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A Brush with Perversity

February 18, 2010

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My boyfriend and I have been together for nine months. We are gay. We live in a college town. We both found jobs here after we graduated, so we stayed. Since his sophomore year, my boyfriend has had an "arrangement" with an older man, a professor at the university. Did I say older? I meant old. We are in our mid-20s; this man is in his late 60s. The old man comes to my boyfriend's apartment once a week and cleans it. Does his laundry. Washes his dishes. He actually pays my boyfriend for the privilege. It's not much, $50, and the old perv says it's for my boyfriend's "time," since a part of their deal is that my boyfriend has to be in the apartment while the old perv cleans it. He's particularly pervy about how he cleans my boyfriend's bathroom. Dan, the old perv cleans my boyfriend's toilet bowl with his own toothbrush, which he then uses to brush his teeth the rest of the week!

There is no sex. (Presumably, the old perv goes home and beats off after cleaning my boyfriend's apartment.) None of this would matter if my boyfriend and I weren't talking about moving in together. I want this "arrangement" to stop. I don't feel comfortable using a toilet that a man old enough to be my grandfather cleaned with his toothbrush. This has been going on for six years—since my boyfriend was living in student housing. My boyfriend says he likes the clean apartment more than he needs the money (and that's true, now that he's no longer a starving student). But I say all good things must come to an end, and if I'm moving in, we'll have to clean up after ourselves or pay a real cleaning lady, like regular people.

We agreed to leave it up to you. Dan: The old perv stays? The old perv goes?

Toothbrushes Are For Teeth

The old perv stays.

By allowing this man to clean his apartment, TAFT, your boyfriend is making an old perv very, very happy, and that makes the world a more joyful place generally (and your boyfriend's apartment a tidier place particularly). Your boyfriend isn't taking advantage of the old perv—$50 is a much more reasonable fee than most sex workers would charge for the same service (yes, your boyfriend is doing very low-level sex work)—and while the toothbrush/toilet thing is a bit... creepy... and unsanitary... I'm sure you'll get used to it and/or be able to put it out of your mind. (Although I'd be giving the toilet an additional wipe-down if anyone—young, old, hot, not—were cleaning it for me with a ratty old toothbrush.)

Let's recognize this arrangement for what it really is: a successful long-term relationship. How many relationships—gay or straight, monogamous or open, where toilets are scrubbed weekly with toothbrushes or cleaned sporadically with toilet brushes—last six years! Sorry, TAFT, but I'm constitutionally disinclined to dissolve a successful six-year relationship in favor of a relationship that has yet to reach the one-year mark.

And I think you knew, TAFT. I think you knew I would side with the perv—was there ever any question?—which leads me to believe that you're secretly okay with this arrangement and an extra $50 a week to put toward household expenses, money that you can invest in cases of Clorox Wipes. You wanted a little plausible deniability, a way for the arrangement to continue without having to give it your blessing, and needed some cover. And now you have it, TAFT.


I'm in a friends-with-benefits arrangement with a woman I get along with really well, and I am interested in a real relationship. I know she's open to it, but there's one thing holding me back: She's overweight. And while it doesn't matter to me, it restricts what's possible in bed. Do I talk to her about it? If so, how?

Some Dude

If this woman's weight didn't interfere with a friends-with-benefits arrangement—a purely sexual bargain—why would her weight and the limitations it places on what's possible in bed factor into your decision to take this relationship "to the next level," as the life coaches/douchefags like to say? Don't make the mistake of assuming the choice you face is one between some hypothetical skinny bitch with no restrictions and this big woman who comes with some restrictions. Everyone has their own limits, their own capabilities, their own tastes and preferences, SD, and only a handful of us wind up in long-term relationships with partners without any restrictions whatsoever.

As for how to talk to her about her weight: Well, based on the furious and furiously defensive mail that pours in whenever the subject of weight comes up, I'd suggest you discuss it through a bulletproof glass partition. Or you could launch that real relationship, move in with her, and, presuming you eat decently and get regular exercise yourself, set an example of the kind of lifestyle choices that will bring down her weight and up her game.


I am a straight male. I have a problem ejaculating with a partner. I have failed to complete the act even when I arranged a session with two well-known porn stars I REALLY wanted. This despite sticking it nearly everywhere—no Greek—and in nearly every position. The only way I can reliably come is when I hump my mattress naked with a towel underneath me. What is my problem? I take Zoloft, which can have the effect of delaying orgasm, but that doesn't explain how I can get off so quickly with my towel, which I do daily, but I couldn't get it done in an entire hour with my favorite big-butted porn star who let me do whatever I wanted.

Fucking A Towel

First, a stroll down memory lane: Hearing anal sex referred to as "Greek" took me back to the days when I was a 13-year-old closet case reading the personal ads in the back of a purloined copy of the Advocate, wondering what the fuck fags meant when they described themselves as "Greek active" or "Greek passive," and why it was that Greek actives invariably described themselves as "French passive." It all seemed so mysterious and continental. Now, everyone is either a top or a bottom and romance is dead.

Moving on, FAT, it pains me to inform you that you've ruined your dick with that towel-and-mattress routine. You've trained your dick to respond to one kind of stimulation and one kind of stimulation only, a particular kind of stimulation that has very little in common with the sensations provided by big-butted porn stars. Your only hope is to stop humping the bed. Get some lube; use your left hand; use your right hand; invest in a Fleshlight; masturbate on your back, standing up, kneeling. Vary your masturbatory routine and habits and—this is the hard part—don't resort to the towel and mattress if you have difficulty getting off. You spent a lot of time programming your dick, and it's going to take some time to reprogram your dick, FAT. The only way to do that is to deny your dick—forever and ever, amen—the towel-and-mattress routine. Once your dick realizes that there's no going back, it'll adapt; it will begin to respond to the new and closer-to-human sensations that you're making available to it. Good luck. recommended


mail@savagelove.net

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Comments (185) RSS

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1
Re-use from slog. =(

Otherwise, great column.
Posted by olechka on February 16, 2010 at 8:24 PM · Report this
2
repeat???? come one, what's going on Dan!!
Posted by mikej on February 16, 2010 at 8:39 PM · Report this
3
threepeat??? come two!
Posted by deathbear on February 16, 2010 at 8:51 PM · Report this
4
Dan, even though you didn't mention him taking any ACTIVE role in encouraging her to lose weight, telling him to date her, move in with her and THEN "set an example for her" in reality will drive him to justify saying things like: "wow, another cookie?" two months into living with her as based on your advice. (Because, really, if he has to write into Savage Love for this kind of advice he really doesn't have the mental or emotional maturity to take your advice as-given.)
By that time she'll be so financially tied to this guy that she'll put up with these snide, soul-destroying comments for another year while gaining another fifteen pounds from sheer misery before finally reaching self-esteem rock bottom and jettisoning the fellow. And need another year to rebuild herself again.
If he wants a girl who isn't overweight he should dump her and look for someone else...
Wow, do I sound bitter?? Well, my rock bottom was "I'm going on a 300 mile bike trip this weekend, you should come; and you could really use it, too" when I hadn't owned a bike in three years much less ridden on one. Five years later and I'm clawing away at the weight one Weight Watchers Point at a time; but I chose it myself, have an incredibly supportive partner, and am much, much happier.
Real advice, SD, from your girl five years from now? Shut up. Don't say anything to her about her weight. She knows she's overweight. Read what you know about her; is she content at her size; does she want to lose weight; has lost any weight since you've known her? Positive answers are yes (because unhappy people gain more than happy people), yes (because she has a larger weight-loss goal) and yes (because she's taking steps to achieve that goal). If there are any no's then you're taking a risk that she'll never lose any weight no matter what good examples you set. If they're all no's then dump her now so she can find someone who wants her bigness. If you decide to be with her then ACT don't TELL. Cook healthy meals, go on long walks, listen when she talks about her weight loss, offer support and do NOT offer advice.
My husband found out I'd always wanted to learn to play tennis. For our anniversary last year he bought rackets. For Christmas he bought me a super cute tennis dress and spanx in my size (not the size I "hope" to be). For Valentines Day he gave me lesson coupons to teach me how to play. Once I learn to play and hold my own against him, I'm planning on playing him while wearing that tennis outfit-without the spanx. Cuz even though I'm overweight I still know how to blow his mind... and cuz he loves me plus the extra 30 lbs I still want to blow his mind.
More...
Posted by jab2009 on February 16, 2010 at 9:02 PM · Report this
5
really, please don't repost content from slog. it's pretty frustrating to send multiple letters to dan and see re-used content. maybe he could have answered my shitty question on slog and put the awesome question on the weekly column?
Posted by aoeustnh on February 16, 2010 at 9:06 PM · Report this
6
Dan's on vacation. Cut him some slack. Besides, the toothbrush one is good.
Posted by Get Real on February 16, 2010 at 9:13 PM · Report this
7 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
8
"...a real cleaning lady..." A cleaning lady? What is this, the 1950s?
Posted by TPT on February 16, 2010 at 9:27 PM · Report this
9
you guys. come on. his blog is a *blog - very different from his weekly savage love. get over yourselves. The way I see it is he posts on slog to get feedback and then uses that feedback to make the savage love advice more informed....
Posted by QXZJ on February 16, 2010 at 9:34 PM · Report this
10
I recommend that TAFT and his lover put some of that 50 bucks weekly into buying a brand new 99 cent toothbrush for the old man to use every time. He has to unwrap the new brush and use it on the toilet. Then he can take it home and do whatever he wants to with it. Next week, next brush.

Now you have no sanitary issues whatsoever. You're welcome!
Posted by rach3l on February 16, 2010 at 9:37 PM · Report this
11
Um, y'all get Slog and this column for free. Stop bitching. Really, its annoying.

Regarding fat chicks:
I'm a certifiably fat woman. According to the nifty little BMI chart, I probably cacked it yesterday. I'm also in a long term relationship with a hot sex life. My weight has really never been a problem for trying new positions, except for the few where the one partner holds up the other. And, really, that seems like it would get tiring after a while even with a slim partner. We've actually found a lot more complications with our height difference. I'm 5'2 and my partner's almost 6'. Makes it hard to fuck in the shower.

Also, SD sounds like he's looking for an excuse to be a douche. A fat chick's good enough to fuck but not good enough to date? Same old story.
Posted by Shoshie on February 16, 2010 at 9:41 PM · Report this
12
You know I get a it sick of all this weight defence crap.
If your cool with being over weight then own it but accept that it's not a majority of the populations list of attractive features.
My family is largely over weight and miraculously those in the family who choose to eat right and be active aren't fat! What a fucking concept! We've only gotten the eat right and be active talks since kindergarten we're just too lazy as North Americans to do it. Our country is full of crap foods and we largely refuse to move away from convenience of readily available fat and sugar plus we would rather melt our brains on TV than walking the dog. So Americans get fat. Its not fucking rocket science. You want to feel good about yourself, and confident and healthy? Get off the fucking couch and stop making excuses.
Posted by JDKing on February 16, 2010 at 9:55 PM · Report this
13
@jab2009
It's great that you dropped the idiot you were dating before, and according to JDKing apparently human bodies are bunsen burners so I hope you enjoy your new WW routine because those crazy fuckers are like a goddamned cult. If you stay right on the plan and never reach your goal weight, even if you're eating 600 calories a day? They'll accuse you of gaining weight because of cough drops. No fucking shit.

For JDKing - gee, I wonder why with all the social support we always see for fatties, why no one ever thought of eating right and exercising?? Could it be because a LOT OF FAT PEOPLE DO THAT AND DON'T BECOME THIN? Gee! I'll bet it is! Because nearly no study ever follows people for five years after any 'weight loss' plan, because those that do? invariably find that after five years, the vast, vast majority of them gained it all back. Hmm. Maybe some of your family are all statistical outliers, but maybe you're just a hater and a jackass and the fat people in your family are just fine.
Posted by happyhedonist on February 16, 2010 at 10:09 PM · Report this
14
@JDKing: As humans, we're what evolution designed us to be: active enough to survive, and lazy enough to not waste energy (calories) when we don't have to be. A perfect equilibrium of survival traits, unless you happen to be in an environment in which you have no predators and can get more than enough food without doing any/much physical labor.

On a macro scale, willpower isn't the answer to that problem any more than determination is how you can change your sexual orientation or stop sleeping indefinitely. It's defying your instincts and nature, something that can be done but only up to a point.

Changes (some, generally fairly, would say advancements) in technology and society got us into this mess; it's going to take more of the same to get us out of it. Or a few thousand years of evolution, whichever comes first. I'm betting on the former.
Posted by Dire Mongoose on February 16, 2010 at 10:30 PM · Report this
15
Right on advice for SD, Dan!
Great column as always!

Posted by wileEcoyote on February 16, 2010 at 10:32 PM · Report this
16
wow- total ignorance @12- I work out all the time, I eat better than 90% of my friends, I can bike 200 miles in one day and run 24 hour relay races. But I'm fatter than all my friends. I take my skinny friends out for a bike ride and end up waiting for them- they are out of breath and collapsing. I eat less than all my cycling and running friends, both during and after the event. I love the "get off the couch" sentiment- it really shows how much you know about losing weight. I like my body- but I hate people like you who think that cause I have extra weight I must sit around eating twinkies all day. weight will always be a sensitive issue because everyone is NOT the same- you probably burn more calories sitting around than I do riding my bike for 12 hours. Is that fair? should I be punished because my metabolism acts differently than yours?
Posted by lemonrose on February 16, 2010 at 10:38 PM · Report this
17
Fuck you towel fucker, if you're in a position where you can arrange sex with well known porn stars I say you've got it better than most of us do and you should stop bitching. dickhead.
Posted by skittles on February 16, 2010 at 11:11 PM · Report this
18
Wow. Totally in love with 4s husband.
Best husband ever. That's the way to get someone to slim down.
My boyfriend takes me rockclimbing and cooks for me. ^_^

Another hint, if you cook lots of healthy food, there's more gorgonzola apple walnut salad in the fridge, so you don't have to reach for cookies. Cooking just enough to leave you hungry is a bad idea, and inevitably leads to baked goods.
Posted by Caralain on February 17, 2010 at 12:08 AM · Report this
19
Dude,

Big fan here. Long time reader, first time commenter, etc.

FAT the towel-fucker had me thinking about two things.

First: As a lad with zero information about sex, I learned to masturbate in the same way as FAT: humping whatever fabric was available in a pile on the bed. It was not great. The difficulty, even at the squirt-tastic age of 15, was to come
before I rubbed myself bloody. I doubt that FAT's body is "spoiled" by the awesome sensations of laundry-humping, so that mere mucous-membranes can't compete. When after years of sex with textiles, I at last figured out how to jerk off with my hands, it was like being given a feathery wing-job by sexy angels.

Second: A person's inability to orgasm in "normal" situations, while they come easily in
highly ritualized or fetishized situations that provide emotional safety, is a textbook case in psychoanalysis. I don't mean to advocate analysis in general, much less any particular flavor of analysis. I merely suggest that such a pathological anorgasmia seems likely to be the result of deep sexual neurosis. I'd like to further suggest the possibility that his success with towels is simply another symptom, and not the cause, of his fundamental distress.
Posted by karuna on February 17, 2010 at 12:19 AM · Report this
balderdash 20
Man, some people just don't know how to appreciate the fact that us lucky Slog readers sometimes get a sneak peek at SL content while the rest of the world - y'all DO know that SL goes out to more than just the Stranger, right? - has to wait for the column.

Don't be so damn negative. It was a good letter. Or - well, actually it was a weird, creepy letter, but it was interesting.

And as for the getting a partner to lose weight thing, well, godspeed. I never had any luck and I tried all the supportive and constructive approaches I could think of. It's hard.
Posted by balderdash http://introverse.blogspot.com on February 17, 2010 at 12:31 AM · Report this
21
Get ready for all the overweight sensitives to cry about how they can eat nothing but celery and run 5 miles a day and still be overweight. That is called a LIE. You don't want to commit to losing weight, that's your decision, but this perpetual victim bullshit about obesity being completely out of your control is why so many American children are getting adult onset diabetes.

Our kids are so fat they can't even call it adult onset anymore
Posted by GL on February 17, 2010 at 12:58 AM · Report this
22
Skittles is an unbelievably miserable loser.
Posted by GL on February 17, 2010 at 1:05 AM · Report this
23
Regarding the OMG FAT CHICK CAN'T FUCK bullshit, how do you know until you tried? The most flexible women I've had sex with have tended to be the fatter ones. And flexibility often = great sex.

As for GL and the other fattie-haters above, stop showing your ignorance. It isn't a lie that some people can eat bugger-all and still be fat. And if the only way you can maintain an "acceptable" weight is to eat 1000 calories a day, there is such a thing as malnutrition. And yes, people who are fat can still be malnourished.

(Not to say that some people eat shit and use their genetics as an excuse, but not that many - most people will cop to eating shit when they do. They just don't -care- about other people trying to police their bodies)
Posted by Trix on February 17, 2010 at 1:08 AM · Report this
24
Okay, I'm pretty young and mostly straight, so I had never heard the terms "greek active" or "greek passive" before. While I found that weird in and of itself, I really can't puzzle out what "french passive" would mean. Does it refer to oral? What's "french" about a blow job? Someone please decode this for me, I'm fascinated.
Posted by parkdale on February 17, 2010 at 1:42 AM · Report this
25
I wonder if "Some Dude" is actually INTO heavy women but hasn't been able to come to grips with it because it's not mainstream-hot?

Like, yeah, it's totally fine to have a FWB arrangement with this girl and he really likes her, but y'know, if he's in a RELATIONSHIP with her it's like admitting what he really likes is his booty extra-plush.

Maybe he needs to deal with that possible issue before trying to date a woman he already wants to change...because if she really did end up changing, would he still genuinely wanna jump her as he does now?
Posted by Scribbles on February 17, 2010 at 2:16 AM · Report this
26
Uhh, Trix, this is Savage Love, so don't say 'eat shit' unless you mean it.
Posted by Warsaw on February 17, 2010 at 3:45 AM · Report this
Jo42 27
Well #25 beat me too it, but my frist thought about Some Dude was that positions had nothing to do with it (I mean, they're already fucking right?). I think he's more concerned about that his friends/family will think about HIM if he's actually dating a larger woman (and I'm curious as to how big she really is). If you're ashamed to be seen with her, then yeah, don't date her. She really don't need to be with a guy who treats her as a "but" (You're really pretty but... You're really sexy but... etc).
If you can't be with her without conditions, then don't be with her.
Posted by Jo42 on February 17, 2010 at 4:35 AM · Report this
28
@19 You are totally wrong. It's a very common problem and has nothing to do with psychology. You can read more about men overcoming mattress-fucking at

http://www.healthystrokes.com
Posted by Marrena on February 17, 2010 at 4:56 AM · Report this
29
I had to google French Passive and I'm so glad I did.

Posted by KathleenD http://kathleendienne.com on February 17, 2010 at 5:07 AM · Report this
30
@ 16 - if you're as diligent as you say about eating well and working out and are still fat, see a doctor who can diagnose an endocrine disorder. 99% of the fat population got that way because they simply ate too damn much. If you're in the 1% you should get checked out.
Posted by AC on February 17, 2010 at 5:31 AM · Report this
31
sob - curse the February public school vacation week. I declare, I shall waste away without Dan. sniff.
Posted by knitpicker on February 17, 2010 at 6:07 AM · Report this
samanthaf63 32
Scribbles, I'm with you.

With one caveat - it could also include his reluctance to commit to someone. Maybe he doesn't want to close down his options if he sees another potential partner - skinny or fat, doesn't matter. It may be that he's constantly on the lookout for something "better", in which case he shouldn't move in with her because he's simply not ready to settle on one woman.
Posted by samanthaf63 on February 17, 2010 at 6:19 AM · Report this
33
@ 24 - "french passive" = receiver of blow jobs. I had to look it up too.
@ 5 and others - I'm also a bit annoyed at the repeat of a slog letter when I too have sent in multiple letters over the years. I've complained about it a lot and often receive abuse from the "leave poor Dan alone" brown nosers. It's not as though he's doing volunteer work people! Dan hasn't done it much in the last month or so, so I'm willing to forgive this relapse.
Finally, did anyone else feel like the last letter may have been bullshit? I mean, how does someone who seems to be so naïve about sex and his own body even have the ways and means to arrange "sessions" with "2 well-known porn stars?" I'm assuming this guy is rather young. Am I just making unfair assumptions?
Posted by nyker on February 17, 2010 at 6:34 AM · Report this
34
Off the top of my head the prevalence of two diseases that cause weight gain:

PCOS: 6-8% of the population

Hypothyroidism: 3% of the population, more of them women than men

And to throw in an outlier disease most people are unaware of:

Lipedema: 5% of the population, and the kicker, you can't lose weight, no matter what you do.

So, a whole lot more than one or two percent of the population has a disease causing weight gain. And I haven't even thrown in depression, where SSRI's cause weight gain.

Inaccuracy annoys me.

Posted by SpookyCats on February 17, 2010 at 6:46 AM · Report this
35
Prevalence of three weight causing diseases:

PCOS: 6-8% all women by definition

Hypothyroidism: 3%, mostly women

Lipedema: 5-11%, mostly women, and the kicker, you can't lose the weight. Anorexia and WLS don't touch it.

So considerably more than one percent of the population has endocrine problems. Not that those can be the only medical reason to gain weight uncontrollably. Inaccuracy annoys me.

I tried posting this before but when I came back to the column I didn't see it. If this is a double post, my apologies.
Posted by SpookyCats on February 17, 2010 at 6:53 AM · Report this
36
Oh christ, give him a break people - the man is on vacation!
Posted by darchu on February 17, 2010 at 6:54 AM · Report this
37
@33
"Well-known porn stars" can mean anything in these days of rampant online amateur porn. They weren't necessarily A-listers and it wasn't necessarily free.
Posted by Canadian nurse on February 17, 2010 at 7:13 AM · Report this
38
I'd agree -- it sounds like he's scared of commitment with a fat woman, being out in public with a fat woman, etc. Which is mean.

Here's the thing that I never hear articulated in the fat debates. YES, some people have a harder time losing weight than others. NO, simply getting off the couch and eating a sensible diet won't make everyone skinny. But there ARE ways for just about anyone to be lean -- it's just that they may be drastically unpleasant. Like never, ever, eating any kind of starch or sugar again, and working out twice a day. This guy writes a lot about that: http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_f…
Losing weight is possible for everyone, but hell on earth for some, depending on their genetic makeup.

I think it's understandable for someone to say "no thanks" to that particular level of hell. If she's naturally heavy, it may be that the kind of diet & exercise that works for Some Dude may be not nearly enough for her. I don't think anybody can make that decision for her.
Posted by drizzle89 on February 17, 2010 at 7:18 AM · Report this
39
@34
And you haven't added in people on long-term prednisone and many antipsychotics (which are also used to treat bipolar disorder nowadays). Lots of people are overweight for reasons that make it much harder for them to control than average.
Posted by Canadian nurse on February 17, 2010 at 7:20 AM · Report this
40
(I Can't Wait ;-) to settle in absorb this weeks' Adventure! Love, Adrienne ;) )
Posted by iloveyoubgoodmorningmebaby! on February 17, 2010 at 7:45 AM · Report this
41
"It all seemed so mysterious and continental. Now, everyone is either a top or a bottom and romance is dead."

Awww... I LOVED romance!

I too remember those funny old codes (from Advocate, Drummer, James Merrill books, etc.). You could bring them back Dan! While "top" and "bottom" are indeed easier and more descriptive and less romantic but you have the power to change all that. Remember "santorum"? As if anyone could forget!

I vote we all go back to using "Greek Active", "French Passive" and the like. I mean, there was that whole resurgence of 70's fashion after Ashton Kutcher re-popularized it, why can't we do that with romance? You should take the lead in "re-mystifying" sex so it can be...well, more sexy! In the same way that someone wearing very revealing clothes is often more sexy than someone who is just naked.

I just have one question. What do you call someone who is "versatile"? Maybe "Belgian"?
Posted by LAN8 on February 17, 2010 at 8:01 AM · Report this
42
Like other people here, I suspect that Some Dude's problem isn't really that he can't try every position with his fat FWB lady friend - as Dan points out, there are lots of things that lots of people can't or won't do. Instead, it's that he feels ashamed of being in a relationship with her because he's not *supposed* to be attracted to fat women (and so either there's something wrong with him, or else he can't do any better).

Now, there's nothing wrong with being attracted to certain looks - body types, hairstyles, whatever. But what Dan is suggesting is completely disingenuous. Previously, Dan has told letter writers that they're within their rights to expect that their partners will do their best to *maintain* their weight and appearance, since that's what the other person signed up for. However, getting into a relationship with this woman means that you accept her, like her, and are attracted to her AS SHE IS. If you can do that, great - mazel tov. If you can't, spare her the passive-aggressive comments about being "healthy" and "fit" and just keep the friends-with-benefits arrangement that you have going.
Posted by Berkolate on February 17, 2010 at 8:22 AM · Report this
tinuviel 43
As someone who has struggled some with my weight in the past, I am pretty sure that every one of my lovers - boyfriend or fwb - was aware of my feelings towards my weight. They knew I had a goal weight I was working towards, was avoiding quick-fix dieting methods, and tried not to waste emotinal energy stressing about my body.
My point is that Some Dude must be aware of how this potential girlfriend feels about her weight. If she is happy as she is, then he should make his decision based on her as she is now, not on some hope of wheedling her into weight-loss. If she's unhappy with her weight and hopes to be slimmer, then offering his support to help her reach her goals is appropriate, as long as it doesn't deteriorate into mind games and recriminations.
But to me, it all comes down to her attitude to her weight. Does she even feel that it is a problem? If not, then he doesn't have to right to try and make it into one.
Posted by tinuviel on February 17, 2010 at 8:36 AM · Report this
44
About the repeat letter: I live in the Detroit area and discovered Dan through the Metrotimes. I started reading Dan here after his podcast came out, and then started reading his blog and so on. Now I too feel somewhat disappointed when I read a letter twice, BUT I would rather he reuses great letters than that the large number of people who don't even know about his blog can still be exposed to them. And that letter was a great letter - where the hell can I get some guy to clean my whole house like that? I don't care if he uses his toothbrush to clean my toilet. Come on - clean house! I also am under the impression that TAFT thinks the toothbrush thing is gross because of the thought of the guy brushing his teeth with it after (i.e. a negative reaction to the "old perv's" fetish), not because he thinks it's gross to use a toilet cleaned by someone else's toothbrush. I could be wrong, but if that's the case, he needs to get over himself. Did I mention the awesome benefits of having someone else clean your house?

And about SD - yes, it sounds like yet another case of being too embarrassed to date a woman because of her weight. How can it possibly be the position thing if they're already fucking? Also, I am of the firm belief that a lack of positions is only due to a lack of creativity or persistence.

And there is something to the metabolism thing. Sure, there are plenty of overweight people who are that way for obvious reasons, but there are also some that are that way because of other things, or because losing weight would only be possible through making life completely miserable (and I'm talking about what #38 said, not because life would be hell without twinkies). If you don't believe it, think about the opposite thing - how many people do you know who are skinny for NO GOOD REASON? I know several. I know a guy who is the laziest person I've ever seen, eats the worst food imaginable in large quantities. His idea of a perfect day is to sit on the couch playing video games for 12 hours, interspersed with gorging on buffalo wings and candy. This has been his whole life, but he's also the skinniest person I know - he's a veritable twig. I've known plenty of other similar people, he's just the most extreme example. Don't tell me you've never seen a skinny person who can eat whatever the hell they want and has no exercise program.
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Posted by DrReality on February 17, 2010 at 8:46 AM · Report this
45
To all the fat haters: Fuck Off.Losing weight is not easy.

To everyone who's trying to lose weight: GOOD for you! I lost 50 pounds last summer on Weight Watchers. I ate really healthy and ran everyday for 45 min and did 25 crunches.I've maintained my weight goal and I did it for myself. I feel great now. I will always remember when I was bigger and what potential partners did for me good AND bad.I will always keep my sympathy for people who honestly try to lose weight because I know how hard it is.
Posted by Justice on February 17, 2010 at 9:42 AM · Report this
46
Agreed, Some Dude's letter sounded more like he couldn't handle the social onus of calling an overweight woman 'girlfriend.'

If I were the woman this letter referred to, I'd be heading for the hills. Going into a relationship looking for the earliest possible opportunity to change a partner is the kind of psychotic bullshit that men have been complaining about since the invention of language.

To all ladies out there who are currently thinking 'This can't be MY fuckbuddy...can it?" DTMFA. There is an awesome man who will think you're beautiful and be proud to have you on his arm out there somewhere, and you won't find him while clinging on to this passive aggressive clod.
Posted by Torchy Blane on February 17, 2010 at 10:19 AM · Report this
47
Agreed, Some Dude's letter sounded more like he couldn't handle the social onus of calling an overweight woman 'girlfriend.'

If I were the woman this letter referred to, I'd be heading for the hills. Going into a relationship looking for the earliest possible opportunity to change a partner is the kind of psychotic bullshit that men have been complaining about since the invention of language.

To all ladies out there who are currently thinking 'This can't be MY fuckbuddy...can it?" DTMFA. There is an awesome man who will think you're beautiful and be proud to have you on his arm out there somewhere, and you won't find him while clinging on to this passive aggressive clod.
Posted by Torchy Blane on February 17, 2010 at 10:20 AM · Report this
48
@LAN8:
You call them Italian, because Italy is in between France and Greece.

Gonna piss off the cast of Jersey Shore, but oh well.
Posted by Hralf on February 17, 2010 at 10:23 AM · Report this
49
Agreed, Some Dude's letter sounded more like he couldn't handle the social onus of calling an overweight woman 'girlfriend.'

If I were the woman this letter referred to, I'd be heading for the hills. Going into a relationship looking for the earliest possible opportunity to change a partner is the kind of psychotic bullshit that men have been complaining about since the invention of language.

To all ladies out there who are currently thinking 'This can't be MY fuckbuddy...can it?" DTMFA. There is an awesome man who will think you're beautiful and be proud to have you on his arm out there somewhere, and you won't find him while clinging on to this passive aggressive clod.
Posted by Torchy Blane on February 17, 2010 at 10:31 AM · Report this
50
What the hell is this?
Fantasy week? Early April's Fool day column.

First, we have a guy who's complaining that somebodies paying to get his apt. cleaned. I'd let the old perv do it for free.
Second, we have a guy who's complaining of having prolonged mutlipositional multiorificial sex with not one but two porn stars. I call that boasting.

Thanks for the laughs.
Posted by NotPassiveWhenIGetaBJ on February 17, 2010 at 10:40 AM · Report this
DowntownTaylor 51
Arg... I hate it when a letter-of-the-day is re-used as a regular Savage Love letter.
Posted by DowntownTaylor http://www.digitaltaylor.com on February 17, 2010 at 10:40 AM · Report this
52
@LAN8:
You call them Italian, because Italy is in between France and Greece.

Gonna piss off the cast of Jersey Shore, but oh well.
Posted by Hralf on February 17, 2010 at 10:42 AM · Report this
53
Thank you, TPT, for calling out the "real cleaning lady" comment! And shame on you, Dan, for not saying anything about that sexist bullshit.

But otherwise, excellent job and I adore you.
Posted by quelchic on February 17, 2010 at 10:53 AM · Report this
Donut 54
I suggest "Swiss" for those who are versatile.
Posted by Donut on February 17, 2010 at 11:14 AM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 55
First, I have no problem with fatties who are comfortable with their weight. I have no problem with people who want to fuck fatties-- we all have our sexual preferences, and they don't all align with the mainstream ideal (for instance, I'm not attracted to blonds). I have a big problem with a lot of the anti-fatty bias, which is often based in misogyny. As in: the sole purpose of a woman is to be attractive to men; the woman in question is not attractive to the man making the disparaging comment; therefore the woman is a failure as a woman. Ever notice that the anti-fatty hoards come down a lot harder on women than men? I sure have.

All that said, I'm so fucking sick of the "slow metabolism" excuse. I have an absurdly slow metabolism, which just means my body is more efficient at processing food than other people's bodies. I get more miles-to-the-gallon, as it were, and if we're ever stranded on a deserted island, I'm outliving everyone. When you have a more fuel-efficient body or car, you PUT LESS FUEL IN IT. Seriously.

Yes, people with fast metabolisms get to eat three meals a day-- including deserts-- along with periodic snacking, and they don't gain a pound. I only eat two portion-controlled meals a day, never snack or have dessert, primarily drink water (no soda or juice), and work out every morning to maintain my weight. It's not fair, but life isn't fucking fair. Some people just have to work harder than others to achieve the same goals.

Losing weight is a matter of science: if you burn more calories per day than you take in, you will lose weight (or else violate the laws of thermodynamics). Yes, those of us with slow metabolisms burn far fewer calories at rest than those with fast metabolisms. We have to compensate by eating less or burning more through activity.
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Posted by I Hate Screen Names on February 17, 2010 at 11:26 AM · Report this
Scrufff 56
Tooth Brush guy, I agree with Dan give the old guy a break and like the other reader suggested, buy him a new tooth brush every time he comes over to clean.

BTW in these economic times, i'd LOVE to have a guy come over and PAY ME 50 bucks to clean my apt. Fuck he could do naked if that got his jollies off, or hell i'd walk around naked if that was his thing, jeez. Right now, I happily pay my cleaning lady $80 every two weeks (thank you Rosario for your hard work) but if i could GET $50 WEEKLY for a clean apt, well wow what a deal!

To Some Dude, i too think he's worried what his friends/family might think of him dating a fat woman. Neil Lebute dealt with this very same issue in his highly acclaimed play "Fat Pig".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Pig

But I do think that the fat defenders here are wrong that they're just naturally fat (unless as pointed out, its some extremely rare medical condition).

Here's my personal experience with weight gain. Last year i had a nasty break up with my boyfriend and stopped working out because i didn't want to run into him at the gym. So i stayed in, drank a bottles of wine with dinner, tried to drink my sorrows away on the weekend, ate junk and other bad foods. So surprise subsequently ballooned to 208 lbs! Before that, I was a fit guy that normally weighed in around the low 170s, and stand 5.11. So 208 pounds was shocking to me, plus i felt very unattractive with this huge beer gut.

Cut to my 2010 New years resolution, eat right, stop with the excessive drinking AND work out EVERY day. Yes that meant I had to get back to my gym (fuck the old boyfriend.) But most importantly i sprint/run 2.5 miles around my neighborhood every other night. Note, a personal trainer with a MS in nutrition once told me that running on a flat tread mill is TOTALLY ineffective, unless you've got the it cranked up to its highest elevation level your really not getting anything out of it.

Its now mid Feb. and I've already lost over 33 lbs. and have 10 more pounds to hit my target weight of 165 and yes i want to be thinner then i was before the weight gain.

So to all the fatties out there, i personally think its more important to be physically active than watching what you eat. And I'm not talking a nice walk with the dog. i mean work out until you break a sweat. Unless you're sweating buckets, you're not going to lose weight.

Just my 2¢
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Posted by Scrufff on February 17, 2010 at 11:31 AM · Report this
57
@56 -- you're a normally-lean guy who at one point gained a lot of weight. By your own self-description, you're different than people who have been fat all their lives.

Example: my best friend is overweight, has weighed the same since middle school (literally), and her whole family is fat. She's not a glutton or a lazy-ass-- she eats a healthy, moderate diet, and goes to the gym every day. The point is, for her, that simply isn't going to make her thin -- which doesn't bother her, in fact, so long as she's healthy, so it's all good.

But if she did want to be thin, she'd have to do some crazy shit. People who have been fat since childhood (as opposed to people who temporarily let themselves go) have to do crazy shit to look different. Sometimes (depending on how good their nutritional advice is) it's actually safer for them if they don't do crazy shit.

I don't really have to do the crazy shit, myself; heavy weights and running and <1600 calories and I'm good. But some folks are just built differently. (Note to fatties -- there's a good chance that you're also better at gaining strength than your skinny friends. Make use of it.)
Posted by drizzle89 on February 17, 2010 at 12:19 PM · Report this
58
I had to end a wonderful relationship due to weight issues. Its hard watching someone eat themselves to death. Its akin to watching someone abuse super hard drugs right in front of you. But if your partner is not overeating I say go with it. FAT = FLAVOR! (Just not the kind of fat endless amounts of brownies put on ya when you already have Diabetes Type II.)
Posted by fartknocker on February 17, 2010 at 12:34 PM · Report this
59
Well, sorry JDKing, and those who think like him/her, but you're wrong. I am fat. I've been overweight since high school, at least by High School standards. Over the past several years, I've been doing everything I can to lose weight. I tried Weight Watchers, gained weight. I'd get to the end of the day and had like 15 points left to eat, yet I wasn't hungry. My car broke down, so I let it sit and decided to walk everywhere. I gained weight. I eat like a freakin' bird, never finishing a meal at a restaurant, living on fruits and veggies, cut out preservatives completely and shop on the outer aisles of the grocery, and drink only water. Despite my pant size, I actually don't even like cookies, chocolate, pie, cake or candy. Still, I continue to gain weight. Its gotten to the point that sucking in my gut doesn't make all that much difference. I work out 5 times a week for three hours, hired a personal trainer, bought an elliptical machine and don't allow myself to sit on the couch...I continue to gain. I've tried pills and crash diets to no avail. I've had my thyroid tested, tested for PCOS, and diabetes. All are fine. I asked my doctor for help, she told me to eat less. I logged everything that I ate and showed it to her, she told me that I was eating too much....then I advised her that list was what I had eaten in a week, not a day. No answer. I don't know how I could eat less.

Then, a couple months ago, I said Fuck It! If this is going to be my life, then I should at least enjoy it. I started eating more, eating food that I liked and I bought myself a car. I stopped all diet attempts, and instead of a gym membership and personal trainer, I put gas in my new SUV and go do things that I enjoy. Without an ounce of effort, I've dropped 20 lbs in two months, and my pants continue to get bigger on me and I just shrunk out of my belt .

So, while yes, there are some people out there that are fat because they are lazy, they feast on cookies and cake, and don't exercise; there are also some of us that simply gain weight despite getting tons of exercise and eating very little or "right". For some, its not just a matter of getting off the couch and eating less. That surely didn't work for me. Granted, I still don't eat bad, I like fruits and veggies, but I also allow myself steak and potatoes when I crave them.

I still have a ways to go, but I know I will never be stick thin, nor do I want to be, as I don't even find that attractive. Plus, my guy needs my "love handles" for something to hang on to. So, next time you want to make the comment that all people are fat because they are lazy and eat too much, think back to that old elementary school saying...

I may be fat, but your [heart is] ugly, and I can [now] lose weight!
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Posted by Written from my Couch on February 17, 2010 at 12:40 PM · Report this
60
Fat chicks are often fun, because the don't have a lot of self esteem. So they make natural subs. They won't usually go for the pain, but they tend to go big for humiliation. Here, piggy piggy piggy!
Posted by Well 'accept' not 'go for' but it's immaterial after I come. on February 17, 2010 at 12:43 PM · Report this
61
For FAT, the guy on Zoloft: I took Zoloft for depression for years, and found it wore off quickly for me. I usually took it in the morning, so if I skipped one morning, I'd be orgasmic that night. It took some planning ahead, but was really worth it, and didn't seem to interfere with its medical effectiveness. I tried not to skip more than once a week, though.
Posted by Suzan on February 17, 2010 at 12:47 PM · Report this
62
Some reasons that men are willing to fuck fat women, but not want a relationship with them:

1) Social cost, embarrassment, loss of status. Guilt by association is probably the biggest factor for many men, and it's learned at a young age. Certainly, where I grew up, the fat kids were almost all at the bottom of the social ladder, and being friends with them meant that you too were a loser.

It's a hard thing to unlearn, and it doesn't really matter whether it's right or wrong. Even if a guy changes his own mind, he can't change the minds of his peers and colleagues. Most of us, men and women both included, lose a little bit of respect for someone if we think their partner's unattractive. Or at the very least, we certainly gain respect for someone if we think their partner is smokin' hot, and most people don't think that someone fat CAN be smokin' hot.

It's weird but I think a lot of people have more respect for a self-proclaimed chubby chaser. They may think it's a weird preference, but at least it's a CHOICE, not just that he "couldn't do any better".

2) Sometimes, paradoxically, people get turned on by the idea of fucking someone who's flawed (or "flawed") in a way that makes a commitment impossible. Who among us hasn't fantasized about having sex with someone we wouldn't want to date in a million years? If a guy knows he's not willing to have a real relationship with a girl because she's fat, it can make it easier for him to fuck her with abandon because it "doesn't matter" in the long run.

3) People gain weight as they get older. The fat chick who's deliciously ripe at twentysomething may be just plain morbidly obese at fortysomething, or after having a few kids. If that sounds harsh, well, that's just reality; when we decide whom to date or marry, we factor in a whole lot of things that sound harsh if discussed openly (income, for one).

4) Also related to #1: sometimes what we like to touch, and what we like to look at, aren't the same thing. A guy can enjoy the physical sensation of sex with a fat woman, but vastly prefer the way skinny women look...and we spend a lot more time in life looking (and being looked at) than touching.

5) This won't make me popular, but: yes, we all know about hormones and genes and so on, but there are a lot of people (men and women) who are fat because they lack self-control and/or ambition. This can be hot in bed ("Let's stay home all day and watch movies and fuck"), but not so good in other areas of life.
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Posted by ambivalent on February 17, 2010 at 1:20 PM · Report this
63
Ambivalent: I think you've hit the major points - in particular, #1
Posted by knkycva on February 17, 2010 at 1:45 PM · Report this
64
It's clear that some guys like fat women. I often see trim guys on the street with fat partners. More power to them. What's the secret? If you are a trim guy who is attracted to fat women, what do you know that we don't know? What do you find attractive about fat women?
Posted by SavageFan33 on February 17, 2010 at 2:13 PM · Report this
JunieGirl 65
@64, I've had a couple of guys describe it for me. In fact, one of my friends told me of a conversation he had with a co-worker who was making rude comments about fat women. My friend told him "Wait till you try it." Months later, the guy came back and said "You were right!"

There's something about the softness and warmth of being enveloped in a round woman that they enjoy. One guy explained that watching a fat woman jiggle to his thrusts was part of the thrill--a very visual stimulus for him. He loved to squeeze and smack fat asses...it felt better to him, more to hold on to.

He said a lot of other stuff too, but I don't want to hear the responses that it would likely elicit, so I'll stop here.
Posted by JunieGirl on February 17, 2010 at 2:39 PM · Report this
66
There's more to it than simply "move more, eat less." It totally depends on WHAT movements you're doing, and what "healthy" food you're putting in your body. Most of the food we think is healthy and not fattening is usually loaded with sodium and other crap.

Eat frequent, small meals. Cut down on carbs. Up your protein. Do weight training. Oh, and about the exercise. There is a PLATEAU. If you keep doing the same exercises, your body is going to stop responding, you're not going to lose much weight or gain much muscle. Sure, your heart health will be good, but physically, you're not going to change much.

Is any of this easy? NO! But I too am tired of the "but I exercise and eat healthy" and "I have a slow metabolism." All of the obese people in American are not that way because of underlying medical issues.

If anyone wants to seriously reshape their body, gain flexibility, feel strong and healthy, I'd recommend a program like p90x. Yes, it kicks your ass. But I don't see how anyone COULDN'T slim down and tone up, if you do the workouts and follow the diet plan (which has great recipes and won't make you feel starved).

I'm not saying that everyone has to look like a body builder. It's just, there probably are further, healthy steps you can take if you find yourself with a lot of excess body fat. Even after an intense program, you could still be bigger than all your friends. So what. You're still going to be more flexible, stronger, and probably healthier.

Oh, and like many people said, there are men who will be attracted to you and love you regardless of your appearance, including excess weight. It's not fair that overweight/fat/obese people are made to be assexual, emotionless beings. If you're OK with extra pounds and are pretty healthy, tell that dude you're going to find someone else to fuck.
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Posted by hai on February 17, 2010 at 3:31 PM · Report this
67
I get really annoyed when I have to see REPEAT COMMENTS about how Dan sometimes uses a letter in his Blog and then in the Savage Love column. Could the Slog commenters, please stop REPEATING THIS COMMENT all the time? Because I get really frustrated by it and it tends to ruin my day.
Posted by AK on February 17, 2010 at 4:03 PM · Report this
Aurora Erratic 68
LW #2: You are either okay with her weight, or you are not. If you aren't okay with it, don't enter into a "real" relationship with her. If you are, then enjoy -- but don't try to pressure or manipulate her into changing. What you see is what you get -- either you want her the way she is, or you want somebody else.
Come to think of it, the LW SAID he had no problem with her weight. Dan brought that try-to-change-her crap into it.
Posted by Aurora Erratic http://www.finemesspottery.com on February 17, 2010 at 4:50 PM · Report this
69
We pay someone else to clean our house. I wouldn't be happy if my partner had a submissive come in and do it, paying us for the privilege. This would draw me into a sexual threesome, not something I want.
I think the new guy has a right to say he's only going to move in if it is on monogamous terms. The old perv can probably find some other young hot man to cut the same deal with (maybe he has one for every day of the week already).
Posted by Carol1965 on February 17, 2010 at 5:08 PM · Report this
70
I don't think SD is afraid of what his friends will think. I think he just hasn't learned how to nail that chick properly yet. When I first got in bed with a fat woman I had a lot of relearning to do. If we had been doing the FWB thing I wouldn't have put in the work and would have settled for average sex. I can imagine how if we had gone that rout I would think I just didn't like big woman as much. I knew from the beginning what I had with my woman and was instantly committed to figuring out how to have fantastic sex with her, but it really didn't start that way.SD I hear you if, you've been doing skinny people your whole life it might be some work. I say choice love. I am always surprised at the unexpected bounty we reap when we take the risk to love.

ps. Learning to nail my fat lady taught me thing for my skinny partners too ;)
Posted by Weavermount on February 17, 2010 at 5:39 PM · Report this
71
Some Dude is being patently disingenuous. I can't remember that last time I read a Savage Love letter that was so packed with lies.

He has a purely sexual relationship with her, yet he's worried that she's too fat for good sex if they make a serious go of a relationship?

What a load of bullshit.

My guess is that she's indicated she wants a serious relationship, and he's trying to find some excuse to get out of it. I mean, fucking a fat chick while playing the field is okay, but a FAT GIRLFRIEND? That's, like, a loss of status!

I hope the poor girl dumps this wanker before he has a chance to break her heart.
Posted by DexX http://www.bi-alliance.org/ on February 17, 2010 at 7:37 PM · Report this
72
French and Greek. Love it. Hanky codes, anyone?
Posted by 75219 on February 17, 2010 at 8:05 PM · Report this
73
I'm glad someone else remembers the personal ads code of French and Greek active/passive! That seems a long time ago now.
Posted by Sancho on February 17, 2010 at 9:10 PM · Report this
74
To all the people offering weight loss advice . . . I'm sorry, did anyone ask for it? SD said he didn't have a problem with his fwb's weight (which I don't really believe, but whatever), and all the overweight posters have clearly not been asking for weight loss advice.

Sounds to me like they're reacting to the implication that fat=lazy. Which, sure, is defensive, but given the number of people here who are STILL INSISTING that if you're fat that just means you're not exercising and dieting in the right way . . . well, it seems a fairly justified defensiveness.

And, sure a lot of people who are overweight can lose weight by exercising more and eating fewer carbs and so on. But that's not really the point. People have a right to smoke even if it gives them lung cancer and people have a right to not floss their teeth if they don't want to and people have a right to be fat without the whole world feeling smugly superior to them.
Posted by wellwhynot on February 17, 2010 at 9:54 PM · Report this
75
can anyone link to me the accompanying slog post?
Posted by Monica K on February 17, 2010 at 10:09 PM · Report this
76
I have a lot of compassion for overweight folks. I jokingly refer to my own childhood and say that I was the "first fat kid in America". I was fat back when fat wasn't cool. Growing up in the 70s and being fat, there was like *ONE* other fat kid in my entire elementary school of about 600 kids. Nowadays there would probably be 3 or 4 per class room I'm guessing.

For years I thought that I was fat because I was "a pig", since that's what other people told me. Finally when I got to high school, hit puberty, wanted a girlfriend and realized I would never have one unless I lost weight, I started actively struggling against the constant and tremendously strong inner impulse to eat, eat, eat... For a year I spent lunch period in the library reading books, feeling miserable and starving. I lost weight. A girl told me, "Now that you've lost weight, I've realized, your actually hot." I didn't believe that could be possible. Evidently it was. For most of my childhood I was made fun of for the way I looked, and then from high school and on, I've been praised for being a hottie. Go figure.

Anyway, I realize now that I had a food addiction. My parents divorced when I was 6 years old and I dealt with it by blowing up like a blimp. I have struggled with this my whole life, and I have spent a huge amount of time fighting it, seeking to understand it, struggling to overcome it, and for the most part, I have. I can still "go there" if I let myself, but most of the time I have the willpower not to.

I have to say though, to overcome this thing was FUCKING DIFFICULT! For people who have never struggled with it, you just do not understand how hard it can be to overcome. The difference between food addiction and alcohol addiction, is that you can never quit eating. It's like being a raging alcoholic, and having to learn how to only drink one beer with every meal, when you're whole system is screaming for you to slam a 12-pack...

I think there can be many reasons for someone being overweight. Being "lazy" and eating too much is just one possibility out of many. I think we should never assume anything about a fat person. We really have no idea why they look that way, and what tribulations they have gone through in their lifetime. Maybe more than you could handle yourself...

Remember, compassion makes you smart... peace.
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Posted by Piler on February 17, 2010 at 10:32 PM · Report this
77
Karuna @19 -

Best comment ever! Up until the Second: anyway. You know that sort of psychoanalysis has been discredited right? No matter, your sex with textiles speech makes up for your failure in psychology.
Posted by albal on February 17, 2010 at 10:52 PM · Report this
78
I will never tire of hearing the word "douchefag" in any context.
Posted by Yawgmoth on February 17, 2010 at 11:46 PM · Report this
79
My impression of Dan's answer to TAFT is that he didn't really read his letter. He's telling TAFT that there's no question he would side w/the perv and that TAFT is really OK with the situation. Um, what? TAFT makes it very clear that he is uncomfortable with it and wants it to end.

The situation itself is minor except that it does (IMO) raise a red flag, because if TAFT is uncomfortable with it and his bf refuses to respect that, it speaks volumes about the potential for the relationship to be unhealthy. All TAFT's bf has to do is tell the old perv "It's been a good run, but it has to end, because my bf is uncomfortable with it and I can't jeopardize our future. Thanks and good luck." If TAFT's bf refuses to do this, he doesn't really care about TAFT and TAFT is bound to get more & more unhappy as the relationship progresses.
Posted by wayne on February 18, 2010 at 5:05 AM · Report this
80
Oh and one other thing: that towel fucker could be me. I thought I was the only one (though the towels themselves were a bit rough so I switched to pillowcases, which I've been fucking for 30 years)

I don't really have a problem w/not being able to come in a partner's mouth or ass, and neither do they. After a long fuck session, I pull out and fuck their pec valley & give tham a shiny new pearl necklace, bringing a whole new meaning to breakfast at Tiffany's.
Posted by wayne on February 18, 2010 at 5:52 AM · Report this
81
Kudos to Dan for suggesting LW2 deal with his lady by actually moving in with her (or at least officially dating her) so he can attempt to deal with the problem organically. As someone with a life long weight struggle (owing to a tumor on my pituitary gland) , I can solidly say that fat people know damn well we're fat; telling us we should lose some weight does jack shit to actually help that. That's like telling someone, oh, you're unemployed? Well get a job! :D What's that? You got laid off and your industry isn't hiring? Well just work fast food, that's super easy! Oh, you have a mortgage? Well uh you shouldn't have gotten laid off! These problems, unlike gum stuck to a shoe, cannot be solved by simply bringing them to a person's attention.

Telling somebody the obvious does nothing to address the underlying cause - which is not always as simple as "lol run around outside!" (shattered kneecaps from an accident) or "don't eat big macs (medical conditions that slow the body's metabolism)
Posted by Actually I'm boycotting McDonalds on February 18, 2010 at 7:03 AM · Report this
Oh Suzanna 82
@ 74: Yes, "People have a right to smoke even if it gives them lung cancer and people have a right to not floss their teeth if they don't want to and people have a right to be fat..."

But people also have a right to feel smugly superior to whomever they want!

Sure you may have a right to make your own choices about your lifestyles, but it is just as surely hypocritical to then dictate how other people must to feel about it.
Posted by Oh Suzanna on February 18, 2010 at 7:09 AM · Report this
83
"Losing weight is a matter of science: if you burn more calories per day than you take in, you will lose weight (or else violate the laws of thermodynamics). Yes, those of us with slow metabolisms burn far fewer calories at rest than those with fast metabolisms. We have to compensate by eating less or burning more through activity."

Thank you. Overweight people offering excuses need to reread that 50 times. "Laws of thermodynamics" in particular. And if you put in 1200 calories and burn 1200 calories each day, you will not ever, ever, ever gain weight. It is physics and chemistry, people, not magic or disease, that determines what you weigh. Physics and chemistry. Calories in, calories burned. Nothing more.

NOW do you understand why people roll their eyes when you say it isn't your "fault"? While it is not an issue of "fault--being overweight is not a crime or anything wrong--it sure as hell is an issue of responsibility for adults. (Fat kids get a pass until adulthood.)

Every single calorie in our bodies are put there by us. Every single one.

Yeah, there is food constantly in reach. Yeah, it is hard to say no to it. And exercise can be a pain. Here is my sympathy. But sympathy will not make the weight go away, so quit trying to play on it.

But whatever else you do, I beg you, stop saying anything else in the universe is responsible for putting more calories into your body than you use. YOU do that, no one else.

Overweight people with excuses are only convincing themselves. Either reduce your calories or up your burn rate. If you don't want to do either, then you accept the condition and own it.
Posted by sympatheticbuthonest on February 18, 2010 at 8:13 AM · Report this
84
Next up, #59 invents the perpetual motion machine and reveals the location of Atlantis.
Posted by Nope, not possible on February 18, 2010 at 8:23 AM · Report this
85
I wonder why everyone assumes that the only way for "Some Dude" to deal with the alleged limitations that his fat partner's girth poses is for his partner to lose weight.

While he didn't bother to elaborate on the limitations, I'd imagine that experimenting with new positions, getting a wedge or foam pillow to use as a prop, or even just encouraging his partner to try out basic flexibility and stretching exercises might all potentially help.
Posted by blu3vibe on February 18, 2010 at 8:28 AM · Report this
86
Maybe TAFT doesn't like the idea of his bf being a low-level sexworker? That seems like a legitimate beef. Right now the young hottie can get paid to let someone clean his apartment. Is he on a "slippery slope?" to becoming a more mainstream sex worker?
Posted by che sera, sera on February 18, 2010 at 8:39 AM · Report this
Jack Frost 87
I personally don't like Dan's advice that much this week.

1) I really *don't* think the first guy secretly wants the old toothbrush man there. And I think it's fair that he doesn't want someone he feels is creepy in _his_ flat, even if it is shared. I think it's fair for Dan to say he should stop and really think about it. But this is his living space. To me, it's a tough one.

2) Don't tell this guy to start going out with the fat girl and then start guilt tripping her. Bullshit.

3) Standard answer here: re-train your dick. But it always makes me wonder... Why is this the standard answer for guys, but girls who need vibrators to get off are told that they "require" vibrators? Do they really? Or is this a double standard?
Posted by Jack Frost on February 18, 2010 at 8:55 AM · Report this
88
55, 83, and everyone else who believes that weight loss = human bunsen burners:

You're forgetting a key phrase in the 2nd law-- within a closed system. People are not closed systems. We're certainly not simple systems. There are bajillions of factors at play in the human body, processes we don't understand yet. Processes we haven't even dreamed of. How do I know this? Well, I'm a chemistry PhD student. Understanding energy is kind of my job. Trust me when I say you're oversimplifying.
Posted by Shoshie on February 18, 2010 at 9:31 AM · Report this
89
"You're forgetting a key phrase in the 2nd law-- within a closed system."

Hmm. Cannot wait for you to identify the third port of entry or egress in the human alimentary canal. Are we breathing in calories?

"Trust me when I say you're oversimplifying."

Feel free to postulate a theory, write a paper and deserve the trust. Until then....

/point&laugh
Posted by phrenologyupdated on February 18, 2010 at 9:54 AM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 90
I thought scientists followed Ockham's Razor?

Which is the more likely hypothesis: that people who are overweight take in more calories than they burn, or that there are some heretofore unknown chemical processes that spontaneously generate calories within certain people, and that those processes are thus far undetectable by any known means, and that the number of people exhibiting these processes happens to correlate with the prevalence of fatty foods and sedentary lifestyles within a society?

Scientists are supposed to look at things objectively. Stop compromising your scientific neutrality in your search for victimhood.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on February 18, 2010 at 11:43 AM · Report this
91
I wonder if anyone anywhere on this planet has ever actually gone from being obese to being permanently thin by eating less and exercising. You people make it sound so easy - but are there any case studies showing that it actually works? Eating less and exercising works great for people who are 5 pounds overweight. But for people who are 100 or 200 pounds overweight? Has it ever worked? Can anyone name a single case of a person who has lost more than 100 pounds doing nothing but eating less and exercising more, and who kept the weight off for the rest of their life? Anyone? Anyone?
Posted by Tonio on February 18, 2010 at 11:59 AM · Report this
92
I'm not a fan of fat women really, and well ... I did love the Norwegan female curling team ... not exactly sure why.

But overall, I'm more attracted to athletes, so I aspire to train like an athlete.

I was insanely happy with a larger discus thrower than some weirdo that smoked herself thin.

I guess, I'm sick and tired of the weight worships, because it means very little to me.

I don't look at a woman's weight, I look at her PROPORTIONS, and if I see some skinny waif with NO ASS whatsoever, I think to myself, she won't keep up with me on the ski slopes, and she will forever bitch that I'm trying to turn our physical activities into some contest (which has been the source of needless fights and why I prefer to work out alone.)

A solidly built fitness junky is surprisingly heavier than you might believe. As a result, weight is like totally meaningless.

Really, I'm more attracted to a woman that knows her body and how to use it, than a woman who knows the needle exchange depot. Most sensible guys would agree. If you just want to pick someone on aesthetics, there is always porn.

Posted by former tri-state on February 18, 2010 at 1:30 PM · Report this
93
And yes, you can lose weight by exercise if you eat less or at least better, and exercise more often, and most importantly do something you are PASSIONATE about. Not because you are trying to impress anyone but because you are passionate about it.

Losing weight step one, STOP DRINKING SODA! I have met so many endomorphs who dropped like 20 pounds simply because they gave up soda. You don't need it, it trashes your body chemistry ... blah blah blah.

Losing weight step two, find something you enjoy physically that you can push yourself 110%. Then set up a routine, relax, and enjoy it. Even if you don't lose weight, you will look and feel better about life, and if nothing else, you have nothing to bitch about anymore. Your friends and peers will see your active lifestyle, and at the bare minimum will stop judging you and let you be happy.

So you hate lifting weights or running, as does 80% of America. But in America, that's the general status quo of fitness. Why don't you do SOMETHING ELSE? Like martial arts, basketball rec league, WALKING. Finding something physical for the sheer happiness of the activity will allow you to make more significant meaning full strides.

And the amazing thing is, your body will adapt to the proportions required by your passion (well to a certain degree ... but more than you would imagine ... and yes it takes time)

And that is step 3 to losing weight, it takes TIME! Sometimes even a decade of commitment. You have to learn to enjoy the process, otherwise you will inevitably fail.
Posted by former tri-state on February 18, 2010 at 1:46 PM · Report this
94
@89, 90: Okay, it's not that there is some mysterious magical way that the body produces calories internally. It's that the body has a goal, a weight that your metabolism tries to steer your body towards. That's the weight you're "supposed" to be, and if you try to exercise more and eat less, or to exercise LESS and eat MORE, your body will adjust its metabolism, and sent urgent signals to your brain, to keep you in the weight range it thinks you're "supposed" to be in. Numerous studies have shown that dieting doesn't work to keep weight off long-term for the majority of people.

So, yay conservation of energy, but no, it's not as simple as eating less and exercising more.
Posted by J22 on February 18, 2010 at 2:20 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 95
Naturally, "dieting" doesn't keep the weight off long-term. If your old lifestyle made you fat, then you switch back to your old lifestyle after you "finish" your diet, then of course you will gain the weight back. And yes, your metabolism demonstrates some inertia when you change your eating habits. That's why you should make as few changes as possible.

This is the problem with dieters: they think they can make temporary adjustments to lose weight, after which they can go back to their old, unhealthy habits. You need to make *permanent* changes in your lifestyle if your prior habits led to excessive weight.

Weight loss, fitness, etc. is a marathon, not a sprint. That's why it takes willpower: because you need to endure as the months and years go on. Yes, some people need to exert more willpower than others to keep the weight off. And yes, there are some fat people who have more willpower than some skinny people, and just lack the genetic blessing the weak-willed, skinny person enjoys.

But weight loss is still a matter of discipline: eat less, exercise more.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on February 18, 2010 at 3:58 PM · Report this
96
@60: It sounds more like 'Hey, piggy piggy' fits YOUR description.

Do you resemble "The Family Guy" with six chins?
Is your current GF a small, meek little stick thin Barbie Doll while you waddle around carrying the House Budweiser Built?

Who's the piggy?
Posted by aunt bee on February 18, 2010 at 4:01 PM · Report this
97
@89, 90: "When you eat 120 calories of glucose, less than one calorie is stored as fat. 120 calories of fructose results in 40 calories being stored as fat. Consuming fructose is essentially consuming fat!" From Dr. Mercola; can be found on the Huffington Post. Living systems are extremely complex and it is highly likely that the unknown unknowns outweigh known knowns. Talk to Stanley Prusiner, who discovered that misfolded proteins can act as infectious agents.
Posted by madelyn on February 18, 2010 at 4:17 PM · Report this
98
@ 89, 90: There are tons of reactions taking place within in the human body. Thermodynamics aren't the only element that controls these reactions. There are also kinetic factors. And there are enzymes involved, which confuse the energetics even further. So, yes, the energy all needs to go somewhere. But it seems laughable that all bodies use energy in the same way. Two bodies certainly don't do anything else the same way.

Furthermore, I don't need to do research to postulate that human bodies are fucking complicated. It's already been done for me, thousands of times over. But thanks for playing
Posted by Shoshie on February 18, 2010 at 5:57 PM · Report this
99
just had to post something... i started putting on weight after i was raped at age 9. now that i've done some introspection, i realized that it was a subconscious way of protecting myself from further pain. at this point in my life, i am walking 2.6 miles per day, living an otherwise active lifestyle, and eating healthy. i lose an average of 1.8 pounds per week.

despite the years of hard work i have put in, if some of you judgmental fuckers saw me walking down the street, you'd still call me a fat bitch. you might even helpfully offer some tired calories in/calories out bullshit, or tell me that maybe i ought to take the stairs, or describe your own workout routine with the kind of pompous zeal usually reserved for televangelists. and you probably wouldn't try to get to know me first.

my addition to the conversation is this - you have no idea what anyone is going through or where they've been unless you respectfully ask. so before you throw ignorant judgments around about all of us 'fatties', have a little compassion and maybe focus on your own side of the street. personally, i am doing just fine cleaning mine, thanks.
Posted by fatchick on February 18, 2010 at 7:38 PM · Report this
100
I am not even going to try to touch the first letter. The second one...So, you can have sex with her (and it is good sex because, you want to be WITH her....I cannot imagine that you would want to be with someone you don't enjoy in bed), but yet you are afraid her weight will effect things you can do in bed? Has this been an issue before? If not, how is it effecting the sex life now ---like I said, I cannot imagine it is effecting things too much if you want a "real relationship" with the girl. The second letter...with the weight thing....the man is just scared of what other people are going to think of him and his "overweight" girl. And just an fyi....I would be considered "overweight" according to the medical scales and charts, but that has NEVER stopped my legs being bent up over my head if the time is right. GET OVER IT!
Posted by blanquita1 on February 18, 2010 at 7:39 PM · Report this
Milbury 101
@LAN8

"Belgian" would be code for watersports. If you don't believe me, visit a Belgian porno shop or fuck a Belgian. At some point, water will be spilled from either your urethra (GGG, emember?) or your partner's eyes. Unless I just happened to meet the dew Belgian WS fans in existence, then ignore this post.
Posted by Milbury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rLkEsoO6t0 on February 18, 2010 at 9:07 PM · Report this
102
Re: not knowing any previously fat people who have lost lots of weight and kept it off. You can hear all about people who have done just that in "Thin for Life", a book about weight loss and maintenance that talks to all those people who have lost weight and kept it off. The thing is, lots of people who have lost weight and kept it off aren't exactly broadcasting "I used to be really fat!"
Myself for example: I was about 30 lbs overweight until my mid 20s. Then, I started regular exercising, low-fat eating and WALLAH... I dropped 30 lbs. It has been 15 years, and I am successfully maintaining it off. Most people never know that I was fat for the first part of my life.
It takes effort, and continual recommittment, but as some say "Being fat is hard, controlling what you eat is hard. You choose your hard.
Posted by lalilolly on February 18, 2010 at 9:34 PM · Report this
103
The system of food and culture and health is larger than a single human body. The system is society-wide. The individual person attempting to eat well is trying to choose the right foods and prepare them healthfully, but must deal with cultural bias, marketing, fucked up government subsidies for cheaper high-calorie, additive-laden processed foods, ignorance, etc. Food is emotional. Food is more than fuel, it is fraught. It is ritual. It is reward. Are you suggesting that you don't sit down with your asshole family for big face-stuffing holiday meals, or some similar bullshit? Food is symbolic? "The system" is not closed. It is complex. It connects us all.

Posted by manitestdestiny on February 18, 2010 at 9:40 PM · Report this
104
I don't see fat people in my yoga classes. Ever.
Posted by albeit on February 19, 2010 at 1:37 AM · Report this
LisaLisa 105
Hey fatchick (#99),

I really appreciate your post. I was raped a few years ago and put on a "protective" layer of fat. I, too, wish people wouldn't be so quick to judge why a person may be overweight.
Posted by LisaLisa on February 19, 2010 at 2:38 AM · Report this
106
These comments are extremely nauseating from a supposedly liberal audience.

I am typing slowly to avoid simply launching into a fit of profanity, but: COULD YOU PEOPLE BE MORE CLASSIST? Jesus Christ, how ignorant can you be? Fat people are far more likely to be also be poor people in this country. Rich people are more likely to be skinny. It's really great that you have a Whole Foods right next door, but a large part of this country is living below the poverty line and facing hunger daily* (yet we're a nation of fatties!) and these people can not afford fresh fruits and vegetables. "Eating healthy" is NOT cheap. What makes more sense to you: feeding your family for $0.49 a head on ramen and paying the rent, or spending $4+ dollars a head on a fresh chicken breast with fresh veggie sides.. which apparently you're also assuming someone has the time to cook. And when exactly is a working single mother, for instance, supposed to have time to hit the gym? Or have the luxury of walking to work instead of taking the bus (assuming she lived somewhere where it was POSSIBLE to walk/bike)?

It's so awesome for you that you can afford a gym membership or live near a community center or can afford exercise equipment or live somewhere where the geography and climate allow you to walk/bike often, but has it occurred to you that not everyone is in the same position? UGH. And please, don't give me shit about "prioritizing your health." When you simply do not have the money and are fighting for your right to food and shelter every day, you don't have the luxury of prioritizing.

Obese children, by the way, are more likely to suffer from MALNUTRITION than their peers. Which can screw up their metabolism. Which will make it that much harder for them to try to lose weight for the rest of their lives, even if they manage to move out of their socioeconomic class.

Also, yo-yo dieting is FAR more unhealthy in the long term than having a few extra pounds but maintaining a steady weight. And all diets fail, sorry. There's not a single one that has a success ratio worth writing home about - including "eat less and exercise!"

So yeah, way to assume everyone is a middle class white person with disposable income and a Curves down the street.

* 49.1 million people in the US live in food insecure households. An additional 17.3 million live in households that are considered to have "very low food security." That's 22% of Americans. 12% of Americans live below the poverty line. 20% of American households (a family of FOUR) live off $19,000/year or less. That's less than $1600 a month.

Healthy foods are expensive. The same groups who tend to be overrepresented amongst the poor (particularly Black and Hispanic women) also tend to be overrepresented amongst the obese.
More...
Posted by slyfox on February 19, 2010 at 3:39 AM · Report this
107
It's nice to see that everyone here is an expert in the field of fitness and nutrition.

Of course, providing weight loss tips to a girl who will never read this is kind of pointless. The advice is for Some Dude, not his FWB. We have no idea how this girl feels about her weight.

He is the one with the problem, so direct your advice toward him.

Posted by BunnyTime on February 19, 2010 at 5:32 AM · Report this
108
Loved the response for Taft - PERFECT.
Posted by Becky MN on February 19, 2010 at 7:44 AM · Report this
109
@106: If you do not have access to a grocery store, then yes I agree with you. But if you do, the idea that healthy eating is always more expensive is bullshit. I can make a pot of lentil soup packed with vegetables for about $4 that will make 6-8 servings, for example. And $4/person for chicken breasts and fresh veggies? Ridiculous unless you are shopping at Whole Paycheck or live in NYC (in which case, my condolences). Buy the produce in season when it's cheapest, buy frozen vegetables instead of fresh, buy on sale, plan your meals around what's on sale, eat less meat- there are tons of strategies. That meal costs my household $1/person. And time? That meal takes all of 10-20 minutes to prepare. And you could double or triple the batch without any extra effort, thus saving yourself from cooking the next night or two. I made a double batch of the above-mentioned pot of lentil soup last weekend- less than an hour of hands-on time made me 12-16 meals. That's about as fast and cheap as the ramen, much better nutrition and will save me from reaching for the fast food on the nights I work late for the next month or so.

I truly do sympathize with people in food deserts or high cost of living areas. But there ARE ways to eat healthfully on a budget. They require some sacrifice and time, but they are possible, and after some practice, they are fast. Hell, even splitting a $1 bag of frozen vegetables among everyone's ramen will improve the situation you mentioned (which is what I did in college when I had a lot less money) with a minimum of time and money.

Two more things:
For anyone interested in these food money-saving techniques, I highly recommend The Complete Tightwad Gazette by Amy Dacyczyn.

Exercise has very little to do with weight loss- a lifestyle change in diet is more important. Exercise does help you keep it off though.

More...
Posted by Midtown Tightwad on February 19, 2010 at 7:52 AM · Report this
110
Again with the fat topic, the weight loss experts and the guys who exploit the insecurities of fat women. I hope you all die agonizing deaths very soon.

Why the fuck should TAFT have to put up with his boyfriend's old perv if they start to share an apartment and it bothers him? Hire a cleaning service. Lots of people really need paying jobs. Pay them well and tip extra. Old perv will find new broke college kid to shit on his toothbrush. That's why he lives in a college town.
Posted by tabett on February 19, 2010 at 7:57 AM · Report this
111
83: but, as other people have pointed out, it is often not simply a matter of "well, eat less or exercise more."

Some people have slow enough metabolisms that they *can't* eat little enough to lose weight and still get enough vitamins, minerals, and other fun stuff like that. And your body will pull fun tricks on you like lowering your metabolism when you eat less, so you have to eat even *less* to actually lose weight. And you get freaking *hungry* when you eat too little, too.

And not everyone has the time and/or resources to exercise much, depending on income, residence, employment, health... if you're working 60-hour weeks or whatever, you need the time that you're not working for important little things like food and sleep. If you can't afford a gym membership, and live somewhere that it's not very safe to walk around at night, your exercise options may be very limited.

I'll admit, my weight is at least in part because I'm a little lazy, and don't eat quite as well as I should. But I walk probably an average of a mile a day (to and from work), along with other bits of exercise, and I eat reasonably well.

Or, in short? While most people could probably lose at least a little weight by reasonable improvements in diet and exercise, that doesn't mean that everyone can be skinny, and that doesn't mean that everyone who's fat is a gorging couch potato. Some people won the skinny lottery, and some people didn't.
Posted by Melissa Trible on February 19, 2010 at 8:49 AM · Report this
112
@ #109
You're missing a GIANT point in 106's perfect argument: POVERTY. And you can't get out of your classist bubble. It's basic sociology. Poor people not only have less access to healthy foods, they also have less access to information about how to eat healthy. Poor people don't scour websites looking for fresh lentil soups that they can make for $1/person; most poor have to walk down to their local library access the internet, do you think that what they're going to do there is look up healthful ways to feed their families? No, because that isn't the way they were raised, that isn't the way they were taught in schools and they don't really understand that it even COULD be any different, much less SHOULD be any different.
For example, I grew up in a poverty-stricken home: my mom worked two jobs and my dad worked three. My siblings and I were only at day care until I was eight, then I babysat and took over a lot of the household management. I cooked mac-n-cheese, not lentil soups. We did what we had to do to survive; my parents were much more concerned with working, paying off the medical bills of an uninsured family of six and pushing us to get the best education possible than making sure we got enough fiber. And you know, it worked. I was the first person in my family to go to college and two of my three siblings followed suit. My parent's sacrifices in their lower-income-bracket shoved all of us firmly into middle-class. And if I moved out of my parent's home fifty pounds overweight but with a college degree that they paid for in blood, sweat and tears, I'll take it.
But anyone who's taken Sociology 101 will remember that MY story of breaking through the class barrier is incredibly rare; most children who grow up in a poverty-stricken household NEVER break out. So what do you do then? Start a charity that goes into the poorest parts of the country to teach poverty-stricken families that for only $20 more per week (If I remember correctly 20% more of my parent's weekly grocery budget) they can add frozen vegetables to their prepackaged meals that add very little calories, only a few more vitamins (BTW cooked cheap-ass frozen has significantly fewer than fresh and even canned... but considering everything is "fortified" now, we're really not looking at the vitamin intake) and that their kids probably won't eat anyway. Yeah, sounds like a lose-lose across the board.
If you can't read your post and see a huge, heaping tablespoonful of classist elitism, you really should just refrain from posting about things you know nothing about.... How're those five dollar text donations to Haiti treating you? Keeping you from having nightmares of emaciated children with fly larvae in their noses? You're an idiot.
More...
Posted by jab2009 on February 19, 2010 at 9:08 AM · Report this
113
One Word... Meth. You ever see a fat meth addict?
Posted by xemoman on February 19, 2010 at 10:11 AM · Report this
luvzhappyboy 114
Dan's right... fat defensive or fat-and-proud or fat derision for even having fat mentioned in the letters from his questioners. In this country, it's all about fat. Yet we're the fattest per capita people on the planet. It's a wonder the world doesn't tilt toward North America. We're WAY too obsessed about it, that could be the REASON why we're fat! I look around me at the mall and see blubber everywhere - muffin tops with cellulite-dimpled skin proudly strolling down the aisles. I myself am no longer svelt, but I'm 62 so I have an excuse. :)

Look, if you guys and gals don't want a fatty, don't hook up with a skinny young person that eats crap all day long... sooner or later it'll catch up to them and they'll be fat and you'll be wondering what the hell happened. And watch your own rear end as well. First, have a little tolerance and lead by example. Secondly, you're doing no one any favors (least of all yourself) by having mercy sex with fatties if you don't want to be seen in public with them. Grow up!!
Posted by luvzhappyboy on February 19, 2010 at 10:39 AM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 115
@112: My family grew up poor too, and we were all pretty thin. We didn't get fat until we moved to this country.

It's pretty funny: Americans who moan about how "poor" they are would be middle-class where I'm from, with their single-family homes, family car, and cable TV. Y'all have waaay more wealth than we had and thus far more options. You're just used to seeing yourselves as victims.

In most parts of the world, people don't have the luxury of being a victim.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on February 19, 2010 at 11:16 AM · Report this
116
@112: I appreciate your passion, and don't doubt your story, and yet I have no idea what your point is. You seem to be arguing "Poor people can't afford to eat healthy, don't have time to deal with the effort involved, and don't really WANT to eat healthy anyway." OK, fine, but as you said yourself: what do you do then?

I'm all for humility and mutual understanding, but the picture you paint comes dangerously close to taking away the only reason for us to care. If people can't help, and it's a lost cause, they'd usually rather just not even know about it. If they don't know about it, they have no grounds to view poor fat folks with compassion, especially since we're socially conditioned and (IMHO) biologically wired to be repulsed by obesity.
Posted by Earl of Sandwich on February 19, 2010 at 11:33 AM · Report this
DonBito 117
@115 - it's pretty funny how you can make this generalization about Americans and say no one in your family was fat until you moved to America, and at the same time deny that social and commercial influences in this country have anything to do with an obesity problem.

Here's a thought: mind your own goddamned business. Personally, I have no intention of sleeping with you and therefore couldn't give two fat shits whether you find me attractive or healthy or think I could change if I tried hard enough. And I'm gonna go ahead and give my fellow humans the benefit of the doubt and say they don't give a shit, either.
Posted by DonBito on February 19, 2010 at 11:34 AM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 118
@117: Was I talking to you? No? Then why are you butting into my business to tell me to mind my own business?

*Laughs*

If you don't care for what I'm saying, then don't read it. I know I won't bother reading anything further that you write.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on February 19, 2010 at 11:43 AM · Report this
DonBito 119
@118 - I'm sorry, who was it you were talking to? Everybody else on SLOG but me?

Oh right you're just jerking yourself off to the sweet sound of putting other people down under the guise of making actual sense.

Have fun with that.
Posted by DonBito on February 19, 2010 at 11:51 AM · Report this
120
@117: Actually, most people give a shit whether other people find them attractive and healthy. It doesn't just affect who wants to sleep with you or date you, but also who wants to be friends with you, to hire you for work, and so forth. Bloviating about how you don't give a shit what Person X thinks isn't going to change that.

Also, I don't think anyone who posts on an Internet message board has the right to tell other people to mind their own business. If you were minding your own, you wouldn't be here.
Posted by @117 on February 19, 2010 at 12:00 PM · Report this
121
Oh, Dan, you have a very, very good chance of being horribly, horribly wrong with FAT. I am a male who can't come reliably any other way than by my hand. I don't want to say FAT grew up the way I did, but 'ejaculatory incompetence' is a real psychological malady and it's not something as simple as someone fucking a towel too much. One common theory is that there is a fear of allowing from the man of allowing his pleasure to be taken from him, of allowing someone else to control his orgasm.

Study into it and try your answer to that person again, please.
Posted by various people on February 19, 2010 at 12:25 PM · Report this
122
The issue here appears to be one of comparative fault.

Basically, people fall into one of two groups on the issue of obesity/fatness/fatties:

1. It's your own damned fault. You chose to eat more than your body could reasonably process without it becoming fat, your lifestyle isn't consistent with being thin. Even if you have a different metabolism, you need to act in such a way as makes up for it. If you're short, but want to play basketball, you'd best learn to jump high.

2. There are people who legitimately are irresponsible. But, to tar the entire population of overweight people as that is irresponsible. Studies do show that the body has a set point of weight, and acts to keep it there. Once you get fat, the body kills your metabolism if you eat less. The body wants to stay overweight, even on a starvation diet. It's not a question of willpower, or dedication, or "simple" solutions, it's about the physiology of it. Once you throw in legitimate addiction to food (where eating releases endorphins), you're basically talking about telling an alcoholic that they have to drink every day, but should never drink too much. It'd be like being a smoker and having to have five cigarettes a day, and expecting to be able to have no more.

My opinion is that it's a bit of both. Take skin cancer, for example. If two people sunbathe for the same amount of time, but only one gets cancer, we don't say to that one "you stupid, irresponsible, cancer-tard". We give him sympathy. If we accept differentiated responsibilities, we also have to accept that someone can act "responsibly" and "moderately" and still get cancer/diabetes/obesity. People can act in exactly the same way, and the more genetically well-off person will have a better life.

So, Fatties: get off your high horses. Accept that people are going to be shallow. Accept that you yourself are shallow in other ways, and that life isn't fair. Stop harping on whether other people are appropriately accepting of what you consider to be (at worst) something foisted upon you by forces outside of your control. Also, not for nothing, but if you really didn't think there's anything wrong with being fat, you wouldn't feel the need to justify it. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm overweight, and I recognize that it's a bad thing, that it's unattractive, and that women are less likely to want me as a result

Fatty Haters: get off your high horses. Accept that different people have different underlying physiology, and that it's not a level playing field. In the same way some people are born with more potential to be intelligent, people are born with more or less potential to be svelte. Stop seeing fat people as lazy or stupid, and stop the condescension of "just eat less and exercise more, fatty".
More...
Posted by Seldon2639 on February 19, 2010 at 12:27 PM · Report this
123
The issue here appears to be one of comparative fault.

Basically, people fall into one of two groups on the issue of obesity/fatness/fatties:

1. It's your own damned fault. You chose to eat more than your body could reasonably process without it becoming fat, your lifestyle isn't consistent with being thin. Even if you have a different metabolism, you need to act in such a way as makes up for it. If you're short, but want to play basketball, you'd best learn to jump high.

2. There are people who legitimately are irresponsible. But, to tar the entire population of overweight people as that is irresponsible. Studies do show that the body has a set point of weight, and acts to keep it there. Once you get fat, the body kills your metabolism if you eat less. The body wants to stay overweight, even on a starvation diet. It's not a question of willpower, or dedication, or "simple" solutions, it's about the physiology of it. Once you throw in legitimate addiction to food (where eating releases endorphins), you're basically talking about telling an alcoholic that they have to drink every day, but should never drink too much. It'd be like being a smoker and having to have five cigarettes a day, and expecting to be able to have no more.

My opinion is that it's a bit of both. Take skin cancer, for example. If two people sunbathe for the same amount of time, but only one gets cancer, we don't say to that one "you stupid, irresponsible, cancer-tard". We give him sympathy. If we accept differentiated responsibilities, we also have to accept that someone can act "responsibly" and "moderately" and still get cancer/diabetes/obesity. People can act in exactly the same way, and the more genetically well-off person will have a better life.

So, Fatties: get off your high horses. Accept that people are going to be shallow. Accept that you yourself are shallow in other ways, and that life isn't fair. Stop harping on whether other people are appropriately accepting of what you consider to be (at worst) something foisted upon you by forces outside of your control. Also, not for nothing, but if you really didn't think there's anything wrong with being fat, you wouldn't feel the need to justify it. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm overweight, and I recognize that it's a bad thing, that it's unattractive, and that women are less likely to want me as a result

Fatty Haters: get off your high horses. Accept that different people have different underlying physiology, and that it's not a level playing field. In the same way some people are born with more potential to be intelligent, people are born with more or less potential to be svelte. Stop seeing fat people as lazy or stupid, and stop the condescension of "just eat less and exercise more, fatty".
More...
Posted by Seldon2639 on February 19, 2010 at 12:28 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 124
Seldon2639: That very nearly tracks with my opinion. I don't like anti-fatty bias, and I have no problem with people who are comfortable with their weight, whatever that may be. I know first-hand that some people have a much harder time losing weight than others, so a person's weight isn't even a good indicator of various mental traits. I don't even make the "health" argument: It's completely reasonable to rather live 55 years eating whatever you damn well please than living 75 years on a regimented diet, and any one of us could be hit by a bus tomorrow anyway.

My only real contention is one of agency: if you don't like some aspect of your life, then work to change it. If the amount of work required to make that change is vast-- which it is for some people, for some situations-- then either accept that the reward is not worth your effort and make peace with that, or get cracking.

In other words, I'm fine with people accepting their weight. I'm fine with people being attracted to different types of bodies. (Full disclosure: I like somewhat curvier gals than society tells me I should.) I'm fine with people trying to lose weight. What I can't stand is people who *whine* about wanting to lose weight but don't commit to doing so.

I guess what I really have is an anti-whiner bias. :)
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on February 19, 2010 at 1:08 PM · Report this
125
I grew up poor as shit too, and I make my meals from scratch. I mean, potatoes are CHEAP, dry beans are CHEAP! I'm a large guy who eats as much as a family of four, and when I sinch my belt, I can eat healthy and cheap on 30 dollars a day.

Do I buy organic? Oh christ no, but every Sunday, I have this major cookathon and stock my freezer.

And really, it's good practice and great community for your neighbors who wonder what smells so awesome in your house.

Hell making my own beer is CHEAP (well, comparatively speaking if I was going to buy it outright.), and certainly quite rewarding.

Hell pasta, CHEAP, and making it from scratch is actually better, and CHEAPER and if you like the wide noodle you don't even need a pasta maker.

And with practice, you can make it roughly 10-20 minutes.

And mother worked, supported us, and made our meals from scratch. We never had pringles, candy or doritos in the house, if we were hungry, we made our food, more often than not ... 20 minutes later ... a satisfied meal.
Posted by former tri-state on February 19, 2010 at 2:42 PM · Report this
126
And it's only partially elitist ... I know plenty of poor fat people (especially from my family).

But they are totally DWELLING on their victim mentality.

Go to any other country and poor people pay triple what we pay for meat, soda, and anything sugary.

And you taste candy from most other countries, and it's not nearly as sweet, will rarely ever have corn syrup.

Seriously, poor people don't shop at "whole foods" and have that crap is loaded with salt anyways.

Poor people everywhere else on the planet make everything from scratch, which is what we USED to do in this country.
Posted by former tri-state on February 19, 2010 at 2:48 PM · Report this
127
I don't know why #8 mocks the term "cleaning lady", as used in the first letter. I see nothing wrong with it. And it's better than the term which my mother used when I was a boy. Until I was ten, I thought "goya" was Yiddish for "cleaning lady"!
Posted by mickey on February 19, 2010 at 2:49 PM · Report this
128
Thank you Dan for your response to LW2 - though I will go one step further and say it sounds like the guy really isn't ready to commit to having a relationship with a fat chick. Unless she's seriously, seriously obese, the positions bit sounds like a red herring - most fat chicks I've fucked have been just fine with standard positions, and if you're talking contortionist level stunts, even skinny chicks will have problems with those if they're not practiced. If the real issue is that he thinks she's attractive enough to fuck, but not attractive enough to live with/show off to his buddies, best he come out with that now rather than move in with her and be pissed off if she doesn't adopt his carrot-eating ways. Will she dump his ass? Quite possibly. Losing weight is not equally easy for everyone, and it takes a long time. Even if she's willing to try, she's probably not interested in moving in if his interest relies on unpredictable results. What if it takes her years to get down to a 'normal' weight? What if she breaks her leg running and gains it back? Bottom line, if you're not into fat girls, break it off and send her my way. I'll be happy to take her off your hands.
Posted by fat bottomed girls on February 19, 2010 at 3:46 PM · Report this
129
@124 Thank you for being sane. As a currently-fat girl, I have little tolerance for people who claim they can do "nothing" at all about their weight. You can at least try.

I will complain, however, when perfect strangers take a look at me and make asshole comments when they know absolutely nothing about my situation. A person's state at one given moment in time is not indicative of a vicious character flaw. For all you know, the fat girl in the elevator has lost ten pounds this month already...or in my case, is coming back from her physical therapist, and is looking forward to the day when I can move my legs well enough to kick your ass ;)
Posted by finally someone sane on February 19, 2010 at 4:20 PM · Report this
130
@125 - Potatoes, beans, and pasta = death for a diabetic. Do you eat anything NON-starchy?
Posted by blahdiblah on February 19, 2010 at 4:21 PM · Report this
131
tristate, all of you are missing the socioeconomic point.

But they are totally DWELLING on their victim mentality.

this is the point. poor people as a whole never learn that life can BE any better. they are victims of circumstance and never learn HOW there is a better way. why do you think most people who win the lottery are broke within five years or why so many NBA stars from inner cities declare bankruptcy after retirement? poverty is a mindset carved through generations. earl of sandwich, it is hopeless. the sociological conditioning that has gone into the modern american poverty mindset is to strong to DO anything about. except to lobby for better education, volunteer in inner cities, accept your unfair share of taxes to pay for social programs. you dont fix obesity in the lower classes, you fix the fact we even have a lower class. you dont go into a burning barn and try to fix the latches on the stalls, you put out the fire first.
Posted by jab2009 on February 19, 2010 at 4:36 PM · Report this
132
I have a fast metabolism; I always have. When I was younger and dumber, I'd eat whatever I wanted (cookie dough for meals, mayonnaise for a beverage...literally) and I still had a teeny little waist and sixpack abs. Now that I'm in my 30s I do have to be a little bit sensible or else my weight starts to creep up, but I can still eat pretty astounding amounts of fat and maintain my figure.

Interestingly, nobody has EVER told me I was being unhealthy--not even during the hamburger-with-a-fried-egg-and-cheese-on-top-for-every-breakfast years. But my overweight friend who ate far better than I did and exercised more had guys constantly assuming that she was a lazy slob, and reprimanding her. "I'm just concerned about your HEALTH," they'd whine. Really? It's not just that you hate fat people? Really?

In conclusion: FUCK OFF, fat haters. Also: thank you, god or genetics or whoever, for giving me a body that is socially acceptable so I can live the way I want to without some nosy fucker whining at me.
Posted by perversecowgirl on February 19, 2010 at 4:55 PM · Report this
133
Wow, this week really applies to me. My husband fucks the mattress when I'm not around, and I don't think he's ever ejaculated when we've had sex. It's disappointing to be on the receiving end of a non-orgasm, year after year.

Also, he was more weighty than I would have liked when we got married, but I thought, "hey, now that we'll be married I'll have more influence over his choices and he'll lose that weight in no time!". My naivete astounds me. Don't be like me. If you don't find it sexy now, don't expect it's ever going to change. And don't ever expect that stepping up the relationship a level is going to allow you to have any more influence over your partner's decisions or lifestyle any more than it does at the lower level. That path only leads to resentment (for both).

As far as I know, he doesn't accept $$ to have someone clean the apartment. If that were the case, I would have to say that the cleaner does a tremendously terrible job.
Posted by tourner a gauche on February 19, 2010 at 6:45 PM · Report this
134
@125

half of these people wouldn't be diabetic if they weren't eating all the sugar all the time.

And yes, that's what poor peasants for like FOREVER. Starch, they didn't have sugar, sugar was an expensive luxury. Only in modern America has the worst of the worst sugar, corn syrup, been a staple of the American diet. The more ubiquitous of cheap sugar/corn syrup, the more obese America becomes.

If you aren't convinced, watch like anything containing normal people prior to 1995, and people are crazy skinnier.
Posted by former tri-state on February 19, 2010 at 7:44 PM · Report this
135
I mean if you are genetically a diabetic, then from what I understand, most forms of starch isn't that bad ... it's sugar that's horrible.

Even then ... you have my condolences. If you are gung ho to go on a ketosis (atkins) diet, then yes you have my condolences for being an impoverished victim
Posted by former tri-state on February 19, 2010 at 7:46 PM · Report this
136
Diabetes IS a genetic thing... At least, for me it is. And sugar and starches are all carbohydrates, which ALL convert into glucose. It's carbs I have to watch out for, not specifically sugar. Yes, there are healthy carbs, but it's still a matter of balancing everything out. And let me tell you, it fucking SUCKS. I can't eat a bloody apple without poking my finger and calculating carb/insulin ratio and then determining whether it's even worth the bother. And the more insulin I have to take, the harder it is to lose the weight. I suppose if I wanted to be really skinny, I could just stop the insulin, and I'd drop forty pounds in a month. Of course, half of my hair would fall out, and I wouldn't be able to see properly, and I might fall into a coma... You know what? I'd rather be fat.
Posted by blahdiblah on February 19, 2010 at 10:58 PM · Report this
137
106
You haven't lived in Vietnam (or other similarly poor nations). Poverty? Almost everyone there is poor (to our standards) and skinny. The thing people are missing is AMERICA. AMERICA is fat. Figure that out, it's not as simple as everyone is figuring it. The food and the drugs and the culture, education, etc... BUT like clockwork, where the western diet goes, the "Western Diseases" go. Obesity, diabetes, etc...

I don't have a problem with people making their own choices about there body, OR peoples rights to their opinions and sexual preferences (fat, not fat etc..). If you are fat and happy, you shouldn't feel the need to defend yourself. Defense seems more of a emotional protector for one defending to feel better about themselves because they are not happy. So maybe they agree, and it hurts to admit it, so they defend?
Just a theory.

Posted by people are everywhere on February 20, 2010 at 1:35 AM · Report this
138 Comment Pulled (Duplicate) Comment Policy
139 Comment Pulled (Duplicate) Comment Policy
140 Comment Pulled (Duplicate) Comment Policy
141
Had some issues posting, my apologies.
Posted by people are everywhere on February 20, 2010 at 1:41 AM · Report this
142
@132 From an occasionally-fat person to an apparently sympathetic naturally thin person, uh, thank you? My brother and I both struggle with our weight because of a congenital birth defect - our weight literally goes up and down depending on how well our hormone therapy is going. I wish I could tell idiots to stop carping on how "healthy" it would be for us to "just lose weight"...uh, it would be healthier if we hadn't been born without major components of our endocrine system. (Thanks Mom and Dad! :P )
Posted by keep on keeping on on February 20, 2010 at 4:31 AM · Report this
143
I'd be worried about passing on some kind of virus, bacteria, or parasite, like E. coli to the toilet bowl cleaning, old tooth brush dude, especially since a dude in his late 60s who would already have somewhat of a depressed immune system. Could be very dangerous to his health or even life threatening.
Posted by bagel on February 20, 2010 at 8:01 AM · Report this
144
@blahdidah,

I'm sorry, type I diabetes does suck.

and type II diabetes, well ... it usually is caused by your lifestyle.

This is not a fat comment, but I thought diabetics in general were encouraged to have more rigorous exercise because it helps them control their sugar level.

Hypoglycemia does run HARD in my family, and that's perhaps one of the reason both my mother and I are always on the go, eat smaller meals, avoid sugar, and became total gym nuts. We really struggle to keep sanity unless we have a regular work out routine.

Watching the Olympics, it's like half these are either diabetic, asthmatic, or even epileptic.

My sister struggles with "weight" but she is also a yoga instructor who is running half marathons, and well, she loves it.

But you know what? Whether she loses weight or doesn't, she lives a healthy active lifestyle and feels better doing it, accomplishes her goals etc. etc. And I'm insanely happy for her. She may not be pole thin, but she looks great, and has more energy for life, and I think most people recognize that and encourage her. Only the most moronic shitheads would dare call her "fat".
Posted by former tri-state on February 20, 2010 at 8:22 AM · Report this
145
I hear a bit of a tone even among the "anti-fatty hater" crowd that being happy as a fat person is a rare/odd thing, and if you can be, great, but most can't. That isn't true, given that there's a lot of fat people out there and their quality of life ranges along a normal distribution just like any other visually distinguishable group. Don't buy into a culture that tries to tell you to hate yourself if you don't slave to live as long, make as much money, and cultivate as much dominion as possible. The "eat less, exercise more" folks should go beyond refraining from nasty insults and "tolerating" their big-boned counterparts; they should try to see fat people and skinny people and ugly people and rich snobbish yuppies as just PEOPLE. Let everyone be happy and decide how they want to live their own lives. Let them be and do away with your disdain.
Posted by dissolvedgirl22 on February 20, 2010 at 12:44 PM · Report this
146
Regarding the fat issue: I was in the U.K. last year. The U.K. is a lot like the U.S. in many ways, except that it works. They speak English, and the ethnic mix (and it is a mix these days) is quite similar. But I wandered the length and breadth of the island, and guess what: NO FAT PEOPLE! NOT ONE! There are probably a few social reasons for it. Decent public transportation which nevertheless forces people to get off their asses. National health care that enables people to get prompt care for mobility issues (foot problems, knee problems, etc.) before it hurts too much to leave the couch. But what it comes down to is that Britons are not lazy, gluttonous pieces of shit. Go and do likewise.
Posted by ashent on February 20, 2010 at 1:48 PM · Report this
147
So being fat makes you a "lazy, gluttonous piece of shit"? That's like a prerequisite and a universal definition? The reason why so many people are so vocal against being overweight is because it's VISIBLE. Everyone can feel okay putting down a fat person at work or in the grocery store and then go home and get plastered/high, smoke their cigarettes, hoard their wealth, and have meaningless sex with their trophy wives/husbands. But to be fat? A fate worse than death, right? If everyone's faults showed on the outside being fat would be preferable to a lot of other states.
Posted by dissolvedgirl22 on February 20, 2010 at 2:08 PM · Report this
148
Why is it the US has a much higher percentage of FAT people than most other countries? It's because USans are lazy, rich, bums who don't walk much, tooling around in their gas-guzzling machines, stopping occasionally to buy some fries or a back of chips. You eat shit you don't need to eat, because you are bored with your shitty suburbs, and, you talk about anti-fatty bias, because you don't realize that you are a bloated testament to all that is wrong with imperialism.
Posted by Bobito on February 20, 2010 at 3:36 PM · Report this
149
Golly. No sexual practice on the planet creates as much outrage as the fat discussion in this group.

I was told don't talk sex, it's a personal topic AND it'll outrage and embarrass people. Guess fatty issues have taken over the role now.
Posted by fat and bored by it on February 20, 2010 at 4:09 PM · Report this
kittenpants 150
I lived in Italy last year and the yr before too... no, people are not fat, but I dont know about more VIRTUOUS... (?) they have to walk everywhere!! people cannot afford a car and a parking space... things are urban and close together and there is public transportation (WALK to the train or bus) plus you WALK to the market which is like 90% produce, which costs NOTHING. you can go with pocket change and come home with three dinners. not only are young people skinnier but REALLY old people are still mobile, climbing long flights of stairs, using the buses... like 90 year olds, I see them every day... here most 90 yr olds are extremely isolated and not very mobile... they are out of practice! once they get too old to drive they just STOP GOING OUT completely! how tragic! and where would they go? you never see old people just playing cards at the park or something... they just go to the grocery store and people act all put upon when they try to make conversation. CITY PLANNING and FOOD/FARMING reforms would be a huge godsend to this country.
Posted by kittenpants on February 20, 2010 at 5:00 PM · Report this
151
F* a Towel has a problem called Traumatic Masturbatory Syndrome, or TMS. Masturbating in the prone position causes sexual dysfunctions in most men who practice it. HealthyStrokes.com has more information and a program for overcoming TMS.
Posted by Former Prone Masturbator on February 20, 2010 at 5:06 PM · Report this
BearNecessity 152
Jeezus, shit happens people. Dan couldn't get a new column in for whatever reason. Put on your big girl panties and deal.
Posted by BearNecessity on February 20, 2010 at 10:54 PM · Report this
153
Couldn't make it thru all the comments, but all the ones from people claiming you can be fat without overeating? Uh, so let me get this straight - these fat people are creating new matter out of thin air?

Wow! How did this contravention of the laws of physics happen and the whole world not know? Fat people are waddling masses of the miraculous.

Or perhaps you believe your body processes a single calorie different from the way a thin person's body does? Somehow your body adds fat from calories but skinny person's body does not. Or that skinny person's metabolism burns up her calorie just by breathing, while you have to run a mile to do the same? Well, actually, there might be some truth to that depending upon how fat you are, what you eat and how you exercise.

But let's cut. the. bull! Studies show that fat people cheat on their eating journals. And think they are eating less than the thin person when they are not - obviously. If, on a continuing basis, you burn more calories than you take in - you will lose weight. If you don't, you won't.

Yes, our Capitalistic, fast food, over-indulgent society is screwed up when it comes to food. And people who tend to overeat are at a disadvantage here in the land of groaning plenty, especially as each generation passes on more fat genes to the next and can't seem to learn any better habits. Life is not fair and the sins of fat parents can sit heavier upon their fat kids.

Just please don't push the bogus claim you are living on the loss side of any calories in/calories out side of the equation but are still fat.
Posted by Liz1388 on February 20, 2010 at 11:47 PM · Report this
154
what the hell? no one asked for weight loss advice, no one cares if you're attracted to fat people, no one cares what your pet theories are about weight, health and diet! none of the letter writers were asking for help with their diets...why exactly are people feeling the need to go on extended lectures about what they believe to be the cause of others' fatness, and how they should stop being fat, etc? if you don't want to have sex with a fat person, don't have sex with a fat person. worry about your own body, and enjoy your fabulous theories about diet and weight and health! but there are actually lots of places where people are seeking weight-loss and diet advice, i just don't see that happening *here*. so why, when some fat person somewhere is mentioned, do people feel the need to weigh in and offer advice about weight loss and diet, when none was solicited and you know absolutely nothing about the fat (or allegedly fat) person in question, and even the question wasn't a request for diet tips?
Posted by it's really weird. on February 20, 2010 at 11:49 PM · Report this
155
@83 wrote: "Standard answer here: re-train your dick. But it always makes me wonder... Why is this the standard answer for guys, but girls who need vibrators to get off are told that they "require" vibrators? Do they really? Or is this a double standard?"

I've been asking this of Dan for years now. He won't even bother to ask his female experts this question. Men might develop a harmful or incompatible method of masturbation but at least the organ that they stimulate is the same one used to get off.

For women, masturbating the vagina using their fingers is not even close to being penetrated and fucked by an erect penis.

Once a female discovers that she can get a much better and more consistent pleasure from masturbating her clit, well, she's never going to go back to vaginal stimulation alone. So all females who masturbate (and this is pretty much all of them), are busy exercising their clits directly.

No man can recreate the effects of a vibrator on the clit or in the vagina. How does all this effect women's ability to achieve vaginal orgasm? Who the hell knows?

There is no way to do a sex study on girls who haven't masturbated to see if giving them dildos to masturbate with would make a difference in their ability to achieve orgasm via coitus. But if men's dicks can be retrained, maybe we ought to look into whether women's vagina's can be retrained.

Why? You might ask. Well, I for one would actually love to be able to orgasm from getting fucked by my man. OK?
Posted by Liz1388 on February 21, 2010 at 12:36 AM · Report this
156
@83 wrote: "Standard answer here: re-train your dick. But it always makes me wonder... Why is this the standard answer for guys, but girls who need vibrators to get off are told that they "require" vibrators? Do they really? Or is this a double standard?"

I've been asking this of Dan for years now. He won't even bother to ask his female experts this question. Men might develop a harmful or incompatible method of masturbation but at least the organ that they stimulate is the same one used to get off.

For women, masturbating the vagina using their fingers is not even close to being penetrated and fucked by an erect penis.

Once a female discovers that she can get a much better and more consistent pleasure from masturbating her clit, well, she's never going to go back to vaginal stimulation alone. So all females who masturbate (and this is pretty much all of them), are busy exercising their clits directly.

No man can recreate the effects of a vibrator on the clit or in the vagina. How does all this effect women's ability to achieve vaginal orgasm? Who the hell knows?

There is no way to do a sex study on girls who haven't masturbated to see if giving them dildos to masturbate with would make a difference in their ability to achieve orgasm via coitus. But if men's dicks can be retrained, maybe we ought to look into whether women's vagina's can be retrained.

Why? You might ask. Well, I for one would actually love to be able to orgasm from getting fucked by my man. OK?
Posted by Liz1388 on February 21, 2010 at 12:37 AM · Report this
157
@83 wrote: "Standard answer here: re-train your dick. But it always makes me wonder... Why is this the standard answer for guys, but girls who need vibrators to get off are told that they "require" vibrators? Do they really? Or is this a double standard?"

I've been asking this of Dan for years now. He won't even bother to ask his female experts this question. Men might develop a harmful or incompatible method of masturbation but at least the organ that they stimulate is the same one used to get off.

For women, masturbating the vagina using their fingers is not even close to being penetrated and fucked by an erect penis.

Once a female discovers that she can get a much better and more consistent pleasure from masturbating her clit, well, she's never going to go back to vaginal stimulation alone. So all females who masturbate (and this is pretty much all of them), are busy exercising their clits directly.

No man can recreate the effects of a vibrator on the clit or in the vagina. How does all this effect women's ability to achieve vaginal orgasm? Who the hell knows?

There is no way to do a sex study on girls who haven't masturbated to see if giving them dildos to masturbate with would make a difference in their ability to achieve orgasm via coitus. But if men's dicks can be retrained, maybe we ought to look into whether women's vagina's can be retrained.

Why? You might ask. Well, I for one would actually love to be able to orgasm from getting fucked by my man. OK?
Posted by Liz1388 on February 21, 2010 at 12:38 AM · Report this
158
@154. I agree that nobody knows individual situations. I wouldn't tell you how to diet or exercise. I was only addressing the commenters like @59 who claim they eat less and exercise more than thin people and can't take any weight off. Not logical.

I'm not talking about getting *thin*. I'm talking dropping weight as opposed to gaining or maintaining.
They can make all the claims they want that they are registering all the food they eat. Somewhere this person is not being honest. Studies show that most overweight people do not record their intake accurately. (Happens to anorexics too in the opposite direction: "I ate as much as SHE did and still lost weight!")

I don't think it is possible that an overweight person can be eating exactly the same number of calories as their thin buddy and whether exercising or not, not lose any pounds. Again, makes no sense.

I think there have been some intelligent things said here about weight and/or diet and nutrition. I found words of wisdom in 83,90,93,95, 103, 120 and 122's comments.

Obviously losing overweight in a nutritionally dysfunctional culture is terrifically difficult. But not impossible once you face the reality of: calories in minus calories out = key to weight loss.

Posted by Liz1388 on February 21, 2010 at 1:11 AM · Report this
159
137-
Seriously, I would think that this point would have been implicit in my post. Way to throw a red-herring into the discussion when all we've EVER been talking about has been OBESITY IN AMERICA, but just to spell it out, the reason why the poor in America look differently from the poor in Vietnam is because the one concession that the American public make toward poverty is easy, cheap access to food... They may be poor, but at least they won't starve to death. Think about how the rest of the world would view the (subjectively) most powerful country in the world if there were children in New York as emaciated as in, say, Haiti.
For example, when we were on WIC, the only foods available to us were sugar-laden fruit juices, whole-fat cheeses, sugar-packed-simple-carb cereals and breads (not quite on-par w/ fruit loops, but pretty bad). Food stamps, even now, can be used on chips, soda, candy, you name it. So while there's plenty of food available to the poor in our country, there's still nothing that breaks the nutritional cultural mores of the lower classes.
Posted by jab2009 on February 21, 2010 at 7:45 AM · Report this
160
146 Obesity rates are higher in the UK than the US. Depressingly true. There are just more of you over there in total so you have more fat people.
Posted by private universe on February 21, 2010 at 12:34 PM · Report this
161
@154: "why exactly are people feeling the need to go on extended lectures about what they believe to be the cause of others' fatness, and how they should stop being fat, etc?"

Because there's no consensus on whether being fat is evidence of a character flaw (laziness and gluttony), or just a value-neutral thing that's out of a person's control, like being blonde-haired or short or whatever else.

Problem is, both things are true. There are people who are fat because they lack self-control and eat to excess. We've all known people who were complete pigs, and whose waistline showed it.

There are also people who are fat for reasons beyond their control -- for instance, because their genes put their body into "starvation mode" whenever they go below a certain weight. For them, the price of being skinny is feeling like shit, all the time, nonstop. Medications can do the same thing. But knowing all that doesn't change the instinctive repulsion that many people feel when seeing someone fat.

In addition to all the social reasons, there's some biological evidence that it's a hardwired reaction. For some men, maybe it's because a fat woman reminds them of their fat mother, and the thought of fucking someone like that is Oedipal in all the wrong ways. There was also a theory floating around a while back that some ancient aspect of the male brain (can't really call it the "lizard brain") thinks fat = pregnant or old or unhealthy = not currently fertile = not suitable for fucking. (It's not irrational to be repelled by something you perceive as unhealthy; in fact, it's a great survival instinct.)

Naturally, fat people bristle when they're called lazy and repulsive. Meanwhile those who find fat people repulsive, and don't want to have to look at them or accept them, get pissed off when they're told it's wrong to think that way, and lectured that they need to be "fat-blind" in their daily lives and dating habits. Hence the impasse.

The only solution is a compromise on both sides: yes, for fat-haters to acknowledge that their behavior can be hurtful, and to rein it in, but also for fat-defenders to admit the inherent precariousness of their own position, and acknowledge that for many (not all) people who are genuinely obese, it's a product of their own decisions and choices.
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Posted by ambivalent on February 21, 2010 at 2:20 PM · Report this
162
#55 - That whole "burn more than you eat" line is NOT true. Counter intuitive on the surface though it may be, but metabolism is not that straightforward. Food affects hormones, and hormones regulate food storage mechanisms and processes in our bodies. Different foods impact hormones differently, and there are natural hormonal variances between different people. Anyway just about everyone seems to agree with you, but you're all missing a core component of the true picture of weight loss/weigh gain cycle.
Posted by Racing Turtles on February 21, 2010 at 4:33 PM · Report this
163
I thought the letter from TART was creepy and not because of the arrangement he described between his bf and the elderly professor. TART uses the phrase "old perv" six times in his rant. It seems that in TART's estimation gayworld should only be populated by young things like himself; anyone outside that demographic is a pervert. Welcome to homophobiaville. You should have called him on that Dan.
Posted by ganza on February 21, 2010 at 6:28 PM · Report this
164
#156: How old are you? Young, right? As you get older, the capacity for orgasm IMPROVES. I never used to get off on regular intercourse; it was only when I got older that it started to happen. Look for it to start about age 36. Something to look forward to!
Posted by Babalon on February 21, 2010 at 9:19 PM · Report this
165
But I just don't get why people feel a need to have tons of opinions about the bodies of other people, when those opinions are unsolicited.

Again, no one's asking you to fuck them. No one's asking you for diet advice. No one's asking Dan for that, either. So really, it's weird.

Seriously, if a letter about someone else's smoking appeared, I would find it equally bizarre to read over 100 comments from people opining in general about smoking and how bad smoking is and your best advice about quitting smoking, unless someone was actually asking for that advice.

I'm not even comparing being fat to smoking, I guess I just don't understand why other people's bodies are always a ground for debating your "values". Is this supposed to be the new alternative to stupid sex panics? Everyone's too cool to get in a panic about omg, people having sex with multiple partners, or people having some sort of sex that you don't want to have personally, so now it's all about body size and diet?

Really, I so don't care what you eat. I hope you enjoy your food and your lives. I don't think it invests you with any sort of moral virtue or weakness because, really, it's just food.

If you're happy with your body, and your diet, etc, that's fabulous. Good for you!

But if you're so happy and satisfied, why on earth do you need to make it some form of moral crusade?
Posted by Really, it is weird. on February 21, 2010 at 11:18 PM · Report this
166
TAFT. See that gift horse? Quit staring at its teeth. ...and by the way, who says "normal" people can't have an elderly pervert cleaning their house and beating off afterward?
Posted by tandykins on February 22, 2010 at 5:01 AM · Report this
167
Ok, I'm just throwing this out there...

You're gross. When I think about you and what you do, it makes me want to throw up! I'm surprised anyone sleeps with you and thinking about the very act fills me with disgust. I'm not entirely certain why you are what you are, but I've heard it from several, unnamed sources that it's your choice and therefore your fault. Your very behavior is fraught with moral and physical peril. Diseases that can kill are rampant with your kind. The lifestyle you lead will destroy any child you have, making them just like you. You should quit doing what your doing and start a regimen of denial. If you're depressed, withdrawn or deprived you should simply suck it up; society doesn't want or need your kind around. You're unnatural, unnecessary; a bane of society and you must be punished until you go away or conform.

Does this sound familiar? Does any of it sound close to what you've heard in your life, directed at you or a loved one? Something that made this column and it's openness feel like a safe place to come to?

Does this sound like something you may or may not have said or thought during the course of this chat about another lifestyle?

It just floors me how people who claim to be soooo tolerant of one lifestyle yet expose themselves as the biggest bigots around about another lifestyle.

And before people jump all over me about how one is "inherent" and the other a "choice" let me remind you all that 52% of Americans have for the past forty years believed that homosexuality is a "choice" (from a recent Gallup poll to explain why so many Americans approve the repeal of DADT yet continue to fail to support gay marriage). And also, let me remind you that there is very little evidence to support the "theory" that homosexuality is a biological trait.

And anyone who throws that stupid Nutrition for Dummies calories-in-minus-calories-out metabolic formula, just Google "Homosexuality is a Choice" and SEE how many people have the similar dogmatic, freshman opinions and regurgitate them without proper thought or research online.
More...
Posted by jab2009 on February 22, 2010 at 10:04 AM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 168
@162: Nothing you wrote contradicts "burn more than you eat." All you've shown is that the rate of burn is not consistent, which I freely admitted. Hell, my whole point was that some people's metabolisms are really slow, and thus they don't need to (and shouldn't) eat as much as others.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on February 22, 2010 at 10:48 AM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 169
jab2009, I'm not sure why it's so important to you to deny all agency for weight gain, but I think your passion is dampening your reasoning. Are you really equating prejudice against fat people with prejudice against gays and lesbians? Can fat people marry? Was being fat illegal in more than a dozen states until 2003? Do fat people worry about being killed just for being fat? Are fat people regularly disowned by their family members for being fat? Etc.

I think we all agree that there is anti-fat bias in the country, and I think we all agree that some people have to exert a lot more effort to control their weight than others. But asserting that obesity is an immutable characteristic with the same social stigmas as homosexuality is taking the argument too far.

There are a whole lot of fat people in the country. Of the fatties who would rather be thinner, some will think that their weight is within their control, and some would rather blame everything else (society, genetics, etc.) Of the dissatisfied fatties who assert agency, some will lose weight and some won't. Of the dissatisfied fatties who play the victim, all will keep the weight on. Which is the more productive attitude?
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on February 22, 2010 at 11:47 AM · Report this
170
@JDKing: Please get over yourself. Everyone knows that "eating right and exercising" is much more difficult for some than others. It's awesome that you were able to make that lifestyle change, and I'm sure it was very difficult, but stop being so angry at those who still struggle with it (i.e. your family). If it were that simple, there wouldn't be obese people. Few people want to be overweight, just like few people want to be homeless, but clearly there is something much deeper going on. Be happy for yourself and sad, not angry, for the people who can't seem to achieve what you have.
Posted by applesauce on February 22, 2010 at 2:02 PM · Report this
171
@LAN8m Hralf, Milbury, etc. (a non-obesity strand)

Not Italian for bisexuals, Swiss: it is already linguistically mixed, having French, German, and Italian speakers. Belgium for water sports is good, although I feel bad being so Euro-centric. What delicious sex act can we call Thai?
Posted by Brashion on February 22, 2010 at 2:40 PM · Report this
172
to 161, s/he wrote:
"There are people who are fat because they lack self-control and eat to excess. We've all known people who were complete pigs, and whose waistline showed it.

There are also people who are fat for reasons beyond their control -- for instance, because their genes"

I just spent 3 weeks in Spain - I din't see a single "fat" human there. At layover in Amsterfam - same thing: no "fat" people. As soon as I landed in Meniapolis... gosh, virtually evryone was "fat". Any theory about that?
Thx

Posted by sval on February 22, 2010 at 2:52 PM · Report this
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@125- $30 a day is A LOT of money for food. Seriously, if I could spend that much on food every day I would be incredibly happy.

@106 - My budget for food is $5 a day. That means YES, I buy dry beans and soak them. And I make HUGE pots of bean soups to last me all week. But it also means frozen vegetables are a luxury. Throwing a bag of frozen veggies into my ramen is NOT better because it is more expensive for me. The only veggies I can afford are roma tomatoes, cabbage, onions, bulk carrots, and a few others. All from the cheapest supermarket which, thank god, happens to be in my neighborhood.

I can eat healthy and survive on $5 a day ONLY because I have the time to cook/prepare fresh veggies. And I wouldn't even say I'm eating all that healthy since my budget doesn't afford me a variety of fruits and veggies.

I really feel for the other people in my neighborhood who don't have the time that I do to cook. There are nights where the only thing I do have time for is a can of condensed soup or ramen.
Posted by graffitipassion on February 22, 2010 at 4:04 PM · Report this
bigg 174
@171 "What delicious sex act can we call Thai?"

Why, bondage, of course!
Posted by bigg http://biggblah.blogspot.com/ on February 22, 2010 at 5:30 PM · Report this
175
Notes to all the people saying "ENDOCRINE DISORDERRRS"!

While this may be true, some people have endocrine disorders, do you look around and see 500 pound people on scooters, and think 'wow these people ALL have endocrine disorders!!"

I cannot believe that 25% of the population has some sort of genetic disorder that prevents them from being within normal margins of weight, even with healthy eating and active living. What, did the whole population of Canada, the US, Australia and Western Europe all develop genetic anomalies in the last 25 years which have lead us to be WalMart fat? I don't think so. AMAZING how people in every other part of the world doesn't have the same genetic conditions, so they can be skinny...or is it that they don't have transfat saturated food and cars to take them everywhere?

Most people who are overweight are overweight because of poor eating habits and lack of exercise. I'm not saying its easy in this day and age, hell, I'm chubby too. But I don't make excuses for it.
Posted by Caralain on February 23, 2010 at 3:51 AM · Report this
176
I'm listening to the new podcast.

women SO DO do anonymous sex.

As an heterosexual anonymous sex aficionado, I can say this with some authority.

Granted. craigslist et all is flooded with gay men, but the women are out there. It's much rarer than men, but it certainly exists, and among perfectly ordinary women.
Posted by Doot on February 23, 2010 at 4:59 AM · Report this
177
159
The only point I was contradicting is that it is 'poverty' that has to do with it. You just mentioned access and what that means in America, so perhaps you didn't follow your own argument to the real issue. It's what America eats and classifies as 'food' etc. NOT the poverty in and itself. Vegetables and fruit are cheaper than many things at the grocery store. That's all I'm saying. No red-herring, just a different opinion than yours.
P.S. I could give a shit what you (or anyone else) put in your body, just don't tell me what to think about it.
Posted by people are everywhere on February 23, 2010 at 5:04 AM · Report this
178
and lol @ this thread bringing all the fatties out.
Posted by Doot on February 23, 2010 at 6:13 AM · Report this
John Horstman 179
@JDKing: I'm not sure what your issue with "fat defense" is - as far as I can tell, no one is saying that YOU need to be attracted to or date "overweight" (I always wonder: over WHICH weight?) persons. People should fuck those to whom they attracted (with the caveat of consent, of course). There are a number of factors that determine adipose (body fat) retention. Consuming fewer calories than one consumes will inevitably result in weight loss, although it will not necessarily be adipose tissue that it lost, and will not necessarily be healthy. Metabolism determines the rate at which calories are burned both at rest and during exercise and as lemonrose points out, this can vary between people. Basal metabolism is dependent upon many factors including genetics, stimulant consumption, caloric intake, general activity level, and others. But metabolism is not the only, or even most important, determining factor in adipose retention. If you think about it, the fact that you WILL lose weight if you expend more calories than you consume and the fact that most people are not continually losing weight means that most people continually consume slightly (and in some cases greatly) more calories than they expend. In fact, this is healthy, as much of our industrially-produced, genetically-engineered food lacks sufficient vitamins if only expended calories are consumed. The biggest difference between chronically skinny and chronically fat people is the extent to which they store excess calories as body fat. This is largely genetic, the result of tens of thousands of years of evolution in environments with different food production patterns. Body fat is extremely useful in colder climates, as food may only be available for part of the year, so storing excess calories (at the expense of having to expend some extra energy to haul those calories around) increases the chances of survival and reproduction (adipose also helps insulate the body, which is useful in cold climates). In warmer climates, food is typically available year-round, and the advantages of not having to haul more weight around outweigh the advantages of having stored energy available.

The upshot is that it's actually HEALTHIER for some (actually, I'd bet on most) people to be over the (extremely low) normative attractive adipose percentage in our society, assuming always that one is getting one's calories from nutrient-rich sources and not junk food. And, like lemonrose, if one's goal is health (and not a specific target weight/adipose percentage), one may well find that exercise and healthy eating will still result in one being "fat". You're absolutely correct in stating that eating junk food is not healthy and certainly can contribute to adipose retention, but it's hardly the only factor - just look at the population of people who eat junk, never exercise, and are almost completely free of body fat.

Exercise and a diet low in empty calories are both important factors in maintaining general health - adipose percentage is not. There ARE correlations between high percentages of body fat and health problems, but these are due to the fact that fat retention is a SYMPTOM of various diseases/conditions/unhealthy behaviors including diabetes, thyroid damage, junk food diet, and lack of exercise; things like heart disease have common causes (like those above) shared by high levels of body fat, but the fat itself is not the cause. The only health problems that are actually CAUSED by body fat are increased joint and muscle strain, particularly in the knees and back, as the greater amount of weight increases stress on these areas.

I'm not saying that anyone SHOULD be sexually attracted to larger people or that anyone is somehow a bad person for not being attracted to larger people, but I do think it's interesting to look at WHY people generally are not in our culture, because it's not a biologically-informed sexual selection preference.

Finally, the letter screams fat-phobia to me; the guy's totally fine with having sex (friends-with-benefits) with this woman, so it's clearly not an issue of sexual attraction. The only difference with dating is that dating is a public act, which means others will see him dating 'the fat chick'; therefore, this is the likely source of his discomfort.
More...
Posted by John Horstman on February 23, 2010 at 11:15 AM · Report this
180
^ oink oink
Posted by Doot on February 23, 2010 at 5:45 PM · Report this
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@175

You do realize that there's no genetic predisposition in the world that will cause problems if you don't expose yourself to the base causes, right?

If I have a predisposition to alcoholism, but I never take a drink, I can't become an alcoholic. Access to higher-quality, relatively cheaper, and more high-calorie foods accounts for the difference. This isn't a sudden thing in the past twenty-five years, it's been going on for a while in Western society. We're getting fatter because our bodies are maladaptive to a modern environment. We're *supposed* to like sweets and fats, and to gorge, since historically we didn't always know when our next meal would be.

*shrugs*. I agree that we should admit that fat people are fat due to diet, but there's no logical basis for the assertion that the only factor is whether they overeat. Overeat is entirely normalized to the individual.

It's not a level playing field, is my point. We can admit with a grave sensitivity that a person predisposed to obesity has to be more careful, more responsible, more disciplined. A fat person must eat less in order to eat an appropriate amount for his or her body. But that's not a standard we apply elsewhere. We don't (as a society) look at someone who gets skin cancer and say "see, dumbass, you shouldn't have gotten a tan".

It's even worse for someone who's predisposed to obesity. Imagine being alcoholic, but still having to have two (and only two) drinks a day. You can't avoid it, but you can't have any more. That'd suck, huh?

Pointing out the element of personal responsibility is entirely reasonable. Asserting that there is no other factor is either ignorant, or unreasonable.
Posted by Seldon2639 on February 23, 2010 at 6:39 PM · Report this
182
@164: Babylon: GOOD response to @156!!!
Right OHN!!!!
Posted by wileEcoyote on February 25, 2010 at 8:38 PM · Report this
183
Thanks, Dan, for speaking up for us old pervs, but I wonder if the guy cleaning the boyfriend's apartment was younger would still have been a perv? Just because you're older and attracted to younger men doesn't make you, in and of itself, a perv. If it did, there'd be no daddyhunt or silverdaddies or a wonderful 24 year old man in this 59 year old's heart, life and bed.
Posted by USBear2012 on March 16, 2010 at 6:19 AM · Report this
184
@LAN8 Can't call Belgium AS versatile anymore--banning Muslim headgear would translate in sex land to being against some kinds of bondage, powerplay, roleplay, etc...

Versatile might just be the UN, but if you just want 1 crazy-varied nation of kinks (and lucious--licious, too, my typo the first round of tapping this out--women, from celebs to most everyday gals)... INDIA! Cmon, if language is to position, religious diversity as to partner arrangement, and foods are to toys (though I will stick to mangos and not ask to lick curry off anyone)...

I vote India. We DID get virtually every exotic FLAVOR from them, even "vanilla," and yknow, what would the world be (apart from population-balanced?) without vanilla sex, not to mention yummy lubes?
Posted by Too lazy to log in on April 12, 2010 at 6:33 PM · Report this
185
I can really identify with "towel fucker," except that I have little problem coming when mouths are involved. My problem is that I rarely have such opportunities.

My other problem is that I seem to get come on the mattress sometimes, probably not a good thing, even though I wipe it off.
Posted by kokomokid on March 1, 2011 at 10:47 AM · Report this

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