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Gay Panic Attack
January 9, 2013
+ Enlarge this Image
Joe Newton
I'm a straight male, 21 years old. I love women, I've always loved women, I've always loved having sex with women. However, in the last year, here and there, I've jerked off to transsexual porn. One night, after drinking with a friend and smoking some hash, I arranged a date with a trans sex worker. She was totally womanly, nothing manly about her, except for, you know. She licked my butt, gave me head, and fingered me. I've been on the receiving end of anal play before from girls, so nothing new. But somewhere during this encounter, I became the receiving partner during anal sex. At the time, I was too fucked up to care. But the next day, I started to feel REALLY bad. She was very safe and used condoms for everything. I just can't get past the fact that I did the gayest thing a guy can do. I feel really depressed about this traumatic situation. I can't seem to enjoy my life anymore. I've even felt somewhat suicidal. (I would never kill myself—I wouldn't do that to my family and friends.) I still want to date women and have sex with women. I don't regret being with a trans woman because I wanted to experiment. I've been tested since the encounter to make sure I didn't catch anything. What I regret is her sticking her thing in my butt. Can a single act like this make me gay? Please help.
Wrong Side Of Wild Side
Give yourself a break, WSOWS.
Yes, yes: You did the gayest thing a guy can do—you allowed someone to put a dick in your manbutt—but now you're doing the second-gayest thing a guy can do. You're being a huge drama queen about the whole thing. Stop acting so cray, as the kids say, and repeat after me: One dick in the ass does not a gay man make. Look at it this way: The difference between having a woman's finger in your ass and having a woman's dick in your ass is a matter of degree. If the woman's finger was fine—to say nothing of the woman's tongue—why freak out about the woman's dick? Remember: You don't sleep with men, you're not attracted to men. You made an exception for this woman's dick because her dick is exceptional: It's attached to a woman.
So maybe you took a longer walk on the wild side than you might have if you'd gone on that walk sober, WSOWS, but thankfully, your sex worker was conscientious and responsible and used condoms. So you didn't emerge from this encounter with anything more devastating than a touch of gay panic. Be a man about this—be a straight man about this—and walk it off, as the football coaches say.
Maybe this will help: Like a lot of gay men, I had sex with a woman before I came out. I did the straightest thing a guy can do—I put my dick in a vag—and it didn't make me straight. You did the gayest thing a guy can do—you let someone put a dick in your ass—but that didn't make you gay. Because you're not gay, WSOWS, and one ride on a trans escort's dick can't change that.
If nothing I've said has made you feel better, WSOWS, maybe this will: Gay men don't hire trans women sex workers. Wanting to be with a woman who has a dick is an almost exclusively straight male kink/obsession/wild side. Gay men are into dick, of course, but what we're really into is dudes. There are gay men out there who date and fuck and shack up with trans men—men with pussies—so not all gay men are after dick. What we're all after is dude.
If our gayness can't be defined solely by dick, WSOWS, then surely your straightness can't be undone entirely by dick.
I'm a married straight man. I recently spent a lovely day snorkeling with my wife in Mexico. We were grouped with three men who were obviously in a committed three-person relationship. I lacked the cojones to ask directly, but they had an extensive travel history together and lived together, everything was "we" this or that, and there were various PDA pairings during the day. They were lovely people. I wish we all lived in the same city, as it's hard to meet cool people who aren't exactly like you when you're married with kids. Several questions: (1) What do gay people call such a union? (2) Does the gay community think it's odd? Unremarkable? Sensible? (3) How does a union like that form? A couple adds a third? (4) Do these relationships last? Lots of pros and cons, just curious how it plays out.
Three-way Relationship Intrigues Oblivious Straights
1. Such unions are referred to as "throuples" by gays and straights. For a picture of the inner workings of a gay throuple, TRIOS, check out Molly Young's profile of one in New York magazine's most recent "Sex Issue." Benny, Jason, and Adrian are the men behind the popular "gipster" porn site CockyBoys.com, and you can read Young's piece about their home, work, and sex lives at tinyurl.com/gaythrup.
2. Some gay people think throuples are odd, some think they're unremarkable, and some think they're sensible. And some gay people—some dumb ones—think gay throuples are bad PR at a time when gay couples are fighting for the right to marry. But our fight is for equal rights, not double standards, and no one argues that straight marriage should be banned because of all the straight throuples, quadles, quintles, sextetles, etc. out there.
3. In my experience, yes, that's usually how it happens.
4. Throupledom presents unique challenges: Major life decisions require buy-in from three people; two can gang up against one during arguments; the partners who were coupled before the third came along may treat the third as a junior partner, not an equal partner, etc. But throupledom presents unique benefits, too: another set of hands to help around the house, another income to pay down the mortgage, another smiling face to sit on, etc. And it's not like coupledom is a surefire recipe for success. Half of all marriages—those traditional "one man, one woman, for life" marriages—end in divorce. Yet discussions of throupledom all seem to begin with the assumption that coupledom is a self-evidently more stable arrangement. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'd like to see some research comparing throuples to couples before I accept that premise.
I recently used the term "saddlebacking" to indicate the position where a man rubs his penis between his partner's ass cheeks as either foreplay or nonintercourse sex. My girlfriend, a regular reader of your column, insists that I used the term incorrectly. Did I?
Rubbed The Wrong Way
You did, RTWW. "Saddlebacking," as defined by Savage Love readers (the Académie Française of sexual neologisms), is when two straight teenagers, endeavoring to preserve an evangelical girl's virginity, engage in anal intercourse. This is a thing that really happens. Since anal sex isn't really sex, according to the abstinence educators evangelical teens are exposed to, many good Christian teenagers rationalize that getting fucked in the ass doesn't really count against a girl's virginity.
The act to which you refer—rubbing your penis between someone's ass cheeks as foreplay or as a substitute for intercourse—is known variously as frottage, outercourse, the Princeton Rub, or "the pearl tramp stamp." But in Chicago, it's known as "the Cardinal George."
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153
As for WSOWS, there have been some great responses:
@12 @38 (slinky) pointed out very well that penetration can be a very emotional boundary and that being under the influence is a fast track to poor decisions.
As as shy person, drinking a bit (not too much) helps me be more social and assertive with women. However, it is a slipery slope to poor decision making.
For a guy, loosing the "anal virginity" is probably emotionaly much closer to a girl loosing her virginity. To have this happen with a sex worker is traumatically for sure.
@57 also distinguishes quite well the difference between being gay and liking anal penetration and being fucked.
I totally can relate to this. I'm not a dominant male and I like when girls are on top (pun intended).
I haven't tried pegging but is definitely something I want to try. First I need to get a girlfriend but that is difficult due to my shyness. I only tried masturbating with a finger in my ass and it feels great.
As for the trans-porn, I also find it very hot but I had a similar reaction for WSOWS when I discovered trans-porn and that I got really aroused with it.
In the end, the most exciting thing is the power dynamics and that only makes me a kinky straight guy.
@12 @38 (slinky) pointed out very well that penetration can be a very emotional boundary and that being under the influence is a fast track to poor decisions.
As as shy person, drinking a bit (not too much) helps me be more social and assertive with women. However, it is a slipery slope to poor decision making.
For a guy, loosing the "anal virginity" is probably emotionaly much closer to a girl loosing her virginity. To have this happen with a sex worker is traumatically for sure.
@57 also distinguishes quite well the difference between being gay and liking anal penetration and being fucked.
I totally can relate to this. I'm not a dominant male and I like when girls are on top (pun intended).
I haven't tried pegging but is definitely something I want to try. First I need to get a girlfriend but that is difficult due to my shyness. I only tried masturbating with a finger in my ass and it feels great.
As for the trans-porn, I also find it very hot but I had a similar reaction for WSOWS when I discovered trans-porn and that I got really aroused with it.
In the end, the most exciting thing is the power dynamics and that only makes me a kinky straight guy.
151
Okay---for anyone interested, my high protein, high fat (within reason), no carbs / gluten and sugar-free diet is working wonders!! In addition, I am taking iron, B12 & Vitamin D supplements and thyroid medication along with my nightly blood pressure pill. Amazing!!! I think I might even be getting my sex drive back after all these years! YOWZA!!
WHY, however, did the VA LIE to me about nutrition over 19 years after I left the U.S. Navy? Processed foods, bread, pasta, rice, and potatoes were all killing me! At least I know now, and am doing something about it.
I don't know if I've actually lost any weight, but I certainly have lost inches that count--particularly around my former Buddha belly over the past two and a half weeks! One day, I can have dark chocolate again.
Best news of all: I recently dined out---and got carded---at age 48!
Our server got a good tip--it was a Kodak moment when she looked at my driver's license.
And I found my favorite Brad Pitt flick this weekend, too!!
WHY, however, did the VA LIE to me about nutrition over 19 years after I left the U.S. Navy? Processed foods, bread, pasta, rice, and potatoes were all killing me! At least I know now, and am doing something about it.
I don't know if I've actually lost any weight, but I certainly have lost inches that count--particularly around my former Buddha belly over the past two and a half weeks! One day, I can have dark chocolate again.
Best news of all: I recently dined out---and got carded---at age 48!
Our server got a good tip--it was a Kodak moment when she looked at my driver's license.
And I found my favorite Brad Pitt flick this weekend, too!!
150
Yeah, the common term (among poly and non-poly people who I've encountered) is "triad" -- I've only heard "throuple" (which makes me want to throw up a little -- it sounds like a bit of vomit in the mouth) from cutesy straight female writers who think they're being daring in discussing *OMG CONSENSUAL NONMONOGAMY" in a breathless tone like it's just been invented.
(I am a bi woman who is part of an FFM triad, fwiw.)
However, I'm not a gay man -- is this common parlance in your circles, Dan? I'm fairly active in the in-person and online poly circles, and "triad" and occasionally "trio/threesome" are the terms I see in use. "V/Vee" would be a 3-person relationship where one person is involved with 2 others, but they aren't involved with each other.
I use "triad" and think a threesome is something you DO, not something you ARE (it's 3 people fucking, but not necessarily 3 people dating -- and plenty of triads aren't into threesome sex.) With that said, if that's the term that someone else is happy/comfortable with, more power to 'em.
Gay male poly people -- is "triad" or "throuple" the term you use most?
(I am a bi woman who is part of an FFM triad, fwiw.)
However, I'm not a gay man -- is this common parlance in your circles, Dan? I'm fairly active in the in-person and online poly circles, and "triad" and occasionally "trio/threesome" are the terms I see in use. "V/Vee" would be a 3-person relationship where one person is involved with 2 others, but they aren't involved with each other.
I use "triad" and think a threesome is something you DO, not something you ARE (it's 3 people fucking, but not necessarily 3 people dating -- and plenty of triads aren't into threesome sex.) With that said, if that's the term that someone else is happy/comfortable with, more power to 'em.
Gay male poly people -- is "triad" or "throuple" the term you use most?
149
"Stop acting so crazy!"
Nice reference to Jimi Hendrix lyrics "Fire", released Sept. '69.
The kids, indeed.
Nice reference to Jimi Hendrix lyrics "Fire", released Sept. '69.
The kids, indeed.
148
Sydney Australia has a ultra conservative, anti-equality, looking the other way history with sex offenders in the church Cardinal: Cardinal George Pell. I'd love to get 'Cardinal George into common usage here.
Maybe a 'Dan goes Down Under' tour could help the campaign?
Maybe a 'Dan goes Down Under' tour could help the campaign?
147
One experience don't make you gay.
Any straight dude in this experience would've done the same, and questioned it.
I don't think he thinks he's gay, he just thinks what he did was gay.
If you're straight and you end up on drugs and booze, (I've been high on coke and whiskey and done some strange things), you'll
Without a doubt question yourself. It's fucking normal. Not all men are going to be cool and open-minded enough to look back and say "yo, I took a dick in my ass! Awesome.". It's just not the way out society works. And on top
Of that many trans sex workers state that the men who visit the
Are usually straight men lookin for something new. All the people saying otherwise are gay men who have a lot of self-hatred issues.
Any straight dude in this experience would've done the same, and questioned it.
I don't think he thinks he's gay, he just thinks what he did was gay.
If you're straight and you end up on drugs and booze, (I've been high on coke and whiskey and done some strange things), you'll
Without a doubt question yourself. It's fucking normal. Not all men are going to be cool and open-minded enough to look back and say "yo, I took a dick in my ass! Awesome.". It's just not the way out society works. And on top
Of that many trans sex workers state that the men who visit the
Are usually straight men lookin for something new. All the people saying otherwise are gay men who have a lot of self-hatred issues.
146
I think WSOWS just realized that in te end, the fantasies of being dominated weren't what he wanted realistically. Your life is a story, and when you make bad decisions you taint it. That's what I think happened here.
145
I think I'm going red meat crazy due to my new no-carb, gluten-free, no sugar diet. I can eat all the red meat, cheese, eggs, and dairy products (except whipped cream and ice cream, of course) and veggies (except carrots and potatoes) I want. No bread, pasta, or rice--largely because it's all processed. No fruit, either, because of fructose. Sadly, I have discovered that I have Type II Diabetes. The good news is that I'm 48, not 78, and can reverse my high blood sugar situation (I'm a walking industrial-sized can of Hershey's syrup right now). Hopefully one day I can enjoy chocolate again without threatening to accidentally kill myself.
WHERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRE'S the BEEF???
@143: Okay. I'll buy that.
@144: I do have to admit, I like the fingernail polish. The red meat penis is quite the hypnotic distraction for me.
WHERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRE'S the BEEF???
@143: Okay. I'll buy that.
@144: I do have to admit, I like the fingernail polish. The red meat penis is quite the hypnotic distraction for me.
142
Okay. it must be the steak and red wine of a new diet for 2013 talking, in addition to my staggering off topic once again, but what IS it about the
red meat penis in the Smitten Kitten ad?
Is it SUPPOSED to be hypnotic (to sell red meat penises)?
I'm getting enough red meat at home, however carnivorous!
red meat penis in the Smitten Kitten ad?
Is it SUPPOSED to be hypnotic (to sell red meat penises)?
I'm getting enough red meat at home, however carnivorous!
140
I've been in a triple for the past 15 years. Add me to the list of people who have never heard the term "throuple" (which gets a mere 5000 hits on google, ore evidence that it's not the usual term).
137
Maybe 70% of gay men are bottoms, and enjoying it has to do with how it feels, one doesn't even have to be attracted to the guy fucking you. As for straight men, they have all the same nerve endings down there, and I've heard there are some straight bottoms out there who are not particularly attracted to men, but like how it feels. Among Latinos, if you are a bottom that makes you gay -- while you can top a guy and still consider yourself straight. In a way, that is ridiculous. In order to top a guy you have to be attracted enough to be able to "get it up." But the way guys are, they will adhere to any convention that allows them to have the kind of sex they want while preserving their sense of masculinity. As far as I'm concerned -- let them.
136
PS, thanks, vennominon, for demonstrating that it is possible for us old people to change our minds. I learn something new every day :-)
135
vennominon@134: Personally, I don't find the debate about "X is objectifying" to be helpful. I believe we objectify other people all the time, even our colleagues and friends and lovers, and so I don't think it's a good way to decide whether one is behaving badly or not.
I'd rather focus on whether we are being useful and kind. Hiring a sex worker is useful to the sex worker, obviously. We have no reason to think WSOWS was unkind during the evening, so I give him the benefit of the doubt there.
But when people in the trans or genderqueer community complain that others only see them as freaks who are unsuitable for real relationships, I don't argue with them. I try to listen and learn. (Apologies for the sanctimony.)
I'd rather focus on whether we are being useful and kind. Hiring a sex worker is useful to the sex worker, obviously. We have no reason to think WSOWS was unkind during the evening, so I give him the benefit of the doubt there.
But when people in the trans or genderqueer community complain that others only see them as freaks who are unsuitable for real relationships, I don't argue with them. I try to listen and learn. (Apologies for the sanctimony.)
134
One thing about which I have changed my mind is that, on a reread, I shall agree with the objection to "Wanting to be with a woman who has a dick is an almost exclusively straight male kink/obsession/wild side." I took it at first in context with the rest of the paragraph and am prepared to accept the evidence of the mailbag, but at best it's ugly phrasing.
I was hoping that Ms Erica, who seems perhaps the most just judge in this area, would opine on the "objectification vs nice date" idea that originated in #106, as I really don't know what to make of that.
I was hoping that Ms Erica, who seems perhaps the most just judge in this area, would opine on the "objectification vs nice date" idea that originated in #106, as I really don't know what to make of that.
133
Dan, did you just want to make TRIOS embarrass himself in public by using the word "throuple" instead of "triad"? The linguistic equivalent of giving someone Kalteen bars to lose weight, eh?
132
I cop to not having read all previous comments, so please forgive me if someone has said this before, but if a two-person relationship grouping is called a "couple," should not a three-person one be called a "few?"
131
I'm sorry. I don't believe being straight is "better", but I do believe it's a helluva lot easier.
130
@127, in other words: if you want to change my mind about whether old people like us can change their minds, then change your mind about whether it's appropriate to be snarky to transpeople and the genderqueer.
129
@127, if you want another fight, seandr... Your post @123 is what made me think of the saying. You think you're on the side of the angels, and all you can do is be mean to Maybe-bigendered @121. Criminey. Maybe-bigendered was criticizing Dan; ya think maybe Dan's a big boy who knows how to take criticism and turn it into publicity? Maybe you could try to post with a little more compassion and less snark for people who are clearly facing a harder slog in life than most of us do?
128
I think WSOWS is a good lad, he just went too far in regards to his sexual boundaries and doesn't know how to deal with it.
I mean, for a straight kid, that's a big fucking deal, but he was obviously in a wierd state of mind. It happens, and it happens to a lot of dudes who shack up with other dudes not ts girls.
And I don't think he's homophobic, or transphobic. He called the worker a she, an asked Dan of all people.
Kudos to the kid for discovering himself, and knowing what's right and wrong for him sexually. Eventually he'll get over it.
I mean, for a straight kid, that's a big fucking deal, but he was obviously in a wierd state of mind. It happens, and it happens to a lot of dudes who shack up with other dudes not ts girls.
And I don't think he's homophobic, or transphobic. He called the worker a she, an asked Dan of all people.
Kudos to the kid for discovering himself, and knowing what's right and wrong for him sexually. Eventually he'll get over it.
127
@EricaP, @vennominon: People don't change their minds. They die...
The second part is certainly true, but the first part is a self-fulfilling prophecy that sells people short.
The second part is certainly true, but the first part is a self-fulfilling prophecy that sells people short.
126
Ms Erica - You may have hit on something here. If the saying were to hold particular aptness regarding trans issues, I can see where Mr Savage might be at odds, so much of his philosophy on coming out being that people can and do change their minds all the time.
125
@124 EricaP
Yep, and I'm raising the next generation. Three of them. All of them LGBT-friendly before puberty - my biggest achievement.
I can't know in advance what they're going to be, right ? So whatever they discover they are when puberty hits, they already have had years knowing that it will be normal and nothing to be ashamed of. And what they're raised to consider as normal in themselves, they'll find obviously all right in others. And they'll tell their friends.
Knowledge is power. Thanks Dan for making it available to us parents, so that we raise considerate humans instead of jerks.
Has any other parent out there remarked how spontaneously little kids will describe the whole spectrum of orientations when they talk of their future ? I've heard kindergarten girls saying they would get married together, or form a trio with a boy, and boys saying they would grow up to be women.
Pre-teen role-play conforms a lot more to the hetero model - I guess because adults have had time to fill them with heteronormative talks.
Yep, and I'm raising the next generation. Three of them. All of them LGBT-friendly before puberty - my biggest achievement.
I can't know in advance what they're going to be, right ? So whatever they discover they are when puberty hits, they already have had years knowing that it will be normal and nothing to be ashamed of. And what they're raised to consider as normal in themselves, they'll find obviously all right in others. And they'll tell their friends.
Knowledge is power. Thanks Dan for making it available to us parents, so that we raise considerate humans instead of jerks.
Has any other parent out there remarked how spontaneously little kids will describe the whole spectrum of orientations when they talk of their future ? I've heard kindergarten girls saying they would get married together, or form a trio with a boy, and boys saying they would grow up to be women.
Pre-teen role-play conforms a lot more to the hetero model - I guess because adults have had time to fill them with heteronormative talks.
124
@121 "My gut is that it will take large, influential swaths of straights to see trans women as sisters they can love [and befriend] as individuals"
Yes, and this is starting to happen in the younger generation. Brings to mind this saying:
"People don't change their minds. They die, and are replaced by people with different opinions."
Yes, and this is starting to happen in the younger generation. Brings to mind this saying:
"People don't change their minds. They die, and are replaced by people with different opinions."
123
@121: But here's a full column that considers a trans woman as merely a sexual toy
This column was about a boy who got more than he bargained for from a transsexual sex worker. Perhaps you're confusing it with something else you read or heard?
This column was about a boy who got more than he bargained for from a transsexual sex worker. Perhaps you're confusing it with something else you read or heard?
121
I'm sorry, Hunter78. That's a sad story. May she rest in peace, my friend.
Does your story incidentally illustrate that ambient attitudes re trans women were--and remain--troubling in ways that don't always have an obvious answer?. Ways far deeper than using the proper pronouns--or labeling a hooker a hooker, or not. Ways even sex columnist dsavage has a prominent history (and continuing record) of simply getting wrong.
Love vibes to all those who don't fit the cis binary--and those who love them, in whatever still-totally-real-and-worthwhile way. My gut is that it will take large, influential swaths of straights to see trans women as sisters they can love as individuals, even if just platonic best friends sometimes--for much progress to occur for many trans women. Lg folk have seen progress in this regard--to be seen as people first. But here's a full column that considers a trans woman as merely a sexual toy that you don't want to let yourself get too involved with. How dehumanizing. From someone like Dan: sad, shortsighted.
Maybe Dan is just blind to trans issues; a lot of straights are blind to lgb issues. I'm only a soul here figuring it out for me, in my own private way. Out.
Does your story incidentally illustrate that ambient attitudes re trans women were--and remain--troubling in ways that don't always have an obvious answer?. Ways far deeper than using the proper pronouns--or labeling a hooker a hooker, or not. Ways even sex columnist dsavage has a prominent history (and continuing record) of simply getting wrong.
Love vibes to all those who don't fit the cis binary--and those who love them, in whatever still-totally-real-and-worthwhile way. My gut is that it will take large, influential swaths of straights to see trans women as sisters they can love as individuals, even if just platonic best friends sometimes--for much progress to occur for many trans women. Lg folk have seen progress in this regard--to be seen as people first. But here's a full column that considers a trans woman as merely a sexual toy that you don't want to let yourself get too involved with. How dehumanizing. From someone like Dan: sad, shortsighted.
Maybe Dan is just blind to trans issues; a lot of straights are blind to lgb issues. I'm only a soul here figuring it out for me, in my own private way. Out.
120
It was decades ago I met T in a trendy bar. There was a spark between us. She was model-beautiful, much better than I usually get. Willowy and perfect skin. Soon we were out and on the wharf, making-out like teenagers. I remember my finger sliding easily up her ass. Off to her place, a loft apt in a hi-rise dilapidated downtown dept bldg. We were spooning in her bed. My hand reached around to touch her front. Her hand stopped mine. She was in transition, and her front wasn't done.
I was stunned. She wasn't what I wanted. I stole away in dawn's early light.
I never saw her again. I didn't ask about her. But I caught ear-glimpses in idle chatter. She had moved to New York, glowed in the alternative scene, started in underground movies. Then I heard she took her life.
I was stunned. She wasn't what I wanted. I stole away in dawn's early light.
I never saw her again. I didn't ask about her. But I caught ear-glimpses in idle chatter. She had moved to New York, glowed in the alternative scene, started in underground movies. Then I heard she took her life.
119
The first guy. Whatever, Dan. You spent way too much column space on this kid. He's not gay. It’s all about the “who” not the “what” and by the way, there are many really dude crazy, total homo gay guys who also don't like anal. Done.
Speaking of anal; I think Dan pulled "throuple" out of his butt. WTF? I've never heard that. Triad maybe. Threesome (even for committed triads)but never heard of throuple. That's not even easy to say without sounding kind of lame.
Speaking of anal; I think Dan pulled "throuple" out of his butt. WTF? I've never heard that. Triad maybe. Threesome (even for committed triads)but never heard of throuple. That's not even easy to say without sounding kind of lame.
118
@115: Both WSOWS and Dan refer to the trans sex worker as "she" and "her; both describe her respectfully; both acknowledge and appreciate her conscientious behaviour around practicing safer sex. I see nothing disrepectful or dehumanizing in how she is treated in this letter or its response.
If you are referring to what you said in your first unregistered comment @106, where you described "the transexual he objectified by hiring --instead of taking her on a nice date," you may want to look up the definition of sex worker.
Am I objectifying my plumber when I hire him to clear my drains instead of taking him on a nice date?
If you are referring to what you said in your first unregistered comment @106, where you described "the transexual he objectified by hiring --instead of taking her on a nice date," you may want to look up the definition of sex worker.
Am I objectifying my plumber when I hire him to clear my drains instead of taking him on a nice date?
117
@93 con't - Not that he couldn't have withdrawn consent in the middle of it, but he didn't indicate that in any way. It does get into that substance use gray area I suppose - but if he felt he was capable of consent in all other areas it seems unlikely he considers this one portion of the evening (I imagine he wasn't consuming alcohol or hash during sex) as rape.
116
@93 - I think it's probably a bit difficult to be raped by a hooker. Doesn't one pay in advance? And specifics are hashed out?
115
@109: because wsos needs to learn--and better at a tender age--that he should show respect to trans women too. Dan failed to teach him that. Instead, Dan and wsos had a frat-boy-type conversation above--both exuding effemmaphobia and trans phobia. The never-humanized OTHER throughout is the trans woman prostitute. Wsos is as complicit as Dan in this.
See also my above comments before I registered.
See also my above comments before I registered.
114
@112:
I'd say, "Being gay is about what goes on between your ears, not between your ass cheeks."
I'd say, "Being gay is about what goes on between your ears, not between your ass cheeks."
113
As a confused/traumatized participant of this outercourse phenomenon, my friends nicknamed it both hotdogging (meat between two buns) and crackerjacking (jacking off with my crack).
Can we add those to the Savage Love dictionary?
Can we add those to the Savage Love dictionary?
111
Of course "throuples" are odd. Obviously. Same with qiuntoples and septouples. And single people, for that matter.
110
@109: What hating on WSOWS? I was only laughing (re: @19) because
WSOWS's letter reminded me of a series of screamingly fake-sounding letters to Savage Love that Dan calls "How'd That Happen?!?" or "HTH"
letters (for more on HTHs, read Dan's compilation of previously printed Savage Love reader mail in his book, Savage Love).
To me, WSOWS's letter sounded a little over-reactionary (see the HTH letter to Dan from the "200% Straight Guy"). WSOWS can be gay, heterosexual, bi, tranny, or a pin-striped unicorn.
Whatever. That's his choice to make at age 21.
WSOWS: don't freak out---you've got the rest of your life to discover what turns you on.
WSOWS's letter reminded me of a series of screamingly fake-sounding letters to Savage Love that Dan calls "How'd That Happen?!?" or "HTH"
letters (for more on HTHs, read Dan's compilation of previously printed Savage Love reader mail in his book, Savage Love).
To me, WSOWS's letter sounded a little over-reactionary (see the HTH letter to Dan from the "200% Straight Guy"). WSOWS can be gay, heterosexual, bi, tranny, or a pin-striped unicorn.
Whatever. That's his choice to make at age 21.
WSOWS: don't freak out---you've got the rest of your life to discover what turns you on.
109
Why all the hating on WSOWS? He's 21 fer chrissakes, cut him some slack. I give him points for being brave enough to explore his kinks at such a tender age. It's stupid to say he shouldn't be concerned if he WERE gay -- it's a major identity thing that could be expected to rock his world a bit, doesn't mean he's a homophobe. He wrote to Dan asking to be educated and that's what he got. Be nice.
108
As my just-prior comments show... Dan's trans phobia is as entrenched as ever. He's just "modernized" it a little bit. What a hypocrite.
107
What #38 said.
Shame on you, Dan Savage. Apparently you can't see that throwing your trans sisters under the bus is shameful!!
" "Are you F*CKING kidding me with this effeminophobic, essentializing, b*llsh*t? I guess it was in service of a joke, which means it's totally fine...how can the creator of "It's Get Better" not be critical about attaching negative attributes to the gay label? In case this comes as a surprise to you Dan, gay people are bullied much more for being gender atypical than they are for who they fuck. And you essentially just said "dude, stop being so gay"...REALLY? REALLY?! "
Shame on you, Dan Savage. Apparently you can't see that throwing your trans sisters under the bus is shameful!!
" "Are you F*CKING kidding me with this effeminophobic, essentializing, b*llsh*t? I guess it was in service of a joke, which means it's totally fine...how can the creator of "It's Get Better" not be critical about attaching negative attributes to the gay label? In case this comes as a surprise to you Dan, gay people are bullied much more for being gender atypical than they are for who they fuck. And you essentially just said "dude, stop being so gay"...REALLY? REALLY?! "
106
Wsos is a douchebag. The transexual he objectified by hiring --instead of taking her on a nice date--should refuse to take his calls.
Wsos is so insecure about his own personhood that he globs his vey WORTH onto being "straight." God I hate people like that.
Wsos likes trans women but feels ENTITLED to consider himself superior.
Wsos is what's wrong with the world.
Why do I have trouble having ANY sympathy for wsos?!
Wsos is so insecure about his own personhood that he globs his vey WORTH onto being "straight." God I hate people like that.
Wsos likes trans women but feels ENTITLED to consider himself superior.
Wsos is what's wrong with the world.
Why do I have trouble having ANY sympathy for wsos?!
105
I'm completely with #14 & others on "triad." (1) It's the common term I've heard among people I know who are in such relationships. (2) It's an actual English-language word, whereas the neologism "throuples" presumes "couples" are the norm, and triads a deviation which must be understood in terms of its relation to that norm.
104
M le Marquis - Well, let's look at the first two paragraphs.
1. You committed a Very Gay Act.
2. Freaking out badly = Another Very Gay Act.
3. Gay = "Cray"
4. #1 is not incontrovertible proof.
5. Relax, you're not gay.
6. Trans women are women.
7. Relax, you're not gay.
8. You're straight; alright, already?
9. So it wasn't a perfect encounter.
10. You're just having a panic - which is GAY.
11. You're not gay, so BE A MAN.
12. Straight dudes be HEROES.
13. You're straight; you can take it.
The rest of the answer I didn't mind. The only way one can take the first two paragraphs as not being homophobic or at least anti-gay is because one knows that Mr Savage likes to make this sort of in joke in order to convince the "str8" crowd what a Cool Homo he is. Though I've never seen it, I've heard enough about it to guess with some confidence that I can blame South Park.
But the thing about this sort of in joke, if overused, is that the people who really think like that just pick up the reinforcement of their prejudice. If I were to imagine two teenagers reading this column, say, perhaps, a gay potential suicide and someone who might enjoy bullying him into it, the bully would enjoy the first two paragraphs a lot more than the victim. My contention is that this was not necessary. The LW could still have been reassured *without* giving aid and comfort to the anti-gay crowd.
I can appreciate Mr Savage's intent. He perhaps thinks that by appealing to the subconscious of the anti-gay crowd that some of them can be converted. He's quite skillful; at times he almost reminds me of that malevolent but brilliant showman Derren Brown. Like most of those who overdo in jokes, Mr S just gives people too much credit and overestimates how many people really take the true point. And there could be an element mixed in that makes this similar to the way some women go out of their way to make sure people don't think they're feminists.
I am prepared to concede that it is possible that those who would take aid and comfort and be reassured in their anti-gay beliefs from the first two paragraphs of this answer might not constitute a large portion of Mr Savage's audience.
But to all the straight people who are so eager to defend the answer as neither containing nor feeding anti-gay prejudice, I close with a parallel. This answer did strike me, as it has struck others, as being reasonably trans correct, if not downright trans positive. Unless I missed it, there has been no trans person in this thread arguing to the contrary. However, if one did, I should be quite prepared to give such an argument (especially if it weren't contradicted by someone with equal standing) a good listen and a good think before replying (if I did at all, which I probably wouldn't). I am not as skillful as I'd like to be at being able to tell those less privileged than I why they're being over-sensitive.
More...
1. You committed a Very Gay Act.
2. Freaking out badly = Another Very Gay Act.
3. Gay = "Cray"
4. #1 is not incontrovertible proof.
5. Relax, you're not gay.
6. Trans women are women.
7. Relax, you're not gay.
8. You're straight; alright, already?
9. So it wasn't a perfect encounter.
10. You're just having a panic - which is GAY.
11. You're not gay, so BE A MAN.
12. Straight dudes be HEROES.
13. You're straight; you can take it.
The rest of the answer I didn't mind. The only way one can take the first two paragraphs as not being homophobic or at least anti-gay is because one knows that Mr Savage likes to make this sort of in joke in order to convince the "str8" crowd what a Cool Homo he is. Though I've never seen it, I've heard enough about it to guess with some confidence that I can blame South Park.
But the thing about this sort of in joke, if overused, is that the people who really think like that just pick up the reinforcement of their prejudice. If I were to imagine two teenagers reading this column, say, perhaps, a gay potential suicide and someone who might enjoy bullying him into it, the bully would enjoy the first two paragraphs a lot more than the victim. My contention is that this was not necessary. The LW could still have been reassured *without* giving aid and comfort to the anti-gay crowd.
I can appreciate Mr Savage's intent. He perhaps thinks that by appealing to the subconscious of the anti-gay crowd that some of them can be converted. He's quite skillful; at times he almost reminds me of that malevolent but brilliant showman Derren Brown. Like most of those who overdo in jokes, Mr S just gives people too much credit and overestimates how many people really take the true point. And there could be an element mixed in that makes this similar to the way some women go out of their way to make sure people don't think they're feminists.
I am prepared to concede that it is possible that those who would take aid and comfort and be reassured in their anti-gay beliefs from the first two paragraphs of this answer might not constitute a large portion of Mr Savage's audience.
But to all the straight people who are so eager to defend the answer as neither containing nor feeding anti-gay prejudice, I close with a parallel. This answer did strike me, as it has struck others, as being reasonably trans correct, if not downright trans positive. Unless I missed it, there has been no trans person in this thread arguing to the contrary. However, if one did, I should be quite prepared to give such an argument (especially if it weren't contradicted by someone with equal standing) a good listen and a good think before replying (if I did at all, which I probably wouldn't). I am not as skillful as I'd like to be at being able to tell those less privileged than I why they're being over-sensitive.
103
I know it's a little late in the game but I have a question that I would seriously like an answer to. The first time your ass takes a dick, I assume that's going to hurt right, my understand is that one has to have that shit eeeeased in, be comfortable with the person, the situation etc if you're a rookie right ? What are the odds that this dude is a virgin based on his ability to get down like that ? I assume that he's had all kinds of stuff up there before, what he thinks about when he's doing that I guess is important but, is this guy as nieve as he is putting on ? I just don't buy it... The whole thing sounds like he's really trying to convince us that he just slipped on a dick.
102
Those arguing three legs are better than two,
besides denying your own existence, if triads are so strong, why haven't they been more successful?
besides denying your own existence, if triads are so strong, why haven't they been more successful?
101
I'm in a three-way closed polyamorous LTR and I have never even heard of the term "throuple". We refer to ourselves as a triad. I agree with #97, it must be a regional thing. I'm Midwestern.
100
"Remember: You don't sleep with men, you're not attracted to men. You made an exception for this woman's dick because her dick is exceptional: It's attached to a woman."
Dan, you were amazingly nice and comforting WSOWS - nicely done, hopefully he can deal with his attraction and enjoy it rather than stress out.
Dan, you were amazingly nice and comforting WSOWS - nicely done, hopefully he can deal with his attraction and enjoy it rather than stress out.
99
It seems to me that there are a lot gayer things than bottoming, right? I'm straight, and I'd do that 10 times over before I'd suck a dick, for instance.
98
@89/91, thanks for the perspective. I know someone who does tend to bounce from one porn obsession to another one, and I find it hard to keep up with how he sees himself and his interests. So I find the topic interesting.
97
Maybe it's a regional thing, but everyone I know who has been in a three partner relationship calls it a triad.
96
I think Dan's answer to LW1 was spot on. I understand that he could've perhaps touched on the whole "i'm gay = suicide" thing a little more. But his message his clear:
Being gay is fine (do people seriously think Dan has issues with it?!), but chances are you are not gay. By freaking out about being gay you are being stupid.
LW1 just seems to be dealing with internalized homophobia, and I really doubt Dan tearing into him (like some have suggested) would have done any good. The guy knows to some degree he's being stupid, and I doubt that he would have sought out Dan's advice if he was consciously homophobic. He just had his first taste of something 'queer' and is having emotions he wasn't expecting. He didn't phrase his letter welll but we can't all be enlightend sexual being such as ourselves now can we?
Being gay is fine (do people seriously think Dan has issues with it?!), but chances are you are not gay. By freaking out about being gay you are being stupid.
LW1 just seems to be dealing with internalized homophobia, and I really doubt Dan tearing into him (like some have suggested) would have done any good. The guy knows to some degree he's being stupid, and I doubt that he would have sought out Dan's advice if he was consciously homophobic. He just had his first taste of something 'queer' and is having emotions he wasn't expecting. He didn't phrase his letter welll but we can't all be enlightend sexual being such as ourselves now can we?
95
@93 - The issue here isn't that LW1 didn't consent to the sex. He admits that he'd been thinking about TS women for awhile, and had the wherewithal to hire one. And he has no problem admiting that a lot of the stuff he did he was (and still is) perfectly fine with. As for the actual anal sex, we don't know quite what happened there. I don't think that his worker would've started fucking him apropos of nothing. LW1 doesn't even claim that it wasn't consensual. It was consensual then, but he feels bad about it now. Big difference.
94
A couple people have used the word "tourism" disparagingly. It seems to mean that a "tourist" is interested in what other people are doing without doing it themselves. Is that right? If so, why is that bad?
93
I think that if this was a woman, and she was stoned/drunk, and she woke up the next day feeling this upsetand depressed, we would automatically say that she was raped, and that she should get therapy, and perhaps talk to law enforcement.
Its obvious that this guy did not consent to this act.
Its obvious that this guy did not consent to this act.
92
One of the great adventures of life is figuring out who you are. The greater the difference between who we portray ourselves as/think we are and the actuality, the bumpier the ride. Witness LW1. I thought Dan struck a good balance between "grow the fuck up" & being a sympathetic ear and offering goods advice.....Vennominon's comment(@78) is a good addition:
"And when you've calmed down about this, you might want to stop thinking gay people should all kill themselves," or something to that effect".
Gay/straight, feminine/masculine, want pussy/want dick, want to dominate/be dominated- they're all continuums and where we fall on one doesn't necessarily determine where we fall on the others. Realizing that makes unnecessary much mental anguish.
"And when you've calmed down about this, you might want to stop thinking gay people should all kill themselves," or something to that effect".
Gay/straight, feminine/masculine, want pussy/want dick, want to dominate/be dominated- they're all continuums and where we fall on one doesn't necessarily determine where we fall on the others. Realizing that makes unnecessary much mental anguish.
91
Sorry, that should have said addiction, not addition. I've never put much stock in the sex addiction thing, compared to opiates/booze/etc, but I've been rethinking that one.
This site seems to be about the science that might support that kind of view
This site seems to be about the science that might support that kind of view
90
I admit I haven't had time to read all the posts, but I do hope I am the first to fantasize about going "thrnorkling" in Mexico. Or actually anywhere.
89
@75, Erica, I don't think the point of that site is anti-porn or masturbation in any moral sense.
The people talking about going so long without it are trying to change their brain wiring over a period of time to break a cycle where its interfering with their sexual lives, normal erections, and leading to compulsive behaviour. I think they're calling it a reboot, in order to restore some normal brain wiring. They aren't against masturbation or sex during that period, and their issue with porn isn't moral, its technical.
I think the following on community, the Reddit nofap crowd, is possibly, however, a bit puritanical it seems.
I think the point is that for many males at least, the biology of novelty seeking brains and internet porn intersect to interfere with healthy sexuality in some, something that Dan pointed out by coming around on the MakeLoveNotPorn lady's point.
A lot of Dan's responses have addressed the guys going to porn over their partners, this is about the portion of the population that is compulsive about porn (whether it counts in the same category as addition is an open question). But there seems to be a focus on science, not morality there.
The people talking about going so long without it are trying to change their brain wiring over a period of time to break a cycle where its interfering with their sexual lives, normal erections, and leading to compulsive behaviour. I think they're calling it a reboot, in order to restore some normal brain wiring. They aren't against masturbation or sex during that period, and their issue with porn isn't moral, its technical.
I think the following on community, the Reddit nofap crowd, is possibly, however, a bit puritanical it seems.
I think the point is that for many males at least, the biology of novelty seeking brains and internet porn intersect to interfere with healthy sexuality in some, something that Dan pointed out by coming around on the MakeLoveNotPorn lady's point.
A lot of Dan's responses have addressed the guys going to porn over their partners, this is about the portion of the population that is compulsive about porn (whether it counts in the same category as addition is an open question). But there seems to be a focus on science, not morality there.
88
If people could stop thinking in such dualistic terms, maybe people like LW1 would freak out less. Everyone wants to think of the world as divided into straights and gays (and for that matter, men and women).
It's not at all so black and white. There's a reason that the rainbow celebrates our diversity. Everyone just likes what they like—if people could stop worrying so much about the label and what that must mean for their identities, it would all be a lot easier on everyone.
It's not at all so black and white. There's a reason that the rainbow celebrates our diversity. Everyone just likes what they like—if people could stop worrying so much about the label and what that must mean for their identities, it would all be a lot easier on everyone.
87
@82: Writing MTF (or FTM) is pretty short. Shorter than "tranny" even though you have to hit the shift key. I hear people say transwoman, transman or transpeople. Or the trans community.
86
Ugh, why do people think Dan is transphobic? This column is another shining example of his support of trans people.
83
79- Skye Blu-- A pyramid can support more weight than a cube? It's ridiculous enough in the first place to find justification for human relationships with analogies to the laws of physics, but if you are going to draw such analogies, your purported "law" should at least make sense. Think for a second. Visualize a cube. Visualize a pyramid. Do the math. What size pyramid? What size cube? Made of what materials? Resting on what surface? On what universe does the pyramid support more weight?
82
@bookaday: how on earth do you people (and by you people I mean Savage readers) keep up?
Well, as someone who has exactly one transgendered friend who only recently came out to her broader circle of friends and hasn't invited me to ask any stupid questions, everything I know is from here.
Here's a free tip - don't say "tranny". May seem like nothing more that a cute, innocent shortening of the term "transsexual", but it has been designated by the powers that be as a vicious slur. There may be acceptable, less formal alternatives to "transsexual" or "transgendered persons", but I don't know what they are.
Well, as someone who has exactly one transgendered friend who only recently came out to her broader circle of friends and hasn't invited me to ask any stupid questions, everything I know is from here.
Here's a free tip - don't say "tranny". May seem like nothing more that a cute, innocent shortening of the term "transsexual", but it has been designated by the powers that be as a vicious slur. There may be acceptable, less formal alternatives to "transsexual" or "transgendered persons", but I don't know what they are.
81
I did not like the column today, or Dan's reply to the first letter writer. I also thought the 2nd was pedestrian tourism. It was a levity provider. I like what about half the commenters said. I appreciated the critique of Dan's relative insensativity to the first Lw. I sypathize with the 1st lw. I understand his freak out, he sounds like he was violated to me. Maybe today is the day when Erica P(rolific) should launch her own website-blog.
80
I am a woman who, would like to start a business for dykes only. I feel they do not get the love they need, and women, like me will be willing and waiting to lick their asses and suck their pussies. For a fee of course. I do not believe in fake dicks or fake anything. The tongue will be sufficient. Dykes must be clean and germ free, as I--documents must be presented before any contract is signed. SweetPussy
79
Since I've been in a triad for ten years I feel qualified to say thruple sucks- it sounds like something you got from unsanitary toilet seats. We have always called ourselves a triple- like a couple only moreso. Being all female helped I think, but it seems sexist to claim men are incapable of intimacy and gay relationships are doomed from the start. What makes any relationship work is people who are invested in their partners and the relationship.
A three-legged stool is more balanced than a ladder. A pyramid can support more weight than a cube.
A three-legged stool is more balanced than a ladder. A pyramid can support more weight than a cube.
78
There are ways Mr Savage could have made the second-most comment just as effective without being gay-knocking. And I can stand some gay-knocking from Mr Savage, though sometimes his motivation seems more honourable than it does others. Had that comment stood alone, I'd probably not have mentioned it.
And it's not that I think the LW is all that homophobic NOW. As Ms Cute picked up, he seems potentially headed in that direction if his idea that HOMOSEXUALITY JUSTIFIES SUICIDE is given a pass. I can sympathize with the freak-out and have no quarrel with calming that being the main point of any reply. But, as Ms Cute pointed out, an opportunity went begging. It would have cost nothing to append, "And when you've calmed down about this, you might want to stop thinking gay people should all kill themselves," or something to that effect. As someone who (I'm sure you'll all agree, unfortunately so) failed miserably at suicide, I can say with some force that this is the sort of omission that can stick in one's subconscious.
Oh, and my thanks to those with more experience than I've had who took up the mantle of questioning gayest act possible on the merits. I thought that one just might end up marooned on an island.
And it's not that I think the LW is all that homophobic NOW. As Ms Cute picked up, he seems potentially headed in that direction if his idea that HOMOSEXUALITY JUSTIFIES SUICIDE is given a pass. I can sympathize with the freak-out and have no quarrel with calming that being the main point of any reply. But, as Ms Cute pointed out, an opportunity went begging. It would have cost nothing to append, "And when you've calmed down about this, you might want to stop thinking gay people should all kill themselves," or something to that effect. As someone who (I'm sure you'll all agree, unfortunately so) failed miserably at suicide, I can say with some force that this is the sort of omission that can stick in one's subconscious.
Oh, and my thanks to those with more experience than I've had who took up the mantle of questioning gayest act possible on the merits. I thought that one just might end up marooned on an island.
77
@67 I'd put making out with a dude even higher than giving a blow job on the gay-o-meter. As a hetero-man nothing seems further from my desires than french kissing a stubble face or (shudder) a mustache/beard.
The letter writer really does need to 'walk it off'. Just think of it as being pegged by your trans-girl who just so happens to have a high-quality strap-on.
The letter writer really does need to 'walk it off'. Just think of it as being pegged by your trans-girl who just so happens to have a high-quality strap-on.
75
@72, hmm, the site I posted seems a bit dodgy, and more than a bit anti-porn. Lots of people boasting of how long they've gone without masturbating. Never mind, probably not worth discussing their crap.
73
In your great response to TRIOS, you noted that, "discussions of throupledom all seem to begin with the assumption that coupledom is a self-evidently more stable arrangement." It is obvious to me, and I hope it is to many others, that a structure with three legs will ALWAYS be more stable than a structure with only two legs, which has to lean against something else in order to stand. (Think of the difference between a three-legged stool and a ladder.)
72
Just stumbled on this:
http://yourbrainonporn.com/can-you-trust…
>> Psychiatrist Norman Doidge explained: The content of what [patients] found exciting changed as the Web sites introduced themes and scripts that altered their brains without their awareness. Because plasticity is competitive, the brain maps for new, exciting images increased at the expense of what had previously attracted them.>>
>>Do a viewer's most recent porn tastes reveal his "deepest urges and most uninhibited thoughts," as Ogas and Gaddam claim?...Or does cyberporn manufacture superficial tastes, sometimes unrelated to sexual orientation?>>
>>When his current cyberporn genre doesn't arouse him, does he think, "Oh, that's a sign that my brain needs a time-out to return to normal sensitivity. Why don't I lay off the porn?" No...He clicks around the Web until he hits something that engorges his penis...After his fourth session of the day, he needs an added jolt of shock or anxiety to goose his dopamine and light a fire under his brain's sluggish reward circuitry.>>
Thoughts?
http://yourbrainonporn.com/can-you-trust…
>> Psychiatrist Norman Doidge explained: The content of what [patients] found exciting changed as the Web sites introduced themes and scripts that altered their brains without their awareness. Because plasticity is competitive, the brain maps for new, exciting images increased at the expense of what had previously attracted them.>>
>>Do a viewer's most recent porn tastes reveal his "deepest urges and most uninhibited thoughts," as Ogas and Gaddam claim?...Or does cyberporn manufacture superficial tastes, sometimes unrelated to sexual orientation?>>
>>When his current cyberporn genre doesn't arouse him, does he think, "Oh, that's a sign that my brain needs a time-out to return to normal sensitivity. Why don't I lay off the porn?" No...He clicks around the Web until he hits something that engorges his penis...After his fourth session of the day, he needs an added jolt of shock or anxiety to goose his dopamine and light a fire under his brain's sluggish reward circuitry.>>
Thoughts?
71
I've been in a 3 person relationship for about 2 years now, 1 year since we've all lived together. (2 bi women, 1 man)
This is the FIRST time I've ever heard of the term "throuple", as we've always referred to our relationship as a "triad."
I guess the terms could be interchangeable, but your term is new to me. *shrug*
This is the FIRST time I've ever heard of the term "throuple", as we've always referred to our relationship as a "triad."
I guess the terms could be interchangeable, but your term is new to me. *shrug*
70
@66, "cisgender" came into being after people started using "transgender" and then realized that they didn't want to call everybody else just "normal", because that implies that transgendered people aren't normal. But your understanding of the term is right: pretty much everyone who isn't transgendered is cisgendered.*
*Probably best not to try to decide whether the intersexed or gender-queer are trans or cis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer
*Probably best not to try to decide whether the intersexed or gender-queer are trans or cis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer
69
@68 - I agree - I read in a book once where a "straight" character can't believe he's "committed the most homo of all sexual acts."
68
@24: If snorkeling is a euphemism, then what exactly is 'snorkeling in Mexico'? And would that make me gay?
I think I'm going to stick to hiking the Appalachian Trail.
I think I'm going to stick to hiking the Appalachian Trail.
67
Bottoming isn't anywhere near "the Gayest thing you can do". It can be totally passive and WSOSW's semi conscious state made it all the more so. No, the Gayest thing you can do is to suck a dick. It's totally active, it cannot happen by accident and even a decent amount of inebriation can mask the fact that a dick is in your mouth. I'd almost also put kissing another guy ahead of bottoming for its semi active level.
66
@63 - ok, so have never seen cisgender as a term - looked it up - says "cisgender and cissexual are two related types of gender identity where an individual's self-perception of their gender matches their sex." What? If my self perception of my gender - female - matches my sex - um...I have a vagina - then...what the heck does that mean? Seems like there are terms on top of terms - how on earch do you people (and by you people I mean Savage readers) keep up? I think Dan should publish an online glossery for readers of his column!
65
I want to second @3 - very nice point. Until we stop equating gay==feminine==weaker/inferior the bi-play double standard will persist. And it will drive curious guys to go for "chix w/ dix" rather than than some jock, hairy bear or muscle boy.
And I think @25 is probably right - gay friends tell me that it's not uncommon for super-horned up 'straights' to get really drunk, "experiment" and then have a bad 'gay sex hangover' - which is kind of what WSOWS had.
And I think @25 is probably right - gay friends tell me that it's not uncommon for super-horned up 'straights' to get really drunk, "experiment" and then have a bad 'gay sex hangover' - which is kind of what WSOWS had.
64
@slinky: After it was over, I had a good week or so of, WTF?
Yeah, I think anyone who's had a sexual experience that felt not quite right or kind of icky can relate to that. It can take some time to shake it off and sort it out, especially if you're young.
Yeah, I think anyone who's had a sexual experience that felt not quite right or kind of icky can relate to that. It can take some time to shake it off and sort it out, especially if you're young.
63
@41: A gay sex worker friend of mine insists that the main customers of trans sex workers are gay men in denial.
Interesting anecdote, but really, how would your friend or the trans sex workers he mentions know the "true" sexuality that allegedly lurks in a client's subconscious?
I've never heard of a formerly closeted gay man who started out with trans as a stepping stone to cisgendered men. Maybe someone else has? The typical route seems to involve fucking cisgendered men in bathrooms, parks, and rest stops, or just giving up and marrying Michelle Bachmann. But again, maybe someone else has some confirmed sightings that would correct my misimpressions.
The view that an attraction to trans is a mid-way point to somewhere else is certainly interesting, the implication being that it couldn't possibly be the final destination.
Interesting anecdote, but really, how would your friend or the trans sex workers he mentions know the "true" sexuality that allegedly lurks in a client's subconscious?
I've never heard of a formerly closeted gay man who started out with trans as a stepping stone to cisgendered men. Maybe someone else has? The typical route seems to involve fucking cisgendered men in bathrooms, parks, and rest stops, or just giving up and marrying Michelle Bachmann. But again, maybe someone else has some confirmed sightings that would correct my misimpressions.
The view that an attraction to trans is a mid-way point to somewhere else is certainly interesting, the implication being that it couldn't possibly be the final destination.
62
I agree with @22 that penis between butt cheeks is called an Italian. It is just one of many "national" terms for sex acts, including Russian (penis between breasts), French (blowjob), English (spanking), Thai (massage with release), and of course Greek (anal).
61
@56 - thanks for the explanation - certainly helped.
@58 - believe it or not, I did google before posting - I guess in my mind I was confusing transsexual with drag queen (according to wiki, drag queens are often gay men who dress like women, which is what I assumed the above letter writer was talking about). Honestly, there are so many terms, sub catagories, etc. that even trying to follow the info in the link you provided can make your head swim!
@58 - believe it or not, I did google before posting - I guess in my mind I was confusing transsexual with drag queen (according to wiki, drag queens are often gay men who dress like women, which is what I assumed the above letter writer was talking about). Honestly, there are so many terms, sub catagories, etc. that even trying to follow the info in the link you provided can make your head swim!
60
wow.. everything just seems so complicated over there heteroville and gaytown..
i'm just gonna go watch some girls with strap-ons assfuck each other and fantasize about stubble burn on my face and lady bits and the tastes of dick, pussy and ass.
oh morgana, i need to get laid!
i'm just gonna go watch some girls with strap-ons assfuck each other and fantasize about stubble burn on my face and lady bits and the tastes of dick, pussy and ass.
oh morgana, i need to get laid!
59
Dan's advice to the lad in a gay panic was fantastic. The joke about the second gayest thing was both funny and in some cases true. But most importantly, its intent, along with the bulk of the response, was to defuse the hysteria in the silly guy's letter. I like the idea of having him find a chick to peg him and then go from there. But I like even more the idea of him finding a nice T-girl to settle down with. That is probably the toughest part about being a transwoman, you spend so much time weeding through the kinksters who see you as a "walk on the wild side" instead of a potential LTR.
58
@55 here, let me help you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
though at this point I would think most people know how to google...
though at this point I would think most people know how to google...
57
WSOWS, as a straight guy into pegging and trans-porn, I can assure you it's possible to be into these things and not be gay. I've never had sex with a transexual like you did, but I do like to be fucked in the ass with a strap on and regularly watch trans-porn and I am straight. I've never dated or had sex with a man, nor wanted to. Men just don't arouse me.
Why do I, a straight man, enjoy being anally penetrated and watching trans-porn? First, having stuff in my butt just feels good - it makes whatever else is happening feel that much better. Second, the idea of being the object that "gets fucked", instead of the person doing the fucking, is hot to me. I like the dynamic of that power switch, of becoming the one that gets penetrated. The turn on isn't the dick, it's the getting fucked part. When I'm getting fucked with a strap on it's not a substitute for a man fucking me with a dick, it's the fulfillment of my true fantasy - Getting fucked by a woman.
I'm glad I didn't discover my "kink" at age 21, like you, long before I'd started reading Dan Savage, because I probably would have been as freaked out as you, worrying if liking things in my butt "made me gay". Luckily for me, I didn't discover my taste for anal penetration until late in my 20's after I'd been reading Dan Savage for several years (In fact, I discovered it because a SL question about pegging really turned me on ). Discovering the "kink" at that time, as an educated DS reader and with several years of evidence that I was straight, allowed me to just embrace and enjoy my "kink" without having to worry about "what it means".
My advice to you, WSOWS, is to stop worrying about being gay (and make sure your fear isn't stemming from homophobia) and try some pegging. If you liked getting fucked by a trans sex worker, I'm guessing you'll go nuts for getting fucked by a girlfriend you love wearing a strap on.
More...
Why do I, a straight man, enjoy being anally penetrated and watching trans-porn? First, having stuff in my butt just feels good - it makes whatever else is happening feel that much better. Second, the idea of being the object that "gets fucked", instead of the person doing the fucking, is hot to me. I like the dynamic of that power switch, of becoming the one that gets penetrated. The turn on isn't the dick, it's the getting fucked part. When I'm getting fucked with a strap on it's not a substitute for a man fucking me with a dick, it's the fulfillment of my true fantasy - Getting fucked by a woman.
I'm glad I didn't discover my "kink" at age 21, like you, long before I'd started reading Dan Savage, because I probably would have been as freaked out as you, worrying if liking things in my butt "made me gay". Luckily for me, I didn't discover my taste for anal penetration until late in my 20's after I'd been reading Dan Savage for several years (In fact, I discovered it because a SL question about pegging really turned me on ). Discovering the "kink" at that time, as an educated DS reader and with several years of evidence that I was straight, allowed me to just embrace and enjoy my "kink" without having to worry about "what it means".
My advice to you, WSOWS, is to stop worrying about being gay (and make sure your fear isn't stemming from homophobia) and try some pegging. If you liked getting fucked by a trans sex worker, I'm guessing you'll go nuts for getting fucked by a girlfriend you love wearing a strap on.
56
@55
The letter is talking about someone who is transgendered. Someone who was born with male genitalia but identifies as female. Typically on estrogen therapy and often has had some surgery, ie breast implants (though for some people estrogen will create enough breast to not need surgery) or facial reconstruction to appear more conventionally feminine. A lot of transgendered people opt not to have full sex reassignment because of the issues involved with having their genitals reconstructed. These people are women, though they have male genitals (or men who have female genitalia if we're talking FTM). While some people who transition are attracted to members of the sex they are transitioning to, often they identify as straight, which means that a transgendered woman (a woman who had/still has a penis)will be attracted to men.
The letter is talking about someone who is transgendered. Someone who was born with male genitalia but identifies as female. Typically on estrogen therapy and often has had some surgery, ie breast implants (though for some people estrogen will create enough breast to not need surgery) or facial reconstruction to appear more conventionally feminine. A lot of transgendered people opt not to have full sex reassignment because of the issues involved with having their genitals reconstructed. These people are women, though they have male genitals (or men who have female genitalia if we're talking FTM). While some people who transition are attracted to members of the sex they are transitioning to, often they identify as straight, which means that a transgendered woman (a woman who had/still has a penis)will be attracted to men.
55
"Wanting to be with a woman who has a dick is an almost exclusively straight male kink/obsession/wild side." Ok, please don't yell at me - but I'm a bit confused. I thought -obviously erroneously - that a trans as described in the letter above was a gay guy who liked to dress as a woman (as seen in clubs in Vegas - or Chandler's dad on Friends, etc.) - but unlike transvestites (who I thought were usually straight), they were gay - and had male lovers who wanted to be with these men-who look-like-women. But then Dan says it's usually (?) straight guys who want to be with the men-who-look-like-women (and you can call him? her? a chick with a dick - but unless they've had the surgery legally that is a guy, not a woman with a dick - or am I getting that wrong too?). Usually I get what the letter writer is talking about in this column, but I must admit (from my middle age straight suburban housewife w/no contact w/anyone outside of monogamous straight couples - no one I know (that I know of!) is gay or into bdsm or kink or anything interesting in the ever changing world of sexualilty!)perspective, I'm confused.
54
WSOS - what you do with another man/woman's dick doesn't make you gay... it's what you do with your heart that makes you gay...
53
@41 "A gay sex worker friend of mine insists that the main customers of trans sex workers are gay men in denial."
If they were really gay, wouldn't they get around to calling gay sex workers pretty quickly? This is a sex-for-hire, it's a pretty discreet situation.
These customers fetishize both tits and dick. More power to them. If they also like pussy, like WSOWS, it doesn't make sense to call them gay.
If they were really gay, wouldn't they get around to calling gay sex workers pretty quickly? This is a sex-for-hire, it's a pretty discreet situation.
These customers fetishize both tits and dick. More power to them. If they also like pussy, like WSOWS, it doesn't make sense to call them gay.
52
@47 - forgot to mention you in my last comment but I was similarly impressed and thought he phrased that very well too :)
51
@49 - I didn't say they didn't exist. I said there doesn't appear to be a majority either way. And by the way, there are plenty of lesbian transwomen who would like to be able to come out and be accepted and admired for who they are by other lesbians. It is the unfortunate reality that they are often marginalized no matter what.
49
@40 I am speaking from experience as my sister is MtF trans and I have been a part of her circle of friends and various internet communities for years. There are a lot of straight trans women out there who would love to be able to date a man who they could "come out" to and be accepted and "admired", the term for men like this, my sister included.
48
I don't think that WSOWS' reaction was necessarily homophobic, though I can understand why it would seem that way. I think that most people who are "100% certain" of their sexuality, then engage in something that seems to oppose what they know about their sexuality would freak out a bit. I've heard of plenty of people who came out when they were 13, then at 20 something wanted to try something with the opposite sex and freak the fuck out because, "OMG, was I straight this whole time?"
When something this significant occurs, especially when you did not have complete control of your faculties to determine if you wanted to participate or not, it's likely to make you seriously question things. Assuring him that he is, in fact, straight is not conceding that straight is better, it's confirming that one act doesn't completely dissolve the sexuality you knew you had.
When something this significant occurs, especially when you did not have complete control of your faculties to determine if you wanted to participate or not, it's likely to make you seriously question things. Assuring him that he is, in fact, straight is not conceding that straight is better, it's confirming that one act doesn't completely dissolve the sexuality you knew you had.
47
I'm just really pleased with how much Dan has clearly thought about and rethought his discussion of trans people. The answer to WSOWS-- "You made an exception for this woman's dick because her dick is exceptional: It's attached to a woman,"-- was, IMO, excellently trans-supportive, helpful, and, best of all, accurate. This does not sound like what he would have written fifteen years ago, which might have made the same point, but would probably have done so in a way that really hurt people and made them feel excluded and unwelcome. I like how this answer has his classic snark ("You're now doing the second-gayest thing a guy can do. You're being a huge drama queen about the whole thing.") without any unintended bashing. Go, Dan!
46
It might help WSOWS to feel better if he realizes there are many straight men, including about 300 on seancody.com, who have boatloads of gay sex and are still straight.
Well, they claim they are, anyway...
Well, they claim they are, anyway...
44
"Throuple"? Never heard that before and would be just as happy never hearing it again. What a hideous word. I've heard "triad" and "trio" and "threesome" used; any of those seems vastly superior.
Is "throuple" a Seattle thing?
Is "throuple" a Seattle thing?
42
As stupid as this WSOWS is and I'll get to his somewhat ignorant comments, I'll have to say...
Kudos Dan for understanding where he was coming from, even if it might have had homophobic undertones (which I doubt he has to begin with).
WHAT THE FUCK DID Y'ALL EXPECT! He's a 21 year old straight dude, who had his first gay/bisexual/transsexual experience and he didn't know what to make of it. Of course he's gonna be like "oh my god I must be gay!". He doesnt know shit because society taught him not to understand. This is the homophobic society we live in. You think this is the first dude this has happened to? Please, this is so PC.
He didn't go to the evangelicals, he didn't go to pray the gay away, he went to Dan Savage, a gay advice columnist.
This is exactly the reaction you'd expect from a straight kid, especially after doing something like this. doesnt mean he's homophobic, he's just confused and slightly ignorant, but he'll definitely learn from this experience.
That being said, he deserves a solid punch in the face from a gay man, and then to be taken out for a beer and talked to about what it truly means to be gay, why it isn't a bad thing at all, and that it doesn't just boil down to one experience or fifty. Its something way deeper. As dumb as WSOWS is, Dan said the right things.
Kudos Dan for understanding where he was coming from, even if it might have had homophobic undertones (which I doubt he has to begin with).
WHAT THE FUCK DID Y'ALL EXPECT! He's a 21 year old straight dude, who had his first gay/bisexual/transsexual experience and he didn't know what to make of it. Of course he's gonna be like "oh my god I must be gay!". He doesnt know shit because society taught him not to understand. This is the homophobic society we live in. You think this is the first dude this has happened to? Please, this is so PC.
He didn't go to the evangelicals, he didn't go to pray the gay away, he went to Dan Savage, a gay advice columnist.
This is exactly the reaction you'd expect from a straight kid, especially after doing something like this. doesnt mean he's homophobic, he's just confused and slightly ignorant, but he'll definitely learn from this experience.
That being said, he deserves a solid punch in the face from a gay man, and then to be taken out for a beer and talked to about what it truly means to be gay, why it isn't a bad thing at all, and that it doesn't just boil down to one experience or fifty. Its something way deeper. As dumb as WSOWS is, Dan said the right things.
41
I'm not sure that I agree with Dan about the first LW. I once got high with a straight couple who were friends of mine, and after the wife went to bed, I ended up making out with the guy. I had always found him attractive, but I would never have done anything about it if I had been sober. Second scenario, I once got high with a male flatmate and he came on to me pretty strong. I had never found him attractive, so despite being completely fucked up, I had no problem shoving him off me and saying no.
Bottom line: drinking and drugs definitely lower your inhibitions, but in my experience, they do not change who you're attracted to or make you want to do things that you don't ordinarily want to do. The LW admits to liking trans porn, so it's not like this was a one-off situation. It seems to me that he's protesting way too much about being straight ("I like chicks! Really, I do!"). A gay sex worker friend of mine insists that the main customers of trans sex workers are gay men in denial. If this guy is so sure that he's straight, then why write to Dan looking for reassurance?
Bottom line: drinking and drugs definitely lower your inhibitions, but in my experience, they do not change who you're attracted to or make you want to do things that you don't ordinarily want to do. The LW admits to liking trans porn, so it's not like this was a one-off situation. It seems to me that he's protesting way too much about being straight ("I like chicks! Really, I do!"). A gay sex worker friend of mine insists that the main customers of trans sex workers are gay men in denial. If this guy is so sure that he's straight, then why write to Dan looking for reassurance?
40
@24 - snorkling should totally be a euphemism. Let's make it happen, yo.
@32 - Most transsexual/transgender women are straight? Really? Actually, some are and some aren't. And most of the ones I know aren't. Including the one I'm dating. Please remember that sexuality and gender are two very separate things.
Otherwise, throuple? Yeah, I had a problem with that too. I've only ever heard triad.
Finally, I agree with whoever suggested that the first LW get pegged - I know plenty of straight men who enjoy it and are secure enough to not question their sexuality because of it.
@32 - Most transsexual/transgender women are straight? Really? Actually, some are and some aren't. And most of the ones I know aren't. Including the one I'm dating. Please remember that sexuality and gender are two very separate things.
Otherwise, throuple? Yeah, I had a problem with that too. I've only ever heard triad.
Finally, I agree with whoever suggested that the first LW get pegged - I know plenty of straight men who enjoy it and are secure enough to not question their sexuality because of it.
39
@nocutename and venomminion, Seandr nailed it. I did think about the homophobia packed in his question. I addressed it the way I did (not gay, problem has nothing to do with gay, move on) because the LW specifically asked whether or not he was gay.
Once I answered it with, you want to fuck chicks, shout it from the rooftops, it was time to move on to the REAL problem, which was that he felt sexually violated.
I actually have had a similar situation myself. A few years ago, I had a rather memorable evening with a pair of friends, in which there was far too much booze, and my first experience topping a girl. The third friend watched and gave himself a hand. While it was going on, I felt like it was a combination of business (I started this, I'm gonna give her a good time come hell or high water), physically squicky (nowhere near into her as she was into me), and emotionally squicky (person #3 was in a partnership with somebody else, and while he was just watching from the sidelines, his partner didn't know/hadn't given permission).
After it was over, I had a good week or so of, WTF? Including, yes, wondering if I were a lesbian, and then the holy crap that's homophobic god I'm such a cow, and a whole other mess of emotions I couldn't really put words to. Once I had had time to process it, what I learned about myself is that I like watching BDSM porn but don't like being an active participant (on either end, scary as fuck), I like to watch women fucking but don't want to fuck or date them myself (IOW, kinky, not a lesbian), and that despite all of that, I pushed myself past my normal boundaries and lived to tell the tale.
The difference between me in my little story and WSOWS is preplanned consent. I went into the night knowing full well what was going to happen, and drank some liquid courage and coca-cola specifically so that I COULD tie up my friend and top her. We were consenting all the way through. WSOWS, on the other hand, got fucked up first, THEN called the sex worker, and in his intoxicated state did not set boundaries or think about what he would be doing. He wasn't in a mental state to be making those decisions, things went too far, and now, in the morning, he's regretting it.
IMO, the reason "Am I gay?" popped up with both of us, is that we neither one of us had the life experience to be able to tease apart the complicated emotions we were dealing with, and so we defaulted to the lowest of the low common denominators. Even though the real problem lay somewhere else. WSOWS is 21, and this was his first experience in this type of situation. I bet you dollars to donuts he just doesn't have the range of life experiences that he would need to be able to tease out the emotions he's feeling yet, so "anger and shame at sexual violation" is being lumped into ZOMGTEHGHEY.
What I really hope he learns from this, once he's calmed down and maybe spoken to a counsellor, is to respect the sexual boundaries' of others, and become more aware of rape culture.
More...
Once I answered it with, you want to fuck chicks, shout it from the rooftops, it was time to move on to the REAL problem, which was that he felt sexually violated.
I actually have had a similar situation myself. A few years ago, I had a rather memorable evening with a pair of friends, in which there was far too much booze, and my first experience topping a girl. The third friend watched and gave himself a hand. While it was going on, I felt like it was a combination of business (I started this, I'm gonna give her a good time come hell or high water), physically squicky (nowhere near into her as she was into me), and emotionally squicky (person #3 was in a partnership with somebody else, and while he was just watching from the sidelines, his partner didn't know/hadn't given permission).
After it was over, I had a good week or so of, WTF? Including, yes, wondering if I were a lesbian, and then the holy crap that's homophobic god I'm such a cow, and a whole other mess of emotions I couldn't really put words to. Once I had had time to process it, what I learned about myself is that I like watching BDSM porn but don't like being an active participant (on either end, scary as fuck), I like to watch women fucking but don't want to fuck or date them myself (IOW, kinky, not a lesbian), and that despite all of that, I pushed myself past my normal boundaries and lived to tell the tale.
The difference between me in my little story and WSOWS is preplanned consent. I went into the night knowing full well what was going to happen, and drank some liquid courage and coca-cola specifically so that I COULD tie up my friend and top her. We were consenting all the way through. WSOWS, on the other hand, got fucked up first, THEN called the sex worker, and in his intoxicated state did not set boundaries or think about what he would be doing. He wasn't in a mental state to be making those decisions, things went too far, and now, in the morning, he's regretting it.
IMO, the reason "Am I gay?" popped up with both of us, is that we neither one of us had the life experience to be able to tease apart the complicated emotions we were dealing with, and so we defaulted to the lowest of the low common denominators. Even though the real problem lay somewhere else. WSOWS is 21, and this was his first experience in this type of situation. I bet you dollars to donuts he just doesn't have the range of life experiences that he would need to be able to tease out the emotions he's feeling yet, so "anger and shame at sexual violation" is being lumped into ZOMGTEHGHEY.
What I really hope he learns from this, once he's calmed down and maybe spoken to a counsellor, is to respect the sexual boundaries' of others, and become more aware of rape culture.
38
Dan... your answer to WOWS is horribly offensive.
"now you're doing the second-gayest thing a guy can do. You're being a huge drama queen about the whole thing."
Are you F*CKING kidding me with this effeminophobic, essentializing, b*llsh*t? I guess it was in service of a joke, which means it's totally fine...how can the creator of "It's Get Better" not be critical about attaching negative attributes to the gay label? In case this comes as a surprise to you Dan, gay people are bullied much more for being gender atypical than they are for who they fuck. And you essentially just said "dude, stop being so gay"...REALLY? REALLY?!
"Be a man about this—be a straight man about this—and walk it off, as the football coaches say"
oh look, more gender b*llshit. Thanks Dan!
Oh yeah, and having sex with transwomen is not an "exclusively straight male kink"...because TRANSPEOPLE ARE HUMAN BEINGS WHO MANY OTHER HUMAN BEINGS ENJOY DATING AND HAVING SEX WITH. Of varying identities...some people sleep with transpeople, cispeople and everyone in between. some people only date transpeople. How they negotiate this on the identity level varies from person to person...but it surely isn't predominantly a "straight male thing" unless what you meant by that was the straight male tendency to see anything sexual and somehow relate it back to them. In which case, yeah I guess it falls under that category.
That is all.
"now you're doing the second-gayest thing a guy can do. You're being a huge drama queen about the whole thing."
Are you F*CKING kidding me with this effeminophobic, essentializing, b*llsh*t? I guess it was in service of a joke, which means it's totally fine...how can the creator of "It's Get Better" not be critical about attaching negative attributes to the gay label? In case this comes as a surprise to you Dan, gay people are bullied much more for being gender atypical than they are for who they fuck. And you essentially just said "dude, stop being so gay"...REALLY? REALLY?!
"Be a man about this—be a straight man about this—and walk it off, as the football coaches say"
oh look, more gender b*llshit. Thanks Dan!
Oh yeah, and having sex with transwomen is not an "exclusively straight male kink"...because TRANSPEOPLE ARE HUMAN BEINGS WHO MANY OTHER HUMAN BEINGS ENJOY DATING AND HAVING SEX WITH. Of varying identities...some people sleep with transpeople, cispeople and everyone in between. some people only date transpeople. How they negotiate this on the identity level varies from person to person...but it surely isn't predominantly a "straight male thing" unless what you meant by that was the straight male tendency to see anything sexual and somehow relate it back to them. In which case, yeah I guess it falls under that category.
That is all.
37
Dr Sean - The last two paragraphs (minus the opening sentence of the penultimate one) or maybe the last three would have been a perfectly satisfactory answer on their own.
I could dispute the "gayest thing a man can do" (ugh! horrible phrasing) on the merits, as I can think of several things that seem at least somewhat more so. However, given that I have retired from active practice and Mr Savage has so much more experience than I do, I am prepared on that point to bow to his superiour expertise.
There is a difference between jumping on the LW for being homophobic and what I think Ms Cute would have done - pointing out to him gently that his letter indicates some attitudes that he might not want to allow to get out of hand.
Ms Cute's problem was what was left out of the answer, and mine was what was included. One of the egregious anti-gay comments could have been passed off as possible humour, perhaps the equivalent of one of Mr Savage's incomprehensibly admired Prudie's bad puns. Including two is the sort of thing that forms a reason for why the heterocentrists think they can appropriate Mr Savage and use him to uphold their Straight-Is-Just-That-Little-Bit-BETTER World Order.
(And I say this in spite of the fact that any, "Be a man!" advice always reminds me of Claude Erskine Brown telling Phyllida exactly that when Rumpole has been their house guest for a bit too long and Hilda shows no signs of wanting him back.)
To imagine a similar case, I find it hard to believe that Mr Savage would so coddle a gay LW writing in in a similar panic after making out with someone he took to be a cute guy at a party only to be surprised when they adjourned for privacy. Sorry not to devise a better parallel, but I'm in a hurry.
More...
I could dispute the "gayest thing a man can do" (ugh! horrible phrasing) on the merits, as I can think of several things that seem at least somewhat more so. However, given that I have retired from active practice and Mr Savage has so much more experience than I do, I am prepared on that point to bow to his superiour expertise.
There is a difference between jumping on the LW for being homophobic and what I think Ms Cute would have done - pointing out to him gently that his letter indicates some attitudes that he might not want to allow to get out of hand.
Ms Cute's problem was what was left out of the answer, and mine was what was included. One of the egregious anti-gay comments could have been passed off as possible humour, perhaps the equivalent of one of Mr Savage's incomprehensibly admired Prudie's bad puns. Including two is the sort of thing that forms a reason for why the heterocentrists think they can appropriate Mr Savage and use him to uphold their Straight-Is-Just-That-Little-Bit-BETTER World Order.
(And I say this in spite of the fact that any, "Be a man!" advice always reminds me of Claude Erskine Brown telling Phyllida exactly that when Rumpole has been their house guest for a bit too long and Hilda shows no signs of wanting him back.)
To imagine a similar case, I find it hard to believe that Mr Savage would so coddle a gay LW writing in in a similar panic after making out with someone he took to be a cute guy at a party only to be surprised when they adjourned for privacy. Sorry not to devise a better parallel, but I'm in a hurry.
36
Anyone who can seriously write, "sticking her thing in my butt" instead of using adult words does not have the maturity to be having sex with anyone other than themselves.
32
I think something a lot of straight guys are going to have to accept is that anal sex feels good. If you're really into it, transexual women are a great match, since most are straight and would love to be in a real realationship where their partner is not only accepting, but attracted to who they are. Otherwise, butt plugs are great, too.
30
I don't think 'throuple' is going to catch on as a sexual neologism. It badly fails the roll-off-the-tongue test.
And while I favor research, in principle, it seems to me nearly self-evident that the more variables introduced (and a third partner is a major variable), the greater the chance a relationship won't "last."
More interesting would be research into whether "lasting (until death-do-us-part)" should be the default definition of a "successful relationship".
And while I favor research, in principle, it seems to me nearly self-evident that the more variables introduced (and a third partner is a major variable), the greater the chance a relationship won't "last."
More interesting would be research into whether "lasting (until death-do-us-part)" should be the default definition of a "successful relationship".
29
@nocutename: I would have said, "so what if you're gay"
Ok, but LW's question was "am I gay?". You're response doesn't answer that question, or any question other that "what would @nocutename have said", which no one asked.
I agree with Dan - I don't think LW is gay. Gay guys are interested in men, not women. I also wouldn't call LW flexible, either, because he hasn't said anything to suggest he's interested in men.
I think he's more like a straight guy with a dick "kink" (for lack of a better term). Not all that crazy as far as kinks go, and not especially uncommon if porn supply is a fair indicator of demand. But guys who like women with dicks aren't in the closet - they are what they are.
As for his depressed emotional state, well, he was penetrated, for his first time, without really wanting to be. From what I understand, that can be traumatic. It's cold blooded to be jumping all over this poor kid as homophobic when's he's trying to sort through what happened to him and what it means.
Ok, but LW's question was "am I gay?". You're response doesn't answer that question, or any question other that "what would @nocutename have said", which no one asked.
I agree with Dan - I don't think LW is gay. Gay guys are interested in men, not women. I also wouldn't call LW flexible, either, because he hasn't said anything to suggest he's interested in men.
I think he's more like a straight guy with a dick "kink" (for lack of a better term). Not all that crazy as far as kinks go, and not especially uncommon if porn supply is a fair indicator of demand. But guys who like women with dicks aren't in the closet - they are what they are.
As for his depressed emotional state, well, he was penetrated, for his first time, without really wanting to be. From what I understand, that can be traumatic. It's cold blooded to be jumping all over this poor kid as homophobic when's he's trying to sort through what happened to him and what it means.
28
I think of the first writer more like @12. WSOWS got fucked up on drugs, went too far -or let the sex worker go too far- and feels icky for it. And he wrote in because he doesn't know exactly why he feels so bad.
Maybe. I don't know. I just know the only times I ever went past my comfort zones was when I was intoxicated and/or high. Note: I don't think the sex worker took advantage of the situation, since she seemed to operate in good faith and used condoms. Maybe next time don't do the drugs*, and negotiate in advance what you're going to do.
*Please believe me that I'm pretty libertarian (not Libertarian) about drug use, just not when in emotionally vulnerable or physically dangerous situations.
Maybe. I don't know. I just know the only times I ever went past my comfort zones was when I was intoxicated and/or high. Note: I don't think the sex worker took advantage of the situation, since she seemed to operate in good faith and used condoms. Maybe next time don't do the drugs*, and negotiate in advance what you're going to do.
*Please believe me that I'm pretty libertarian (not Libertarian) about drug use, just not when in emotionally vulnerable or physically dangerous situations.
27
re @26: I'm not being PC here; I honestly do appreciate constructive feedback on using terminology correctly (i.e.: I served in the U.S. Navy, not the U.S. Naval). So again, migrationist, thanks.
I also suck at pronunciations, unfortunately. It must be the Bugs Bunny influence I had as a child, growing up watching Saturday morning cartoons.
I also suck at pronunciations, unfortunately. It must be the Bugs Bunny influence I had as a child, growing up watching Saturday morning cartoons.
26
@21: Oh, shit--not again! I meant masseur, not masseuse.
Thank you for noting the correction and calling me on it.
@23: LOL!! With or without Grey Poupon?
Thank you for noting the correction and calling me on it.
@23: LOL!! With or without Grey Poupon?
25
@1 & first two paragraphs of @15: relax already, smoke a joint or something, will ya? Not everything has to be about your rights being violated. This kid's just weirded out about a sex, drugs, and booze-fueled experience he'd never had before. Sheesh.
24
"I recently spent a lovely day snorkeling with my wife in Mexico."
1) Did your wife in America know?
2) Please tell me snorkeling is a euphemism. I intend to use this phrase regularly from now on.
1) Did your wife in America know?
2) Please tell me snorkeling is a euphemism. I intend to use this phrase regularly from now on.
22
With respect to Saddlebacking and the Cardinal George, I believe this activity is also referred to as "Italian". The idea being that Italy is near Greece, but not quite the same thing.
21
@19:
I assume you mean a masseur? Otherwise there wouldn't be any grounds for him being gay surely.
I assume you mean a masseur? Otherwise there wouldn't be any grounds for him being gay surely.
20
Ms Cute - I'm not in Militant Mode; call it the Heterocentrics who think that Mr Savage agrees with them that straight is just that teensy bit - oh, don't make them say it, but they will - better.
It's sort of a dual misunderstanding. They think that Mr Savage will really help them uphold their world order, and he thinks they've really accepted the rest of us. It's as if this were QAF and he thinks he's being Brian while they think he's being Emmett.
It's sort of a dual misunderstanding. They think that Mr Savage will really help them uphold their world order, and he thinks they've really accepted the rest of us. It's as if this were QAF and he thinks he's being Brian while they think he's being Emmett.
19
WSOWS's letter sounds a lot like the one from a long time ago about the "200% Straight Guy", married with children, who had started going to see a masseuse--not for the massage, but for the anticipated weekly blowjob afterwards, and suddenly he's afraid this might identify him as gay.
This one gets my vote for 'HTH" of 2013.
This one gets my vote for 'HTH" of 2013.
18
@17: Yes, this is what really irked me. Not that Dan's been accepted as One of Them if by "Them," you mean straight people; but one of "Them" homophobes or homofobic allies.
17
With all due respect, I think the first answer was unnecessary homophobic, even if one started from the point that the LW ought to be coddled and encouraged to feel better. The second letter came across as a bit too open in its tourism, but received the benefit of advantageous placement.
I suppose, though, it's a huge victory for Mr Savage when straight people can write in to him claiming that homosexuality is practically a justification for suicide while all the time looking to him expectantly for assistance. He's been accepted as One of Them. I shall credit him with thinking that this means the rest of us are accepted as well, but he's wrong.
I suppose, though, it's a huge victory for Mr Savage when straight people can write in to him claiming that homosexuality is practically a justification for suicide while all the time looking to him expectantly for assistance. He's been accepted as One of Them. I shall credit him with thinking that this means the rest of us are accepted as well, but he's wrong.
16
"Throuple" makes me think of "tribble", and now I'm picturing all these fuzzy cute men in triads.
15
@12: Excellent advice regarding boundaries and their respect and violation, and no doubt WSOWS should take it all to heart, slinky, but I was really bothered by all the hand-wringing (I might have to kill myself if I turn out to be gay) that seemed to have had little to do with a feeling of being violated and a lot to do with the horrible fear that this act has "turned" him gay.
All the reassurances that both you and Dan are giving subtly reinforce his homophobia: "don't worry, sweetie, you're still straight" implies that being straight is preferable to being gay. Now, I realize that both you and Dan couched your respective advice in those terms deliberately, and there is more than a touch of irony in both your tones, and that perhaps both of you felt that it was more important that WSOWS take away you main message, so you'd throw him the bone of reassurance of his hetero-ness so you could get on with the more important busisness at hand, but some people (WSOWS comes to mind) aren't going to appreciate that subtlety and your chance to bitch-slap . . . er, educate them about their rampant, stupid homophobia is lost. Maybe Dan and you could follow up your tolerant, sympathetic, and logical advice with another lesson, too.
@6(mydriasis): I think you missed EricaP's very interesting point, which is not that a person can have sexual experiences with members of the same sex and still consider him- or herself fundamentally straight (and be legitimately considered straight by others), but that all these "straight" guys who seek mtf tanswomen (and especially those who look for trans porn and hire trans sex workers) are, if not gay or even bi, not 100% straight, either. Dan points out, and OutinBumF seconds, that this isn't something a gay man would do; nevertheless, as EricaP noted, it isn't an accident that these unwitting straight guys find themselves with a woman who has a penis. She was just suggesting that in this, as in most things in our culture, women are allowed a lot more latitude in crossing gender boundaries without being penalized for it (think tomboy vs. sissy or "I Kissed a Girl"), and she was proposing a higher level of tolerance for the idea that a mostly straight-identified man can want to play around with a little dick once in awhile.
More...
All the reassurances that both you and Dan are giving subtly reinforce his homophobia: "don't worry, sweetie, you're still straight" implies that being straight is preferable to being gay. Now, I realize that both you and Dan couched your respective advice in those terms deliberately, and there is more than a touch of irony in both your tones, and that perhaps both of you felt that it was more important that WSOWS take away you main message, so you'd throw him the bone of reassurance of his hetero-ness so you could get on with the more important busisness at hand, but some people (WSOWS comes to mind) aren't going to appreciate that subtlety and your chance to bitch-slap . . . er, educate them about their rampant, stupid homophobia is lost. Maybe Dan and you could follow up your tolerant, sympathetic, and logical advice with another lesson, too.
@6(mydriasis): I think you missed EricaP's very interesting point, which is not that a person can have sexual experiences with members of the same sex and still consider him- or herself fundamentally straight (and be legitimately considered straight by others), but that all these "straight" guys who seek mtf tanswomen (and especially those who look for trans porn and hire trans sex workers) are, if not gay or even bi, not 100% straight, either. Dan points out, and OutinBumF seconds, that this isn't something a gay man would do; nevertheless, as EricaP noted, it isn't an accident that these unwitting straight guys find themselves with a woman who has a penis. She was just suggesting that in this, as in most things in our culture, women are allowed a lot more latitude in crossing gender boundaries without being penalized for it (think tomboy vs. sissy or "I Kissed a Girl"), and she was proposing a higher level of tolerance for the idea that a mostly straight-identified man can want to play around with a little dick once in awhile.
14
FWIW, I've never heard the term "throuple" . . . sounds vaguely like a combo throw pillow and dust ruffle. At least in my poly circles (San Francisco and environs), the standard term seems to be "triad." Amongst my friends and also in common parlance as in, pricing for events ("$15 for singles, $25 for couples, and $30 for triads." Or whatever . . .)
13
"Throuple"? Did we really need a portmanteau of "three" and "couple"? Why not triplet, or trio, or any real-word parallel to "couple" in reference to three-of-something? I'm disappointed.
12
Okay WSOWS, you're not gay. Your problem has nothing to do with straight or gay. Your problem has to do with your boundaries.
Here's what happened to you: somewhere, in your encounter, you crossed a line. You probably crossed more than one, and in fact, you probably crossed at least one that you didn't know you had, and now you're feeling like your boundaries have been violated, BECAUSE THEY HAVE. BY YOU. Let's try and list them all, so that we can tease apart exactly what is the problem...because it's not so simple as "OMG AM I GAY?"
*I'm guessing that this was your first time having sex with a paid professional.
*This was your first time being sexually penetrated with intent to fuck.
*This was your first time being with a transsexual woman.
And ALL of this happened while you were fucked up on hash and booze.
Here's what you've discovered about yourself: you've discovered that you do not LIKE being penetrated with intent to fuck. Fingering is okay. Blowjobs are okay. Penetration, for you, is not okay. Whether that's because it's a physical boundary (ouch), a mental boundary (is it too gay?) or an emotional boundary (speaking as a chick, penetrative sex can be an extremely intimate and frightening act, one where you have to just trust that your partner will not hurt you, one where you KNOW that you're immensely vulnerable and submissive) is irrelevant....what matters is it's a line that you will not cross. So, in the future, do NOT cross this line again.
You've discovered that you're straight. You keep thinking about how you want to fuck girls, you want to date girls. You hired a girl as a sex worker, albeit one with unusual factory equipment. Shout it from the rooftops, you're straight.
Here's the big one: You've discovered that you don't like feeling violated.
You don't like feeling violated. You don't like feeling like your boundaries were crossed. You don't like feeling like you're not in control (the way you phrased it, "somewhere during the encounter I became the receiving partner" doesn't exactly imply that you were actively planning it), and you even said you regret her "sticking her thing in your butt."
This is where it gets messy. You got fucked up on drugs, called a sex worker, paid her, and did things with her that you would not have done while you are sober. While you were fucked up on drugs, you said yes (or at least didn't object) when the sex worker penetrated you. If you were gleeful and willing while she gave you a blowjob, and gleeful and willing while she fingered you, and you did not give her any indication that you had second thoughts about penetration, she had no reason to believe that you did not want to be penetrated, and so she did what she probably does for most clients and fucked you. The next morning, cue squick.
I wouldn't call this a rape, since you were the person who called the sex worker and initiated the business transaction, and the sex worker did her job in good faith with no indication that you had a problem. (Right?) I think it's closer to a BDSM scene gone wrong, in which Bottom has had enough, but doesn't say the safe word right away, and when Bottom DOES say the safe word two minutes later, Top stops immediately but Bottom is now upset at Top for not stopping the very second Bottom wanted her to. Regardless, your line was still crossed, and it's normal and okay to feel upset that your line was crossed.
At the end of the day, Dan's advice is good advice to follow. Learn from this. Take the lesson, and move on. If you're still so upset that you're thinking of suicide, find a counsellor and talk about it....particularly one who is sex-positive, who will treat your boundary-violation problem with respect.
Meanwhile--don't call sex workers when you're fucked up, don't fuck anybody when you're fucked up, do not EVER fuck anybody else who is fucked up or who has not given you a clear willing loud YES (because now you KNOW just what kind of horrible damage that violation does to you), and if a girl asks to peg you, say no politely.
More...
Here's what happened to you: somewhere, in your encounter, you crossed a line. You probably crossed more than one, and in fact, you probably crossed at least one that you didn't know you had, and now you're feeling like your boundaries have been violated, BECAUSE THEY HAVE. BY YOU. Let's try and list them all, so that we can tease apart exactly what is the problem...because it's not so simple as "OMG AM I GAY?"
*I'm guessing that this was your first time having sex with a paid professional.
*This was your first time being sexually penetrated with intent to fuck.
*This was your first time being with a transsexual woman.
And ALL of this happened while you were fucked up on hash and booze.
Here's what you've discovered about yourself: you've discovered that you do not LIKE being penetrated with intent to fuck. Fingering is okay. Blowjobs are okay. Penetration, for you, is not okay. Whether that's because it's a physical boundary (ouch), a mental boundary (is it too gay?) or an emotional boundary (speaking as a chick, penetrative sex can be an extremely intimate and frightening act, one where you have to just trust that your partner will not hurt you, one where you KNOW that you're immensely vulnerable and submissive) is irrelevant....what matters is it's a line that you will not cross. So, in the future, do NOT cross this line again.
You've discovered that you're straight. You keep thinking about how you want to fuck girls, you want to date girls. You hired a girl as a sex worker, albeit one with unusual factory equipment. Shout it from the rooftops, you're straight.
Here's the big one: You've discovered that you don't like feeling violated.
You don't like feeling violated. You don't like feeling like your boundaries were crossed. You don't like feeling like you're not in control (the way you phrased it, "somewhere during the encounter I became the receiving partner" doesn't exactly imply that you were actively planning it), and you even said you regret her "sticking her thing in your butt."
This is where it gets messy. You got fucked up on drugs, called a sex worker, paid her, and did things with her that you would not have done while you are sober. While you were fucked up on drugs, you said yes (or at least didn't object) when the sex worker penetrated you. If you were gleeful and willing while she gave you a blowjob, and gleeful and willing while she fingered you, and you did not give her any indication that you had second thoughts about penetration, she had no reason to believe that you did not want to be penetrated, and so she did what she probably does for most clients and fucked you. The next morning, cue squick.
I wouldn't call this a rape, since you were the person who called the sex worker and initiated the business transaction, and the sex worker did her job in good faith with no indication that you had a problem. (Right?) I think it's closer to a BDSM scene gone wrong, in which Bottom has had enough, but doesn't say the safe word right away, and when Bottom DOES say the safe word two minutes later, Top stops immediately but Bottom is now upset at Top for not stopping the very second Bottom wanted her to. Regardless, your line was still crossed, and it's normal and okay to feel upset that your line was crossed.
At the end of the day, Dan's advice is good advice to follow. Learn from this. Take the lesson, and move on. If you're still so upset that you're thinking of suicide, find a counsellor and talk about it....particularly one who is sex-positive, who will treat your boundary-violation problem with respect.
Meanwhile--don't call sex workers when you're fucked up, don't fuck anybody when you're fucked up, do not EVER fuck anybody else who is fucked up or who has not given you a clear willing loud YES (because now you KNOW just what kind of horrible damage that violation does to you), and if a girl asks to peg you, say no politely.
11
dude if you didn't like it, you're straight.
if you liked it you're gay...
end of fucking story.
please be a man.
please
if you liked it you're gay...
end of fucking story.
please be a man.
please
10
I agree with Dan- us gay dudes are not into a female package with a dick. That's a straight dude's territory.
I think WSOWS real problem is he LIKED the dick, and doesn't know what that means now for his manhood, plus he's only 21. Liking the dick in the butt is the real fear here, as for most paranoid straight guys, or gay guys who don't know they're gay yet, and don't want to be gay.
WSOWS- have your girlfriend give it to you with a strap-on, then do your self-evaluation. If it's anal from a woman and it turns you on, you're still straight- you just like anal sex more than you thought.
I think WSOWS real problem is he LIKED the dick, and doesn't know what that means now for his manhood, plus he's only 21. Liking the dick in the butt is the real fear here, as for most paranoid straight guys, or gay guys who don't know they're gay yet, and don't want to be gay.
WSOWS- have your girlfriend give it to you with a strap-on, then do your self-evaluation. If it's anal from a woman and it turns you on, you're still straight- you just like anal sex more than you thought.
9
@5 aw, thanks!
@6 You prefer "open-minded"? Dan likes to say people "round down to straight." Whatever, I'm not the sexuality police.
@6 You prefer "open-minded"? Dan likes to say people "round down to straight." Whatever, I'm not the sexuality police.
8
what a guy WSOWS is...
if you're that bent out of shape then i'll give you a pass and say you're not gay...
but you're definitely, like was said before, a loser..grow up, stop being a fucking bigot, and learn that this isn't the worst thing you could do. People have real fucking problems...a little gay panic is the least of your concerns.
Welcome to adulthood.
if you're that bent out of shape then i'll give you a pass and say you're not gay...
but you're definitely, like was said before, a loser..grow up, stop being a fucking bigot, and learn that this isn't the worst thing you could do. People have real fucking problems...a little gay panic is the least of your concerns.
Welcome to adulthood.
7
lol
WSOWS...so you took a ride down the hershey highway and you discovered you didn't like it...
MOVE THE FUCK ON.
you drank too much JD and now you're bent outta shape because you think its gay...Dan's right...you're doing the gayest thing by contemplating suicide...you're 21 fucking years old! You barely have a life...man the fuck up and get on with it.
WSOWS...so you took a ride down the hershey highway and you discovered you didn't like it...
MOVE THE FUCK ON.
you drank too much JD and now you're bent outta shape because you think its gay...Dan's right...you're doing the gayest thing by contemplating suicide...you're 21 fucking years old! You barely have a life...man the fuck up and get on with it.
3
On a political level, I like Dan's insistence that men who like women-with-dicks are still straight. But as I meet more men with this interest, I think it's trickier than that. It's not that they find out after the petting starts that their lovely date has a dick. They go looking.
Surely, on some level, this explicit interest in transwomen is about straight men giving themselves permission to try something (dick) that they want to touch and taste etc., without having the baggage of thinking that they're gay or bi.
If straight women can flirt with women, kiss, touch each others' breasts, while only having to cop to "heteroflexible," then I think that should apply to guys too. It's a good term for guys who are just curious and open-minded, not obsessed with dick.
Surely, on some level, this explicit interest in transwomen is about straight men giving themselves permission to try something (dick) that they want to touch and taste etc., without having the baggage of thinking that they're gay or bi.
If straight women can flirt with women, kiss, touch each others' breasts, while only having to cop to "heteroflexible," then I think that should apply to guys too. It's a good term for guys who are just curious and open-minded, not obsessed with dick.
2
I say WSOWS is gay (or bi), but he's got too many issues to admit it already. Dan is right, though: it's not the dick up his ass that made him gay. Because he's always been like that.
1
You were so much kinder to WSOWS than he deserves, Dan. This is why they pay you the big bucks, because I would have said, "so what if you're gay? What if you are? Who cares? What does that change? What's so terrible about that?"
This attitude in 1963 I could understand, even if it would make me sad. This attitude in 2013, is ridiculous. And anyone who has read your column enough to write to you about this "problem," and then freaks out like that deserves a serious talking to, not a coddling.
WSOWS: grow up. You're probably straight. But you're definitely an asshole.
This attitude in 1963 I could understand, even if it would make me sad. This attitude in 2013, is ridiculous. And anyone who has read your column enough to write to you about this "problem," and then freaks out like that deserves a serious talking to, not a coddling.
WSOWS: grow up. You're probably straight. But you're definitely an asshole.
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