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Only the Lonely
July 30, 2009
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Joe Newton
This question comes from a point of real frustration. I'm a 26-year-old straight guy. Due to my being overweight, awkward, and generally unable to attract women I'm actually interested in, I have only been sexually intimate with prostitutes and women of low caliber. I have never been able to sustain an erection during intercourse. I've climaxed during oral sex or handjobs. I'm not physically accustomed to getting off with anything but my hand. Worst of all, the intense fear of impotence has caused me to avoid sexual liaisons. When dating, I feel threatened by the expectation of sex within the first few dates. Any solid advice?
Sick Of Beatin'
Join a gym and lose some weight. You'll gain some confidence and improve your health—and your circulation—which could help in the keeping-the-dick-hard department. (I'm not telling you that you have to transform yourself into a muscle god to be happy or find love.) Seeing a doctor and getting your hands on some Viagra couldn't hurt, either. Vary your masturbatory technique.
Stop sleeping with women unless you're attracted to them on some level, and recognize that holding the women who will sleep with you in contempt is an expression of self-hatred and knock it the fuck off. Since sex within the first few dates makes you feel anxious, inform anyone you date that you're not up for having sex within the first few dates. And the next time you find yourself in bed with someone or sense that things are headed there, SOB, tell her that you're really only interested in oral and mutual masturbation—at least at first—and that you generally take a long time to come. Then you don't have to stress out about failing to meet her expectations, because she won't be expecting anything other than what you're capable of delivering.
Finally, there are sex workers out there who will not only get you off in exchange for your money, SOB, but will work with you on improving your skills and building up your confidence. You may have slept with one already without realizing it because you so resented having to pay for it that you dismissed her as a cheap whore to protect your ego. Dumb mistake.
I'm a heterosexual male. I've never been in a long-term relationship, I've never been in a short-term relationship, I've never been in a relationship. Four make-out sessions in my youth and paid sex with cheap street prostitutes is all the physical intimacy I've ever known. And sometime before the end of this year, I'll be turning 45.
I have no explanation for how I fucked up something this important this badly for this long, but here are my best clues: (1) Deep down, I don't think I've ever really believed women could possibly find me attractive. (2) For me, being rejected and/or humiliated after approaching someone is an almost paralyzing fear. (3) My professional/career/financial situation is only slightly better than my romantic/sexual situation: I'm always either barely getting by or in some crisis where staying non-homeless is my only priority.
I want to understand what the fuck is wrong with me and why I'm staring at a lifetime of totally unfulfilled romantic and sexual hopes and dreams. The last thing I need right now is some Pollyanna bullshit. I want brutal honesty.
A Lifelong Onanist Needs Explanations
Some people are alone all their lives because they're too damaged or too terrified or too terrifying, ALONE, and some people are alone all their lives because they are simply, as the cliché goes, unlucky in love. It sounds like you suffer from social and sexual anxieties—damaged and terrified—and could benefit from seeing a shrink. You say you're barely getting by, ALONE, but if you're spending money on cigarettes or booze or pot or all three, well, you might want to prioritize your mental health over those nonessentials.
Now here's the usual line of Pollyanna crap that we advice professionals are supposed to squart out for people like you: There's someone out there for everyone, kiddo, hang in there! But that's a lie, ALONE, and you know it and I know it and everyone who's ever said that knows it. If it were true, then... no one would be alone all their life. Unfortunately, I can't just tell you to accept that you're going to be alone all your life because we can't know for sure that you were one of those people—one of those people destined to be alone all his life—until your life ends. So here's what you need to do between now and death: Keep a roof over your head, put food on your table, get some help with your emotional problems, and take your pleasures where you can. Do things you enjoy—alone, if you must—and you might meet someone along the way. Or not.
And finally, ALONE, if the only intimacy available to you is paid sex with cheap street prostitutes—or, as they prefer to be called, "conveniently located and economically priced sex workers"—that's better than nothing. Remember: Sex workers are part of the solution for you, if not an entirely satisfactory solution, so have a little gratitude and treat them with respect.
I'm a 60-year-old white male, securely retired from a successful professional career. I own a nice home that's paid for. I ought to be happy, right? There's just one catch: I'm still a virgin.
Growing up, I suffered the outcast status to which class brains are routinely assigned. So I fell behind socially. Then I went to an elite, all-male university and fell even further behind. The sexual revolution passed me by. So I retreated into my career. I never learned how to date. I considered paying for sex, but I decided that was the equivalent of admitting that I was a failed human being. Now I spend my days consumed with loneliness, resentment of the past, and a constant longing for a hint of intimacy. Longevity is a family trait, and I expect to live into my 90s. Is there any plausible way to salvage something from this mess?
Stop The Parade, I Want To Get On
You've got a big advantage over ALONE, STPIWTGO, in that you're financially secure. That's something that many women look for in men—women are sex objects, men are success objects, blah blah blah—and you could leverage your professional success to your personal advantage. You wouldn't be the first man who was paying for sex but, since he was careful to launder the money through a relationship, wouldn't have to admit to "paying for sex." So, STPIWTGO, why not sell the house, move to a retirement community where single women outnumber the men, wear nice clothes, and drive a nice car?
But first: See a doctor. Reading your letter, I wondered if you don't suffer from an undiagnosed case of mild-to-moderate autism. There's no cure, but a diagnosis might make you feel like less of a failure, STPIWTGO, and it could give you a better idea of the obstacles you need to overcome to make a personal and romantic connection with a woman between now and death. And I know you're opposed to "paying for it"—no conveniently located and economically priced sex workers for you—but you also might want to consider seeing a shrink who can refer you to a sexual surrogate. Then your insurer will pay for it, STPIWTGO, not you.
1
I can feel for those dude I was almost one of them but thankfully that is not the case any longer. You never know when you will find someone the only trick is do what you love and it may happen. That is how it happened for me it took a long while but it did happen.
2
I feel for those dudes I was almost one of them. Lucky for me I found someone but I was thinking I would be by myself from here on out. The key is do what you love and you may find that person.
3
I've heard of sexual surrogates, but... they're something that insurance (presumably really good insurance) will pay for? Really? That's pretty surprising to me.
4
My husband was one of you guys. Then he met me, re-prioritized his life around being happy instead of putting on a good show for the neighbors, and got himself a regular dose of Prozac. If you keep looking for life you have a better chance of finding it than if you don't look at all. Good luck.
5
I've been paying for sex for over 16 years now and expect to continue paying for it for another 10-20. I would imagine a conveniently located and economically priced professional would be more available and less expensive than the two college tuitions, second car, and daily lattés my current contract requires.
6
"careful to launder the money through a relationship"- i love it!! Sex workers and trophy wives are the exact same thing, except that sex workers are a helluva lot more honest about the whole exchange. You nailed it, Dan! Great advice to all, as per usual ; )
7
I liked his advice to the second guy, although I'm closer to the third guy (24 y.o. and no relationship, no sex, no nothing). What I've come to realize is that if there is any fault, it's with me and no one else. Counting the positives: Good career, great health, I live on my own and do what I want, and I live in a free-ish country. It's not so bad. In fact it's pretty good. And yes, many people have those things and have relationships, but you get the point.
Bitterness, anger, seeking pity, blaming women/society/media blah-blah-blah is not a solution. Developing your own hobies, accepting the cards your dealt (if that's really what this is, and perhaps not I'm not a determinist) and some therapy is the way to go. Either way you have to take ownership of your life.
Good luck.
***
So why am I posting here? Well, I discovered Savage Love several years ago in one of those alternative weeklies and I was hooked.
Bitterness, anger, seeking pity, blaming women/society/media blah-blah-blah is not a solution. Developing your own hobies, accepting the cards your dealt (if that's really what this is, and perhaps not I'm not a determinist) and some therapy is the way to go. Either way you have to take ownership of your life.
Good luck.
***
So why am I posting here? Well, I discovered Savage Love several years ago in one of those alternative weeklies and I was hooked.
8
Can't we hear one of these stories from a woman's point of view?? I am feeling a little too much testosterone within these pleas.
9
I think it's demeaning to label trophy wives as similar to sex surrogates. It's a tempting comparison, but it's often way short of reality. I'm a physician in a big hospital in NYC, and I see older male patients come in all the time with their young trophy wives. The wives often get mistaken for daughters. These women are routinely heartbroken by their husbands' diagnoses, and care for them through protracted illness. So, while their relationships may have been based on an unequal socioeconomic standing, there's often great love there. Women who were in it exclusively for the money would not act the way these women routinely do. More often than not, the reality is different from the stereotype.
Let's not get carried away here. I hate to be a wet blanket, but sex surrogates are not going to spoon-feed you through your dying years or grieve at your funeral.
Tom Waite, MD, PhD
Let's not get carried away here. I hate to be a wet blanket, but sex surrogates are not going to spoon-feed you through your dying years or grieve at your funeral.
Tom Waite, MD, PhD
10
First guy: 1) You don't have to hit the gym, just walk 30 minutes at least five days a week and cut back on red meat, high-fat foods and sodium and I guarantee you'll have better erections within a month. 2) If you don't already, use lube when you jerk off, practice using a light touch, and resist the urge to jerk off every time you feel the urge (try to hold out for a week at a time), it'll not only keep your sensitivity higher, but keep your motivation higher, too.
Second guy: While there's not "someone for everyone," as Dan says, most people - less successful people - fall into someone else's "type." Even if you don't see how anyone could love you, put your best foot forward and don't freak out if you do get a little interest.
Younger versions of third guy: If you're smart enough to be ostracized for being smart, you're smart enough to think yourself out of the social and dating problems. Apply your mind to fixing your social issues and think yourself out of the problem. Seriously. That's what I did, and while I had few friends and zero girlfriends all the way through college, once I realized I was smart enough to figure it out, I started having much better "luck" and now have been with a smart, cute, very talented partner for over four years. We smart guys have a lot of advantages in landing great partners, if we just apply ourselves instead of letting our emotions distract us. Don't be a social underachiever - apply yourself to your social problems like any other problem and you can work it out.
Second guy: While there's not "someone for everyone," as Dan says, most people - less successful people - fall into someone else's "type." Even if you don't see how anyone could love you, put your best foot forward and don't freak out if you do get a little interest.
Younger versions of third guy: If you're smart enough to be ostracized for being smart, you're smart enough to think yourself out of the social and dating problems. Apply your mind to fixing your social issues and think yourself out of the problem. Seriously. That's what I did, and while I had few friends and zero girlfriends all the way through college, once I realized I was smart enough to figure it out, I started having much better "luck" and now have been with a smart, cute, very talented partner for over four years. We smart guys have a lot of advantages in landing great partners, if we just apply ourselves instead of letting our emotions distract us. Don't be a social underachiever - apply yourself to your social problems like any other problem and you can work it out.
11
I wonder what makes Dan think that the last writer might have "an undiagnosed case of mild-to-moderate autism"
Anyone have any ideas?
Anyone have any ideas?
12
@bud people with asperger's (a type of autism) are often very intelligent but lack social skills & the ability to relate to other people
13
Budlight: for one thing, the references to stereotypes (e.g. successful career=happy, class brains=outcast, sexual revolution=everyone has plenty of it, etc.).
Dan: Actually, getting a diagnostic might get him farther than you think. I have an asperger friend who took it as a challenge to fulfill his lust despite his handicap, and it took him a long time, but now shares his semen with more generosity than anyone I know.
Dan: Actually, getting a diagnostic might get him farther than you think. I have an asperger friend who took it as a challenge to fulfill his lust despite his handicap, and it took him a long time, but now shares his semen with more generosity than anyone I know.
14
Get on online dating. Lots of dates, and if one doesn't go well there's always somebody else coming down the pipe.
15
Really brilliant column this week Dan, presented in a powerful way, on a topic that is routinely ignored.
Single men are expected to silently endure loneliness. That's why I have to disagree with #8, since including letters from lonely women would only reinforce the idea that male loneliness is an unacceptable subject per se. Including a few female writers would have also erased Dan's point that male loneliness may last a lifetime, and that it may have a particular set of solutions that are largely available only to mensuch as prostitutes or trophy wives.
And it seems obvious that these men have been reluctant to seek out any help in the past, as none of the writers make any mention of seeking out help from friends or medical professionals. Perhaps Dan is making an underlying point that men commonly don't seek out this sort of help.
Single men are expected to silently endure loneliness. That's why I have to disagree with #8, since including letters from lonely women would only reinforce the idea that male loneliness is an unacceptable subject per se. Including a few female writers would have also erased Dan's point that male loneliness may last a lifetime, and that it may have a particular set of solutions that are largely available only to mensuch as prostitutes or trophy wives.
And it seems obvious that these men have been reluctant to seek out any help in the past, as none of the writers make any mention of seeking out help from friends or medical professionals. Perhaps Dan is making an underlying point that men commonly don't seek out this sort of help.
16
Dan, you are an island of reality in a sea... no, an OCEAN of imagined idealness.
Life is rough for everyone, some more than others, but just keep working at it and perhaps it will suck less than it did before.
Good advice! I applaud you again! Keep going Dan!
Life is rough for everyone, some more than others, but just keep working at it and perhaps it will suck less than it did before.
Good advice! I applaud you again! Keep going Dan!
17
To SOB
I have trouble keeping it up with a condom on. Presumably this is how you have most of your sex. For me the problem disappears completely with a trusted partner and no condom. Be proactive - don't end up like ALONE or STPIWTGO.
I have trouble keeping it up with a condom on. Presumably this is how you have most of your sex. For me the problem disappears completely with a trusted partner and no condom. Be proactive - don't end up like ALONE or STPIWTGO.
19
My fiance was a virgin until this year, and he's 33. After one short lived relationship, he met me, and we're engaged and fucking like rabbits!
There are a lot of women who look for the opportunity to get their hands on a virgin - it gives them a guaranteed way of getting to teach a man from scratch what SHE wants, and not a mash of what previous partners wanted.
Go to the gym, take courses or classes you're interested in, take up personals online if you're busy, and you never know who you'll meet tomorrow!!!
There are a lot of women who look for the opportunity to get their hands on a virgin - it gives them a guaranteed way of getting to teach a man from scratch what SHE wants, and not a mash of what previous partners wanted.
Go to the gym, take courses or classes you're interested in, take up personals online if you're busy, and you never know who you'll meet tomorrow!!!
20
Dear Dan,
As a woman with high functioning autism/Asperger's I would just like to shout out that not all of us with the diagnosis have dismal sex lives. I have currently have both a long term relationship (close to a decade) and an additional lover (seeing each other for a little over a year). My advice for those with AS would be to pick up a couple of books on polyamory (even if you prefer monogamy)or fetish etiquette. Polyamory is definitely more complex and socially different than a "normal" relationship, but that's the beauty of it. The literature on the subject tends to explain things to greater detail, much like an anthropologist, and includes information on techniques to effectively communicate sexual/emotional needs with your partner(s). Best of luck.
As a woman with high functioning autism/Asperger's I would just like to shout out that not all of us with the diagnosis have dismal sex lives. I have currently have both a long term relationship (close to a decade) and an additional lover (seeing each other for a little over a year). My advice for those with AS would be to pick up a couple of books on polyamory (even if you prefer monogamy)or fetish etiquette. Polyamory is definitely more complex and socially different than a "normal" relationship, but that's the beauty of it. The literature on the subject tends to explain things to greater detail, much like an anthropologist, and includes information on techniques to effectively communicate sexual/emotional needs with your partner(s). Best of luck.
22
Long time reader here - 33 year old Indian, sexually inexperienced, mildly socially retarded, definitely gay and still closeted, not doing too bad on the professional front - am terrified I will end up like ALONE.
Thanks Dan for this column and the topic.
Know what the problem is ..trying to fix it. Just hope things fall into place.
Thanks Dan for this column and the topic.
Know what the problem is ..trying to fix it. Just hope things fall into place.
24
WAAAAAAAaaaaaah!
I'm alone and miserable.
Guess what? I'm not alone and miserable. What I wouldn't give for some fluckin peace an quiet and not have to listen to my wife blablablablabla whine whine whine. Count your blessings. Just you wait and see, you'll finally wind up with someone who will break your balls worse than you EVER COULD HAVE imagined.
Trust me buddy the grass is always greener
But no grass means no broken eardrums.
I'm alone and miserable.
Guess what? I'm not alone and miserable. What I wouldn't give for some fluckin peace an quiet and not have to listen to my wife blablablablabla whine whine whine. Count your blessings. Just you wait and see, you'll finally wind up with someone who will break your balls worse than you EVER COULD HAVE imagined.
Trust me buddy the grass is always greener
But no grass means no broken eardrums.
25
@paisinbah
I'm an Indian queer girl! It's hard to come out. When I told my mother about my girlfriend, she freaked out, woed the day her family became and told me i didn't give men a good enough chance. And then two months later, she was telling me that maybe I should be more grateful to my girlfriend like it was no big deal at all. People are oddly surprising. Good for you for trying to fix it. I think for some people, deciding not to be "socially retarded" and just going at it with a ridiculous amount of determination can yield results that will surprise even yourself. And what in the world is better than surprising yourself?
I'm an Indian queer girl! It's hard to come out. When I told my mother about my girlfriend, she freaked out, woed the day her family became and told me i didn't give men a good enough chance. And then two months later, she was telling me that maybe I should be more grateful to my girlfriend like it was no big deal at all. People are oddly surprising. Good for you for trying to fix it. I think for some people, deciding not to be "socially retarded" and just going at it with a ridiculous amount of determination can yield results that will surprise even yourself. And what in the world is better than surprising yourself?
26
@paisinbah
I'm an Indian queer girl! It's hard to come out. When I told my mother about my girlfriend, she freaked out, woed the day her family became and told me i didn't give men a good enough chance. And then two months later, she was telling me that maybe I should be more grateful to my girlfriend like it was no big deal at all. People are oddly surprising. Good for you for trying to fix it. I think for some people, deciding not to be "socially retarded" and just going at it with a ridiculous amount of determination can yield results that will surprise even yourself. And what in the world is better than surprising yourself?
I'm an Indian queer girl! It's hard to come out. When I told my mother about my girlfriend, she freaked out, woed the day her family became and told me i didn't give men a good enough chance. And then two months later, she was telling me that maybe I should be more grateful to my girlfriend like it was no big deal at all. People are oddly surprising. Good for you for trying to fix it. I think for some people, deciding not to be "socially retarded" and just going at it with a ridiculous amount of determination can yield results that will surprise even yourself. And what in the world is better than surprising yourself?
27
@ALONE: I am also a heterosexual boy and have currently never been in a relationship. I've never gotten farther than kissing a girl (once) Those four makeout sessions in your youth prove that some women must find you attractive! You say you are terrified of being rejected, and I'm sure this is true, but at some point you obviously were willing to take the risks and it payed off! I think as you grew older and experienced personal and career disappointments your attitude changed and you became a defeatist who doesn't believe he can be loved and thus will not try with women. You have the qualities in you to attract women, as you showed in your youth (I'm assuming teens or college, the time when there really is very little adult responsibility to manage) But at some point you buried them and stopped trying, consciously or not. If you can bring back out those qualities of your youthful personality that attracted women (work with a shrink on this), you probably won't jump into a sea of your longtime sexual fantasies BUT you certainly can make progress and experience some of the relationships you have been desiring for so long. Don't Give Up! I hope this helps you and anyone else who reads this post
28
Excellent replies as usual, Dan! I continually live for your column. You ROCK!!!
@8: acaggiano: Okay. Here's one from a woman's point of view:
Boy, I can really relate to SOB & ALONE. However, although I have long become celibate it is by my own choice. I survived a really abusive relationship and thankfully since, have gotten on with my life.
Consequently, two prices I have paid for this healing process are experiencing occasional shyness towards men and an inactive sex life. I, too, am a little overweight but am height / weight proportionate. Over the years I have become somewhat "date-challenged", but so what? My life is a lot healthier than it ever was because I no longer am wallowing in the typical American societal bullshit of "OMG---I've GOT to weigh 20 lbs under my healthy weight or-or--GASP!--EEK!--oh, NO!!!!---I'll never get asked out!!!"
I am now in my mid-forties, composing and performing my own music, drive a convertible, have a cat, and feel like the luckiest girl alive.
We all have our blessings to be thankful for, and our own passions. Find out what they are and go for it.
@8: acaggiano: Okay. Here's one from a woman's point of view:
Boy, I can really relate to SOB & ALONE. However, although I have long become celibate it is by my own choice. I survived a really abusive relationship and thankfully since, have gotten on with my life.
Consequently, two prices I have paid for this healing process are experiencing occasional shyness towards men and an inactive sex life. I, too, am a little overweight but am height / weight proportionate. Over the years I have become somewhat "date-challenged", but so what? My life is a lot healthier than it ever was because I no longer am wallowing in the typical American societal bullshit of "OMG---I've GOT to weigh 20 lbs under my healthy weight or-or--GASP!--EEK!--oh, NO!!!!---I'll never get asked out!!!"
I am now in my mid-forties, composing and performing my own music, drive a convertible, have a cat, and feel like the luckiest girl alive.
We all have our blessings to be thankful for, and our own passions. Find out what they are and go for it.
29
I can relate to those 3 cases, but instead of heteresexual change to gay....Next year I am celebrating my 50th birthday and I have decided it will be the last one, I am opting for the easy solution or the coward one but frankly I have lost all hope , i have nothing to expect and I am terrified of a life of loneliness and lovelessness. I could have resorted to paid sex workers but it would have meant my ultimate failure as a human being.I do not regret my decision ...alea jacta est
30
@chaya.
Hey dude... if you're gonna off yourself, you might as well have a few lays with a prostitute first - who cares if it means your ultimate failure. Your suicide will mean that, but at least you'll have gotten your rocks off a few times before the end.
Hey dude... if you're gonna off yourself, you might as well have a few lays with a prostitute first - who cares if it means your ultimate failure. Your suicide will mean that, but at least you'll have gotten your rocks off a few times before the end.
31
@ chaya760
First, it's impossible to regret this type of situation... you can't regret it because you no longer exist! Second, get off your high horse. Life is very hard alone, most relationships are even harder. Most all of the single people that I know are single largely because they would rather have to only consider their own feelings instead of be responsible for the feelings and reactions of their partner. Your example that you are lonely and experience a loveless existence (and will thus end it) shows that you are one of these people.
You're 50 and alone... big deal! Get a cat/dog, a hobby, a social circle, a more demanding job, a THERAPIST, a self-help group that meets several times a week, and a gym membership. The order doesn't matter~
We live in a world with 6.774 billion people! You're alone, lonely, and loveless by your own volition. So get out there and change it! Take the advice you've been given and improve yourself. If you take some really simple steps you could very possible find love. However, even if you don't find someone to share your life it, I guarantee you will have a fuller and more content life well into your 80's.
First, it's impossible to regret this type of situation... you can't regret it because you no longer exist! Second, get off your high horse. Life is very hard alone, most relationships are even harder. Most all of the single people that I know are single largely because they would rather have to only consider their own feelings instead of be responsible for the feelings and reactions of their partner. Your example that you are lonely and experience a loveless existence (and will thus end it) shows that you are one of these people.
You're 50 and alone... big deal! Get a cat/dog, a hobby, a social circle, a more demanding job, a THERAPIST, a self-help group that meets several times a week, and a gym membership. The order doesn't matter~
We live in a world with 6.774 billion people! You're alone, lonely, and loveless by your own volition. So get out there and change it! Take the advice you've been given and improve yourself. If you take some really simple steps you could very possible find love. However, even if you don't find someone to share your life it, I guarantee you will have a fuller and more content life well into your 80's.
32
@24: Fred34, you have my deepest sympathy.
My life was sheer hell until I finally wised up and got divorced. Nobody deserves abuse.
My life was sheer hell until I finally wised up and got divorced. Nobody deserves abuse.
35
Chaya760, don't do it! There are worse things than loneliness. Try being trapped in an unfulfilling, loveless marraige for 56 years. And I do mean trapped - financially, socially, and now physically. Hell on earth. I couldn't be more alone in some ways. But at least you still have the freedom. Also, I don't think paying for sex represents any kind of failure as a human being. That's just malarkey. So go buy yourself a nice hunk and enjoy yourself. Pick up those dice and get into the game. Get some therapy, please. Don't give up, whatever you do.
36
@chaya
I'm slightly less than half your age, but I understand where you're coming from. Give it another chance (therapy, gym, hobbies, etc.). Honestly though, if that doesn't work then you gotta do what you gotta do. No point in suffering needlessly...no drama, no hysterics, no self-pity, no scenes. Just end it.
Good luck.
I'm slightly less than half your age, but I understand where you're coming from. Give it another chance (therapy, gym, hobbies, etc.). Honestly though, if that doesn't work then you gotta do what you gotta do. No point in suffering needlessly...no drama, no hysterics, no self-pity, no scenes. Just end it.
Good luck.
38
Wow! Great column. This is the Dan Savage we all know and love. What a contrast to the "team of drunks" offering contempt to people asking for help column.
40
I like what "Eric" posted, saying that "smart guys" have the advantage of being able to reason their way into the world of relationships and sex. My boyfriend of 5 years fit that same prototype: brainy, shy, non-social, virgin all the way through college. Then we met and he did all the right things to earn my affection, and 5 years later it's still the best I ever had!
41
All these guys need to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover. This book, combined with the great info from Dr. Dan Savage ;-) will provide men with everything they need to, in fact, become men.
42
All these guys need to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover. This book, combined with the great info from Dr. Dan Savage ;-) will give these guys what they need in order to straighten themselves out.
43
@20: And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why polyamory is great in theory but horrible in practice. Polyamory is a magnet for Asperger's types - to the point that the community is full of people with no intuitions about emotions, each trying to apply the same principles from the same few books on each other. It's like a self-help cult with more sex.
44
I am so f-ing sick of hearing married guys whine about how they are paying for sex with "two college tuitions, second car, and daily lattés" and hate "have(ing) to listen to my wife blablablablabla whine whine whine".
These dudes are such typical chauvinistic shitheads that it makes me angry that they even got a woman to marry them in the first place. If you really hate listening to women so much, divorce her so she can find a decent guy who loves her and thinks her thoughts are as important as your own and then pay someone to sleep with you when you want and then leave.
Seriously. It's guys like you that give men a bad reputation. You should be ashamed.
These dudes are such typical chauvinistic shitheads that it makes me angry that they even got a woman to marry them in the first place. If you really hate listening to women so much, divorce her so she can find a decent guy who loves her and thinks her thoughts are as important as your own and then pay someone to sleep with you when you want and then leave.
Seriously. It's guys like you that give men a bad reputation. You should be ashamed.
46
I can totally relate to the theme of the questions this week. I'm one of those idiots that need someone to basically get on top of me to realize they like me. My basic self image is so low, I missed quite a few opportunities with amazing women just because I couldn't read their signals or thought they were only being nice by flirting with me. Only when I reflect back on a given situation do I realize someone has made a pass at me and I missed another opportunity.
I was one of these judgemental types that thought paying for sex was pathetic act until I went on vacation with a few friends. One of these former friends met a girl in a bar. After telling him her sob story, he wined and dined her, giving her hope of taking her out of her situation, just so her could have sex with her. When he returned to the bar the next night and picked someone else up, she was devestated and caused a scene. This caused me to realize: if he had just paid her for her services to begin with, we would have all been spared the scene and the humilation of a human being.
I was one of these judgemental types that thought paying for sex was pathetic act until I went on vacation with a few friends. One of these former friends met a girl in a bar. After telling him her sob story, he wined and dined her, giving her hope of taking her out of her situation, just so her could have sex with her. When he returned to the bar the next night and picked someone else up, she was devestated and caused a scene. This caused me to realize: if he had just paid her for her services to begin with, we would have all been spared the scene and the humilation of a human being.
47
As a guy who can relate to the feeling of being rejected by anyone/everyone, I can only say that this is a very real and very deep feeling. For myself, I found that it had a lot to do with a very painful sense of deficiency, or a strong sense of not being worthwhile. If you feel that way, it's REALLY hard to take chances around relationships, and when you get hurt, you feel REALLY hurt, and then it's easy to just retreat into your shell again and lick your wounds for a long time.
I wasn't able to find a fulfilling relationship until I dealt with this overwhelming sense of deficiency in me. Part of that was just admitting that I had this feeling, and not to ignore it. It's embarrassing to admit. But on the other side, I really believe it's something that we need to look at, examine, process, and understand. There are many spiritual and psychological paths that address this very real condition (I am a member of the Diamond Approach spiritual group). I think most of us are cut off from our own self-worth, but we can't find our real self worth until we thoroughly examine our sense of deficiency, which most of us don't want to do. Get to the heart of the matter! You'll find the relief you so desperately seek.
I wasn't able to find a fulfilling relationship until I dealt with this overwhelming sense of deficiency in me. Part of that was just admitting that I had this feeling, and not to ignore it. It's embarrassing to admit. But on the other side, I really believe it's something that we need to look at, examine, process, and understand. There are many spiritual and psychological paths that address this very real condition (I am a member of the Diamond Approach spiritual group). I think most of us are cut off from our own self-worth, but we can't find our real self worth until we thoroughly examine our sense of deficiency, which most of us don't want to do. Get to the heart of the matter! You'll find the relief you so desperately seek.
48
As a guy who can relate to the feeling of being rejected by anyone/everyone, I can only say that this is a very real and very deep feeling. For myself, I found that it had a lot to do with a very painful sense of deficiency, or a strong sense of not being worthwhile. If you feel that way, it's REALLY hard to take chances around relationships, and when you get hurt, you feel REALLY hurt, and then it's easy to just retreat into your shell again and lick your wounds for a long time.
I wasn't able to find a fulfilling relationship until I dealt with this overwhelming sense of deficiency in me. Part of that was just admitting that I had this feeling, and not to ignore it. It's embarrassing to admit. But on the other side, I really believe it's something that we need to look at, examine, process, and understand. There are many spiritual and psychological paths that address this very real condition (I am a member of the Diamond Approach spiritual group). I think most of us are cut off from our own self-worth, but we can't find our real self worth until we thoroughly examine our sense of deficiency, which most of us don't want to do. Get to the heart of the matter! You'll find the relief you so desperately seek.
I wasn't able to find a fulfilling relationship until I dealt with this overwhelming sense of deficiency in me. Part of that was just admitting that I had this feeling, and not to ignore it. It's embarrassing to admit. But on the other side, I really believe it's something that we need to look at, examine, process, and understand. There are many spiritual and psychological paths that address this very real condition (I am a member of the Diamond Approach spiritual group). I think most of us are cut off from our own self-worth, but we can't find our real self worth until we thoroughly examine our sense of deficiency, which most of us don't want to do. Get to the heart of the matter! You'll find the relief you so desperately seek.
49
@ 11 - I'm thinking Asperger's syndrome. With Asperger's, you're able to function, hold down a job, etc., but relating to other people in an emotionally intimate way is really, really hard. I've known some "Aspies", and they're usually nice people who aren't difficult to be around at all, just quiet, that's all. And when they get to know and trust you, sometimes you can't shut 'em up!
Good luck to all the LW's.
Good luck to all the LW's.
52
@#25 peanut: that's the ticket! you can point up or you can point down. we all point down sometimes, but in the long run it's our choice.
53
I'm a woman over 60. I see three things in the original letters. First, fear leading to isolation, probably coupled with low social skills, perhaps caused by aspergers (aside: I don't think of aspies as deficient, just one facet of the human personality spectrum. Learn about it to learn about yourself. Read books by aspies on how to have a relationship.) Second, and so far not mentioned, is a tendency by inexperienced guys to limit their social goals to a very small pool of young, good looking women. Widen your horizons. Third, meet people with whom you have something in common. On-line dating is a good screen if you are not involved in activities that bring others into your life (and don't date people you work with.) Over the years I have met assorted men like the three letter writers. They might be surprised to find themselves on my list of "I'd date that one if I wasn't already happily involved."
54
Thank you, Dan, from all the ladies who like cock. Especially the part about getting therapy and paying for sex work. Too many times we get involved with men like this who mistake a well-socialized woman's sympathy and understanding with wanting to be their sex therapist. Get your help from professionals, guys, before you advertise yourself as a man looking for a healthy and egalitarian sexual relationship.
Good luck to all these gents. There's always a market for sexually confident, conscientious men who love and respect women. We look forward to seeing you there.
Also, I think "low caliber" translates to: persons whose self-esteem is so low, they are willing to put up with my bullshit. And that's all you'll get until your self-esteem is high enough that you do not view others as essentially better or worse than you. Duh.
Good luck to all these gents. There's always a market for sexually confident, conscientious men who love and respect women. We look forward to seeing you there.
Also, I think "low caliber" translates to: persons whose self-esteem is so low, they are willing to put up with my bullshit. And that's all you'll get until your self-esteem is high enough that you do not view others as essentially better or worse than you. Duh.
55
I don't know, I saw myself as a variation of of those three guys. I'm a great looking guy (in spite of the long curly locks). Built like fabio ... I should have no issues right? Hell if I became a football player, it would most certainly solve my student loan issues.
High School, I was skinny. I was a strong healthy swimmer, but the northeast women didn't really like tall skinny guys in the 90's (not really sure they do now ... ). I had a mediocre to poor home life where I was struggling to make grades and get out of a manipulative and near economically destitute homelife.
Then I became a sceintist ... Then I thought, when I MIGHT have figured it out ...
Surprise? Grad school and the Pacific Northwest killed just about all my romantic ambitions.
I guess, loneliness, it's a disease. I don't really know what the answer is, because I approached my problem like scientist. I bravely exposed myself and did social experiments, because I didn't want to end up like a timid scared shittless 40 plus year old male that Neil Young seems to love to sing about.
But I more or less made some serious concessions. I started screwing around with women that would at least keep my heart alive, even though I deeply resented them inside. Eventually went to therapy. It was hard work, it was a gradual process, and I made some serious concessions. But I learned a lot about myself, and other people. I guess the most valuable thing I learned is how to say no, and that women are human beings too ... and aren't entirely innoscent either. (My mother was pretty harsh man hater in middle school and high school ... not exactly sure why I moved to Eugene OR in hindsight.)
Still, I'm not going to complain. I have my health, I have career options that allow me to have a fullfilling social and romantic life. I will say that moving to Seattle has been such a huge a improvement as far as my dating life goes.
I'm going to burn for proposing this, but I'm a chemist. Mating among humans is a kinetics experiment. The rate determining step (the slow step) has to be women. They are just pickier than men, BUT they are picker on a diverse range of traits. So I find, in reality, there is someone for everyone ... but that someone is stupid hard to meet. Apparently being a larger than life, empathic scientist is too much for most, but after exposing myself to the world ... you realize there are people who appreciate who you are for what you do.
More...
High School, I was skinny. I was a strong healthy swimmer, but the northeast women didn't really like tall skinny guys in the 90's (not really sure they do now ... ). I had a mediocre to poor home life where I was struggling to make grades and get out of a manipulative and near economically destitute homelife.
Then I became a sceintist ... Then I thought, when I MIGHT have figured it out ...
Surprise? Grad school and the Pacific Northwest killed just about all my romantic ambitions.
I guess, loneliness, it's a disease. I don't really know what the answer is, because I approached my problem like scientist. I bravely exposed myself and did social experiments, because I didn't want to end up like a timid scared shittless 40 plus year old male that Neil Young seems to love to sing about.
But I more or less made some serious concessions. I started screwing around with women that would at least keep my heart alive, even though I deeply resented them inside. Eventually went to therapy. It was hard work, it was a gradual process, and I made some serious concessions. But I learned a lot about myself, and other people. I guess the most valuable thing I learned is how to say no, and that women are human beings too ... and aren't entirely innoscent either. (My mother was pretty harsh man hater in middle school and high school ... not exactly sure why I moved to Eugene OR in hindsight.)
Still, I'm not going to complain. I have my health, I have career options that allow me to have a fullfilling social and romantic life. I will say that moving to Seattle has been such a huge a improvement as far as my dating life goes.
I'm going to burn for proposing this, but I'm a chemist. Mating among humans is a kinetics experiment. The rate determining step (the slow step) has to be women. They are just pickier than men, BUT they are picker on a diverse range of traits. So I find, in reality, there is someone for everyone ... but that someone is stupid hard to meet. Apparently being a larger than life, empathic scientist is too much for most, but after exposing myself to the world ... you realize there are people who appreciate who you are for what you do.
57
Wow, I was gonna right in to complain about my problem but after reading all of this I'm just glad to have a job a place to live and food in the fridge. Man or no man.
58
This reminds me of the recent New York Times story on Japanese people incapable of creating real relationships who fall in love with inanimate objects. We just did a post on it: http://tinyurl.com/ox485s
I'm working on a documentary about virginity and write a blog on the subject as well called The American Virgin. Although I cover a lot of issues around virginity, I get an awful lot of email from older virgins talking about their lives.
We've started a weekly column called First Person where they share their experiences on being a virgin or recently losing their virginity. It's our attempt at creating community and dialogue. http://tinyurl.com/n58mfc
There are a lot of people out there who think they're socially hopeless, give up on live and withdraw - and I think we'd all agree it's a real shame. We'd love to hear from you all on our blog! http://tinyurl.com/anhghf
And I'll definitely link to this Savage Love so my readers can get some more perspective on the situation.
I'm working on a documentary about virginity and write a blog on the subject as well called The American Virgin. Although I cover a lot of issues around virginity, I get an awful lot of email from older virgins talking about their lives.
We've started a weekly column called First Person where they share their experiences on being a virgin or recently losing their virginity. It's our attempt at creating community and dialogue. http://tinyurl.com/n58mfc
There are a lot of people out there who think they're socially hopeless, give up on live and withdraw - and I think we'd all agree it's a real shame. We'd love to hear from you all on our blog! http://tinyurl.com/anhghf
And I'll definitely link to this Savage Love so my readers can get some more perspective on the situation.
60
RE your comment to 'A Lifelong Onanist Needs Explanations': "So here's what you need to do between now and death: Keep a roof over your head, put food on your table, get some help with your emotional problems, and take your pleasures where you can. Do things you enjoyalone, if you mustand you might meet someone along the way. Or not."
Dan, I don't read your column, but my husband does. He sent me the link to this week's, and I felt I had to comment, as I've been there, long ago.
Just outta high school, I was alone and lonely during the mid 1970's, but I couldn't bring myself to go out by myself. The incident that finally broke me of this behaviour: being into punk rock very early on, I had tickets to see the Sex Pistols in SF back in Dec 1977. But I sold them cuz I couldn't find someone to go with me! Then they broke up the following month. That did it. Jan 1978 I started going out to punk shows CONSTANTLY, ALONE. In mid-1979 I met my husband. He fell in love with me quickly. I didn't reciprocate, but I enjoyed his company. 5 months of dating, and now we're coming up on our unofficial (being gay, the first time we had sex) 30th anniversary, March 2010.
DON'T GIVE UP! Life is TOO SHORT TO NOT ENJOY IT. To this day I have a gal pal who refuses to go out by herself cuz "people will think I'm a loser". OMG, I just wanna SLAP her! WAKE UP! Until she, and 'A Lifelong Onanist Needs Explanations', change their attitude, they will remain lonely until death. GAME OVER!
TAKE CHARGE! And good luck to you.
Dan, I don't read your column, but my husband does. He sent me the link to this week's, and I felt I had to comment, as I've been there, long ago.
Just outta high school, I was alone and lonely during the mid 1970's, but I couldn't bring myself to go out by myself. The incident that finally broke me of this behaviour: being into punk rock very early on, I had tickets to see the Sex Pistols in SF back in Dec 1977. But I sold them cuz I couldn't find someone to go with me! Then they broke up the following month. That did it. Jan 1978 I started going out to punk shows CONSTANTLY, ALONE. In mid-1979 I met my husband. He fell in love with me quickly. I didn't reciprocate, but I enjoyed his company. 5 months of dating, and now we're coming up on our unofficial (being gay, the first time we had sex) 30th anniversary, March 2010.
DON'T GIVE UP! Life is TOO SHORT TO NOT ENJOY IT. To this day I have a gal pal who refuses to go out by herself cuz "people will think I'm a loser". OMG, I just wanna SLAP her! WAKE UP! Until she, and 'A Lifelong Onanist Needs Explanations', change their attitude, they will remain lonely until death. GAME OVER!
TAKE CHARGE! And good luck to you.
61
RE your comment to 'A Lifelong Onanist Needs Explanations': "So here's what you need to do between now and death: Keep a roof over your head, put food on your table, get some help with your emotional problems, and take your pleasures where you can. Do things you enjoyalone, if you mustand you might meet someone along the way. Or not."
Dan, I don't read your column, but my husband does. He sent me the link to this week's, and I felt I had to comment, as I've been there, long ago.
Just outta high school, I was alone and lonely during the mid 1970's, but I couldn't bring myself to go out by myself. The incident that finally broke me of this behaviour: being into punk rock very early on, I had tickets to see the Sex Pistols in SF back in Dec 1977. But I sold them cuz I couldn't find someone to go with me! Then they broke up the following month. That did it. Jan 1978 I started going out to punk shows CONSTANTLY, ALONE. In mid-1979 I met my husband. He fell in love with me quickly. I didn't reciprocate, but I enjoyed his company. 5 months of dating, and now we're coming up on our unofficial (being gay, the first time we had sex) 30th anniversary, March 2010.
DON'T GIVE UP! Life is TOO SHORT TO NOT ENJOY IT. To this day I have a gal pal who refuses to go out by herself cuz "people will think I'm a loser". OMG, I just wanna SLAP her! WAKE UP! Until she, and 'A Lifelong Onanist Needs Explanations', change their attitude, they will remain lonely until death. GAME OVER!
TAKE CHARGE! And good luck to you.
Dan, I don't read your column, but my husband does. He sent me the link to this week's, and I felt I had to comment, as I've been there, long ago.
Just outta high school, I was alone and lonely during the mid 1970's, but I couldn't bring myself to go out by myself. The incident that finally broke me of this behaviour: being into punk rock very early on, I had tickets to see the Sex Pistols in SF back in Dec 1977. But I sold them cuz I couldn't find someone to go with me! Then they broke up the following month. That did it. Jan 1978 I started going out to punk shows CONSTANTLY, ALONE. In mid-1979 I met my husband. He fell in love with me quickly. I didn't reciprocate, but I enjoyed his company. 5 months of dating, and now we're coming up on our unofficial (being gay, the first time we had sex) 30th anniversary, March 2010.
DON'T GIVE UP! Life is TOO SHORT TO NOT ENJOY IT. To this day I have a gal pal who refuses to go out by herself cuz "people will think I'm a loser". OMG, I just wanna SLAP her! WAKE UP! Until she, and 'A Lifelong Onanist Needs Explanations', change their attitude, they will remain lonely until death. GAME OVER!
TAKE CHARGE! And good luck to you.
62
I'm a bit of a lonely guy myself. I just turned 40. Only one serious relationship. Constant career crisis. Never been good at making friends. I don't get along very well with my loving and supportive stable family. I scored in the 99th percentile on the GRE verbal but can't get my short stories published.
The fact that I've managed to avoid fucking up badly enough to got to prison and/or getting shot by a nervous cop is one of those things that keeps me from completely discounting the possibility of the existence of God.
Everybody who's ever studied psychology has looked at more than one condition in the DSM and thought, "Could that be me?" I first read _An Anthropologist on Mars_ by Oliver Sacks back in the late 90s and thought that. Took another seven years to get that whole Asperger's thing professionally diagnosed.
If you don't know, Asperger's is a form of relatively mild autism characterized by an at least normal IQ, at least normal verbal ability and development, but marked social impairment.
My diagnosis doesn't so much help me feel like less of a failure, as it helps me feel like less of a fuck up. A blind man doesn't fuck up when he bumps into a wall. I don't fuck up when I scare off a pretty girl with my idea of an appropriate joke. My dead blank soulless seeming predator's eyes aren't anyone's fault. I do the best I can with the tools I have.
My diagnosis doesn't wash away any of my myriad failures, but it does explain a lot of them. It also really helps my relationship with my family. And it also helps me cut myself a little slack, making it that little bit easier to get on with the rest of my life.
The fact that I've managed to avoid fucking up badly enough to got to prison and/or getting shot by a nervous cop is one of those things that keeps me from completely discounting the possibility of the existence of God.
Everybody who's ever studied psychology has looked at more than one condition in the DSM and thought, "Could that be me?" I first read _An Anthropologist on Mars_ by Oliver Sacks back in the late 90s and thought that. Took another seven years to get that whole Asperger's thing professionally diagnosed.
If you don't know, Asperger's is a form of relatively mild autism characterized by an at least normal IQ, at least normal verbal ability and development, but marked social impairment.
My diagnosis doesn't so much help me feel like less of a failure, as it helps me feel like less of a fuck up. A blind man doesn't fuck up when he bumps into a wall. I don't fuck up when I scare off a pretty girl with my idea of an appropriate joke. My dead blank soulless seeming predator's eyes aren't anyone's fault. I do the best I can with the tools I have.
My diagnosis doesn't wash away any of my myriad failures, but it does explain a lot of them. It also really helps my relationship with my family. And it also helps me cut myself a little slack, making it that little bit easier to get on with the rest of my life.
63
Former Tri-State @ 55: I must say that the sentiments in you last paragraph are very nicely put (and no need to fear burning).
I have enjoyed many of your comments on Slog, and am glad not only that you are part of the Slog community but that you have chosen to share your experiences and history.
I have enjoyed many of your comments on Slog, and am glad not only that you are part of the Slog community but that you have chosen to share your experiences and history.
66
You know some people actually prefer to be alone and choose to be alone. And there's nothing wrong with that.
68
All three LWs have a common problem: they don't like themselves and don't seem to have people around them who like them. Put the sex concerns aside, and work on becoming a person you like more. Then find people who you have something in common with, some of whom will like you.
After that you'll start to realize that you have something positive to offer the rest of the world. Once that happens, you'll be ready to think about finding a partner.
Every day, you decide whether you want to do something to make your life better... or not.
I love Dan Savage, but I don't think he's going to help these guys much. Paying for sex isn't going to make them any happier, and it's going to reinforce their belief that no women would like them for themselves.
After that you'll start to realize that you have something positive to offer the rest of the world. Once that happens, you'll be ready to think about finding a partner.
Every day, you decide whether you want to do something to make your life better... or not.
I love Dan Savage, but I don't think he's going to help these guys much. Paying for sex isn't going to make them any happier, and it's going to reinforce their belief that no women would like them for themselves.
69
@ 28 - WileEcoyote, with a fantastic outlook on life like yours, someone worth having will come along, at some point, whether you're looking for it/wanting it or not. It'll happen. Your inner peace shines through, I'm sure, and a perceptive person will pick up on that. It's all about attitude.
70
I think that Dan's autism diagnosis is correct. The form that he's talking about it called Asperger's and can often produce high-functioning people who go undiagnosed because of their intelligence. Bill Gates has often been speculated to have Asperger's Syndrome. These people are socially inept, awkward, usually highly intelligent, and skilled at mathematics.
71
I'm 44 and have been widowed and sexless for nearly three years...and I find I enjoy my solitude. I am, however, having a friend of 30+ years move in in September because she needs a place to go, and I have an entire second floor with full bath I'm not using. And it'll be a mutually beneficial relationship. It won't be sexual in any way (I'm gay, she's not) but I do understand the want for human companionship from time to time. And besides being great friends, she's an extremely good cook (I'm not) and would love to cook for both of us.
For those who haven't had a physical relationship, you're actually lucky because you have nothing to mourn. Thankfully I've stopped mourning the loss of a physical relationship, and have lived nicely for almost 3 years without, but I do have to admit some nights after work it'd be nice to come home to a human and not a keyboard (SOME, not MOST).
I guess what I'm saying is, figure out what's positive/good in your life and run with it rather than being sad about what you don't have.
For those who haven't had a physical relationship, you're actually lucky because you have nothing to mourn. Thankfully I've stopped mourning the loss of a physical relationship, and have lived nicely for almost 3 years without, but I do have to admit some nights after work it'd be nice to come home to a human and not a keyboard (SOME, not MOST).
I guess what I'm saying is, figure out what's positive/good in your life and run with it rather than being sad about what you don't have.
72
Uncle Joe, paying for sex might not make them happier, but it might make them MORE functional.
It can just be a way to work the kinks out and potentialy get your confidence back, lose a lot of performance anxiety.
And really, sometimes sex just helps men RELAX and put a little swagger in their step.
Dust off your old weiner and see what it can do.
It's by no means a substitute for emotional connections, but ... having sex can take the edge off potential sexually intense situations.
Unfortunately, it might be the only experience some men (people) get.
Because for most women, there is nothing more unattractive than timidness, lack of confidence and performance anxiety.
A lot of men can look at a timid unconfident woman and think to himself "bait" then set himself up for a relationship with a warped power dynamic. I don't usually see it work the other way around.
As a guy, when you walk into the room and you are unsure of yourself, it's not an impossible climb to make, but you've given yourself one hell of an uphill hike to win a girls favor.
It can just be a way to work the kinks out and potentialy get your confidence back, lose a lot of performance anxiety.
And really, sometimes sex just helps men RELAX and put a little swagger in their step.
Dust off your old weiner and see what it can do.
It's by no means a substitute for emotional connections, but ... having sex can take the edge off potential sexually intense situations.
Unfortunately, it might be the only experience some men (people) get.
Because for most women, there is nothing more unattractive than timidness, lack of confidence and performance anxiety.
A lot of men can look at a timid unconfident woman and think to himself "bait" then set himself up for a relationship with a warped power dynamic. I don't usually see it work the other way around.
As a guy, when you walk into the room and you are unsure of yourself, it's not an impossible climb to make, but you've given yourself one hell of an uphill hike to win a girls favor.
73
One thing I've found that's helped me enormously is joining up with my local 'Pick Up Artist' or 'Seduction' community. Despite what the names and media image suggest, these groups tend to be about self-development and becoming who you want to be, rather than learning cheesy routines or chat-up lines. Just going out there 'in the field' and talking to random women in bars has done wonders for my self esteem and my love life. There's a few people trying to make money, and a fair amount of pyschobabble and flaming on the forums, but if you sort the wheat from the chaff you can get some really good pointers about love and life in general.
I'm similar to a lot of guys posting here. Never had much luck with women until my late twenties. Even now it's not great, but it's a hell of a lot better than before....
There seems to be a whole generation of men who don't know what to do.
I'm similar to a lot of guys posting here. Never had much luck with women until my late twenties. Even now it's not great, but it's a hell of a lot better than before....
There seems to be a whole generation of men who don't know what to do.
74
One thing I've found that's helped me enormously is joining up with my local 'Pick Up Artist' or 'Seduction' community. Despite what the names and media image suggest, these groups tend to be about self-development and becoming who you want to be, rather than learning cheesy routines or chat-up lines. Just going out there 'in the field' and talking to random women in bars has done wonders for my self esteem and my love life. There's a few people trying to make money, and a fair amount of pyschobabble and flaming on the forums, but if you sort the wheat from the chaff you can get some really good pointers about love and life in general.
I'm similar to a lot of guys posting here. Never had much luck with women until my late twenties. Even now it's not great, but it's a hell of a lot better than before....
There seems to be a whole generation of men who don't know what to do.
I'm similar to a lot of guys posting here. Never had much luck with women until my late twenties. Even now it's not great, but it's a hell of a lot better than before....
There seems to be a whole generation of men who don't know what to do.
75
@72: Could you elaborate on the following statement?
A lot of men can look at a timid unconfident woman and think to himself "bait" then set himself up for a relationship with a warped power dynamic. I don't usually see it work the other way around.
Thanks.
A lot of men can look at a timid unconfident woman and think to himself "bait" then set himself up for a relationship with a warped power dynamic. I don't usually see it work the other way around.
Thanks.
76
I'm actually one of these guys. Im 23 and never been in a relationship. Just had 1 night encounters with random girls. I actually believe it has to do with being in the right place at the right time and your overall confidence in yourself.
I actually believed I wasn't attractive and didn't talk to girls for many years for the fear of being rejected. Later on I just cared less about rejection and started talking to girls more and it turned out that a lot think "im hot".
my advice is just be confident (not cocky) in yourself even if your not attractive. and talk to people. the most important part i think is living your life and not being depressed about it.
I actually believed I wasn't attractive and didn't talk to girls for many years for the fear of being rejected. Later on I just cared less about rejection and started talking to girls more and it turned out that a lot think "im hot".
my advice is just be confident (not cocky) in yourself even if your not attractive. and talk to people. the most important part i think is living your life and not being depressed about it.
77
@ chaya760 and many of the others who have posted: Depression is treatable. You don't have to feel so horrible. There are therapists, medications, treatments... you can feel better and move forward in your lives. Get the help you need and know that you don't need to be so alone. You may or may not find someone to love, but you can sure find some folks to like. Good luck to you.
78
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE IDIOTS!!!
JUST PAY!!!!
Jeez, now was that hard?
Honestly, the stupid things people believe...
Of course, I was these same guys myself. Even had someone suggest I had Asperger's (I've got some kind of issues, but the drugs help so far...). But for god's sake, paying for ladies company has been such a relief. No muss, no fuss, just ante up and fun times with fine women. Gotta luv it.
I don't think I've had the self hating thing too too much. I've dumped my two girlfriends. One was psycho and the other was a gold digger. I'm happy to die alone with fond memories of all the beautiful women I've paid to have sex with. Perhaps I am pathetic (not sure, don't care really), but damnit, I've been with goddesses and I don't regret one red cent.
Also, in my experience, relationships are overrated.
Enuf said.
JUST PAY!!!!
Jeez, now was that hard?
Honestly, the stupid things people believe...
Of course, I was these same guys myself. Even had someone suggest I had Asperger's (I've got some kind of issues, but the drugs help so far...). But for god's sake, paying for ladies company has been such a relief. No muss, no fuss, just ante up and fun times with fine women. Gotta luv it.
I don't think I've had the self hating thing too too much. I've dumped my two girlfriends. One was psycho and the other was a gold digger. I'm happy to die alone with fond memories of all the beautiful women I've paid to have sex with. Perhaps I am pathetic (not sure, don't care really), but damnit, I've been with goddesses and I don't regret one red cent.
Also, in my experience, relationships are overrated.
Enuf said.
79
Thanks Dan for your responses, though of course I would have loved to hear some letters from women who had the same experiences and fears. It's refreshing to hear the no bullshit advice response that some people are destined to be alone. It may be hard to hear if you believe that statement applies to you, but it is certainly better than some candy-coated idea that there is somebody out there for everybody. Because that is certainly not true and some people will die alone and unloved.
80
@76: I hate it when people give the 'confident' advice without saying how to 'be confident'. It's obviously a huge plus. But how are you going to 'be' confident when you aren't?
@75: You are absolutely, 100% right. Studying pickup and working on the techniques that the community teaches can boost your confidence and social skills. There is a danger though in studying pickup, and that is, simply put, that pickup can get addictive. If you get too mechanistic about it, you won't manage to find love, but only bang as many people as possible.
@75: You are absolutely, 100% right. Studying pickup and working on the techniques that the community teaches can boost your confidence and social skills. There is a danger though in studying pickup, and that is, simply put, that pickup can get addictive. If you get too mechanistic about it, you won't manage to find love, but only bang as many people as possible.
81
There is a concept called involuntary celibacy, I've also heard protracted virginity. One research paper out there describes a frustrating self-fulfilling prophecy - a person misses key sexual landmarks, gets off track, and starts to assume the reason is something that's wrong with them. Add low self-esteem and social anxiety, and you've got yourself an involuntary virgin.
I'm the straight female example. I'm 33 and I've never been physically involved with anyone in any way. It started with shit that happened when I was a kid (health related). I felt ugly, broken and undeserving of love all my life. For the last 10 years I've worked really hard on healing myself.
But things still haven't happened yet. I am scared to tell people my history, I don't know when would be the right time to bring it up and I'm worried that they'll think I'm a freak. I've always been interested in sex and able to get off, but feel scared and alienated from the real thing.
BTW, generally when I do tell people this, they are really surprised. I am smart, moderately attractive, fit, always had close friends, have developed great social skills and have always held down a job. The realm of sex and relationships is the great difficulty in my life.
I'm the straight female example. I'm 33 and I've never been physically involved with anyone in any way. It started with shit that happened when I was a kid (health related). I felt ugly, broken and undeserving of love all my life. For the last 10 years I've worked really hard on healing myself.
But things still haven't happened yet. I am scared to tell people my history, I don't know when would be the right time to bring it up and I'm worried that they'll think I'm a freak. I've always been interested in sex and able to get off, but feel scared and alienated from the real thing.
BTW, generally when I do tell people this, they are really surprised. I am smart, moderately attractive, fit, always had close friends, have developed great social skills and have always held down a job. The realm of sex and relationships is the great difficulty in my life.
82
@75
Oh crap, I think the heat is warping my brain.
"A lot of men can look at a timid unconfident woman and think to himself "bait" then set himself up for a relationship with a warped power dynamic. I don't usually see it work the other way around."
I think confidence and self empowerment is good for human beings in general. I think it most certainly effects the QUALITY of your relationships.
I just feel that also ... a lot of unconfident yet attractive women can easily find themselves in a relationship ... but they are rarely constructive. I can think of several of my female friends who obviously don't think too highly of themselves settling for relationships where they are perpetually taken advantage of. At the same time I rarely see a guy who is unconfident in a relationship period, good or bad, regardless how hot he is.
I know it is a gross and overly descriptive generalization. But If the figure of merit is getting laid (regardless of quality), confidence is key for men but not necessarily for women.
Oh crap, I think the heat is warping my brain.
"A lot of men can look at a timid unconfident woman and think to himself "bait" then set himself up for a relationship with a warped power dynamic. I don't usually see it work the other way around."
I think confidence and self empowerment is good for human beings in general. I think it most certainly effects the QUALITY of your relationships.
I just feel that also ... a lot of unconfident yet attractive women can easily find themselves in a relationship ... but they are rarely constructive. I can think of several of my female friends who obviously don't think too highly of themselves settling for relationships where they are perpetually taken advantage of. At the same time I rarely see a guy who is unconfident in a relationship period, good or bad, regardless how hot he is.
I know it is a gross and overly descriptive generalization. But If the figure of merit is getting laid (regardless of quality), confidence is key for men but not necessarily for women.
83
token grl,
I have been guilty of this a couple of times. I was intimidated by a girls lack of experience because I was afraid I wouldn't live up to their expectations, or if it didn't work out ... I would have done irreparable damage.
In both instances, I lost out. I'm not really sure if I have regrets about this, because the first girl lost her virginity to a total douche, who I thought was my friend, and then she FELT THE NEED TO CONFIDE TO ME ABOUT IT. When it was in the realm of crap I didn't want to know.
The second time, well ... it didn't help that I almost hooked up with her friend ... (AlMOST being the key word). But she is actually dating a guy I really like who was willing to take a chance on her even though she lacked experience.
It was also understood that the guy was going to be leaving town at the end of Fall, so super long term expectations weren't super high.
So maybe that's the key ... find yourself a confident, independent guy who would be more than happy to be a gentlemen to you, but don't spook him high expectations.
I have been guilty of this a couple of times. I was intimidated by a girls lack of experience because I was afraid I wouldn't live up to their expectations, or if it didn't work out ... I would have done irreparable damage.
In both instances, I lost out. I'm not really sure if I have regrets about this, because the first girl lost her virginity to a total douche, who I thought was my friend, and then she FELT THE NEED TO CONFIDE TO ME ABOUT IT. When it was in the realm of crap I didn't want to know.
The second time, well ... it didn't help that I almost hooked up with her friend ... (AlMOST being the key word). But she is actually dating a guy I really like who was willing to take a chance on her even though she lacked experience.
It was also understood that the guy was going to be leaving town at the end of Fall, so super long term expectations weren't super high.
So maybe that's the key ... find yourself a confident, independent guy who would be more than happy to be a gentlemen to you, but don't spook him high expectations.
84
Dan, please try not to tell people who are feeling down about who they are to lose weight. It's that kind of thinking that leads SOB to think his weight is part of his problem.
85
I'm a sex worker and have seen clients that are similar to all of the men in the letters. I agree that if they can get rid of the idea that they are "resorting" to a sex worker it may help!
I have had clients I've helped educate. At times I've sat there like a therapist and really just told them it's all okay too. And I like to think I've bought joy and companionship to people who otherwise may not have found it.
The trick is to find the right sex worker for your needs and keep shopping around until you do! There is no shame in it.
I have had clients I've helped educate. At times I've sat there like a therapist and really just told them it's all okay too. And I like to think I've bought joy and companionship to people who otherwise may not have found it.
The trick is to find the right sex worker for your needs and keep shopping around until you do! There is no shame in it.
86
I feel it's important to add that these guys could make the profound personal changes necessary to have a relationship...and the first relationship each of them has is probably going to suck. That's because each of them is a really bad relationship prospect right now. Ergo, anyone with good relationship sense will avoid them...(no offense to Selina exceptions do occur) and their first relationship will probably be with people whose relationship skills are in the same league of awful truly, horribly awful as their own.
That doesn't mean don't try it, it means things are probably going to get worse (or a different kind of bad) before they get better.
That doesn't mean don't try it, it means things are probably going to get worse (or a different kind of bad) before they get better.
87
Thanks, former tri-state. My expectations aren't that high, I don't think guys need to worry about that from many older virgins. At this point I'm just dying for a little emotional companionship and physical stimulation. I think you are right on the other point - I worry about coming across as damaged and damageable goods. As Dan says, I'm trying to figure out how to deliver the news in a way that makes it a cupcake instead of leukemia. Suggestions are most welcome.
88
Jesus, what a bunch of blather.
The Philippines or Thailand are no more than 18 hours from anywhere in America. For a $600 plane ticket you can have more beaver than you have ever seen before in your life.
Make up 40 years in 40 days.
Go on, why not?
The Philippines or Thailand are no more than 18 hours from anywhere in America. For a $600 plane ticket you can have more beaver than you have ever seen before in your life.
Make up 40 years in 40 days.
Go on, why not?
89
This just goes to show how fucked up it is that our society puts soooo much weight on love and relationships. It's bullshit. I've met many a celibate (Buddhist) monk who radiated more happiness than anyone else I've been around. Gettin' some or not does not have to have any bearing on living a good life. Feeling like there is something wrong with you WILL hold you back, guaranteed. Moreover, I think that love, relationships, sex, lust, etc. may cause as much suffering in the world as war. That may sound like a stretch, but it is closer than you think. I have, at times, felt like those guys. I have, also, at times been in love and have had some fucking MIND blowing sex. I am perfectly capable of being miserable or happy in either situation. Three words: LET IT GO.
90
First guy. Your problem is mainly sensitivity. You can cum when getting blow job, hand job or masterbate, but vaginal sex is not as intense of a sensation. Its a fact. To solve this: 1. Masterbate way less. Its almost impossible to jerk off less, but you have to do this. It takes a while for this to take effect, think about 1 month. Then you'll be in the clear. Plus, no guy can do it everyday. 2. Also, just chill regarding sex. Think about your lady, how cool she is.
Lastly, realize that this happens to every guy. Deal with it and then move on.
Lastly, realize that this happens to every guy. Deal with it and then move on.
91
token grl
I think the 33 year old virgin thing is inconsequential. I mean, from my perspective, it's YOUR virginity and not his.
I think it should be a moment for you and a time for YOUR introspection. It's your self exploration and the ability to see what you have to offer (and to see what you like). Because up until this point you had no clue. It was all in your mind, fantasy, and make believe. So I think the virginity thing? Blah so you're planning on losing it, great ... awesome, and if it turns into a magical moment, uber bonus points to you.
I just think maybe it might take the load off a bit if you looked at your first sexual encounter a little more selfishly ...
But really, if you don't have a psycho x-bf willing to chase anyone who looks at you the wrong way, if you don't have kids you have to take to school the next day, and if you aren't demanding a ring to be placed on your finger in the near future, and you can provide reassurance that most sane guys are willing to feel safe with.
And if you are reasonably attractive, just go out into the world ... you'll be fine.
I think the 33 year old virgin thing is inconsequential. I mean, from my perspective, it's YOUR virginity and not his.
I think it should be a moment for you and a time for YOUR introspection. It's your self exploration and the ability to see what you have to offer (and to see what you like). Because up until this point you had no clue. It was all in your mind, fantasy, and make believe. So I think the virginity thing? Blah so you're planning on losing it, great ... awesome, and if it turns into a magical moment, uber bonus points to you.
I just think maybe it might take the load off a bit if you looked at your first sexual encounter a little more selfishly ...
But really, if you don't have a psycho x-bf willing to chase anyone who looks at you the wrong way, if you don't have kids you have to take to school the next day, and if you aren't demanding a ring to be placed on your finger in the near future, and you can provide reassurance that most sane guys are willing to feel safe with.
And if you are reasonably attractive, just go out into the world ... you'll be fine.
92
I love "men are success objects." Is that revelation an original one, Dan? You should copyright it.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that I'm a well-hung man...and that it's a problem sometimes.
Feel sorry for me?
I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that I'm a well-hung man...and that it's a problem sometimes.
Feel sorry for me?
93
@80: Right fucking on.
How can someone confidently say "Yeah, I'm a virgin"? How do you make yourself sound confident while you say "I live on my parents' money and live in a filthy hell-hole" or while thinking "I HAVE TO GET WITH THIS GIRL TO END THE UNENDABLE CYCLE OF LONELINESS I'VE BEEN LIVING WITH MY WHOLE LIFE!!!"
How does "just have confidence" come into play there, exactly?
How can someone confidently say "Yeah, I'm a virgin"? How do you make yourself sound confident while you say "I live on my parents' money and live in a filthy hell-hole" or while thinking "I HAVE TO GET WITH THIS GIRL TO END THE UNENDABLE CYCLE OF LONELINESS I'VE BEEN LIVING WITH MY WHOLE LIFE!!!"
How does "just have confidence" come into play there, exactly?
94
Why does the side bar list "Things I've learned from Women who Dumped me" under "Books by Dan Savage"?
95
There is actually a term for this sort of thing: Incel...it is short for Involuntary Celibacy. There is a forum online with several members. I'd suggest people with this problem go there for some support.
96
chaya760,
Hugs. You sound so sad and depressed, I hope you are getting some help. Counseling and antidepressants sounds like a good start. Can you find one thing that you have always wanted to try and give it a go? Love yourself. Perhaps there is a sex therapist that can help you as well, not just physically but socially? I think you owe it to yourself to make every effort to find a better and happier you.
Hugs. You sound so sad and depressed, I hope you are getting some help. Counseling and antidepressants sounds like a good start. Can you find one thing that you have always wanted to try and give it a go? Love yourself. Perhaps there is a sex therapist that can help you as well, not just physically but socially? I think you owe it to yourself to make every effort to find a better and happier you.
97
Utimately, I think more folks, especially some of those who wrote to Dan, need to understand that it's not fundamentally wrong to have sexual urges and NOT act on them. Hell, I'm a 30 year old virgin, not overweight, athletic, and a funny guy. But I don't date. Why? Because there's more important things to life than getting laid. Take care of your problems first, then worry about involving someone else. If that never happens, so be it.
98
Here is one for a start -
One activity that women love and way too few men participate in is dancing. Often completely overlooked.
I kind of liked it (Latin dances) but got a late start and met my wife that way in my early 30s. Man, had I only known earlier... a guy who is a decent dancer (easy to achieve) should have no problem to get a date.
It's fun, healthy, teaches manners, gives great opportunities to dress up, great music, one can spend a whole night together with as much closeness or distance as you like, you don't have to show off, just make the woman look good on the dance floor and after all, some dances are basically pure sex on the dance floor - not that this is the main reason, but I have seen and done beautifully intimate dances.
We are making sure our children will be exposed to it and perceive it as something essential to life.
Sign up for some classes and on the weekends go out as a group with the people in your class to practice in some clubs. Don't be afraid of how you look out there, everyone sucked at the beginning. And there always will be someone who is so much better than you, but that's not why most people love it.
And don't dismiss it as something for gays or metrosexuals only - BIG mistake. Cost me many opportunities.
One activity that women love and way too few men participate in is dancing. Often completely overlooked.
I kind of liked it (Latin dances) but got a late start and met my wife that way in my early 30s. Man, had I only known earlier... a guy who is a decent dancer (easy to achieve) should have no problem to get a date.
It's fun, healthy, teaches manners, gives great opportunities to dress up, great music, one can spend a whole night together with as much closeness or distance as you like, you don't have to show off, just make the woman look good on the dance floor and after all, some dances are basically pure sex on the dance floor - not that this is the main reason, but I have seen and done beautifully intimate dances.
We are making sure our children will be exposed to it and perceive it as something essential to life.
Sign up for some classes and on the weekends go out as a group with the people in your class to practice in some clubs. Don't be afraid of how you look out there, everyone sucked at the beginning. And there always will be someone who is so much better than you, but that's not why most people love it.
And don't dismiss it as something for gays or metrosexuals only - BIG mistake. Cost me many opportunities.
99
If you are unable to form a relationship with anyone you find attractive, then you need to fucking lower your standards. Go after the fatties or the uglies. Quit judging woman based solely on their looks, and look a little further.
I have no sympathy for people with standards higher than they can reasonably expect to attain. But if 40+ years of loneliness haven't taught you that there's a HELL of a lot more than a pretty face behind a wonderful woman, you deserve to die sexless.
My mom wonders all the time why she can't find a guy to save her life. It's because she's 250 pounds, 47 years old, and she's looking for Fabio. What the fuck is wrong with this picture?
I have no sympathy for people with standards higher than they can reasonably expect to attain. But if 40+ years of loneliness haven't taught you that there's a HELL of a lot more than a pretty face behind a wonderful woman, you deserve to die sexless.
My mom wonders all the time why she can't find a guy to save her life. It's because she's 250 pounds, 47 years old, and she's looking for Fabio. What the fuck is wrong with this picture?
100
#29 Chaya 760
I'm sorry you are set on committing suicide. Could you do some people a favor? Donate your blood, as often as you can. Do pheresis, where you donate platelets -- they go right into someone else, never frozen. No psych test, either, so they'll take you. Then you save some lives while you're thinking of killing yourself. If that works, can you then donate part of your liver? It probably won't kill you, you donate half and your half grows back and the other half saves someone. You're looking at two months of rehab, and somehow you'd have to pass a psych test, but you seem smart enough to fake them out. If all that works, maybe donate a kidney? I don't know if you can do the liver and the kidney, but it's worth a shot. If you can save some lives, maybe it will save your own, but if not, at least you'll go out in style. Wouldn't that be amazing?
Chaya, huh? It means 'animal' in Hebrew, but it sounds like 'life' -- ever notice that?
I'm sorry you are set on committing suicide. Could you do some people a favor? Donate your blood, as often as you can. Do pheresis, where you donate platelets -- they go right into someone else, never frozen. No psych test, either, so they'll take you. Then you save some lives while you're thinking of killing yourself. If that works, can you then donate part of your liver? It probably won't kill you, you donate half and your half grows back and the other half saves someone. You're looking at two months of rehab, and somehow you'd have to pass a psych test, but you seem smart enough to fake them out. If all that works, maybe donate a kidney? I don't know if you can do the liver and the kidney, but it's worth a shot. If you can save some lives, maybe it will save your own, but if not, at least you'll go out in style. Wouldn't that be amazing?
Chaya, huh? It means 'animal' in Hebrew, but it sounds like 'life' -- ever notice that?
101
@96
Thank you.But I am too desperate and without hope at the present to take any decision rather than this one
Thank you.But I am too desperate and without hope at the present to take any decision rather than this one
102
@100
I hate to contradict you, but my family name is the arab declination of the Isaiah the prophet.
I hate to contradict you, but my family name is the arab declination of the Isaiah the prophet.
103
token grl ...
I guess ... for some reason i feel for you, and I just want to take the anxiety away.
If I said that if it sucks the first time, there is always round 2, and I can say if the first guy was a total douche, there is always the second. It doesn't have to be weighted on that one particular moment. If your first moment is something magical. Awesome! Congratulations, you are perhaps one of the minority gifted people they write evening dramas about ....
but if it's not, big fricken whoop. You have the rest of your life to create romantic memories, and I'm willing to bet that the best romantic memmories for the vast majority of people are NOT from the time they lost their virginity.
It's going to be ok.
I guess ... for some reason i feel for you, and I just want to take the anxiety away.
If I said that if it sucks the first time, there is always round 2, and I can say if the first guy was a total douche, there is always the second. It doesn't have to be weighted on that one particular moment. If your first moment is something magical. Awesome! Congratulations, you are perhaps one of the minority gifted people they write evening dramas about ....
but if it's not, big fricken whoop. You have the rest of your life to create romantic memories, and I'm willing to bet that the best romantic memmories for the vast majority of people are NOT from the time they lost their virginity.
It's going to be ok.
105
After reading all the comments, I went back and re-read the original letters. None of these guys want a girlfriend or wife. They're not bemoaning the lack of a life partner. They just want to be sexually desirable and get laid a lot without having to work for it.
Either get therapy for your issues or start treating your conveniently located sex worker with more respect. You don't have to send her flowers for Valentine's Day and she'll go away as soon as you want to play World of Warcraft for 15 hours.
Either get therapy for your issues or start treating your conveniently located sex worker with more respect. You don't have to send her flowers for Valentine's Day and she'll go away as soon as you want to play World of Warcraft for 15 hours.
109
@Chaya 760:
Your posts really broke my heart. I don't fully know the circumstances of your personal situation, but please be comforted in that you are not alone. There is help available, especially if you live in an urban environment. I was once feeling like you are now.
I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
Your posts really broke my heart. I don't fully know the circumstances of your personal situation, but please be comforted in that you are not alone. There is help available, especially if you live in an urban environment. I was once feeling like you are now.
I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
110
@99: nickyyyyyyy:
And will YOU be as open-minded about finding women who aren't--GASP!---totally buff hottie when YOU turn 47?
If you aren't, then what the fuck's wrong with your picture?
And will YOU be as open-minded about finding women who aren't--GASP!---totally buff hottie when YOU turn 47?
If you aren't, then what the fuck's wrong with your picture?
117
@89 -- choosing to be celibate is much different than feeling it is foist upon you. Choosing celibacy is empowering. Thinking you are a loser is clearly unempowering.
I'm glad Dan gave advice and not belittlement. Years ago, I remember sitting a table with a group of friends when the conversation turned to what to do with those annoying people who come onto you, but you don't want to be near them. I was inwardly embarrased to realized this had NEVER happened to me like it had with everyone else there.
Up to that point since I hadn't been the Rejector (only the Rejectee) before, I hadn't considered what the Rejector might be thinking. It sounds naive, but I suddenly realized that some people have it much easier than others from the very beginning (looks, charisma, charm) ------ and that would not be me.
I'm in my fifties now and still haven't had the opportunity to figure out what to do with a suitor who doesn't interest me. Some people are "lucky" that way. Some of us just never get an invitation to the party, and so watch from the outside wondering how to get in.....
I'm glad Dan gave advice and not belittlement. Years ago, I remember sitting a table with a group of friends when the conversation turned to what to do with those annoying people who come onto you, but you don't want to be near them. I was inwardly embarrased to realized this had NEVER happened to me like it had with everyone else there.
Up to that point since I hadn't been the Rejector (only the Rejectee) before, I hadn't considered what the Rejector might be thinking. It sounds naive, but I suddenly realized that some people have it much easier than others from the very beginning (looks, charisma, charm) ------ and that would not be me.
I'm in my fifties now and still haven't had the opportunity to figure out what to do with a suitor who doesn't interest me. Some people are "lucky" that way. Some of us just never get an invitation to the party, and so watch from the outside wondering how to get in.....
118
@70 You are wrong: People with AS are not necessarily skilled at mathematics, no more so than the general population. Asperger's is characterised by impairment in social interaction, restricted and repetitive behaviours and interests and no delay in language development. Skilled at maths is most definitely not part of the diagnostic criteria and I find it bothersome that people always assume this as it is not true. I would say those with AS are as diverse as neurotypicals but like neurotypicals have a few features that they have in common.
@20 Yes, not all people with Asperger's have bad sex lives (I have AS and my sex life is awesome ;)) but many do because of the social interaction problems and difficulty in communication. It is possible to overcome this to some degree so good advice to read up on literature about how to relate in relationships.
Overall, not everyone who has social difficulties has AS (though everyone who has AS has social impairment to some degree, it is one of its defining features) but if one is having a lot of trouble relating to others, it is worth this being investigated as you can be advised on how to relate better to others if you want. Most people find it easy to relate to others so if it is a struggle it is worth getting support from a professional if you do want to be in a relationship.
@20 Yes, not all people with Asperger's have bad sex lives (I have AS and my sex life is awesome ;)) but many do because of the social interaction problems and difficulty in communication. It is possible to overcome this to some degree so good advice to read up on literature about how to relate in relationships.
Overall, not everyone who has social difficulties has AS (though everyone who has AS has social impairment to some degree, it is one of its defining features) but if one is having a lot of trouble relating to others, it is worth this being investigated as you can be advised on how to relate better to others if you want. Most people find it easy to relate to others so if it is a struggle it is worth getting support from a professional if you do want to be in a relationship.
120
Kudos to you Dan for encouraging respect for "conveniently located and economically priced sex workers".
121
Kudos to you Dan for encouraging respect for "conveniently located and economically priced sex workers".
123
Dan, thanks for pointing out that men who denigrate the women who are kind enough to sleep with them are demonstrating their own self-hatred.
124
re: SOB and anyone else for whom the shoe fits
Everybody needs to get over the idea that if you're overweight, you're ugly and no one will want you. Trust me: I've always been overweight, but I've dated a lot, had two marriages (one of 8 years, one of 16 and counting), and (not proud of it) a couple of affairs. The people I've been with have all been great, intelligent, successful, attractive folks, not freaky losers, so it's not as if I ever had to settle.
If you believe in yourself and carry yourself confidently, your weight isn't a deal breaker. Work on feeling better about yourself, regardless of your appearance: You're a lot more than a clothing size. Exercise and a good diet can't hurt, in any case, but it's secondary to your belief in your worth. You're no better than anyone else, but you're no worse, either.
However, you, too, are going to have to be open to the worth of other people beyond their appearance. Presumably if you give yourself some credit, you'll be less likely to run down any woman who would be with you (see Groucho's self-deprecating joke about the country club); badly put, you have to love yourself in order to want someone who wants you.
Best of luck, all of you guys.
Everybody needs to get over the idea that if you're overweight, you're ugly and no one will want you. Trust me: I've always been overweight, but I've dated a lot, had two marriages (one of 8 years, one of 16 and counting), and (not proud of it) a couple of affairs. The people I've been with have all been great, intelligent, successful, attractive folks, not freaky losers, so it's not as if I ever had to settle.
If you believe in yourself and carry yourself confidently, your weight isn't a deal breaker. Work on feeling better about yourself, regardless of your appearance: You're a lot more than a clothing size. Exercise and a good diet can't hurt, in any case, but it's secondary to your belief in your worth. You're no better than anyone else, but you're no worse, either.
However, you, too, are going to have to be open to the worth of other people beyond their appearance. Presumably if you give yourself some credit, you'll be less likely to run down any woman who would be with you (see Groucho's self-deprecating joke about the country club); badly put, you have to love yourself in order to want someone who wants you.
Best of luck, all of you guys.
125
re: SOB and anyone else for whom the shoe fits
Everybody needs to get over the idea that if you're overweight, you're ugly and no one will want you. Trust me: I've always been overweight, but I've dated a lot, had two marriages (one of 8 years, one of 16 and counting), and (not proud of it) a couple of affairs. The people I've been with have all been great, intelligent, successful, attractive folks, not freaky losers, so it's not as if I ever had to settle.
If you believe in yourself and carry yourself confidently, your weight isn't a deal breaker. Work on feeling better about yourself, regardless of your appearance: You're a lot more than a clothing size. Exercise and a good diet can't hurt, in any case, but it's secondary to your belief in your worth. You're no better than anyone else, but you're no worse, either.
However, you, too, are going to have to be open to the worth of other people beyond their appearance. Presumably if you give yourself some credit, you'll be less likely to run down any woman who would be with you (see Groucho's self-deprecating joke about the country club); badly put, you have to love yourself in order to want someone who wants you.
Best of luck, all of you guys.
Everybody needs to get over the idea that if you're overweight, you're ugly and no one will want you. Trust me: I've always been overweight, but I've dated a lot, had two marriages (one of 8 years, one of 16 and counting), and (not proud of it) a couple of affairs. The people I've been with have all been great, intelligent, successful, attractive folks, not freaky losers, so it's not as if I ever had to settle.
If you believe in yourself and carry yourself confidently, your weight isn't a deal breaker. Work on feeling better about yourself, regardless of your appearance: You're a lot more than a clothing size. Exercise and a good diet can't hurt, in any case, but it's secondary to your belief in your worth. You're no better than anyone else, but you're no worse, either.
However, you, too, are going to have to be open to the worth of other people beyond their appearance. Presumably if you give yourself some credit, you'll be less likely to run down any woman who would be with you (see Groucho's self-deprecating joke about the country club); badly put, you have to love yourself in order to want someone who wants you.
Best of luck, all of you guys.
126
Let's drop the bullshit.
It doesn't matter if you love yourself, or if you are the person you want to be as it should be abundantly obvious that many people who hate themselves and aren't what they want to be are still in a relationship. Coincidentally, many of these people are quite hot, kinky, have low standards or all three items.
Liking yourself will help to maintain a relationship - it won't necessarily set one up.
Finding a relationship is a result of 1) Being attractive enough - this doesn't mean 'very attractive' it means 'not ugly enough to horrify people' 2) Being realistic about what you'll accept 3) Having hobbies and topics of conversation that are interesting to a sufficiently large number of partners 4) Giving the impression of being good at sex 5) Looking for people, preferably in real life, again, and again, and again. 6) Pandering to whatever bullshit standards your partner has from clothes, through to appearance, through to crap fashionable talk, their double standards as to how you should pander to their whims and realising you probably have some of those bullshit standards yourself..
The most important of these items is 5). Next up is 4). Then 1). Then 4) again. A bit of 6) then 4) again, then 6) again, then 3). If you're seen to be a good catch, more people will perceive you as a good catch.
4) can be dealt with by sex with people you like enough or sex workers. Once you can manage to give people a good fucking they're more likely to stay around - regardless that people say it doesn't matter - it does. Some people will stick around and try a couple of times. Most won't.
Once you achieve The Task of Good Fucking, you are officially noted as 'really funny' or 'interesting', a good cook, or whatever it takes to obscure the fact the main reason is that you're a good fuck with enough social and relationship skills not to drive the other person mad.
Of course, I do somewhat agree with the point of one of the posters above that the writers aren't trying hard enough. It's true that there is a difference between not trying hard enough at dating, and not trying hard enough at life. The later will bring you fulfilment but perhaps not complete happiness, the former (if you find someone) will bring you happiness but not fulfilment. If you have time to be lonely or frustrated a sizeable proportion of the time, you are not doing enough with life, full stop.
Also note that 'confidence' is a misnomer. What it usually actually means is 'sexual dominance' and 'attitude'. People are looking for someone that makes them feel a certain way, either by pushing their sexual buttons or their mind. It's very possible to be confident, but not to meet the bullshit 'confident' standard which means 'I saw them and they stood out from everyone else in terms of pushing my buttons' or 'they approach life in a specific way'. It absolutely doesn't mean they can handle any new situation that's thrown at them with aplomb, are good in adversity and genuinely are comfortable in themselves. That's genuine confidence, and it isn't what partners are looking for until very late in a relationship.
More...
It doesn't matter if you love yourself, or if you are the person you want to be as it should be abundantly obvious that many people who hate themselves and aren't what they want to be are still in a relationship. Coincidentally, many of these people are quite hot, kinky, have low standards or all three items.
Liking yourself will help to maintain a relationship - it won't necessarily set one up.
Finding a relationship is a result of 1) Being attractive enough - this doesn't mean 'very attractive' it means 'not ugly enough to horrify people' 2) Being realistic about what you'll accept 3) Having hobbies and topics of conversation that are interesting to a sufficiently large number of partners 4) Giving the impression of being good at sex 5) Looking for people, preferably in real life, again, and again, and again. 6) Pandering to whatever bullshit standards your partner has from clothes, through to appearance, through to crap fashionable talk, their double standards as to how you should pander to their whims and realising you probably have some of those bullshit standards yourself..
The most important of these items is 5). Next up is 4). Then 1). Then 4) again. A bit of 6) then 4) again, then 6) again, then 3). If you're seen to be a good catch, more people will perceive you as a good catch.
4) can be dealt with by sex with people you like enough or sex workers. Once you can manage to give people a good fucking they're more likely to stay around - regardless that people say it doesn't matter - it does. Some people will stick around and try a couple of times. Most won't.
Once you achieve The Task of Good Fucking, you are officially noted as 'really funny' or 'interesting', a good cook, or whatever it takes to obscure the fact the main reason is that you're a good fuck with enough social and relationship skills not to drive the other person mad.
Of course, I do somewhat agree with the point of one of the posters above that the writers aren't trying hard enough. It's true that there is a difference between not trying hard enough at dating, and not trying hard enough at life. The later will bring you fulfilment but perhaps not complete happiness, the former (if you find someone) will bring you happiness but not fulfilment. If you have time to be lonely or frustrated a sizeable proportion of the time, you are not doing enough with life, full stop.
Also note that 'confidence' is a misnomer. What it usually actually means is 'sexual dominance' and 'attitude'. People are looking for someone that makes them feel a certain way, either by pushing their sexual buttons or their mind. It's very possible to be confident, but not to meet the bullshit 'confident' standard which means 'I saw them and they stood out from everyone else in terms of pushing my buttons' or 'they approach life in a specific way'. It absolutely doesn't mean they can handle any new situation that's thrown at them with aplomb, are good in adversity and genuinely are comfortable in themselves. That's genuine confidence, and it isn't what partners are looking for until very late in a relationship.
127
Learn to knit (or weave). Really! Women will fall all over you because of the novelty of having a man in the knitting store (don't be a jerk). And you will have a sweater at the end of it. I am a single woman who would dearly love to find someone who shares my interests...
128
One minor thought in relation to the first letter: he states he's "generally unable to attract women I'm actually interested in", which he attributes at least partially to being overweight. I can't help but wonder how high he's set his standards, and if they're realistic in any way. I don't know that this is the case here, but my big pet peeve is people who set their standards for dating far above their standards for maintaining themselves. There are exceptions, but people generally tend to be attracted to people within a few degrees of their own attractiveness. Sure, there are plenty of factors that determine whether the couple actually stays together, but a smart person does an honest self-assessment and scales their expectations accordingly. And how can you blame/curse attractive people for not dating you, when you're only attracted to them for their outward appearance? Are you any less shallow than they are? Maybe the moderately attractive barista with the extra 30 pounds is your soulmate, but how are you gonna know if you never even talk to her?
129
Wow. This is the saddest column I've read. 1) Therapy is the easy answer, but the best advice is for them to get out of their hole! Fellas: GET OUT OF THE COUNTRY. Travel. See stuff. Get out of your head. Even the dude just getting by - catch the bus over to Mexico. You just may actually feel excitement for once (and meet somebody too).
130
Everyone has something to say this week! I'm a therapist and I'd like to weight in, too. All three of the above sound as if they would benefit from therapy that focused on self-esteem, realistic expectations and practical problem solving. By realistic expectations, I mean understanding that not every woman expects you to be a sexual superstar, that virginity is not a defect or a curse but a neutral condition, and that a kind, mutual, honest friendship is the basis of most happy romantic relationships. Why wouldn't a woman who liked you be moved by your honesty about your situation? But most of all, it's a matter of self-esteem; it's so much easier to approach someone and be a friend if you know what you have to offer. Feeling worthless is a huge handicap. What is more, if you have been down, one thing you have to offer is an understanding of what that is like. You can let your situation enlarge your compassion for others.
131
"@99: nickyyyyyyy:
And will YOU be as open-minded about finding women who aren't--GASP!---totally buff hottie when YOU turn 47?
If you aren't, then what the fuck's wrong with your picture?"
Are you fucking kidding? I'm a moderately attractive fat girl in her mid twenties who LOVES fat guys up to age 30. My standards are exactly normal according to the "within a few degrees of yourself" benchmark. I don't harbor any illusions that I would have anything in common with a Fabio, nor would I expect one to find me attractive.
durrrrrrrrrrrr
And will YOU be as open-minded about finding women who aren't--GASP!---totally buff hottie when YOU turn 47?
If you aren't, then what the fuck's wrong with your picture?"
Are you fucking kidding? I'm a moderately attractive fat girl in her mid twenties who LOVES fat guys up to age 30. My standards are exactly normal according to the "within a few degrees of yourself" benchmark. I don't harbor any illusions that I would have anything in common with a Fabio, nor would I expect one to find me attractive.
durrrrrrrrrrrr
132
I'm surprised that in all these comments, no one, not even Dan, has suggested a simple solution: these guys need to focus on making friends. Platonic friends. Female friends, male friends, any kind of friends. It sounds like all three of these guys are socially isolated.
Being able to make new friends is the best way to meet new people who might become more than friends, or might introduce you to someone who can be more than a friend.
Being able to maintain platonic friendships will help you develop emotional intimacy.
Having close platonic friendships with women will teach you to respect women, to understand women, to not fear women, and to understand that women are NOT just potential sex partners.
Not that it's necessarily easy to make new friends. But that's where you should start.
Being able to make new friends is the best way to meet new people who might become more than friends, or might introduce you to someone who can be more than a friend.
Being able to maintain platonic friendships will help you develop emotional intimacy.
Having close platonic friendships with women will teach you to respect women, to understand women, to not fear women, and to understand that women are NOT just potential sex partners.
Not that it's necessarily easy to make new friends. But that's where you should start.
133
@chaya
Your letter moved me and I am so sorry that you cannot see a way out. My brother was in a similar position (it sounds awful that we were unaware but he had estranged himself from us) and he did take his life. At his funeral service so many people were devestated and if they had known what he was feeling would have helped. You may be unaware that there are people in your life who care for you. I do not wish to sound pithy or patronizing but could I suggest that you get yourself a pet (ideally a dog from a shelter) and have something in your life that cares for you and that you can care fpr. Years before I met my partner he was a very lonely man and he got himself a dog and this wonderful dog helped him through this lonely phase. Please, please, please try again to connect with life before taking it. Are your parents still alive, do you have any siblings? If so please connect with them for your sake and for theirs.
Your letter moved me and I am so sorry that you cannot see a way out. My brother was in a similar position (it sounds awful that we were unaware but he had estranged himself from us) and he did take his life. At his funeral service so many people were devestated and if they had known what he was feeling would have helped. You may be unaware that there are people in your life who care for you. I do not wish to sound pithy or patronizing but could I suggest that you get yourself a pet (ideally a dog from a shelter) and have something in your life that cares for you and that you can care fpr. Years before I met my partner he was a very lonely man and he got himself a dog and this wonderful dog helped him through this lonely phase. Please, please, please try again to connect with life before taking it. Are your parents still alive, do you have any siblings? If so please connect with them for your sake and for theirs.
134
I'm a woman. A neighbor of mine was 37 and had never had sex except with prostitutes. He went online and in the last year has had two relationships. The current one has lasted about six months and is going strong. There are free sites like plentyoffish.com
And dancing is the best suggestion I've read. I picked up my current boyfriend because I saw him dancing. I went up to him and said (and this is true!) "A man who'll dance is worth 10 who won't, and one who likes to dance is worth 20" and I didn't say "good at it" because that isn't nearly as important as enjoying dancing. You can take free lessons at a lot of places, look it up online.
Take a few lessons and then go online and say you love to dance. You'll be fighting women off with a stick!
And dancing is the best suggestion I've read. I picked up my current boyfriend because I saw him dancing. I went up to him and said (and this is true!) "A man who'll dance is worth 10 who won't, and one who likes to dance is worth 20" and I didn't say "good at it" because that isn't nearly as important as enjoying dancing. You can take free lessons at a lot of places, look it up online.
Take a few lessons and then go online and say you love to dance. You'll be fighting women off with a stick!
135
So, for those of us who are involuntarily celibate not because of self-esteem issues (I am married to a woman who is mentally ill in a way that has destroyed her desire for sex, and I don't want to leave her because (a) I like her, (b) she is a good mother to our son but needs my support, and (c) I can't really afford to), how precisely does one go about finding a professional to provide the sort of companionship that I've been missing for the last 20 months?
136
@forlornpanda - it will be a matter of trial and error. You could find working girls who do the "GFE" Girlfriend Experience (companionship and sex) online, in newspapers or through brothels. But you may have to try a few before you find someone you like. Generally the more you pay the better quality you'll find - but you don't have to think you need a $1000 an hour girl. Just a mid range, college educated, friendly gal would probably fill the need.
137
This guy giving advice is way off. He thinks he is being amusing by being real but in reality he is depressing to read. Give other advice besides going to a shrink say something useful, they are asking you for advice not a shrink. Tell them to try meeting woman on the internet and be in touch with the times. Tell them to connect with woman and it is not about money or looks but that woman can be attracted through a deeper connection. what kind of idiot columnist rights women are sex objects and men are success objects who is this guy writing about, this is the brilliant columnist reducing everything to common stereotypes and cliches
138
Thanks former tri-state - I really appreciate the comments and encouragement. It's the kind of nudge I need to get out there.
139
@chaya:
I send hugs too. I'm so sorry to hear you feel the way you do. It's a cliche to say you're not alone, but of course it's a cliche for a reason: because it's true. Try looking at it this way: so many people on this page alone care enough to offer you support and encouragement; surely there's love and support to be found offline too. Sometimes the world seems colder than it really is.
Before you follow through with your plan, can you try a few things? First, see a doctor. Depression is a chemical problem; sometimes there's a chemical solution. If not, they may recommend a counselor. I once read that "the cruelest trick in depression's arsenal is the illusion that it will never end." Yours may be beatable. You've got nothing to lose in trying everything available before making an irreversible choice.
Second, is there anything you love to do? Any hobbies or interests in your life; perhaps ones you'd given up on long ago? Take one or two up again. Not because a hobby will make life worthwhile, but because one of the best cures for loneliness is to find people who share your likes and interests. If you're lonely, go out and do what you love; you'll find others who love it too, and soon you'll be making connections.
Third, is there someone in your life you can connect with and really lay out your feelings to? You might be surprised how many people will share your burdens if you really open up. Even people from whom you wouldn't expect it.
I'll be praying for you.
I send hugs too. I'm so sorry to hear you feel the way you do. It's a cliche to say you're not alone, but of course it's a cliche for a reason: because it's true. Try looking at it this way: so many people on this page alone care enough to offer you support and encouragement; surely there's love and support to be found offline too. Sometimes the world seems colder than it really is.
Before you follow through with your plan, can you try a few things? First, see a doctor. Depression is a chemical problem; sometimes there's a chemical solution. If not, they may recommend a counselor. I once read that "the cruelest trick in depression's arsenal is the illusion that it will never end." Yours may be beatable. You've got nothing to lose in trying everything available before making an irreversible choice.
Second, is there anything you love to do? Any hobbies or interests in your life; perhaps ones you'd given up on long ago? Take one or two up again. Not because a hobby will make life worthwhile, but because one of the best cures for loneliness is to find people who share your likes and interests. If you're lonely, go out and do what you love; you'll find others who love it too, and soon you'll be making connections.
Third, is there someone in your life you can connect with and really lay out your feelings to? You might be surprised how many people will share your burdens if you really open up. Even people from whom you wouldn't expect it.
I'll be praying for you.
140
It would be wonderful to meet a man with no prior relationships. I hate thinking I'm being compared to a past love or sex partner. Despite my insecurities and jealousies, I've had scores of partners. My experience and innate compassion would ensure a fantastic sex life. Hopefully I will meet someone to make me feel like the most loved person in his life.
141
The dancing advice is great. As a socially inept gay guy who moved to Seattle in the late 80's, I was spinning my wheels until a friend introduced me to The Timberline and their free dance lessons.
There were several benefits:
1. Exercise. It's healthy and can help with depression.
2. It forced me to interact at least a little bit with other people. This was painful for me (and the people I was trying to socialize with), but simply showing up a lot meant the other regulars would at least smile and say hi. And as I relaxed and got more comfortable being around people, my social skills began to improve and I actually began to enjoy being around people more.
3. It really helped my physical coordination. At first there were a lot of dance partners with badly smashed toes, but they were forgiving and after a couple of months I could circle the dance floor without doing major damage to others. At the same time, I found myself becoming more physically adept and carried myself with some confidence for the first time in my life -- and other people noticed.
In addition to dancing, another thing that helped was volunteering for non-profit organizations and political campaigns. Again, these activities forced me to interact with others and practice those pesky social skills, even if it was only while sitting at a table labeling envelopes. Anything to get you out of your own head and connecting with others will help.
Oh yeah, and I did about five years of therapy to deal with all the fucked up shit from my past including physical and sexual abuse. I started with one-on-one, then moved to a group. Put all of this together and 15 years later my life is pretty good. Good luck to you.
There were several benefits:
1. Exercise. It's healthy and can help with depression.
2. It forced me to interact at least a little bit with other people. This was painful for me (and the people I was trying to socialize with), but simply showing up a lot meant the other regulars would at least smile and say hi. And as I relaxed and got more comfortable being around people, my social skills began to improve and I actually began to enjoy being around people more.
3. It really helped my physical coordination. At first there were a lot of dance partners with badly smashed toes, but they were forgiving and after a couple of months I could circle the dance floor without doing major damage to others. At the same time, I found myself becoming more physically adept and carried myself with some confidence for the first time in my life -- and other people noticed.
In addition to dancing, another thing that helped was volunteering for non-profit organizations and political campaigns. Again, these activities forced me to interact with others and practice those pesky social skills, even if it was only while sitting at a table labeling envelopes. Anything to get you out of your own head and connecting with others will help.
Oh yeah, and I did about five years of therapy to deal with all the fucked up shit from my past including physical and sexual abuse. I started with one-on-one, then moved to a group. Put all of this together and 15 years later my life is pretty good. Good luck to you.
142
@122 thank you for your contribution in making this world a better place.
@133, I am deeply sorry for your brother but you know the first signs are there: the estrangement, I got estranged voluntarily of my family, they know of my predicament and in which dire psychological situation i am, i just guess they are extremely uncomfortable in dealing with that kind of situation and they expect me to be strong as i have been known as the resilient person in my entourage, my brother thinks it is a midlife crisis and my father relies on me as his care giver, my mother died last year in my arms after 12 years of strugggle against altzheimer's.. Her passing away left me empty and emotionally drained and aimless. I have thought of a pet, but it will a last resort solution.
@139 I am battling depression since 2006, when i started the medication i do not know how many times i refrain myself of jumping under the subway line, change of medication did not help either because of some nasty side effect of said medication. I have hobbies such as reading and movies and zI used to like travel a lot but the mere thought of being alone erases any pleasure, i would like to "fight" on Goya vs El Greco or Picasso vs Dali. As for relatives see my preceding remarks .
I try to find solace and comfort in religion, I know Dan will cringe at this but ..........I do not think that any god likes to watch one of his creatures suffering, doesn't he??????
For me it is like i am drowning and and i can't get hold of a life saving device... but what I want is fairly easy a reason to hope a reason to live and God i am not asking for much... am I not?
@133, I am deeply sorry for your brother but you know the first signs are there: the estrangement, I got estranged voluntarily of my family, they know of my predicament and in which dire psychological situation i am, i just guess they are extremely uncomfortable in dealing with that kind of situation and they expect me to be strong as i have been known as the resilient person in my entourage, my brother thinks it is a midlife crisis and my father relies on me as his care giver, my mother died last year in my arms after 12 years of strugggle against altzheimer's.. Her passing away left me empty and emotionally drained and aimless. I have thought of a pet, but it will a last resort solution.
@139 I am battling depression since 2006, when i started the medication i do not know how many times i refrain myself of jumping under the subway line, change of medication did not help either because of some nasty side effect of said medication. I have hobbies such as reading and movies and zI used to like travel a lot but the mere thought of being alone erases any pleasure, i would like to "fight" on Goya vs El Greco or Picasso vs Dali. As for relatives see my preceding remarks .
I try to find solace and comfort in religion, I know Dan will cringe at this but ..........I do not think that any god likes to watch one of his creatures suffering, doesn't he??????
For me it is like i am drowning and and i can't get hold of a life saving device... but what I want is fairly easy a reason to hope a reason to live and God i am not asking for much... am I not?
143
Do I sense a theme here, of resentment towards women in general? I hate to say "lower," but it might help to "lower" the standards in the looks department, as long as they don't use it against women. It's a self-hating thing. I know--women do it too.
144
With respect I did suggest that the important thing was to look at improving your life : which includes friends.
It's not a route to relationships though, unless they can introduce you to plenty of people and aren't an active hindrance to your dating.
My friends are good friends, but uniformly useless at helping me find a partner. In my experience, if friendship doesn't turn into sex rapidly, it's never going to develop into a relationship.
In general people tell you what works for them, and it's up to you to figure out if it might work for you too. Often it won't as you are different people and want different things.. Also note that most people lie frequently. Watch what they actually do rather than what they say. In particular, once sex with someone hot is a possibility, their proposed standards suddenly drop, dramatically..
The best method is definitely to try lots of new activities. If your focus is a relationship : be ruthless - if there aren't enough of your potential type of person there, move on. Also realise that some friends take valuable time away from when you could be meeting someone.
The question is how much time and effort you're prepared to put in to find someone, and how much you compromise your life and standards. Spending a significant proportion of your life chasing a relationship is a pretty empty experience, but concentrating on enjoyable activities that have a low chance of finding a nice person isn't ideal, either.
It's still all about sex, despite what most people say. There are an extreme minority of people who form relationships after an extended friendship - but that's unlikely enough the best option is to maintain your friendships and if something happens, treat it as a bonus. The rest of the time, events move quickly and once fucking has occurred the relationship history is rewritten in non sexual terms. It's funny that other people are dramatically more dynamic and interesting than the person's partner, but because they're a good fuck, they stick around.
More...
It's not a route to relationships though, unless they can introduce you to plenty of people and aren't an active hindrance to your dating.
My friends are good friends, but uniformly useless at helping me find a partner. In my experience, if friendship doesn't turn into sex rapidly, it's never going to develop into a relationship.
In general people tell you what works for them, and it's up to you to figure out if it might work for you too. Often it won't as you are different people and want different things.. Also note that most people lie frequently. Watch what they actually do rather than what they say. In particular, once sex with someone hot is a possibility, their proposed standards suddenly drop, dramatically..
The best method is definitely to try lots of new activities. If your focus is a relationship : be ruthless - if there aren't enough of your potential type of person there, move on. Also realise that some friends take valuable time away from when you could be meeting someone.
The question is how much time and effort you're prepared to put in to find someone, and how much you compromise your life and standards. Spending a significant proportion of your life chasing a relationship is a pretty empty experience, but concentrating on enjoyable activities that have a low chance of finding a nice person isn't ideal, either.
It's still all about sex, despite what most people say. There are an extreme minority of people who form relationships after an extended friendship - but that's unlikely enough the best option is to maintain your friendships and if something happens, treat it as a bonus. The rest of the time, events move quickly and once fucking has occurred the relationship history is rewritten in non sexual terms. It's funny that other people are dramatically more dynamic and interesting than the person's partner, but because they're a good fuck, they stick around.
145
I am just going to comment on the base of this entire article of savage love.
It's based entirely around fat-bastards who pay for sex.....or have sex with less than un-attractive females.
What a horrible fucking life that must be...to think that FUCKING is so important that you would PAY for it....and I don't mean in that nice " I bought you dinner so you have to take my dick in your ass " way either.
I mean these men have actually admitted to paying PROSTITUTES FOR STD'S.
I am a less than Uber attractive male....and I have managed to have a threesome with two 19 year olds....I managed to have sex with a lesbian...a virgin...a redheaded super slut...none were prostitutes.
Paying for sex is like paying for water....it's free........you don't have to pay for it...
Booze isn't free.....but I guarantee that the chances of getting ghonnasyphaherpelaids is WAY LESS LIKELY if you take a bar slut home.....than if you go to Second and Lenora and buy a fucking WHORE.
Of course that's just my opinion.....I could be wrong. But I'm NOT.
It's based entirely around fat-bastards who pay for sex.....or have sex with less than un-attractive females.
What a horrible fucking life that must be...to think that FUCKING is so important that you would PAY for it....and I don't mean in that nice " I bought you dinner so you have to take my dick in your ass " way either.
I mean these men have actually admitted to paying PROSTITUTES FOR STD'S.
I am a less than Uber attractive male....and I have managed to have a threesome with two 19 year olds....I managed to have sex with a lesbian...a virgin...a redheaded super slut...none were prostitutes.
Paying for sex is like paying for water....it's free........you don't have to pay for it...
Booze isn't free.....but I guarantee that the chances of getting ghonnasyphaherpelaids is WAY LESS LIKELY if you take a bar slut home.....than if you go to Second and Lenora and buy a fucking WHORE.
Of course that's just my opinion.....I could be wrong. But I'm NOT.
146
Only the *first* letter is from a 'fat bastard looking for sex' Voice.. The others don't mention whether they're fat or not. Different situation.
Yes, it's a pretty tragic admission of failure if you pay for sex..
Oh, and water isn't free. You pay for the treatment and disposal of it.. Unless, of course, you fancy running your own water treatment plant.
Yes, it's a pretty tragic admission of failure if you pay for sex..
Oh, and water isn't free. You pay for the treatment and disposal of it.. Unless, of course, you fancy running your own water treatment plant.
147
I like Chaya760, he sounds like a reasonable guy. I don't think suicide is a great idea, but I really understand the situation. I am 26, estranged from my family, isolated, and occasionally have to stay away from high, open places.
Chaya760--you have lots of fans on the comments section here, I'm sure you could find friends or travel companions on the web. You're already estranged from your family so you don't have to worry about their opprobotion or disapproval. You can put together your own family now, with various people all around the world. There's crazy and fun people you can meet on the internet, on web sites like couchsurfing.com ... You can argue Picassa vs Picaso to your heart's content. I mean, you have nothing to lose.
Chaya760--you have lots of fans on the comments section here, I'm sure you could find friends or travel companions on the web. You're already estranged from your family so you don't have to worry about their opprobotion or disapproval. You can put together your own family now, with various people all around the world. There's crazy and fun people you can meet on the internet, on web sites like couchsurfing.com ... You can argue Picassa vs Picaso to your heart's content. I mean, you have nothing to lose.
149
I admit that paying for sex is less than ideal, but in my case it wasn't so much an admission of failure, but more like 'let's get this over with, and yes it may be degrading but it's a step on the way to something better'.
150
Guys need a reality check
Hoping for a hottie to make their self esteem go up. I think good advice was given. I just wanted to add that they need to realize that if youre not a 10, then you cant go out looking to get some really hot person. They need to look in the mirror and start to realize what they are on that scale of 1-10. They need to start accepting it and loving themselves. I think a lot of men have trouble being realistic because Hollywood movies sell these stories of average Joe's getting hot girls. Which only happens in reality because they have money or power or both.
Yes it sucks not too look like Meaghan Fox or Brad Pitt, but there isnt much to do. They just have to aim for girls near their average. I guess settling is not fun, but then again they have to accept and love themselves no matter if they are an 8 or a 2... if they can't love themselves then who will?
Hoping for a hottie to make their self esteem go up. I think good advice was given. I just wanted to add that they need to realize that if youre not a 10, then you cant go out looking to get some really hot person. They need to look in the mirror and start to realize what they are on that scale of 1-10. They need to start accepting it and loving themselves. I think a lot of men have trouble being realistic because Hollywood movies sell these stories of average Joe's getting hot girls. Which only happens in reality because they have money or power or both.
Yes it sucks not too look like Meaghan Fox or Brad Pitt, but there isnt much to do. They just have to aim for girls near their average. I guess settling is not fun, but then again they have to accept and love themselves no matter if they are an 8 or a 2... if they can't love themselves then who will?
151
As a 34 y/o single male who has spent most of my adult life in a similar situation, my take on ALONE's dilemma is that A) lack of sexual success is a damning social stigma that will lower your standing in other people's eyes, particularly women, and therefore make it even harder to find suitable partners. B) Going to therapy - much less admitting it - is a flat-out dealbreaker to many women.
This makes it conundrum of sorts whereby acknowledging the problem might actually make it worse.
I'm wondering if anyone else see it this way, or if I'm being just a tad too neurotic. My own experience leads me to believe that this true.
This makes it conundrum of sorts whereby acknowledging the problem might actually make it worse.
I'm wondering if anyone else see it this way, or if I'm being just a tad too neurotic. My own experience leads me to believe that this true.
152
Chaya760,
My condolences on the loss of your mother. I'm so very sorry for the heavy weight that sits on your shoulders. It makes sense why you feel at the end of your rope. Loosing a parent, being a caretaker, battling depression its huge, yet you have found the strength to keep fighting. Despite all you face you are stronger than you realize. We are so blessed to have you here on SLOG.
I could not sleep last night. My mind turned to you and a man who shared similar feelings of being alone on Dan's SLOG post about an ex-gay author. I prayed for you both, your lying heavy on my heart. You matter, please don't forget it.
Take care,
k
PS Have you considered grief counseling?
My condolences on the loss of your mother. I'm so very sorry for the heavy weight that sits on your shoulders. It makes sense why you feel at the end of your rope. Loosing a parent, being a caretaker, battling depression its huge, yet you have found the strength to keep fighting. Despite all you face you are stronger than you realize. We are so blessed to have you here on SLOG.
I could not sleep last night. My mind turned to you and a man who shared similar feelings of being alone on Dan's SLOG post about an ex-gay author. I prayed for you both, your lying heavy on my heart. You matter, please don't forget it.
Take care,
k
PS Have you considered grief counseling?
153
AlohaBobby,
As a woman who needed counseling herself, I have nothing but admiration for a man who is strong enough to seek help. It definitely wouldn't be a deal breaker, it would be a plus in your favor.
As a woman who needed counseling herself, I have nothing but admiration for a man who is strong enough to seek help. It definitely wouldn't be a deal breaker, it would be a plus in your favor.
154
I think that all people need to remember that they can change and start enjoying things more. Once you do, you have no idea what fun things may fall into your life.
Just recently, I started dating a shy guy that I had fallen out of touch with. We fell out of touch because I thought he wasn't interested. So, here we are 2 years later... and he's a lot less shy, I can tell you that XD. He said that he decided to start enjoying things more. And I'm so glad he did. I couldn't ask for a better guy to be with.
Just recently, I started dating a shy guy that I had fallen out of touch with. We fell out of touch because I thought he wasn't interested. So, here we are 2 years later... and he's a lot less shy, I can tell you that XD. He said that he decided to start enjoying things more. And I'm so glad he did. I couldn't ask for a better guy to be with.
156
I completely disagree with a lot of the comments on here.
I always dated nerdy boys, from the bottom of the candy jar, not only because I found them to be the most attractive, but also because they weren't hit on a lot, and it was easier to date them. I also think that society's expectations for looks are entirely unfair, and obviously based on some sort of plastic sexuality. Looks actually have very little to do with real sexuality. And you will find this once you get out there and experiment. Some so-so looking woman (according to your high standards at least and society's horrible standard of blond barbies) could totally blow your mind.
And I married one of the un-loved types (who was super attractive, and adorable) but who had never had a real relationship. He's the best thing that has ever happened to me. But he felt so isolated and unloved which affected his ability to trust.
Being inexperienced can cause a feeling of deep separation and anxiety. I also think you need to concentrate on building up experience, getting out in the world with friends and being very open.
I always dated nerdy boys, from the bottom of the candy jar, not only because I found them to be the most attractive, but also because they weren't hit on a lot, and it was easier to date them. I also think that society's expectations for looks are entirely unfair, and obviously based on some sort of plastic sexuality. Looks actually have very little to do with real sexuality. And you will find this once you get out there and experiment. Some so-so looking woman (according to your high standards at least and society's horrible standard of blond barbies) could totally blow your mind.
And I married one of the un-loved types (who was super attractive, and adorable) but who had never had a real relationship. He's the best thing that has ever happened to me. But he felt so isolated and unloved which affected his ability to trust.
Being inexperienced can cause a feeling of deep separation and anxiety. I also think you need to concentrate on building up experience, getting out in the world with friends and being very open.
157
Girls who like nerdy guys dont really exist in the real world. They tend to be in the scene so if youre over 25 or you dont have a very, very specific social circle you have to either develop a new personality and shrug off your past, use call girls or kill yourself if intimate physical contact is that important to you. Or get a lobotomy. Or take antidepressants and eliminate your libido, though those dont really make the desire for emotional intimacy go away, unfortunately, nor do they make the idea of romantic relationships less appealing. Anyway, those are the options and those are just the plain facts. Also, even girls who dig nerdy guys dont like creepy guys so thinking these despairing thoughts automatically makes you undateable. It doesnt matter what you look like. It doesnt matter what they look like. Once you get to this point youre done. Game over.
159
@148 I am so happy for you... can u throw another round of love making for my sake thanks.
@152 many deep heartfelt thanks KIm and i deeply appreciate your concern that few written words on this board cannot convey. I feel guilty about your loosing sleep, you are the first person who has lost sleep over me , though i must say that is the 3rd toughest period of my life, the first when i came out to my parents at 17 to be told that homosexuality is an abomination and an abnormality , and this is the last one. i did not kill my self at 17 because i wanted to give life and myself a second chance and i might this time but... life did not turn as i expected and probably will not allow to proceed to my plan. I wish you a nice week end .
PS I am Greek( and living in Greece) so grief counselling is not readily available but thanks for the tip
@152 many deep heartfelt thanks KIm and i deeply appreciate your concern that few written words on this board cannot convey. I feel guilty about your loosing sleep, you are the first person who has lost sleep over me , though i must say that is the 3rd toughest period of my life, the first when i came out to my parents at 17 to be told that homosexuality is an abomination and an abnormality , and this is the last one. i did not kill my self at 17 because i wanted to give life and myself a second chance and i might this time but... life did not turn as i expected and probably will not allow to proceed to my plan. I wish you a nice week end .
PS I am Greek( and living in Greece) so grief counselling is not readily available but thanks for the tip
160
Me again. Some thoughts on the comments. I'm middle aged and have been around the track a few times. It seems that by the late 30s, a lot of people have wised up and become less looks focused, but you have to have something to offer instead - charm, warmth, confidence, brains, kindness, self-awareness. Some of the most attractive over-40 guys I know are pretty plain physically, but by this point, it's what they've done with themselves that attracts me. So, if you feel worthless, work on that. Become someone who thinks of the other person, not just obsessive worry about oneself and others' opinions. Honestly, none of these guys seems like he couldn't join the human party if he just felt okay about himself and took his light out from under the bushel. Sex and love come along with that, not before.
161
Get over yourselves and find something you are passionate about (besides self pity). That's what I did and I never looked back.
162
I'm a girl and I agree with a lot of what UKGuy says.
Also though, these comments reek of guys who seem to think only guys have these sorts of problems.
I'm a girl who is 23, probably in the top 10% for intelligence and top 30% for looks. I have some fairly good friends, though some people have told me I come across as shy, and I know some other people (though not the majority I hope) find me to be an asshole.
I know a lot about sex (at least academically) and try to project confidence.
I'm also, umm, a virgin.
I've had a few botched single nights of experimentation with different guys. As I've gotten older I've realized that a good portion of the problem lies in my own head -I think I'm too picky, but also I tend to have trouble viewing people I know well in a sexual light. I also don't want to admit to anyone I'm interested in that I'm a virgin, so I'm sure some of the past guys just thought I was bad in bed.
I spend a lot of time being depressed about the whole thing.
But I do realize there are far more important things in life.
I think the biggest thing I need to work on though, is putting myself out there more. I've realized meeting people is an odds thing -most people you meet aren't going to want to be friends are bone you or whatever, but the more people you meet the more people you'll meet who want to do those things.
If some people don't like you it doesn't mean you're a failure. It means that you're just not one of those people who put a lot of energy into being totally unoffensive to everyone -I'm not even sure if they're the majority.
Also though, these comments reek of guys who seem to think only guys have these sorts of problems.
I'm a girl who is 23, probably in the top 10% for intelligence and top 30% for looks. I have some fairly good friends, though some people have told me I come across as shy, and I know some other people (though not the majority I hope) find me to be an asshole.
I know a lot about sex (at least academically) and try to project confidence.
I'm also, umm, a virgin.
I've had a few botched single nights of experimentation with different guys. As I've gotten older I've realized that a good portion of the problem lies in my own head -I think I'm too picky, but also I tend to have trouble viewing people I know well in a sexual light. I also don't want to admit to anyone I'm interested in that I'm a virgin, so I'm sure some of the past guys just thought I was bad in bed.
I spend a lot of time being depressed about the whole thing.
But I do realize there are far more important things in life.
I think the biggest thing I need to work on though, is putting myself out there more. I've realized meeting people is an odds thing -most people you meet aren't going to want to be friends are bone you or whatever, but the more people you meet the more people you'll meet who want to do those things.
If some people don't like you it doesn't mean you're a failure. It means that you're just not one of those people who put a lot of energy into being totally unoffensive to everyone -I'm not even sure if they're the majority.
163
This is one of the best SL columns I can remember, and I thought the compassionate but "brutally" honest advice was right on.
164
@ chaya760,
You say you're in Greece? Perhaps it is your location that's getting you down. Hold off on your thoughts of killing yourself. You are depressed and it's making your situation seem far hopeless than it probably is. Wait till the economy improves & then find a job somewhere else and start over. Moving half way across the country away from narrow-minded bigots did a world of good for me. I, like a young version of STPIWTGO, didn't really enjoy dating, socializing, life, anything till I left the ass-backward small town I grew up in. In the city I found people who's company I enjoyed and who's intellect and conversation interested me. I did get treatment for depression and anxiety, but a new city gave me a chance to start over with new people who hadn't pigeonholed me into the role of outcast and loser.
p.s. I don't think there's anything wrong with paying for sex. If you're trying to learn a new 'skill', you need a good teacher and practice, practice, practice. You wouldn't be embarrassed if this were learning to play the piano or learning to dance, why would hiring a sex pro be embarrassing? If they've been working very long, they've heard it all.
p.p.s. If Donald Trump (or any straight man) isn't embarrassed by having a trophy spouse on their arm, why would a gay man be embarrassed?
You say you're in Greece? Perhaps it is your location that's getting you down. Hold off on your thoughts of killing yourself. You are depressed and it's making your situation seem far hopeless than it probably is. Wait till the economy improves & then find a job somewhere else and start over. Moving half way across the country away from narrow-minded bigots did a world of good for me. I, like a young version of STPIWTGO, didn't really enjoy dating, socializing, life, anything till I left the ass-backward small town I grew up in. In the city I found people who's company I enjoyed and who's intellect and conversation interested me. I did get treatment for depression and anxiety, but a new city gave me a chance to start over with new people who hadn't pigeonholed me into the role of outcast and loser.
p.s. I don't think there's anything wrong with paying for sex. If you're trying to learn a new 'skill', you need a good teacher and practice, practice, practice. You wouldn't be embarrassed if this were learning to play the piano or learning to dance, why would hiring a sex pro be embarrassing? If they've been working very long, they've heard it all.
p.p.s. If Donald Trump (or any straight man) isn't embarrassed by having a trophy spouse on their arm, why would a gay man be embarrassed?
165
chaya760, have you thought of moving to Melbourne, Australia? It is a wonderful city with a large Greek population and is very gay friendly. You would love it here and would love the gay greek scene found here.
166
I can't help but wonder if this is a male problem? I'm a 21 year old girl and am really over male friends saying, "You're hot, intelligent, funny, caring, why are you single?". Now what I usually say is, "Because I'm over dating/sleeping with douchebags, and am now waiting for someone that even MUTUAL friends don't warn me against". The problem is that so many guys I know can't grasp this concept. Happy being single? No way, that just cannot be! So now it's usually, "George Clooney isn't returning my calls" to avoid the emo crying or lesbian accusations from them.
The thing is nearly every single girl I know is very happy being single and fulfill their needs via NSA sex or vibrators (on that topic, LELO has changed my life!). Guys on the other hand are drunkenly crying over the lack of intimacy in their lives and how badly they want a girlfriend.
What's changed in society? I thought the patriarchal, heteronormative media has told us its women who "need" a man in their life?
The thing is nearly every single girl I know is very happy being single and fulfill their needs via NSA sex or vibrators (on that topic, LELO has changed my life!). Guys on the other hand are drunkenly crying over the lack of intimacy in their lives and how badly they want a girlfriend.
What's changed in society? I thought the patriarchal, heteronormative media has told us its women who "need" a man in their life?
167
It seems to me that virginity/celibacy is posing two interconnected problems for the LW's: feeling deprived and feeling inferior.
1. Feeling deprived: in the US, we're living a cultural moment in which we're told constantly, in all kinds of subtle and not-so-subtle ways, that everyone should not only be having lots of sex, but also should be having lots of GREAT sex - and if you're not, you're missing out on a mind-blowing pleasure that everyone but you is enjoying several times/week.
2. Feeling inferior: the belief that not having found someone eager to make the beast with two backs with you in every room of the house means you're the most pathetic kind of loser, no matter what your life is otherwise like - because, after all, nothing in life is more important than having those daily sexual marathons everyone else but you is enjoying (see #1).
The problem, of course, is that neither of these beliefs really holds water. As far as #1 goes, many people are not having regular marathon bouts of mind-blowing sex, even - or maybe especially - the people in relationships which have lasted longer than three months. If everyone but the LW's was getting that kind of sex, Dan would be out of a job! The world is full of sexually dissatisfied people, and finding someone willing to have sex with you is no guarantee it will be good sex or even decent sex; finding a long-term relationship is certainly no guarantee you'll always have hot sex available on demand.
And as far as #2 goes, letting other people's willingness to take off their clothes for you determine how much YOU like yourself is a stunningly bad idea - you'll never know anything resembling inner peace until you're no longer waiting for other people to throw you a few crumbs of approval. Would we all like to be stunningly attractive? Sure, why not? But most of us, simply by the laws of averages, are not going to be in that elite group, and there's no point to spending all our time wishing we were.
At the risk of moving into cliche territory, life is like a card game: you have to play the cards you're dealt instead of sitting around and feeling sorry for yourself because you didn't get the cards you wanted. Not everyone's hot - just like not everyone's tall, not everyone's a genius, not everyone has 20/20 vision, not everyone has a good singing voice, etc. Maximize the assets you have, and don't sit brooding about the ones you didn't get.
More...
1. Feeling deprived: in the US, we're living a cultural moment in which we're told constantly, in all kinds of subtle and not-so-subtle ways, that everyone should not only be having lots of sex, but also should be having lots of GREAT sex - and if you're not, you're missing out on a mind-blowing pleasure that everyone but you is enjoying several times/week.
2. Feeling inferior: the belief that not having found someone eager to make the beast with two backs with you in every room of the house means you're the most pathetic kind of loser, no matter what your life is otherwise like - because, after all, nothing in life is more important than having those daily sexual marathons everyone else but you is enjoying (see #1).
The problem, of course, is that neither of these beliefs really holds water. As far as #1 goes, many people are not having regular marathon bouts of mind-blowing sex, even - or maybe especially - the people in relationships which have lasted longer than three months. If everyone but the LW's was getting that kind of sex, Dan would be out of a job! The world is full of sexually dissatisfied people, and finding someone willing to have sex with you is no guarantee it will be good sex or even decent sex; finding a long-term relationship is certainly no guarantee you'll always have hot sex available on demand.
And as far as #2 goes, letting other people's willingness to take off their clothes for you determine how much YOU like yourself is a stunningly bad idea - you'll never know anything resembling inner peace until you're no longer waiting for other people to throw you a few crumbs of approval. Would we all like to be stunningly attractive? Sure, why not? But most of us, simply by the laws of averages, are not going to be in that elite group, and there's no point to spending all our time wishing we were.
At the risk of moving into cliche territory, life is like a card game: you have to play the cards you're dealt instead of sitting around and feeling sorry for yourself because you didn't get the cards you wanted. Not everyone's hot - just like not everyone's tall, not everyone's a genius, not everyone has 20/20 vision, not everyone has a good singing voice, etc. Maximize the assets you have, and don't sit brooding about the ones you didn't get.
168
"The Four Agreements" and "The Mastery of Love" by Don Miguel Ruiz are books that can help anyone learn to love themselves if they're open enough to it. Especially in terms of letting go of the ego and emotional poison.
169
To every guy, next time you go to a bar, assign a number to every women in terms of attractiveness in the bar. Hit on the lower 2/3rds of the women on your list and you'll increase your chance of connecting with someone.
Every bar I go to I see guys hitting on (or staring at) the same 3-5 hottest women in the room all night. There are plenty of acceptably pretty girls in the room who are being ignored. Pick one of them and say HI.
AND get some hobbies that get you interacting with other people. Like others have mentioned partner dancing is the best way to meet lots of women. Just push through the uncomfortable first few months of learning and it'll get easier.
Every bar I go to I see guys hitting on (or staring at) the same 3-5 hottest women in the room all night. There are plenty of acceptably pretty girls in the room who are being ignored. Pick one of them and say HI.
AND get some hobbies that get you interacting with other people. Like others have mentioned partner dancing is the best way to meet lots of women. Just push through the uncomfortable first few months of learning and it'll get easier.
170
@99 & 131: Okay, nickyyyy, you don't need to go postal. I was under the impression that you were a guy in his tewnties ragging on his mom because she was overweight but sought out only bronze Apollos.
Durrrrr right back.
Durrrrr right back.
171
one simple fact contains the answer to all cases examined in this week's Savage Love.
anywhere in the world a woman can get money for sex.
she doesn't have to be attractive (but if she is she can probably get more $$$), clever or charming.
nowhere in the world can a man get money for sex (unless he is prepared to get it from another man..).
this state of affairs would easily be explained if humans were like cuttlefish.
male cuttlefish outnumber females about 10 to 1, so females can be as picky as they want and always get some.
(cuttlefish also mate once in a lifetime...)
for us: 50% males, 50% females (roughly).
using the fact stated above and the principle of supply and demand, find the answer to this week's problems.
anywhere in the world a woman can get money for sex.
she doesn't have to be attractive (but if she is she can probably get more $$$), clever or charming.
nowhere in the world can a man get money for sex (unless he is prepared to get it from another man..).
this state of affairs would easily be explained if humans were like cuttlefish.
male cuttlefish outnumber females about 10 to 1, so females can be as picky as they want and always get some.
(cuttlefish also mate once in a lifetime...)
for us: 50% males, 50% females (roughly).
using the fact stated above and the principle of supply and demand, find the answer to this week's problems.
173
@170: And please excuse the typo. It is meant to read "twenties".
And anyway, nickyyyy--who besides you cares if your Mom weighs 250 lbs. and has the hots for Fabio? I'll bet that among 300 million Americans she's not alone.
And anyway, nickyyyy--who besides you cares if your Mom weighs 250 lbs. and has the hots for Fabio? I'll bet that among 300 million Americans she's not alone.
177
To: UKguy - Water is free, there are natural springs all over the world.
Water bill is payed by management at my apartment building...therefore the taxes for that water are included in the bill that they pay.
It rains all the time. this water can be gathered and filtered very easily. Also, I made a blanket statement regarding "fat bastards". It could be they are fat, shy, supremely ugly, or just plain rude to the women they are trying to get attention from.
Whatever the case may be, the point of my comparison between water and pussy I guess needs to be clarified. Water is readily available through many methods....just as pussy is.
Sure you can pay for pussy, but that is not a step towards something better. It will only change into something worse. Before you know it you aren't even talking to women anymore other than asking them how much, and then there is the whole entire ILLEGAL part of it, which like it or not it is illegal to buy sex.
To sick of beatin' - Stop masturbating for awhile, stop fucking prostitutes, and stop going to bars/clubs/wherever looking for girls to fuck.
Try going to churches, libraries, voulenteer at an animal shelter...go to a gym, if you are embarrassed of your weight problem do something about it, if you don't like people watching you work out do super early in the morning or super late at night 24 hour fitness workouts.
Basically if you are tired of being lonely, try looking for some kind of relationship of substance, instead of empty emotionless fucking.
Or you can keep gambling with your cock by utilizing prostitutes. Personally my lil soldier is more important than that to me, the few one-night stands i've had were less satisfying than a good 45 minute round of attackin' my monkey to some high quality porn.
Of course I am a Cancerian, so maybe it's just that is the reason why I need it to be an emotional and physical attraction to allow myself to really lose inhibition.
This could be why you are facing problems such as not being able to hold your load during oral sex or a handjob. Next time you masturbate, don't do it to get off. do it to see how long you can go before you do. And then when you do, don't stop....keep masturbating. Use your imagination. Use visual stimuli. Teach your brain to control your cock, not the other way around....I know it sounds stupid....but this is the reason why I'm now able to choose when I orgasm.
I don't know....maybe it'll help, maybe it won't....I'm just throwing out what I think to be good advice.
More...
Water bill is payed by management at my apartment building...therefore the taxes for that water are included in the bill that they pay.
It rains all the time. this water can be gathered and filtered very easily. Also, I made a blanket statement regarding "fat bastards". It could be they are fat, shy, supremely ugly, or just plain rude to the women they are trying to get attention from.
Whatever the case may be, the point of my comparison between water and pussy I guess needs to be clarified. Water is readily available through many methods....just as pussy is.
Sure you can pay for pussy, but that is not a step towards something better. It will only change into something worse. Before you know it you aren't even talking to women anymore other than asking them how much, and then there is the whole entire ILLEGAL part of it, which like it or not it is illegal to buy sex.
To sick of beatin' - Stop masturbating for awhile, stop fucking prostitutes, and stop going to bars/clubs/wherever looking for girls to fuck.
Try going to churches, libraries, voulenteer at an animal shelter...go to a gym, if you are embarrassed of your weight problem do something about it, if you don't like people watching you work out do super early in the morning or super late at night 24 hour fitness workouts.
Basically if you are tired of being lonely, try looking for some kind of relationship of substance, instead of empty emotionless fucking.
Or you can keep gambling with your cock by utilizing prostitutes. Personally my lil soldier is more important than that to me, the few one-night stands i've had were less satisfying than a good 45 minute round of attackin' my monkey to some high quality porn.
Of course I am a Cancerian, so maybe it's just that is the reason why I need it to be an emotional and physical attraction to allow myself to really lose inhibition.
This could be why you are facing problems such as not being able to hold your load during oral sex or a handjob. Next time you masturbate, don't do it to get off. do it to see how long you can go before you do. And then when you do, don't stop....keep masturbating. Use your imagination. Use visual stimuli. Teach your brain to control your cock, not the other way around....I know it sounds stupid....but this is the reason why I'm now able to choose when I orgasm.
I don't know....maybe it'll help, maybe it won't....I'm just throwing out what I think to be good advice.
178
Great advice to ALONE (great advice all around, actually). I'm alone, always have been.Probably because it never occurred to me that someone would find me attractive. Depressed & terrified fits to a 'T'. Had a bit of therapy to sort myself out. But a previous lifetime of abuse & isolation don't go away over night. Got a few good friends. A decent job. Travel a bit. Do stuff on my own all the time. Some of us may very well end up alone but that doesn't mean we should go down without a fight.
179
Hello Folks,
Every week I wait for Dan's column and this week's is especially interesting. I feel like I could write forever about my own limited experience with women & relationships.
As I read other people's comments I laugh and learn from the wisdom. Over the years Dan has given advice that just sticks. Solid. I remember the one about a guy in Alaska who would come out of the blue and have awesome sex w. a lower 48 girl in her state. Then he would leave for Alaska. The girl wrote Dan and he told her that the guy was DG (Damaged Goods) and that she should move on.
For the men who wrote Dan please read his archives, all of these comments, and seek the help of a group and therapist. You need to figure yourself out and understand what it means to be in a relationship. You must love yourself before you love anyone. You should have a routine of things that you enjoy before she comes along. You must ask yourself if you are willing to commit your time, space, and resources to a relationship w. woman.
(There's a meanie comment here about a woman giving you an earfull all the time. It's funny but true, so be ready for conversation and compromise beyond anything you've dealt w. in other circles. You can be silent w. a roomie or co-worker, but relationships are full of prattle.)
Now after three brief relationships, I know what plan I "need to work" for myself. I am not exactly like the dude in Alaska (though I am good in bed), but I know that I need a life routine and that vanilla sex can bore the hell out of me.
Oh yeah, make sure you find your kink so that you can explore it with your mate. Also, NEVER get rid of your porn. Again, NEVER get rid of your porn. If you enjoy your porn now and it gets you off, don't expect monogamous sex to do it all for you, forever. Don't be a fool. I am still recovering from three purges.
Best,
Klitboy
More...
Every week I wait for Dan's column and this week's is especially interesting. I feel like I could write forever about my own limited experience with women & relationships.
As I read other people's comments I laugh and learn from the wisdom. Over the years Dan has given advice that just sticks. Solid. I remember the one about a guy in Alaska who would come out of the blue and have awesome sex w. a lower 48 girl in her state. Then he would leave for Alaska. The girl wrote Dan and he told her that the guy was DG (Damaged Goods) and that she should move on.
For the men who wrote Dan please read his archives, all of these comments, and seek the help of a group and therapist. You need to figure yourself out and understand what it means to be in a relationship. You must love yourself before you love anyone. You should have a routine of things that you enjoy before she comes along. You must ask yourself if you are willing to commit your time, space, and resources to a relationship w. woman.
(There's a meanie comment here about a woman giving you an earfull all the time. It's funny but true, so be ready for conversation and compromise beyond anything you've dealt w. in other circles. You can be silent w. a roomie or co-worker, but relationships are full of prattle.)
Now after three brief relationships, I know what plan I "need to work" for myself. I am not exactly like the dude in Alaska (though I am good in bed), but I know that I need a life routine and that vanilla sex can bore the hell out of me.
Oh yeah, make sure you find your kink so that you can explore it with your mate. Also, NEVER get rid of your porn. Again, NEVER get rid of your porn. If you enjoy your porn now and it gets you off, don't expect monogamous sex to do it all for you, forever. Don't be a fool. I am still recovering from three purges.
Best,
Klitboy
180
@STPIWTGO
Now... maybe back in your day this wasn't as true (seeing as 60 years ago all women were being trained to do was to "be good housewives") but at least now a days there are plenty of girls who are in the exact same situation as yourself. I'm one of them (we're generally referred to as "nerd girls"). I was made fun of in school for being smart, and like you, this has given me a shitload of social anxiety. However, the difference between us is: I've figured out that all the other people who I will like are somewhat like me, generally kind of shy and unwilling to make the first move in relationships and friendships.
Look, as a 60 year old, you're lucky enough to be able to date a wide range of people- over 40 is probably fine. However, you should look for someone that similar to you, join a book club, do some charity work, we're out there... but most of us are just like you, and too shy to sit at a bar and order you drinks. Take a chance and try to strike up intelligent conversation with one of the quiet women around you. There are people in the world like you... but the problem is that they're like you in more than just intelligence.
Now... maybe back in your day this wasn't as true (seeing as 60 years ago all women were being trained to do was to "be good housewives") but at least now a days there are plenty of girls who are in the exact same situation as yourself. I'm one of them (we're generally referred to as "nerd girls"). I was made fun of in school for being smart, and like you, this has given me a shitload of social anxiety. However, the difference between us is: I've figured out that all the other people who I will like are somewhat like me, generally kind of shy and unwilling to make the first move in relationships and friendships.
Look, as a 60 year old, you're lucky enough to be able to date a wide range of people- over 40 is probably fine. However, you should look for someone that similar to you, join a book club, do some charity work, we're out there... but most of us are just like you, and too shy to sit at a bar and order you drinks. Take a chance and try to strike up intelligent conversation with one of the quiet women around you. There are people in the world like you... but the problem is that they're like you in more than just intelligence.
181
@ chaya760
You are a 50 year old successful and reasonably attractive guy in Greece? Assuming you aren't in a village, you should find a lot of guys that are into you... I am a 30 year old guy living in Turkey, and VERY often find that the hot guys I'm into prefer a guy your age because he has his life together and can be more trusted to focus on a relationship. I think you should put yourself out there more... I know it may be scary, but really, isn't that better than the alternative?
The this coming weekend is a big Istanbul bear event. If you live in Thess, it's just an overnight train ride away. Even if bears aren't your type, I am sure you would find younger guys that would be into you there. If nothing else, it might be fun and interesting to connect with guys from the region. It's being jointly hosted by Greek, Italian, Spanish, and Turkish bear organizations.
Yes - it sounds crazy and silly - but not as crazy as offing oneself. Worst case scenario, you get to spend some time in Istanbul at parties with really friendly guys. I will even take you out to for a drink if you like. :) From me you can expect fair brute-ish honesty of the kind that Dan is known for.
And really take Kim's words to heart. What kind-hearted person she is. But put it in the perspective that she is one of many people whom you matter to. Best wishes, man.
You are a 50 year old successful and reasonably attractive guy in Greece? Assuming you aren't in a village, you should find a lot of guys that are into you... I am a 30 year old guy living in Turkey, and VERY often find that the hot guys I'm into prefer a guy your age because he has his life together and can be more trusted to focus on a relationship. I think you should put yourself out there more... I know it may be scary, but really, isn't that better than the alternative?
The this coming weekend is a big Istanbul bear event. If you live in Thess, it's just an overnight train ride away. Even if bears aren't your type, I am sure you would find younger guys that would be into you there. If nothing else, it might be fun and interesting to connect with guys from the region. It's being jointly hosted by Greek, Italian, Spanish, and Turkish bear organizations.
Yes - it sounds crazy and silly - but not as crazy as offing oneself. Worst case scenario, you get to spend some time in Istanbul at parties with really friendly guys. I will even take you out to for a drink if you like. :) From me you can expect fair brute-ish honesty of the kind that Dan is known for.
And really take Kim's words to heart. What kind-hearted person she is. But put it in the perspective that she is one of many people whom you matter to. Best wishes, man.
182
Thanks for mentioning "mild-to-moderate autism" as a possibility for the gentleman who was clueless as to why he'd never had sex at 60. Sometimes it's exhausting for us Aspies to try to learn how to relate on a "natural" or "normal" level and some of us never learn how, or ever even understand that we have Asperger's Syndrome or autism of any stripe on the wide spectrum.
I'm a woman who got diagnosed at 50 and was absolutely stunned at both the diagnosis and that it explained everything, EVERYTHING in my entire freakin' life.
Aspies also don't necessarily fit into stereotypical gender behavior patterns, further muddying their confusion in sexual choices. I had to learn to thumb my nose at the rigid straight folks frightened at my lesbianism and the dykes who call me a fence-sitting chickenshit. I now glory in my differences and ambi-sexuality, thrilled to be a "byke," as one of your readers called herself, but it took decades to make peace with it all before I knew about Asperger's.
Thanks for recommending that fellow head to therapy. Please let people know about the resources of Tony Attwood's "The Complete Guide To Asperger's Syndrome," "Aspergers In Love" by Maxine Aston, Isabelle Henault's "Asperger's Syndrome and Sexuality," and the YouTube video by the phenomenal (and self-admittedly asexual) Dr. Temple Grandin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wt1IY3ff…
You do a helluva job, Dan.
I'm a woman who got diagnosed at 50 and was absolutely stunned at both the diagnosis and that it explained everything, EVERYTHING in my entire freakin' life.
Aspies also don't necessarily fit into stereotypical gender behavior patterns, further muddying their confusion in sexual choices. I had to learn to thumb my nose at the rigid straight folks frightened at my lesbianism and the dykes who call me a fence-sitting chickenshit. I now glory in my differences and ambi-sexuality, thrilled to be a "byke," as one of your readers called herself, but it took decades to make peace with it all before I knew about Asperger's.
Thanks for recommending that fellow head to therapy. Please let people know about the resources of Tony Attwood's "The Complete Guide To Asperger's Syndrome," "Aspergers In Love" by Maxine Aston, Isabelle Henault's "Asperger's Syndrome and Sexuality," and the YouTube video by the phenomenal (and self-admittedly asexual) Dr. Temple Grandin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wt1IY3ff…
You do a helluva job, Dan.
183
#68 has it right. I didn't read all the comments, but that one got me to add a comment in agreement. In my book trying to be someone people like better IS a key component to a happier life.
I'm a 60 year old widow who took way too many years to realize she was narcissistic, arrogant, selfish and petty - and too obtuse to absorb the not so subtle hints about this. My poor, dead husband who should have told me more bluntly and didn't. Luckly I got a clue while taking care of him as he slowly died.
Lonely people: take Dan's and #68's advice. Think about behavior towards you that you like and mirror it. Force yourself to learn thoughtful, cheerful, pleasant ways. You don't have to become Pollyanna, or a carpet or little Miss Sunshine, and I never will be the most popular person on the block. But to be liked, you have to like. It's just the way things are.
And also, as many commenters are saying: YES to getting involved in something. The world is so full of a myriad of things, we all should be happy as kings. The choices in this country as to things to do and the freedom to do them is endless.
I do not have a relationship, but I do have good friends and, unlike my previous self, I'm working hard to hold onto them.
Be kind, be involved. You won't regret it.
I'm a 60 year old widow who took way too many years to realize she was narcissistic, arrogant, selfish and petty - and too obtuse to absorb the not so subtle hints about this. My poor, dead husband who should have told me more bluntly and didn't. Luckly I got a clue while taking care of him as he slowly died.
Lonely people: take Dan's and #68's advice. Think about behavior towards you that you like and mirror it. Force yourself to learn thoughtful, cheerful, pleasant ways. You don't have to become Pollyanna, or a carpet or little Miss Sunshine, and I never will be the most popular person on the block. But to be liked, you have to like. It's just the way things are.
And also, as many commenters are saying: YES to getting involved in something. The world is so full of a myriad of things, we all should be happy as kings. The choices in this country as to things to do and the freedom to do them is endless.
I do not have a relationship, but I do have good friends and, unlike my previous self, I'm working hard to hold onto them.
Be kind, be involved. You won't regret it.
184
I always wonder why Dan never has advice for sad, lonely *female* virgins. Any advice for us, commenters?
186
@MegaLindyHopper: look at sex from an evolutionary standpoint. As such, women are the selectors in society. Just grab your ovaries and go for what you _want_. Many (most?) men won't turn down an offer for sex - everyone has 20 minutes ;). You can argue that there are 'standards' and other bullshit working against you, but fuck it - you will succeed because you can get what you want, while a man must work within the confines of his own fucked up social system. select for your preference, not society's - aim for a reasonable catch by YOUR preference. If the guy says no, don't be discouraged. by turning down sex the asshole will not reproduce and genes will never be passed. the world will most likely be a better place without his asshole progeny running around.
do this as often as possible, probabilities approach 1 as time goes on - you'll fuck a guy sooner than you think, but you must be social, which takes time. go to cafes and poach boys if you have to. bring friends - get creative. all these things will build confidence. if you are shy about talking to men you find attractive, get over yourself, loser. you will quickly learn what is clever and what is lame.
do this as often as possible, probabilities approach 1 as time goes on - you'll fuck a guy sooner than you think, but you must be social, which takes time. go to cafes and poach boys if you have to. bring friends - get creative. all these things will build confidence. if you are shy about talking to men you find attractive, get over yourself, loser. you will quickly learn what is clever and what is lame.
187
Dan: Great job, nice column, I also would like to hear a view from a lonely or ostracized woman like the men in this column.
#44: I too am tired of hearing about men who "settled" for a relationship that seemed to fit THEIR needs at 20 and then found out over the lifetime that they have a partner who isn't a partner - nor a stepford spouse. Psychologists and psychiatrists can be helpful, especially with marital therapy, but significant personal therapy is needed to reconcile a "settled" man's view - resulting in divorce or in a changed relationship slightly more partner driven. THESE F**KED UP men with F**KED partners DO NOT give men a bad name.....the combination is well known, it reflects the failures of our generation and of those before us. You paint stereotypes with too broad a brush.
I am in a relationship with an only child. I am frequently at fault much to my amazement, and frequently needed - but not for sex. My libido is higher than hers, so I feel infrequently satisfied even when she is generous - but I do have a woman I respect as a partner.
As long as she maintains a measure of sanity, and is generous in spite of her libido, I won't complain. Tuition, second car, etc....well, she is professional too and she can help with those expenses.
If SHE chooses to walk in the next 30 years, then I'll settle for a trophy wife (my family lives into their 90's and has fathered children that look like their dad into their 80's).
I am not physically abused, I just haven't a full time partner. Ego-centric and petty, she doesn't see how she could be at fault for any unilateral decision making regarding partner choices, but should I make a decision unilaterally (even if fully discussed prior to the event), I suffer for 4 - 6 months while she becomes comfortable with the decision. With each subsequent decision, the previous decision is thrown back at me. Fair? No. But who cares....this is her drama, she is underneath her own issues, a good woman, a great bed partner, and a trustworthy spouse.
Although she does give the term "Shrew" a run for the money. Especially when she is unhappy. Or when something involves HER finances and earnings.
So #44, you may be on to something with your stereotype - or you may just have repeated a false portrayal of a complex issue and foolishly blamed one gender as "at fault". While I doubt you are onto anything other than your own issues with men (which you haven't finished working on), I know that I am up on a soapbox professing I know and understand truth....
I neither know the truth or understand it in relationships, which is why I read Savage Love.
Don't jump to conclusions, look at other's situations and reflect on your own rather than espouse blatant stereotypes.
Peace!
More...
#44: I too am tired of hearing about men who "settled" for a relationship that seemed to fit THEIR needs at 20 and then found out over the lifetime that they have a partner who isn't a partner - nor a stepford spouse. Psychologists and psychiatrists can be helpful, especially with marital therapy, but significant personal therapy is needed to reconcile a "settled" man's view - resulting in divorce or in a changed relationship slightly more partner driven. THESE F**KED UP men with F**KED partners DO NOT give men a bad name.....the combination is well known, it reflects the failures of our generation and of those before us. You paint stereotypes with too broad a brush.
I am in a relationship with an only child. I am frequently at fault much to my amazement, and frequently needed - but not for sex. My libido is higher than hers, so I feel infrequently satisfied even when she is generous - but I do have a woman I respect as a partner.
As long as she maintains a measure of sanity, and is generous in spite of her libido, I won't complain. Tuition, second car, etc....well, she is professional too and she can help with those expenses.
If SHE chooses to walk in the next 30 years, then I'll settle for a trophy wife (my family lives into their 90's and has fathered children that look like their dad into their 80's).
I am not physically abused, I just haven't a full time partner. Ego-centric and petty, she doesn't see how she could be at fault for any unilateral decision making regarding partner choices, but should I make a decision unilaterally (even if fully discussed prior to the event), I suffer for 4 - 6 months while she becomes comfortable with the decision. With each subsequent decision, the previous decision is thrown back at me. Fair? No. But who cares....this is her drama, she is underneath her own issues, a good woman, a great bed partner, and a trustworthy spouse.
Although she does give the term "Shrew" a run for the money. Especially when she is unhappy. Or when something involves HER finances and earnings.
So #44, you may be on to something with your stereotype - or you may just have repeated a false portrayal of a complex issue and foolishly blamed one gender as "at fault". While I doubt you are onto anything other than your own issues with men (which you haven't finished working on), I know that I am up on a soapbox professing I know and understand truth....
I neither know the truth or understand it in relationships, which is why I read Savage Love.
Don't jump to conclusions, look at other's situations and reflect on your own rather than espouse blatant stereotypes.
Peace!
188
chaya760 @ 159,
I hope your weekend went well, too.
Never feel bad, because I refrained from sleep to pray for you. My heart hurts for you, and I felt called to do it.
I spent my weekend whitewater rafting the Lower Deschutes River in central Oregon. I thought and prayed for you there. I also faced one of my fears, a good fear. Despite my love for rafting, I have always feared being thrown from the boat and being sucked under. So, I chose to swim a rapid. It felt like being in a gigantic washing machine. The current took me under, and it was terrifying. I felt so alive and really cold. I feel stronger for facing it, I still have my fear, but it doesn't have such power over me anymore.
I am praying that you find peace, and that you might consider starting over some place new. Do something crazy-good, like jump in and swim your own rapid. I appreciate your comments.
Take care my SLOG friend.
k
I hope your weekend went well, too.
Never feel bad, because I refrained from sleep to pray for you. My heart hurts for you, and I felt called to do it.
I spent my weekend whitewater rafting the Lower Deschutes River in central Oregon. I thought and prayed for you there. I also faced one of my fears, a good fear. Despite my love for rafting, I have always feared being thrown from the boat and being sucked under. So, I chose to swim a rapid. It felt like being in a gigantic washing machine. The current took me under, and it was terrifying. I felt so alive and really cold. I feel stronger for facing it, I still have my fear, but it doesn't have such power over me anymore.
I am praying that you find peace, and that you might consider starting over some place new. Do something crazy-good, like jump in and swim your own rapid. I appreciate your comments.
Take care my SLOG friend.
k
189
Female virgins are assumed to be voluntarilly so. Just our tired old cultural standards beating off. After all, "any woman" can get laid, if she cares to lower her standards enough, or hang out at the bar after the beer goggles get thick, right? Women who are hetersexual face this sort of attitude. Women who live in this "liberated" decade face this attitude. As for us lesbians, well, we are kind of in the hinterland, free to be as lonely as the "guys', sometimes for similar reasons and other times for quite different ones. My earlier sympathetic comments to 60 year old male virgin seem not to have posted. But the jist was to say that your virginity might be regarded as a gift to some very special woman who values it. And a suggestion that you take a cruise, at 60 some women are widows, and their faithful hearts still long for the warmth and companionship they had. Dancing is a great idea. Don't lose yourself in paid sex with perfectly beautiful younger women, work on what you long for, presuming you long for a relationship versus just a sex fling. If---conversely, you want a sex fling and the education of love-making, then, nothing wrong with paying for it if it does not make you feel cheap or make the woman feel used. Would you pay a golf pro, or a computer expert? Think of it like that. But---if the thought seems wrong, then it probably is wrong for you. Try those other more ordinary methods first then, faith groups that have a dinner club, or partner dancing, or even a small "pub" type bar with people you feel comfortable with or attracted to. It is only about $5.00 to buy a woman a drink, and yet the social anxiety is very similar to the other parts of learning to express interest and attraction. Will she nessesarilly talk to you if you buy her a drink? No. Not always. But it is valuable social practice. And mostly, yes, people who you buy drinks for do chat a bit. The statistics favor you at 60. If you have a decent income, clean clothing, and some manners, you will fall into the very eligable bachelor catagory for women your own age or about 10 years to either side of it. If you are stalled out on a Barbie doll fantasy, seeking a woman of the age you were when you failed to "get laid" in college, then yeah, you may wind up spending money to get what you want. Once you decide what you want, and cease viewing virginity as a personal flaw, I think you will find it relatively easy to get what you want. It is probably somewhat flattering to a woman's ego to be your "first". Good luck!
More...
190
@ Chaya
Alzheimer's is a bitch. My grandmother had it for 12 years. Watched her dissolve into a pudding. Literally. Couldn't even talk at the end. She went from knowing 5 languages fluently to regressing to her mother-tongue to mumbling incoherently. She eventually died from possibly ovarian cancer, not Alzheimer's. Only reason we knew she had it was because she was moaning in pain. I arranged for hospice care remotely from VA. She lived in MN. My mom couldn't do anything; she didn't know what to do. I've always been the parent in that family. Pretty much since I was 15. I was 29-30 at the time. I'm 33 now.
When I went to the funeral, I got a tattoo that day. Then I was high at the ceremony because I didn't want to feel anything. My mom also wanted pics of the body the previous day. That side of the family is one big circus.
I'm also manic-depressive, so I get the whole meds/depression/wanting to off-yourself thing. And the meds not working. Happens frequently. I've been manic-depressive for over 10 years. Probably since I was 19 or 20. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 30. Life was hell. Up, down, up, down... alcoholic, drugs, can't eat, can't sleep... another reason I was high at the funeral.
The only reason I stay alive now when I swing downwards is because of my 'brother' who's on death row. We've been in touch for a little over 2 and a half years. He reminds me that he fights for me. Funny. He's the one with a shortened lifespan and he is staying alive for me. And he gets up every morning because I give him a reason.
If you don't have a shrink, get one. I hate doctors and I got one. It took nearly 3 years until I talked myself into it. Then another 2 until I got a proper diagnosis. I still have relapses. This is not something that will ever go away. But it isn't something where I can just take my meds and everything will be okay. I need supervision. The same with major depression. It needs to be watched and regulated. Too many doctors just pump you full of drugs and let you walk out the door. That's what my first doctor did. I didn't even know what I was taking or what it was supposed to do.
And a lot of people are going to give you advice. You don't have to take mine. Do what you will with it. Only a suggestion from a crazy. It's all in my head anyway. :)
More...
Alzheimer's is a bitch. My grandmother had it for 12 years. Watched her dissolve into a pudding. Literally. Couldn't even talk at the end. She went from knowing 5 languages fluently to regressing to her mother-tongue to mumbling incoherently. She eventually died from possibly ovarian cancer, not Alzheimer's. Only reason we knew she had it was because she was moaning in pain. I arranged for hospice care remotely from VA. She lived in MN. My mom couldn't do anything; she didn't know what to do. I've always been the parent in that family. Pretty much since I was 15. I was 29-30 at the time. I'm 33 now.
When I went to the funeral, I got a tattoo that day. Then I was high at the ceremony because I didn't want to feel anything. My mom also wanted pics of the body the previous day. That side of the family is one big circus.
I'm also manic-depressive, so I get the whole meds/depression/wanting to off-yourself thing. And the meds not working. Happens frequently. I've been manic-depressive for over 10 years. Probably since I was 19 or 20. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 30. Life was hell. Up, down, up, down... alcoholic, drugs, can't eat, can't sleep... another reason I was high at the funeral.
The only reason I stay alive now when I swing downwards is because of my 'brother' who's on death row. We've been in touch for a little over 2 and a half years. He reminds me that he fights for me. Funny. He's the one with a shortened lifespan and he is staying alive for me. And he gets up every morning because I give him a reason.
If you don't have a shrink, get one. I hate doctors and I got one. It took nearly 3 years until I talked myself into it. Then another 2 until I got a proper diagnosis. I still have relapses. This is not something that will ever go away. But it isn't something where I can just take my meds and everything will be okay. I need supervision. The same with major depression. It needs to be watched and regulated. Too many doctors just pump you full of drugs and let you walk out the door. That's what my first doctor did. I didn't even know what I was taking or what it was supposed to do.
And a lot of people are going to give you advice. You don't have to take mine. Do what you will with it. Only a suggestion from a crazy. It's all in my head anyway. :)
191
@ Chaya
Alzheimer's is a bitch. My grandmother had it for 12 years. Watched her dissolve into a pudding. Literally. Couldn't even talk at the end. She went from knowing 5 languages fluently to regressing to her mother-tongue to mumbling incoherently. She eventually died from possibly ovarian cancer, not Alzheimer's. Only reason we knew she had it was because she was moaning in pain. I arranged for hospice care remotely from VA. She lived in MN. My mom couldn't do anything; she didn't know what to do. I've always been the parent in that family. Pretty much since I was 15. I was 29-30 at the time. I'm 33 now.
When I went to the funeral, I got a tattoo that day. Then I was high at the ceremony because I didn't want to feel anything. My mom also wanted pics of the body the previous day. That side of the family is one big circus.
I'm also manic-depressive, so I get the whole meds/depression/wanting to off-yourself thing. And the meds not working. Happens frequently. I've been manic-depressive for over 10 years. Probably since I was 19 or 20. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 30. Life was hell. Up, down, up, down... alcoholic, drugs, can't eat, can't sleep... another reason I was high at the funeral.
The only reason I stay alive now when I swing downwards is because of my 'brother' who's on death row. We've been in touch for a little over 2 and a half years. He reminds me that he fights for me. Funny. He's the one with a shortened lifespan and he is staying alive for me. And he gets up every morning because I give him a reason.
If you don't have a shrink, get one. I hate doctors and I got one. It took nearly 3 years until I talked myself into it. Then another 2 until I got a proper diagnosis. I still have relapses. This is not something that will ever go away. But it isn't something where I can just take my meds and everything will be okay. I need supervision. The same with major depression. It needs to be watched and regulated. Too many doctors just pump you full of drugs and let you walk out the door. That's what my first doctor did. I didn't even know what I was taking or what it was supposed to do.
And a lot of people are going to give you advice. You don't have to take mine. Do what you will with it. Only a suggestion from a crazy. It's all in my head anyway. :)
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Alzheimer's is a bitch. My grandmother had it for 12 years. Watched her dissolve into a pudding. Literally. Couldn't even talk at the end. She went from knowing 5 languages fluently to regressing to her mother-tongue to mumbling incoherently. She eventually died from possibly ovarian cancer, not Alzheimer's. Only reason we knew she had it was because she was moaning in pain. I arranged for hospice care remotely from VA. She lived in MN. My mom couldn't do anything; she didn't know what to do. I've always been the parent in that family. Pretty much since I was 15. I was 29-30 at the time. I'm 33 now.
When I went to the funeral, I got a tattoo that day. Then I was high at the ceremony because I didn't want to feel anything. My mom also wanted pics of the body the previous day. That side of the family is one big circus.
I'm also manic-depressive, so I get the whole meds/depression/wanting to off-yourself thing. And the meds not working. Happens frequently. I've been manic-depressive for over 10 years. Probably since I was 19 or 20. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 30. Life was hell. Up, down, up, down... alcoholic, drugs, can't eat, can't sleep... another reason I was high at the funeral.
The only reason I stay alive now when I swing downwards is because of my 'brother' who's on death row. We've been in touch for a little over 2 and a half years. He reminds me that he fights for me. Funny. He's the one with a shortened lifespan and he is staying alive for me. And he gets up every morning because I give him a reason.
If you don't have a shrink, get one. I hate doctors and I got one. It took nearly 3 years until I talked myself into it. Then another 2 until I got a proper diagnosis. I still have relapses. This is not something that will ever go away. But it isn't something where I can just take my meds and everything will be okay. I need supervision. The same with major depression. It needs to be watched and regulated. Too many doctors just pump you full of drugs and let you walk out the door. That's what my first doctor did. I didn't even know what I was taking or what it was supposed to do.
And a lot of people are going to give you advice. You don't have to take mine. Do what you will with it. Only a suggestion from a crazy. It's all in my head anyway. :)
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Dear Everyone, we all owe Dan a big thanks, not just for his advice, but for publishing all of the real sides to sex and how it affects relationships. Even the act of writing such letters has helped the authors of such letters, even the ones that go unanswered. I love the isolation theme of this week because it is so real to anyone human.
Dear SOB, ALONE, STPIWTGO, you are not alone. I can say the best advice is what you've started, be aware of your feelings and isolation, get professional counseling help and get your body in shape at a GYM or outdoors. And spill your guts to people you can trust in the same way you spilled your guts to Dan.
Dear SOB, ALONE, STPIWTGO, you are not alone. I can say the best advice is what you've started, be aware of your feelings and isolation, get professional counseling help and get your body in shape at a GYM or outdoors. And spill your guts to people you can trust in the same way you spilled your guts to Dan.
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>Also, in my experience, relationships are overrated.
>Enuf said.
>Posted by The Wet One on July 29, 2009 at 6:30 PM | Report
By your own admission, you have almost no experience by which to judge. One girlfriend was a "golddigger" (which if true, doesn't qualify as a real relationship) and the other was a "psycho".
I have some other advice for straight men who are chronically lonely:
1- Stop trying to date models and strippers. If you are a "3" you should be looking for other 3's.
2- If you still live with your mommy, no one will want you. Straighten out the rest of your life, get some independence and move out first.
3- Stop being so obsessed with male-dominated hobbies. If you spend all your free time going to Sci-Fi conventions, then of course all the women you meet will already have boyfriends. DUH!
4- Stop being so derisive of the women who have showed you some interest in the past.
5- Ask yourself - why would anyone want me? What do I have to bring to the table? If you can't answer that question, then you need to focus on fixing what's wrong with you before you worry about dating.
6- If you follow 1-5 already and you really are a good guy, well then ask a friend to help you brush up on your social skills.
Someone asked...how do you "be more confident" if you're not - I think #5 is the key -- either something is wrong with you that needs fixing or your lack of confidence is misplaced and needs to be set aside. So either you fix what's wrong or you decide you don't need fixing. Either one should lead to an increase in confidence.
>Enuf said.
>Posted by The Wet One on July 29, 2009 at 6:30 PM | Report
By your own admission, you have almost no experience by which to judge. One girlfriend was a "golddigger" (which if true, doesn't qualify as a real relationship) and the other was a "psycho".
I have some other advice for straight men who are chronically lonely:
1- Stop trying to date models and strippers. If you are a "3" you should be looking for other 3's.
2- If you still live with your mommy, no one will want you. Straighten out the rest of your life, get some independence and move out first.
3- Stop being so obsessed with male-dominated hobbies. If you spend all your free time going to Sci-Fi conventions, then of course all the women you meet will already have boyfriends. DUH!
4- Stop being so derisive of the women who have showed you some interest in the past.
5- Ask yourself - why would anyone want me? What do I have to bring to the table? If you can't answer that question, then you need to focus on fixing what's wrong with you before you worry about dating.
6- If you follow 1-5 already and you really are a good guy, well then ask a friend to help you brush up on your social skills.
Someone asked...how do you "be more confident" if you're not - I think #5 is the key -- either something is wrong with you that needs fixing or your lack of confidence is misplaced and needs to be set aside. So either you fix what's wrong or you decide you don't need fixing. Either one should lead to an increase in confidence.
194
ThoughtfulGoddess posted something so good, it deserves repeating:
"I'm surprised that in all these comments, no one, not even Dan, has suggested a simple solution: these guys need to focus on making friends. Platonic friends. Female friends, male friends, any kind of friends. It sounds like all three of these guys are socially isolated.
Being able to make new friends is the best way to meet new people who might become more than friends, or might introduce you to someone who can be more than a friend.
Being able to maintain platonic friendships will help you develop emotional intimacy.
Having close platonic friendships with women will teach you to respect women, to understand women, to not fear women, and to understand that women are NOT just potential sex partners.
Not that it's necessarily easy to make new friends. But that's where you should start."
"I'm surprised that in all these comments, no one, not even Dan, has suggested a simple solution: these guys need to focus on making friends. Platonic friends. Female friends, male friends, any kind of friends. It sounds like all three of these guys are socially isolated.
Being able to make new friends is the best way to meet new people who might become more than friends, or might introduce you to someone who can be more than a friend.
Being able to maintain platonic friendships will help you develop emotional intimacy.
Having close platonic friendships with women will teach you to respect women, to understand women, to not fear women, and to understand that women are NOT just potential sex partners.
Not that it's necessarily easy to make new friends. But that's where you should start."
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Men & women cannot be friends. Why would a straight male want a female friend anyway?
Second verse, same as the first: the solution to all of this is a plane ride to Bangkok or Manila.
Second verse, same as the first: the solution to all of this is a plane ride to Bangkok or Manila.
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Someone else posted this but bears repeating. Go on a vacation to Thailand for 2 weeks. There are a multitude of western men who have become regular visitors, or even moved their permanently, and the number one reason is the availability of woman - tons upon tons of conveniently located sex workers - and also tons of just nice girls who for some reason, (mainly financial), are willing to spend time and even become a gf. Many of these western men are the lower dregs of society (but some doing very well), and have had life changing experiences due to the vastly different way that the genders interact and behave and attitudes - whether your preference is gay, straight or transgendered.
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Dan, I wish this guy had read your column:
Neighbors described 48-year-old George Sodini, who worked in a law firm's finance department, as anti-social, and the Web page in his name showcased a resume setting forth his credentials as an unhappy loner. It listed his date of death Aug. 4, 2009 and his status of "Never married."
He complained of not having a girlfriend since 1984, not having a date since May 2008 and not having sex for 19 years.
"Women just don't like me. There are 30 million desirable women in the US (my estimate) and I cannot find one," he wrote. The page ended with the words "Death Lives!"
On Tuesday night, the gunman walked into his gym wearing workout gear and a headband, entered a "Latin impact" dance aerobics class and placed a duffel bag on the ground. He rooted around in the bag for a moment, turned off the lights, took out at least two guns and started shooting.
Neighbors described 48-year-old George Sodini, who worked in a law firm's finance department, as anti-social, and the Web page in his name showcased a resume setting forth his credentials as an unhappy loner. It listed his date of death Aug. 4, 2009 and his status of "Never married."
He complained of not having a girlfriend since 1984, not having a date since May 2008 and not having sex for 19 years.
"Women just don't like me. There are 30 million desirable women in the US (my estimate) and I cannot find one," he wrote. The page ended with the words "Death Lives!"
On Tuesday night, the gunman walked into his gym wearing workout gear and a headband, entered a "Latin impact" dance aerobics class and placed a duffel bag on the ground. He rooted around in the bag for a moment, turned off the lights, took out at least two guns and started shooting.
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To all and sundry:
* If you're married and you speak of your partner with disdain and contempt, get unmarried as quickly as possible because s/he deserves better than that.
* If you don't like yourself, it is irrational to expect others to like you
* guys, women who are worth your time have instincts, and we listen to them - if you're being "ignored" by women, ask a woman why - it'll probably be something about "vibes" and "uncomfortable". Listen to what they have to say, ask questions, and put the information to use - if you are told that action A is unnerving, discontinue taking action A. They say that the male human is the more logical, but I frequently find that to be untrue.
* talk to "women" as if they were "human" - just like you'd talk to one of your buddies (sans flatulence/boob jokes). Pretend we're just guys at a costume party, if that helps.
* If you're married and you speak of your partner with disdain and contempt, get unmarried as quickly as possible because s/he deserves better than that.
* If you don't like yourself, it is irrational to expect others to like you
* guys, women who are worth your time have instincts, and we listen to them - if you're being "ignored" by women, ask a woman why - it'll probably be something about "vibes" and "uncomfortable". Listen to what they have to say, ask questions, and put the information to use - if you are told that action A is unnerving, discontinue taking action A. They say that the male human is the more logical, but I frequently find that to be untrue.
* talk to "women" as if they were "human" - just like you'd talk to one of your buddies (sans flatulence/boob jokes). Pretend we're just guys at a costume party, if that helps.
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I've had long and short term relationships, but have not had sex for **years**.
Re: hiring a sexual surrogate or sex worker.
Ignorance (legal/moral/potential STD's) stops me. Likely though, in theory, these are non issues under the right circumstances. Bottom line: I need to re-establish sexual confidence, learn more about it, and wrong or right, learn more about NSA sex.
Any pointers on what to look for in a competent sexual surrogate or pro? I need someone to let me make "mistakes" (in a good way ), help me get my feet wet again, and show me it's OK to "just have sex".
Years ago, circumstances pushed me to sever almost all connections with people. I've made positive progress (with pro help) but remain somewhat un-connected. Am finding middle ground, but need to keep at it. I feel sexual healing is part of my recovery.
FWIW, a few things I've learned and continue to learn about:
- Get over the fear. Learn to trust. Step at a time. Do it in a healthy way. (as for sexual function maybe pro/surrogate plays a role here?)
- Learn to read people/situations for what/who they are. Remain aware. Base your choices on awareness, logic and instinct.
Lack Of Trust, Abundant Fear, Abating
Re: hiring a sexual surrogate or sex worker.
Ignorance (legal/moral/potential STD's) stops me. Likely though, in theory, these are non issues under the right circumstances. Bottom line: I need to re-establish sexual confidence, learn more about it, and wrong or right, learn more about NSA sex.
Any pointers on what to look for in a competent sexual surrogate or pro? I need someone to let me make "mistakes" (in a good way ), help me get my feet wet again, and show me it's OK to "just have sex".
Years ago, circumstances pushed me to sever almost all connections with people. I've made positive progress (with pro help) but remain somewhat un-connected. Am finding middle ground, but need to keep at it. I feel sexual healing is part of my recovery.
FWIW, a few things I've learned and continue to learn about:
- Get over the fear. Learn to trust. Step at a time. Do it in a healthy way. (as for sexual function maybe pro/surrogate plays a role here?)
- Learn to read people/situations for what/who they are. Remain aware. Base your choices on awareness, logic and instinct.
Lack Of Trust, Abundant Fear, Abating
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Dan,
Thanks for writing on this neglected topic. It took me a week to
write a comment because it hit too close to home. It helped me, keep up the good writing.
Thanks for writing on this neglected topic. It took me a week to
write a comment because it hit too close to home. It helped me, keep up the good writing.
203
This is a very interesting selection of letters this week. It strikes me how often people isolate and don't get the help they need. In light of what happened in the health club in Pittsburgh, it is SO important for people to take care of themselves if they find themselves slipping into the crazy zone! Some people can't see that it's happening, but some (like the writers of the letters) can....
...also...I am a married guy who surfs the dating sites for "kicks" - I know, gross...but you would not believe how many GORGEOUS, seemingly intelligent, caring, thoughtful, well-spoken, and downright hot and available women are on these sites. I am talking about the respectable sites like Match.com and eHarmony. Truly. There are so many HOT women out there looking for guys and the number one word they use all the time is honest. They don't say "tall, dark, and handsome". Only a handful say "looking for Prince Charming". Most of them just want an honest, presentable guy that they can talk to and yeah, it helps if you like kids because many of them are single moms and daddy was a sperm donor or a deadbeat.
So. There is no need to be lonely. Get medicine for your social anxiety and go fishing. Relax. Everybody is nervous meeting new people. Guys...there are SO MANY BEAUTIFUL WOMEN OUT THERE...really. You just have to take the step and meet them. Don't expect them to be perfect. Just be honest, be yourself, take a shower and get a new shirt. Get some therapy and try to be your best self. I think what happens next if you show up for your love life might surprise and delight you....
...also...I am a married guy who surfs the dating sites for "kicks" - I know, gross...but you would not believe how many GORGEOUS, seemingly intelligent, caring, thoughtful, well-spoken, and downright hot and available women are on these sites. I am talking about the respectable sites like Match.com and eHarmony. Truly. There are so many HOT women out there looking for guys and the number one word they use all the time is honest. They don't say "tall, dark, and handsome". Only a handful say "looking for Prince Charming". Most of them just want an honest, presentable guy that they can talk to and yeah, it helps if you like kids because many of them are single moms and daddy was a sperm donor or a deadbeat.
So. There is no need to be lonely. Get medicine for your social anxiety and go fishing. Relax. Everybody is nervous meeting new people. Guys...there are SO MANY BEAUTIFUL WOMEN OUT THERE...really. You just have to take the step and meet them. Don't expect them to be perfect. Just be honest, be yourself, take a shower and get a new shirt. Get some therapy and try to be your best self. I think what happens next if you show up for your love life might surprise and delight you....
204
Chaya760...
Go to YOU TUBE. In the search box, type in "Mooney M20J".
Hit the search button. Among the videos on the right will be one listed as "Night flight over Melbourne, Australia".
You get to see the city at night. I see someone gave you an invite to the city. Consider going. Check it out.
I've always found that a good idea has legs. If its a good idea today, it will be a good idea tomorrow. If its a good idea tomorrow, it will be a good idea next week. If its a good idea next week, it will also be a good idea next year. So if offing yourself IS a good idea, then it can wait.
Between now and then or whenever, you've got a lot of things to do, see, experience, live, realize. And those will keep you busy for a good, long time.
I hit Sydney on R&R in '69. Great people, great city, great fun. Didn't make it to Melbourne tho...
You'll have a great time. Check it out.
Go to YOU TUBE. In the search box, type in "Mooney M20J".
Hit the search button. Among the videos on the right will be one listed as "Night flight over Melbourne, Australia".
You get to see the city at night. I see someone gave you an invite to the city. Consider going. Check it out.
I've always found that a good idea has legs. If its a good idea today, it will be a good idea tomorrow. If its a good idea tomorrow, it will be a good idea next week. If its a good idea next week, it will also be a good idea next year. So if offing yourself IS a good idea, then it can wait.
Between now and then or whenever, you've got a lot of things to do, see, experience, live, realize. And those will keep you busy for a good, long time.
I hit Sydney on R&R in '69. Great people, great city, great fun. Didn't make it to Melbourne tho...
You'll have a great time. Check it out.
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dear beatin and onanist.
when i was was younger i felt a little like you do, and it was a very difficult problem for me that took many years for me to resolve. I think it is worth considering whether it is not just low self esteem and fear of failure that makes sex so terrifying, but also the pressure you put on yourself to project an air of confidence in sexual encounters -so at odds with your true feelings - that makes this fear so debilitating.
what if you were to place a personal ad that began with:
"socially awkward sexually terrified nice guy would like to meet a friendly girl for clumsy but enthusiastic sex..."
i found that being honest about how i felt, and being accepted in spite of this was a transformative experience for me
when i was was younger i felt a little like you do, and it was a very difficult problem for me that took many years for me to resolve. I think it is worth considering whether it is not just low self esteem and fear of failure that makes sex so terrifying, but also the pressure you put on yourself to project an air of confidence in sexual encounters -so at odds with your true feelings - that makes this fear so debilitating.
what if you were to place a personal ad that began with:
"socially awkward sexually terrified nice guy would like to meet a friendly girl for clumsy but enthusiastic sex..."
i found that being honest about how i felt, and being accepted in spite of this was a transformative experience for me
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There is too much emphasy on sex in this society, that's why some people now choose the path of asexuality. I think all these loners wouldn't have these problems if our society wasn't sex obsessed. I've been married for 17 years now, and I don't have sexual relationships with my wife anymore, because I simply don't find her sexually attractive nor good-looking, although she is a nice person. The world doesn't grinds to a halt because of that, I go see some hooker from time to time and it makes me feel very good.
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I don't think you can give any one definitive answer, as people are coming from widely different perspectives and life experiences. IF their top of mind is being a virgin, or having sex, then a sex worker may be a solution. Of course, some are going to consider paying to lose their virginity to be a failure. There are lots of things that you can buy that people would rather earn through their actions. There are also lots of unintentional traps. For example, people may say, "just be yourself", but what they really mean is, be an idealised, customised version of your core self, be your best self. But even then, suppose your interests lean heavily to the male geekery side - computers, and D&D, and science fiction, and that whole package. If you're in your 20s, that's maybe less of a problem, as the culture has broadened considerably, and everyone uses computers and goes to SF movies these days. Which is the other issue - the dating experience at 40 is very different from the options at 20, whether it's 2009 or 1989. For example, "make friends, hang out with them" - yeah that's great, except your friends at 40 are all married, with kids, and do married-with-kids stuff with their other married-with-kids friends. It is true that the net is enabling people to connect around interests, but again, people in their 20s have lots of time to wander around various interest groups and make connections. People in their 40s are mid-career, they're busy. Even if they're alone, they're busy. Plus which, think about what someone at 40 who has had experiences somewhere between "never kissed a girl" and a few fumbled relationships - and think about his peers in his age group: women who are divorced, women with kids, women who, for the most part, have been having relationships and sex for what, 20 years or more? That is a pretty wide chasm to bridge. I don't buy that it's necessarily life-success related or that it's all Aspergers either. I find the involuntary celibacy ("incel") ideas more compelling. There are people who just never "get" socialising or at least they don't under it in their teens, and by the time they figure out what it's about, they're decades past the easy socialisation opportunities of their 20s. If it's just sex, then fine, pay for it. If it's just orgasms, then keep on masturbating. If it's about having a real relationship, you're talking about a much more complex path for someone to follow, if they're already mid-life. (Note: this comment also posted to my blog.)
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the comments section is one of the MANY reasons i love dan savage. instead of the ignorant, lame and cruel rage that dominates the comments on so many venues, Dan's readers try to impart useful information and advice and seek insight. I was especially moved by Dan's and his readers responses to these lonely guys. Carry on, all of you!
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TO the guys out there calling prostitutes cheap, whores, etc: knock it off. Your name calling isn't about them - it's about YOU, and your feelings of self-loathing that you have to PAY for sex. Stop projecting your issues onto the prostitutes. Ever kiss your boss's ass? Sucked up for a paycheck or a bigger bonus? They you're a whore, too. Get over it! You pay for sex. Who gives a shit? People pay for pedicures, and that's waaaaay nastier in my opinion! Maybe, if you're a 60-yr-old virgin and pay for some sex, you'll learn a thing or two or three, and then have the confidence to ask a woman on a date and get laid the traditional way. :)
Prositutes are people, too! :)
Prositutes are people, too! :)
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Below is a message originally sent to a friend of mine telling him my take on Sandini. One thing I want to add and emphasize, is that like Savage, many people focus on what is wrong with the man. As my piece below expresses, however, there also needs to be a focus on the other side. In Sandini's case, women did think he was nice. Though one person, by asking if he was picked on, seemed to be questioning his manhood. I have had similar experiences to Sandini and finally figured out that there are many women out there really attracted to bad apples. As I also mention below, this may be something instinctual but likely a combination of that and the cutthroat society we live in. My over-arching point being, yes, there are many men going through what Sandini did and they'll have to find a way to suck it up. However, there needs to be a discussion as to why so many women spurn "nice guys." It not just that all these guys lack social grace. There is just something there; I've experienced it and I have seen it. I feel it is something that needs to be addressed because it is connected to the direction our species is headed - - self-destruction (think climate change, Peak Oil Nuclear war, fill-in-the-blank). Anyhow, read-on and critique.
You Know I have been reading about this poor bastard George Sandini (The Pittsburgh Killer - http://exiledonline.com/revenge-of-the-n…) and I kinda emphasize with the cat. Obviously, he went over the edge but I've gone through much of the same thing he has. The shame of it is, he nearly had it. He nearly got it that a lot of women are attracted to creeps and that is their problem not yours. I think it is partly an instinctual thing of wanting a protector who will not flinch at fucking someone up. But like everything else about our species, it has to viewed through the prism of society, This is a society where outright criminality is rewarded and the more ruthless you are the better. It magnifies the worst in all of us and then normalizes the resulting anomaly. He nearly came to the realization that since this seems to be the state-of-affairs, you shouldn't blame yourself. Imagine, not getting any head for over 20 fucking years. If I had known this guy I could have helped him. I would have told him 300 bucks buys you any kinda ass you want. Hey listen, better that than to get to the point he got to. Besides, there is no such thing as a free lunch. You pay for everything you get even if you do not get everything you paid for. Especially, in a society setup like this one.
I am going out, haphazardly so far, with a woman right now and I've already spent 300 pesos and still have my cock in my right hand (sometimes the left lol). It's kool. I am just saying you got to see the forest for the trees. So with women, I am to the point captured by that 1970's bumper sticker: "Grass, Cash or Ass - No one rides for free." Studies have shown that women tend to marry above their original class. Though that may deceptive since women still only earn on average about 3/4 of what a man earns so there is no way but up I suppose. Still, the bottom line is that any woman you're with is going to get her pound of flesh from you or else she 's not likely to hang around. Of course, this is true for men also. And that is OK -- as long as there is reciprocity. Too many times however, and I just experienced this recently, you have someone that wants to hang around you that drains you emotionally, even if not monetarily, but then when it comes time for you to find some succor, doesn't want to do her part. All of this has to do with entropy, like any living thing we have to intake more energy than we expend or we will perish. If one cannot handle one's own entropy individually, the next best thing is to find some sucker that'll do it for you. This is what elites do in the extreme. They make everyone else pay for their bullshit. But how much is enough? $1 Billion? $2 Billion? Man, I could see someone like Henry "Hood Robin" Paulson somehow make it to heaven and then upon reaching the front of the line tell God "hey, you're in my chair man." Check out Sandini's diary here: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=939_12494…. Make sure you go all the way to the bottom and and tell me if you see where the irony is. I just have to laugh at this shit. No wonder people just lose it.
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You Know I have been reading about this poor bastard George Sandini (The Pittsburgh Killer - http://exiledonline.com/revenge-of-the-n…) and I kinda emphasize with the cat. Obviously, he went over the edge but I've gone through much of the same thing he has. The shame of it is, he nearly had it. He nearly got it that a lot of women are attracted to creeps and that is their problem not yours. I think it is partly an instinctual thing of wanting a protector who will not flinch at fucking someone up. But like everything else about our species, it has to viewed through the prism of society, This is a society where outright criminality is rewarded and the more ruthless you are the better. It magnifies the worst in all of us and then normalizes the resulting anomaly. He nearly came to the realization that since this seems to be the state-of-affairs, you shouldn't blame yourself. Imagine, not getting any head for over 20 fucking years. If I had known this guy I could have helped him. I would have told him 300 bucks buys you any kinda ass you want. Hey listen, better that than to get to the point he got to. Besides, there is no such thing as a free lunch. You pay for everything you get even if you do not get everything you paid for. Especially, in a society setup like this one.
I am going out, haphazardly so far, with a woman right now and I've already spent 300 pesos and still have my cock in my right hand (sometimes the left lol). It's kool. I am just saying you got to see the forest for the trees. So with women, I am to the point captured by that 1970's bumper sticker: "Grass, Cash or Ass - No one rides for free." Studies have shown that women tend to marry above their original class. Though that may deceptive since women still only earn on average about 3/4 of what a man earns so there is no way but up I suppose. Still, the bottom line is that any woman you're with is going to get her pound of flesh from you or else she 's not likely to hang around. Of course, this is true for men also. And that is OK -- as long as there is reciprocity. Too many times however, and I just experienced this recently, you have someone that wants to hang around you that drains you emotionally, even if not monetarily, but then when it comes time for you to find some succor, doesn't want to do her part. All of this has to do with entropy, like any living thing we have to intake more energy than we expend or we will perish. If one cannot handle one's own entropy individually, the next best thing is to find some sucker that'll do it for you. This is what elites do in the extreme. They make everyone else pay for their bullshit. But how much is enough? $1 Billion? $2 Billion? Man, I could see someone like Henry "Hood Robin" Paulson somehow make it to heaven and then upon reaching the front of the line tell God "hey, you're in my chair man." Check out Sandini's diary here: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=939_12494…. Make sure you go all the way to the bottom and and tell me if you see where the irony is. I just have to laugh at this shit. No wonder people just lose it.
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I've been thinking about this lately, and I want to throw it out there for these two guys.
I was a virgin until 22. It was my goal to lose my virginity before my birthday, and I did, nearly a week before the deadline. Every year, that had been my goal - lose my virginity by my birthday.
The reason was extreme social prejudice. I wasn't an outcast, exactly, but my virginity was the butt of every joke. It's hard to explain how dehumanizing it can be because it sounds so small. Needless to say it damaged me, seriously.
The girl I slept with was someone I really wasn't attracted to. She was literally insane - she had been institutionalized, but I had liked her before I knew that so I decided not to discriminate.
In the end, I feel like I sold my soul in an attempt just to be normal. I did. I thought losing my virginity would help me integrate into society better, but all it did was drive me crazier.
It's not worth the struggle. Don't sell your soul for sex. Just don't.
I was a virgin until 22. It was my goal to lose my virginity before my birthday, and I did, nearly a week before the deadline. Every year, that had been my goal - lose my virginity by my birthday.
The reason was extreme social prejudice. I wasn't an outcast, exactly, but my virginity was the butt of every joke. It's hard to explain how dehumanizing it can be because it sounds so small. Needless to say it damaged me, seriously.
The girl I slept with was someone I really wasn't attracted to. She was literally insane - she had been institutionalized, but I had liked her before I knew that so I decided not to discriminate.
In the end, I feel like I sold my soul in an attempt just to be normal. I did. I thought losing my virginity would help me integrate into society better, but all it did was drive me crazier.
It's not worth the struggle. Don't sell your soul for sex. Just don't.
213
I think the ability to perform in bedroom is very much controlled by mind. Self confidence and ability to control how excited you get with just foreplay will help. However, the best to improve it is with practice.
214
I would like to invite STPIWTGO to a cup of coffee. Yes, just coffee. If he is real, has some sense of humor and is polite enough to accept a woman invitation, he can do it !
215
Dear A Lifelong Onanist Needs Explanations,
I totally feel your pain. I am a woman, not that cute but not that bad, who had no real boyfriend until I was 31. In my late 20's I realized that my only hope of being content at best was to find some way to accept that I would be alone forever and to be okay with it. Somehow, I did that. I looked at my friends with asshole partners, who couldn't do what they wanted to when they wanted to, to people who required another person to be okay in their own skin. I learned how to be okay in my own skin, knowing that there was no guarantee that "there is somebody for everyone." That is total horseshit. There is only you - and you need to be okay with that. Maybe, once you are okay with you, somebody else will be okay with - or in love with you. Maybe not. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with you, it just mean it didn't work out. You didn't meet the right person. Sex with hookers is hot when it's what you've got. But in the end you have you - and you have to make that work.
I totally feel your pain. I am a woman, not that cute but not that bad, who had no real boyfriend until I was 31. In my late 20's I realized that my only hope of being content at best was to find some way to accept that I would be alone forever and to be okay with it. Somehow, I did that. I looked at my friends with asshole partners, who couldn't do what they wanted to when they wanted to, to people who required another person to be okay in their own skin. I learned how to be okay in my own skin, knowing that there was no guarantee that "there is somebody for everyone." That is total horseshit. There is only you - and you need to be okay with that. Maybe, once you are okay with you, somebody else will be okay with - or in love with you. Maybe not. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with you, it just mean it didn't work out. You didn't meet the right person. Sex with hookers is hot when it's what you've got. But in the end you have you - and you have to make that work.
216
Voice @145: I'd just like to point out that your odds of catching an STD from a decent sex worker such as a brothel girl or an independent escort, are actually lower than the odds of catching one from a 'bar slut'.
Sex workers use condoms religiously not only for intercourse, but also for oral sex. They examine their clients for any visual or tactile signs of infection. They also have frequent STD screening.
A girl you've picked up at a bar might have gone home with any number of guys without taking any of these steps to protect herself or others. It is a sex worker's business to ensure that not only is she safe from the nastier diseases, but that her clients are also safe. Her reputation and livelihood depend on it.
A stranger you met at a bar has no investment in your health, and might not care that she is passing infection around. After all, she probably caught it from somebody who didn't care about her physical safety, so why should she care for yours?
Sex workers use condoms religiously not only for intercourse, but also for oral sex. They examine their clients for any visual or tactile signs of infection. They also have frequent STD screening.
A girl you've picked up at a bar might have gone home with any number of guys without taking any of these steps to protect herself or others. It is a sex worker's business to ensure that not only is she safe from the nastier diseases, but that her clients are also safe. Her reputation and livelihood depend on it.
A stranger you met at a bar has no investment in your health, and might not care that she is passing infection around. After all, she probably caught it from somebody who didn't care about her physical safety, so why should she care for yours?
217
I'd like to remind everyone of supernovas detonating this very instant in far off galaxies and laying to waste incredibly huge regions of space, some of it possibly containing planets with populations full of sexually frustrated beings.
What I'm saying is don't worry, the great fucking everyone is pining over is coming!
What I'm saying is don't worry, the great fucking everyone is pining over is coming!
218
I'd like to remind everyone of supernovas detonating this very instant in far off galaxies and laying to waste incredibly huge regions of space, some of it possibly containing planets with populations full of sexually frustrated beings.
What I'm saying is don't worry, the great fucking everyone is pining over is coming!
What I'm saying is don't worry, the great fucking everyone is pining over is coming!
219
i just wanted to share one of my favorite tennessee williams quote (from camino real):
"when so many are lonely as seem to be lonely, it would be inexcusably selfish to be lonely alone"
also, ONLINE DATING PEOPLE, this is why online dating exists!
"when so many are lonely as seem to be lonely, it would be inexcusably selfish to be lonely alone"
also, ONLINE DATING PEOPLE, this is why online dating exists!
220
@chaya. my heart goes out to you. i've suffered from depression and anxiety for a long time and know how lonely it can be in this world.
221
@chaya. my heart goes out to you. i suffer from depression and anxiety for a long time and know how lonely it can be in this world. your post scares me. i really hope things get better for you.
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