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Cuck You

February 19, 2014

I am a straight male, married to a woman for 25 years. Our marriage started to go sour about 14 years ago. Sex was infrequent and stultifying. Finally, when the kids were old enough, I made plans to separate. When my wife got wind of these plans, she finally agreed to work on our relationship. We had long and heartfelt conversations. Things got better. Sex got more frequent, if not more exciting. Then I saw a letter referencing cuckolding in your column in the Coast, the weekly paper here in Halifax. I mentioned it to my wife. She asked me to read it to her. This led to a conversation about the possibility of introducing cuckolding into our relationship. She agreed after she made certain it was something I really wanted. She now has a guy in mind. My first choice for this scenario would be all three of us having sex. My second choice would be he and I having sex with her. The third would be me watching. The last would be them having sex and me hearing about it afterward. She has opted for the last option and is reluctant to share all the details. She has asked me why her having sex with another man is so exciting. She speculated it is because I have a big ego—if other men want her, her value is higher. That sounded weird to me. For me, it is all about sex. The idea of her letting another guy in, going down on him, etc. is exciting to me. We will be breaking the rules for what married couples are supposed to do. I have been on cuckolding websites. It seems a lot of guys go in for humiliation. Some claim they have small dicks and want a larger man to satisfy their wives. None of those things apply to me. I just think it is hot, exciting sex. My question: Has there been research into cuckolding? Why do husbands find it hot and desirable?

Clearly Understanding Cuckold Kink

"There hasn't been a lot of research into the cuckolding phenomenon," said David J. Ley, PhD, a clinical psychologist and the author of Insatiable Wives: Women Who Stray and the Men Who Love Them. "Historically, men whose wives cuckolded them were publicly humiliated, and their wives were often severely punished. It is only in the past decade or so that this fantasy has catapulted itself into the public consciousness, largely due to an intersection of female sexual liberation and the ability of the internet to allow men with these fantasies to find each other and learn they are not alone."

Because of this history—cuckolded men publicly shamed, cuckolding wives brutally punished—there hasn't been much nonjudgmental, non-sex-panicky research into men with your desires, CUCK. Ley's book represents the first comprehensive effort to explore your particular kink.

"CUCK's wife is right," said Ley, "in that many men do get an ego boost out of sharing their 'hot wife.' But there are many other motivations as well. Some men are into the idea of cuckolding and humiliation, in a masochistic way. Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, who masochism was named after, explored this fantasy specifically for the humiliation of it."

Men who enjoy the humiliation aspect of their wives sleeping with other men tend to identify with the term "cuckold," CUCK, while men who are into the hot, exciting sex aspect—men like you—tend to identity as "hotwifers."

"There are lots of men who explore this fantasy just because they think it's very sexy to imagine or see their wife having hot sex with someone else and being fully satisfied," said Ley. "One very interesting biological theory for this is related to the concept of sperm competition. Essentially, the theory goes that men get physically aroused when they know that their sperm might have to compete with those of another man, in order to possibly (even theoretically) impregnate a woman. In such circumstances, the men thrust harder and deeper during sex, they ejaculate harder, and their ejaculate contains more sperm."

As for your wife's restrictions—you can't be there, she'll share some details but not all—Ley thinks your wife is testing you. "She's setting boundaries," said Ley. "She wants to see how serious CUCK is, how he's going to react. And she's also establishing some level of independence. It's her body and her sexuality, too, after all." Ley thinks you guys are coming at this from a good place. Your marriage is on the upswing, you're talking about your desires openly and honestly, and you're willing to compromise. "I've worked with couples who have made this fantasy and lifestyle work," said Ley. "And the key component is communication, grounded by mutual trust and respect. If you pursue this, do it with honest communication on both your parts."

You can follow Dr. Ley on Twitter @DrDavidLey.

I am a straight 19-year-old girl in college. I broke up with my boyfriend of several months a week before Valentine's Day (a WHOLE nother situation), and during that relationship, I met this other guy, one of his friends. This friend has been in a relationship for 2.5 years. But his girlfriend cheated on him, and now he has a free card to go fuck someone else. He wants that person to be me! We have fooled around some, but even though I am not looking for a relationship right now, I have reservations about fucking someone who is in a relationship, even if it's on a Go Fuck Someone Else card. Advice?

Uneasy And Unsure

Unless there are just two guys at your college—your ex and this dude with the Go Fuck Someone Else card—I would urge you to fuck someone else. This scenario has drama written all over it. Your ex will be pissed at you for fucking his friend, he'll be pissed at his friend for fucking you, the friend's girlfriend will be pissed at you for fucking her boyfriend—GFSE card or no GFSE card. Who needs that kind of grief? Find a hot student, RA, TA, or prof who isn't in your circle and fuck him instead.

I'm a 25-year-old guy with a gender-neutral partner. We've been monogamous for about three years, and our GGG sex life is fantastic. One of our favorite things to do is for me to deep-throat their cock. It's long and thick—definitely bigger than average—and I take pride in being able to fit it all the way down my throat. They sometimes fuck my throat, quite roughly at times. Is there a medical danger to deep-throating? Sometimes it makes my throat a little sore for a few days after. We've tried to stop deep-throating while we figure out if it's dangerous or not. But when we get caught up in the moment, it's just so hot that we can't stop ourselves. What should we do? Could we be harming my throat?

Two Wondering If Naughty Kink's Safe

I could go find an expert for you, TWINKS, or search the medical literature. But if deep-throating were dangerous—if cocks were doing permanent damage to throats—I would've heard about it by now. An intense deep-throating session is physically taxing, and you feel it for a few days after. Snowboarding, which I'm off doing with husband and son this week, has the same effect on my legs. My advice: Take it easy for a while after trashing your throat, just as I take it easy after trashing my legs.

Hear the Lovecast recorded live at Seattle's Neptune Theatre on Valentine's Day at recommended

@fakedansavage on Twitter


Comments (78) RSS

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The first LW doesn't sound like he's really into cuckolding. It sounds like he's into watching his wife have sex, because he thinks his wife is hot and watching her have sex would be hot. His ideal is a threesome, which isn't really a cuckolding thing as I think of it. It might be helpful if he explained to his wife something along those lines: I think you're really sexy and watching you have sex would be amazing. It's hard to watch if I'm doing it, so the thought of getting to watch you have sex with someone else excites me.

If I'm right about it, then that might be useful.

To the last letter, lots of things temporarily irritate the throat. Too much talking or singing can do that, for example. Then you let your throat rest, and it gets better.
Posted by uncreative on February 18, 2014 at 7:18 PM · Report this
nocutename 2
Ah man, I saw "Cuck You," and thought it was going to be a column about my alma mater.
Posted by nocutename on February 18, 2014 at 7:50 PM · Report this
Sounds to me like you don't really want cuckolding (in that you strongly prefer to be an active participant, which is more just swinging than cuckolding), but she is turning it into cuckolding by excluding you.

Might want to re-check your negotiations. Do you get to fuck around yourself, and potentially keep details from her? If you don't actually want that, then never mind. Just that, in the course of setting expectations, be clear on exactly what you want, what you _don't_ want, and what you don't care about; and don't get talked into a version of the situation -- especially an unequal version -- that you hadn't bargained for.
Posted by avast2006 on February 18, 2014 at 8:02 PM · Report this
Sounds to me like LW1 is bi and wants to indulge with his wife, and it isn't necessarily about cuckolding per se.
Posted by hurrdahurr on February 18, 2014 at 8:12 PM · Report this
Look at CUCK's top preference:
>>My first choice for this scenario would be all three of us having sex. My second choice would be he and I having sex with her. The third would be me watching. >>

He wants to have sex with a guy. He should own up to that. It's not likely to go away, and maybe his wife would find it hot, or anyway not jealousy-inducing.
Posted by EricaP on February 18, 2014 at 8:15 PM · Report this
If we have learned anything from Richard Dawson, Brett Somers and the ineffable Charles Nelson Reilly, it is to trust the first instinct. Think how long the first couple could have been happily and efficiently divorced.
Posted by vennominon on February 18, 2014 at 8:29 PM · Report this
Dan Savage, cuck yeah!
Posted by bodhirungus on February 18, 2014 at 8:40 PM · Report this
Normally I defer to Ms. Erica, but since all three scenarios involve CUCK's wife, I don't think the bottom line is about him wanting to have sex with a guy.

He wants MMF three-ways.

And yes, maybe the next step from the MMF three-ways will be sex with a guy. So he's perhaps nudging himself toward more explicitly bisexual or homosexual experiences--but not necessarily.
Posted by Functional Atheist on February 18, 2014 at 8:56 PM · Report this
Hmm, it made me retch often enough (also hot, apparently, to my guy) that when I started having more reflux/heartburn, I worried about it corroding my esophageal valve, like what happens to bulimics. I've backed off it (or he has, ha) and it seems to be helping Just my imagination?
Posted by california reader on February 18, 2014 at 9:12 PM · Report this
@8, I was struck by the fact it was his first choice. But maybe he mostly wants some ‘strange' and gender is less important. In any case I think this guy won't be happy just hearing vague stories from his wife.
Posted by EricaP on February 18, 2014 at 9:22 PM · Report this
yuck. married for 25 yrs, stultifying, infrequent sex. i predict divorce after this experiment fizzles, which it will. (hint: his 4th choice consolation scenario is her first choice, and doubtless what they will wind up doing). i'm 50 now, and been there, tried that. but they will find out themselves eventually...
Posted by ellarosa on February 18, 2014 at 10:09 PM · Report this
seandr 12
Why do husbands find [cuckolding] hot and desirable?

Sounds like your interest is more about mixing things up than it is about cuckolding per se.

I know that when my marriage was on the rocks and I was ready to separate, the idea of my wife with other men went from making me sick to the stomach to being an intriguing idea. Once you remove the fear losing her from the equation, either because you are secure in the relationship or you're comfortable with it ending, let's face it, the idea is hot. And if it might it disrupt the status quo, why not give it a shot?

My wife wasn't into it, though - having sex with another man was tantamount to ending our relationship in her mind. I guess you'll soon find out your own wife's emotional calculus in that regard.
Posted by seandr on February 18, 2014 at 11:49 PM · Report this
what is a gender-neutral partner?
Posted by chaya760 on February 19, 2014 at 12:17 AM · Report this
I realize that gendered pronouns are not good enough but "them" sounds somehow as if you are talking about a hypothetical stranger.
Posted by puddles on February 19, 2014 at 1:42 AM · Report this
Neither hot nor not but thinking makes it so.
Posted by vennominon on February 19, 2014 at 3:47 AM · Report this
saxfanatic 16
@14:...or murderous radioactive super ants from New Mexico!
Posted by saxfanatic on February 19, 2014 at 3:59 AM · Report this
@13: Someone who doesn't clearly present (or identify) as male or female.

Re 3, 4, 5: LW1 seems to have a vocabulary issue. When I hear "I read about cuckolding in Dan Savage, read the letter to my partner, and she agreed she might be willing to try it" I land on option 4, his least favorite, as the obvious thing he was asking for. The others are all variations on three-ways. So it's hardly surprising that she wound up on that. Also, given that she is indulging HIS fantasy, starting at what he views as the lowest-level indulgence, also the one with which she is most comfortable, is a case of "um, duh" not "that dreadful woman not going direct for the MMF threeway she doesn't want when her husband asks to be cuckolded, the poor guy."
Posted by IPJ on February 19, 2014 at 4:48 AM · Report this
I'll admit to doing some sharp editing in what I took from CUCK's letter. I saw a wife who only got concerned about the state of her marriage and her husband's unhappiness when she got wind of his plans to leave her. That and a wife who listened to her husband's prioritized list of what would make him happy and settled on his least favorite and the one that disincludes her husband as much as possible. She sleeps with someone else and doesn't even tell him much about it-- the very thing he wants! To me, the rest of the letter is all blah, blah, blah.

Here's a guy who's been married for 25 years and unhappy for half that time. He doesn't say what's right in his marriage. I can understand (though not wholeheartedly recommend) someone sacrificing his own happiness to the happiness of others, but in this case, even his wife doesn't sound happy. She's reluctantly found a guy. It sounds like she just doesn't want to have sex with anyone. She could have that if they were divorced!

I figure this guy is in his 50s. I'd guess that there are tons of available women who would think he was a good catch. While I commend Dan for doing his best to answer the question that was asked, the thing poor CUCK needs to hear is: DTMFA.
Posted by Crinoline on February 19, 2014 at 4:55 AM · Report this
Also, Dan, we have tried to explain about not all workplaces being The Stranger in terms of "bang whoever you want, who cares" policy. She should probably avoid professors even if they are not directly teaching her class.

It doesn't sound like she wants to have no-strings sex with anyone, and is just wondering if the guy handiest at the moment is a good choice. (No. For all the reasons you gave.) She is interested in NSA sex with this specific guy, who turns her on, but cautious for all the right reasons. Which is a slightly different problem.

Also, I can't tell if "not in your circle" clarifies only prof or all the other nouns, but it sounds like she's interested in more of a FWB situation (i.e. she does want an emotional rapport with the guy, not a random she won't see again) so finding someone "not in her circle" for that is kind of challenging.
Posted by IPJ on February 19, 2014 at 4:57 AM · Report this
I always worry that people will miss Dan's sense of humor and need to drum up discussion by saying something outrageous. For UAU-- If you want to save yourself a lot of grief, keep away from the TAs and the profs. There are other men on campus you can fuck without endangering their careers, and while I'd say it was their responsibility to turn down the undergrads who come on to them, why not make it easy all around by leaving them off your list.
Posted by Crinoline on February 19, 2014 at 5:02 AM · Report this
@18: It's not unusual for people to start working on their marriage only when they get the "Wait, you're thinking of LEAVING?!!!" codfish upside the head. They talked, sex got more frequent (it didn't magically turn into different sex, which, if he hadn't asked for different yet, is not surprising), things were improving.

To me the timeline and odd vocabulary choice leaves open the possibility that his explicit list of preferred options followed the suggestion of a possible guy, and she may have been (rightly) cautious that this seemed to be turning into something else, and she was going to stay with the lower key (in her view) option.

Also, it is really unfair to ask your partner, "I would really like to try X. We could do variations XA, XB, XC, or XD. Which are you okay with?"
"I could give XD a shot."
And then be all hurt that your partner is willing to try exactly what you asked for. If he hated the idea of cuckolding he maybe shouldn't have asked, specifically and by name, for cuckolding: I can see where she'd get confused.

As Ley says, and Dan says all the time as well, if you want to try an open relationship you let your partner lay down boundaries and show you will respect them. Then they may trust you enough to try edging the boundaries outward.

Posted by IPJ on February 19, 2014 at 5:16 AM · Report this
I agree with IPJ-he presented the idea of cuckolding and she chose a variation that he offered and I'm not sure how he gets standing to be less than thrilled. Opening up a 25 year marriage is a pretty damn big deal. His wife gets credit for being willing to explore the concept but I think the LW isn't really clear or isn't clearly communicating what it is he wants. I think they need to keep talking and do some more research before taking the plunge.
Posted by jujubee80 on February 19, 2014 at 5:44 AM · Report this
I do believe that LW may have painted himself into a corner by not fully comprehending the term cuckolding. While he may have found stories/porn involving actual cuckolding appealing, he was probably just focused on the sexual pairing in the situation. Like Dr. Ley says, he's probably into "hotwifing" and not cuckolding.

Also, I wonder if the wife's discomfort with LW being present might be discomfort with exhibitionism so she's choosing the option that has no element of exhibitionism. Even sharing detail post-coitus is slightly exhibitionist which she is avoiding.

Ultimately, what he's asking for is for her to be on display, and be an exhibitionist for him. I wonder if she's ever let him watch her masturbate. If not, I think that might be a better place to start rather than her having sex with another guy.
Posted by pb1230 on February 19, 2014 at 6:55 AM · Report this
Nowhere does the husband say that he's hurt or unsatisfied that his wife didnt jump right on his first choice. They are communicating and compromising - so far so good.
Posted by Naq on February 19, 2014 at 9:43 AM · Report this
TWINKS just wanted to brag about having a gender-neutral partner with a big cock...which is fine, way to go TWINKS.
Posted by jaspercat on February 19, 2014 at 10:10 AM · Report this
Candaulism. Google it.
Posted by BostonBart on February 19, 2014 at 11:05 AM · Report this
AFinch 27
@6: eloquently put.

@LW3 - the only things I can think of are not specific to deep throating but are on on the rise: HPV is causing an increase in esophageal cancer; also gonorrhea. Not sure the increase for deep-throating is substantially worse than just oral, but I'm gonna bet anything that leaves your esophagus abraded (raw/sore for days) is probably going to cause an increased rate of transmission.
Posted by AFinch on February 19, 2014 at 11:27 AM · Report this
I agree that what CUCK may really be looking for is swinging, not cuckholding. There are many couples who swing with single guys or with men who play separate from their partner. Occasionally there is play amongst all three in a MFM, but male bisexuality is still taboo (and female bisexuality is assumed) in the swinger world and therefore usually only happens at private homes or designated bisexual parties.

In swinging, there are many opportunities for MFMF, MFM, FMF or whatever combination they are looking for. There are couples as well as single guys & girls who are looking to play. Some couples only play with others together, and others play separate & share the details later. The other benefit to playing in the swinger world is that everyone understands the rules, they usually play safe & they aren't looking for a relationship with your wife, just sex (especially if the other guy is happily married as well).
Posted by OCBiGirl on February 19, 2014 at 12:00 PM · Report this
The fact that he picked up on cuckolding, which involves another man, and not what we are led to believe is every straight man's dream, a FFM 3-way, tells me that he really could want the cuckold experience.

The option his wife chose is the basis of cuckolding—where the husband is out of the picture for the sex act. Allowing or requiring the husband to watch is a modern, kinkier version. I can only see allowing him to participate—and still call it cuckolding—as a scene in which he is not allowed to penetrate his wife, while being directed and controlled by the other two.

His wife may have been wise to choose what should be the least risk for their dynamic, for her will be the easiest, and could give her the most power. They can see how the reality of it impacts them and then move on to more if they choose.

I'm really hoping for a report from CUCK after the scene takes place.
Posted by vab251 on February 19, 2014 at 2:43 PM · Report this
@23 I agree that the exhibitionist angle should be considered. I turned down a very hot woman recently because her boyfriend wanted to watch. *sigh* I would prefer the men play the XBox or something instead of watching.
Posted by wxPDX on February 19, 2014 at 2:44 PM · Report this
The thing about cuckolding that's hot (full confession: seen it in porn, think it's hot, never done it, unlikely to do it) is that you're seeing someone to whom you're sexually attracted be sexual with someone else. It's the ultimate (and dare I say intensest) tease possible. Postponing gratification makes it more intense, and now not only is gratification delayed, but it's removed from the guy's own person. That has to intensify everything and drive the guy insane with want. Seeing another guy fuck your wife, you will want to be in his spot so bad - it's like talking dirty to your partner only showing them, not telling them. Also, guys are conditioned to respond when women are sexually available - whether that's being flirtatious or even mildly physical - so imagine seeing a woman not just be somewhat sexual, but literally sexual.

Even without the humiliation or ego part of it, it's easy to see why that would be a popular fantasy. Toss in the fear element (ohmygod, my wife is fucking someone else), layer on the sperm competition theory, and well, again, hard to imagine a more intense, more sexual experience.

Now put the ego part into it for some guys and the humiliation aspect into it for others, and you have an explosive fantasy/act.

No research required to explain all that...
Posted by Centrists Rule the World today on February 19, 2014 at 3:42 PM · Report this
nocutename 32
Well, thank you for that image and thought, Centrists Rule the World today. Now I need to splash some cold water on my face.
Posted by nocutename on February 19, 2014 at 3:55 PM · Report this
Am I the only one who thought it seemed like the first couple does NOT have good communication?
Posted by random_lez on February 19, 2014 at 5:44 PM · Report this
Griz here....hmmmm.....everyone please forgive me for not having anything to offer the LWs in this week's Savage Love column.

I'm with nocutename---I need to splash some cold water on my face right now, too.

Everyone wish me well on next month's endometrial ablation procedure! I saw my OB-GYN today, and so far, so good.
i hope this works! Then I'll REALLY have some heavy partying to do on my Big 5-0!
Posted by auntie grizelda on February 19, 2014 at 11:45 PM · Report this
LW1 should consider a fifth option. His wife and her chosen gentleman engage in the carnal acts of their choice while being discreetly filmed. When the act is over, his wife presents him with the tape. Then he gets to watch his wife without making anyone feel uncomfortable. From there they can work up to him watching irl or becoming an active participant.
Though I have to say, it sounds to me like his wife is trying to be both GGG and mysterious. She wants to hold back and feed him only little bits of info. Keep him wanting more and driving him crazy because he is only getting little bits. She's playing this very smart imho.
Posted by bxtorr19 on February 20, 2014 at 12:36 AM · Report this
Since when is the word "cuckold" an anagram for "I want to suck another dude's dick"?

CUCK wants COCK. He wants it so much that he's even willing to invite his wife into the scenario. But she didn't want to see how much more excited her husband was with another dude's cock than he is with her so she suggested option 4. She does another dude -- which would just make husband jealous that he wasn't getting the cock.
Posted by G-man on February 20, 2014 at 7:37 AM · Report this
An idea for CUCK. Have this new guy take your wife doggy style while you are laying underneath watching. Just before he comes, he should withdraw and allow the wife to stroke him so that the new guy comes in CUCKs mouth. Oooops sorry, that was really more for my sake than his. LOL
Still something he might want to try and I'll bet his wife would really get off on it too...
Posted by Bondsman51 on February 20, 2014 at 7:38 AM · Report this
sissoucat 38
@31 Casanova wrote in his memoirs that he was the "other man" for a cuckold and despite knowing he was being watched (the mistress had told him), he gave the best performance he could, and that included pretending he didn't know he was being watched, in order to spare the cuckold's feelings and his trust in his mistress.

Then he comments that it wasn't in his tastes to be himself a cuckold, but being watched by one in the act didn't bother him, the more so because without the cuckold he wouldn't have been allowed to have sex with the cuckold's mistress.
Posted by sissoucat on February 20, 2014 at 7:52 AM · Report this
It's not clear to me what the difference is between LW1's first choice ("all three of us having sex") and his second choice ("he and I having sex sex with her"). My best guess is that the first choice involves man on man action, although I suppose it could just mean that the men act as a team in satisfying the wife and in the second choice doing it sequentially.
As a cuckold myself, I would prefer that my wife start any new relationship with choice #4 (having sex and me hearing about it afterwards), because that seems to be more about her enjoyment and less about her performing for me. Later if she likes, it could progress to choices 2 and then 3, but not to LW1's first choice, if I interpret it correctly, because I am not bisexual. While there are many types of cuckolds (I consider myself a hotwife enthusiast-cuckold mix (I'm into fem-dom, but not humiliation), it appears to me that LW1 is only using cuckolding as a cover to explore bisexuality. Now while there are certainly bisexual cuckolds, I think most of them would like to progress in reverse order of LW1's preferences.
Posted by subhubby on February 20, 2014 at 8:59 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 40
What compromise is LW1's wife making? She's met another guy in whom she's interested; getting a pass to have sex with that guy, while the husband gets nothing--not even the details that a cuckold would want--is not a compromise.

Compromise does not mean "I do what I want, you get nothing."
Posted by Eudaemonic on February 20, 2014 at 9:54 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 41
@21: Also, it is really unfair to ask your partner, "I would really like to try X. We could do variations XA, XB, XC, or XD. Which are you okay with?"
"I could give XD a shot."
And then be all hurt that your partner is willing to try exactly what you asked for.

The last would be them having sex and me hearing about it afterward. She has opted for the last option and is reluctant to share all the details.

Did you miss that part? She didn't chose XD, she chose XE, a thing he did not ask for and did not want. She presented it as choosing XD, but then reneged.

Claiming that you're only giving someone what they asked for, when you've reneged on a bargain, is not how you treat a partner you care about, and it's not how people negotiate in good faith.

LW1: DTMFA. She doesn't make you happy, and she doesn't want to.
Posted by Eudaemonic on February 20, 2014 at 10:01 AM · Report this
@40 She didn't say she won't tell him anything, she just said she was reluctant to share all the details. While I can only speak for myself- my term as official spokesman for cuckolds just expired- I find that hotter than her dutifully giving me a full report immediately. This allows the possibility of more juicy details later, and places her more in control. Of coarse you could be correct and she isn't interested in giving him what he wants at all, if indeed he wants a cuckold experience.
Posted by subhubby on February 20, 2014 at 10:27 AM · Report this

While she may want/like more control, my his disappointment, its definitely not what he wants, so he's not communicating effectively what he wants or the wife is purposefully holding out since he was the one that was pushing for this to begin with. I'm made the comment early - the wife could be uncomfortable with exhibitionism and is avoiding any element of it.
Posted by pb1230 on February 20, 2014 at 11:11 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 44
@ 43: In that case, the wife should have said "no," rather than negotiating in bad faith.

Partners who negotiate in bad faith are motherfuckers who need to be dumped already.
Posted by Eudaemonic on February 20, 2014 at 11:16 AM · Report this
@39 its definitely hard to understand what LW1 really wants. He says just wants the sex and not the humiliation, in which case he's likely just misusing the term cuckolding. You bring up a good point about fem-dom of which there is some overlap with cuckolding in the Venn diagram of sexuality and might be adding to his confusion since they aren't actually one in the same. Probably what he wants can be found in cuckolding scenarios, but its not the cuckolding itself that he wants.

Hotwifing is probably at least a part of what he wants. And if that's all his option 1 would be her taking 2 dicks at once. He may also want bi group sex in which option 1 there is guy on guy action. Then there's the fem-dom where he just might mean he wants to be ordered to have sex with a guy in which case the guy on guy is more about her total control rather than his sexuality.

Posted by pb1230 on February 20, 2014 at 11:43 AM · Report this
Whether whatever Lw1, his wife, both, or neither wants is cuckoldry, I don't think this is going to work. After 14 years of dysfunctional marriage, you can't manufacture sexual desire with threat of divorce. Cuckolding or swinging is not a cure for a bad relationship. Hotwifing (or cuckolding, or whatever you want to call our particular mix) works for my wife and me because we had an excellent relationship before we even attempted it.
Posted by subhubby on February 20, 2014 at 12:25 PM · Report this
@46 His lack of clarity seems to be a common theme, but its not clear what the timeline was of the relationship issues. He states that he's been married for 25 years and problems started 14 years ago. But it doesn't say when things started getting better, and when the cuckolding was brought up. We can really only assume that her finding a potential guy is a recent event.

Who knows, maybe things got better 5+ years ago and the "cuckolding" thing got brought up a few years after that, but it took this long for her to identify a guy she is interested in. In which case, their relationship might be on stable ground. He says he waited until the kids were old enough, but does that mean in college/out of the house or maybe just high school aged and capable of having more serious discussions about divorce.
Posted by pb1230 on February 20, 2014 at 1:49 PM · Report this
@47 Yeah, you're right about our lack of information about the time line. The fact that "she finally agreed to work on our relationship" only when threatened with separation, however, leads me to think she's trying to fake a sexual attraction that isn't there. Besides dealing with the LW's lack of clarity, we're also, as always, dealing with not getting the whole picture because the necessarily abbreviated format. During the time (however long) the marriage was sexually dysfunctional, what does the LW perceive to be the cause and what was done to try to correct it? Luckily, not having enough information isn't enough to keep me from writing about my favorite subject (sex) on a rainy afternoon.
Posted by subhubby on February 20, 2014 at 2:41 PM · Report this
sissoucat 49
@subhubby@46 agreed.
Posted by sissoucat on February 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM · Report this
With regard to Cuck, I'm guessing they are in their early 50s or thereabouts. At that stage of life a woman may have doubts about her appeal. Being scrutinize simultaneously by two men (even if one is your husband) may be too daunting. Taking it at a slower pace may be a better approach for testing the whole lifestyle. With success, moving to some of hubbies more demanding scenarios may be easier. Husband needs to be more patient and continue to be supportive.
Posted by whatho on February 20, 2014 at 3:06 PM · Report this
@48, agreed that the situation isn't a sign of a healthy relationship, but sometimes people do just need a kick in the head to get their attention. People's sexuality waxes and waned over time, and sometimes they need to be reminded of the importance of sex, so she might not be faking and something genuinely may have been reawoken. We also don't know how there sex life was before things got bad, was it good/great or just merely adequate/tolerable. If it was good, then I side with a reawakening.
Posted by pb1230 on February 20, 2014 at 4:52 PM · Report this
@5 and @36--exactly, I think he's turning bisexual in middle age, which happens to quite a few guys. Cuckolding's not my thing but because crossdressing is, I get a lot of exposure to crossdressers talking about it (the fetishes sometimes overlap). It's pretty unusual for the cuckold to want to have sex with the guy. The most cuckolds would want to do would be to clean up afterwards by giving the wife oral, or maybe a little oral to the guy to get him ready (I know that counts as sex, but it's not generally expressed the way this guy did). And hotwife guys might want MFM, but no homo. :D

The presence of his wife means that he doesn't have to worry about the third man forming an emotional attachment with him. Also it allows him to have an emotional component to the sex. And it also reassures her that he's not gay, that he's still interested in her and loves her.

My two cents.
Posted by Marrena on February 20, 2014 at 6:28 PM · Report this
Well, somewhere a gay baby just turned straight. Talk about the last place I expected to encounter that LMB-making phrase...
Posted by vennominon on February 20, 2014 at 8:47 PM · Report this
sb53 54
LW is doing the thing my wife did only he is WISELY discussing it beforehand.
I was surprised by my wife of many years when she decided to experiment with a full - swap situation with another couple we socialized with. WE had never discussed it beforehand and it required a lot of mental gymnastics on everyones part. After the thing was in progress, she changed her mind, & decided to not go through with it, which required another round of mental gymnastics. We did not discuss what happened that night but waited a couple years. She still does not have a clear understanding of what was going on. Fast forward 6 years, we have moved to a new city, and it happened once more with the exact same result. WE are still together, and she does not know why she did this, but I am always careful when we socialize with another couple, as it is emotional dynamite.
Posted by sb53 on February 21, 2014 at 7:12 AM · Report this
Indighost 55
Not sure if that's "advice" or "a joke" where Dan recommends getting together with a professor...I say EXTREMELY bad idea, not only is it going to cause a lot of drama and rule violations but it's extremely unfair to other students in the class.

Also, what the heck is a 'gender neutral person' ?
Posted by Indighost on February 21, 2014 at 7:25 AM · Report this
seandr 56
@G-man: Since when is the word "cuckold" an anagram for "I want to suck another dude's dick"?

If porn genres are any indication, there's definitely some overlap between enthusiasts of bisexuality and cuckoldry.

I suspect that proposing that your wife sleep with other men may in some cases be a "foot in the door" for men who's primary motivation is to suck cock or otherwise open up the relationship.
Posted by seandr on February 21, 2014 at 2:39 PM · Report this
seandr 57
@subhubby: you can't manufacture sexual desire with threat of divorce

No, not with the threat of divorce alone. You need to offer some carrots, not just the stick.
Posted by seandr on February 21, 2014 at 2:59 PM · Report this
@56 seandr: That may indeed be what LW1 wants, and some do use the pretext of cuckoldry to get cock. If that's what he's doing, he's just a little more obvious than most. His first choice is a sexual free for all. If your wife's first sex with another guy is a threesome with you, you haven't really been cuckolded.

@57 seandr: Yes, but I imagine the carrot is more effective, unless punishment is part of the fun.
Posted by subhubby on February 21, 2014 at 3:59 PM · Report this
@55, there are a lot of reasons people don't want to identify as the gender they are physically born with. Gender-dysphoria is a condition where you are literally born in the wrong-sex body. If you know you are a woman, and you were born in the body of a man, it can be one reason some go neutral, or more typically get a sex change.

Other reasons are sometimes political, or just that that person plain-old doesn't want to identify as either gender, and take on all the bullshit end of it that comes with one sex or the other! It's a spiritual choice, some identify as something greater than the gender role they're given at birth.

It's my belief that people aren't always one sex or the other, regardless of what body they're given. I am a woman, I identify as female, I have all the right parts, I am lucky. I am what's known as a "cis"-woman, naturally born that way. Some people are not so lucky, nature isn't perfect.

Thanks for asking a good question. :) I hope that cleared that up somewhat.

I have many gender-neutral or transgender friends, MtoF and FtoM, and I can assure you, you know when you're talking to a man or a woman, and bodies are only a thin disguise on top of the person underneath..
Posted by Chandira on February 21, 2014 at 4:49 PM · Report this
seandr 60
@subhubby: I don't know if threats of divorce are ever fun (although for every X, there always seems to be some group of men who get off on it).

However, they can certainly motivate a partner to search a little harder for any feelings of sexual desire that may have been packed away and forgotten in the attic.
Posted by seandr on February 21, 2014 at 4:58 PM · Report this
@seandr: I can see how a change in your partner's actions or appearance could affect a change in your sexual attraction to him, but I can't see a threat of separation eliciting passion. What I see that causing is a greater willingness to accommodate his needs, which is not the same thing and will likely diminish pretty quickly. A sexual attraction which is unexpressed for many years isn't hidden, it's non existent.
Posted by subhubby on February 21, 2014 at 6:03 PM · Report this
@61--or it could be buried under a thick layer of complacency, and just needs a good dusting off with, say, a threat of no longer being around. Isn't there some cliche somewhere about needing to fall in love with your partner again each day? Taking someone for granted is a good way to not do that.
Posted by LateBloomer on February 21, 2014 at 10:04 PM · Report this
As the great Margaret Cho says "If a man wants you to have sex with him and another man.....he's GAY! And you're his dick training wheels" I think she would know.
Posted by lucidleo on February 22, 2014 at 7:49 AM · Report this
As the great Margaret Cho says "If a man wants you to have sex with him and another man.....he's GAY! And you're his dick training wheels" I think she would know.
Posted by lucidleo on February 22, 2014 at 7:54 AM · Report this
"My first choice for this scenario would be all three of us having sex. My second choice would be he and I having sex with her." Excuse me, but is there a decipherable difference between these two choices?

Also, once again, Dan's response to CUCK consists of someone else's words. Sweet gig, getting paid to "give advice" when all you're doing is quoting another source.
Posted by wayne on February 22, 2014 at 8:13 AM · Report this
Bonefish 66
65: I'd argue that bringing in experts when the question is relevant to their expertise is responsible, not lazy.

Besides, it's not like it's exactly rare for Dan himself to respond.

Quit being so desperate to find faults in Dan; if you're patient, some real ones will turn up soon enough.
Posted by Bonefish on February 22, 2014 at 10:42 AM · Report this
67 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy

Well, somewhere a gay baby just turned straight.

Your comment pricked my ears more than most. I am reminded that many wars start with accusations of baby-killing.
Posted by Hunter78 on February 23, 2014 at 5:56 AM · Report this
I doubt that Marrena will declare war on venominnon.

Posted by migrationist on February 23, 2014 at 6:22 AM · Report this

Never occurred to me.
Posted by Hunter78 on February 23, 2014 at 7:18 AM · Report this
I'm ready to declare war on the Koch Brothers' Evil Empire.
Posted by auntie grizelda on February 23, 2014 at 2:17 PM · Report this
72 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy

Yes, by all means tell her their desire for her beauty makes you feel more powerful. Everyone loves flattery. The experts tell us modern cuckoldry is not well researched. You're thinking about it too much.

As others have pointed out, your first option was bi-curious. I think E was wrong when she thought that might be upsetting for you. You're a regular reader of the column, you wouldn't be disturbed by such a revelation.

She responded with the 4th option, which is not a good sign. In any event keep up with your plan. You have 25 y in this relationship. If she bails out, it won't be for want of trying.
Posted by Hunter78 on February 24, 2014 at 6:53 PM · Report this
ALWAYS Clear Your Cache!!! 74
Bingo @18
a wife who listened to her husband's prioritized list of what would make him happy and settled on his least favorite and the one that disincludes her husband as much as possible.
Posted by ALWAYS Clear Your Cache!!! on February 25, 2014 at 9:04 AM · Report this
@18, 74: Yes, this. The fact that she chose the option that not only is husband's least favorite, but is modified to exclude husband even more than he suggested, sounds like she is not doing this for his benefit. I can't help wondering if the behind-the-scenes version of Wife's offer of Option D-minus is that she has had someone on the side the whole time? That for her the cuckolding is a convenient free pass for what she has been sneaking? And the reason she doesn't want to share details is because that runs the risk of clueing in Hubby to the fact that it's been a long term cheating situation.

Maybe the new "guy in mind" is fictional, as a cover for the actual one, and she doesn't feel like making up details that she is then going to have to keep straight.
Posted by avast2006 on February 25, 2014 at 11:12 AM · Report this
torturedturnip 76
Dear Dan Savage,

My boyfriend always closes and locks the door behind him when he pees. It really bothers me and turns me off because it hurts my feelings. If he wasn't so prudish and such a prissy little puss, It would be a simple way of turning me on and arousing me for sex, to be a part of his pissing experience. He claims it's because he is pee shy. So I tested that theory; one day, I broke into my bathroom with a little screwdriver and found him peeing with his dick in his hands, standing there, grinning at me. So if he knows that I like it, and if the issue is about being pee shy, and not about a NO GIRLS ALLOWED MOMENT, then why can't he pee in front of me, especially if we have been lovers for five years now!?????

I would be grateful for your advice on how to get him to relax with his peeing moments a little more because I'm BORED. Thanks!
Posted by torturedturnip on February 25, 2014 at 11:35 AM · Report this
75-avast-- I didn't get the vibe that Wife was interested in sex with Other-- though your scenario could certainly be the case. I did get the sense that no matter what WIFE calls it, CUCK wants to bring a third into the relationship to strengthen what he has with Wife. Wife wants to bring a third into the relationship to continue her journey away from CUCK.
Posted by Crinoline on February 25, 2014 at 6:32 PM · Report this
Dear Mr. Savage,

First time commenter here. As a graduate student, please never tell anybody specifically to find a hot TA or Professor and go fuck them. As much as it is inappropriate for a teacher to proposition a student, it is equally inappropriate for a student to proposition a teacher. Not everyone is fully in control of their sexuality, and what appears to be a simple proposition from a hot student may quickly become an emotional crisis for an awkward TA caught between his job and a rare opportunity for unknown putative joys. It is far preferable that it never come to that dilemma, which will of necessity be emotionally triggering. Sex and the possibility of sex have a power over people that should be recognized and treated with care. I have a somewhat similar problem with a more recent letter I just read: one in which you counsel a young bi girl on how she should handle discussing the issue with a boyfriend who is not comfortable with the monogamish situation. One can't simply go up to your one's boyfriend and say, "I'm eating pussy now. Your move," as you seem to recommend therein. At least not without committing what I see as a deep ethical transgression. A committed relationship is something of a scaling back of the extreme independence you seem to advocate for everyone, and that includes sexual independence. It involves responsibility, and one of those responsibilities is to be respectful of your partner and the extraordinarily powerful, potentially dangerous emotions that such an announcement might cause. That means real discussion instead of potentially tragic unilateral assertion. I've been reading through a bunch of past letters, and I'm generally concerned that you are not taking into consideration what a delicate thing sex (and sexual trust in particular) is, especially for the non-LWs'. Then again, I'm new.
Posted by Palomydes on March 29, 2014 at 12:29 AM · Report this

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