find someone new. You feel like you're over your issues now? Great! Get back into the game and start dating.
Still, the standard answer to how to prove to her (or anyone) that you're no longer the apathetic, distant, and repressed lover that she needed is to start by proving to her that you can be a non-apathetic, non-distant, and non-repressed friend. First prove to her that you're putting her needs first. If that means loving her so much that you let her go, do it.
The other standard advice on how to get over someone, no matter what the reasons for the break-up, is to find someone new. You feel like you're over your issues now? Great! Get back into the game and start dating.
19
@15 Dan probably submitted the final text of this column before the result had come in - I' expect him to address the issue on Slog or in next week's column.
20
Dan, thank you so much for the first letter. I don't know what it is about crossdressers, but something about the pink fog turns so many of them into selfish narcissistic attention whores. They want and chase after male attention, but then don't like the reality of it. And then after neglecting their girlfriends for months, they get surprised when the girlfriends bail.
While being GGG with crossdressing is becoming more common with women, especially young women, it's still rare enough that if a straight CD does come across a woman who likes it, he should treat her like a queen. At least FML is young so he has lots of opportunities ahead of him; hopefully he will learn from his mistake, and excellent advice given to him.
But he shouldn't be too hard on himself. It's best for those CD's who are obsessed with men to actually go out and indulge, because some do turn out to be gay after all. Try the shoe on, because that's an even crueler thing to put a woman through. It's good that he tested it out.
While being GGG with crossdressing is becoming more common with women, especially young women, it's still rare enough that if a straight CD does come across a woman who likes it, he should treat her like a queen. At least FML is young so he has lots of opportunities ahead of him; hopefully he will learn from his mistake, and excellent advice given to him.
But he shouldn't be too hard on himself. It's best for those CD's who are obsessed with men to actually go out and indulge, because some do turn out to be gay after all. Try the shoe on, because that's an even crueler thing to put a woman through. It's good that he tested it out.
21
@ 5 & 11: Apocryphal Hollywood story: When Clark Gable was asked why he paid prostitutes for sex, as he could have his choice of women for free, he replied, "I don't pay 'em to sleep with me. I pay 'em to leave the next day."
22
It is a good thing ABW did not include an e-mail address, her inbox would be flooded with guys wanting to fulfill that roll. I hope she doesn't try standing up in a crowded bar and asking all of the guys, "Who wants to have a threesome with two lesbians?", there may be a stampede. Most straight men would consider that opportunity akin to winning the lottery, the real problem will be narrowing down your choices.
Now, how do I volunteer?
Now, how do I volunteer?
24
@14: A lesbian-identified bisexual is a woman who is sexually attracted to both men and women but who wears the lesbian team uniform. She refers to herself as a lesbian, and most of her partners are probably women, but she is capable of being attracted to men as well. That's what this straight-identified man understands it to mean anyway.
25
That ball-busting guy from the other week should have signed as
"Bustin' Makes Me Feel Good!"
♫ Nah nah nah nah nah nah na-na-nah-na nah ♫
"Bustin' Makes Me Feel Good!"
♫ Nah nah nah nah nah nah na-na-nah-na nah ♫
26
@18 (Crinoline):
You said: "FML doesn't say what turns on his ex, what they had/have in common, or why he wants her back. It does sound like he loved her because she put up with him, and that's the part of the relationship (her putting up with him) that he misses."
He doesn't have to say what turns on his ex, what they had in common, or why he wants her back. He also doesn't tell us he has a wheat allergy, or that he has two adorable golden retrievers, or that his ex-girlfriend snorts when she laughs. Because none of that is the issue. Dan doesn't need to know that and neither do we. He gave plenty of relevant information: he was a selfish, disengaged, apathetic boyfriend, who was so consumed with his own insecurities and issues that he completely neglected his girlfriend in many ways, but in the sexual arena in particular. She eventually got fed up and left. Now he wants her back. The end.
Your criticism sounds as if you aren't sure that FML is worthy of his ex-girlfriend's love, as if you don't believe he loved (or loves) her for any reason you validate, and that he needs to prove to you and us that his love is legitimate and passes some kind of test for Dan or you or us to want to help him regain his girlfriend, but that's not the point of an advice column. Of course, we're all free to speculate as much as we want to about underlying motives, but the tendency here in the comments thread to read what isn't there as a means to judge the writer or the person being written about and then to offer advice or, more often, to spew anger that comes from the commentator's own issues and own life experience (not that I'm suggesting you're doing the latter here), seems to be getting more frequent.
FML asked for specific advice (how do I convince an ex I still love to believe I have changed and get her to take me back), and Dan and others are responding (sometimes you can't. Work on fixing yourself and try to be a better boyfriend in the next relationship.) Tennyson had it right: ours not to reason why.
More...
You said: "FML doesn't say what turns on his ex, what they had/have in common, or why he wants her back. It does sound like he loved her because she put up with him, and that's the part of the relationship (her putting up with him) that he misses."
He doesn't have to say what turns on his ex, what they had in common, or why he wants her back. He also doesn't tell us he has a wheat allergy, or that he has two adorable golden retrievers, or that his ex-girlfriend snorts when she laughs. Because none of that is the issue. Dan doesn't need to know that and neither do we. He gave plenty of relevant information: he was a selfish, disengaged, apathetic boyfriend, who was so consumed with his own insecurities and issues that he completely neglected his girlfriend in many ways, but in the sexual arena in particular. She eventually got fed up and left. Now he wants her back. The end.
Your criticism sounds as if you aren't sure that FML is worthy of his ex-girlfriend's love, as if you don't believe he loved (or loves) her for any reason you validate, and that he needs to prove to you and us that his love is legitimate and passes some kind of test for Dan or you or us to want to help him regain his girlfriend, but that's not the point of an advice column. Of course, we're all free to speculate as much as we want to about underlying motives, but the tendency here in the comments thread to read what isn't there as a means to judge the writer or the person being written about and then to offer advice or, more often, to spew anger that comes from the commentator's own issues and own life experience (not that I'm suggesting you're doing the latter here), seems to be getting more frequent.
FML asked for specific advice (how do I convince an ex I still love to believe I have changed and get her to take me back), and Dan and others are responding (sometimes you can't. Work on fixing yourself and try to be a better boyfriend in the next relationship.) Tennyson had it right: ours not to reason why.
27
@11, ABW specifically said she doesn't want a random guy off the street, and gave her reasons. It seems like an escort is exactly what she's looking for. Escorts don't get hired for their willingness to have sex, they get hired for their willingness maintain a customer service relationship with the client.
29
26-nocute-- Nah, I didn't mean my comment to sound like criticism. I meant it to be background to the advice I gave. Dan and others did a fine job of pointing out that he was selfish. I agree with that. I went on to suggest that the best way to prove to her that he's no longer selfish is to stop being selfish. A good place to start is to take inventory of what she'd like. Then, given the new reality that they're now broken up, see what he can do to give her what she'd like-- if he can. That may be impossible, but it might be worth a try. I know that I've been in the situation where I broke up with a man because he wasn't the man I needed him to be. When he changed, I didn't go running back to him, but it did mean a lot to me to see that he made the effort.
30
ABW should absolutely consider the "professional" option. I am a straight man with a bi wife. Our version of "monogamish" involves the occasional threesome with an escort as our "guest star". We have never had a bad experience, and have met some really wonderful people, and have established ongoing, friendly (but always at a certain professional distance), relationships with a couple of them. The fundamentally commercial nature of the encounter removes (for us, at least) any emotional baggage and lets you focus on the experience.
32
all of you saying that the lesbian couple can have their pick of the litter, guys, lined up around the block, etc.: you are assuming these women are reasonably hot. i would not assume that. not saying they aren't, just that it has been in no way established or even hinted at. i know a man who tried with all his might to get some men into the bedroom with his gf (who, if she wasn't wearing a dress, you would assume was a not-particularly-good-looking man), and was not successful.
33
So . . . are straight/bi male sex workers a real thing? It just sounds like a bad movie with William Baldwin.
34
Not anyone on earth, Dan. You're program isn't available in Spain from what I can tell, probably anywhere in Europe. Thanks MTV.
35
Looking for a 'third' for the lesbian duo is going to be work... Yeah, they want just the right guy, but don't want to draw form their existing crowd. So the question is: how hard is it to find a new sex partner when you have standards - and where do we go?
Uh, it's pretty god damn hard, and if you think you can merely click the right boxes on a sex-site, run the search and magically get your guy delivered without time and effort, I got some news for you. It's gonna demand effort.
This letter just seemes so naive and self-involved... I'm betting they won't actually jump the hurdles that are required and will just give in to a guy of convienence, or the worng guy, or no guy at all...
Uh, it's pretty god damn hard, and if you think you can merely click the right boxes on a sex-site, run the search and magically get your guy delivered without time and effort, I got some news for you. It's gonna demand effort.
This letter just seemes so naive and self-involved... I'm betting they won't actually jump the hurdles that are required and will just give in to a guy of convienence, or the worng guy, or no guy at all...
36
@1 - Please, PLEASE stop spamming these comments with links to your shitty blog! Its lame of you to try and crib Dan's traffic.
38
@16 - Right? I mean, c'mon, who has "issues with their sexuality" and ends up deciding they are straight? Anyone? Ever? Really? Maybe it just wasn't the right dick, or the right time, or he was tortured by his girlfriend's leaving him and had a stupid and regretful single sexual encounter that led you to believe he actually doesn't want cock? I don't get it. No one goes drama-free cold turkey. She better say no. And how does he even think he has much right to ask? Give her a year or two off at least. Wow.
@32. Guys don't care about hot so much if there are two of you. They really, really don't. That's why it pays to go hunting together!
@32. Guys don't care about hot so much if there are two of you. They really, really don't. That's why it pays to go hunting together!
39
-36. Jill's comments are almost always germaine to the specific SavageLove column. Her blog regularly links back to Stranger material. Do you have something against married women with a healthy, curious, satisfying relationship with their own sexuality?
40
ABW: Find a queer guy! Bi guys do exist, and when this here bi dyke decided to loose her gold star, I found it was great to go through with someone who was on my "team" and I didn't get any bullshit from.
@35 - That's pretty much exactly what my wife and I do all the time (with ladies). Some experiences are more fun than others, but it's always a good time and usually not much effort. Write a good ad and you'll get good responses, and it's a lot easier than you'd think to detect bullshit in an email exchange or two. And I found my very own unicorn, a queer bottom boy who got off on my masculinity, almost immediately on OKC.
@35 - That's pretty much exactly what my wife and I do all the time (with ladies). Some experiences are more fun than others, but it's always a good time and usually not much effort. Write a good ad and you'll get good responses, and it's a lot easier than you'd think to detect bullshit in an email exchange or two. And I found my very own unicorn, a queer bottom boy who got off on my masculinity, almost immediately on OKC.
41
@ABW: Oh Dear $DEITY....yes, there are men who would love to be the guest star...me, pick me!!!, meee!!!! I have lesbian friends and lesbian exes and this never, ever happens to me, in spite of the fact that I'm respectful, don't believe I have a magic penis and am queer friendly. I know, Dan gets all those letters too.
Yes, they want two diametrically opposed things: anonymous, one time interaction with someone who they want to know a whole bunch of tangentially related stuff about.
@FML - I don't have experience with the gender confusion thing, but I have plenty of experience with dead relationships where I contributed my share of BS to the the breakup. Yes, in the pain of coming to grips with things being over, we all find "clarity" and are ready to swear off the demon gin (or whatever) for life...kind of like born-again religion. The problem is that if it's only driven by the guilt/pain of the moment, it won't sustain. Much better to take some serious alone time to get to a place - uncoupled - where you have significant, stable and sustainable peace with yourself and your identity.
Yes, they want two diametrically opposed things: anonymous, one time interaction with someone who they want to know a whole bunch of tangentially related stuff about.
@FML - I don't have experience with the gender confusion thing, but I have plenty of experience with dead relationships where I contributed my share of BS to the the breakup. Yes, in the pain of coming to grips with things being over, we all find "clarity" and are ready to swear off the demon gin (or whatever) for life...kind of like born-again religion. The problem is that if it's only driven by the guilt/pain of the moment, it won't sustain. Much better to take some serious alone time to get to a place - uncoupled - where you have significant, stable and sustainable peace with yourself and your identity.
42
@41
1. You meant bi, right? I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that lesbian friends won't want to sleep with you despite all your lovely qualities. Anyway I wish you luck.
2. I could not agree with you more on your second point. I personally feel there are some kinds of progress that can only be made as a single person, and other kinds that can only be made in a relationship. I know way too many people who treat being single like some sort of awful curse and I think it's to their detriment.
1. You meant bi, right? I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that lesbian friends won't want to sleep with you despite all your lovely qualities. Anyway I wish you luck.
2. I could not agree with you more on your second point. I personally feel there are some kinds of progress that can only be made as a single person, and other kinds that can only be made in a relationship. I know way too many people who treat being single like some sort of awful curse and I think it's to their detriment.
43
All these people voting against gay marriage, but all this coming-in-pants about having it off with two lesbians. Double standard much?
44
FML: If you beg your ex to come back to you, it'll prove you haven't changed. A healthy person lets relationships go when they've come to an end.
It sounds to me like you may want your ex back only because she dropped you, and you want only what (who) you can't have. If that's the case, get some counseling before you pursue your next girlfriend, and get your head on straight. Good luck.
It sounds to me like you may want your ex back only because she dropped you, and you want only what (who) you can't have. If that's the case, get some counseling before you pursue your next girlfriend, and get your head on straight. Good luck.
45
@30 can you give some tips to selecting an escort for a MFF threesome? My biggest concern is making sure the woman hasn't been trafficked, coerced, or exploited in any way. Isn't it technically illegal in Seattle? A how-to guide would be helpful if anyone knows of one. Thanks.
46
@45
It's kind of hard to guarantee that the pro you're hiring didn't come into the business in an unfortunate way. Especially since a lot of women in those kinds of situations don't exactly make those things obvious. I'd guess that your best bet is find someone that is self-employed - who works independently and not for an agency. A friend of mine worked for an escort service and highly reccomended it, but it's definitely not uncommon for those businesses to be exploitative.
It's kind of hard to guarantee that the pro you're hiring didn't come into the business in an unfortunate way. Especially since a lot of women in those kinds of situations don't exactly make those things obvious. I'd guess that your best bet is find someone that is self-employed - who works independently and not for an agency. A friend of mine worked for an escort service and highly reccomended it, but it's definitely not uncommon for those businesses to be exploitative.
47
@45 A good place to start is TheEroticReview, or a similar review site. Look at Seattle ads on the site, then cross-reference anyone interesting by reading their reviews. Here's a list of common acronyms in the reviews: http://forum.myredbook.com/dcforum2/DCFo…
Then cross-reference again by making sure at least some of those reviewers are real people who have written reviews of numerous other escorts. After doing that, you can be confident that the escort you contact is not law-enforcement trying to trap you.
Next, reach out to the escort, be polite, and give her all the information she needs to vet you. (Yes, your real name & place of work.) Never suggest anything illegal. You and your partner would like to invite her to dinner and dessert; you expect it to take 3 hours. You understand that she expects to be compensated for coming on this date. After you meet, after you have a drink together or dinner, sudden lust may happen to overtake the three of you. Since you are all consenting adults, this is not illegal, and can be quite nice :-)
Then cross-reference again by making sure at least some of those reviewers are real people who have written reviews of numerous other escorts. After doing that, you can be confident that the escort you contact is not law-enforcement trying to trap you.
Next, reach out to the escort, be polite, and give her all the information she needs to vet you. (Yes, your real name & place of work.) Never suggest anything illegal. You and your partner would like to invite her to dinner and dessert; you expect it to take 3 hours. You understand that she expects to be compensated for coming on this date. After you meet, after you have a drink together or dinner, sudden lust may happen to overtake the three of you. Since you are all consenting adults, this is not illegal, and can be quite nice :-)
48
@46 yes - forgot to mention - look for people who are independent. I gather that they are generally choosing to be there, though as with many of us, this might not be their top choice if all jobs paid the same.
49
FML,
You're still delusional. You can call yourself straight, but you're not. Straight guys don't like thinking about sucking cock. They love lingerie, but only on women. They don't ignore women prancing around in their bedrooms.
You have more issues than Time magazine. Your ex is only a dream of returning to your straight fantasy. She understands you and doesn't want you.
Realize what you really want, and go for it.
You're still delusional. You can call yourself straight, but you're not. Straight guys don't like thinking about sucking cock. They love lingerie, but only on women. They don't ignore women prancing around in their bedrooms.
You have more issues than Time magazine. Your ex is only a dream of returning to your straight fantasy. She understands you and doesn't want you.
Realize what you really want, and go for it.
50
@49 my straight, dominant husband looks great wearing panties & sucking my cock. Who died and made you king of enforcing gender stereotypes?
51
@50
"my straight, dominant husband looks great wearing panties & sucking my cock"
Dying. Please make that your bumper sticker.
"my straight, dominant husband looks great wearing panties & sucking my cock"
Dying. Please make that your bumper sticker.
52
This is FML here. I just wanted to clarify that we were together for a little over a year and a half, not 3 years. I'm not sure why he changed that.
Anyways, Thank you all for any responses you've taken the time to write. I do appreciate it. I am continuing therapy but I do truly feel much more comfortable with myself after coming to a few big realizations about some fundamental truths. And I am not pursuing my ex, I understand that the only possibility of a romantic future for us is with time, probably lots of time.
Anyways, Thank you all for any responses you've taken the time to write. I do appreciate it. I am continuing therapy but I do truly feel much more comfortable with myself after coming to a few big realizations about some fundamental truths. And I am not pursuing my ex, I understand that the only possibility of a romantic future for us is with time, probably lots of time.
53
This is FML here. I just wanted to clarify that we were together for a little over a year and a half, not 3 years. I'm not sure why he changed that.
Anyways, Thank you all for any responses you've taken the time to write. I do appreciate it. I am continuing therapy but I do truly feel much more comfortable with myself after coming to a few big realizations about some fundamental truths. And I am not pursuing my ex, I understand that the only possibility of a romantic future for us is with time, probably lots of time.
Anyways, Thank you all for any responses you've taken the time to write. I do appreciate it. I am continuing therapy but I do truly feel much more comfortable with myself after coming to a few big realizations about some fundamental truths. And I am not pursuing my ex, I understand that the only possibility of a romantic future for us is with time, probably lots of time.
54
Hey Efemel,
Good for you for doing some hard work. Being comfortable with yourself is a big and an important step to take. Understanding and accepting some fundamental truths is worthwhile, even if it isn't always easy. Just understand that this work is being done for you and your benefit alone. It's true that something true and beneficial may often have ripple effects, but they can't be predicted and you need to seek virtue as its own reward. And who knows how much better things will be.
Good for you for doing some hard work. Being comfortable with yourself is a big and an important step to take. Understanding and accepting some fundamental truths is worthwhile, even if it isn't always easy. Just understand that this work is being done for you and your benefit alone. It's true that something true and beneficial may often have ripple effects, but they can't be predicted and you need to seek virtue as its own reward. And who knows how much better things will be.
55
@amen to that. Mental images of zoophiliac rape are really not what I need with my morning coffee. Gah.
In a way FML is like a lot of guys and gals; he basically refused to address the issues in a relationship until it cost him that relationship, and now suddenly seeing the costs of ignoring those issues has made him motivated to change.
If indeed he's woken up to his situation I think that's great, but the waters are likely too poisoned with the ex to make much of a difference there. I think maybe he needs some alone time, and perhaps a dose of actual therapy, so he can go into the next relationship fresh and ready.
In a way FML is like a lot of guys and gals; he basically refused to address the issues in a relationship until it cost him that relationship, and now suddenly seeing the costs of ignoring those issues has made him motivated to change.
If indeed he's woken up to his situation I think that's great, but the waters are likely too poisoned with the ex to make much of a difference there. I think maybe he needs some alone time, and perhaps a dose of actual therapy, so he can go into the next relationship fresh and ready.
56
grr crap, I just missed FML's response. Seems he's doing everything right, so my comment was basically some wasted bits.
57
I've now reread FML's letter while disregarding the headline and Dan's answer. I'm revising my earlier comments. This comes down to 2 people not being right for each other. I'm not blaming FML for being selfish. He may have been, but that's not the point. I'm not taking him to task for having issues or for getting over them or for not getting over them or whatever. The bottom line is that a lot of times relationships don't last because the people involved gave it their best shot, and they just don't click. Time plays a big part in this. Maybe it would have worked if they'd met years earlier or years later or when one or the other had had other experiences and different revelations. But this comes down to FML and his girlfriend not working together. It's time to move on and find someone you're more compatible with.
58
You meant bi, right? I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that lesbian friends won't want to sleep with you despite all your lovely qualities.
Well, I would say yes, I meant "bi", but in fact at least two of these "lesbian" friends mentioned occasionally wanting to sleep with men for the sex! They self-identified as lesbian - but had bi behaviors, which is kind of what ABW sounds like. I dunno...being the guest sex toy just sounds great. If one prefers to be dominant, she can use her sex toy on me. I promise, I won't care what labels they use for their sexuality!
Anyway I wish you luck.
Luck? Who needs stinking luck! I have all those lovely qualities...
@FML - the follow up was nice; it is possible to really love someone and still not be right for them, or them for you. It's a big old cliche, but if you love someone, set them free to be happy. That's the true gift of love: making their happiness your priority. Best of luck and give it time; you never know.
Well, I would say yes, I meant "bi", but in fact at least two of these "lesbian" friends mentioned occasionally wanting to sleep with men for the sex! They self-identified as lesbian - but had bi behaviors, which is kind of what ABW sounds like. I dunno...being the guest sex toy just sounds great. If one prefers to be dominant, she can use her sex toy on me. I promise, I won't care what labels they use for their sexuality!
Anyway I wish you luck.
Luck? Who needs stinking luck! I have all those lovely qualities...
@FML - the follow up was nice; it is possible to really love someone and still not be right for them, or them for you. It's a big old cliche, but if you love someone, set them free to be happy. That's the true gift of love: making their happiness your priority. Best of luck and give it time; you never know.
59
@58
Totally, yeah I identify as straight but have occaisionally gotten with women 'just for the sex'. So I gotcha.
As for the luck, I believe you when you say you have those qualities (based on your previous posts/demeanour) but
a. you said it hadn't worked yet
b. a little luck never hurt anyone, did it?
Totally, yeah I identify as straight but have occaisionally gotten with women 'just for the sex'. So I gotcha.
As for the luck, I believe you when you say you have those qualities (based on your previous posts/demeanour) but
a. you said it hadn't worked yet
b. a little luck never hurt anyone, did it?
60
@49: straight men love lingerie, but only on women? surely you've heard the statistics on male cross-dressers by now--they're PREDOMINANTLY STRAIGHT. don't believe me? google it. i can't be bothered to spoon feed you the information you are so willfully lacking.
61
Erica,
I didn't know you had a cock! You've been withholding that. Tell us about it. Did it interfere with your childbirths?
I didn't know you had a cock! You've been withholding that. Tell us about it. Did it interfere with your childbirths?
62
@30, @47 covered it quite well. We've always contacted independent providers who have a strong web presence and have been vetted and well-reviewed on sites like TER. Then we take the time to get to know each person (to the extent possible) via e-mail and phone calls. We book extended time, and have dinner or drinks to start to make sure everyone is comfortable. Then we just relax and enjoy each other.
64
Ellrosa,
I'm familiar with straight CDs. But coupled with cock-sucking fantasies and attempts, and disinterest in his gf, things become pretty clear.
I'm familiar with straight CDs. But coupled with cock-sucking fantasies and attempts, and disinterest in his gf, things become pretty clear.
65
@59 - No, sadly, lightning has not yet struck. I haven't exactly been searching for it, because I pretty much think it's one of those situations where you can't really apply for the job so much as you just get picked.
You're absolutely right: a little luck is essential to everything - for success in anything, you have to have an opportunity (luck), be able to recognize the opportunity and be prepared to take advantage of the opportunity. We can really only control the latter two items.
You're absolutely right: a little luck is essential to everything - for success in anything, you have to have an opportunity (luck), be able to recognize the opportunity and be prepared to take advantage of the opportunity. We can really only control the latter two items.
66
Gay guys are just not into wearing lingerie, having their partner wear lingerie, or chicks with dicks for that matter. These are common straight guy kinks. The market has spoken - porn producers have known this for a long time, and don't even attempt to market these fetishes to gay guys.
67
Look at all this labeling and pinning down: Gay guys like _______. No they don't. Only straight guys like _________. He says he's straight, but he likes ___________, so he must be gay. I'm a ______, but I like _________. Then you can't be _______; you must be __________. No, I'm _______ because I feel __________. But you do _________, so you can't be __________. Well, I identify as ______, but I like _______. But ________ won't have anything to do with me because they say I must be _____ and they're afraid I'll leave for a ___________.
Sheesh.
We are people. We like whom we like. We like to do what we like to do. We fall in love with whom we fall in love.
Why must we slap a designator on everything. Don't presume to tell someone else who he or she is, or what he or she is. Give them credit for knowing their own sexuality and preferences more than you do.
Sheesh.
We are people. We like whom we like. We like to do what we like to do. We fall in love with whom we fall in love.
Why must we slap a designator on everything. Don't presume to tell someone else who he or she is, or what he or she is. Give them credit for knowing their own sexuality and preferences more than you do.
70
Really? You advise sex with a friend or friendly ex before a friendly stranger for threesomes? This is confusing to me since up to this point the only common advice that I've heard from kinky people across the board on this subject was to make absolutely sure that you do not bring in a friend or an ex to a threesome. That's the only rule. Whaaaat.....
71
my@63, it's younger than my children and lives in the toybag, but otherwise, spot on.
FML @53, thanks for writing back. Here's what gave me comfort, as I learned about my husband's interest in gender-bending:
a. his obvious obsession with breasts;
b. his satisfaction with his penis;
c. his continued love of PIV (his p/my v);
d. the fact that his interest was sexual, rather than indicating anything about his day-to-day identity.
If you continue to have these fantasies, but want to build a relationship with a straight woman, try thinking about what you can honestly say that will help reassure her that you like yourself and intend to stay pretty much the same as when she met you.
FML @53, thanks for writing back. Here's what gave me comfort, as I learned about my husband's interest in gender-bending:
a. his obvious obsession with breasts;
b. his satisfaction with his penis;
c. his continued love of PIV (his p/my v);
d. the fact that his interest was sexual, rather than indicating anything about his day-to-day identity.
If you continue to have these fantasies, but want to build a relationship with a straight woman, try thinking about what you can honestly say that will help reassure her that you like yourself and intend to stay pretty much the same as when she met you.
72
@57
I think you are right. The timing of our relationship was definitely not on either of our sides.
@71
Thank you for sharing that with me. These are a lot of things that I am beginning to accept about myself that I was insecure about before. I wasn't willing to admit to myself that my feelings are of a purely sexual nature for whatever reason.
I think you are right. The timing of our relationship was definitely not on either of our sides.
@71
Thank you for sharing that with me. These are a lot of things that I am beginning to accept about myself that I was insecure about before. I wasn't willing to admit to myself that my feelings are of a purely sexual nature for whatever reason.
73
Dan here. I sometimes change a detail or two in the letters to protect people's privacy, throw friends who might read column off the scent, etc.
74
E,
"My straight, dominant husband looks great wearing panties & sucking my cock"
Hold it. Sucking a dildo on a beautiful woman is not like the cock-sucking fantasies FML has.
Doesn't anyone get it? FML admits to having had gender identity issues. Now, hurrah!, he's straight. He's happy. He's cured. He doesn't have to deal with any gay/TV issues.
Hasn't' anyone heard this story before?
FML,
Is your therapist Marcus Bachman?
"My straight, dominant husband looks great wearing panties & sucking my cock"
Hold it. Sucking a dildo on a beautiful woman is not like the cock-sucking fantasies FML has.
Doesn't anyone get it? FML admits to having had gender identity issues. Now, hurrah!, he's straight. He's happy. He's cured. He doesn't have to deal with any gay/TV issues.
Hasn't' anyone heard this story before?
FML,
Is your therapist Marcus Bachman?
75
Thanks Dan. I should've figured that's why. And thank you again for answering my e-mail.
@74
I'm not going to argue over comments. I do find it curious how you feel like you know me so well though.
@74
I'm not going to argue over comments. I do find it curious how you feel like you know me so well though.
76
@75
I wouldn't worry about it, he's sort of a resident troll.
Anyway, glad you took the advice - best of luck in the future!
I wouldn't worry about it, he's sort of a resident troll.
Anyway, glad you took the advice - best of luck in the future!
78
I'm 99% sure that Fml/efemel is my ex boyfriend.
I just read the letter today and read through all the comments. I've been a reader for a long time and have drafted many letters to Dan myself while trying to come to terms with the state of our relationship. I never sent any of them because I was pretty sure what Dan would say about the situation. I just couldn't accept the state of things for a long time and battled with myself and my 'inner Dan Savage'.
I just wanted to thank you for your response, as it probably helped me as much as it did my ex. When I saw what was obviously a letter from my partner surface in the column, I was shocked and nervous. But I found your response and all the comments to be so helpful and I know in the end, giving my partner the space to discover who they really are (whether they now know for sure or not)was the best I could have done given the circumstances.
I also had to learn to be strong enough to realize that despite good intentions and much open communication, my needs, which I had expressed and waited to be fulfilled, sexual and otherwise, were not going to be met. And in the end we both deserve to be in a partnership where our wants and needs, sexual and otherwise, are able to be met.
I do expect people to come with their own issues which is why I held on for close to two years. I tried to be ggg, and put into practice all the things I'd learned over the years of reading your column. But after many months of heartache, and feeling for so long like I was somehow less than worthy of my fairly vanilla desires, I came to the tough decision that for my own sanity, I had to walk.
It was such a difficult thing to do, to put myself first as well as to accept that my ex was probably better off working things out on their own. But I fought it out for as long as I could, and I wanted to thank you because your response truly brings me some comfort.
FML, I know you'll see this too, and I really hope that you do in fact continue to find peace, stability and happiness with yourself, to work through your issues, and that in the future we can rebuild a friendship.
More...
I just read the letter today and read through all the comments. I've been a reader for a long time and have drafted many letters to Dan myself while trying to come to terms with the state of our relationship. I never sent any of them because I was pretty sure what Dan would say about the situation. I just couldn't accept the state of things for a long time and battled with myself and my 'inner Dan Savage'.
I just wanted to thank you for your response, as it probably helped me as much as it did my ex. When I saw what was obviously a letter from my partner surface in the column, I was shocked and nervous. But I found your response and all the comments to be so helpful and I know in the end, giving my partner the space to discover who they really are (whether they now know for sure or not)was the best I could have done given the circumstances.
I also had to learn to be strong enough to realize that despite good intentions and much open communication, my needs, which I had expressed and waited to be fulfilled, sexual and otherwise, were not going to be met. And in the end we both deserve to be in a partnership where our wants and needs, sexual and otherwise, are able to be met.
I do expect people to come with their own issues which is why I held on for close to two years. I tried to be ggg, and put into practice all the things I'd learned over the years of reading your column. But after many months of heartache, and feeling for so long like I was somehow less than worthy of my fairly vanilla desires, I came to the tough decision that for my own sanity, I had to walk.
It was such a difficult thing to do, to put myself first as well as to accept that my ex was probably better off working things out on their own. But I fought it out for as long as I could, and I wanted to thank you because your response truly brings me some comfort.
FML, I know you'll see this too, and I really hope that you do in fact continue to find peace, stability and happiness with yourself, to work through your issues, and that in the future we can rebuild a friendship.
79
I'm 99% sure that Fml/efemel is my ex boyfriend.
I just read the letter today and read through all the comments. I've been a reader for a long time and have drafted many letters to Dan myself while trying to come to terms with the state of our relationship. I never sent any of them because I was pretty sure what Dan would say about the situation. I just couldn't accept the state of things for a long time and battled with myself and my 'inner Dan Savage'.
I just wanted to thank you for your response, as it probably helped me as much as it did my ex. When I saw what was obviously a letter from my partner surface in the column, I was shocked and nervous. But I found your response and all the comments to be so helpful and I know in the end, giving my partner the space to discover who they really are (whether they now know for sure or not)was the best I could have done given the circumstances.
I also had to learn to be strong enough to realize that despite good intentions and much open communication, my needs, which I had expressed and waited to be fulfilled, sexual and otherwise, were not going to be met, and in the end we both deserve to be in a partnership where our wants and needs, sexual and otherwise, are able to be met.
I do expect people to come with their own issues which is why I held on for almost 2 years. I tried to be ggg, and put into practice all the things I'd learned over the years of reading your column. But after many months of heartache, and feeling for so long like I was somehow less than worthy of my fairly vanilla desires, I came to the tough decision that for my own sanity, I had to walk.
It was such a difficult thing to do, to put myself first as well as to accept that my ex was probably better off working things out on their own. But I fought it out for as long as I could, and I wanted to thank you because your response truly brings me some comfort.
FML, I know you'll see this too, and I really hope that you do in fact continue to find peace, stability and happiness with yourself, to work through your issues, and that in the future we can rebuild a friendship.
More...
I just read the letter today and read through all the comments. I've been a reader for a long time and have drafted many letters to Dan myself while trying to come to terms with the state of our relationship. I never sent any of them because I was pretty sure what Dan would say about the situation. I just couldn't accept the state of things for a long time and battled with myself and my 'inner Dan Savage'.
I just wanted to thank you for your response, as it probably helped me as much as it did my ex. When I saw what was obviously a letter from my partner surface in the column, I was shocked and nervous. But I found your response and all the comments to be so helpful and I know in the end, giving my partner the space to discover who they really are (whether they now know for sure or not)was the best I could have done given the circumstances.
I also had to learn to be strong enough to realize that despite good intentions and much open communication, my needs, which I had expressed and waited to be fulfilled, sexual and otherwise, were not going to be met, and in the end we both deserve to be in a partnership where our wants and needs, sexual and otherwise, are able to be met.
I do expect people to come with their own issues which is why I held on for almost 2 years. I tried to be ggg, and put into practice all the things I'd learned over the years of reading your column. But after many months of heartache, and feeling for so long like I was somehow less than worthy of my fairly vanilla desires, I came to the tough decision that for my own sanity, I had to walk.
It was such a difficult thing to do, to put myself first as well as to accept that my ex was probably better off working things out on their own. But I fought it out for as long as I could, and I wanted to thank you because your response truly brings me some comfort.
FML, I know you'll see this too, and I really hope that you do in fact continue to find peace, stability and happiness with yourself, to work through your issues, and that in the future we can rebuild a friendship.
80
And just to be clear I guess, this is a pooch that can't be unscrewed. But I hope the advice here and all of the comments can be of some help to you too.
Also so sorry for the multiple posts.
Also so sorry for the multiple posts.
82
For some reason the title of this column has me imagining Toni Braxton singing "Unscrew my Pooch"...yes, I'm just weird like that
84
By the way... Does it seem lame to anyone else that people are linking their personal blogs on here ?... Does anyone need some custom woodwork done ? Should I leave my email address lol ?
85
81-- But is the new woman better off with someone who won't share something basic in his sexual history with her?
87
@9
My theory is that a lot of men want children, but they want to use the whole "I don't want children" attitude as a power-play so that they can win concessions in the relationship.
When a woman shows up and says "I don't want children." they freak out because they won't have anything to hold over her head in order to get the upper-hand in parts of their relationship.
It's a very adversarial attitude towards relationships, and I don't play that. I remember having a lot of trouble finding a guy who honestly didn't want children, or didn't treat me like an unnatural creature for my desire.
Then, one day, while watching an Episode of 2 guys and a girl in the middle of our dorms, a character used the phrase "There are some women who are not made to be mothers, and I am their queen." I stood up and cheered. And my eyes caught a cute boy across the room who was clapping loudly.
We've been together for 13 years of child-free bliss. They are out there.
My theory is that a lot of men want children, but they want to use the whole "I don't want children" attitude as a power-play so that they can win concessions in the relationship.
When a woman shows up and says "I don't want children." they freak out because they won't have anything to hold over her head in order to get the upper-hand in parts of their relationship.
It's a very adversarial attitude towards relationships, and I don't play that. I remember having a lot of trouble finding a guy who honestly didn't want children, or didn't treat me like an unnatural creature for my desire.
Then, one day, while watching an Episode of 2 guys and a girl in the middle of our dorms, a character used the phrase "There are some women who are not made to be mothers, and I am their queen." I stood up and cheered. And my eyes caught a cute boy across the room who was clapping loudly.
We've been together for 13 years of child-free bliss. They are out there.
88
87-- On the other hand, there are the women who say they don't want children until they marry at which point they decide they do. Then they ruminate over going off their birth control with the idea that the guy will fall in love with the children he never wanted, or he'll be responsible for supporting forever the children he never wanted, or at least he'll be viewed as a jerk in the eyes of the world for making a decision and sticking to it.
My point isn't that women are scum or that men are-- only that there's the potential for assholery everywhere you look.
My point isn't that women are scum or that men are-- only that there's the potential for assholery everywhere you look.
89
@88
Oh, I agree entirely. I should have made clear that I was only talking about the way that certain men were assholes. I wasn't trying to say that men were the *only* assholes out there.
But seriously: Do I need to include that disclaimer in every thing I type? Aren't we at the point in society where we can just assume, as long as I didn't say "All men are like this and women are saints" that I'm not saying that?
Oh, I agree entirely. I should have made clear that I was only talking about the way that certain men were assholes. I wasn't trying to say that men were the *only* assholes out there.
But seriously: Do I need to include that disclaimer in every thing I type? Aren't we at the point in society where we can just assume, as long as I didn't say "All men are like this and women are saints" that I'm not saying that?
90
@88, 89:
The reality is that people--all people--change over time. Somewhere, about some subject, you're likely to feel differently at 40, say, than you did at 19. We none of know at 19 (or 23, or 31) what that subject will be, nor how the change will manifest itself. It may, for instance, harden from mild indifference into more settled opinion. It may reverse mildly or radically.
Doubtless there are people who misrepresent their true feelings about a subject likely to be contentious between two people if they sense that their partner's feelings are different and that revealing their own would spell the end of a relationship that they want to keep, and hope that the partner's feelings will change over time, or trust that the feelings aren't really as strong as they are being purported, or hope that they can change the partner's mind.
But I'd like to give most people the benefit of the doubt, and say that calling someone an asshole just because his or her feeling either did or didn't change to match his or her partner's is harsh and judgmental, and furthermore reductive of the human experience, which is more complex than a snap judgment of "asshole" can do credit to.
The reality is that people--all people--change over time. Somewhere, about some subject, you're likely to feel differently at 40, say, than you did at 19. We none of know at 19 (or 23, or 31) what that subject will be, nor how the change will manifest itself. It may, for instance, harden from mild indifference into more settled opinion. It may reverse mildly or radically.
Doubtless there are people who misrepresent their true feelings about a subject likely to be contentious between two people if they sense that their partner's feelings are different and that revealing their own would spell the end of a relationship that they want to keep, and hope that the partner's feelings will change over time, or trust that the feelings aren't really as strong as they are being purported, or hope that they can change the partner's mind.
But I'd like to give most people the benefit of the doubt, and say that calling someone an asshole just because his or her feeling either did or didn't change to match his or her partner's is harsh and judgmental, and furthermore reductive of the human experience, which is more complex than a snap judgment of "asshole" can do credit to.
91
@88, just to play devil's advocate:
If a guy wants to be child-free by choice, can't he just get a vasectomy? So if he doesn't get a vasectomy, is it unreasonable for his wife to think that's because he thinks he might change his mind?
If a guy wants to be child-free by choice, can't he just get a vasectomy? So if he doesn't get a vasectomy, is it unreasonable for his wife to think that's because he thinks he might change his mind?
92
Ms Cute - I'm not sure for which side you're briefed here. I'd say the burden is on the changer to manifest good faith.
Ms Diane - I considered Ms Crinoline's post as more complementary to yours than adversarial.
Ms Diane - I considered Ms Crinoline's post as more complementary to yours than adversarial.
93
Asking yourself about who who are in relation to your gender is understandable, but there is really no need to be confused.God has made us male or female each with different roles and functions.
God has designed men and women to come together and form families under the unbrella of marriage.Under this legal covenant sexual relations are good and as a result we are all born.
Sexual relations outside the circle of marriage are to be shunned like a disease.Sexual relations between members of the same sex are forbidden and will with the passage of time lead to nothing but regret.
I saw the sexual revolution of the 1960's,it was a total fiasco.It produced misery because we as a people refused to conform ourselves to God's eternal laws designed to make us truly happy.
In order to end your confusion the remedy is closer than you think and involves a relationship with Jesus Christ.I hope you will take this step. There is no happiness without it.
The Seavior is not embarresed by our sins.He wants to rescue each of us individualy and make us fit for the Kingdom of God.
May God help you on your journey.Log on to LDS.org. and just believe you are loved by God and that he has not forgotten about you and never will.
God has designed men and women to come together and form families under the unbrella of marriage.Under this legal covenant sexual relations are good and as a result we are all born.
Sexual relations outside the circle of marriage are to be shunned like a disease.Sexual relations between members of the same sex are forbidden and will with the passage of time lead to nothing but regret.
I saw the sexual revolution of the 1960's,it was a total fiasco.It produced misery because we as a people refused to conform ourselves to God's eternal laws designed to make us truly happy.
In order to end your confusion the remedy is closer than you think and involves a relationship with Jesus Christ.I hope you will take this step. There is no happiness without it.
The Seavior is not embarresed by our sins.He wants to rescue each of us individualy and make us fit for the Kingdom of God.
May God help you on your journey.Log on to LDS.org. and just believe you are loved by God and that he has not forgotten about you and never will.
94
Ms Erica - Not unreasonable, but far from reasonable at the same time, especially given the nature of much of the War on Women of late. A clever example of yours.
95
Your collum last week was disturbing.To intentionly damage ANY part of your body is wrong.Your body is a Temple of God, so respect it and stop the insanity.
97
@87, DianeLGD: Bravo, and congrats on scoring your perfect guy!
@88 DianeLGD & @89 Crinoline, and @90 nocutename: Points well taken.
@91 EricaP: Good to hear from you! I hope all is well your way.
Thanks for playing devil's advocate.
One clarification to my post @9 waaaaaaay back when: DianeLGD @87 summed my feelings up perfectly and really said what I originally meant to say. I'm not saying I hate kids; but I am, indeed, in that category of "there are some women who were not made to be mothers and I am their queen". Diane, you're BRILLIANT!! I'm copying this line down and posting it up on my kitchen wall!!
It's comforting to know that in our baby-obsessed society, I am not alone with my own personal decision to remain childless.
The asinine GOP "War on Women" has reaffirmed that I made a wise choice for myself.
@88 DianeLGD & @89 Crinoline, and @90 nocutename: Points well taken.
@91 EricaP: Good to hear from you! I hope all is well your way.
Thanks for playing devil's advocate.
One clarification to my post @9 waaaaaaay back when: DianeLGD @87 summed my feelings up perfectly and really said what I originally meant to say. I'm not saying I hate kids; but I am, indeed, in that category of "there are some women who were not made to be mothers and I am their queen". Diane, you're BRILLIANT!! I'm copying this line down and posting it up on my kitchen wall!!
It's comforting to know that in our baby-obsessed society, I am not alone with my own personal decision to remain childless.
The asinine GOP "War on Women" has reaffirmed that I made a wise choice for myself.
98
Erica,
Your husband will be so proud of your new bumpersticker:
Your husband will be so proud of your new bumpersticker:
My dom husband wears panties,
and sucks my cock.
99
LOL, I just read that Dan is one of the signs of the apocalypse:
http://www.yolohub.com/facts/21-unanswer…
It's kind of clever, target those people who only watch FOX News and show how the "media" are keeping this important news from them. I knew almost all of the things on the list, and the irony is that it's the Democrats who are fighting hard against most of them. So FOX News wins both by tricking the really gullible into knowing nothing, and making the slightly smarter one paranoid and fearful.
http://www.yolohub.com/facts/21-unanswer…
It's kind of clever, target those people who only watch FOX News and show how the "media" are keeping this important news from them. I knew almost all of the things on the list, and the irony is that it's the Democrats who are fighting hard against most of them. So FOX News wins both by tricking the really gullible into knowing nothing, and making the slightly smarter one paranoid and fearful.
101
@97, 87, 100, et. al.:
I remember a while back a discussion occurring about the meaning of the word "feminist." My point is that feminism allows women choices. This includes the choice to be a mother or not, at a moment in time, or permanently. It allows women's choices to be respected. It recognizes that each individual woman knows what is best for her and that there is no one "right" way for a woman to live her life.
I remember a while back a discussion occurring about the meaning of the word "feminist." My point is that feminism allows women choices. This includes the choice to be a mother or not, at a moment in time, or permanently. It allows women's choices to be respected. It recognizes that each individual woman knows what is best for her and that there is no one "right" way for a woman to live her life.
102
Wow, I'm not even Dan and I saw through LW1's bullshit. Work through your a-holeism first and the rest will be downhill.
103
I think you're good looking in a manly sort of way!!! I subscribed to your Youtube and Twitter sites... It's an honor! ☁Art⚡
104
90, 92-- Vennominon is right. The vast number of my posts are musing on a subject, not taking anyone to task or calling anyone downright wrong. I might disagree in a small way, maybe in a shade of grey, but when it's obvious that someone is completely wrong as when the funadmentalists get on here, I just ignore them. If I answer you at all, I assume good will and trust others assume the same from me. So yes, it's not necessary to have a long disclaimer that SOME men, not all, or SOME women, not all, behave in a particular way any more than I feel it necessary to put in a disclaimer saying that I think you're mostly right and am continuing the thought. Complementary, even complimentary, not adversarial as Ven put it so well.
106
@97
I am currently in the battle of my life to get my uterus taken out. I like kids. But having a child of my own would be a monumentally stupid idea. I would make a mediocre mom, but I am a kick-ass aunt.
But no-one in the reproductive health industry seems to believe me when I say "I don't want kids."
I don't want my husband to get a vasectomy. We have friends who have a use for his sperm, even if we don't.
And I have health issues that make a partial hysterectomy my best medical option. I have had four doctors agree on this.
But no-one is willing to do it. My gynecologist is so concerned that I'll "Change my mind."
I feel like, with the current political climate, I can't wait for "time to pass" so she feels more comfortable with the idea. I'm terrified I won't be able to do it if I don't get it done soon.
I am currently in the battle of my life to get my uterus taken out. I like kids. But having a child of my own would be a monumentally stupid idea. I would make a mediocre mom, but I am a kick-ass aunt.
But no-one in the reproductive health industry seems to believe me when I say "I don't want kids."
I don't want my husband to get a vasectomy. We have friends who have a use for his sperm, even if we don't.
And I have health issues that make a partial hysterectomy my best medical option. I have had four doctors agree on this.
But no-one is willing to do it. My gynecologist is so concerned that I'll "Change my mind."
I feel like, with the current political climate, I can't wait for "time to pass" so she feels more comfortable with the idea. I'm terrified I won't be able to do it if I don't get it done soon.
107
> We have friends who have a use for his sperm, even if we don't.
Are you sure about this? If he's happy to provide sperm to his own friends, what gives you confidence that he really doesn't want to be a dad? I would think that someone who didn't want to be a dad also wouldn't want to create children with his sperm. In any case, you can freeze his sperm, so that you can use them later if you really want to donate to your friends...
Are you sure about this? If he's happy to provide sperm to his own friends, what gives you confidence that he really doesn't want to be a dad? I would think that someone who didn't want to be a dad also wouldn't want to create children with his sperm. In any case, you can freeze his sperm, so that you can use them later if you really want to donate to your friends...
108
@106:
You mentioned other "health issues that make a partial hysterectomy [your] best medical option."
You surely know the state of your health better than I.
But if what you want to do is to sterilize yourself, a tubal ligation is all it takes; if your husband banks his sperm for your friends a vasectomy is still a good option--the most risk-free, and easiest surgical procedure to make sure you don't have an unwanted child.
There are permanent options far less invasive than a hysterectomy, which is major abdominal surgery and a not-pleasant procedure to recover from. I don't know how old you are, but if you are old enough to be married, you should be able to find a doctor willing to perform the surgery.
If your gynecologist doesn't want to do do it, why not use one of the four whom you've said agree that it is a preferred medical option? Perhaps your gynecologist would be willing to do a tubal ligation.
Although the current political climate is scary, I think that those who want to get sterilized should still be able to do so, and as for a partial hysterectomy, they're generally done for reasons other than stopping fertility, so I can't see that politics would have an effect on them. If your insurance company doesn't see the medical need for the surgery, it might not be covered, though.
You mentioned other "health issues that make a partial hysterectomy [your] best medical option."
You surely know the state of your health better than I.
But if what you want to do is to sterilize yourself, a tubal ligation is all it takes; if your husband banks his sperm for your friends a vasectomy is still a good option--the most risk-free, and easiest surgical procedure to make sure you don't have an unwanted child.
There are permanent options far less invasive than a hysterectomy, which is major abdominal surgery and a not-pleasant procedure to recover from. I don't know how old you are, but if you are old enough to be married, you should be able to find a doctor willing to perform the surgery.
If your gynecologist doesn't want to do do it, why not use one of the four whom you've said agree that it is a preferred medical option? Perhaps your gynecologist would be willing to do a tubal ligation.
Although the current political climate is scary, I think that those who want to get sterilized should still be able to do so, and as for a partial hysterectomy, they're generally done for reasons other than stopping fertility, so I can't see that politics would have an effect on them. If your insurance company doesn't see the medical need for the surgery, it might not be covered, though.
110
@108
"they're generally done for reasons other than stopping fertility, so I can't see that politics would have an effect on them"
I'm not American, but isn't that also true of hormonal birth control? Which is also subject to the political winds? Lots of people take it for reasons other than preventing pregnancy.
"they're generally done for reasons other than stopping fertility, so I can't see that politics would have an effect on them"
I'm not American, but isn't that also true of hormonal birth control? Which is also subject to the political winds? Lots of people take it for reasons other than preventing pregnancy.
111
@108:
I don't pretend to know the far right, Christian agenda. But the general tenor regarding hormonal birth control is that it allows one to behave like a slut and just pop a pill, or have an injection or wear a patch. You are right that hormonal birth control is prescribed for other reasons as well, but the very name suggests that the primary purpose to to prevent pregnancies, whereas although a collateral effect of having a hysterectomy is indeed the inability to be pregnant, that is not the primary reason for doing such a major surgery. For one thing, the complications and risks are higher; for another, it is irreversible.
I would imagine that having a hysterectomy would be a far-less scrutinized or policed act, seen as a medical issue under a doctor's jurisdiction. It's not associated in the public mind with birth control for the simple reason that it isn't usually a first or even second option.
Also, I'm not sure that the religious right's objection is to women not being mothers as much as it is to them sleeping around. Since a lot of doctors won't even perform a tubal ligation on a married woman who insists that she won't regret her subsequent infertility (@106), it's got much less of that "slut" stigma about it, whereas I think a lot of the associations with hormonal birth control is that it is taking by women who want to just have lots of sex and "pay none of the consequences." There's a different connotation at play.
I don't pretend to know the far right, Christian agenda. But the general tenor regarding hormonal birth control is that it allows one to behave like a slut and just pop a pill, or have an injection or wear a patch. You are right that hormonal birth control is prescribed for other reasons as well, but the very name suggests that the primary purpose to to prevent pregnancies, whereas although a collateral effect of having a hysterectomy is indeed the inability to be pregnant, that is not the primary reason for doing such a major surgery. For one thing, the complications and risks are higher; for another, it is irreversible.
I would imagine that having a hysterectomy would be a far-less scrutinized or policed act, seen as a medical issue under a doctor's jurisdiction. It's not associated in the public mind with birth control for the simple reason that it isn't usually a first or even second option.
Also, I'm not sure that the religious right's objection is to women not being mothers as much as it is to them sleeping around. Since a lot of doctors won't even perform a tubal ligation on a married woman who insists that she won't regret her subsequent infertility (@106), it's got much less of that "slut" stigma about it, whereas I think a lot of the associations with hormonal birth control is that it is taking by women who want to just have lots of sex and "pay none of the consequences." There's a different connotation at play.
112
ericap Donating sperm and wanting to be a father aren't always the same thing. Lots of guys donate sperm for many reasons some of which have nothing to do with wanting to be a parent.
113
@111
I never understood that. If you're sleeping around and using hormonal birth control to prevent pregnancy (ie. not using condoms), then you're probably going to end up paying LOTS of consequences. Some of them a lot worse than getting pregnant. Most people I know who uses birth control either
a. uses it for health reasons (cramps, etc)
b. are using it in the context of a monogamous relationship.... and sure, if they're not married, I guess it's still probably bad to right wing Christian people (they are a much much less vocal and much smaller minority where I come from) but those folks are not exactly their most hated demographic
I never understood that. If you're sleeping around and using hormonal birth control to prevent pregnancy (ie. not using condoms), then you're probably going to end up paying LOTS of consequences. Some of them a lot worse than getting pregnant. Most people I know who uses birth control either
a. uses it for health reasons (cramps, etc)
b. are using it in the context of a monogamous relationship.... and sure, if they're not married, I guess it's still probably bad to right wing Christian people (they are a much much less vocal and much smaller minority where I come from) but those folks are not exactly their most hated demographic
114
I think it is true that there's someone (or, more likely, several someones) out there for everyone... but it's also true that your someone may be in, say, Mozambique--not much help if you're in, say, Toledo...
115
Ms Cte - I agree, and wonder how a particular divide plays out for the religious set. There are those who require women as gatekeepers who exist primarily to keep men civilized; they fall basically in line with a variation on Pauline reasoning into grudgingly accepting sex in marriage (often limited to a very tiny repertoire), though insisting that the best women never enjoy it or at least never admit to enjoying it. But there are others who embrace the female orgasm as long as it occurs only in the context of exclusive heterosexual matrimony. But in that context almost anything goes, though perhaps with reservations about what would constitute unwifely conduct.
I sometimes marvel that the two factions manage to agree so often as they do, and wonder if maybe the less sex-negative side might be able to be peeled back a trifle from the War on Women.
I sometimes marvel that the two factions manage to agree so often as they do, and wonder if maybe the less sex-negative side might be able to be peeled back a trifle from the War on Women.
116
@113: Ah, but Mydriasis, you're making that mistake again, assuming that you and your friends are representative. I'm talking about the perception of the vast majority, including people for whom the phrase "birth control" or "the pill" is synonymous with "the sexual revolution," itself synonymous with many for "sluts and their slutty, perverted promiscuity."
117
I never understand couples, gay or straight, who want to have threesomes and are opposed to the following fairly simply options:
Find a similar couple and swap!
Join a swingers' club.
Find a sex club in an urban area.
Pay for an escort or prostitute.
Find a similar couple and swap!
Join a swingers' club.
Find a sex club in an urban area.
Pay for an escort or prostitute.
118
I'll quickly answer some questions.
As far as sperm donation goes:
It is only with a lot of cajoling that my husband has agreed to donate sperm, and only for a couple we know will require him not to parent in any way. He has no wish to be involved with his biological child's life, and really has no wish to have a biological child.
But my friends live in a conservative state, and they are gay so adoption would be a bit harder for them. Helping a family have children is a good thing in this case. Also, my husband has really really good genes (200+ IQ and no genetic diseases. Everyone in his family lives past 100.) I think it would be a shame if he didn't donate. He has no wish to, and is only doing it with great reluctance because I'm making him. We don't know how many children they will want (they feel ambitious now but that might change after their first), and stuff straight from the tap is better than stuff on ice.
As for my health problems:
I'm in a situation where I *do* have other options.
The first is to go back on hormonal birth-control, and stay on a medication that when combined, in my case, causes me excruciating pain. We've tried every type of hormonal birth control known to man. The pain is debilitating.
The second is to try to find an alternative to the medication that combines badly with my birth-control. But I've been on every SAFE medication there is, none of them work, and the combination that sorta-kinda works has caused me to gain massive amounts of weight. Seriously. Since going off my birth-control and back on the first medication I've lost fifty pounds. I have fifty more to go before I'm at the weight I was before this whole mess.
The third option is what I have to live with right now. I'm on the good medicine, and off of hormonal birth-control. I've been bleeding for five months straight. My iron levels are actually fine, so I don't have a "real problem" according to my gynecologist. I do have horrible horrible cramps when I'm off birth-control, though. I'm miserable, and I feel worthless all the time. I'll have a period free week here and there, but then it'll start up again.
The forth option is an ablation. I'd be sterilized, but my risk of an ectopic pregnancy would be higher, and that doesn't get rid of the horrible horrible cramps. I know because two women in my family had one, and they both wound up getting hysterectomies within a year. I'd rather only have to go under once, thank-you.
The fifth option, and the one that EVERYONE knows is the most logical is a partial hysterectomy. I don't want a baby. I don't want a period. I'm okay with having my hormones because I'm only 30, so I'm too young for menopause.
But it's not NECESSARY, because I have other options. And that's the sticking point.
It's humiliating. Two of those doctors were psychiatrists. I've also had to get a note from my husband and my mother.
As for why I haven't gone to any of the other doctors, they've both politely told me that they won't risk bad blood by stealing my doctor's patient. These are the best doctors in my area, and I'm not comfortable with the safety records of anyone else. If she stalls again after this next deadline, I'm going to risk getting mutilated by a hack, though.
I'm worried that my insurance won't cover it if I wait longer--after all, my life isn't threatened. Just my health, happiness, and sanity. I'm worried that my husband and I will slip (We've been abstaining since I went off of birth-control), I'll get pregnant, and be unable to have an abortion.
I feel like I'm being treated like a child. I'm sick of it.
More...
As far as sperm donation goes:
It is only with a lot of cajoling that my husband has agreed to donate sperm, and only for a couple we know will require him not to parent in any way. He has no wish to be involved with his biological child's life, and really has no wish to have a biological child.
But my friends live in a conservative state, and they are gay so adoption would be a bit harder for them. Helping a family have children is a good thing in this case. Also, my husband has really really good genes (200+ IQ and no genetic diseases. Everyone in his family lives past 100.) I think it would be a shame if he didn't donate. He has no wish to, and is only doing it with great reluctance because I'm making him. We don't know how many children they will want (they feel ambitious now but that might change after their first), and stuff straight from the tap is better than stuff on ice.
As for my health problems:
I'm in a situation where I *do* have other options.
The first is to go back on hormonal birth-control, and stay on a medication that when combined, in my case, causes me excruciating pain. We've tried every type of hormonal birth control known to man. The pain is debilitating.
The second is to try to find an alternative to the medication that combines badly with my birth-control. But I've been on every SAFE medication there is, none of them work, and the combination that sorta-kinda works has caused me to gain massive amounts of weight. Seriously. Since going off my birth-control and back on the first medication I've lost fifty pounds. I have fifty more to go before I'm at the weight I was before this whole mess.
The third option is what I have to live with right now. I'm on the good medicine, and off of hormonal birth-control. I've been bleeding for five months straight. My iron levels are actually fine, so I don't have a "real problem" according to my gynecologist. I do have horrible horrible cramps when I'm off birth-control, though. I'm miserable, and I feel worthless all the time. I'll have a period free week here and there, but then it'll start up again.
The forth option is an ablation. I'd be sterilized, but my risk of an ectopic pregnancy would be higher, and that doesn't get rid of the horrible horrible cramps. I know because two women in my family had one, and they both wound up getting hysterectomies within a year. I'd rather only have to go under once, thank-you.
The fifth option, and the one that EVERYONE knows is the most logical is a partial hysterectomy. I don't want a baby. I don't want a period. I'm okay with having my hormones because I'm only 30, so I'm too young for menopause.
But it's not NECESSARY, because I have other options. And that's the sticking point.
It's humiliating. Two of those doctors were psychiatrists. I've also had to get a note from my husband and my mother.
As for why I haven't gone to any of the other doctors, they've both politely told me that they won't risk bad blood by stealing my doctor's patient. These are the best doctors in my area, and I'm not comfortable with the safety records of anyone else. If she stalls again after this next deadline, I'm going to risk getting mutilated by a hack, though.
I'm worried that my insurance won't cover it if I wait longer--after all, my life isn't threatened. Just my health, happiness, and sanity. I'm worried that my husband and I will slip (We've been abstaining since I went off of birth-control), I'll get pregnant, and be unable to have an abortion.
I feel like I'm being treated like a child. I'm sick of it.
119
@Diane
"It is only with a lot of cajoling that my husband has agreed to donate sperm, and only for a couple we know will require him not to parent in any way. He has no wish to be involved with his biological child's life, and really has no wish to have a biological child."
"I think it would be a shame if he didn't donate. He has no wish to, and is only doing it with great reluctance because I'm making him."
Wow.
Are you serious?
You're forcing your husband to become a biological parent (who will have contact with his biological child who will grow up and wonder who daddy is) even though he doesn't want to? And in the same breath complaining about how your wishes are being ignored?
How you're being treated is horrible and you should be able to get the surgery if you want, I'm all for that if you want it. It's your body. You should control it. Don't you think he should also control his?
I was honestly shocked reading this. Please tell me I missed something.
"It is only with a lot of cajoling that my husband has agreed to donate sperm, and only for a couple we know will require him not to parent in any way. He has no wish to be involved with his biological child's life, and really has no wish to have a biological child."
"I think it would be a shame if he didn't donate. He has no wish to, and is only doing it with great reluctance because I'm making him."
Wow.
Are you serious?
You're forcing your husband to become a biological parent (who will have contact with his biological child who will grow up and wonder who daddy is) even though he doesn't want to? And in the same breath complaining about how your wishes are being ignored?
How you're being treated is horrible and you should be able to get the surgery if you want, I'm all for that if you want it. It's your body. You should control it. Don't you think he should also control his?
I was honestly shocked reading this. Please tell me I missed something.
120
That was an exaggeration. I say "making" I mean persuading. If you knew my husband you'd know it was impossible to "make" him do anything. And I wouldn't try.
The reason he's willing to do it, is because I've made a case that it's the moral thing to do. Our friends want children, and he thinks they would be great mothers.
Also, they live in a different state than us, and he wouldn't have to have contact with them any more than he wants to. He's said that he'd like to occupy the same space as an "uncle" in their life.
The child will know who his/her biological father is, but as we have a grown friend who was raised in this exact situation (talking to her was how I persuaded my husband to agree to it) we really don't expect the child to want much more from him than the occasional phone call and visit, and Birthday and Christmas presents. That's what she wanted from her biological father. Her moms were enough for her.
If my gynecologist took the same tactic with me that I took with my husband, I'd have no problem. Give me the case. Have me talk to people in my situation who made the choice I want to make and made the opposite choice, etc. Then respect my decision after I've made the choice. That would be reasonable. This. What I'm going through now. This is inhuman.
The reason he's willing to do it, is because I've made a case that it's the moral thing to do. Our friends want children, and he thinks they would be great mothers.
Also, they live in a different state than us, and he wouldn't have to have contact with them any more than he wants to. He's said that he'd like to occupy the same space as an "uncle" in their life.
The child will know who his/her biological father is, but as we have a grown friend who was raised in this exact situation (talking to her was how I persuaded my husband to agree to it) we really don't expect the child to want much more from him than the occasional phone call and visit, and Birthday and Christmas presents. That's what she wanted from her biological father. Her moms were enough for her.
If my gynecologist took the same tactic with me that I took with my husband, I'd have no problem. Give me the case. Have me talk to people in my situation who made the choice I want to make and made the opposite choice, etc. Then respect my decision after I've made the choice. That would be reasonable. This. What I'm going through now. This is inhuman.
121
@118, 120:
First of all, I agree with Mydriasis regarding your husband's sperm donation: if it wasn't his enthusiastic idea, he shouldn't do it. There is no way of knowing what kind of relationship the yet-unconceived child will want with his or her biological father, if he is known to the family; it isn't even a guarantee that the moms will not want more involvement than your husband might want to give. This isn't anonymous sperm donation at a bank; this is a complex intertwined relationship. So your friends are lesbians living in a conservative state; they can still use sperm from a sperm bank, either locally, or, if no such place exists, than they can go take a trip to one. They can advertise for sperm from a man who wants to be a biological father. It's not your place to solve their family problems; it's not your place to "persuade" your husband to do something of this magnitude that he explicitly doesn't want to do.
Second, talk to one of the other doctors again. This isn't like a hairdresser "stealing" a client; your healthcare provider is refusing to do a procedure that she admits is a the best option for your health. The idea of bad blood sounds ridiculous and childish.
Frankly, something sounds off about this whole thing, and I'm not sure that you characterized things accurately. Psychiatrists? Notes from mothers? There's a level of drama that seems unnecessary. The surgery can always be obtained (just as, should you and your husband "slip up" and you get pregnant, an abortion can be obtained)--it just might not be paid for by insurance should it not be deemed necessary. There's a difference between having to pay for "optional" or "voluntary" surgery, and not having a doctor be willing to perform it. It sounds like you're trying to get a doctor to say this is medically necessary so that insurance will cover it and since you have other options, none will. The doctors might be unable to make that call if it isn't true without repercussions. If you want an abortion, you can still have one (assuming you seek it while in the first trimester). You may need to travel across state lines; you may need to endure humiliating and unnecessary "tests" and lectures "informing" you of the fetus' development; you will undoubtedly have to pay for it yourself.
More...
First of all, I agree with Mydriasis regarding your husband's sperm donation: if it wasn't his enthusiastic idea, he shouldn't do it. There is no way of knowing what kind of relationship the yet-unconceived child will want with his or her biological father, if he is known to the family; it isn't even a guarantee that the moms will not want more involvement than your husband might want to give. This isn't anonymous sperm donation at a bank; this is a complex intertwined relationship. So your friends are lesbians living in a conservative state; they can still use sperm from a sperm bank, either locally, or, if no such place exists, than they can go take a trip to one. They can advertise for sperm from a man who wants to be a biological father. It's not your place to solve their family problems; it's not your place to "persuade" your husband to do something of this magnitude that he explicitly doesn't want to do.
Second, talk to one of the other doctors again. This isn't like a hairdresser "stealing" a client; your healthcare provider is refusing to do a procedure that she admits is a the best option for your health. The idea of bad blood sounds ridiculous and childish.
Frankly, something sounds off about this whole thing, and I'm not sure that you characterized things accurately. Psychiatrists? Notes from mothers? There's a level of drama that seems unnecessary. The surgery can always be obtained (just as, should you and your husband "slip up" and you get pregnant, an abortion can be obtained)--it just might not be paid for by insurance should it not be deemed necessary. There's a difference between having to pay for "optional" or "voluntary" surgery, and not having a doctor be willing to perform it. It sounds like you're trying to get a doctor to say this is medically necessary so that insurance will cover it and since you have other options, none will. The doctors might be unable to make that call if it isn't true without repercussions. If you want an abortion, you can still have one (assuming you seek it while in the first trimester). You may need to travel across state lines; you may need to endure humiliating and unnecessary "tests" and lectures "informing" you of the fetus' development; you will undoubtedly have to pay for it yourself.
124
@cute
You kind of put what I was feeling into much better words.
I'm going to go a bit out of character and trust that what she's saying is accurate and her husband legitimately came around through a better understanding of the situation than the one that initially led him to say no.
But my gut reaction was more along the lines of what you said.
You kind of put what I was feeling into much better words.
I'm going to go a bit out of character and trust that what she's saying is accurate and her husband legitimately came around through a better understanding of the situation than the one that initially led him to say no.
But my gut reaction was more along the lines of what you said.
125
@DianeLGD: I'm curious what your husband's objections to sperm donation were in the first place.
Second, I'm troubled by the disconnect about what role he is to play in the child's life. First you say, "He has no wish to be involved with his biological child's life," but then later you talk about him being okay with being some sort of "uncle." And after that it's "the occasional phone call and visit, and Birthday and Christmas presents." Sorry, but that sounds like someone is fully expecting to put him on the hook for a relationship with this child -- to me it has the distinct smell of camel's-nose-in-the-tent. He would not be in the wrong to put his foot down and insist that the lot of you (meaning the lesbian couple and you -- and yes, this is starting to sound like a conspiracy of three against one) treat it for all intents and purposes as an anonymous sperm donation, or else forget the whole thing.
If I were in his shoes, my response would be, "I am helping the two of you have the child that you cannot conceive without technical intervention. As such, I am no more that child's father than the doctor who did your in-vitro would be. That child has a perfectly good set of parents: you and you, and not me. I don't want to complicate his life."
Third, I'm not sure of the laws surrounding this, but I don't know whether it is even legally possible to create an agreement where both parties disclaim his paternity when done this way -- meaning that should your lesbian friends find themselves in financial trouble, they could come after your assets for back child support. I recommend you get competent legal advice before embarking on this.
Second, I'm troubled by the disconnect about what role he is to play in the child's life. First you say, "He has no wish to be involved with his biological child's life," but then later you talk about him being okay with being some sort of "uncle." And after that it's "the occasional phone call and visit, and Birthday and Christmas presents." Sorry, but that sounds like someone is fully expecting to put him on the hook for a relationship with this child -- to me it has the distinct smell of camel's-nose-in-the-tent. He would not be in the wrong to put his foot down and insist that the lot of you (meaning the lesbian couple and you -- and yes, this is starting to sound like a conspiracy of three against one) treat it for all intents and purposes as an anonymous sperm donation, or else forget the whole thing.
If I were in his shoes, my response would be, "I am helping the two of you have the child that you cannot conceive without technical intervention. As such, I am no more that child's father than the doctor who did your in-vitro would be. That child has a perfectly good set of parents: you and you, and not me. I don't want to complicate his life."
Third, I'm not sure of the laws surrounding this, but I don't know whether it is even legally possible to create an agreement where both parties disclaim his paternity when done this way -- meaning that should your lesbian friends find themselves in financial trouble, they could come after your assets for back child support. I recommend you get competent legal advice before embarking on this.
126
Diane, regarding your medical situation (best to untangle from the sperm donation thing):
I might suggest a conference call with both doctors, where once you have them both on the line, tell them, "Look, I'm in pain here. Your professional deference is all well and good, but it isn't in line with your Hippocratic Oath. You've both established that you respect one another and want to maintain good professional relationships. That's awesome. Now, which one of you is going to do the right thing and treat me, and which one is going to do the right thing by green-lighting the other to treat me?"
I might suggest a conference call with both doctors, where once you have them both on the line, tell them, "Look, I'm in pain here. Your professional deference is all well and good, but it isn't in line with your Hippocratic Oath. You've both established that you respect one another and want to maintain good professional relationships. That's awesome. Now, which one of you is going to do the right thing and treat me, and which one is going to do the right thing by green-lighting the other to treat me?"
127
No. 125: Good point. In California, it is against public policy to enforce any contract which would deprive the biological child of his or her right to support and parental obligations, unless the semen is delivered to a doctor with a tissue license; in which event the semen must be frozen and tested per FDA regulations, then can be used. If you want to use fresh semen, the donor must give a second time. I have seen many of these agreements blow up. Sperm bank highly recommended.
128
There are many reasons to not want to use a sperm bank. Wanting someone you know to be the father of your child is a natural thing. Wanting your child to have the option of a relationship with their biological father is a natural thing. Wanting someone who has agreed ahead of time to donate a kidney, bone marrow, and blood is a natural thing.
I get a lot of grief from all sides about how my husband and I run our marriage. Some think he controls me too much. Some think I control him too much. I think that's a sign that we are doing something right.
But if I were pregnant, he'd try to talk me out of an abortion and into adoption. Because we look out for each-other, and we make our big decisions together. When it's someone else's body the person whose body it is gets to make the final call, but we are always allowed to present a case.
My husband acknowledges that the child might have different expectations from normal. He's got friends who were in open and closed adoptions, and he's made the call. He's decided to roll the dice. My husband never makes a decision without looking at it in the most pessimistic way. We balance each-other out, because I tend to view things too positively.
We did the standard thing that we do when we disagree on a major decision. We decide who would make the call (not an issue here, because the answer was obviously him.), and we gave a time limit to the other person to present a case. I was given a month. I tracked down statistics, facts, and I presented it to him in written form. I did not even discuss it out loud. He e-mailed me with questions, and I did the research and backed my answers with facts and sources--also in e-mail form. We've found this cuts down on drama.
After looking at statistics and talking to our friend, he agreed that the good he'd do outweighed the potential risks.
But I did not want to go into the details of our marriage.
As for my gyno-woes. Of course there are other factors in play here. I've told you all of the relevant ones, and I've told you the complete truth about everything I've stated. Can you name a factor--seriously wrack your brain--that would justify what my doctor is doing to me?
It's possible that the other doctors had different reasons for not wanting to help me. I told you the answer they gave me, though.
Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that they don't trust me to not change my mind. My mother was not asked for a letter. She provided one of her own free will, because she felt like they didn't understand how long I've been child-free (the answer is as long as I could talk.)
And I've asked around. Most women who want to be sterilized have to jump through hoops like this if they are young and child-less. Hell, my Mother-in-law got sterilized in 1990, and they didn't want to do it because she was under 30, even though she had three children. Every doctor I've spoken to about getting my tubes tied before now has pulled that "Wait five years. You'll change your mind!" crap. The problem? After three years I've moved, I have a new doctor, and they want to make me start over again.
Fine. I'll tell you the big factor that makes them unwilling to trust my judgement: The other medication that combines badly with birth-control for me? Zoloft. I'm bi-polar. But I've not been found incompetent, and my psychiatrist (and every psychiatrist who has seen me for the past ten years) believes me when I say that I don't want children, and I won't change my mind. She even made me see two new psychiatrists.
My Gyno's freely admitted to me that she doesn't understand mental-illness, and certainly feels unqualified to treat it. But she's not willing to listen to the people who are.
My husband's argument: If you don't think she's mentally competent to decide she *doesn't* want a baby, why do you think she's mentally competent to take care of one if she has it?
But that falls on deaf ears.
So now that you know way more about my life than I ever intended to share, can you stop judging how my husband and I've seen fit to conduct our marriage? Now you can go on to dismiss everything I say from this day forth because I'm a nutter-butter.
More...
I get a lot of grief from all sides about how my husband and I run our marriage. Some think he controls me too much. Some think I control him too much. I think that's a sign that we are doing something right.
But if I were pregnant, he'd try to talk me out of an abortion and into adoption. Because we look out for each-other, and we make our big decisions together. When it's someone else's body the person whose body it is gets to make the final call, but we are always allowed to present a case.
My husband acknowledges that the child might have different expectations from normal. He's got friends who were in open and closed adoptions, and he's made the call. He's decided to roll the dice. My husband never makes a decision without looking at it in the most pessimistic way. We balance each-other out, because I tend to view things too positively.
We did the standard thing that we do when we disagree on a major decision. We decide who would make the call (not an issue here, because the answer was obviously him.), and we gave a time limit to the other person to present a case. I was given a month. I tracked down statistics, facts, and I presented it to him in written form. I did not even discuss it out loud. He e-mailed me with questions, and I did the research and backed my answers with facts and sources--also in e-mail form. We've found this cuts down on drama.
After looking at statistics and talking to our friend, he agreed that the good he'd do outweighed the potential risks.
But I did not want to go into the details of our marriage.
As for my gyno-woes. Of course there are other factors in play here. I've told you all of the relevant ones, and I've told you the complete truth about everything I've stated. Can you name a factor--seriously wrack your brain--that would justify what my doctor is doing to me?
It's possible that the other doctors had different reasons for not wanting to help me. I told you the answer they gave me, though.
Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that they don't trust me to not change my mind. My mother was not asked for a letter. She provided one of her own free will, because she felt like they didn't understand how long I've been child-free (the answer is as long as I could talk.)
And I've asked around. Most women who want to be sterilized have to jump through hoops like this if they are young and child-less. Hell, my Mother-in-law got sterilized in 1990, and they didn't want to do it because she was under 30, even though she had three children. Every doctor I've spoken to about getting my tubes tied before now has pulled that "Wait five years. You'll change your mind!" crap. The problem? After three years I've moved, I have a new doctor, and they want to make me start over again.
Fine. I'll tell you the big factor that makes them unwilling to trust my judgement: The other medication that combines badly with birth-control for me? Zoloft. I'm bi-polar. But I've not been found incompetent, and my psychiatrist (and every psychiatrist who has seen me for the past ten years) believes me when I say that I don't want children, and I won't change my mind. She even made me see two new psychiatrists.
My Gyno's freely admitted to me that she doesn't understand mental-illness, and certainly feels unqualified to treat it. But she's not willing to listen to the people who are.
My husband's argument: If you don't think she's mentally competent to decide she *doesn't* want a baby, why do you think she's mentally competent to take care of one if she has it?
But that falls on deaf ears.
So now that you know way more about my life than I ever intended to share, can you stop judging how my husband and I've seen fit to conduct our marriage? Now you can go on to dismiss everything I say from this day forth because I'm a nutter-butter.
129
Oh, and he knows about the court cases involved. Our friends do not live in California. They live in a state where sperm-donor contracts have been upheld when challenged. A contract is a must.
He has no problem providing financial assistance. He's already an uncle and he kind of wants to know anyone who shares his DNA. He just doesn't want the kid to live in his house with him. He doesn't want to make the important decisions--that much responsibility frightens the hell out of him. He wants the kid to know that if he/she wants to run away, he's not an option.
He has no problem providing financial assistance. He's already an uncle and he kind of wants to know anyone who shares his DNA. He just doesn't want the kid to live in his house with him. He doesn't want to make the important decisions--that much responsibility frightens the hell out of him. He wants the kid to know that if he/she wants to run away, he's not an option.
130
And my insurance has stated explicitly--to me, over the phone--that they have already voiced a willingness to pay for my surgery to my doctor.
131
I'm getting sick of unpacking. I'm not answering any more questions about Sperm donation or my uterus. I'm sorry I brought it up. My mistake.
132
@Dianne
I don't think you're a nutter butter, and I don't think that your (treated) mental illness has any bearing on your decision - especially if two psychiatrists also vouch for that. Your husband also makes a valid point.
Have you considered an nonhormonal IUD?
I don't think you're a nutter butter, and I don't think that your (treated) mental illness has any bearing on your decision - especially if two psychiatrists also vouch for that. Your husband also makes a valid point.
Have you considered an nonhormonal IUD?
133
@DianeLGD:
I didn't mean to suggest that you were a nutcase; I was commenting on what seemed to me to be a high amount of drama. Leaving aside your husband's decision to be a sperm donor and how it was arrived at, there seem to be two different things going on with the partial hysterectomy.
The first is that you have described a health condition which is affecting every part of your life: you are in pain, medicine isn't adequately addressing your pain, there are serious, deleterious side effects associated with the medication you've been prescribed, you bleed constantly.
The solution that doctors agree would help your condition the most would, as a collateral effect, render you infertile.
The second is that you have repeatedly expressed a desire, apparently independently of the specific health issue, to be sterilized, knowing that you don't want to be a mother.
It would seem that these two situations have a felicitous convergence. Furthermore, you have been given approval for the surgery from your insurance company, which sees the partial hysterectomy as the best medical/surgical solution to your primary problem.
Your mental illness, treated or untreated, should have no bearing on the decision to have the procedure. I can understand a doctor being reluctant to do something as permanent as a hysterectomy purely for reasons of controlling fertility on someone who is young and has had not children, and I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask the woman requesting it as a form of birth control to wait for a while before committing to it.
But that's not the primary reason you want the surgery. This is the best treatment available for your medical problem, and the biggest objection to it is a non-issue as far as you're concerned (even a side-benefit).
I think you need to approach your doctor and the other two again, and take discussions of how long you've known you didn't want to be a mommy off the table, along with discussions of your mental health. If your bi-polar disorder is under control, you are mentally healthy. Enough so as to make informed decisions about your medical care. Keep the discussion focused clearly on how to best treat your painful and debilitating condition, make it clear that you understand and accept the consequences of the best treatment (a partial hysterectomy), and talk about scheduling the procedure. Refuse to turn the conversation into being about what it's not.
Good luck.
More...
I didn't mean to suggest that you were a nutcase; I was commenting on what seemed to me to be a high amount of drama. Leaving aside your husband's decision to be a sperm donor and how it was arrived at, there seem to be two different things going on with the partial hysterectomy.
The first is that you have described a health condition which is affecting every part of your life: you are in pain, medicine isn't adequately addressing your pain, there are serious, deleterious side effects associated with the medication you've been prescribed, you bleed constantly.
The solution that doctors agree would help your condition the most would, as a collateral effect, render you infertile.
The second is that you have repeatedly expressed a desire, apparently independently of the specific health issue, to be sterilized, knowing that you don't want to be a mother.
It would seem that these two situations have a felicitous convergence. Furthermore, you have been given approval for the surgery from your insurance company, which sees the partial hysterectomy as the best medical/surgical solution to your primary problem.
Your mental illness, treated or untreated, should have no bearing on the decision to have the procedure. I can understand a doctor being reluctant to do something as permanent as a hysterectomy purely for reasons of controlling fertility on someone who is young and has had not children, and I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask the woman requesting it as a form of birth control to wait for a while before committing to it.
But that's not the primary reason you want the surgery. This is the best treatment available for your medical problem, and the biggest objection to it is a non-issue as far as you're concerned (even a side-benefit).
I think you need to approach your doctor and the other two again, and take discussions of how long you've known you didn't want to be a mommy off the table, along with discussions of your mental health. If your bi-polar disorder is under control, you are mentally healthy. Enough so as to make informed decisions about your medical care. Keep the discussion focused clearly on how to best treat your painful and debilitating condition, make it clear that you understand and accept the consequences of the best treatment (a partial hysterectomy), and talk about scheduling the procedure. Refuse to turn the conversation into being about what it's not.
Good luck.
134
IUD's make my cramps worse, and a non-hormonal IUD would not solve my "always-on-my-period" problem.
But I appreciate the help.
But I appreciate the help.
135
Would they be willing to do the surgery if you had your eggs frozen first? (If they're so convinced you'll change your mind)
136
They don't even need to freeze them. They are leaving my eggs in situo. All they are removing is my uterus.
137
Diane,
I'm getting sick of unpacking. I'm not answering any more questions about Sperm donation or my uterus. I'm sorry I brought it up. My mistake.
You have my sympathy. But I am concerned. There are too many psychiatrists involved here, and it sounds like they're getting deep into your physical health. I don't pretend to understand your gyne problems. But I'm certain that the no 1 surgical procedure for female sterilization is tubal ligation. A hysterectomy, even just partial, sounds a little too much like self-mutilation by surgical intervention. Your doctors may have legitimate concerns.
I'm getting sick of unpacking. I'm not answering any more questions about Sperm donation or my uterus. I'm sorry I brought it up. My mistake.
You have my sympathy. But I am concerned. There are too many psychiatrists involved here, and it sounds like they're getting deep into your physical health. I don't pretend to understand your gyne problems. But I'm certain that the no 1 surgical procedure for female sterilization is tubal ligation. A hysterectomy, even just partial, sounds a little too much like self-mutilation by surgical intervention. Your doctors may have legitimate concerns.
138
@Dianne
Haha, blonde moment. I guess my point being, if you did, in theory want to have kids some day (and I believe you when you say you won't!) you could just use a surrogate, no? The surgery doesn't prevent you from having children (there's adoption!) and it doesn't even prevent you from having biological children, if I'm understanding correctly...
Just seems strange to me.
Anyway, best of luck.
Haha, blonde moment. I guess my point being, if you did, in theory want to have kids some day (and I believe you when you say you won't!) you could just use a surrogate, no? The surgery doesn't prevent you from having children (there's adoption!) and it doesn't even prevent you from having biological children, if I'm understanding correctly...
Just seems strange to me.
Anyway, best of luck.
139
@106 Diane---I hope it works out for you. Keep your foot firmly down and continue to assert your needs.
Boy, can I ever relate to you!! Knowing I would have been a SHITTY mom (think Kathleen Turner in The War of the Roses), I focused on being a kick-ass aunt instead. Ironically, my oldest sister, now a grandmother, keeps asking me parental advice----25 years after rightfully chewing me out about how she was raising my niece and nephew when they were little. I vaguely remember saying something smugly sarcastic, so I most likely deserved her tongue-lashing.
I had to concede her point, having no kids of my own then or now. Because of this, I'll never give advice on parenting or marriage, either. I'm better off single.
Back in my stupid housewife days of being unhappily married, I had to battle my butt off in defending my choice not to have children to my spouse, his family, his friends "who all had kids", his chaplain, his employer, etc., etc. ad nauseum, with the only exceptions being MY parents and closest friends who were supportive of my decision.
Hang in there! I plan to throw a WILDLY INSANE party when I reach menopause!!
I'm gonna cool off my forecasted hot flashes with tee martoonis!!
All the best,
Auntie Grizelda
Boy, can I ever relate to you!! Knowing I would have been a SHITTY mom (think Kathleen Turner in The War of the Roses), I focused on being a kick-ass aunt instead. Ironically, my oldest sister, now a grandmother, keeps asking me parental advice----25 years after rightfully chewing me out about how she was raising my niece and nephew when they were little. I vaguely remember saying something smugly sarcastic, so I most likely deserved her tongue-lashing.
I had to concede her point, having no kids of my own then or now. Because of this, I'll never give advice on parenting or marriage, either. I'm better off single.
Back in my stupid housewife days of being unhappily married, I had to battle my butt off in defending my choice not to have children to my spouse, his family, his friends "who all had kids", his chaplain, his employer, etc., etc. ad nauseum, with the only exceptions being MY parents and closest friends who were supportive of my decision.
Hang in there! I plan to throw a WILDLY INSANE party when I reach menopause!!
I'm gonna cool off my forecasted hot flashes with tee martoonis!!
All the best,
Auntie Grizelda
140
@101 nocutename: I agree. There is no one "right" way; what works amazingly well for me might not for you. We should all be free to make our own decisions, especially when pursuing our joie de vive.
141
@137: A tubal ligation will not affect her bleeding. Look up the positions of the fallopian tubes vs the uterus on a diagram. Or, don't give people medical advice if you can't understand female anatomy/pathology.
142
@DianeLGD: I hope that your doctor starts to listen or that you can find another good quality doc who will. Based on what you've said, it sounds like you're making the most rational decisions possible, but your doctor is too caught up in emotion to be able to provide the best care to you.
RSS
Twitter
Comments (142) RSS