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In Your Image

October 14, 2010

I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.

If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man.

To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are all imperfect, fallible, and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.

Please consider your viewpoint, and please be more careful with your words in the future.

L.R.

I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.

No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.

A question: Do you "support" atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there's no "Christian" movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?

Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it's clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are "better or more worthy" than others.

And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.

Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not "sinners." Gay and lesbian children.

Try to keep up: The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of "faithful Christians," and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that "faithful Christians" drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don't have to explicitly "encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate" queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It's here, it's clear, and we're seeing the fruits of it: dead children.

Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words?

Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call Mom and Dad.


I am engaged to a man whose sexual orientation is somewhat confusing to me.

A few months ago, I discovered transgender porn on his computer. When I asked him about it, he said he just watches all kinds of porn "just to watch it." That sounded like total bullshit to me—and it was proved to be total bullshit when I discovered that he watches ONLY this type of porn. I also recently discovered a letter he had composed a few years back to another man asking him to "hook up." The letter also states that my fiancé had a girlfriend, and since "discretion is very important" to him, he could only hook up when she was out of town.

I can deal with somebody being bisexual. I have bisexual fantasies myself. However, I can't deal with someone lying to himself and to me, and being unfaithful. Sadly, I can't really make this guy confess to me that he is bi. When I tried, he simply told me, "You are so blind." What does that mean?

I really don't want to dump the guy. I love him. My question is, I guess, what the fuck do I do? I feel like crazy bitch supreme trying to get this out of him, but it's impossible not to think about.

Bitchy Girlfriend

There's nothing to be confused about: Your fiancé is very clearly bisexual. Gay men just aren't into chicks-with-dicks porn; that's a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers.

So why can he be open about his cocksuckery with a complete stranger—that dude he sent the letter that you "discovered"—but not with you?

It's a tired cliché, I realize, and I shy away from it for that reason, but in this case the shoe fits: Your fiancé has a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He finds it easier to be open with someone he doesn't care about and is unlikely to see ever again precisely because he doesn't care about that person and isn't going to see him again. If you or the other people in his life he's close to knew, he fears you would see him as damaged or inferior because that's how he sees himself.

So, yep, a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He's not entirely responsible for contracting this malady—our homophobic culture is the disease vector here—but, as an adult, he is responsible for working through it, for overcoming it, for being truthful with himself and the people he claims to love.

If he can't be honest with you—the snoop he claims to love—about his sexual orientation, and if being cheated on is a deal breaker for you (and he will cheat on you), don't marry him.


I'm a loud fucker, just like the partner of the woman who wrote in recently. With my consent, my partner uses a pillow to dampen my screams, so I don't have to worry I'll piss off the neighbors.

Lesbians Do Scream

It's all fun and games—loud fun, ear-splitting games—until someone accidentally asphyxiates a screamer. But thanks for sharing, LDS.


mail@savagelove.net

 

Comments (386) RSS

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1
fantastic response to the "Christ follower"!
Posted by AbbyR on October 12, 2010 at 6:25 PM · Report this
2
Way to knock it to 'em Dan! What the sensitive Christian should really be writing in is an apology letter on the behalf of all tolerant and forgiving Christians to gay kids everywhere. Or to kids of color, or kids that speak Spanish at home, or any of the other kids that are routinely harassed at schools because bigotry is tolerated and being anything outside the norm is not.

Posted by elena rose on October 12, 2010 at 6:29 PM · Report this
3
I read the first letter earlier this week because it was already being passed around by friends of mine who don't even read Savage Love. I think this response is really important. People need to reconcile their intentions with the actual effects of their actions. Also,I'm curious to see if any gay guys are going to contradict him on the transgender porn thing.
Posted by Miss Ohio on October 12, 2010 at 6:30 PM · Report this
4
Dan, you put to words all the feelings and emotions I experienced while reading LR's letter: 'look in the mirror first before you start pointing fingers.' You say it best and I'm so glad you do.
Posted by kittyburp on October 12, 2010 at 6:34 PM · Report this
5 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
6
Bravo Dan!!!
Posted by frosty83 on October 12, 2010 at 6:38 PM · Report this
7
Make love, not god!
Posted by spoon on October 12, 2010 at 6:44 PM · Report this
8
Exactly how does a lesbian use a pillow to dampen her partner's screams if she is fingering or eating her gal out? The screamer must get off at the slightest touch. Just sayin'
Posted by Approaching 40 in LA on October 12, 2010 at 7:13 PM · Report this
9
Powerful response to LR, and great talking points for us in discussions about marriage equality.
Posted by Sea on October 12, 2010 at 7:31 PM · Report this
10
LR's letter on top of some of the shit we are hearing from Carl Paladino fills me with hurt and anger. Thank you for being a big voice out there, Dan. I do (and I'm sure many other readers do as well) the best I can to be a voice in my community, with my family and friends, but it is heartening to have the affirmation you provide through the work you do on the national stage. Thank you.
Posted by Well, here goes on October 12, 2010 at 7:32 PM · Report this
11
Jesus, can I write an apology letter on behalf of all sane Christians everywhere? A few points; no Christian who has spent more than thirty seconds contemplating the handful of references to gay sex in the bible believes gay sex to be an abomination because that's a pretty serious mistranslation of the Hebrew word toevah, which essentially just means ritually unclean, just like cheeseburgers, shrimp cocktail, clothes made of flax and wool, and menstruating women.

His blood is upon him may have had something to do with the elevated likelihood of catching some sort of fecal born bacteria such as E. Coli from anal sex in the pre-astroglide pre-enema days. And for fuck's sake Christians don't actually follow Kosher laws anymore, so unless you "smaller government" people want the rest of us telling you that you can't have cheeseburgers or bacon, shut the ever living fuck up already.

Posted by anne77 on October 12, 2010 at 7:35 PM · Report this
12
Dan, next to my Dad, you are my hero. Thanks for your directness and your passion. This first letter is SO important. I have sent it on to my family and friends. It is a discussion that EVERYONE must have.
Posted by pdxblueyes on October 12, 2010 at 7:41 PM · Report this
13
@5 - I think Dan was actually being facetious with the first part of that statement, "there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace." He was highlighting one of the many bricks that L.R. has used to build the Christ=Love fantasy fortress around herself and her family.
Posted by nyker on October 12, 2010 at 7:43 PM · Report this
14
I don't watch porn... but if I did, I'd probably watch chicks-with-dicks porn. I've always thought trannies were hot. Oh, and I'm a mostly-straight woman.
Posted by kate the great on October 12, 2010 at 8:33 PM · Report this
15
I still wish you'd mention the good Christians more. I'm a member of UCC, and my denomination believes in gay rights and accepts homosexuality. I know you posted the video from a UCC pastor earlier this week, but I think it would be nice to mention in your column that you're not attacking all people of faith, you're specifically attacking people like L.R. who choose to use their religion to justify bigotry. I don't know if you made that clear in the interview they were referencing, I didn't see it. I'm just saying, the good Christians don't get as much press, because peace and non-judgment tend not to be as vocal, although the UCC has been pretty vocal in its support of gay rights.

Also, just want to say. I know tons of straight guys into Futa (dickgirls). So he might not be bi. The way one friend explained it. I like women, but I know how to pleasure a penis since I have one, so girl with penis is appealing. Because I guess girl parts are more of a rubik's cube so it's easier to fantasize about cock, because they know how to get one off. So lots of straight guys like that, and it's generally considered gay. So if the person he hooked up with was trans, he might just have a kink rather than an orientation. Also, if he likes chicks with dicks, as she asked if he'd be into role play with a strap on?
Posted by CameoAmalthea on October 12, 2010 at 8:54 PM · Report this
Arsfrisco 16
@11 thanks for speaking up - that you are speaking out as a Christian is huge. When somebody is getting bullied or bashed there are also the bystanders who do nothing. They can choose to be complicit cowards or they can step in. Likewise in the "grown-up" world of words there are people who may not be active bigots but are complicit by keeping silent. I hope more sane Christians like you will speak out against the fanatics who twist their religion into a perverse joke. I was raised Jewish and am now atheist but the therapist who saved my life was a Christian monk - I have respect for anyone whose faith leads them to do the humane thing.
Posted by Arsfrisco on October 12, 2010 at 8:55 PM · Report this
17
Thanks Dan. The God and His son I believe in and follow are loving. As a Christian, I really do get sooo tired of so-called Christians missing the overall point: "love one another as I have loved you."

We judge each other every day, based on our ACTIONS. That's fine. I do too. Cheating, lying or stealing aren't cool. Jails are full of people who have been judged by others because of their actions. But I don't judge based on who we ARE or what we are composed of. The God I know made all of us, and loves us all. He's with us when we're born and when we check out. Inbetween, we're supposed to be getting it right such as loving our neighbors as much as we love ourselves.
Posted by whatdayisit on October 12, 2010 at 9:01 PM · Report this
18
The God and His son that I believe in and follow tell me to "love one another as I have loved you."

So, I judge people by their hurtful ACTIONS, not by who they ARE. And I assume and hope they would judge me the same way.
Posted by whatdayisit on October 12, 2010 at 9:19 PM · Report this
19
BTW -
Thanks Dan. Underlying your answers is always the theme of doing the right thing by each other.
I consider myself a Christian and yes, some of my best friends ARE gay. As MLK said, if I judge at all, I judge people on the content of their character.

Also, the comments here that address those of us who stand on the sidelines not speaking up - you're right. I personally need to do more speaking up.
Posted by whatdayisit on October 12, 2010 at 9:24 PM · Report this
Arsfrisco 20
PS. Heaven is Dan on NPR.
Posted by Arsfrisco on October 12, 2010 at 9:32 PM · Report this
21
I'm gay. I fuck and am fucked by men... and every now and then I watch a little trans porn or a little straight porn and get off. Who knows? I even sort of found lesbian porn interesting, once.
Posted by marquito on October 12, 2010 at 9:46 PM · Report this
BEG 22
Someone else already summed the crux of this issue far better than I ever could:

"Dear America, when you tell gay Americans that they can't serve their country openly or marry the person that they love, you're telling that to kids too. So don't be shocked and wonder where all these bullies are coming from that are torturing young kids and driving them to kill themselves because they're different. They learned it from watching you." Sarah Silverman


This is why no one can just sit on their butts and wring their hands over this and expect that to be good enough. The extent of heteronomativity in our society means that fixing things is going to be a matter of getting off your butt and DOING something about it. Churches need to do these things: announce from the pulpit that gay bashing is unacceptable. Put up signs denoting safe spaces. Run short classes for the kids making it clear that bullying and gay bashing are unacceptable. Parents: make it clear to your kids that you would love them, gay or straight. Tell them that everyone is entitled to the same treatment as any one else.

If you are doing nothing, you are part of and complicit with the problem. It really is as simple as that.
Posted by BEG http://twitter.com/#!/browneyedgirl65 on October 12, 2010 at 10:56 PM · Report this
23
I'm sorry, but there are no "good Christians." The so-called good Christians are what make the bad Christians possible, by supporting an evil, bigoted book, and going along with a historical and cultural tradition that has caused immense suffering over 2000 years.

If you think of yourself as a "good Christian" who supports gay rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you're a good Christian.

As much as I hate bigoted, anti-gay Christians, at least they're honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it's pretty clearly not in support of gay rights.
Posted by BlackRose on October 13, 2010 at 1:03 AM · Report this
24
@ BlackRose: Why should some (usually misintepreted) "bad" verses outweigh all of the "good" ones in the Bible? Why should we "good Christians" be judged by the actions of a) a bunch of long-dead people or b) the hateful ones living today? An earlier poster spoke of judging people for what they do, not for what they are; but you are saying we should be judged by what _other_ people do and say?? No.

I write this as a historian and a life-long Christian who is well aware of the atrocities Christians in the past have perpetrated on gays, women, non-whites, non-Christians of every kind, and--heck--other kinds of Christians. Because you know what? Power can do that to all kinds of people, whether they are Christ-followers or not.

The Bible is a complex historical document inspired by God but written by real human beings living in very different societies. This is why hermeneutics for our own modern times is so important: to discover meanings relevant to us today. On the other hand, sometimes it's a question to returning to meanings that would have been obvious to ancient audiences but have been obscured by cultural changes. Just yesterday I read a sermon (http://www.thegodarticle.com/3/post/2010…) based on Walter Wink's idea of "Jesus' Third Way," which explains how turning the other cheek is about leveling differences in power in society. This is the God I follow: the one who created this world and then dropped us, beings with free will, into the middle of it, to speak truth to power.

Life is messy, the Bible contradicts itself, and I will always try to love you as God loves you--by making queer-friendly posts on facebook, by attending rallies, and by being an ally to the queerfolk in my life the best I can. Will I always do it perfectly? No. Do I benefit from our heteronormative culture? Yes. But I am inspired by God to try to join you in making it better.
More...
Posted by Tschussle on October 13, 2010 at 3:47 AM · Report this
25
I gotta say, as a straight-identifying male who happens to love the transgender porn and has in the past hooked up with transgender male-to-female hookers, I'm a little insulted at Dans answer.

There's nothing in the mail to indicate the lady in question was the girlfriend he cheated on. I think we've all been in relationships that were just not terribly serious and hence not exclusive. Marriage isn't like that.

It seems like a hell of an assumption to say HE WILL DEFINITELY CHEAT ON YOU.
Posted by JohnF on October 13, 2010 at 3:51 AM · Report this
26
@15: Where are all these straight guys into chicks with dick porn? I've never heard of any of my friends say they dig it and they'll say a lot of things...I find your statement difficult to believe.

Good response to LR, though. It was bitchy, but the "good christian" writer deserved it. I agree; fuck their feelings when kids are dying because of asshole other kids.
Posted by aeros66 on October 13, 2010 at 4:14 AM · Report this
27
I think we are allowing our language to get sloppy in this debate.

I don't have a sexual preference I have a sexual orientation. Preference indicates a choice.

The only sexual preference I have is the couch to the bed.

I don't have a homosexual lifestyle. Lifestyle is how I expend my resources. Ergo, I have an urban lifestyle.

And when my partner and I are loud I have been know to finish with a rousing rendition of Trey Songz's "Neighbors Know My Name."

Posted by CrazyCanuck on October 13, 2010 at 4:35 AM · Report this
28
Rock on, Dan Savage. Rock on.
Posted by Yojimbo on October 13, 2010 at 4:39 AM · Report this
29
Regarding taste in porn and sexual leanings, eh, I don't necessarily think it's that cut-and-dried. I'm a dyke and pretty much the only porn I can bear watching is gay male porn. Can't stand the kind of women who perform in straight porn (that is, the women themselves may be fine, but their porn personas are not), and actual lesbian porn leaves me pretty damn indifferent 95% of the time.

That being said, if dude is trying to arrange random hook-ups with other dudes, he's internalising -something-.
Posted by Trix on October 13, 2010 at 5:34 AM · Report this
30
Anyone who says we are all "in desperate need of a savior" belongs in a fucking mental hospital.
Posted by wayne on October 13, 2010 at 5:41 AM · Report this
31
Blackrose, not only is that incredibly hypocritical (You're calling all Christians in the world bigoted based on the actions of some? My head kind of exploded at that one) but it alienates important allies. When we stand up for gay rights as non-Christians we are easily dismissed. When a person who actively, openly lives a Christ-based life speaks up for gay rights, it can have a strong impact on fellow Christians for whom the 'us/them' barrier suddenly becomes blurred.

@15 and 17 and the many good Christians everywhere - thank you for 'coming out' as gay supporters!
Posted by moofasa on October 13, 2010 at 5:52 AM · Report this
32
Blackrose, not only is that incredibly hypocritical (You're calling all Christians in the world bigoted based on the actions of some? My head kind of exploded at that one) but it alienates important allies. When we stand up for gay rights as non-Christians we are easily dismissed. When a person who actively, openly lives a Christ-based life speaks up for gay rights, it can have a strong impact on fellow Christians for whom the 'us/them' barrier suddenly becomes blurred.

@15 and 17 and the many good Christians everywhere - thank you for 'coming out' as gay supporters!
Posted by moofasa on October 13, 2010 at 5:55 AM · Report this
gttim 33
The answer to LR gets better every time I read it! We need to get that printed everywhere!
Posted by gttim on October 13, 2010 at 6:24 AM · Report this
34
I'm Quaker, and our Meeting has stopped legalizing marriages for anyone until we can legalize marriages for everyone.

Just as there is great variation among people, there is great variation among Christians and their beliefs. I believe in equal rights, job opportunities, protections, and chances to find and celebrate love for every human being.
Posted by MN on October 13, 2010 at 6:32 AM · Report this
35
I hadn't even finished with LR's letter before I thought, "Dan is going to take this person to the cleaners" and he didn't disappoint!!
Posted by ajb on October 13, 2010 at 6:44 AM · Report this
singing cynic 36
@15 - I think that the reason Dan doesn't acknowledge "good Christians" more is because "bad Christians" have completely co-opted American Christian identity. People who loudly profess their Christianity -- pundits, politicians, power-hungry psychos et al -- and use it to condemn, judge, and litigate against people unlike themselves, have made very sure that their brand of Christianity has become the prevalent one in our country.

So, sure, it would make you and other "good Christians" comfortable if Dan pointed out that you exist, but why should he? It's not his job. If you're upset by the perception of Christians in our culture, blame the "bad Christians" giving you a bad name, not the people they oppress, condemn, and drive to suicide. Organize other "good Christians" to give your faith a new, tolerant face in our media. If these "bad Christians" are really a minority, then why do they get to do all the talking? Why are they your voice in our culture?
Posted by singing cynic on October 13, 2010 at 6:54 AM · Report this
Jennifer Barge 37
I saw you early this morning on the Joy Behr show and I want to thank you for all your words. You are correct when you told L.R. to get over it. Their are kids killing themselves because these adults are walking around using the bible as a shield for the hate they speak, and this is picked up by their children and taken to school...I am preaching to the choir, I know. So thank you, Dan , for calling these folks out.
We all need education and tolerance in order for us all to get along... we are not going anywhere...jennifer barge
Posted by Jennifer Barge http://www.transhealthcoordinators.org on October 13, 2010 at 6:57 AM · Report this
38
bitchy girlfriend, i had one of what you have. he will lie and he will cheat. dan is spot on. it's not necessarily a "DTMFA" because he may not be a real MF (well, mine was), but he isn't acting in the interest of YOU and YOUR safety. let him go as soon as you can.
Posted by fooledmeonce on October 13, 2010 at 7:47 AM · Report this
39
Dan, you have the support of my family of not-xians here in the midwest, and so does the LBGT community. Thanks for making rational stands against ignorant xian bigotry.
Posted by Kylere on October 13, 2010 at 7:57 AM · Report this
40
I am disgusted with your response to L.R. You have lost a fan. You cant understand Christians (and likewise), so quit over analyzing every aspect or flaw with our society. Its boring and makes for another generic bullshit column. Thanks for the good ones in the past, I am out! ::curtain closes:
Posted by Jhorton on October 13, 2010 at 8:11 AM · Report this
41
I enjoyed your response to the first letter. I'm often turned off when you rail against this or that, but this particular argument is especially good. Thanks-
Posted by GGuy on October 13, 2010 at 8:25 AM · Report this
singing cynic 42
"boo hoo hoo, it's sooooooo hard to be a Christian! People say mean things about me!"

Shut the fuck up, asshole. Hope the door hits you (hard) on the way out.
Posted by singing cynic on October 13, 2010 at 8:29 AM · Report this
43
Will someone please introduce #40 to the fabulous world of apostrophes? Many thanks!
Posted by wayne on October 13, 2010 at 8:40 AM · Report this
44
Moofasa: I don't think I need to give a single fuck about "alienating valuable allies." How, exactly, are they valuable? They do wring their hands very nicely, and they do whine and complain in such lovely tones, but that seems to be about it. Until those "valuable allies" start being, I dunno, VALUABLE and screaming EN MASSE at the Christian Right and the bigots and--heaven forbid--do what we did back in the day and REFUSE TO BE PART OF IT (remember Martin Luther?) then they can sit down and shut up and accept that they are implicitly supporting the bigoted right by being Christians. The bigots claim to speak for every christian. You gotta fight that first. You don't get ~super special ally cookies!~ because you support gay marriage in your heart and vote liberal. Stop fucking asking for backpats for being a decent human being. Congrats, you've risen to a level of tolerance that doesn't actively encourage violence and suicide! What a winner you are.
Posted by hazakaza on October 13, 2010 at 8:40 AM · Report this
45
For an example of "dehumanizing bigotry," check out this story of an Eastern Washington man who's family threw him out for being gay.

http://wsu-online.blogspot.com/2010/10/s…

Posted by RichardM on October 13, 2010 at 8:43 AM · Report this
46
Dan, excellent response to L.R. Every week I appreciate your column more and more! Thank you!!
Posted by RachelSawbucks on October 13, 2010 at 8:52 AM · Report this
47
Yeah, I'm a Christian too. And I say, Dan, you knocked that one out of the park. You said EXACTLY what had to be said, every word of it, and I thank you for it from the bottom of my heart.
Posted by MrEasy on October 13, 2010 at 8:52 AM · Report this
48
Let's try a shorter link: http://bit.ly/b3P3e6
Posted by RichardM on October 13, 2010 at 8:53 AM · Report this
49
Excellent response to the follower of Christ, I'm just sick and tired of people who gleefully go about hurting other people through their actions and not taking any responsibility for it and further being completely disconnected from it. Sickening. Then to hide behind this hate under the guise of religion is simply vomit inducing.
Posted by poster on October 13, 2010 at 8:59 AM · Report this
50
If I believed in god, I'd say that you are doing "his" work....keep it up
Posted by Karma on October 13, 2010 at 9:03 AM · Report this
51
I appreciate your reply to LR, I am straight christian and married for 18 years. I have fortunately grown as I have aged. When i was young I too was confused by what I heard in church and from friends, fortunately my parents never said anything and allowed me grow up to form my own decision. Now my children are totally open to everyone. We have taught them that we are all equal and the only thing that matters is if you are a good person with a good heart. Black, white, gay, straight, rich or poor, that does not matter. Since I am not gay I can not feel your pain, but I try through talking to people to at least change others minds for the future, and I am proud my kids feel the same. I have over the years found it harder to go to church because I feel there are to many hypocrites, which I hate that.
Good Luck...Baker
Posted by Shaker on October 13, 2010 at 9:03 AM · Report this
52
Hooray, Dan! What an awesome response to L.R.!
Posted by RachelSawbucks on October 13, 2010 at 9:06 AM · Report this
MK1 53
The discussion of good v bad christians is a moot point unless the "good christians" are capable of making policy or changing policy within their churches. If you are, for instance, a Catholic and support gay rights it doesn't matter because the Vatican doesn't. Their influence will out-weigh your influence and their/your hateful perspective will be perpetuated. The whole personal nature of faith argument (ie individuals have their own beliefs/practices that may or may not coincide with official doctrine) is a convenient way to absolve yourself of responsibility for historical and contemporary atrocities without having to consider the worldwide outcomes of your faith and its racist, sexist, homophobic policies. It is nice that you have made different choices, but it really means fuck-all when your church is hateful. Stand up against them and fight instead of trying to convince non-believers that "all of you aren't that way."
Posted by MK1 on October 13, 2010 at 9:15 AM · Report this
54
My friend Nate Manske started a site you should all see. He created it to help LGBT youth feel happy with who they are. He gets emails from around the world confirming that it is saving lives.

http://www.imfromdriftwood.com

Click on the "story tour" button at top. He is currently touring the country, collecting video stories from LGBT people in all 50 states. This week he got one from the mayor of Portland!
Posted by natterator on October 13, 2010 at 9:20 AM · Report this
55
I'm a straight woman who joined the United Church of Christ specifically because it supports gay marriage. If L.R. doesn't believe in gay marriage then he or she can refrain from marrying a member of the same sex. So his or her version of Christianity doesn't approve of it? There are denominations that also don't approve of divorced people getting married, women speaking in church, wearing makeup, or dancing, but last time I checked those rules were just applied to members of those denominations, not forced on all of us through the laws of a country that allegedly does not establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof.
Posted by Kristen Allen on October 13, 2010 at 9:39 AM · Report this
56
So let's focus less on whose feelings are being hurt by whom (evil Christians! mean atheists! oh no!) and more on the 13-year-olds.

Dear 13-year-olds (14, 15, 16, etc):

It doesn't just get better in all the other stuff. It also gets better in religion. If you don't feel a need to have a god in your life, that's fine. But if you do, there are churches (and synagogues, etc.) out there for you. There are Christians like me who accept you the way you are, and support your own choice of who to love and who to marry (and defend it: the local no-on-8 movement was run out of local churches). There is a loving and supportive God for you. If that's something you need or something you're looking for, you'll find it.
Posted by NK on October 13, 2010 at 9:39 AM · Report this
57
So let's focus less on whose feelings are being hurt by whom (evil Christians! mean atheists! oh no!) and more on the 13-year-olds.

Dear 13-year-olds (14, 15, 16, etc):

It doesn't just get better in all the other stuff. It also gets better in religion. If you don't feel a need to have a god in your life, that's fine. But if you do, there are churches (and synagogues, etc.) out there for you. There are Christians like me who accept you the way you are, and support your own choice of who to love and who to marry (and defend it: the local no-on-8 movement was run out of the local UCC church). There is a loving and supportive God for you. If that's something you need or something you're looking for, you'll find it.
Posted by NK on October 13, 2010 at 9:41 AM · Report this
58
Exactly, MK1 #53.

The Vatican and the Pope doesn't give a flying fuck what lay Catholics think, as long as you keep dropping that twenty in the collection plate every Sunday.

And that goes for every other denomination. Clean up your own houses, Christians. Are you not your brothers' keepers?
Posted by Brownian on October 13, 2010 at 9:42 AM · Report this
59
way to go Dan, I'm sick of all the "Christians" out there saying they have no problem with gay people and then say that they should not be able to marry, serve in the military, adopt etc. 20 years from now or sooner, we will look back at this time in our society and be ashamed. Black people had seperate drinking fountains, schools, no rights just 50 yrs ago. Things progress, these "Christians" will be ashamed of their past. Or the rest of this country will progress and they will regress and dwindle.
Posted by Jake legend on October 13, 2010 at 9:42 AM · Report this
60
Fuck Kristaianity and fuck Kristians. I spell it with a K because these assholes have so little to do with Joshua hab Josephus (ie Jesus), anything he may have said or done or believed or fought for. Jesus would be so angry... And the Kristians would nail him to the cross again if they could.
Posted by litmus0001 on October 13, 2010 at 9:51 AM · Report this
shahnahnah 61
The opposite of judgmental Christian is not judgmental non-Christian. Judgmental as I am using it right now means placing judgments on an entire group based on the actions of some. Many, many people who love to point out how judgmental Christians are display eggregious judgmental behaviors themselves. How 'bout we say we disagree with the judgmental actions of people who are judgmental rather than lobbing judgmental attitudes at the entire group we perceive as being judgmental? Just a thought. This argument often gets derailed into, "But I'm not like that," and, "They are all like that!" which, in my mind, is missing the freaking point.

As for the argument made in 53, I believe that standing up for what you believe in in the face of opposition is important. However, I think someone can still consider oneself a member of a powerful group with whom one doesn't 100% agree. I know a lot of Dems who are seriously displeased with our Dem President, but I don't see any of them jumping ship and joining the Repubs. In fact, I would argue that when people form groups, no one in those groups ever 100% agrees with the tennets of those groups. People like to join groups of all kinds, though, because we're a highly social people who've always operated on the supposition that we're better together. There may very well be plenty of stand-up Catholics who are very open about their open-minded views within their community, but I doubt you would be aware of that phenomenon as your response is awfully generalized. I agree with you that the argument is a moot point, but that's because I believe that to argue my "goodness" is worthless. I live the way I live, and you are free to make any judgment on how I live as you see fit--but I would hope that I live in a way that is an inspiration for all people to become more open-minded, Christian or no.
More...
Posted by shahnahnah on October 13, 2010 at 10:00 AM · Report this
62
Thanks Dan. Amazing and educational. My HERO.
Posted by Jenn on October 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM · Report this
63
I have no problem with gays being gays, just like I have no problem with all people just being themselves. I was saddened to hear about the suicides, but, umm, people kill themselves all the time, for all sorts of reasons. I kind of feel like there is a possibility for the gay pride movement to move towards (like most movements always do), the anti-defamation movement. I.E., whenver a Jew is accused of something, guilty or not, it becomes an anger filled "don't judge me because of my identity you piece of shit" rant, kind of like Dan's first response.
Posted by egordon on October 13, 2010 at 10:17 AM · Report this
64
@8 - Two women can have sex in a variety of ways, with plenty that would allow for a little pillow smothering.
Posted by 8 on October 13, 2010 at 10:37 AM · Report this
65
"I read the first letter earlier this week because it was already being passed around by friends of mine who don't even read Savage Love".

Actually Miss Ohio, everyone in the world reads Savage Love (and I sure hope no one missed this week's colunmn).
Posted by Anthony62 on October 13, 2010 at 10:45 AM · Report this
66
@26, I know several "straight" guys into trannies. If you don't, then go ask a transsexual about her experiences. As kinks go, it's not rare.

@25, were you absent for the monogamy/non-monogamy Slog wars of a few months ago? Dan thinks that over the course of a long marriage, most men will stray a few times. He wants to provide tools to those men and their spouses, so that marriages don't have to end just because of a little infidelity. Does it make you feel better to know that Dan doesn't think guys who like trannies are more likely than other guys to cheat? He thinks that all men are about equally likely to cheat on their spouses.

(The fact that you haven't yet, or won't ever, doesn't mean that Dan is wrong about most men.)

(Full disclosure: my husband did. And thank god for Dan, who helped me see that one infidelity in 14 years was a small mistake, not a reason to end our good marriage.)
Posted by EricaP on October 13, 2010 at 10:50 AM · Report this
67
Dan really grandstands here, doesn't he? What a buffoon. In point of fact, the dialectic of history has operated continuously upon the Christian faith, in a piecemeal fashion, for centuries, all over the world, changing dogma. Per exemplum: Divorce got you excommunicated and jailed in the 15th c., until enough Xtians said enough, and it began to reform (Ireland's Catholics winning the prize for foot-dragging into the 1990's...), first with Prots, then Papists. Ditto marrying outside your faith--big no-no until 20th c.; and so on. So it's safe to assume that Xtian dogma will eventually shift on the topic of same-sexers, ever so slowly, as the dialectic moves it all forward. So why does Dan go out of his way to offend someone, professing to be Xtian and compassionate, impugning both the correspondent's intent and effect? Seems like the gay equivalent of sweeps week on tv--all about the ratings.
Posted by nicodemus on October 13, 2010 at 11:13 AM · Report this
68
@singingcynic (#36) YES. That's exactly right. It's amusing and predictable that individuals always want to have their specialness noticed and pointed to by the "everyone says" crew. You nail it, though. Just as many people around the world are PLEADING across the spectrum of believers/followers of Islam...if the minions of evil are not to dominate the media feed/call to fervor action/attitudes that get lots of humans killed and so many more immersed in broken lives of pain and suffering here and now --- it remains the RESPONSIBILITY of self-fashioned "good" believers to carve out the space and promote an over-riding message of tolerance and sanity. By definition, society's outsiders and outliers do NOT have power to promote the niche approach of sane & loving into dominant message. Why is this so hard to notice or remember? Sure there are "good" religious adherents in every creed. But using the rigid parameters of ritual to debase those who are NOT of one's particular religious flavor is the norm everywhere. Adhering to the letter, shall we say, as opposed to the SPIRIT of the creed. And that is uncharitable and leads to the suffering of so many.
Posted by nutri-girl on October 13, 2010 at 11:16 AM · Report this
69
@singingcynic (#36) YES. That's exactly right. It's amusing and predictable that individuals always want to have their specialness noticed and pointed to by the "everyone says" crew. You nail it, though. Just as many people around the world are PLEADING across the spectrum of believers/followers of Islam...if the minions of evil are not to dominate the media feed/call to fervor action/attitudes that get lots of humans killed and so many more immersed in broken lives of pain and suffering here and now --- it remains the RESPONSIBILITY of self-fashioned "good" believers to carve out the space and promote an over-riding message of tolerance and sanity. By definition, society's outsiders and outliers do NOT have power to promote the niche approach of sane & loving into the dominant message. Why is this so hard to notice or remember? Sure there are "good" religious adherents in every creed. But using the rigid parameters of ritual to debase those who are NOT of one's particular religious flavor is the norm everywhere. Adhering to the letter, shall we say, as opposed to the SPIRIT of the creed. And that is uncharitable and leads to the suffering of so many.
Posted by nutri-girl on October 13, 2010 at 11:19 AM · Report this
Knat 70
Why is this dated Oct 14, 2010? That's tomorrow.
Posted by Knat on October 13, 2010 at 11:26 AM · Report this
Rach3l 71
Awesome response to the first question. I hope you do feel guilty, because if you believe gays are IN ANY WAY INFERIOR to straight people, the blood of those boys is on your hands. Now it's on your conscience, too.

Not every religious person is also intolerant. If you're religious and pro-gay, then I'm happy for you and wish there were more like you. However, intolerant people can and should die in a fire.
Posted by Rach3l on October 13, 2010 at 11:48 AM · Report this
72
For LR and any other folks who would like to explore "Christian" America's opinion on this issue, go no further than Topix. Topix, among other services, provides an anonymous forum for citizens of small to large communities to opine on a variety of issues. For many communities, the content is generally vile, bigoted, hate-filled and slanderous. BUT it certainly gives insight to people's raw, unvarnished opinions on many subjects- from race to sexual orientation.

Here are some examples of Topix discussion threads devoted to gay-bashing from my former hometown in TN. I left this place years ago, and if anything, it has become more bigoted and small-minded:

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/greenevi…

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/greenevi…

***********
Some excerpts:

"God does not love homosexuals. Without a quick Bible reference, I recall homosexuality as the only sin God used the word 'abomination'. He killed hundreds of thousands of homosexuals at a time."

"I think that all of the gay people in the world just need to die...... YOU ARE NOT WANTED, SO CRAWL IN A HOLE WITH YOUR BUTT-BUDDY AND DIE!!"

"There are none. Here in Greeneville, we feed all the gays and lesbians to the wolves."

"We would've beat the shit out of this fairy when I was in school." (In reference to a student from a nearby town running for homecoming queen)
**********

You see, LR, being from this town, I guarantee that each one of the posters, if asked, would claim Christianity as their faith. And yes, some of these posters might even treat a gay, lesbian, or transgendered person politely in person. But, their hearts are corroded with hate. And what of their children?

You don't actively encourage your kids to bully others? Whooptie-doo. I doubt the parents of the tormentors of these recent suicide victims encouraged their children to be abusers either. But they were complicit. Yes they were. Look at the comments above. How are the children of these "God-fearing" people going to treat a gay peer?

That you were offended by Mr. Savage's suggestion that "Christian" America needs to own and address their role in the ongoing and pervasive abuse of gay children, is incredible.

More...
Posted by BDNF on October 13, 2010 at 12:01 PM · Report this
73
@24, 31: Props to you, 24, for being a historian. Why should Christians be judged for what others do and say? Because they're following and giving their life to a movement started and inspired by other people. Because calling yourself a Christian while going against the words of the founding Christians is incredibly disingenuous. Because it's the "good Christians" who make Christianity respectful in today's society. Their existence allows the Christians who actually take the insane, hateful teachings honestly and literally to have power.

Say what you will about hermeneutics and translations, but your holy book is clear what it thinks about human nature (evil, doomed to hell without a savior), sex (bad outside of straight marriage), the meaning of life (to serve the will of a god who brags about committing atrocities), and diversity (only one way to be saved).

If you really want to believe in a god of love, and freedom, and beauty, and human rights, and speaking truth to power... based on what the Bible says, Jesus/Yahweh seems like an odd choice. Why him? Why not choose a different one? I suspect it was because you were raised with Christian traditions, or had powerful experiences in the context of those traditions, which is understandable. I just wish people would be honest and separate out their spiritual values from a religious tradition full of hate and atrocity. You really can have the good stuff without the Jesus/Bible stuff.
Posted by BlackRose on October 13, 2010 at 12:02 PM · Report this
74
@23: I'm not a believer in any faith, but I hate to hear statements like yours. It's ridiculous to accuse Dan of anti-Christian bigotry, but you've demonstrated just what such bigotry would look like: Tarring all Christians with guilt by association because of the actions and beliefs of some. Insisting that even if someone doesn't do, say or think anything bigoted, they're still somehow mysteriously a bigot because others who share a category with them are.

I don't want to dispute that the Bible is a "bigoted book," but it's my understand that many thoughtful Christians know the Bible was written by humans at a particular time in history, and that it's an imperfect text. They see it as their responsibility to use their God-given intelligence and judgment to figure out which ideas in the Bible to take to heart, and which to reject. If a religious believer says that hate, bigotry and sex-negativity aren't part of their faith, I see no reason to ignore that in favor of my own preconceptions.

To those who are saying Christians should "clean up their own houses," your points are well taken. But some commenters here are pointing out that their church, and not just themselves personally, is pro-gay rights. And what about a denomination like the Episcopalians, which allows gay priests and bishops? Just another reason not to insist that all Xtians are on the wrong side.
Posted by Gudrun Brangwen on October 13, 2010 at 12:06 PM · Report this
75
"Gay men just aren't into chicks-with-dicks porn; that's a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers"

Wow, that's a big stereotype.

And guess what? Total bullshit. I'm a gay man who's never had sex or interest in sex with a woman, and I like watching chicks-with-dicks porn. Hell, I like *any* kind of porn.

Porn is good, and Dan Savage making sweeping generalizations is bad.
Posted by Steve in Toledo on October 13, 2010 at 12:38 PM · Report this
76
As for the first letter addressed in today’s column:
Unfortunately Christians aren’t the only ones fomenting hate, fear, and bigotry against homosexuals in this country.
Orthodox Jews were expecting NY GOP governor hopeful Carl Paladino to read some anti-homosexual remarks that even he felt went too far, and he already expressed some other outrageous homophobic remarks of his own!
And as for Muslims, I still have to hear a clear acceptance of homosexuality in this country from community leaders. And I mean this country only as I understand that if they did so in the Middle East it could shorten their lives substantially.
It’s funny, sad actually, that conservative Christian politicians in this election season who bash Islam for short political gains aren’t that much better. Right Sarah?

Posted by fif on October 13, 2010 at 12:41 PM · Report this
77
@74: It's fair enough to say that not everyone who calls himself a Christian is bigoted in thought, word, or action. But they are supporting bigoted thoughts and harmful organizations, and they are being dishonest in their history and interpretation of their religion.

If I called myself a Phelpsian and went around saying I loved Fred Phelps, but that I thought most of what he said was misinterpreted and it was really all about love and I'm still a big supporter of gay marriage and gay rights... can you see that that would be a little odd and harmful? Even if I wasn't a bigot myself? Jesus and St. Paul wrote down their thoughts and beliefs. They thought people deserved to be punished eternally for sex outside of straight marriage. Or for even thinking about sex outside of straight marriage.

You said: "If a religious believer says that hate, bigotry and sex-negativity aren't part of their faith, I see no reason to ignore that in favor of my own preconceptions."

Fair enough, but then I see no reason for such believers to call themselves Christians.
Posted by BlackRose on October 13, 2010 at 12:47 PM · Report this
78
Well, actually Jesus and St. Paul may not have literally written them down, and they may not even have existed, but that's not really the point...
Posted by BlackRose on October 13, 2010 at 12:49 PM · Report this
79
@26: I dunno. Maybe they don't want to joke about something they genuinely like, because it might bite them in the ass?

For some reason people like to think so, but our friends aren't statistically reliable focus groups. They know you and you know them, so there's always some kind of agenda when it comes to telling or omitting certain things.

Even aside from all that, saying "Well, Mike has never said he liked trannies" is quite different from "Mike said he doesn't like trannies." I could deduce all kinds of stuff about you based on things you haven't said.

You STILL can be right and not know any guys who are into trannies, but it's possible that people who like and dislike similar things *tend to hang out together.* Yeah? I'm sure there are people out there whose every friend loves the fuck out of trannies.
Posted by Gloria on October 13, 2010 at 12:51 PM · Report this
80
Anger is a good and righteous thing, if used properly. It empowers suppressed people to seize what belongs to them, it sparks discussions, and it is a sign that there is something wrong with 'the system'. It is not a weapon to be pointed at anyone who represents something you don't like.

I'm disappointed in your response to the christian. This is a person who was trying to reach out and show humanity despite political disagreements. You could have made a friend, potentially an ally, but you couldn't see past your own prejudices (Regardless of any that were shown to you-- be the bigger man). You've succeeded either in fully alienating this person, or beating her into submission. How is that any better than the way bigoted assholes have treated you?

The problem, I think, is that you (along with many, many others) have confused personal religion with the force that is nominally religion in politics. The force that assholes use for cover whenever they are too cowardly to stand up for what they believe in alone, and too stupid to come up with a better reason than "the bible says it". A force that should have died out long ago, but that continues because it is a political, financial, and motivational power. And thank god they aren't all as organized as the catholics!

But a person of faith is not to be blamed for the horrors of his given religion. Most every powerful institution has done horrible things, but we all belong to several of them. Each person needs to be aware of the issues, and do what they can to to improve the world as they see it. lots of possible rants here, but that's the gist.

Make friends-- when people show you their fuzzy underbelly of good intent, scratch it, don't stab them.
Posted by leep on October 13, 2010 at 1:10 PM · Report this
81
I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
No, wait. I'm not.


This is the second time I have seen Dan piss all over an entire group of people.

I wonder if he has the belief that because people pissed all over him because he is gay, he doesn't have to stop to see the humanity in other people when the tables are turned.

Grow Dan, Grow.

Posted by SavageFan50 on October 13, 2010 at 1:29 PM · Report this
82
@ 77 Your idea of what the NT is about is pretty shaky. Jesus said nothing about Homosexuality, ever, not one bloody thing, and Paul (who never actually met Jesus during his life) said not to be "effeminate" which at the time pretty much meant wimpy, and don't be arestenokai, and no one can figure out what the heck that means but there were a bunch of words then for gay effeminate wasn't one of them and neither was arestenokai. Not to mention Jesus didn't write a thing down that we know of, the gospels are other people's recollection of the story of his life, and Paul's letters were to other members of the early church. I've read the book, all the way through, and if it said what you think it says I would have serious issues, but it doesn't.

There are Christian groups that speak out against the oppression of LGBT folks, the Episcopal church being a notable example of that where the Bishop of Los Angeles actively worked against Prop 8, and we marry and ordain LGBT folks. I realize that not a whole lot of pro-LGBT Christian stuff makes it to the media, but it's not because it doesn't happen, it's because it doesn't make for a very sexy news story.
Posted by anne77 on October 13, 2010 at 1:34 PM · Report this
83
Dan 1
LR 0
Posted by sbollinger1986 on October 13, 2010 at 1:37 PM · Report this
84
Dan 1
LR 0
Posted by sbollinger1986 on October 13, 2010 at 1:39 PM · Report this
85
The member of parliament for my district is Bill Siksay. He is married to Rev. Brian Burke of the United Church of Canada, and is apparently quite active in his church. He is currently in the process of pushing a bill through the Canadian legislature which will protect gender identity and gender expression under our Charter of Rights.

There are Christians who do more than wring their hands and say how sorry they are.
Posted by eli77 on October 13, 2010 at 1:41 PM · Report this
86
The member of parliament for my district is Bill Siksay. He is married to Rev. Brian Burke of the United Church of Canada, and is apparently quite active in his church. He is currently in the process of pushing a bill through the Canadian legislature which will protect gender identity and gender expression under our Charter of Rights.

There are Christians who do more than wring their hands and say how sorry they are.
Posted by eli77 on October 13, 2010 at 1:43 PM · Report this
Anthropomorhpise Me 87
Mark 7:6
"He answered them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me."

Matthew 23:14
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."
Posted by Anthropomorhpise Me on October 13, 2010 at 2:15 PM · Report this
88
As someone who loves Allah and does not support terrorism I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about those killed after being taken hostage by people who should have known better. I think you need to be aware of your own prejudices and how they might play into your thinking. At best I think your comments were hypocritical.

If your message is that we should not judge people based on their religious preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to those people and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your faith. Please be aware that your words are powerful and people are listening to you.

To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Allah is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of submission. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people. I have never in my life know someone who loved Allah who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death "so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda."

Please consider your viewpoint and please be more careful with your words in the future.
Posted by sdx on October 13, 2010 at 2:17 PM · Report this
89
I love you Dan. Your response to LR is spot-on. Thank you for starting It Gets better. I didn't commit suicide as ateenager (obviously), butI was pretty damn miserable and thought about it ALL THE TIME. If there had been something like this back then, it might not have been so bad. Of course, that was before Al Gore invented the Internet. :)
Peace and Love to you and your family.
Posted by labrysswinger on October 13, 2010 at 2:18 PM · Report this
90
I've said it before and I'll say it again... Jesus would NEVER treat gays the way these so-called Christians do.

Then again, he wouldn't spend other people's money on gold nugget jewelery, expensive make-up and bad toupees either.
Posted by ggg on October 13, 2010 at 2:19 PM · Report this
91
I am a 40ish lesbian out mom, Sunday School teacher and a screamer. Your It Gets Better videos saved my best friend's kid this week.
His locker mate found a suicide note, due to
all the bullying he has experienced in 6th grade.
The kid reported it to the school, the school contacted the parents and he is in counseling.
I wish I could say an assembly was called for the whole school. It was not, they were in the middle of a health unit on bullying, this was deemed good enough....BF's kid saw the videos and they helped him a lot. I am taking him to my church to meet more adult, successful gay men,
because our church is where I know of a dozen with great husbands, jobs and kids.

You say whatever you need to about Christians and I will disagree, people choose to mis-use the bible like they use guns, knives, marriage and sex as tools to hurt folks; don't blame the gun, blame the shooter.

But you saved a precious boy and so you get a lot of slack from me.

Trying to stifle a scream can be just as sexy as being loud. I am just sayin'.

It Gets Better is a game-changer, I am so grateful for you and your husband's work there.
Posted by lesbianmomofgirlsandboys on October 13, 2010 at 2:25 PM · Report this
92
As for the bible, for those who didn’t read the book nor watched the movie:

The reason homosexuality is mentioned in the Old Testament is most likely because apparently it always existed and, one can assume, always will. And despite some of the rules/aspirations mentioned in it, some characters with clear homosexual tendencies come across in a positive way. The most famous one is probably King David and his well-known “boyfriend” Jonathan.

The other one is Joseph, Jacob’s son, who was favored by the father but also had a tendency to wear fancy striped gowns and do other stuff that embarrassed his older brothers. They ended up selling him to nomads, those guys aren’t particularly picky, and they took him to Egypt. Being the only Jew in Egypt at the time he had to take on himself few traditional roles, thus becoming Pharaoh’s both shrink and economic adviser. Thanks to his advice Egypt was still prosperous when famine hit the region. So when the rest of his family arrived there, seeking relief from hunger, he was still kind enough to forgive and accept them.

Other than that the Old Testament is full of shenanigans, temptation stories, and horrendous murders. One shouldn’t single out “anti-homosexuality” message in it in order to foment fear and hatred.

Sorry, not that familiar with the New Testament, but John Waters was quoted few years ago saying the entire Christian religion is based on a homosexual S&M fantasy: a nude man attached to a cross.
Posted by fif on October 13, 2010 at 2:30 PM · Report this
93
@82: Could you explain to me what the Greek word 'porneia' (usually translated as "fornication") refers to throughout the New Testament? Also, though he may not have spoken against gay sex specifically, isn't Jesus quoted specifically as telling a prostitute to "sin no more"?
Posted by BlackRose on October 13, 2010 at 2:31 PM · Report this
94
I'm not Mr. Savage's biggest fan, but the letter to that self important hypocrite was right on the money. Can't believe that love the sinner hate the sin shit has currency still.
Posted by donald on October 13, 2010 at 2:42 PM · Report this
95
anne77 - totally agree with what you are saying, and I support your "worldview" including your support of LGBT rights. I don't agree however, that the bible is neutral (or positive) on the subject of homosexuality. Even if we allow for a hermeneutic that allows us to completely ignore the old testament and the icky passages in the law, there are several troublesome passages in the New Testament, especially Romans 1:26, 27. I agree that some of the other passages could mean effeminate or some other thing. But Romans 1 cant be gotten around.

I have been an evangelical my whole life with hundreds of evangelical friends and family, but more recently, many gay and lesbian friends. For me, I felt that I could not embrace the teaching of the bible and my LGBT friends, so I have rejected the bible and evangelicalism. I posted this on a long thread on Facebook recently and have been catching hell all over the place. We all have to do this differently, and for many, finding (workarounds) in the bible is adequate, but for me I decided that the clear teachings of the bible just didn't square with reality as it is, so I dumped any kind of slavish devotion to the bible.

It's a journey, I came to a fork and took the path less traveled, and I'm OK with that.
Posted by formerevangelical on October 13, 2010 at 2:44 PM · Report this
96
Sorry to break it to you, all you nice gay-friendly christians out there, but "love the christian, not christianity" doesn't make any more sense than "love the sinner, not the sin".

I don't care what your personal beliefs are, but if you participate in organized christian activities, you're a part of the problem.
Posted by Ricardo on October 13, 2010 at 3:00 PM · Report this
97
As a Christian and a student of religious studies, I'd like to point out that the Bible actually says very little about homosexuality, and the VERY few verses that do are taken out of context completely. Also, it's incredibly difficult to find an example of "Christian family values" in the Bible. So, fundies, stop talking about things you don't understand. It's making the rest of us look bad. As an educated and faithful human being, I support gay marriage and don't think homosexuality is a sin at all. I wish more people agreed with me.
Posted by patrow on October 13, 2010 at 3:02 PM · Report this
98
(Continuing 96) - Of course, that also goes for all other members of any other homophobic religion.
Posted by Ricardo on October 13, 2010 at 3:33 PM · Report this
99
Way to go Dan. I don't believe in any church but I do believe that my actions for my family and community are appreciated by those who see the true love in my heart and know that I will always try to accept my mistakes/errors and do better the next time. With that being said, there are groups (wont call them churches) out there who beleive in a deity that loves and accepts all no matter who they are. Some of those groups call them selfs Christians but don't hold to every word of the bible being true. Please keep that in mind when you feel the need to point an accusing finger at "Christians" in general because a number of them have opened their mouths and spewed complete stupidity and shit while saying that they are speaking for God/Jesus.
Posted by garbagelady on October 13, 2010 at 3:43 PM · Report this
100
Former evangelical. Romans 1 is Paul's interpretation of the OT, not Christ's, and not being a literalist I am perfectly happy to concede that Paul clung rather too tightly to rules that didn't apply any more, and maybe never did.

As to the "if you are a Christian you are part of the problem" folks. My purpose in replying to this article was not to convert anyone, and I don't really need your permission to lead my life as I see fit anymore than you need mine or anyone else's. My point is that those Christians who use their supposed faith to justify bigotry, and bullying are not only assholes they are shitty theologians who have completely missed the point. And really, that message is more for them than the LGBT community. I get that there is good reason for most of the anger directed at mainstream Christianity. All I can say is that they are wrong and you are absolutely right, and I am in fact incredibly sorry for the evil that these people
Commit against their fellow citizens.

If you still want to believe that progressive Christans are part of the problem, I doubt I can dissuade you, but that's a shame, but I am not going to apologize for being who I am.
Posted by anne77 on October 13, 2010 at 3:58 PM · Report this
101
Well said, Dan! And to LR: When you love people in spite of their "sin", it's second-rate love if it can be called "love" at all. It's forced tolerance, at best. When you really believe that we're all equally deserving of dignity in our less than perfect state ("sinful", in your parlance)and that another's sin is truly no worse than your own... Well, if those were your true beliefs, then you'd be worried about having the "other" finding you lovable, or at least worthy of true tolerance, complete with-- gasp!-- full civil rights. They day you start talking about whether you're worthy to be around gays, then you'll be in a position to talk about Christianity.
Posted by Audrey Rasmusson on October 13, 2010 at 4:29 PM · Report this
102
The thing is, good Christians keep their mouths shut because they feel that religion is *personal* rather than public. So no, you're not going to hear from them. Or rather, you're going to hear from them, know them, see what sorts of stuff they're doing, but not identify them *as* Christians.

And at the end of the day...who these people really are are just good people who choose to subscribe to the parts of Christianity that they feel help them in being good people. But it is a natural human impulse to get offended when someone paints your group with a large brush that doesn't apply to you. Nothing new to see here, really.
Posted by laurelgardner http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5877570 on October 13, 2010 at 4:32 PM · Report this
103
Well said, Dan! And to LR: When you love people in spite of their "sin", it's second-rate love if it can be called "love" at all. It's forced tolerance, at best. When you really believe that we're all equally deserving of dignity in our less than perfect state ("sinful", in your parlance)and that another's sin is truly no worse than your own... Well, if those were your true beliefs, then you'd be worried about having the "other" finding you lovable, or at least worthy of true tolerance, complete with-- gasp!-- full civil rights. They day you start talking about whether you're worthy to be around gays, then you'll be in a position to talk about Christianity. If you are interested in seeing how one Christian owned his homophobia because he understood that it was a flaw in his Christianity, read the chapter called "The Leper" in "Radical Compassion: Finding Christ In The Heart Of The Poor" by Gary Smith, SJ. Yes, that stands for Society of Jesus. In other words, one Christian who wasn't afraid to search his soul on this issue was a Jesuit priest. And a heterosexual, to boot.

Audrey Rasmusson
Pittsburgh, PA
Posted by Audrey Rasmusson on October 13, 2010 at 4:34 PM · Report this
104
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/gay-se…

It's sad shit when a dating site feels the need to prove that gay people aren't a threat because of people like LR frantically shouting from the rooftops about those evil gays.
Posted by astrobuckeye on October 13, 2010 at 4:46 PM · Report this
105
Re Comment 102: I agree. Progressive Christians are not part of the problem and it isn't right to lump them in with homo-hostile Christians. In fact, people who are willing to state that full civil rights and social acceptance for gays is part of Christianity are part of the solution. They are taking the "justified by Christianity" justification for homophobia out from under the -- ahem -- "Christians with a K" types.

Audrey Rasmusson
Pittsburgh, PA
Posted by Audrey Rasmusson on October 13, 2010 at 4:53 PM · Report this
106
I'm just a 46-year-old father of two in the Midwest whose been married 22 years. I've been reading Dan for a few years because it's simply the best written advice column in the world, and Dan's response to LR is all the proof I need to make that argument.

I go to church on Sundays. It's important to me and I don't feel the need to explain that here. I believe in God because I believe in love, compassion and justice -- ideals that have certainly evolved, but did not just pop into existence. I believe people who love one another must be allowed to love one another, because it is the greatest gift we have been given and can give -- to our spouses, to our children and to the world.

I know "the church" is part of the problem, but please do not lump me in with LR and friends because we share space from time to time. There are many like me -- a little timid, kind of confused, but inspired by Dan, It Gets Better and very much wanting to do what's right.

Help us to help make a difference. Or don't. I will find my own way to change things. But please don't piss all over us because we call ourselves "christians." Nobody has it all figured out, whatever labels they wear or pin on others (those who think they do -- now there is the problem). Besides (do I really need to point this out?) it's got to be about more than labels.
Posted by Thomas Em on October 13, 2010 at 5:36 PM · Report this
107
Yeah Dan!!!!! Great response to letter number 1, i even thought you're writing was better than usual ;)
Posted by supporter on October 13, 2010 at 5:45 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 108
Re: LR-- while I agree that anyone opposed to marriage equality necessarily sees LGBT people as "less than," I don't agree that that viewpoint is "partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children."

Like me and many others, Dan makes a lot of anti-fat comments. Are we partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable overweight children, who are also regularly bullied and who also attempt suicide at higher rates?

I'm not equating obesity-- which is demonstrably harmful-- with homosexuality-- which is not. My point is that a negative viewpoint toward members of a particular group (whether justified or not) does not necessarily make one culpable for bullying and physical violence by others toward members of the same group.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 13, 2010 at 6:01 PM · Report this
lewlew 109
Dan expresses it so well. Most Xians don't deserve any courtesy at all, given their history throughout the world and history and the current trend of hatred and ugliness. If only they would actually follow their religion instead of perverting it to suit their bigotry. Go read John Boswell's books, and don't expect me to do your research for you. And shut up. And fuck you. No, seriously, fuck you. And, Dan, thank you... again.
Posted by lewlew on October 13, 2010 at 6:27 PM · Report this
110
Remember, the christian church would not even allow marriages between men and women till the late 1600's. Women were deemed too "unclean", and the church wanted all of the the mans resources willed to the church when they died. Part of the reason for the witchunts, and desecrations of the springs and other pagan shrines was to stop the handfastings.
It is still that way, the christian church would have dissolved in this country if not for the free labor of women, lavished upon the same people that they debase, de-classe, and denigrate.

No matter the nice people that say they belong to a church, if you are part of the gang, you are a gang-banger.

Deal with it, or allow women to be ordained.
Posted by Morganism on October 13, 2010 at 6:36 PM · Report this
111
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax96cghOn…

this is really incredible. I love the support he received from his fellow Texan council members. So proud.
Posted by emconn89 on October 13, 2010 at 7:18 PM · Report this
112
Dan has been very outspoken in his belief that not all Christians are bad. In a recent column, he mentioned the people out there who have religious objections to homosexuality, but nonetheless support the legalization of same-sex marriage. He said that he'll gladly mow their lawns.

If he'll say that about people who support equal rights for gays, while maintaining anti-gay religious beliefs, then I think it's VERY safe to say that he doesn't have a problem with people whose religious beliefs ARE gay-friendly. And who belong to gay-friendly churches, and recognize the separation of church and state.

Dan, I wish you'd mentioned that when you responded to LR. A huge part of LR's letter consisted of complaints that you were attacking all Christians. While you correctly pointed out that Christians aren't the victim in the anti-gay bullying debate, you also should have pointed out that you're not criticizing all Christians - you're just criticizing the bigoted ones.
Posted by Fidelio on October 13, 2010 at 7:24 PM · Report this
113
I'm always saddened and disgusted by 'Christians' who chose to focus nearly exclusively on the Old Testament.

This is what Jesus said in the New, and although I'm a recovering Catholic humanist now myself, I'll have to go with Vonnegut on this one:

"For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes. But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course that’s Moses, not Jesus. I haven’t heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere.
"Blessed are the merciful" in a courtroom? "Blessed are the peacemakers" in the Pentagon? Give me a break!"

And because it deserves to be emphasized:

and he began to teach them saying:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.


Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Posted by Jen 1 on October 13, 2010 at 8:12 PM · Report this
114
You know not all Christians are mocking/hurting/tormenting gays, right? Some ARE gay. I have even seen GAY Christian pastors!

You missed the point of the Christian's letter: you are being a bigot by lumping the assholes in with the good guys. Be against bigots, don't be one.

I also agree with #112
Posted by Not Biggot? on October 13, 2010 at 8:46 PM · Report this
115
Oops...lumping porn genres to stereotypes seems anti-Savage. Trust me gays (as a group) watch porn. ALL porn. Tranny, straight, gay, and oh lord EVERYTHING else.
Posted by WordWise on October 13, 2010 at 9:03 PM · Report this
Canuck 116
@27 What you wrote was really twisted, and difficult for me to sympathize with.

.......how could you possibly prefer the couch to the bed??

(Welcome to Slog, fellow TimBits eater!)
Posted by Canuck on October 13, 2010 at 9:24 PM · Report this
117
http://fckh8.com/
Posted by art freak on October 13, 2010 at 9:32 PM · Report this
118
I just you to bits, sir. Thanks for everything you do.
Posted by GreatfulBi on October 13, 2010 at 10:31 PM · Report this
119
I'm so very sorry Christians, but I have to agree with the haters. The Christian religion is really no different than, say, a bike gang. The only difference is that it's members are far too vast in number to really control. To say you are apart of a group but disagree with what it believes in would usually mean getting kicked out, or fired upon. But in religion there's no limiting free thinking because you can't dissuade what someone truly believes. I have Christian friends who are only really Christian because it was how they were raised, and they know nothing else. Lets go back to my bike gang metaphor. If a person gets beaten up by a gang of people, or that gang continually harasses the town that person lives in, then the entire gang is going to be shunned upon. Just because the "good bike gang member" doesn't feel the same way, it doesn't mean they are any less to blame. They are the reason the gang exists: by swearing their allegiance to sed gang.

Ok, so maybe you have good values, and you truly don't think that way. At what point am I required to care? As long as you call yourself a Christian, you will be associated with them. Simple. You cannot be a Christian and demand individualism. HAHA! Thats funny!

IMHNSHO (In my honestly not so humble opinion), in the end, religion and normalization have been and will continue to be the fire that fuels problems in the world. I am not saying, however, it's what starts it.

Why does religion have to exist anyways? Religion, ultimately, is the deciding factor to what's right and wrong. The problem is that it isn't always right, but far too relied upon. But it's impossible to think of religion as not existing. Humans don't think that way.

Cruel irony. I am Homosexual and Atheist too...just throwing that out there.
More...
Posted by Yoshi on October 13, 2010 at 11:11 PM · Report this
120
I love your response.
Posted by Tigs on October 13, 2010 at 11:33 PM · Report this
121
@108 I Hate Screennames:

Yes, your anti-fat comments contribute to an anti-fat culture. They help to cement the idea that it is natural and right to view fat individuals as ugly and disgusting. Even Dan said in Skipping to Gomorrah that views on physical attractiveness are social and cultural.

Your "soft" bigotry against fat people, your patronizing attitude ("it's demonstrably unhealthy") which is supposed to make your bigotry okay because you just care about people making unhealthy choices, these are exactly what help create a fat-hating, fat-phobic spectrum, with horrible bullies at one end, and you somewhere in the middle, and people who think "fatties" are "gross" privately but are too "polite" to voice it in public at the other end.

This is what Dan is talking about with gay people, too. Your "soft" bigotry naturalizes all bigotry, and kids aren't the most subtle or nuanced creatures, so what they're likely to hear in your message, and in quasi-tolerant Christians' messages about gay people, is that fatties and gays are classifiably different types of people and it's not okay to be one of them.

Now the problem is that if sexuality and homosociality exists on natural spectrum, as well as body type, and kids start to worry that they're one of the incorrect and unacceptable "them," they are going to lash out at a more obvious "them" as a means to feel more like the acceptable, desirable "us"--Church group, parents, popular kids, whatever. What better way to mark your belonging to the in-group than to persecute someone more obviously in the out-group?

So nature--our sexualities, our bodies--is composed of spectra, but our opinions tend to fall into harmful and divisive binaries, and this creates a scramble to belong to one side of the divide, and to be seen as belonging to one side. When people feed the view that one side is better--and that there are even distinct sides--they fuck over nature, and fuck over our children.

So, fuck your fat-phobia, and fuck the kind of "tolerance" that wrings its hands at kids' deaths without becoming enraged and doing something to change the state of affairs in this bigoted, awful country.

I Hate Screennames, you ARE contributing to the bullying of 'fat people.' You ARE contributing to the social conditioning that makes people with a higher-than-average BMI feel depressed, lonely, unattractive and unlovable. And you ARE part of the cultural force that drives even people with doctor-approved BMIs to constantly watch their weight and worry about LOOKING too fat. So fuck you.

And fuck any 'tolerant' Christians who don't take the state of things to be ample evidence that they need to take over the leadership of their churches and congregations NOW, and take the megaphones out of the hands of people whose words do violence to others.
More...
Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 3:00 AM · Report this
122
@108 I Hate Screennames:

Yes, your anti-fat comments contribute to an anti-fat culture. They help to cement the idea that it is natural and right to view fat individuals as ugly and disgusting. Even Dan said in Skipping to Gomorrah that views on physical attractiveness are social and cultural.

Your "soft" bigotry against fat people, your patronizing attitude ("it's demonstrably unhealthy") which is supposed to make your bigotry okay because you just care about people making unhealthy choices, these are exactly what help create a fat-hating, fat-phobic spectrum, with horrible bullies at one end, and you somewhere in the middle, and people who think "fatties" are "gross" privately but are too "polite" to voice it in public at the other end.

This is what Dan is talking about with gay people, too. Your "soft" bigotry naturalizes all bigotry, and kids aren't the most subtle or nuanced creatures, so what they're likely to hear in your message, and in quasi-tolerant Christians' messages about gay people, is that fatties and gays are classifiably different types of people and it's not okay to be one of them.

Now the problem is that if sexuality and homosociality exists on natural spectrum, as well as body type, and kids start to worry that they're one of the incorrect and unacceptable "them," they are going to lash out at a more obvious "them" as a means to feel more like the acceptable, desirable "us"--Church group, parents, popular kids, whatever. What better way to mark your belonging to the in-group than to persecute someone more obviously in the out-group?

So nature--our sexualities, our bodies--is composed of spectra, but our opinions tend to fall into harmful and divisive binaries, and this creates a scramble to belong to one side of the divide, and to be seen as belonging to one side. When people feed the view that one side is better--and that there are even distinct sides--they fuck over nature, and fuck over our children.

So, fuck your fat-phobia, and fuck the kind of "tolerance" that wrings its hands at kids' deaths without becoming enraged and doing something to change the state of affairs in this bigoted, awful country.

I Hate Screennames, you ARE contributing to the bullying of 'fat people.' You ARE contributing to the social conditioning that makes people with a higher-than-average BMI feel depressed, lonely, unattractive and unlovable. And you ARE part of the cultural force that drives even people with doctor-approved BMIs to constantly watch their weight and worry about LOOKING too fat. So fuck you.

And fuck any 'tolerant' Christians who don't take the state of things to be ample evidence that they need to take over the leadership of their churches and congregations NOW, and take the megaphones out of the hands of people whose words do violence to others.
More...
Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 3:03 AM · Report this
123
It seems that the whole chicks with dicks porn thing has been getting a huge ramp up in popularity and exposure of late. Been noticing more and more of it around and gotta say some of it, if the chick is beautiful and she can get hard and come - is pretty damn hot! I see a bright future for this particular niche of the industry.
Posted by bagel on October 14, 2010 at 3:56 AM · Report this
124
108, 121

Saying that being fat is demonstrably unhealthy is not the same thing as being a bigot. It's not correct to say "any fat person is less healthy than any slim person" but it's silly to argue with "being fat is less healthy than being slim". That opinion doesn't make me a bigot; what would make me a bigot would be saying that fat people don't deserve to get married, or walk around in public, or whatever (those are *not* my opinions!).

(a) thinking that fat is unhealthy is not bigotry, and therefore
(b) the fat argument is not a good analogy of the gay bigotry discussion
Posted by AK on October 14, 2010 at 4:26 AM · Report this
125
124 correction:
what I meant was, it's silly to argue, in general, that "being fat is *more* healthy than being slim"
Posted by AK on October 14, 2010 at 4:27 AM · Report this
126
Thank you Dan, for once again stating the unvarnished truth as you see it. Keep speaking out. I came to the conclusion some years ago that Jesus had tried to teach his followers FORGIVNESS above all else. He pointed out time and time again through his parables that ANYONE who thought they were better or more deserving than any other person were destined to be judged by their own criteria- measured by their own yardstick. Jesus routinely accepted as brothers and sisters the worst offenders in his society: Prostitutes, drunks, tax collectors (read, political sellouts) the diseased,deformed, heretics, and Romans- that is- anyone who got his message that God sees you as a worthy person, and all you had to do was accept yourself, forgive your own imperfections, and do the same for others. He was especially critical of those who hurt children- even with words. So I dont call myself a Christian. Because I believe in the teachings of this man named Jesus, and I see very few Christians who follow his teachings.
Posted by Agelena on October 14, 2010 at 5:35 AM · Report this
127
my response to Dan's response to LR:
Thank you Dan, for once again stating the unvarnished truth as you see it. Keep speaking out. I came to the conclusion some years ago that Jesus had tried to teach his followers FORGIVNESS above all else. He pointed out time and time again through his parables that ANYONE who thought they were better or more deserving than any other person were destined to be judged by their own criteria- measured by their own yardstick. Jesus routinely accepted as brothers and sisters the worst offenders in his society: Prostitutes, drunks, tax collectors (read, political sellouts) the diseased,deformed, heretics, and Romans- that is- anyone who got his message that God sees you as a worthy person, and all you had to do was accept yourself, forgive your own imperfections, and do the same for others. He was especially critical of those who hurt children- even with words. So I dont call myself a Christian. Because I believe in the teachings of this man named Jesus, and I see very few Christians who follow his teachings.
Posted by Agelena on October 14, 2010 at 5:41 AM · Report this
128
@127 Funny that the fundamentalists always leave out the 'do the same for others part'.
Posted by capricorn44 on October 14, 2010 at 6:08 AM · Report this
129
Ah Dan, yet again you found someone to exploit. "observant Christians", suicidal gays, anythings fodder for Dan's self-promotion.
Posted by wllmwllr on October 14, 2010 at 6:44 AM · Report this
130
Not all Christian churches are equal. The church I go to does not condemn or hate. We teach and practice love. Are there people in my congregation that are hateful and wrong? Yes. Is that my congregation as a whole? No.
I am a gay Christian. I believe that God is love. I have been taught to love others as Jesus loves me.
Alienating an entire group of people by saying that all Christians are hateful, bigoted, suicide-causing people won't help your cause. Because we're not all the same.
Posted by freeadventure on October 14, 2010 at 7:14 AM · Report this
131
What really kills me at the end of the first letter is that "oh so loving Christian" TELLS Dan Savage to be more careful with his words. Doesn't suggest, doesn't request - instructs. If that is not indicative of self-righteous ass-hattery, I don't know what is.
Posted by CLM on October 14, 2010 at 7:28 AM · Report this
132
I'm with 15. Has she brought up playing with a strap on? He might like that. My boyfriend isn't exclusively into transgirls, but he does like them, I think in part because it's a "safe" way to play with cock. . . and I swear, all guys, gay or straight, are obsessed with cock. Plus, he likes having his ass played with, which I think is a somewhat separate thing--how many transgirls have reliably working cocks?--but you might as well bring it up and see if he'd be into it, as an extra fun thing for you guys to do if nothing else.

"that's a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers."

I like a sexy transgirl or transguy (Hello, Buck Angel. Yummm. . . Usually not attracted to super muscle-bound guys, either, but. . . um. . . Buck is HOT. Heh.) and I'm female.

Also, thank you Dan for knocking holes into that woman's letter. You basically said what I could never quite articulate.

@16: "I have respect for anyone whose faith leads them to do the humane thing."

Me, too.

@25: "There's nothing in the mail to indicate the lady in question was the girlfriend he cheated on. I think we've all been in relationships that were just not terribly serious and hence not exclusive. Marriage isn't like that."

I didn't take it as her being the one that was cheated on either, but how soundly would you sleep knowing your boyfriend/girlfriend cheated on their previous partner? What makes you so special that he/she wouldn't cheat on YOU, you know?

"people kill themselves all the time, for all sorts of reasons. "

Yeah, but these are KIDS that are feeling suicidally hopeless and being BULLIED to DEATH.
Posted by Taffy on October 14, 2010 at 7:35 AM · Report this
133
I'm with 15. Has she brought up playing with a strap on? He might like that. My boyfriend isn't exclusively into transgirls, but he does like them, I think in part because it's a "safe" way to play with cock. . . and I swear, all guys, gay or straight, are obsessed with cock. Plus, he likes having his ass played with, which I think is a somewhat separate thing--how many transgirls have reliably working cocks?--but you might as well bring it up and see if he'd be into it, as an extra fun thing for you guys to do if nothing else.

"that's a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers."

I like a sexy transgirl or transguy (Hello, Buck Angel. Yummm. . . Usually not attracted to super muscle-bound guys, either, but. . . um. . . Buck is HOT. Heh.) and I'm female.

Also, thank you Dan for knocking holes into that woman's letter. You basically said what I could never quite articulate.

@16: "I have respect for anyone whose faith leads them to do the humane thing."

Me, too.

@25: "There's nothing in the mail to indicate the lady in question was the girlfriend he cheated on. I think we've all been in relationships that were just not terribly serious and hence not exclusive. Marriage isn't like that."

I didn't take it as her being the one that was cheated on either, but how soundly would you sleep knowing your boyfriend/girlfriend cheated on their previous partner? What makes you so special that he/she wouldn't cheat on YOU, you know?

"people kill themselves all the time, for all sorts of reasons. "

Yeah, but these are KIDS that are feeling suicidally hopeless and being BULLIED to DEATH.
Posted by Taffy on October 14, 2010 at 7:36 AM · Report this
134
Sorry for the double post. D'oh.
Posted by Taffy on October 14, 2010 at 7:36 AM · Report this
Godzilla1916 135
Bravo Dan, way to stick it to the "Magic Sky Friend Jesus" Clan!
Posted by Godzilla1916 on October 14, 2010 at 7:41 AM · Report this
136
I LOVED the answer to the 1st letter, I'm an atheist, living in a majority catholic country (that legalized gay marriage earlier this year!!!), and I am so sick of religious people (be it catholic, jehovas witnees, whatever) talking crap about any subject... not just homosexuality, I can't explain the aount of criticism I have received for not baptizing my daughter, not wanting to send her to catholic schools.. Even though catholic schoools are traditionally better here, I refuse to send her to a lace that when gay marriage was legalized, sent home with every kid from kindy up a pamphlet saying that the only true family is a mother, a father and kids!!! Not to mention an article I read last week about a prminent catholic school making the boys that wanted to start tere sign an agreement to not "turn gay" as a condition of being accepted...
SO many religious people think they are better than the rest of us just for being religious, what happened to "love thy neighbour"? Not to mention the atrocities mankind has committed sincce forever in name of religion.
Sorry for such a long post, I'm passionate about this subject!
Posted by jlkm on October 14, 2010 at 8:02 AM · Report this
137
I've honestly never seen the argument before today that "good Christians" should be held responsible for the actions of the crazy ones, or the ones that have been dead for 2000 years. I totally understand where it's coming from, but that's like me (being of Jewish descent) saying that all Germans suck cause a while back there were Nazis, and the people didn't fight back hard enough.

I don't know that I'd call myself Christian, but I believe in God. I wasn't really raised anything, and I've explored other religions, but what I believe is what I believe. I started going to church a few years back, and went right up until my bible study teacher said something about gays never forming long term relationships (it was all about sex). I stood up, said, "Sorry, but that's insane." explained that I'd just had lunch with a man who's been with his partner for 25 years, and I left. So no, I'm not "supporting" anything. Just because I'm religious doesn't mean I'm dropping money into collection plates and calmly watching a few morons pick and choose from a book what's convenient to believe and try to ruin peoples lives. You can be Christian without going to or supporting a church. I certainly don't think I'll ever find God in one. Not my God, anyway.

I've marched in parades, organized a day of silence back in high school, and "debated" with my ultra-Christian MIL until I was blue in the face. The only "recognition" I've ever sought is from my Christian-raised fiance, who's come a heck long way from the man who voted for Bush purely because he had conservative values (in fact, he's nearly as outspoken as I am nowadays) and in seeing my much-younger siblings grow into people who'll speak out when it's the right thing to do. I believe in God, though, so I'm not a good enough ally? I understand where the sentiment is coming from, and it's not going to change who I am or what I believe is the right thing to do, but ouch.

Anybunnies, I'm not the best at putting my thoughts down on paper, so good luck on reading the babbling mess I just wrote. :-)
More...
Posted by Nikkuhlee on October 14, 2010 at 8:19 AM · Report this
138
Excellent, excellent, and even MORE excellent. I'm happy to read that you pull no punches when slugging away at these impossible people. They need to be STOPPED, not given a forum that ultimately leads to kids' deaths. That goes for their damn fundy parents, too. I have this running on Suite 101:

http://www.suite101.com/content/are-you-…

Keep up the good fight, and best regards and hugs to you both !!
Posted by JimmyBoi2 on October 14, 2010 at 8:38 AM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 139
@121: Thank you, that was exactly the kind of nonsense I was trying to incite. So if my kid started getting obese, I should throw up my hands and accept that we are all God's beautiful creations. Because encouraging him to lose weight would send the bigoted message that being obese is bad, and thus I'd be responsible for bullying everywhere. Got it.

@124: I agree that opposition to obesity is not bigotry, but I don't see how that distinction matters when discussing the link between a negative attitudes and bullying. Are you saying that the collateral bullying damage is acceptable if your opinion is justified?

If so, I don't see how that's going to convince the anti-gays. They really do believe that homosexuality is bad, and thus they will similarly accept the collateral bullying damage. I've long argued that religious people can think whatever they want to think, so long as they don't seek to impose their religious laws on anyone else. Saying that they can't believe something (they think) the Bible tells them to believe attacks their religion directly, which does not strike me as a winning approach.

And in truth, any argument that says people can't even think something makes me squeamish. It's a little too Orwellian for my tastes.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 8:38 AM · Report this
140
I think the Apostle Paul said it best when he said that Christianity is like having a great, big, blue-veined cock. You know, a real Louisville Slugger. That is to say: it's wonderful! But you shouldn't wag it around in public, or beat people over the head with it, and you definitely should not cram it down a child's throat.
Posted by Sergei on October 14, 2010 at 8:45 AM · Report this
Cherry Pirate 141
This Philosophy nerd (see: useless;friendless) applauds your very succinct detailed and properly ordered reasoning. Perhaps the most fantastic point was the idea of bullying abstractly. Even if I didn't agree (which I do), I would have enjoyed reading that because of how excellently argued it was.
Posted by Cherry Pirate on October 14, 2010 at 9:02 AM · Report this
142
Jesus taught us to love, love your neighbour as you love yourself, I am quite afraid that some people take this seriously, they hate themselves and as a result show hate to others, it is easier to relocate the shame you feel about yourself to someone else than to face your own demons. As a pastor I remember a case where a friend of mine preached tolerance for all people, some good Christians left this church and went to a neighbouring one, I was quite impressed when their new pastor "came out". I have the whole thing figured out, when I am perfect I will show up to offer to tell tell you what to do, in the meantime I'll use what Jesus taught to try and make myself a better person and the world a better place, you know, I'm pretty sure you are trying likewise
Posted by Pastor John on October 14, 2010 at 9:17 AM · Report this
143
@124 Ak, @108/139

Indeed, being extremely overweight causes more health problems than being at an average bodyweight--almost always. Being extremely underweight, though, has even more dire, and by far more immediate, health threats. Obviously you don't get the "anti-slim" argument in America because we have an obesity trend. Even people undernourished in this country can be obese because they might get as many or more calories than they need, but the food they eat is so fucking terrible that they exhibit signs of undernourishment! We have a big food problem in this country, and it hurts poor people the most.

But, that being said, you can be a "little" too skinny visibly and it might translate into more than a "little" too skinny medically--people with average or somewhat higher than average BMIs are actually said now, scientifically, to live longer and have fewer heart problems than those on the low end of average or under-average.

So it is not ridiculous to argue that being slim is less healthy than being "fat"--if by "fat" you mean what we visibly take to be overweight in this culture, which can be someone of even a normal BMI!

So let the doctors and scientists tell you who is "too fat" to be healthy. Do you see someone who looks like they weigh 400 pounds? Yeah, they've probably got weight-related health problems: joint issues, back issues, cardiovascular issues. But why is it your place to care? They probably have a doctor. They've probably already heard it all.

We don't have socialized medicine, so that's not a real issue here. Emergency rooms, sure, but almost none of that is overweight people having overweight-related health crises.

So 108/139, your "anti-fat" shit is bigotry, and my response isn't ridiculous. If your child starts to get obese, by all means, that is your business. Talk to your doctor about how to put the darling little so-and-so on an effective diet, but ASK, first, if the kid is really medically obese and in medical danger...just in case your bigoted, fat-phobic eyes are registering a slightly-higher-than-average BMI--nothing to worry about--as clinical obesity (something to worry about).

And, no, you do not want to send the message that being obese is "bad" any more than you want to send the message that having any other medical condition is "bad." Medical conditions are something to be worked with in order to help the person suffering from them--not something for you to go around judging as "bad."

Now, do you want your kid at a healthy BMI (which differs from person to person) because you hate the way fat people look, or because you want your kid to have the healthiest future possible?

Nothing wrong with the second one, and EVERYTHING wrong with the first. And your concern should probably stop at your own child. Don't make public "anti-fat" comments, you little beautiful snowflake of God you: they're not helping anyone.
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Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 9:35 AM · Report this
144
seriously...can we make a TShirt that says "Magic Sky Friend Jesus" and sell it to benefit The Trevor Project?

genius phrase.

Thanks Dan!!!
Posted by echoshmecho on October 14, 2010 at 10:22 AM · Report this
145
Dude, fitness is about how well your body works. I take African dance. I'm average weight, and I'm in class with a lot of fat women who are more flexible than me, can dance longer than me, have better coordination than me. That means their muscles, hearts, lungs and nerves are all in better shape than mine. And yeah, they are fat. Fatty fat fatsos in glowing, vibrant health. So check yourself before you wreck yourself, ok?
Posted by SI on October 14, 2010 at 10:44 AM · Report this
146
@145

WORD. Thank you for putting it so well.
Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 11:01 AM · Report this
147
@53, and anyone else who thinks equating judgment against christianity is equal to judgment against a person's sexuality (or whatever the proper term is)

People CHOOSE their religion and participate in it voluntarily.

That cannot be said for your personal sexual procilivities.

I also kind of wish Dan had mentioned that to LR1, but he nailed it anyway!
Posted by ebetsy on October 14, 2010 at 11:06 AM · Report this
148
@53, and anyone else who thinks equating judgment against christianity is equal to judgment against a person's sexuality (or whatever the proper term is)

People CHOOSE their religion and participate in it voluntarily.

That cannot be said for your personal sexual procilivities.

I also kind of wish Dan had mentioned that to LR1, but he nailed it anyway!
Posted by ebetsy on October 14, 2010 at 11:06 AM · Report this
149
how can americans be so brilliant, like you dan, and so fucking stupid, like religious fools?? Is this what democracy means? Argh! I am just grateful that your words get written and read, and you arent sent to jail for 11 years... Give the nobel prize to dan!
Posted by bobfromcanada on October 14, 2010 at 11:40 AM · Report this
150
how can americans be so brilliant, like you dan, and so fucking stupid, like religious fools?? Is this what democracy means? Argh! I am just grateful that your words get written and read, and you arent sent to jail for 11 years... Give the nobel prize to dan!
Posted by bobfromcanada on October 14, 2010 at 11:41 AM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 151
@143, 145: Sigh. I'm using obesity to make a point about the flaw in Dan's logic. Stop reading from your fat acceptance movement scripts and listen to what I'm actually saying.

First, there are two levels of acceptance that you seem to be compacting together: legal acceptance and social acceptance. I think we all agree that everyone-- be they white, black, gay, straight, fat, or thin-- is entitled to the same level of legal acceptance. That means everyone should be able to marry a person of their choosing, everyone should be protected from unjust discrimination, everyone should receive equal pay for equal work, etc.

Where we part ways is at social acceptance. Everyone is not entitled to the same level of social acceptance, because people can and should be able to socialize with whomever they damn well please. If I don't like or don't want to be friends with fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets, that's my choice and I'm entitled to it (though perhaps I should learn to be more open minded). And if the collective effect of many people's choices is that fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets have less friends or are seen as less socially desirable, then that's the price we pay for living in a free society. If I can't choose who I like or don't like, then I don't know what "freedom" means.

Second, there's a level of courtesy that should be expected of people in a civilized society. That means that even if I don't like fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets, that doesn't give me license to be rude to them, much less bully them or encourage bullying them. Of course, I should raise my kid to treat others with the same level of courtesy.

Third, a person who doesn't like fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets doesn't necessarily approve of them being bullied to death. That I have a preference for thin people, atheists, college graduates, whites, Democrats, straights, Americans, or basketball players doesn't mean I want fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets to die. Nor does it make me an accomplice to their suicides.

Thus, the problem with Dan's argument-- and yours-- is the attempt to use suicides to strongarm people into socially accepting gays and fat people (or Mormons, Republicans, etc.). "You have to accept everyone," the argument goes, "otherwise kids learn it's OK to disapprove of fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets, and thus they learn its OK to bully, and thus they cause some kids to commit suicide, and that's your fault."

No, it isn't. Everyone makes social choices, kids will always bully, and the way to stop bullycide is to teach kids how to behave like decent human beings, not to teach them to love everyone equally.

Now to the extent Dan is arguing that the lack of legal acceptance for gays sends a particularly strong message about them being "less than"-- a message that is not transmitted about fat people-- and thus a particularly strong incentive for kids to bully LGBT kids, then I'm on board with that. But I get off the train once it states that we all need to socially accept everyone.
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Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 11:53 AM · Report this
152
In regards to that first letter, fucking amen. My gay friend recently shared a note he got from his cousin [he had been posting all the articles about gay teens committing suicide]. That note? Said that they wouldn't have done it if Jesus was in their lives and that it was their decision to be gay. o.O He tore that cousin a new one, but holy fuck...THIS is what leads to LGBT suicides. How can they "have Jesus in their lives" if in the same breath, they're being told how wrong and sinful they are for who they ARE?
Posted by Lillielle on October 14, 2010 at 1:10 PM · Report this
153
Bravo Dan!

To believe that god is an asshole that thinks that his followers should degrade those that don't follow him is shitbrained-wacko!

To believe that two consentual adults can love each other no matter thier sex or gender makes clear-as-day sense.

I'm all about degrading those that choose to be shitbrained bigots. I fully support euthinasia of shitbrained bigots. If shitbrained bigotry happens to be genetic then it's time to weed out the gene pool an up the percentage of humans on this planet that can except that love (including love with sexual attraction) is love no matter what the sex/gender combination is in the relationship.

Once again...Dan, you are The Man!
Posted by Amuk on October 14, 2010 at 1:18 PM · Report this
154
Bravo Dan!

To believe that god is an asshole that thinks that his followers should degrade those that don't follow him is shitbrained-wacko!

To believe that two consentual adults can love each other no matter thier sex or gender makes clear-as-day sense.

I'm all about degrading those that choose to be shitbrained bigots. I fully support euthinasia of shitbrained bigots. If shitbrained bigotry happens to be genetic then it's time to weed out the gene pool an up the percentage of humans on this planet that can except that love (including love with sexual attraction) is love no matter what the sex/gender combination is in the relationship.

Once again...Dan, you are The Man!
Posted by Amuk on October 14, 2010 at 1:21 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 155
BTW: I think a better lesson to be drawn from the high number of gay teenagers killing themselves is this: Gay teens who are rejected by their parents are over eight times as likely to attempt suicide as those who are not.

Eight times. Holy fuck.

I can't think of any risk a reasonable parent would be willing to subject their kid to that increases the chance of death by that much. Which means homophobic parents should suck it up and give their gay kids a big hug when they come out. Unless they are so mean and hateful-- such manifestly bad parents-- that they're OK with octupling the chance of a suicide.

Also: that anti-gay vitriol? Pretty much guarantees that your kid-- who just might be gay-- won't come out to you and won't get that love and support he or she absolutely fucking needs to make it through the teenage years.

For once, let's actually think of the children. Not just any children, your children.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 1:27 PM · Report this
156
Here is a response Dan for your pounding on the Christian that wrote in. Chill the FUCK down. Homosexual are killing themselves? Homosexual children are having a tough time? Guess what they are hardly alone in any of these facts. Yes it is sad, yes it is a tragedy, yes we should do everything possible to see it happens less often but gays are not alone in such problems and pounding on Christians is not the answer to the problem. Especially when Christians, of all their stripes and flavors, outnumber by an order of magnitude any other religious group in the USA. None of Abrahamic Religions from a matter of dogma have a very friendly attitude towards gays. With these points in the front of your mind Dan now remember that the USA is a Republic where citizens vote on various things.

So what exactly do you think you are going to get done for your cause? Said cause being gay rights. When you bash the majority religious group, especially when some reach out to you? Besides venting your anger at people that is. People that get dumped on tend to respond in kind.

You are a case in point, Christians, especially the fundamentalist variety tend to dump on gays. So naturally you want to reply in kind. One slight problem when you are hugely in the minority it’s at best a fools game and most likely totally counterproductive.

Posted by Anonymous2010 on October 14, 2010 at 1:36 PM · Report this
157
Regarding L.R.

Your argument is basically this: "I don't care if making wide generalizations hurts people's feelings because that group [Christianity] as a whole is doing something wrong."

People who bully might say: "I don't care if making wide generalizations hurts people's feelings because that group [Gay people] as a whole is doing something wrong."

I'm having a hard time seeing how you're taking the high road here. I know full well that you disagree with traditional religious views on homosexual behavior, but your argument basically comes down to a relativistic he-said-she-said kind of "logic". No one will be convinced by this unless they already agree with you.

Those who advocate for gay marriage and the gay community in general have to realize it is a minority. As a minority it will not get very far making these "because I said so" type arguments. Logic and consistency is the only route. For instance, if love makes a family/ one man and one woman is an arbitrarily unfair distinction, why not allow all forms of marriage (especially polygamy)? If homosexually is not immoral because it can't be helped, why isn't pedophilia immoral? These are the questions, Dan, that need to be answered well if you are going to be taken seriously be the larger population.

I do realize that your comments are part of a noble effort to get kids through bullying. But please remember kids are bullied for all sorts of reasons and it all equally sucks. You do no help to your cause in referring to a "magical sky friend" which is as hurtful and insulting to religious people as any "faggot" uttered. You only give your opponents more ammunition with columns like these.
Posted by FCCG on October 14, 2010 at 1:40 PM · Report this
158
@ 151, I Hate Screen Names

Look, I can see you're having trouble understanding any logic but your own, so let me try again. And let me preface this by saying that if there's a "fat acceptance movement script," I don't have a copy, but I wish copies would be widely distributed.

First, we are talking primarily about social acceptance, not legal acceptance. Telling a kid he can or can't be out and gay in the military isn't the big issue right here: calling the kid a pansy, or whatever other forms of bullying take place, *is* the main issue here.

It is the lack of social acceptance that is what pushes these kids to depression and, some, to suicide.

If you are making public "anti-fat" comments, as you previously claimed you do, you *are* contributing to an unpleasant social atmosphere for heavier kids, and adults, too. You *are not* observing the basic level of courtesy that you tout. And if you make anti-fat comments, kids will make anti-fat comments. Even if you say, "Timmy is such an ugly little fattie, but shh my darling child, don't repeat what I said because that isn't polite," first, your child is probably smart enough to realize right off that you're a fucking hypocrite. Second, monkey see, monkey do. Third, you're going to give that kid some serious image issues if they ever gain even a little weight, because they'll worry about how fat they can get before mommy or daddy thinks they're a fit subject for ridicule. Part of teaching kids to behave like a decent human being is behaving like one yourself: it's easier to teach them not to be prejudiced if you, yourself, are not.

So that is why I am trying to get you to see the flaws in your own argumentation. Others have already pointed out that "fat" and "gay" aren't parallel enough for you to use as an example of how Dan is wrong. I can lay it out for you--and debate your arguments point by point--if you really want me to. But, I get this feeling that your recourse to touting our "free" society as the reason we shouldn't encourage real tolerance means that you're probably hiding behind your "freedom" to believe whatever you want, even if what you believe is poorly reasoned and harmful to others.

And if you don't think that there is a strong social message that fat people are "less than" in this culture, consider advertising, consider bullying, consider television...consider the thousand dominant sources that tell fat people daily that they are LESS attractive, LESS healthy, LESS desirable, than thin people. That they have LESS self-control... And all these things tell a fat kid or a fat adult that they are LESS deserving of love and fulfillment, because we value things like sexual attractiveness in this culture so highly--and decide that fat people can't possibly be sexually attractive.

Personal social affiliation is different from social acceptance, but too many personal choices tipping the scale in one direction can create acceptance...or not. So when Dan is trying to "strong-arm" people into socially accepting gays, it's because we do not have a civilized or enlightened level of true social acceptance yet, and he's trying to tip the scale. An ignorant person will definitely remain ignorant if they don't hear about other options (or sometimes have their faces rubbed in those options/ their own shit). A bigoted person will definitely remain bigoted unless there are social pressures that show bigotry as an undesirable trait. There is nothing wrong with what Dan is doing (and his logic is only flawed from your skewed perspective): he is trying to create a less ignorant, less bigoted social world.

Let me put it this way: what if you saw a fat person and thought, truly thought, "Wow, what an attractive individual!" Wouldn't you be a happier person if you could celebrate that your world was filled with interesting, diverse, attractive people? Wouldn't your children be happier if they had a more accepting perspective? Bigotry hurts the bigoted and makes them live in a scarier, uglier world, and so bigotry affects them nearly as much as it hurts those whom the bigotry is directed against.

We should see it as our responsibility to create as loving and accepting a world as possible for our children, and a big part of this means eradicating irrational prejudices.

If you can't see this, I Hate Screen Names, and can't get behind what Dan is trying to do, and what "fat acceptance" people are trying to do, well, I urge you to reconsider where your biases and opinions come from, and what kind of legacy they're likely to leave.
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Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 1:57 PM · Report this
John Horstman 159
I'm already posted my own much-more-confrontational-and-militant anti-religion rants on other threads, so I think I'll let this one go. Instead I'll take up an issue about which Queer Theory has much to say:

@27: Actually, it's "orientation" that's bullshit, as it indicates a universal, uniform, essentialized view of sexuality. "Preference" doesn't indicate a "choice" in the sense of selecting from a number of equally-valid options (in fact, quite the opposite; it indicates that you CAN'T do anything about that which you prefer), it indicates a preference: for example, I prefer drinking gin and tonic to drinking urine - there's nothing that's going to change that preference if all things are equal, but there ARE environmental circumstances that might change it e.g. someone holding a gun to my head or I'm about to die from alcohol poisoning. This is a MUCH better reflection of sexuality; otherwise-straight men, for example, may have sex with other men when confined to mono-gender environments for long periods of time (prison). That doesn't mean their preference isn't heterosexual, and "preference" is better than "orientation" because "orientation" implies some sort of permanence/essentialism/exclusiveness that the prison scenario contradicts. "Preference" also allows for a much more varied set of parameters than "orientation": my own sexual preferences are for oral-oral contact with persons who possess vulvas and vaginas and with whom I have some sort of intellectual compatibility, for performing oral- and digital-genital stimulation on said persons, for having oral-genital stimulation performed on me by said persons, and for engaging in both penetrative and non-penetrative genital-genital contact/stimulation with said persons in a generally egalitarian and vulvocentric manner, all not in public spaces. Now that's both more descriptive and MUCH more accurate than "straight", particularly since it doesn't mean that I WON'T engage in other sex acts, just that these are the types of sex I prefer and seek out. The language of "preference" also helps deconstruct sexuality as an all-important, naturalized, essentialized aspect of "identity", a phenomenon that is highly problematic given the sort of culture wars it engenders. Read some Judith Butler or Kate Bornstein; we need new discursive strategies, because Liberal Toleration (we're talking the formal philosophy here) is proving to be NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
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Posted by John Horstman on October 14, 2010 at 2:26 PM · Report this
160
Letter & response #1 gave me chills. I still have goosebumps.

Bravo Dan, very well done.
Posted by Elsabear on October 14, 2010 at 2:34 PM · Report this
161
I like Savage Love but sometimes Dan Savage can be a self-righteous dick. Speaking as an All Gay Man, I think Chicks With Dicks are HOT HOT HOT. I wish Dan would stick to speaking from his own personal perspective on subjects. His perspective is at times funny, interesting, and intriguing. He does not however speak for All Gay Men, and I wish that he and All Others would avoid such blanket statements, it is a disservice to the GLBT community to have one of our own members making generalizations about us like that. Who died and made you Queen anyway Dan?
Posted by Big Red on October 14, 2010 at 2:39 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 162
@158: Perhaps there is some confusion as to what I meant by "anti-fat" comments, which are not the same as "anti-fat people" comments. By anti-fat, I mean comments that Americans in general are obese, that obesity is an increasing problem, and that there needs to be some kind of national dialog on how to address and reduce Americans' bulging waistlines. All of these comments implicitly or explicitly assume that obesity is "bad," and are thus anti-fat. I don't mean singling out individuals who happen to be overweight and disparaging them on that basis, which I agree is rude and uncalled for.

In addition, I don't want my kid to be fat, for both health and social reasons. Were he to gain weight, I would encourage him to lose it, enroll him in more physical activities, etc. This too is an "anti-fat" attitude. And while I've repeatedly agreed that obesity is unlike homosexuality, that's only because I am not anti-gay. Were I anti-gay; that is, were I the people Dan is trying to reach; I would have the same attitude about gaiety: I don't want my kid to be gay, I would encourage him to be straight, etc.

My point in bringing up obesity was to show people how Dan's argument looks when you don't already agree with the conclusion. Since you are part of the fat-acceptance "choir," as it were, you're missing the whole point. So pick some other characteristic: your kid starts hanging out with Scientologists, or gets really into Ayn Rand, or decides that Jesus is his personal Savior. Preferably pick a characteristic that you disapprove of that has negative social implications, and make the same "bullycide" argument to yourself. It will very likely not seem as convincing to you as the gay and fat versions.

For instance: if I disapprove of potheads, and I tell my kid that he shouldn't smoke pot, am I responsible for any bullying that potheads endure? Again, I'm not equating drug use to homosexuality or to obesity; I'm just trying to get you to see how the bullycide line of argument looks to people who think that their point of view is reasonable.

In other words, I'm trying to get people to see how the argument looks from the other side. I'm not agreeing with the other side.

Let me try stating it another way: bigotry doesn't look like bigotry to the bigoted. Anti-gay people don't dislike gays for no reason; they (think they) have valid rationales ground in the Bible or health or somesuch nonsense. Anti-fat people don't dislike fat for no reason; they (think they) have valid reasons ground in health or ease of socialization. Anti-drug people don't dislike drug use for no reason; they (think they) have valid reasons ground in health or exposure to criminality. So Dan's argument doesn't work unless you already agree with his conclusion; if you don't, you will insist that you have valid reasons for holding the viewpoint that you do, and it isn't your fault that some kids are assholes using that as an excuse.

I'm not suggesting that we not work to change people's attitudes; my point is that you can't use bullycide to morally blackmail people into changing those attitudes.
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Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 2:46 PM · Report this
163
So I didn't have the time and effort to read all of the comments, but I'm fairly certain I have a good grasp on the arguments being made. I'd just like to make a quick point that I hadn't seen up until the 50th post or so.

If you are christian, you are a fucking morons. Plain and simple. There's no division between good christian and bad christina...you're all bad christians. Or more accurately, moronic christians. Every last one of you. The "Good" christians, in a way, are worse, because they seemingly have an at least somewhat rational head on their shoulders, and still believe that a magic man in the sky cares about them.

Religion truly is the opiate of the masses. People are too afraid to believe that their lives are ultimately meaningless and so they turn to "faith". It's called denial people.

I've always been a fairly tolerant person (despite what this post may entail) mainly because gay people, minorities, etc have absolutely no choice for who they are. If they did, no one would chose to be gay, why subject themselves to that?

But as a get older I grow less and less tolerant for so called religious people. Religion isn't something you inherently are, its something you choose to be. And if you choose to be religious, I hate to say it, but you're a fucking moron.
Posted by goddamnyouryan on October 14, 2010 at 3:05 PM · Report this
164
@ 151, I Hate Screen Names

Put simply, you are reserving the right to be a high school mean-girl, right?

*************
Overheard outside of IHSN's office:

Colleague: "Why didn't you invite Jane to party? You invited everyone else on the entire floor."

IHSN: "Well, Brianna, you see... Jane is fat and Canadian. And while I support her right to get married, have a family, and serve in the military I really can't deal with her being in my home, even for a few hours.

Colleague: "But she was the only one from the office you didn't invite... I mean, you singled her out..."

IHSN: "I also have a screen saver of her. I photoshopped her head onto Jabba the Hutt. A few of us at work had a big laugh over that. See, here it is... Look! Hilarious, right?"

Colleague: "How can you be so mean to her?"

IHSN: "Mean? I'm not mean to her. I smile every time I pass her desk."

**********

So you're not a bigot, just an asshole, right?
Posted by BDNF on October 14, 2010 at 3:20 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 165
@164: Are you incapable of arguing a position you do not hold?

I've repeatedly stated that I don't actually agree with most of the positions I'm taking-- that's why I made my list of "undesirables" so whimsical. I'm trying to approach Dan's statements more critically, as someone who doesn't already agree with him. In other words, I'm trying to figure out if "bullycide" would actually convince anyone not already convinced. So your personal attacks are even less effective than usual.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 3:39 PM · Report this
166
RE: the first response - right on Dan. "We judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions." The "loving Christians" who are against gay rights can't see past their "good" intentions of saving "traditional marriage" to the reality of the harm their actions cause in the world. Way to take him to task.
Posted by ThinkBannedThoughts on October 14, 2010 at 3:39 PM · Report this
167
<3 Dan, Keep fighting the good fight, man. It definitely makes a difference and you're in a rare position to really publicize this issue.
Posted by muffin on October 14, 2010 at 3:51 PM · Report this
168
@ 157 - Homosexuality hurts no one. Pedophilia hurts children. Can't tell the difference?
Posted by Ricardo on October 14, 2010 at 4:13 PM · Report this
169
Dan,

As we all have opinions on everything the bottom line is everyone deserves the opportunity to live their lives as they see fit as long as it does not physically hurt anyone intentially. I believe something my Mom told me a long time ago, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" and another one that works for me, "you made your bed so lay in it". All most of us want is to be recognized, treated fairly and live our lives to it's fullest potential. Who are we to judge what is right and wrong? Love comes in different forms and fashion. Shouldn't we all be trying to do our part with those who come across our paths in life? If we do won't that help us to meet our maker (whoever we believe that may be in our personal part in the world of beliefs)? Bless you for being a voice for those who are timid, scared, in hiding, confused and most importantly.....alone.
Posted by DHCS on October 14, 2010 at 4:15 PM · Report this
170
Okay, I Hate Screen Names, your point has become clearer. It took a while, and perhaps in the future you might want to reconsider how incendiary and unclear you want your introductory salvos to be.

You would probably still benefit from considering some of what I've said--I don't think you are entirely off the hook.

But two points to make:

The author of the letter to Dan is not anti-gay (presumably), so while your hypothetical model holds in your hypothetical world, it does not actually deal with the matter at hand. Since this person wasn't anti-gay, Dan has a better chance of working an effect by pointing out that their choices make them complicit in the deaths of children. If you care, Dan is saying, actually do something besides be offended, for fuck's sake. If you care about gay kids dying, maybe your hurt feelings as a "good Christian" shouldn't be top priority. Sorry, good Christian, that you weren't singled out and given a prize. Go and change your religious community's outlook if you want a handshake and a cookie from me.

Second, you are totally correct that bigotry doesn't look like bigotry to the bigoted, but maybe we need to work on turning the less-bigoted or non-bigoted members of primarily bigoted communities into activists for true acceptance...which might be the case here with the letter-writer Dan responded to.

No activism? Well, no gold star, and no sympathy for hurt feelings.
Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 4:16 PM · Report this
171
To all those who think we should be nice to the christians/religious people so as to get them on our side:

The point is not to convince them that homosexuality is good, acceptable or whatever.

The point is to convince them that DISCRIMINATION, for any motive, is absolutely WRONG, no matter what they think about the motive. And the only way it's worked anywhere else is by showing them how it feels to be discriminated against so they get to see how unjust that is, and by saying WE'RE MAD AS HELL AND WE WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE.

Thanks, Dan, for saying WE'RE MAD AS HELL AND WE WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE.
Posted by Ricardo on October 14, 2010 at 4:21 PM · Report this
172
@ 170 - I'm sorry, but the LW is indeed very anti-gay - just happens to be of the polite, hypocritical kind.
Posted by Ricardo on October 14, 2010 at 4:24 PM · Report this
173
@ 170 - Sorry if this gets posted twice, but at the moment my previous post isn't appearing on the thread.

As far as I'm concerned, the LW is indeed very anti-gay, but just happens to be of the polite, hypocritical kind.
Posted by Ricardo on October 14, 2010 at 4:28 PM · Report this
174
To 168,

I agree. But I'm also a strict libertarian who is in favor of the legalization of all drugs, prostitution and really any activity that involves consenting adults.

My point is that most people don't see it that way. A major talking point of the gay rights crowd is that innate desires make acting on those desires moral (or at least not immoral). As a libertarian, frankly I don't care about the moral implications, only whether or not something should be illegal. However, most people do care about the morality of the thing, including the gay community. I was simply trying to say that the aforementioned argument is insufficient in the effort to prove the morality of homosexuality. This is especially pronounced because the gay community is arguing for more than equal rights. I have spoken with many on the matter, and the consensus seems to be that even if there were full legal equality, that would not be enough, and (at least on the marriage question) there will be no rest even if something like universal civil unions are obtained.

So if you think morality is important, you need to come up with something better, or limit your argument to the legal ones only.
Posted by FCCG on October 14, 2010 at 4:32 PM · Report this
175
@ all the cool Christians out there, especially 24/Tschussle, right on. I'm not religious--I left the Catholic church after a nasty childhood situation in which I was expected to conform without questioning--but I respect and admire people who are true to the "love one another" part of Christ's message.
When I first read L.R.'s letter and Dan's response, I thought to myself, "I can see both sides' point". I still can, after reading all the vitriol from extremists on the anti-Christian side and comparing it with the peaceful messages from the Christians.
That said, I applaud Dan for his forceful response--he's right to call hypocrites on their bullshit. However, he should acknowledge that human decency does not depend on religious affiliations--there have been horrible acts committed in the name of God in ALL religions. Ignorance and cruelty feed bigotry, not religion.
Posted by Snarky on October 14, 2010 at 4:40 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 176
@170: Cool, we finally disagree on something of substance.

I think LR is anti-gay. The first paragraph says
I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.
My opinion is that anyone who does not support gay marriage is anti-gay. Forget social acceptance; they still don't think gays are entitled to full legal rights.

So my hypothetical model is applicable here. :)
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 4:46 PM · Report this
177
I was raised by a man who saw gay people as "sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality", but I didn't grow up to be like him.

I agree that anyone who's against gay marriage is bigoted, and it doesn't matter if your religion *supports* your bigotry -- it's STILL bigotry. Sorry.

Also, it's actually REALLY difficult to suffocate someone with a pillow unless that person is in a coma.
Posted by Amanda on October 14, 2010 at 5:12 PM · Report this
178
@165, IHSN

MY personal attacks less effective than usual? But its my first one! Such a critic...

I'll try harder next time.

So now you are saying you DO NOT hold the following personal opinion:

"But I get off the train once it states that we all need to socially accept everyone."

Careful, now. You seem to be shifting your thesis a bit.
Posted by BDNF on October 14, 2010 at 5:20 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 179
@178: I picked those words with care. Do you think we need to socially accept everyone? Or can you think of categories of people you are not required to welcome into your life?
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 5:35 PM · Report this
180
Wie die Alten sprechen, so handeln die Jungen ...
Posted by atbe on October 14, 2010 at 6:03 PM · Report this
181
GO, DAN, GO!!
Your column is the best!!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on October 14, 2010 at 6:26 PM · Report this
182
First, thank you for the chat with the WAPO crowd earlier this week. You are a wonderful advocate and so very passionate about this issue. It is shameful to many of us how this issue continues to be a political cornerstone for people who are "haters." They bring nothing of value for this country. I can only hope that this too shall pass.

Your response above was probably the most powerful argument I have heard in a long time. I, personally, am sick to death of hating in the name of religion, whatever religion that may be. BRAVO, Dan, and thank you. We are your fans and we thank you for saying what we all feel but in a much better way than most of us can express.

Theresa
Posted by tcjane on October 14, 2010 at 6:31 PM · Report this
183
"If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)?"

Still using the old "sexual preference" phrase, eh? Sexual orientation is no more a "preference" than is being right-handed. On the other hand, religionists choose to be religious. They weren't born that way...it was a choice, and continues to be a choice. They could change if they wanted.
Posted by Downtown Phoenix on October 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM · Report this
184
Question all the rich, (or THINK they're rich) corrupt, in-your-face mortals who openly call themselves "God", because they obviously are NOT, while living insanely in the dark.

I wish someone would explain this to my sister, the "we're above the rules" doofus she married, and their pure-as-the-golden-snow son. After 34 years, I'm blue in the face.

Posted by auntie grizelda on October 14, 2010 at 6:41 PM · Report this
185
Actually, there probably ARE gay teens and adults at this person's church. I was one of those teens and then adult--in church, in Christian school and Fundie College. In total repression, but I was there.

My biggest problem is the untruths/lies that are being told by religious people: gays are all pedophiles, gays are a danger to kids, gays will recruit kids/teens/adults into the gay 'lifestyle', gays die young, etc. etc. (Plus, is it logical that the ENTIRE male population of Sodom was gay? Come on, even San Francisco is only 12% gay. And Sodom existed 1,000s of years before the days of mass communication or mass transit, etc.). And they ignore the entire book of Leviticus, except that one verse about gays.
Posted by Christopher B on October 14, 2010 at 6:42 PM · Report this
186
Who's talking about "absolution"? An actual Christian who supports gay rights completely can be vocal and activist AS a Christian, or can abdicate Christianity itself to the bigots. I question both the logic and the intention of people who suggest that the latter is the only noble response.

A friend of mine, a mom of a gay son, protests AT churches, left one domination for another, gets arrested in public acts of civil disobedience with her gay son, and advocates online. Are you really suggesting that it would be better for her - for gay rights or anything else - to make the empty gesture of denouncing "Christianity" per se? I do not.
Posted by Barbara Saunders on October 14, 2010 at 6:43 PM · Report this
187
Okay, I Hate Screen Names. It becomes clear that it is pointless to talk to you, because you will simply define things however you want in order to be "right," (whatever the fuck that even means at this point), and you pick and choose which points to respond to. Overall, your comments are far more worthy of ridicule than earnest debate.

BDNF, I eagerly await your second insult barrage against IHSN.
Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 6:45 PM · Report this
188
Thanks for the response to LR. You put all my thoughts that I've never been able to articulate well enough. I'd love to save this and send it to my mother.... except I stopped talking to that Catholic bitch many years ago. Her initials ain't LR, but otherwise, this sounds a lot like her.
We'll, maybe next time I'm going thru my spam folder and see some rightwing urban legend that she is forwarding because she is sceert to death of what Obama's gonna do, I can have a reply.
Posted by guesttt on October 14, 2010 at 6:45 PM · Report this
189
"If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)?"

Still using the old "sexual preference", eh? Sexual orientation is no more of a "preference" than is being right-handed. However, religionists choose to be religious. No one is born religious...it's a choice. You could change if you wanted to.
Posted by Downtown Phoenix on October 14, 2010 at 6:45 PM · Report this
190
IHSN, no one really agrees with you, and no one thinks you are right, and you are clearly not even consistent or coherent. So please stop trolling the board, and come up with a better way to get your jollies.
Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 6:52 PM · Report this
191
And, finally, IHSN, nothing you are saying is particularly interesting, original, important, or persuasive...So you gotta ask yourself, why do you persist?
Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 6:55 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 192
@187: You made two points that were predicated on LR not being anti-gay. I disagreed and claimed that LR was anti-gay. If that doesn't respond to your points, I don't know what would.

But, whatevs.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 6:58 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 193
@190-191: "Nobody likes you, go away"?

I am a-titter at the irony.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 7:00 PM · Report this
194
Absolutely Dan. Thank you. Christians like the one you replied to have such a sad sense of befuddled entitlement because they cannot connect their hateful words with the hateful deeds they engender. Honestly they do not know. They are too lazy to actually be spiritual - all they know is that they are afraid of what is in their own hearts. All they know are the things they don't know. God bless you Dan.
Posted by MarkEitzel on October 14, 2010 at 7:10 PM · Report this
195
Would someone please give Dan Savage the Pulitzer Prize or something for his answer to the first letter? I feel like one of the universe's missions was just completed with that response said. Dan, I love you forever! XOXO
Posted by small town housewife on October 14, 2010 at 7:16 PM · Report this
196
I can't find divinity in a book written by ancient pencilnecks who found a way to not be productive and still make a living. Divinity is in the soul of each of us - and love is an outgrowth, or a sign of that divinity. It is in the trees, and the rocks, and the stars, and they care not for how we love each other. If someone were to tell you that they wanted your money, or your vote, or your labour, or your force of arms, and in exchange they will tell you how to live, wouldn't you tell them to take a hike? Wouldn't you toss them, Detroit-style, out the door? Take every made thing - why is it sacred to you? It is an object, be it a book of fables and legends, or a chunk of wood, or a sparkly rock...how is it relevant? It is only made relevant by what you yourself have invested in it. It has no intrinsic value. You might as well hold the Brothers Grimm as prophets, or canonize J.R.R. Tolkien, or make offerings to an image of Carl Sagan. Any of these actions make as much sense as venerating the Christian bible and witnessing for Christ. So why do it? None of you proclaimers have one good reason to give your time or your money or your labour to organizations that, at best, imperfectly duplicate the work of state agencies and secular organizations. Abandon it. It does not serve you. Love is not in a barn with a very pointy roof, it is not in a great hall, it is not with the pointy hat brigades, nor is it with the televangelist politicians. It exists nowhere if it does not exist within your own hearts. It doesn't come from a book, or a building, or an organization. It comes from you and only you. Only you can add to its capacity, only you can take it away. No beardy-man in the sky can love you like another human can, nor can he snatch away your ability to love one another. You do yourselves such great harm. You waste all your love on the promise of a greater life after you abandon the rest of humanity - when you can have the best possible one right now by embracing them.
More...
Posted by Stonehammer on October 14, 2010 at 7:18 PM · Report this
197
I can't find divinity in a book written by ancient pencilnecks who found a way to not be productive and still make a living. Divinity is in the soul of each of us - and love is an outgrowth, or a sign of that divinity. It is in the trees, and the rocks, and the stars, and they care not for how we love each other.
If someone were to tell you that they wanted your money, or your vote, or your labour, or your force of arms, and in exchange they will tell you how to live, wouldn't you tell them to take a hike? Wouldn't you toss them, Detroit-style, out the door?
Take every made thing - why is it sacred to you? It is an object, be it a book of fables and legends, or a chunk of wood, or a sparkly rock...how is it relevant? It is only made relevant by what you yourself have invested in it. It has no intrinsic value. You might as well hold the Brothers Grimm as prophets, or canonize J.R.R. Tolkien, or make offerings to an image of Carl Sagan. Any of these actions make as much sense as venerating the Christian bible and witnessing for Christ.
So, why do it? None of you proclaimers have one good reason to give your time or your money or your labour to organizations that, at best, imperfectly duplicate the work of state agencies and secular organizations. Abandon it. It does not serve you.
Love is not in a barn with a very pointy roof, it is not in a great hall, it is not with the pointy hat brigades, nor is it with the televangelist politicians. It exists nowhere if it does not exist within your own hearts. It doesn't come from a book, or a building, or an organization. It comes from you and only you. Only you can add to its capacity, only you can take it away.
No beardy-man in the sky can love you like another human can, nor can he snatch away your ability to love one another. You do yourselves such great harm. You waste all your love on the promise of a greater life after you abandon the rest of humanity - when you can have the best possible one right now by embracing them.
More...
Posted by Stonehammer on October 14, 2010 at 7:23 PM · Report this
El Bruce 198
It is possible to breathe through a pillow that's being held down firmly enough to muffle but not firmly enough to asphyxiate.
Posted by El Bruce on October 14, 2010 at 7:32 PM · Report this
199
OK...having read almost 200 comments ... we all agree that something has to be done about bullying and suicides of teens. Arguing about semantics is actually what the Radical religious want us to do. While we argue terms they spread more hate. We need to Grow UP and stop worrying about how we say things and GET OFF OUR ASSES AN DO SOMETHING!! Congratulations to Dan for having the guts to get some attention to this problem.
Posted by teddytoy on October 14, 2010 at 8:06 PM · Report this
200
@179, IHSN

Your question was, "Do you think we need to socially accept everyone?"

A: A qualified yes. As long as the person in question does not go out of their way to ridicule or do harm to others in public or behind their backs... yes! One might be attracted to thin people, but should invite the heavier to lunch or parties or social functions. One might prefer darker skinned mates, but should also be able to enjoy happy hour with the pale. One might have a large amount of wealth, but not be ashamed to go with a less-advantaged friend to a blue-collar bar. One might be athletic, but sit down and play chess with someone who had unfortunate experiences in dodge-ball. You should be able to converse with construction workers as easily as you do a Ph.D.

The question is, IHSN, would you invite overweight Canadian Jane to your party?

To address another of your points:

"Everyone makes social choices, kids will always bully, and the way to stop bullycide is to teach kids how to behave like decent human beings, not to teach them to love everyone equally."

The two strategies that I see are:

1) Teach children, maybe not to love, but to RESPECT everyone equally, unless those in question are doing harm to others.

or

2) Have a mechanism in place to nail some little bastard to the wall if they EVER raise a hand to another child, or ridicule them in public because of some perceived difference. NAILED. TO. THE. DAMN. WALL.

Which do you think will be more effective in the long-run?

You take a kid who on one hand hears at home how gay are "unnatural" and gay marriage will crack the earth in two...and yeah, and then the parent may say, "child of mine, be nice to everyone." What message will be carried to school to later be turned in to vicious action?

Geez, you will tell them not to drink or trade pills at school... guess what they do at school?

Teaching respect for others starts very, very early.

Umm... um... I have no personal attacks... can't come up with any.
More...
Posted by BDNF on October 14, 2010 at 8:12 PM · Report this
201
@199

Great Jeebus! You're right! WE ALWAYS DO THIS!

*Facepalm*

IHSN-- WE/You/I have work to do.

Kids are killing themselves.
Posted by BDNF on October 14, 2010 at 8:19 PM · Report this
202
OK after reading over 200 comments here ... we need to agree on one thing. We need to do something about bullying and teen suicides. The comments here have done exactly what the anti-gay movement wants us do do. As always, we end up arguing semantics till everyone looses interest. THE ISSUE IS BULLYING AND SUICIDE. We need to get off our asses and DO SOMEHING NOW! It doesnt matter what you look like or think..what matters are KIDS DYING!
Congratulations to DAN for getting involved!
Posted by teddytoy on October 14, 2010 at 8:32 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 203
@200: Is overweight Canadian Jane smart, funny, etc.? Then yes. If I'm not fucking someone, I don't give a crap what they look like. All I care about is whether they are fun to be around and whether they treat me and other people decently.

But I don't think I'm obligated to have that approach. If fundamentalist Christians really get under my skin (and they actually don't-- my little sister is an evangelical), then I think it's OK to remove myself from situations involving fundamentalist Christians. From the very many anti-religious comments on this thread, I do not think this is a controversial opinion.

As to your two strategies, I agree with (1) completely, and I agree with the first part of (2) as it relates to assaults. I'm unwilling to nail a kid to the wall for verbal comments, at least the first time. I would definitely intervene in the event of a pattern of verbal abuse, though.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 8:32 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 204
@200: Is overweight Canadian Jane smart, funny, etc.? Then yes. If I'm not fucking someone, I don't give a crap what they look like. All I care about is whether they are fun to be around and whether they treat me and other people decently.

But I don't think I'm obligated to have that approach. If fundamentalist Christians really get under my skin (and they actually don't-- my little sister is an evangelical), then I think it's OK to remove myself from situations involving fundamentalist Christians. From the very many anti-religious comments on this thread, I do not think this is a controversial opinion.

As to your two strategies, I agree with (1) completely, and I agree with the first part of (2) as it relates to assaults. I'm unwilling to nail a kid to the wall for verbal comments, at least the first time. I would definitely intervene in the event of a pattern of verbal abuse, though.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 8:35 PM · Report this
205
It seems absurd that I have to make a post about how great you are.
I mean you only state the obvious.
Do you get paid for that?

Remarkably though, you seem to have few competitors.

It is so important to try to shake and wake up the "good" Christian people who tell gay children implicitly that they are dishonorable.
PC language can't obscure that.
And some children choose death because of what these "good" Christian people tell us and their children.

Thanks again Dan for stating the obvious.

Posted by DanVan on October 14, 2010 at 8:38 PM · Report this
206
Everyone covered this very nicely. If IHSN still feels like their points remain valid, someone ought to feel free to pore over their text and find all of the inconsistencies in logic and redefinitions of the debate, and lay them kindly out for IHSN.

If, that is, they think IHSN isn't a troll and is open to reason (questionable items, both).

I feel myself that I have already given more than too much energy and time to this juvenile vampire-troll.
Posted by idiots_suck on October 14, 2010 at 8:44 PM · Report this
207
I agree, Dan. It is high fucking time that we stop feeling like we have to play nice with bigots. I'm so tired of people for whom I've voted bending over backward to make "people of faith" feel OK with the gays. As a gay man who recently moved from Utah to Olympia, I can tell you that the problem is even worse there. So many open minded people there trick themselves into believing that they are somehow above it all by accepting the ignorance of their neighbors. They say, "We should respect their religion, and we should never be caught in a situation where we are challenging their beliefs." BULLSHIT. It's time for people with REAL and TRUE morals to stand up and STOP BEING NICE TO BIGOTS. Tell them that they are wrong. Tell them that their children will be baffled top hear their views in 10 years. Tell them that it is absolutely WRONG, even from a Christian perspective, to judge people as they do. Be MILITANT! Why is is OK for other minorities to aggressively pursue their cause, but not us?!?!
Posted by Kykopho on October 14, 2010 at 8:46 PM · Report this
208
Hey Dan - LOVE the column. Want an additional BF??
Posted by HairyRunner on October 14, 2010 at 9:47 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 209
@201: You're right. We always sit around and pontificate on bullshit. Well fuck that: I just donated $100 to the Trevor Project. Anyone else with me?

I'm not saying throwing money at the problem is the solution. But it's a good deal more useful than my postings today. :)
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on October 14, 2010 at 9:47 PM · Report this
210
Hey Dan - great column. Do you want an additional BF?
Posted by HairyRunner on October 14, 2010 at 9:53 PM · Report this
211
just because someone SAYS they are a christian, flies their christian banner and invokes the name of their lord, jesus christ,

DOES

NOT

MEAN

THEY

ARE

R E A L L Y

CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

seriously. f'd up power hungry misanthropes use any excuse that works to justify their power. and what "source" of power could be more all-encompasing than the source of EVERYTHING!?!?

don't be blinded.

the historical person of jesus is believed by faithful and non-believers alike to have actually lived... and he said "you will know them by their fruits." matthew 7:16

if you aren't familiar with this bible passage, i suggest you google it... and you will find out what christianity ACTUALLY says about how you can tell a christian from "other people." (wink) this passage is what christians have been told by jesus himself about false prophets who are wolves in sheep's clothing, pretending to be christians while, all the while, sowing evil in the world.

if they were christians, they would speak compassionately to those they thought were lost.

just saying.
Posted by a gay friendly, CHRISTIAN, savage love fan on October 14, 2010 at 10:05 PM · Report this
212
@151: Dude, midget is not the preferred nomenclature. Little person or person of short stature, please.
Posted by Tall in the family on October 14, 2010 at 10:34 PM · Report this
213
@209; IHSN

I will match that.

Any others?

Let's leave our intellectual Rubik's Cubes at the coffee shops..'kay?
Posted by BDNF on October 14, 2010 at 10:44 PM · Report this
214
I think we need to clear up the definition of Homophobia. Homo refers to an individual who is attracted to the same sex and Phobia is defined in the dictionary as "An irrational, intense, and persistent fear". Wiki explains Homophobia as "a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, and in some cases transgender and intersex people", no doubt in response to a certain fear, which is different for all haters. However, by definition, hating gay people for who they are because you were told they are wrong is blind and utter prejudice, not Homophobia, and not backed by any actual fact. It's really no different from someone who hates black people, or another who hates fat people. There are distinguishable facts to be considered.

Believing that gay marriage is wrong because it threatens family life is Homophobia. Believing that gay people are the cause of AIDS is Homophobia. Believing that the guy next door you slept with last night will turn you gay is Homophobia. This isn't in any actual response to anyone here, I just felt like that term is thrown around too lightly. Homophobia is an extreme, prejudice is what most people feel towards gay people.
Posted by Yoshi on October 14, 2010 at 10:52 PM · Report this
215
@ 137: While i'm at it I might as well define what Religion means.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/r…

Read 2 and 3. Following a religion means you believe in the practices and morals of it's rules. I laugh out FUCKING loud at people who claim to be "non-practicing Christian" or any other religion. What is that suppose to mean? Ok, so you believe in God but you don't agree with Christianity...that is possible, but that also means you're not Christian, and claiming to be so is contradicting and hypocritical in your faith.

For this I turn to the definition of Agnosticism, which can be summed and stupefied into the following sentence: Someone who believes in the higher power but the inability to truly understand it. IE, they disagree with religion, but agree in the maker.
Posted by Yoshi on October 14, 2010 at 10:55 PM · Report this
216
I've found that there's a large portion of the christian population that's simply hung up on semantics.

They can't get past the word marriage. It's defined in their head as one man one woman, and has connotations of the sacred and the church. It's been one of the basic assumptions of our culture for centuries.

Ask someone you know that is a christian and against gay marriage a simple question; should gays be allowed partnership rights in hospitals when one partner is sick or dying?

If they have a shred of human compassion, they will say of course. The ones that disagree are your tried and true bigots and may be safely clubbed.

Pretty much the same question can be phrased about every other aspect of civil rights in regard to marriage, e.i. inheritance, joint property, taxes, etc, with the same result.

I'm of the opinion that if they gay rights movement had started out demanding "partnership rights" or "civil unions" or really anything besides "gay marriage", it would have gotten national acceptance five or ten years ago.
Posted by Midas on October 14, 2010 at 11:46 PM · Report this
217
I've found that there's a large portion of the christian population that's simply hung up on semantics.

They can't get past the word marriage. It's defined in their head as one man one woman, and has connotations of the sacred and the church. It's been one of the basic assumptions of our culture for centuries.

Ask someone you know that is a christian and against gay marriage a simple question; should gays be allowed partnership rights in hospitals when one partner is sick or dying?

If they have a shred of human compassion, they will say of course. The ones that disagree are your tried and true bigots and may be safely clubbed.

Pretty much the same question can be phrased about every other aspect of civil rights in regard to marriage, e.i. inheritance, joint property, taxes, etc, with the same result.

I'm of the opinion that if they gay rights movement had started out demanding "partnership rights" or "civil unions" or really anything besides "gay marriage", it would have gotten national acceptance five or ten years ago.
Posted by Midas on October 14, 2010 at 11:57 PM · Report this
218
I fully agree purveyor of savage love. The writer of the letter may have aspirations to be a good christian soul but you have called them out on the reality of their world view and the kind of hatred it spawns.

They deny the right of other people to be different and equal.

With the arrogance of those that think fro their limited human perspective that they know best.

And yes that spawns the lack of empathy, the holstility and the murder. Ultimately thats what it does.

Cheers, A
Posted by Anya336 on October 15, 2010 at 1:22 AM · Report this
219
Dan--Re: our old friend,the homosexual agenda. Where's my copy? I mailed you people the box tops!
Posted by RLT on October 15, 2010 at 2:10 AM · Report this
220
Bravo Dan! I literally stood and cheered in my kitchen on reading your first reply. Saving it for not-too-distant future and sadly-all-too-frequent use. Very well said.

And moreover, it's not just the gay and lesbian children who suffer, but all children the self-roghteous bullies perceive as perhaps being gay or lesbian, or even just different enough in some other way (e.g. too weird, too fat, too smart, too agnostic/atheistic/Jewish etc.) to harass into suicidality. I've known plenty of them too.
Posted by SamNYC on October 15, 2010 at 2:36 AM · Report this
221
Hey Kudos to Dan for his fight against bullying.
Will it have an effect on bullying?
Yes, for a while.
Until the backlash happens,
So much of what he said, like if you are against gay marriage, you are for bullying, or the unconscious cause of bullying, is just not true.

First, he seems just of guilty as his writer as turning people into abstracts. The children of Christians turn into hateful little monsters. ..
The gay teens who are innocent victims of that hate...
Are not many gays teens bullies themselves?
Are not many children of Christians victims of bullying?

And, when the furor settles down and people start to look around and realize that the modern view on homosexuality is based on a falsehood. That gay men and women are born that way. True that we are all born with basic instincts and in some people those instincts may lead to an attraction to the same sex. But gay identity, and gay activity and gay relationships are a combination of culture, social norms, upbringing, experience, etc. And of course this is true of everyone not just gay people. There really is no such thing as a gay person, just a person that has a certain pattern of behavior. Gay identity is a useful falsehood, but useful none the less.

The basic fact is that men and women are different, these differences are due to billions of years of evolution, and that only sex between a man and woman can make babies and perpetuate the human race. Which is no small feat.

And the fact that a relationship between two men or two women is just different than that between a man and a woman. Is the relationship less than, no. Most gay couples I know are stronger than the average heterosexual couple because the relationship is based solely on choice not on societal norms and on a personal affinity for each other, not as a basis for child rearing. Maybe they just realize they have to work on it harder. But I also know a lot of middle-aged gay men who have frequent anonymous sex with strangers and I am pretty sure that the average heterosexual man of the same age is not doing the same thing.

This whole thing of thinking that homosexuality is just about changing the pronoun, of changing 'he' to 'she' or vice versa, is just wrong. It is a lie.

That said, I am not against gay marriage. I think it is a useful experiment. But it won't change the face that marriage will always be traditionally between a man and a woman and the anything else will be an unusual alternative. I wish there was a way to recognize committed gay relationships without using the word "marriage" or 'husband' or 'wife.' we need a new word altogether. Some way to recognize gays unique contribution to civilization and to each other.

(Really it is marriage that is the problem. It should just be gotten rid of entirely. From now on marriage is forbidden to everyone...)

I wish there was a way to battle the intrinsic hate and homophobia of Christians without creating other falsehoods. Without having to call anyone who questions or does not support gay marriage a bigot. Maybe not. But I am 100% sure that kindness and compassion is ultimately the only solution.
More...
Posted by tgsinmd on October 15, 2010 at 3:36 AM · Report this
222
(I didn't realize you had to register first to have your comments show up. Pardon for the duplication)
Hey Kudos to Dan for his fight against bullying. I really mean that
I really think it have an effect on bullying at least for a while.
Until the backlash happens.

So much of what he said, like if you are against gay marriage, you are for bullying, or the unconscious cause of bullying, is just not true. And unless something is true, ultimately it will not have a lasting effect.

First, he seems just of guilty as his writer as turning people into abstracts.
That children of Christians turn into hateful little monsters. ..
That gay teens who are innocent victims of that hate...
Are not many gays teens bullies themselves?
Are not many children of Christians victims of bullying?

And, when the furor around marriage and gay rights settles down, people start to look around and realize that the modern view on homosexuality is based on a falsehood: That gay men and women are born that way. True that we are all born with basic instincts and in some people those instincts may lead to an attraction to the same sex. But gay identity, gay activity, and gay relationships are a combination of instinct and culture, social norms, upbringing, and personal experience. Of course this is true of everyone not just gay people. There really is no such thing as a gay person, just a person that has a certain pattern of behavior. Gay identity is a useful falsehood, but useful none the less.

The basic fact is that men and women are different, these differences are due to billions of years of evolution. Only sex between a man and woman can make babies and perpetuate the human race. Which is no small feat.

And the fact that a relationship between two men or two women is just different than that between a man and a woman. Is the relationship less than, no. Most gay couples I know are stronger than the average heterosexual couple because the relationship is based solely on choice not on societal norms and on a personal affinity for each other, not as a basis for child rearing. Maybe they just realize they have to work on it harder. But I also know a lot of middle-aged gay men who have frequent anonymous sex with strangers and I am pretty sure that the average heterosexual man of the same age is not doing the same thing.

This whole thing of thinking that homosexuality is just about changing the pronoun, of changing 'he' to 'she' or vice versa, is just wrong. It is a lie.

That said, I am not against gay marriage. I think it is a useful experiment. But it won't change the face that marriage will always be traditionally between a man and a woman and that anything else will be an unusual alternative. I wish there was a way to recognize committed gay relationships without using the word "marriage" or 'husband' or 'wife.' we need a new word altogether. Some way to recognize gays unique contribution to civilization and to each other.

(Really it is marriage that is the problem. It should just be gotten rid of entirely. From now on marriage is forbidden to everyone...)

I wish there was a way to battle the hate and homophobia of Christians without creating other falsehoods. Without having to call anyone who questions or does not support gay marriage a bigot. Maybe not. But I am 100% sure that kindness and compassion is ultimately the only solution.
More...
Posted by tgsinmd on October 15, 2010 at 3:46 AM · Report this
223
@BlackRose. I'm an atheist bleeding heart liberal and totally agree with you on a conceptual level.

However, it has been proven time and time again that Christians are more likely to give to charity and volunteer in international aid. Church donations from around the world have funded desperately needed hospitals and medical supplies in third world nations. For every gay teen who commits suicide from bullying, there are thousands of people in the world who are living and breathing only thanks to the tithe that Christians are obligated to give (10% of income).

Christians need to be more consistent with their so-called compassion, but I do think it's unfair to say there are no "good" Christians. I've met Christians up to their knees in sewage trying to build a plumbing system for a village dying of malaria and dysentery. They did not believe in marriage equality...but can we really say they are bad? Is it that black and white?

Posted by krh6626 on October 15, 2010 at 4:21 AM · Report this
224
Gay as gay can be, but love to watch me some T-gurl porn. Fantasize about getting fucked by a chick-with-dick.
Posted by gaydem on October 15, 2010 at 5:22 AM · Report this
225
Dan, I'm frustrated because I reposted that letter yesterday on my FB page and now it's been deleted, but that's not your problem. It's Big Brother again..watching..anyway, In my post I asked that if somehow you had seen my letter, that I wish you would write that same (but even harsher) letter to Tom Prichard, the president of the Minnesota Family Council who for years has vilified the glbt community. He just oozes evil and sadly, years ago we used to be good friends.
I did appreciate what you said in response to the woman who was hurt by your words. I think I understood where she was coming from because I happen to be christian and also gay, but I've chosen to be involved in churches that are reconciled congregations who are welcoming of everyone including glbt individuals. Just to clarify, I think that there are Christian communities who truly do their best to act in a "christ-like" way and not let those in the upper hierarchy of the bigger church influence their individual churches. That being said, I think that too many people think that this is some sort of new phenomenon, this horrific bullying and suicides, but sadly it's been happening forever and sadly, what we see in the news is just the tip of the iceberg. I think a huge issue that stands before us is the government not realizing that "don't ask don't tell" really institutionalizes the mentality that gays can't be trusted, that we can't be in a locker room with another man without jumping their bones, that we aren't worthy enough to serve the country in this way. That lack of serious action on the part of this administration fuels the bullying and the whole "locker room" attitude. Bullying of our young people in schools and clubs completes it's circle in the military and in the government. And it will continue and continue.
Sad but true.
More...
Posted by sberg1961 on October 15, 2010 at 6:06 AM · Report this
226
"Magic sky friend jesus cry..."
LOVE IT Savage! i'm totally stealing that one.
thank you.
Posted by You ANON on October 15, 2010 at 7:37 AM · Report this
227
@128- Capricorn44- Its interesting how people only hear half the message. "Love your neighbor as yourself" and the Prodigal son particularly. -You cant love your neighbor until you love yourself- if you hate yourself, that is what you will do to others. I heard a priest say "you and I arent the Prodigal Son. We arent that BAD. Jesus message was for two groups- the ones who were oppressed by hatred, and those doing the hating. For the second group, the model was the elder brother. He thought he was better than the younger brother. He therefore, exempted himself from the banquet, i.e. heavan, because he couldnt believe that his Father would except the outcast. There few calling themselves Christian who embrace this core message of the man they claim to follow- prefering to dwell on his martyrdom.
Posted by Agelena on October 15, 2010 at 7:38 AM · Report this
228
I fell out of my chair this morning with your response!!!! ROCK THE FUCK ON--- MY HERO:)
-SAVAGE LOVE
Posted by lolafunn17 on October 15, 2010 at 9:00 AM · Report this
229
A Slam Poem---It gets Better ( Tera McIntosh)

Dear Tyler.
Nobody told you before…
but thing’s won’t always be so great
We’ve managed to abolish slavery----
but still harvest fresh grown hate
Right here in our own backyard, it exist
I just stepped on some right around the corner
And I am hoping with these words---
I might Weed out some of the rest…
because these shoes are tired--- of stepping in it.


It’s not always gonna be so great….
But don’t give up
-roll up your tolerant sleeves
And…..show your intellectual fists
flex the muscles of your mind
And beat them with proof and pride

Your stronger then the monsters of their mind
Don’t let them take you back to the underground hide yourself times
Full of pink triangles, labels, and separate lunch lines
Hang on Tyler, I promise
It gets better this time

Don’t feed societies dreams
Let who you are bust from your seams
On to others that love you just as you are
On to others that have hung pictures of you on
The walls of their hearts.


And for those others…the haterrrrs
Take their words and trap them in a jar
And make sure you tighten the lid
Because words can’t escape and sting you
If you don’t let them

And if that doesn’t work

Build a damn within your voice
that blocks the flooding emotions
From your mind to your heart
That makes you want to say I give up—
-cause enough is enough


Don’t give up ----even when enough has had
Enough of enough
And you feel like the weakest--- in the world of the tough
Take a breathe that starts from the heart of your heart
And remember how far you’ve come from the start
Of the start of who you really are now.


Don’t let them win
Fight hard—paper beats rock again and again.
Fight through the early cold morning why’s
And the late night solo questioning cries
And be you---let your rays shine through onto others
And soon you will be speaking
And educating kids who were just--------- like---- you.

And when night falls and you feel
Lost in the abnormal herd of different kind
Remember that in the early morning wake
You will still be everything you’ve always wanted to be
And that’s enough.

Don’t let people say we’re not the same
Because the last time I loved
I still loved as hard as they do
Harder then the square root of you
Harder then goodbye for the last time
Harder then jamming out in to my favorite rhyme
While the person over in the next lane
Just smiles at me and drives on thru.
Because she can’t tag my differences
From her sunglasses view.

And when they say we are just the same
Show them the holes in your socks
That have traveled the loneliest nights with you
Show them that you bleed and sneeze
You laugh and scream
And you love and dream
Dream that you’ll be treated the same
One day from someones heart of their heart.



Don’t let middle school whispers echo
Into the confined, conformed, lockers of your mind
and build up hallways of fear
that separate who you are and
who others want you to be.


And those words they say about you
Stack them up in a perfect row
And climb them one by one
And soon you will be standing at the top
Stronger then everyone below---
Because tough times--- make us grow---------------
As strong as the writings on the legal pad
Of our mind that spells out proudly—
WHO I AM IS FINE.

And remember
If I can stand here today, so can you.
It gets better---it did for me…
and it will for you.

Yours in Change,
Tera
More...
Posted by tmacn21 on October 15, 2010 at 9:17 AM · Report this
230
I think Kurt Vonnegut said it best:

"She was a fool, and so am I, and so is anyone who thinks he sees what God is doing." (Cat's Cradle)
Posted by Ricardo on October 15, 2010 at 9:44 AM · Report this
muggims 231
My magic sky friend can beat up your magic sky friend!
Posted by muggims on October 15, 2010 at 9:52 AM · Report this
232
...Hate... @151

THIS is how parents are partially to blame for what their children think:

First, My Mommy and Daddy told me that “Everyone is not entitled to the same level of social acceptance”. This means that, because I don’t like you or “your kind”, I don’t have to talk to you or socialize with you or be near you in any way. So even though I am in school, and I am forced to coexist with you in the same social sphere for 6-8 hours a day, I have the right to completely ignore you and treat you like you don’t exist. Mommy and Daddy also told me to be courteous, so maybe I’ll smile when I do it.

Second, I cannot be rude to you or bully you so I cannot push you down a flight of stairs, but I also don’t have to see you as my equal because I am so much better than you. People are not all social equals and clearly you are a bad person, even if you still have the same rights. I will still smile at you though, even though I totally avoid the dregs of society (you) and only hang out with the socially superior people of “my own” group.

Third, many people say that the bible says that you should die for being who you are. My parents don’t like you; they have told me so. They don’t want me socializing with people like you. My church does not like you; it has told me so. It does not want me becoming a person like you. They say that I do not have to be next to people like you, but I am forced to when I am in school. School makes me do something my parents do not like. It makes me do something my church does not like. Why do they have to be in the same school as normal people? Mommy and Daddy say that I should not have to be in the same room as them, but they are already here; I don’t like that. I don’t like them.
Mommy and Daddy say that that is OK, as long as I don’t want them to die…
even though some people say that the bible does.

Thus, Mommy and Daddy say that I have to treat everyone equally.
Mommy and Daddy also say that you do not have to accept have to accept everyone, because not everyone is my social equal.
Why do they get the same things as I do when they are not the same as me? Why do they get the same things when they are not as good as me? Why do they get equal treatment when we are not equal?
I do not have to be their friend. Maybe if I ignore them and never be their friend or be friendly to them they will just go away.
Maybe they will feel that they should not be here,
at this school,
in this town,
on this earth
More...
Posted by you on October 15, 2010 at 10:37 AM · Report this
233
I'm adding my voice chorus - Dan, you are an articulate, inspiring, and passionate voice speaking out with morality and logic for all of us homos and queers. Thank you.
Posted by .D.D.D.D. on October 15, 2010 at 11:20 AM · Report this
234
I think you and L.R. are talking past each other. I think you may both be right.

Among the panoply of gay issues, gay marriage in particular is complex. Historically, marriage is a religious concept. It gets complicated because both common law and statutory law have built both social and legal institutions around marriage, and in particular at times in history when marriage was commonly seen as a religious concept. This means we have a religious concept that has taken on legal dimensions, in spite of the First Amendment. In this context, it would appear that the legal dimensions may be unlawful under our Constitution. As such, DOMA can be seen as a preventative attempt to try to preserve the legal side from what may be an inevitable challenge. The irony is that rather than extending marriage to gays, such a challenge could destroy it for everyone. Hence, a reasonable approach would be to maintain marriage as beetween a man and a woman, and "reassemble" the legal institutions in a manner more consonant with the Constitution and in a way that extends equal rights to everyone--straight, gay, or whatever--without improperly infringing upon constitutionally protected religious rights.

Not all religious people oppose gay marriage. Not all gays support gay marriage--as one of my dear gay friends once said, "marriage is a straight thing." The proportions of each are probably irrelevant: reasonable and intelligent people have different views here. Athiests can support fundamentalists' views to protect a religious concept. Fundamentalists can support gays' access to non-religious social constructs. But the ignorant thing is for liberal gays to keep shoving it down the throats of people who believe it is an infringement upon their legitimate and legally protected beliefs, claiming it as a "right," rather than forging a solution that preserves everyone's rights.

And it is clear to most of your readers that you are not an independent-minded voter, with repeated suggestions that conservative politicians are categorically the enemy of your social objectives for our society, accompanied by attacks on Republican (but not Democrat) politicians who promote actively policies you think may be opposed to your own interests. This implies that you, like most people at the HRC National Celebration last week who applauded guest speaker Valerie Jarrett, blindly support Democrats in a world where Log Cabin Republicans worked to throw out DADT and the Democrat administration--led by a president on the record as opposing gay marriage--is appealing it. The reality is that the politics are just as complex--many Republicans, even conservative ones, support gay rights and many Democrats, even liberal ones, oppose them. Moreover, you should join some Republican gays that are open to the possibility that Democrats merely pander to the gay community without action or solutions, while Republicans may be the best hope for finding a constitutional and practical way to get gays the equality they deserve.
More...
Posted by dbartramr on October 15, 2010 at 12:25 PM · Report this
235
I think you and L.R. are talking past each other. I think you may both be right.

Among the panoply of gay issues, gay marriage in particular is complex. Historically, marriage is a religious concept. It gets complicated because both common law and statutory law have built both social and legal institutions around marriage, and in particular at times in history when marriage was commonly seen as a religious concept. This means we have a religious concept that has taken on legal dimensions, in spite of the First Amendment. In this context, it would appear that the legal dimensions may be unlawful under our Constitution. As such, DOMA can be seen as a preventative attempt to try to preserve the legal side from what may be an inevitable challenge. The irony is that rather than extending marriage to gays, such a challenge could destroy it for everyone. Hence, a reasonable approach would be to maintain marriage as beetween a man and a woman, and "reassemble" the legal institutions in a manner more consonant with the Constitution and in a way that extends equal rights to everyone--straight, gay, or whatever--without improperly infringing upon constitutionally protected religious rights.

Not all religious people oppose gay marriage. Not all gays support gay marriage--as one of my dear gay friends once said, "marriage is a straight thing." The proportions of each are probably irrelevant: reasonable and intelligent people have different views here. Athiests can support fundamentalists' views to protect a religious concept. Fundamentalists can support gays' access to non-religious social constructs. But the ignorant thing is for liberal gays to keep shoving it down the throats of people who believe it is an infringement upon their legitimate and legally protected beliefs, claiming it as a "right," rather than forging a solution that preserves everyone's rights.

And it is clear to most of your readers that you are not an independent-minded voter, with repeated suggestions that conservative politicians are categorically the enemy of your social objectives for our society, accompanied by attacks on Republican (but not Democrat) politicians who promote actively policies you think may be opposed to your own interests. This implies that you, like most people at the HRC National Celebration last week who applauded guest speaker Valerie Jarrett, blindly support Democrats in a world where Log Cabin Republicans worked to throw out DADT and the Democrat administration--led by a president on the record as opposing gay marriage--is appealing it. The reality is that the politics are just as complex--many Republicans, even conservative ones, support gay rights and many Democrats, even liberal ones, oppose them. Moreover, you should join some Republican gays that are open to the possibility that Democrats merely pander to the gay community without action or solutions, while Republicans may be the best hope for finding a constitutional and practical way to get gays the equality they deserve.
More...
Posted by dbartramr on October 15, 2010 at 12:27 PM · Report this
236
Dan's nailed it. These kind folk want to believe they are good people because they don't promote hate. Problem is they promote hate and bullying silently with their silence. Christian kids get the hate messages even without their parents being the delivery persons.

Dan's words are so fun to read, but don't just read what Dan says, reach out and volunteer with school kids. If you don't, some Christan mom, with an empty nest and closed mind is gonna be volunteering without anyone to keep her in check.
Posted by lilbaby103 on October 15, 2010 at 12:27 PM · Report this
237
@ 196: Stonehammer, whoever you are, I love you.
Posted by small town housewife on October 15, 2010 at 12:34 PM · Report this
238
"magic sky friend"

heh, heh. That's my new favorite.

@196 I, too, love you.
Posted by timmyweb on October 15, 2010 at 1:09 PM · Report this
239
Vomit. I find your response hateful. Stop trying to make christians change their beliefs. Just because someone doesn't believe in gay marriage, or has their views on homosexuality does in no way shape or form mean they engage in the acts you refer to in your response - Talk about hate. Wow. Just like you or anyone else has the right not believe in someones religion or lifestyle or have views on someones choices or opinions doesn't automatically mean they spew dehumanizing words or spread hate and essentially degrade someones self worth because of it. Come on- The whole response was COMICALLY hypocritical. You want to spread love ? Try using a different tactic..The bitterness and rage isn't working. And I'm sorry that in your experience every Christian has been as evil as you describe them. Thats sad.
Posted by Bad day to be a christian I guess on October 15, 2010 at 1:24 PM · Report this
240
Why do you only focus on the gay boys who have committed suicide recently? Do the lesbians not count? Typical gay male narcissism I suppose.
www.queerty.com/suicide-lesbian-howard-u…;;
Posted by McMonster on October 15, 2010 at 1:28 PM · Report this
241
has anyone forgotten that teens have been committing suicide for a long time now, regardless of sexual orientation ! society really sucks sometimes
Posted by johnjohn on October 15, 2010 at 2:06 PM · Report this
242
@239 - There was a time when people "just agreed with slavery" or "just thought whites were better than blacks, that's all."

My parents are nice as pie to every black person they meet. But as soon as we were home it was "nigger this, nigger that."

Dan is angry; YOU are hateful. Your bible tells you so.
Posted by krh6626 on October 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM · Report this
243
Ok … we are off on another tangent again and off the subject. KIDS DYING! All most of us do is sit back and blame the other guy. I am not defending the religious bigots by any means. I am saying look in the mirror first. When was the last time you saw a queeny guy walking and shrugged in disgust mumbling “lil fag” or saw a young girl with short hair and denims and thought “dyke” ??? The anti-gay movement wins every time you do that. Until the gay community unites and stops arguing semantics more Kids and adults will die … and if you aren’t doing something positive to help… you are just as guilty of murder as their church and parents.
There are several ‘online’ groups trying to help. We used to have a worldwide voice of gays in MCC which has been mysteriously silent recently. Groups like the Trevor Project and the Matthew Sheppard Foundation are trying to reach out but are limited by finances and overall lack of support from the gay community. I got involved more than 20 years ago when I took in a young guy who had been abandoned by his ‘christian’ parents. This problem is not new just more open. He and I tried to start something then to help but met more resistance than you can imagine, mostly from our own community. “I can’t come out now” “I can’t be bothered now” “it’s not my problem” Ever say that? If so.. You contributed to a death. Sound harsh? Think about the kids that die. So far … 2 out of over 200 have made any type of effort to help. Not a very good average but typical. And that is why we are losing to them.
Posted by teddytoy on October 15, 2010 at 2:36 PM · Report this
244
Let us point out that North America, Christianity is THE religion. Yes, there are other religions out there, but they are in the minority. What does this mean? Christians don't need a pat on the back for being tolerant, anymore than white males need a pat on the back for being supportive of gender and racial equality despite their white maleness (and I'm a white male). It's just common decency, and just because a large chunk of your group doesn't believe in it doesn't mean you deserve a cookie for embracing the rest of the human race. Christians have the most power and influence. They have the most numbers. I think most everyone knows and accepts that not all Christians are raving lunatic bigots, because that would mean that a huge portion of Americans are raving lunatic bigots (and I certainly hope that isn't the case). Christianity doesn't need to be DEFENDED, let alone by the people it persecutes, because the majority of society looks approvingly on Christianity, to the point that atheist political candidates are in deep trouble. Christianity is the accepted norm - it needs no particular defense given to it. The whole idea that it does smacks of the evangelical delusion that Christians are a persecuted minority today just as they were during the early days of Romans and lions.

People like LR seem to believe that by denying gay people human rights, but drawing the line at stoning them or other violence, they are not bigots. Let us get this straight: If you believe in denying someone human rights, you are saying they are less deserving somehow - implicitly, that they are less human than those who deserve the rights. You can say you hate the sin and not the sinner, but no matter how you phrase it, you are still saying "this person deserves less than me unless they become like me, thus more human/good/sinless/whatever."

If you believe that all people are sinners and gayness is just another sin, you are still putting it in a special "more eviler" category by denying gay people the right to marry - what other groups are you denying the right to marry based on sin quotient? Shouldn't adulterers (which, by the old biblical definition, includes anyone who had sex before marriage) also be denied the right to marry? Shouldn't people who have lust in their heart be denied the right to marry? Atheists and other heretics? People like LR love to point out that we're all sinners, but they still have a special kind of judgment reserved for gay people that allows them the excuse to deny a right which they tend to believe all other human beings deserve, regardless of the variety of sin.

And to the "good Christians" who do believe in gay marriage and whine that they still don't get enough credit - what have you actually done? Do you just write in to whine at Dan because it's safe, anonymous and he can't excommunicate you? Or do you actually speak out where it matters - at the bigots in your own community who you say give you a bad name? You complain that it's just the vocal minority making you look bad - how come more of you aren't being vocal within your own religion, letting it know you aren't interested in a religion of hate? Kudos to the Quaker whose group isn't performing marriages anymore. But to the person who said peace and tolerance just isn't as vocal - right, I suggest you look into MLK and Gandhi. It's not that peace and tolerance can't be more visible. It's that you are CHOOSING not to make waves in your own community.
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Posted by DrReality on October 15, 2010 at 3:17 PM · Report this
245
Interesting debate . . . 223 you rock! But I must say that my gut reaction was the same as Comment 40 so, well, so long (and I say that with sadness as I've been a long time reader).
Posted by FirstEqualsLast on October 15, 2010 at 3:18 PM · Report this
BmuthafuckinRad 246
Your response to LR was absolutely correct.

To quote a fellow Episcopalian, " 'I am a Christian' has been stolen from us and turned into some sort of media-driven political, judgmental statement. I am proud that in [the Episcopal Church] 'I am a Christian' means 'I am trying to be a follower of Jesus Christ,' and is supported by inclusive liturgy, discernment, and thoughtful spiritual reflection."

No organization, church or otherwise, that preaches bigotry or second-class citizenship for anyone, anywhere (whether or not based on Old Testament law, which incidentally many Christians understand as having been drastically amended if not mostly abrogated by the subsequent arrival of Jesus) can be remotely "Christian" in the sense of following the teachings of Jesus.

It is time to take the word "Christian" back from the hands of hate-mongering, small-minded, right-wing closet cases, though I have to admit I'm at a loss as to how to do it. Perhaps other readers might have some creative ideas?
Posted by BmuthafuckinRad on October 15, 2010 at 5:47 PM · Report this
247
Rock on, Dan Savage!!! That was such a kick-ass response to the first letter. You are the MAN!!
Posted by Laura P on October 15, 2010 at 6:54 PM · Report this
248
dood, your response to L.R. was poignant and beautifully crafted. Thank you for being a solid, stand-up human.
Posted by papa t on October 15, 2010 at 8:59 PM · Report this
249
My ex wasnt attracted to transsexual, he dated me and I am a pre op transsexual, he wasnt interested in whats between my legs, we had anal sex and he is always the one who is doing the penetration, but he did start watching limited transsexual porn because he got more comfortable with the idea of a girl with a shenis.

So yeah, you can be a striaght man and watch some tranny porn, but not exclusively, and not mainly.
Posted by dontcaretohaveanaccount on October 15, 2010 at 9:11 PM · Report this
250
I wonder why nobody, in these discussions of the New Testament, ever mentions the fellow who describes himself as "the disciple that Jesus loved"?
Posted by Monado on October 15, 2010 at 11:35 PM · Report this
251
All the adult 30-40 something religious people I know (including SDA,Catholic, Mormon, JW,Baptist, ISKON, Muslim, Wiccan and New Agey whatever) all share a viscous, hateful, potentially murderous view of everyone who doesn't share their insane psycho-social-religious view of the universe. The single biggest indicator of teen-age suicide is being deviant from the insanity of the social context they've been born and raised into. No end in site so far as I can see.
Posted by Just Saying on October 16, 2010 at 1:09 AM · Report this
252
I am so sick of judgmental Christians who think they can teach their kids to judge others but are not supporting bigotry and bullying. Dan is absolutely right. They give license to their kids, and many others, to bully and persecute. They sit by while religious leaders spew strident, hateful, judgmental bile – but play innocent when tragedy ensues. Where is the outrage for all the Christian sponsored hate speech? If Jesus is love, start walking the walk! Meanwhile, the bible is NOT the law of the land - the constitution is. If you don't believe in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, go to Iran (and take Scalia and Thomas with you)!
Posted by endolphins on October 16, 2010 at 1:17 AM · Report this
253
I am so sick of judgmental Christians who think they can teach their kids to judge others but are not supporting bigotry and bullying. Dan is absolutely right. They give license to their kids, and many others, to bully and persecute. They sit by while religious leaders spew strident, hateful, judgmental bile – but play innocent when tragedy ensues. Where is the outrage for all the Christian sponsored hate speech? If Jesus is love, start walking the walk! Meanwhile, the bible is NOT the law of the land - the constitution is. If you don't believe in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, go to Iran (and take Scalia and Thomas with you)!
Posted by endolphins on October 16, 2010 at 1:21 AM · Report this
254
How is it in the fact that God has been removed from the relevance of society how many years ago and you say "God damn that God He kills gay children". Well, for those who remember what the world used to be like and know that it is now "unlike" the way it used to be, that it is not God who throws gay children to lions by the light of the silvery moon, but as much more to the very lack of him. I well know you don't want to mistake Christ with good and love, but don't mistake this current world that has taken God out of the world as it has, as a world of good and love either. The world is as mean as it is, not just by the influences of Christ alone, but by the outright actions of the people of this modern world. The world should never have been run the was it had always been run and now still is, but it does and it always has run itself in such a way, and just as now, it should never had been run like it is and always has been run. Don't blame God for your problems. You all brought such things on your own selves by own free decisions and actions.
Posted by TheOldKingDavid on October 16, 2010 at 1:49 AM · Report this
255
You know what? Christians (and Muslims and Jews too) need to quit confusing the means (books of mystical history and ethnic egomania) over the end: the intentions of their creator.

In other words, quit worshiping a book over your actual god.

The real scripture is all around to see: the universe. This makes scientists the real theologians.

Biblical text,written in fallible human language can in no way be a god's word. It is entirely human. And primarily a tool of control and manipulation by the controlling and the greedy. And no, the book itself saying it's god's word doesn't count. Creation gave you that logical brain, use it!

You can look for human wisdom and some poetically inspiring passages in many books. Just stop sinning against commandment #1 by putting any one of them above your deity.

Once you get past the obsession with some book, the whole of creation is out there. Just be careful not to confuse the wind as the whisper of divinity.
Posted by Xweatie on October 16, 2010 at 2:28 AM · Report this
256
#255 addendum:

Accidentally deleted thread-relevant text:

People who believe in god can find reasons to be decent,tolerant, accepting, rational souls without having a book to thump, or some preachers telling them what human words mean, or who deserves their hate today.

I happen to be an atheist, but even the dimmest god believer has to see that any hands in the mix must be yours. First order of business for "good" Xtians is to clean up your houses. DTMF bigoted from control of your message.
Posted by Xweatie on October 16, 2010 at 3:51 AM · Report this
257
Any Christian or any other theist who wants to engage in blaming the victims rather than society for wringing their hands and failing to intervene and protect them when they had the chance, and the bullies for oppressing them: as far as I'm concerned, those kids are better off, if they're away from self-important jerks like you. You're exactly what Savage was railing against. I hope your fatal pomposity that takes the lives of children like those away pleases you, if you can pretend to hide behind your god! If only everyone was just like you, there would never be any problems!

Get this: there will always be difference. The problem with Christianity and many other religions is that they try to eliminate difference. You CAN'T. It is physically impossible to make everyone the same, to try to make everyone conform to your impossible and moronic ideals, especially when said people bring others NO HARM whatsoever. I quit Christianity because I no longer wanted to be associated with a movement far less concerned with kindness and charity than being a busybody and absolute conformity. I didn't find difference threatening, but the utmost nature of Christianity and religion in general is about erasing difference, valuing the physically strong and hardhearted over the weak and the sensitive, and respecting tradition at all costs. I fail to see any bravery or "holiness" inherent in running scared of the powerful and in preventing any change to the status quo. I see no good in punishing others for what they were born as and can't help being.

Rather than ask gay people why they can't be like you, you should ask yourself why you need everyone else to be like you and to see your perspective on things. Why are you so threatened by difference? Why are the children and adults of society so obsessed with sameness and the status quo? Ask yourselves that before you lecture others on who is at fault for failure to save those who are weak and vulnerable from the oppressive intolerance of others. Ask yourself, not if that gays and others fail to meet your ideals, if they are weak, but why you're such a weak-willed coward for caring so much for "order" and the oppressors than for the victims. Ask yourself why you'd rather blame the rape victim than punish the rapist. Ask yourself why your god apparently cares that things continue on as they do, and demands that anyone different in any way conforms as much as humanly possible or face punishment, than asks for kindness and open-mindedness from the majority. Ask yourself whether this is a "god" at all, or a simple projection of your own small-mindedness and stupidity. Which is more "godly," a world where these kids would've been allowed to have been left alone and to live happy lives, or the world we live in now, where they died of despair, and all you will do is make excuses for those who drove them to that point? And then, ask if you're really proud of yourself. I'm an "evil" atheist, and I know that I was bullied in school for being a nerd; everyone else I saw bullied, I defended them. I didn't need the excuse of "Christ" to know that bullying was wrong. I stayed around, even after all indications that no one who mattered was really going to care, because I genuinely believe that something has to get better. I didn't have a big church community to "support" me and hide behind who would've just blamed me for being weird. Ask yourself what the kids did to deserve to be bullied or beaten up every day, since you say that they brought the "problem on themselves?" Ask yourself what Clementi did to have his privacy violated and broadcast on the Internet because his roommate was a complete asshole? What does that mean? So if a boy is a little waifish or has a girly-sounding voice, he brought that on himself? You have any idea how stupid and self-serving that sounds?

You live with your words.
More...
Posted by AnnoyedAtLatterDayTrolls on October 16, 2010 at 4:00 AM · Report this
258
Any Christian or any other theist who wants to engage in blaming the victims rather than society for wringing their hands and failing to intervene and protect them when they had the chance, and the bullies for oppressing them: as far as I'm concerned, those kids are better off, if they're away from self-important jerks like you. You're exactly what Savage was railing against. I hope your fatal pomposity that takes the lives of children like those away pleases you, if you can pretend to hide behind your god! If only everyone was just like you, there would never be any problems!

Get this: there will always be difference. The problem with Christianity and many other religions is that they try to eliminate difference. You CAN'T. It is physically impossible to make everyone the same, to try to make everyone conform to your impossible and moronic ideals, especially when said people bring others NO HARM whatsoever. I quit Christianity because I no longer wanted to be associated with a movement far less concerned with kindness and charity than being a busybody and absolute conformity. I didn't find difference threatening, but the utmost nature of Christianity and religion in general is about erasing difference, valuing the physically strong and hardhearted over the weak and the sensitive, and respecting tradition at all costs. I fail to see any bravery or "holiness" inherent in running scared of the powerful and in preventing any change to the status quo. I see no good in punishing others for what they were born as and can't help being.

Rather than ask gay people why they can't be like you, you should ask yourself why you need everyone else to be like you and to see your perspective on things. Why are you so threatened by difference? Why are the children and adults of society so obsessed with sameness and the status quo? Ask yourselves that before you lecture others on who is at fault for failure to save those who are weak and vulnerable from the oppressive intolerance of others. Ask yourself, not if that gays and others fail to meet your ideals, if they are weak, but why you're such a weak-willed coward for caring so much for "order" and the oppressors than for the victims. Ask yourself why you'd rather blame the rape victim than punish the rapist. Ask yourself why your god apparently cares that things continue on as they do, and demands that anyone different in any way conforms as much as humanly possible or face punishment, than asks for kindness and open-mindedness from the majority. Ask yourself whether this is a "god" at all, or a simple projection of your own small-mindedness and stupidity. Which is more "godly," a world where these kids would've been allowed to have been left alone and to live happy lives, or the world we live in now, where they died of despair, and all you will do is make excuses for those who drove them to that point? And then, ask if you're really proud of yourself. I'm an "evil" atheist, and I know that I was bullied in school for being a nerd; everyone else I saw bullied, I defended them. I didn't need the excuse of "Christ" to know that bullying was wrong. I stayed around, even after all indications that no one who mattered was really going to care, because I genuinely believe that something has to get better. I didn't have a big church community to "support" me and hide behind who would've just blamed me for being weird. Ask yourself what the kids did to deserve to be bullied or beaten up every day, since you say that they brought the "problem on themselves?" Ask yourself what Clementi did to have his privacy violated and broadcast on the Internet because his roommate was a complete asshole? What does that mean? So if a boy is a little waifish or has a girly-sounding voice, he brought that on himself? You have any idea how stupid and self-serving that sounds?

You live with your words.
More...
Posted by AnnoyedAtLatterDayTrolls on October 16, 2010 at 4:01 AM · Report this
259
@175 " Ignorance and cruelty feed bigotry, not religion."
But don't you see, religion is organized and society approved "Ignorance and cruelty"
Posted by davegb2010 on October 16, 2010 at 4:22 AM · Report this
260
Wonderful column Dan that speaks to the heart of the attitudes that create the conditions for hate.

@36 I found myself pondering why the activism of churchs like the UCC, Quakers, and UU's, that are working to help the LGBT community gain equality, have not been given much media attention and have therefore not been able to make much headway on countering the public image of "Christians" or even been given space as participants in public debate over the matter. In Texas they tried (and failed) to have UU declared a cult instead of a religion, and there was a call from Beck to leave progressive churchs... so the only media acknowledgment of progressive christian churches is passive and negative and does not give them a voice in the debate.
Posted by I have always been... east coaster on October 16, 2010 at 6:16 AM · Report this
261
Dan, saw your video on " IT GETS BETTER" campaign, CONGRATS and thank you!

I was Disappointed with your comments on how you met your lover... BETTER TO EAT YOU WITH??? - I think it's great that you adopted a child and have loving family that supports you. BUt is this something you would tell YOUR child... how you met? LEt's be positive role models...... but I believe you need to EDit yourself on a PSA.

It just seems like the gay world is always getting bad wrap, that are sexual perverts. GEE how romantic, Now i guess you won't answer this without your typical FUCK YOU comment.....why, because you can.

HEY I'm a big fan of yours........ Really Disappointed with that comment- Nothing " CHEESY " about it at all. Just what the worlds wants to hear!
Posted by macwin on October 16, 2010 at 7:27 AM · Report this
262
Dear Mr. Savage,

Thank you for the reply you gave to L.R.'s concerns.

Warmest regards,
Elena
Posted by Hellen on October 16, 2010 at 7:29 AM · Report this
BadAnne 263
@23 - I am a Christian who is well aware of history. My church stood up against slavery, marched with civil rights protesters in the 60s, and has ordained openly gay clergy. It is astoundingly ignorant to paint all people of faith with one brush. But then, you're probably one of those bigoted ignoramuses who thinks all people who practice Islam are terrorists. What are you doing reading Savage Love? Wouldn't your time be better spent listening to Bill O' Reilly and Fox News?
Posted by BadAnne on October 16, 2010 at 7:51 AM · Report this
264
Were is itgetsbetter.com or itgetsbetter.org ????
bumper stickers..... banners..... stickers.... buttons.... logo shirts ????
Posted by bikelungs on October 16, 2010 at 8:53 AM · Report this
265
If you don't like Dan's answer, what the fuck are you doing reading a column about fucking, ass fucking and fist fucking and cum drinking fucking column. There is no place for religious fuckers in this column. You are all responsible for 2000 years of cruelty and backwardness. There is no good Xtian just like there is no good Facist or good Wife beater or good serial killer. I am fucking done with being nice to all these comemierdas that are slaves to gaseous creatures in the sky and expect others to respect their deities. Fuck them and their goatfucking deities. If they want to be respected they need to learn to practice their metaphysical rape in the privacy of their tax free places of worship and leave the rest of us, happy and honest sinners in fucking peace. This week answer was the answer to end all answers, bravo querido Dan. And for with the bigoted, bad and stupid followers of these tax free institutions, we should democratically impose a tax, a sin tax for every time they open ther dirty, infected mouthes to vomit their cruel, horrific lies, just like we tax tobacco to prevent people from breathing its toxic smoke. We "sinners" should also demand from politicians that they stop being the bootlickers of these blood drinkers and flesh chewers and start respecting true human rights and fair justice. The Left and the Right have for too long being the hungry lickers of every santorum that drops from the church ass, its fucking time that they stop. Que se vayan pa la mierda!
Eddie el Cubano Pecador
Posted by Eddie el Cubano Pecador on October 16, 2010 at 9:14 AM · Report this
266
Yeah! Save Gay Teens! Fuck all the other kids that kill themselves because they are teased and bullied and generally tortured!
Posted by georg on October 16, 2010 at 9:15 AM · Report this
267
In the DFW area Youth First Texas is an organization for GLBTQ teens. I'm sure that other, similar organizations exist, and I hope that teens who need information or help will contact them. My parish, Transfiguration Episcopal, donates the proceeds from our Maundy Thursday Soup Supper to Youth First Texas.
Posted by EHCulver on October 16, 2010 at 9:41 AM · Report this
268
@241. Yes teenagers have been killing themselves regardless of sexual orientation for years. However, LGBT youth are 4 times more likely to commit suicide than their straight counterparts.
Posted by chris313 on October 16, 2010 at 9:53 AM · Report this
269
Don't give them ideas Mr. Savage. I'm fairly sure a "end atheist marriage" movement could gain some steam in places like Texas and South Carolina.
Posted by DanL on October 16, 2010 at 11:17 AM · Report this
270
I read this article about a year ago, i believe it was in time magazine? It had to do with racism, which applies to so much more! What I pulled from it, is that by not speaking about things before they happen, you perpetuate that very thing.
Posted by sh on October 16, 2010 at 11:45 AM · Report this
271
@266

50% of an average student population experiences bullying at least once a month. Only 10% of children experience persistent bullying.
For LGBT youth, the numbers are different.
80% are harassed for their sexual orientation and the majority of these children experience frequent victimization.
What's more, even though 91% of the average student population report hearing repeated slurs based on sexual orientation, teachers are found to intervene only 3% of the time.
Bullying is never right, and it is not about stopping the harassment of one kid at the expense of another, it's about supporting a grossly under served group. When gay kids are harassed more often than straight kids, with greater severity than straight kids, and receive help from adults less often than straight kids, there is little wonder that LGBT youth are 4 times more likely than their straight peers to commit suicide as a result of this harassment.
We are clearly doing something very, very wrong.
Posted by you on October 16, 2010 at 12:23 PM · Report this
272
Dear L.R.:

Your bible is full of some pretty horrific statements saying we're abominations of nature, that what we do (in other words, the way we love) is unnatural, that we should be put to death, etc., and if you're going to play the victim because we dared to call your religion out on it, keep in mind that book is nearly two thousand years old. It disrespected us first, and has done so for centuries. Boo hoo, we finally are now send the sentiment back in your direction. Boo fucking hoo. Deal with it.

You're choosing to believe in it, the writers of it chose to hate on us, but we didn't choose to be who we are because that's our nature. If man-made is the opposite of natural, then our hatred, which you choose and you make, is what's unnatural, not our "lifestyle" of loving one another.

If anything... why, that's rather Christ-like of us to love one another in a way that's so powerful it bursts through boundaries, now isn't it? Why yes... yes it is.
Posted by RedSpider on October 16, 2010 at 2:48 PM · Report this
273
I love the project. It's just what many teens need, gay or straight.
Posted by niko4ever on October 16, 2010 at 4:50 PM · Report this
HellboundAlleee 274
"Bob," Christians really piss me off, pretty much on a daily basis. Kids getting beat up and harassed to death, and Christians come in with their make-believe stories about their little make-believe pokemon Jesus who has all the traits they love most. Yet I look in the bible, and he sure as fuck doesn't live in there. Makes you wonder if these sanctimonious Everybody Lovers have ever read the end of their fucking stupid book. For fuck's sake, Jesus has seven fucking eyes and seven fucking horns and a half-gashed-out neck, and then he's riding around on a horse slashing people to bits with his mouth-sword, and then he's getting all these people stuffed into a winepress and cruelly crushes them until their eyes pop out and their bones crack and they're reduced to pulp that pours out into the streets and makes the ground flood with three or so feet of blood.

Dudes--if you ignore the end of the book, then I can ignore everything else. You tell me it's metaphor, so I JUDGE the moral lessons within those metaphors. The metaphors, the teachings of Jesus ARE NOT GOOD. They are BLOODY and CRUEL and CULT-CRAZY. As I like to say, "the bible's teachings on childcare are summed up thusly: beat 'em, sell 'em, rape 'em then eat 'em."

Thing is, Oh you More Liberal Than Thou Peaceful Christians, when you sign up to be part of this group, you endorse your fucking book. How is anyone supposed to know which part you trash and which part you like? The part where the biggest moral lesson of all is Absolute Obedience? Or is it the sex part. Ohhhh, no ya don't. You can't divorce Jesus from the hatred of sex. Or anything else in your book. He said he follows The Law, Every Jot and Tittle. That includes those silly ceremonial laws about "things" like "unclean menstruating women," killing people who work on Saturday, killing children who mouth off or don't obey absolutely, and killing people who fuck wrong. And I know YOU don't fuck right. But hey--YOU guys are the ones who like to say we're all sinners who deserve to die.
More...
Posted by HellboundAlleee http://hellboundalleee.blogspot.com on October 16, 2010 at 4:57 PM · Report this
275
It really is unfair to pillory an entire collective of people because they are united in the Lord they've elected to submit; but read and live the gospel with different elucidations of the truth that it imports. (I somehow doubt that you'd invoke the same words with a Muslim..."their invisible friend in the sky..."...remember, it's Hamas executing homosexuals for being gay in Gaza -Israeli's have lesbians for generals...and it was the electorate of Oakland and Richmond, California that invoked that reprobate measure as a prohibition on gay unions -Black Baptists....but, myself being an Irish-Catholic heterosexual male from a slum in West Belfast who is so grateful each morning to buy his NY Times at a shop only four blocks from Castro Street, get his espresso from Ethiopian transplants on Haight Street, kiss his wife while sharing a meal with their gay flatmate, get "recovery" from his gay AA sponsor, and attend mass at Most Holy Redeemer at Diamond Street [where at least two-thirds of the congregants are old chatty queers who i am amazed stop talking to hear the homily...]..I'm your "bad-guy", right? ...Sometimes "knee-jerk liberalism" costs lives; do you really think that the only people who bully gays and lesbians are Evangelical Christians? Why is it we live in culture that lends "shades of grey" to Islamic terrorists, but not to Christian believers? No one should be bullied at school...And I do believe that a greater onus falls upon Christians that prey upon gays in any capacity because they've missed the whole point of charity and love...Why is homophobia in the Black and Muslim community acceptable to "the left"? (frankly, is that why AIDS and HIV are so much more prevalent in the Black and Muslim community...it's not IV needle use...in my career as an addict, and then working in recovery in Portland and San Francisco I have met five Heroin/Meth addicts that were black; and it is impossible for a woman to transmit HIV to a man in intercourse [men give women AIDS, men give men AIDS, but women can not spread AIDS due to sexual contact.]; oh, and articles in the NY Times and Washington Post from 2006 support this claim -that black men are becoming infected due to unprotected sex with other men in "lock-up", and then when released from prison/jail disseminate the worst slurs and behaviour towards homosexuals...but that's ok, according to the left.)...and there is the spread of HIV across Africa...
My point though is this- you would tell me that is unfair to characterise all Blacks and Muslims as being "misoandrophilia" (I don't think "homophobia" is correct because there are people who do hate gays, so i think it's wrong to imply fear or misunderstanding...)...but if you're a white-follower of Christ, then you're the bastard of the greatest nadir...

-A Born Again-Catholic Believer who keeps his gay friends much closer than anyone invoking anathema and contempt and has eschewed himself from any communion that doesn't insist her congregants offer love to everyone.
More...
Posted by andy k.s. on October 16, 2010 at 5:02 PM · Report this
276
I love you Dan Savage!! OMG your response to L.R. is amazing, I couldn't have said it better myself. I especially love the "magic sky friend Jesus" remark, fucking brilliant. Keep doing what you're doing, the "It Gets Better" campaign is a great idea.
Posted by kelbel659 on October 16, 2010 at 5:53 PM · Report this
277
You say it gets better but there is no ENDA or protections against bullying on the job. I was enticed into a demotion to avoid humiliation and bullying on the job. The feelings are the same as rape. Especially when you are intimidated by speech and attitudes so as to remain silent about who you are on the job. When a screaming queen quipped we need no protections with quotas because we are already there I think we do not even support ourselves and sell ourselves out.
Posted by rz on October 16, 2010 at 6:06 PM · Report this
Amaranthus 278
Ugh, I hate the fact that being Catholic means I'm stuck with the Original Sin of being one of the first religions to use our Bible to facilitate hate.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. Love thy neighbour all you want, but when a catholic turns to me and says that gays are evil, and they'll go to hell, and blah blah blah, all I can reply with is "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

God's business isn't in the bedrooms of the consenting adults of the nation, to paraphrase a Canadian Politician.
Posted by Amaranthus on October 16, 2010 at 6:22 PM · Report this
279
Hi Dan,

Wish you would stop ranting about It Gets Better and return back to picking apart and answering peoples sexual questions.
Posted by Man on October 16, 2010 at 7:27 PM · Report this
280
246 got it right!

Christians who are not for discrimination against glbt people should reclaim the Christian dialog. Make it clear that you are not on the side of the very-vocal very-hateful most-visible Christians on this issue. Rescue "Christianity" so it doesn't sink on the wrong side of this major civil-rights issue.

Tell other Christians you know! Tell people of other religions and non-religious people. A lot of them will be very pleasantly surprised. After this comments section, I as an indifferent agnostic am thinking "fuck yeah, Episcopalians and Quakers!"
Posted by voiceofreason on October 16, 2010 at 11:20 PM · Report this
281
It has been my personal experience that when someone proclaims to be a "good christian," you need to run away from them just as fast and far away as you can. (Or they take advantage of you or rob you anyway they can.)

A truly good person doesn't feel the need to tell you how good they are.
Posted by LyleAustin on October 17, 2010 at 2:15 AM · Report this
282
It has been my personal experience that when someone proclaims to be a "good christian," you need to run away from them just as fast and far away as you can. (Or they take advantage of you and rob you anyway they can.)

A truly good person doesn't feel the need to tell you how good they are.
Posted by LyleAustin on October 17, 2010 at 2:20 AM · Report this
283
I'm not sure of the protocol involved in commenting on an individual post when you're already many posts past it, but I wanted to address the comment (I believe it was andy k.) about the only Christians who hate gays being evangelical Christians.

It may be a question of where you were raised; but where I come from, the only people who called themselves Christian, rather than a specific denomination, WERE evangelical, or born again Christians. Otherwise, people would say they were Catholic or Protestant, and if Protestant, they would mention the denomination; Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc. Although all of these religions are technically Christian, no one I'd ever known just used the generic term of Christian.

I was born and raised Catholic, in Brooklyn, at a time when Brooklyn was the city of churches, many of which were Catholic, with matching elementary schools. My day to day existence was Catholic; yet my house backed up to a girl's yeshiva; and my idea of comfort food was a Hebrew National hot dog and sauerkraut and a potato knish. It was all fine, none of us were troubled with ideas of converting the others. If my neighbors turned Catholic, then their stores would be closed on Sundays too. What a blessing, when Christmas Eve fell on a Sunday, to be able to traipse to 13th Avenue, and revel in the luxurious feeling of doing something illicit.

It occurs to me now that Christmas Eve couldn't have fallen on too many Sundays in my youth, but that was how I perceived it.

We sang "They Shall Know We are Christians By Our Love," so we did know we were Christians; but as far as identifying ourselves as such; I would no sooner identify myself as a Christian, than I would an Existentialist Buddhist, if such a things exists.

The one exception was when we would describe something as the chrisian thing to do. The small "c" was not an indication of ignorance, but rather because this behavior was not limited to a specific religion or denomination. Rather, it pointed more to a way of treating others that stressed kindness and compassion; a sort of moral high road. Now,of course, this would be considered as slighting other religions, but it wasn't meant as such. It could equally have been thought of as being a good Jew or Baptist or Buddhist, or just a good human being; and a positive reflection of whatever you believed in; even if it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Lately, though, christian or Christian is evoking an image of something else entirely. Seventeenth century Salem, Massachusetts is one thing that comes to mind.

If we're looking at kindness and tolerance towards others as a benchmark for identifying Christians, then I think quite a few of them must have gone into witness protection. In too many places, there are none to be found.
More...
Posted by kayo56 on October 17, 2010 at 7:07 AM · Report this
284
Everyone: please read Marci Macdonald's The Armageddon Factor, detailing how the Canadian and American religious right-wing are intentionally acting to "be wise as serpents and harmless as doves" (Preston Manning, former head of Canada's Reform Party, and guide to PM Harper, p.108). Is guile the way? People practising love with guile sit on their hands and teach their kids to sit back and do nothing, say nothing, and turn away. And then beg forgiveness for their sin afterwards. I get tired of Christians using their being forgiven as justification for sinning. That doesn't bring a dead boy back.
Posted by eyeswalking on October 17, 2010 at 10:00 AM · Report this
285
Marci Macdonald's The Armageddon Factor details how the Canadian and American religious right-wing are intentionally acting to "be wise as serpents and harmless as doves" (Preston Manning, former head of Canada's Reform Party, and guide to PM Harper, p.108). Is guile the way? People practicing love with guile sit on their hands and teach their kids to sit back and do nothing, say nothing, and turn away. And then beg forgiveness for their sin afterwards. I get tired of Christians using their being forgiven as justification for sinning even more. That doesn't bring a dead boy back.
Posted by eyeswalking on October 17, 2010 at 11:46 AM · Report this
286
OMG I am so glad you didn't pussy foot around with the Jesus holier than thou L.R.

I live in the bible belt, I get counseling to deal with my anger at the two faced, forked tongued nonsense that comes from these "conservatives". Most "Christians" hang Christ on the cross daily. Christ kept saying, love and forgive, I say stop drop the stones L.R.!!! Hate in your heart kills the gay christ.
Posted by pathguide on October 17, 2010 at 3:30 PM · Report this
287
I just heard the "It Gets Better" campaign mentioned on Larry King. Last week there were a few interviews on CNN where it was brought up. This campaign is really getting some attention.
Posted by L.Dole on October 17, 2010 at 6:32 PM · Report this
288
Dan, for the most part I agree and find great entertainment with most of your rants and raves. But regarding people of faith with their stance against gay marriage as perpetrators of violence against young homosexuals in schools is just wrong. I for one was brought up in a VERY conservative household, went to Catholic church every Sunday and heard my mother and religious educators tell me that homosexuality was against the church's beliefs. But you know what?! I HAVE MY OWN BRAIN!!! I decided MYSELF that I don't believe what they do. Gay couples SHOULD be able to get married. I ended up befriending lots of homosexuals in my school life and thereafter. All I'm saying is that by YOU insisting that religions opposed to gay marriage are supporting violence against young homosexuals is like saying music with violent lyrics are responsible for crime. People can think for themselves. Just think about it...
Posted by didolife411 on October 17, 2010 at 9:30 PM · Report this
289
@234,

The marriage-is-a-religious-concept line is a big fat lie. I'm an atheist; my husband is agnostic. Our secular wedding ceremony was performed by a Humanist celebrant, but it didn't have to be performed by anyone. Simply signing the papers legalized the marriage. Note that I said MARRIAGE, not civil union. We are MARRIED, and no one ever challenges that designation because we happen to be straight. So why can't gays have the same right? It doesn't make sense to say don't call it marriage because marriage is religious when atheists get married all the time! Marriage is a civil contract. If churches want to perform weddings (or refuse to perform them), that's fine but that is NOT what makes a couple married. Legalization is what makes a union a marriage. It is a legal right, not merely a religious matter. There is no excuse not to extend this right to gay couples.
Posted by Diagoras on October 17, 2010 at 10:13 PM · Report this
Miz Byrd 290
For LR If your don't like LGBT people then just do't have anything to do with US we probablly don't want anything to do with you. I don't mean to be rude but if it comes out that way sorry. But about the faith thingy that you were talking about I really hope that you don't think that the Lord depises LGBT's because He created us ALL DIFFERENTLY and He loves US ALL that way. And think about it if we were all created equal then that would really suck to have sex with the same person,the same way and the same all the time.
Posted by Miz Byrd on October 17, 2010 at 10:26 PM · Report this
291
@246 Get some like-minded friends of yours together and check out the faith or religion section of your local newspaper. See if they are looking for columnists or if there are opportunities to write letters or online comments. You might want to check out Sojournors at http://www.sojo.net/ Maybe there is some useful info there.
Posted by Diagoras on October 17, 2010 at 10:27 PM · Report this
292
Another voice to the chorus that there are not only "good" Christians out there, but "good" churches. The church my mom goes to is a "More Light" church... meaning they're explicitly in favor of, well, treating gay people pretty much like straight people.

And, my mother pointed out that...stating or implying that all Christians are anti-gay is, well, pretty insulting to the gay Christians out there...
Posted by Melissa Trible on October 18, 2010 at 1:22 AM · Report this
293
@Anne77 - Please read any of the books by Marcus Borg, an Episcopalian and Jesus scholar who believes that the Bible was written by regular people at a certain time in history reflecting their understanding and mores at that time. The Bible is not for the most part "factual" but it does contain Truth. As with the Bible's acceptance of such things as slavery, the anti-homosexual passages can be seen as just plain wrong. As human beings continue to evolve, our understanding of these Truths continue, albeit painfully slowly. God has given us the ability to reason and there is much beauty and important messages, and Truth, in the Bible. I am hopeful that the Emerging Church will be the face of the Christian Church of the future.
Posted by cyndysue on October 18, 2010 at 7:03 AM · Report this
294
For everyone saying there is no such thing as a good christian, here's an entry in the It Gets Better project:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPZ5eUrNF…

I'm not a religious person, but there ARE homosexuals that are. It's just dickish to pretend that you know what will make everyone in world happy.
Posted by susanksweet on October 18, 2010 at 7:38 AM · Report this
295
I'm sorry, but the injunctions in Leviticus are more than just "ritually unclean" and unkosher; a few pages later it states that the penalty for a man having gay sex is death. (It doesn't say anything about women in there.) *If* you decide you're going to believe that everything in the Bible is the truth and you're going to follow Jewish law on everything (including the no-mixed-fibers shirt business), then ya gotta buy that.

OR, like most sensible people, you figure out that, okay, whoever wrote and edited that part of the Bible was a flaming homophobe and you're not buying into that, just like you're not buying into the death penalty for a child who strikes his father. We don't do that these days, right? We don't shun mixed-fiber garments; if we did Brooks Brothers would be out of business. We *all* pick and choose what part of the religion we're going to follow and what part is antiquated nonsense. And while that prohibition is in the Bible for sure, and it's real serious for sure, one can choose to follow it, and enforce it on others, OR NOT.

It doesn't do any good to sugarcoat the stuff in the holy books. Those folks back then were making their way out of slavery across a desert, and they *were* homophobic, if for no better reason than that they needed to keep the birth rate way up. (Check out what happened to Onan.) That doesn't mean that we have to either buy into that homophobia or pretend it wasn't there. We have other, better options.

Peace,
Paul
Posted by pstamler on October 18, 2010 at 10:24 PM · Report this
296
I'm sorry, but the injunctions in Leviticus are more than just "ritually unclean" and unkosher; a few pages later it states that the penalty for a man having gay sex is death. (It doesn't say anything about women in there.) *If* you decide you're going to believe that everything in the Bible is the truth and you're going to follow Jewish law on everything (including the no-mixed-fibers shirt business), then ya gotta buy that.

OR, like most sensible people, you figure out that, okay, whoever wrote and edited that part of the Bible was a flaming homophobe and you're not buying into it, just like you're not buying into the death penalty for a child who strikes his father. We don't do that these days, right? We don't shun mixed-fiber garments; if we did Brooks Brothers would be out of business. We *all* pick and choose what part of our particular religion we're going to follow and what part is antiquated nonsense. And while that prohibition is in the Bible for sure, and it's real serious for sure, one can choose to follow it, and enforce it on others, OR NOT.

It doesn't do any good to sugarcoat the stuff in the holy books. Those folks back then were making their way out of slavery across a desert, and they *were* homophobic, if for no better reason than that they needed to keep the birth rate way up. (Check out what happened to Onan.) That doesn't mean that we have to either buy into that homophobia or pretend it wasn't there. We have other, better options.

Peace,
Paul
Posted by pstamler on October 18, 2010 at 10:27 PM · Report this
297
Sorry for the double post. The software put up both my original comments and the edited version. "To err is human, but if you really want to louse things up, you need a computer."

Peace,
Paul
Posted by pstamler on October 18, 2010 at 10:31 PM · Report this
298
After hearing and reading your comments about gaykids being bullied?and commiting suicide?i honestly blame the" gay community" for pointing the finger at Christians rather than themselves!
Posted by ibullygaykids on October 19, 2010 at 1:29 AM · Report this
299
I applaud your efforts Dan Savage, but left on it's own, things don't necessarily "Get Better" for LGBT youth facing bullying. The point is to fight to Make it Better and Stop Homophobia.
http://sherrytalksback.wordpress.com/201…
Posted by Matzpen on October 19, 2010 at 7:49 AM · Report this
300
I applaud your efforts Dan Savage, but left on it's own, things don't necessarily "Get Better" for LGBT youth facing bullying. The point is to fight to Make it Better and Stop Homophobia.
http://sherrytalksback.wordpress.com/201…
Posted by Matzpen on October 19, 2010 at 7:51 AM · Report this
301
According to Dr. Spitzer--an advocate for gays not being sexual deviants, people can 'change' their orientation.

So, I will agree that bullying is unjustifiable for an alleged orientation/preference.  I wonder if it's true that some of those teenagers may not have been gay but were ridiculed and harassed because it was believed that they were gay.  

Teenage years are so tough.  Most kids are so unsure of who they are and it doesn't help to be labelled.

As for the teens that considered themselves gay and chose to kill themselves--it's a shame.  I remember when I was in highschool, there was a girl who killed herself because she felt she wasn't popular enough.  She wasn't accepted into the crowd because of her average looks.  I wish she had Jesus in her life.  She would have accepted herself the way she was because Jesus loved her and still does because there is an after life.  Don't ask me how that's possible or what proof I have.  I know.  It's called Faith.  My Faith also states that all suicide victims should not get a proper funeral and burial but I'm a rogue Christian.  I kinda believe that God is love and is merciful.  I believe that she's an angel in Heaven.

I have to disagree about Christians being bad.  Even the really 'bad' so called Christians realize that there is a higher power and none of us are without sin.  That's why we need our magic sky friend so badly.

Besides, all LGBT are not equal.  There are members of your group that you'll choose to shun because they've got
BO, or have a lazy eye or what have you.  In other words, you'll become perpetrators of the same diabolical vitriol you're spewing against Christians.  In other words, you'll be considered bullies, too!  Or you might be the victims of bullies in your crowd.  Difficult to change human behavior and it looks like bullying is an insurmountable obstacle in our lives.

Just an aside, it feels like Christians are being persecuted.  I say this because Muslims are known to publicly execute LGB people but no-one
dares criticize them.

I'd have more respect for Dan if he vehemently condemned the atrocity of beheadings, beatings, mutilations that Muslims assault their LGB people with on a regular and ongoing basis.  I'd think he'd have balls but until then, he's a stereotypically weak effeminate gay man to me.
More...
Posted by Wannabe Catholice on October 19, 2010 at 7:57 AM · Report this
302
Bla, bla, bla...Everybody wants everything. That's what this comes down to.

The Christians want it all: the rules, the interpretations, the subordination, the creed, the faith, THE truth, the authority, the legacy, sovereignty over the whole fucking world if they could...

And the gays want everything no less: wanna be "out", want to get married, have children, be respected, accepted, be taken in account, have all the rights, want to scream "I'm gay!" and not get clobbered, want to be proud, want to fuck around, want to be different but not treated differently, some even want to be christian - and gay.

And the kids these days...well, there's just no saying what they don't want and what they're not getting.

And the blacks...who are never done with their list.

And than the immigrants...

And god knows who else, that I can't even keep count of. So, not to make a long tale any longer, I just wanna tell you what I see. Don't see no black or white or yellow or green, or gay, lesbian, drag, tranny, or christian, muslim, Greek fucking orthodox, or whatever... I just see people. And you're ALL a bunch of megalomaniacs. There - equality accomplished by that one all-binding and unremovable human trait. Amen to that.
Posted by chainee on October 19, 2010 at 8:11 AM · Report this
Just wrote a ridiculously long essay, may as well sign up... 303
"Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it's clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are "better or more worthy" than others."

And as long as there are people out there who support the denial of a man's right to engage in acts of lesbian sex or a Caucasian American's right to be called an African American, it shall remain clear that our society hasn't shaken off the belief that some people are "more female or more African than others."

Please. I would support any proposed changes to the laws of my state which would amend the existing legal institution of "marriage" by extending its scope to include pairs of consenting adults of the same gender, along with those whose genders are opposite.

In other words, if my community as a whole decided that it wanted to extend not only the legal conventions associated with marriage (i.e. those relating to tax, next of kin benefits and responsibilities, etc) to cover same-sex partnerships, but that it also wanted to effect a de facto modification of the collective lexicon (via a modification of the legal lexicon, in regards to an institution whose provision, and therefore whose lexical determination, is subject to government monopoly), I would support such a change.

But let's be honest about this: the top-down imposition of a modification in the collective lexical conventions surrounding the terminology relating to the (rather ancient) tradition of "marriage" is the only objective unique to the same-sex marriage movement, beyond a movement aimed at securing the universality of legally parallel (but differently-named) domestic partnerships.

Couching the movement in the terms of the Civil Rights movement is intellectually sloppy at best. At worst, it is a cynical attempt to portray all opponents as bigots.

"Separate but equal" carried substantive legal implications during the civil rights era—two kids living in the same public school district would have been consigned to attending two different schools, perhaps differing greatly in any given measure of quality, only because of differences in skin color. Thus the two separate institutions, to which the law differentially assigned these two kids solely on the basis of race, may have been far from equal in many legally significant senses.

Alternatively, if "domestic partnerships" with the full legal force of "marriages" were made universal, the two institutions would be TRULY separate but equal. Which brings me back to my second paragraph...

The oft-heard comparisons between the civil rights movement and the same-sex marriage movement (as distinct from a movement to universalize domestic partnerships) would be merited if the civil rights movement had sought to erase ethnic classifications altogether, mandating not only that "Caucasian" and "African-American" kids not be assigned to different public schools on the basis of race, but also that they must all be classified as "Caucasian Americans." Proponents of same-sex marriage, after all, insist that same-sex partners not only be allowed to enter into institutions which not only enjoy identical legal treatment as those occupied by opposite-sex partners, but that the same word be used to refer to all such partnerships.

Now back to the denial of lesbian sex rights. A consenting male adult has the legal right to engage in sexual activities of his choosing with a consenting adult partner—since 2003, anyway. But to say that he has a right to engage in lesbian sex would just be silly. In this example, it should be obvious that there are no "rights" involved, but only a contradiction in the terms used. Invoking the idea of rights here would make sense only if the legal meaning of the term "lesbian sex" were to change, such that it became sufficiently general to refer to all sexual activities. At that point, every consenting adult would have a legal "right" to engage in "lesbian sex."

But, given present lexical conventions, to assert that a man's "lesbian sex rights" are being denied would be an absurdity, regardless of specific context. And, according to present (legal and broader societal) conventions regarding the term "marriage," it is similarly silly to insist that a same-sex couple's "marriage rights" are violated if they are able to enter into a legally recognized partnership which carries the full legal force of marriage, but is called something different.

That is not to say that there is anything wrong with having community-wide conversations about changing lexical conventions—language is, after all, a highly dynamic set of arbitrarily related symbols and predicates. And domestic partnerships with the full legal force of marriage are presently far from universal in the USA, so there is certainly room for continued advocacy in the furtherance of this cause.

But for god's sake, if the sakes of intellectual clarity and honesty aren't quite good enough, please quit with the gay marriage-civil rights comparisons which implicitly equate the two movements, as they are substantively quite dissimilar; and let’s talk start talking about why we believe that same-sex and opposite-sex unions should both be called marriages, rather than lobbing out crude assertions of “denial of marriage rights.”
More...
304
@216 - I've been saying that for years. It's good to know there are two of us now.
Posted by wolfhound on October 19, 2010 at 11:12 AM · Report this
305
This is your typical rubish from Savage. Who conviniently ignores the fact that all sorts of people get bullied. But I guess that to acknowledge it would be interfere with Savage's need to play the victim, and his own anti-Christian bigotry.
Posted by Veronicadd on October 19, 2010 at 11:47 AM · Report this
306
Yep, same old nonsense from Dan Savage. I saw a video from him on Youtube where he claims to have read the Bible 'cover to cover'. Well if that is the case he must have read how the Bible speaks out against drunkeness, adultery, fornication and laziness. But strangely these people don't get beaten up. Not sure why LR wrote him saying her/his feelings were hurt. Anyone familiar with Savage will know that he's unpleasant and obnoxious.Dan Savage is attention seeking anti-Christian bigot.
Posted by Veronicadd on October 19, 2010 at 1:30 PM · Report this
307
Yep, same old nonsense from Dan Savage. I saw a video from him on Youtube where he claims to have read the Bible 'cover to cover'. Well if that is the case he must have read how the Bible speaks out against drunkeness, adultery, fornication and laziness. But strangely these people don't get beaten up. Dan Savage is attention seeking anti-Christian bigot
Posted by Veronicadd on October 19, 2010 at 1:44 PM · Report this
308
Dan, THANK YOU for saying this [taking soi-disant "loving Christians" to task for the consequences of their insitutiionalized homophobia]. Children killing themselves is the result, and if they REALLY don't want to contribute to kids being bullied into suicide, they shouldn't be homophobic, and have no business denying gay Americans the right to marry whom they choose.
Posted by Unwit on October 19, 2010 at 2:38 PM · Report this
309
I've been reading your articles for years now. I must say you're absolutely brillant. I only wish everyone were as strong as you are with your voiceful thoughts and views. Hate crimes MUST come to a stop. OUR YOUTH NEEDS BETTER GUIDANCE! And it is people like YOU who make a difference. You have a voice for those who are too afraid to speak. You are the gay communities fearless leader, and I wish you the best. If it weren't for people like you, there would be no hope.
Thank you,
Patty from Pittsburgh
Posted by pattycakes on October 19, 2010 at 4:05 PM · Report this
wbtphdjd 310
For LGBT teens, in addition to "it gets better," which it does, another message: don't give the assholes the satisfaction. What they want is a world with no queers in it. Just by staying here, you're depriving them of what they want. I remember a rabbi in Nashville who wrote in response to a Christian minister who called for increased efforts to convert Jews. He said there is undoubtedly a vast difference in their methods, but the ultimate goal of modern Christians is no different from that of the Nazis: a world with no Jews. Same goes for modern Christians and queers. They want us all to disappear, whether through suicide, "ex-gay" therapy, whatever works. Stick around and piss 'em off.
Posted by wbtphdjd on October 19, 2010 at 4:10 PM · Report this
311
not sure if you know about this yet dan but I thought you should...a school that is encouraging bullying of gay students by putting out a msg that being openly gay is wrong... http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/ar…
Posted by sarah tiessen on October 19, 2010 at 5:06 PM · Report this
312
Towards LR: The truth shall set you free! Maybe by bitch-slapping you through a wall or two of your ignorance, but, still, free. Bravo, Dan!
Posted by random_bear on October 19, 2010 at 6:25 PM · Report this
313
I want to echo the support and applause for your letter to LR. Your compassion for these isolated children is so inspiring. After reading your letter I folowed through on my earlier idea to forward your response, and the links to the It Gets Better Project, to my gay twin sister asking her to contribute a video, as well as an email to a few members of the Safe Schools Project that operates in Portland, OR, working towards lessening bullying towards GLBTQ kids in school. I wanted to tell you that your voice and message not only reaches the deaf "followers of Christ" like LR, but also the Christians and non-Christians and would-be activists who recognize the truth of what you're saying, the desperate isolation and need of these kids to hear and see positive gay role models. Your work is inspiring not only new thought in some, but real action in others and letting the kids who need to hear it most realize that they are not alone. Thank you.
Posted by a reader on October 19, 2010 at 8:45 PM · Report this
314
Bravo.
There's a key fact this dingbat letter-writer skips. She chose her religion. Even if it's 'what she was brought up with', as people often excuse their hate, it's something she chose to accept rather than reject.
So to equate someone attacking the actions of her Church with physically attacking gay teens, or queer hate speech, is literally insane. It shows what she's been told about lgbt people making "choices" about their lives as well.

I will not begrudge anyone they're religion. I certainly have my spiritual moments where all I want is a Torah and a prayer shawl and a community. And there's a reason excommunication used to be a big deal- for lots of people religion is their main community, which is certainly a human need.

However, I will begrudge people "hate". I attack some denominations of my religion for their stances and practices, too- they may say "hate the sin, love the sinner", but labeling someone a "sinner" for their existence leads to a sense of "it's ok to think that some people don't deserve respect."

I want to note that a friend of mine mentioned that so much teen suicide goes unnoticed, and she resented that it was only when it was lgbt teens and hate crimes that it became big news. On the one hand, I see what she means- I was harassed terribly in school. To the point where I felt bad for the teachers who had to have me in class.The antisemitism part was just as bad from teachers as students. And my home life was abusive as well. I still have real damage, both physical and emotional, from what I went through. And you bet there were suicide attempts.

But here's the thing: it SHOULD be news that kids are harassing each other to this extent, as well as the fact that hate and homophobia are so on the rise. Expecting kids to "grow up" so young has not worked. Because ALL it's done is made things inhuman. Everything is just unilateral rules and codes and standardization.
College entrance gets more competitive to where my 31 year old sister who graduated Magna Cum Laude from Brown could never have gotten in now, because the process has nothing to do with intellect, but formatting CVs and training to apply the right way.

We've built huge industries on making sure that there is no aspect of life that is based on who an individual is, and assessing and praising or helping them based on that. And the educational realm is one of the saddest examples. Add that to the early-onset of physical maturity and increased adreinaline that they're brain isn't yet physically ready for- and it's not surprising that they don't see anyone, even themselves, as human, and therefore intrinsically deserving of love and respect.
More...
Posted by justmeagirl on October 19, 2010 at 9:18 PM · Report this
315
I also say to those teens being bullied: "It gets better" doesn't dismiss your pain now. That is valid too- we're so often told that things that affect us when we're young don't matter- that until you're an adult, nothing you do or feel has any effect.
But your hurt is valid, and your anger. It will get better, but only if you don't also judge yourself for hurting, and keep enough distance to see that there WOULD be something wrong with you if you didn't care- you'd be just as callous as them.

Of course, you also have to remember that they're young too, and under influences they probably don't realize they're under. Their actions matter a whole lot more, but you'll keep your sanity a little better if you remember that we're all human. even the bad ones.
Posted by justmeagirl on October 19, 2010 at 9:22 PM · Report this
316
Heroic. Beautiful. In love with you, and your movement.
Posted by damnchalk on October 19, 2010 at 11:11 PM · Report this
317
Dude, I want to buy you and your partner and your little kid lunch. You're awesome.

Seattle and the world are better having you in them.
Posted by nixkuroi on October 20, 2010 at 1:02 AM · Report this
318
Dude, I want to buy you and your partner and your little kid lunch. You're awesome.

Seattle and the world are better having you in them.
Posted by nixkuroi on October 20, 2010 at 1:04 AM · Report this
Pheonix Burns 319
Thank you so much for starting the "It gets better series." I know people who have started their own independent version because of it, and I believe its doing a lot of good. Wish someone had been there to tell me it gets better when I got expelled from high school for being gay.
Posted by Pheonix Burns http://therightfulownersofheaven.blogspot.com on October 20, 2010 at 8:43 AM · Report this
320
In reading these comments I'm seeing a lot of people attack bigotry with bigotry. Real classy.

When a Christian tells you they support gay marrage and gay adoption you tell them to fuck off. When a Christian tells you Christ told us not to judge but to love one another, you tell them to fuck off. When a Christian says a true translation of the offending passages isn't even close to what the haters recite, you tell them to fuck off.

I've even seen comments saying "good Christians" need to accept this vile behavior because of the sins of others. By this logic Pat Robertson has the right to hold gay people and their supporters responsible for the behavior of any gay person who has molested a child.

You can't have it both ways.
Posted by mdhpiper on October 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM · Report this
321
Almost forgot: All the asshole-Christians out there need to shut the fuck up and read their damn Bible or once. Not just read it, but study it thoroughly. Use more than one translation. Study Hebrew and/or Greek if it helps.

Your fuckery is making it harder for those of us who get it.
Posted by mdhpiper on October 20, 2010 at 11:10 AM · Report this
322
@JustWroteALongEssay

For a real wordy, back-patting dude trying to come off sounding like he knows it all, you really ought to check your facts. Domestic partnerships are legal in New Jersey with all the rights and benefits of marriage. And guess what...big surprise...turns out without it being called marriage, it's different. So yeah, to be equal, it has to be equal.

http://www.civilunionsdontwork.com/
Posted by YayDanSavage on October 20, 2010 at 7:42 PM · Report this
Just wrote a ridiculously long essay, may as well sign up... 323
@YayDanSavage

"wordy" is fair...hence the name I chose for myself. But I don't see how any fact-checking is called for here, as I never claimed that domestic partnerships have not yet been established anywhere--just that they are presently far from universal in the USA.

Otherwise, my main point was just that sloppy arguments don't help anyone.

Personally, I'd love to see same-sex marriages become legal in every state in the US--but I don't believe that embracing the rather popular (sadly) tendency to portray any undesirable legislative stance as a civil rights violation is bringing us any closer to that goal. All it does is make everyone a little bit dumber and sharply reinforce awareness of group identity distinctions.
324
There you go, people should stop bullying gays and start bullying Christians. That will work. ?? Jesus (if you believe), made the Jewish laws of the OT obsolete. He promoted social justice and equality. I want to go back to school to become a social worker. Most of my desire comes from the example of Jesus. He saw something special in everyone. I too see something special in all the people I work with in both a job teaching dance and volunteering with teenage moms. I have commited several of the sins that he told us not to do (and he never mentions anything about homosexuality BTW). Who am I to judge anyone? I also teach my kids to not be judgemental. Love your neighbor as yourself. That is what I try to do above all.
I am ANTI-bullying. Not gays, not Christians, not anyone just because you don't understand or agree with who they are.
Posted by Kristi on October 20, 2010 at 9:48 PM · Report this
325
I'm sick and tired of all of you.

Kill me now so I don't have to deal with your hate.
It doesn't matter who I am, what my sexual orientation is, what my religion is, what the color of my skin is.

I'd still rather die than have to experience, see, feel everyone's hatred every day for the rest of my life.
Posted by justanotherperson on October 20, 2010 at 10:46 PM · Report this
326
At 325: Count me out of that "all of you". I'm sorry you're experiencing such hatred right now, I just don't want to be included amongst the haters when I don't even know who you are. Chances are you're cool, and I feel bad you're in such pain. I hope you can connect with people who support you and that you can realize that the assholes who are making you miserable right now don't own the world.
Posted by Umbellularia on October 21, 2010 at 12:42 AM · Report this
327
Hey Dan, why not start a movement for all the fat kids that are tormented by their peers, torment that you are "partially responsible" for because of your anti-fat comments. You could call said program: "It NEVER gets better".
Posted by Sergei on October 21, 2010 at 12:53 AM · Report this
328
I have finally had it. I can't sit back and watch this anymore. I have to say what I have to say, and although some of the language I use may not line up with my belief system, oh well, thems the breaks. God is either going to forgive me of turn me into a pile of lightning-struck goo. So here goes...

Many years ago, when I was 9 years old, I was forceably fucked up the ass by a gay (possibly bi) foster brother. I didn't want to do it, it was forced on me. I was threatened that if I told anyone, I would be hurt badly. I kept silent for about a year after I left the foster home, then reported it. They investigated, but nothing happened. They apparently didn't believe me, or there wasn't enough evidence. I have no idea where my attacker is today. Last I heard (20 years ago), he'd moved to northeastern Washington. For all I know, he's up there fucking deer.

What he did to me screwed me up for life. I am constantly battered by thoughts that I am worthless, damaged goods. What it also did was instill in me an absolute utter HATRED for homosexuals. Can you blame me? I defy, I DARE you to tell me that what happened to me was a good thing. I was fucking anally RAPED, people! And here is this whole section of society, trying to cram down my throat that the acts perpetrated on me are GOOD, and WONDERFUL, and worthy of my ACCEPTANCE? Well, excuse me, people. I was HURT by it. I was DAMAGED by it. And if you think I'm just going to sit by and say "Oh, that's okay. What happened to me isn't important.", then you are SADLY FUCKING MISTAKEN!!! Not once in 39 years since then have I heard so much as an "I'm sorry for what happened to you". Sadly, I don't think anyone ever will.

Sorry, but your bullshit doesn't fly with me. I have a RIGHT for my anger. I DEFY you to tell me I don't! PROVE that I don't. You can't!

In the meantime, shut the fuck up about your so-called 'rights'. Unless someone wants to tell me "I'm genuinely sorry", I don't want to hear it.
More...
Posted by Ironclad on October 21, 2010 at 9:02 AM · Report this
329
I have finally had it. I can't sit back and watch this anymore. I have to say what I have to say, and although some of the language I use may not line up with my belief system, oh well, thems the breaks. God is either going to forgive me of turn me into a pile of lightning-struck goo. So here goes...

Many years ago, when I was 9 years old, I was forceably fucked up the ass by a gay (possibly bi) foster brother. I didn't want to do it, it was forced on me. I was threatened that if I told anyone, I would be hurt badly. I kept silent for about a year after I left the foster home, then reported it. They investigated, but nothing happened. They apparently didn't believe me, or there wasn't enough evidence. I have no idea where my attacker is today. Last I heard (20 years ago), he'd moved to northeastern Washington. For all I know, he's up there fucking deer.

What he did to me screwed me up for life. I am constantly battered by thoughts that I am worthless, damaged goods. What it also did was instill in me an absolute utter HATRED for homosexuals. Can you blame me? I defy, I DARE you to tell me that what happened to me was a good thing. I was fucking anally RAPED, people! And here is this whole section of society, trying to cram down my throat that the acts perpetrated on me are GOOD, and WONDERFUL, and worthy of my ACCEPTANCE? Well, excuse me, people. I was HURT by it. I was DAMAGED by it. And if you think I'm just going to sit by and say "Oh, that's okay. What happened to me isn't important.", then you are SADLY FUCKING MISTAKEN!!! Not once in 39 years since then have I heard so much as an "I'm sorry for what happened to you". Sadly, I don't think anyone ever will.

Sorry, but your bullshit doesn't fly with me. I have a RIGHT for my anger. I DEFY you to tell me I don't! PROVE that I don't. You can't!

In the meantime, shut the fuck up about your so-called 'rights'. Unless someone wants to tell me "I'm genuinely sorry", I don't want to hear it.
More...
Posted by Ironclad on October 21, 2010 at 9:05 AM · Report this
330
"I'm sorry, but there are no "good Christians." The so-called good Christians are what make the bad Christians possible, by supporting an evil, bigoted book, and going along with a historical and cultural tradition that has caused immense suffering over 2000 years.

If you think of yourself as a "good Christian" who supports gay rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you're a good Christian.

As much as I hate bigoted, anti-gay Christians, at least they're honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it's pretty clearly not in support of gay rights."

Just wanted to say this statement from Blackrose is dangerously ignorant and intolerant.

I am, personally, atheist/agnostic, but I find this comment to be irresponsible. Here - let's change a few words and see how it looks now:

---

I'm sorry, but there are no "good Muslims." The so-called good Muslims are what make the bad Muslims possible, by supporting an evil, bigoted book, and going along with a historical and cultural tradition that has caused immense suffering over 2000 years.

If you think of yourself as a "good Muslim" who supports human rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you're a good Muslim.

As much as I hate Muslim extremists, at least they're honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it's pretty clearly not in support of human rights.
Posted by Constrictor on October 21, 2010 at 9:51 AM · Report this
331
@Black Rose
I'm a non-Christian who believe you can be a good, gay-loving Christian. I don't believe EVERYTHING my good book says, but that doesn't mean I don't believe at all. It's not all or nothing. I know it was written by man, not by God, and man has a way of villifying things. So, I pray, I fast, I am kind to others, I believe that all people are equal and God doesn't condemn people for their sexual preference...and I know many Christians in this great, truly free country of Canada who believe the same thing.
Oh yeah, and our beer is WAY better :)
Posted by Giya on October 21, 2010 at 1:16 PM · Report this
Joe Rota 332
"good" and "religion"
hahahahaha

Really.
History of human beings: Create something to follow
Egyptians, Greeks, etc

I mean really? You are whatever religion you are because your parents were. So should you be a whatever profession they were too?

Every culture has created some form of religion throughout history.
This version has taken over because they figured out the fear aspect of it. Believe or spend eternity watching Glen Beck shows, or burning in hell.

come on people,

think

what good has come?
wars
bigotry
poverty (go look at the Vatican, and then realize how many people starve to death in the world - ridiculous)

think

control, that is all. you are a fool to think otherwise.
have you 'seen' one scrap of proof in you life that ANY of these stories are true?

control works in mysterious ways

take your life back
Posted by Joe Rota on October 21, 2010 at 1:24 PM · Report this
333
@Ironclad

I'm sorry for what happened to you.

That was rape, nothing else. It doesn't make homosexual sex wrong though. Just like the countless man-on-woman rapes every day make straight sex wrong. They make rape wrong. Consenting sex, gay or straight, is not wrong. Rape is not consent.

Again, I am truly sorry for what happened to you, no child, no teen, no adult deserves to be forced to perform any kind of sex act. I hope you find a way to stop hurting.
Posted by Giya on October 21, 2010 at 1:32 PM · Report this
334

I married a man 40 or so years ago whom I thought was straight – true times were different back then, but the societal pressures still unfortunately exist that encourage some people to hide their sexuality.

Your advice to the woman engaged to the confused or homophobic man was right on. In addition I would like to say to her – she is not a bitch for digging deeper, protecting herself and being smart about the situation. I still love my ex husband and the father of my children, but I don’t want to be married to him nor he to me. He has been exclusively in gay relationships ever since we split in the early 70’s.

One more thought – I believe your strong language, Dan, is called for (you are obviously passionate on the subject) and it does not offend me, however, if you are trying to
ease the suffering of these young people and change people’s behavior – I would guess the language is offensive to just the people
whose minds we are trying to change.

In turn that allows them to dismiss the important part of the message.
Posted by frog hollow on October 21, 2010 at 3:52 PM · Report this
335
All I can say is, if Dan and those commenting here are even relatively representative of the homosexual community, then it is a very good thing that the second amendment is enshrined in the bill of rights. Keep that in mind if or when you guys finally do gain power and show up at the doors of those who do not "approve."

This forum gives credence to the opinion that homosexuals are radically dangerous freaks.
Posted by RangerRick on October 21, 2010 at 5:14 PM · Report this
336
As a gay man and the son of a preacherman, I was extremely disappointed in the way the "GAY KIDS ARE DYING, FUCK YOUR FEELINGS" letter was handled. It truly could have been an opportunity to open a legitimate dialogue between the gay community and the Christian community, which needs to happen in order for things to get better.

This US VS. THEM mentality hasn't EVER been productive.

Not all of the "faithful Christians" cling to "dehumanizing bigotries" and it just isn't fair to say that. It seems that you have a pulpit, Dan Savage. You have a voice and can reach so many people with a message of hope for the future. But what I read in this column today was a missed opportunity written with bitter subtext. The "faithful Christians" are never going to agree with us and they don't have to. We need a way to reconcile Christianity and homosexuality - Tammy Faye style. She was a gay advocate who didn't support marriage rights.

It's not responsible to encourage "mocking, hurting or intimidating" on EITHER side.

We're all in this together. The Bible even has a verse that can be used as a direct message to these gay, Christian kids who are conflicted about what they've been told and who they are: "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." - Jeremiah 29:11
Posted by jdpasco on October 21, 2010 at 5:31 PM · Report this
337
What little sympathy I had has vaporized after reading many of the comments. I think Psychiatry had it right up until 1973 when it treated homosexuality as an illness. The comments here convince me,that more than a mental illness, homosexuality is most likely demoniacally induced.Hate God and die in your sins. You get to choose.
Posted by Ricochet101 on October 21, 2010 at 6:09 PM · Report this
338
According to the CDC's Youth Risk Behavior Survey, "Gay students are more than twice as likely to report having had sexual intercourse before age 13 -- that is, to be sexually abused as children. They are three times as likely to report being the victims of dating violence, and nearly four times as likely to report forced sexual contact. A majority of LGBT teens in Massachusetts reported using illegal drugs in the last month. (Perhaps most oddly, gay teens are also three times as likely as non-gay teens to report either becoming pregnant or getting someone else pregnant.)"

Maybe being made fun of isn't the reason for gay suicide rates. In fact, maybe being gay is a result of abuse, and maybe gay suicide rates are an effect of being gay.
Posted by RangerRick on October 21, 2010 at 6:29 PM · Report this
339
Not sure why this comment didn't make it, but here it is again...

According to the CDC's (the Center for Disease Contol) Youth Risk Behavior Survey, Gay students are also more than twice as likely to report having had sexual intercourse before age 13 -- that is, to be sexually abused as children. They are three times as likely to report being the victims of dating violence, and nearly four times as likely to report forced sexual contact. A majority of LGBT teens in Massachusetts reported using illegal drugs in the last month. (Perhaps most oddly, gay teens are also three times as likely as non-gay teens to report either becoming pregnant or getting someone else pregnant.)

Maybe being made fun of isn't the real reason for gay suicide rates. In fact, maybe abuse is the reason many turn gay, and maybe gay suicide rates are a result of being gay.
Posted by RangerRick on October 21, 2010 at 6:42 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 340
Ranger Rick: CLEARLY, you were never bullied as a young person. Bullying, the mob mentality, is terrifying. You can be afraid to leave the house, become depressed, avoid social contact & start to believe your tormentors are right; you must be not worth anything, because so many other (clearly better, more successful) people, are saying you're a loser.

I'd like to see your statistics about gay teens using more drugs than straight teens, but having been a teenager once who had bullying/harassment problems in school, lemme tell ya: it wasn't because I was bi, that I was miserable. It was because there was a whole culture in Catholic high school that encouraged the bullying of anyone who was different, and even the alleged support structure - administration & teachers - sided w/ the bullies, who were sports stars w/ school board parents.

I dunno if being made fun of* (which you make sound like no big thing) is THE reason for the serious spike in recent gay teen suicides, but the level of harassment that kids torture each other with these days is way worse than when I was in school. The internet makes it possible for bullies to follow kids wherever they go, and it was 'net access that pushed poor Tyler Clementi over the edge to suicide, as well.

Kids make fun of what they perceive as different or threatening; being gay is different. It's a parent's job to teach their child how to live with differences, as there are a lot of them out there in the world. Parents who even subtly suggest that being gay is somehow lesser, a bad thing, something they would be disappointed in their kid being, perpetuate hate by sending young people into the world who think that way.

Dan's angry words are provoked by the agony he must feel when he reads yet another child took their life because of bullying, or isolation; & although there are some very cool Christians who are reaching out to everyone with open arms, sadly, the ones who have the megahorn right now are the neo-cons who claim to love the sinner, but not the sin. 'cause they're saying gay love is a SIN. See how that works? & we won't even address the outright homophobes.

Dan must be remembering what he went through as a young 'un. He's pissed. Other than railing at him for abuse of his pulpit, what are any of you who claim to be the good kinda Christians doing to change attitudes about acceptance of gays as full, equal human beings in your communities & in your churches? You, personally, what are you doing? 'cause if you think you don't know anyone gay (or lesbian, bi or transgender), statistics say you are wrong.

-----

* being made fun of may include being beat up, pushed into lockers, sent hate mail, being cyberstalked, having pictures or intimate video of you/you & a partner posted online, being outed to family, etc.
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Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on October 21, 2010 at 7:08 PM · Report this
341
Eva, I'm sorry, but I do know what it's like to be bullied, and know people who are gay. My brother is gay. Your point that Dan is angry doesn't allay my fear that he's a narrow-minded whack job. Niether does it give me any comfort with the rest of the posters in this forum and in many other forums that I have read. The homosexual community that is represented in forums such as this one tells me that it is prudent and necessary to guard my family and myself from them and their imbalanced, crazy view of the world. Dan and his disciples have made it very clear that they believe that there is no distinction between people that believe that homosexual behavior is immoral and people that hate homosexuals - and he's on a crusade. A crusade against me, my faith, my family, my friends and my community. Fine.

The CDC report does, in fact, give clear evidence that the accusations of bigotry is not the primary cause of gay suicides. But you guys don't want to examine the evidence because you don't care about the people who are killing themselves. Your motivation is to use their deaths as a political wedge to demonize everyone who does not embrace homosexuality. In reality, the homosexual political machine wants more deaths so that they can have more to accuse us of. They would be disappointed if the deaths ended today.

In short, you're a bunch of dangerous, crazy, frauds.
Posted by RangerRick on October 21, 2010 at 8:10 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 342
I AM ASKING YOU TO GIVE ME LINKS THAT PROVE WHAT YOU SAY. Frustratingly, I looked for hard data, not some political site when Googling gay teen suicide, and whether one the "gays are more at risk for suicide" or the "those stats are bogus" side, separate stats that were cold hard evidence of gay teen suicide versus straight teen suicide were hard to find. All the info I found at the CDC website gave a generalized breakdown:

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/dataan…

Please link me to these statistics that show gay kids are more likely to knock someone up, also.

RangerRick: I am not gonna give you the heated empty argument you crave. Clearly you relish a debate, otherwise you wouldn't be responding in an atmosphere that clashes with your views.

*I* am not a crazy fraud. I live honestly, am good to others, don't lie about who I am & how DARE you tell me I don't care about these kids killing themselves. That could have been me. It tears me up. I don't have a homosexual agenda; I have an agenda of, kids are dying. Kids are dying because other kids bully them. & who is it who puts the thoughts int he bullies' heads? Their parents. Where do parents get the idea that homosexuality is immoral? Their church. How do we stop the kids from feeling hopeless? By assuring them that not everyone thinks that they way that they are made, the way that they are wired is "immoral". They have no more control over their preference than you do.

Your brother is gay, and you believe homosexual behavior is immoral. You believe that your brother, who was born the way he is, his actions are immoral.

Wow, that's ludicrous, and laughable. I feel sorry for your brother.

Bigotry DOES CAUSE hate; hate DOES CAUSE bullying and harassment. Don't believe me? These are "nice" ordinary high school kids, and their Facebook page:

http://imgur.com/hdbn8

So..being gay is a choice. OK. When did you choose to be, your-God-approved, straight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtjqLUHY…

& these kids think that being gay, if you "choose" it, means you deserve punishment. I'm sure their parents think as you do: those gays are crazy & dangerous. Better keep my family safe from them.

Kids with that attitude bring hate to the schools. Kids who feel the hate & pressure sometimes don't get the support they need to make it through another day. Sorry, but if your God endorses that view, if your God is that intolerant, then I'd think I am not the crazy & dangerous person who doesn't care about the kids who are dying.

Clearly everyone else here hasn't bothered to engage you as you have made up your mind what everyone else here has to say. But a non-political, plain' ol newspaper in Utah has an article perhaps you should read:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/505185…

Also:

"he Salt Lake City-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been the target of anger from lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender advocacy groups after its high-profile role in passing the Proposition 8 gay-marriage ban in California and, more recently, a sermon by senior apostle Boyd K. Packer.

Speaking at the church’s semiannual General Conference this month, Packer referred to same-sex attraction as “impure and unnatural.” "

***

“Homosexuality is Satan's diabolical attack upon the family that will not only have a corrupting influence upon our next generation, but it will also bring down the wrath of God upon America.” - Jerry Falwell

***

"All homosexuals should be castrated." -Billy Graham

***

"If the world accepts homosexuality as its norm and if it moves the entire world in that regard, the whole world is then going to be sitting like Sodom and Gomorrah before a Holy God." - Pat Robertson

***

Speaking about Prop 8, popular Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren:

" RICK WARREN: But the issue to me is, I’m not opposed to that as much as I’m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I’m opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.

STEVEN WALDMAN: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?

RICK WARREN: Oh I do. … "

***

"“I’m here to talk about sexual ethics from a Christian point of view,” he said. “I believe homosexuality is an abnormal lifestyle." -- Pastor Green of the Pentecostal Church

***

Pastor Bethel says that homosexuality is not a civil right and that no society needs homosexual coupling.

He goes on to say, "[Bahamians] are not fooled by suggestions that homosexuality is normal and will fight vigorously to defend this country from further infiltration".

Pastor Bethel says Thompson failed to grasp what is really happening with homosexuality in The Bahamas for the past few decades.

***********************************

Each of these quotes was easy to find, I Googled pastor quotes about homosexuality. A pastor is someone who holds himself up as a spiritual leader. None of these leaders sound like they are tolerant, or loving. If my preacher in my church, when I was a teen, had said any of these things, I shudder to think what my worldview would be like now, or how I would have felt if the God I believed in then, didn't love me as I was.

Soooo -

if God is love, then his messengers are getting it wrong. & that getting it wrong bleeds through onto our children.

I care a lot about those lives. Saying otherwise is insulting. Thankfully, you're not MY brother.

Show me links to back up what you say. Anything you have said - but especially the gay teens & pregnancy one. I know some gay teens. Not how it works.
More...
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on October 21, 2010 at 9:08 PM · Report this
Joe Rota 343
#341 RangerRick

Sweet Jesus, do you actually believe what you are typing or is this just an attempt to get the left wingers wound up?
Posted by Joe Rota on October 22, 2010 at 12:09 AM · Report this
344
I am a Christian and I hate how so many give my religion a bad name. I am a staunch supporter of gay rights and am in the "gay people are born that way and God doesn't make mistakes" camp, which pisses off many of my fellow "Christians". Most of the haters that I argue with shut up when I make the point that I would rather stand before God having been truly loving of all people and turn out to be wrong, rather than have hated gay people and they turn out to be perfectly fine. Jesus preached love of all people- no judgement and no exceptions. Anyone who says otherwise is preaching cultural prejudices and not true Christianity.
Posted by ScaryMerry on October 22, 2010 at 2:42 AM · Report this
345
i had a hard time at school being gay but now i've been with my boyfriend for 20years. Kids need to know it does get better. Dan what you said was right and should be said.
Posted by godric2d on October 22, 2010 at 5:36 AM · Report this
346
i had a hard time at school being gay but now i've been with my boyfriend for 20years. Kids need to know it does get better. Dan what you said was right and should be said.
Posted by godric2d on October 22, 2010 at 6:05 AM · Report this
347
i had a hard time at school being gay but now i've been with my boyfriend for 20years. Kids need to know it does get better. Dan what you said was right and should be said.
Posted by godric2d on October 22, 2010 at 6:05 AM · Report this
348
I'm a straight Jew. Three things I strongly believe in is Tikun Olam - repairing the world, that evil flourishes when good people do nothing, and that no one person or belief has all the answers.

I agree with another poster, I really don't see a clear anti-gay bias in the Bible. But even if it were there, so what? People should look to their own behavior, not everyone else's. To me, doing the right thing does not mean policing someone else's sexual preference, but it does mean working-speaking-acting against violence and injustice.

As for it getting better, why should it have to? Kids have it hard enough, we should be looking at ways to help all of them to grow up without trauma. Bullies should never be tolerated. Kids should never be made to be ashamed of themselves or their families. But then again, our society really isn't kid friendly, is it?
Posted by skanandron on October 22, 2010 at 8:00 AM · Report this
349
I'm a straight Jew. Three things I strongly believe in is Tikun Olam - repairing the world, that evil flourishes when good people do nothing, and that no one person or belief has all the answers.

I agree with another poster, I really don't see a clear anti-gay bias in the Bible. But even if it were there, so what? People should look to their own behavior, not everyone else's. To me, doing the right thing does not mean policing someone else's sexual preference, but it does mean working-speaking-acting against violence and injustice.

As for it getting better, why should it have to? Kids have it hard enough, we should be looking at ways to help all of them to grow up without trauma. Bullies should never be tolerated. Kids should never be made to be ashamed of themselves or their families. But then again, our society really isn't kid friendly, is it?
Posted by skanandron on October 22, 2010 at 8:02 AM · Report this
350
I realize I'm a little late to the party, but bravo on the response to L.R.! Your passion for and stalwart defense of GLBT rights are an inspiration, Dan, and though I'm sure you already know it, a lot of us in the 'straight community' are pulling for you.

And I agree with your striking back against this 'follower of Christ' who somehow thinks her right to feel offended trumps these childrens' right to life without harassment. It's because our society still treats religious beliefs as unassailable bastions of righteousness that's part of the problem. Profess to be a believer and your opinion somehow is worth more. It's absolute horseshit.

So keep on fighting the good fight, and may the voices of reason one day (soon) drown out those of ignorance and hate.
Posted by EyeOfMars on October 22, 2010 at 9:10 AM · Report this
351
Thank you Dan. The stuff the Religious Right pulls galls me beyond belief, particularly the hypocrisy of bashing LGBT people & then critiquing the LGBT community over factors they played a big part in making worse, it's that detestable blame the victim mentality at work. But it is even worse that they assume it is their right to dictate what should be acceptable, and that they call anyone who doesn't follow that evil. They go after everyone that isn't Christian, or Jewish, straight and conservative. Case in point: I'm bi, Transgender, and Wiccan. The Wiccan element alone attracts serious fire from them, before Islam became the "Evil" religion du jour it was Wicca, and we still get harassed because we aren't Christian. I got a lovely note a few weeks back saying I was going to hell for that reason & it outlined why all the other world religions -except Christianity & Judaism- are evil. They want to edge out every group that doesn't fall in line.
That being said I appreciate your good sense in limiting your arguments, you take the care to specify the Religious Right. You don't go off on Religion in general, as happens so often when the Religious Right is brought up. I think that shows good sense. I may be assuming & ascribing things incorrectly here, but I think you realize that there are plenty of religious people out there who use their faith to support LGBT teens and LGBT adults, and that there are plenty of LGBT people who have deep & supportive faith beliefs. And I'm not just talking about those Christian denominations that have decided to be supportive in the last decade, I mean everyone, the people like myself who are Wiccan or Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or Baha'i or Pagan or any other faith outside of Christianity.
The Religious Right hurts us all, their intolerance of people that don't fit their world view has an impact that is only negative. They need to realize that since Christians and straight people are majorities in this country they have the responsibility of making sure there is room for everyone else, they can't use that advantage to stomp on everyone, because the only thing that comes of that is people being squished out of existence. They point at the problems of LGBT people as evidence for their hatred, I dare them to really look in a mirror and who really has the problems: oppressed minority trying to ensure their civil rights, or majority group trying to stomp out opposition so they can enjoy their (illusory) version of a perfect country.
More...
Posted by Windfox on October 22, 2010 at 4:24 PM · Report this
352
Are people really putting gays over god? Its time to walk away and never look back.

Posted by Truth.com on October 23, 2010 at 8:19 AM · Report this
353
@ 352 Please walk away, never look back, and never come back either, at least to slog.
Posted by Ricardo on October 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM · Report this
354
@ 352 Please please please walk away, never look back, and never come back either, at least to slog.
Posted by Ricardo on October 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM · Report this
355
Bravo for standing up and telling it like it is. Any gay person who apologizes for the inequities visited upon them are demeaning themselves and our culture. Somewhere, somehow, we (our culture) have "allowed" people to have open discourse speaking of LGBT people as if there were something wrong with them. Maybe it's a step up from the de-humanization that has occured over history but I don't think anyone should settle for less than "full humanity", and apparently, neither do you.
Straight, white, middle-aged male (although I DO have a gay son)
Posted by MrEps on October 23, 2010 at 8:57 AM · Report this
356
Dan, I grew up in the Willamette Valley, in an area where anyone with any intelligence at all knew better than to express anti-gay sentiment, and I was regularly bullied for *being gay* (I'm not gay, but for some reason I give gay vibes). The bullies, or most of them (not to mention the kids who would watch and do nothing) were from liberal, "gay-accepting" families. Kids bully people who are different, and so long as heteros are the majority of the population I doubt that LGBT kids will have it any easier for a very, very long time.

I even got into a fight once for *being gay* (though I'm not gay, I said I was). The teacher who resolved the issue was a lesbian herself, but did zip to punish the offenders.

And yeah, I'm sure the women whose feelings you are so willing to trample over won't hold any bitterness over it. No, you couldn't possibly have made the problem worse for the LGBT peers of her kids by telling her essentially to go fuck herself.

Being a popular advocate for the cause doesn't mean you can do no wrong in the service of that cause, Dan.

As if you'll ever read this.
Posted by anonymity on October 23, 2010 at 6:22 PM · Report this
357
So, Dan Savage believes that the Christian conviction against gay marriage, because it explicitly identifies an entire outlook on life as wrong, is itself an implicit encouragement of bullying, ipso facto. He rejects the notion that people can raise their children in the belief that others are honestly mistaken in their feelings and impulses, yet simultaneously teach them that they should not bully or abuse others for that reason.

I wonder, then, if Dan Savage would be willing to have this criticism turned back upon him. By denouncing Christians as wrong-headed bigots, he himself has said that their ideas are "less worthy" than others. One can assume that if he were to adopt children or be responsible for teaching others, that he would pass these values on. And, since he believes that it is impossible to inculcate values that condemn others' beliefs, without implictly calling for them to be bullied to the point of suicide, we can see that Dan Savage is calling for the abuse, bullying and suicide of Christians when he denounces their entire worldview as inferior and bigoted.

His thoughtless and idiotic diatribe is rightly to be rejected. Christians believe that it is possible to draw a line in the sand between right and wrong, and we believe that this also involves teaching our children not to harass and bully others simply because they have some wrong-headed ideas or disordered feelings. Dan Savage doesn't believe in these kinds of distinctions, however, and so there is no other way to interpret his own bigotry and denunciation of Christian beliefs, save as a belief that Christians should be harrassed and bullied to the point of suicide... because, they're the "wrong" ones, after all.

If If he believes that he can denounce Christian beliefs without implicitly calling for systematic violence against Christians, perhaps he would be willing to return the favour, and believe that Christians can denounce homosexual ideology without calling for systematic violence against homosexuals? What an hypocrite! This is the typical inability of the radical leftist, to think his way out of a wet paper bag.

Everybody who just "goes with the flow" in our society should watch out. Christians and conservatives are at least capable of showing some tolerance, and at least their philosophical outlook affirms unambiguously the dignity of all human persons on absolute moral grounds. If occasionally minorities are mistreated under the conservative watch, there is a philosophical ground for criticizing it - just as many pious Christians opposed the Inquisition, sheltered Jews from the Nazis and pioneered the Civil Rights movement. Comments like these from Dan Savage show us just how benign and philosophically sophisticated a world run by liberal ideologues will be.
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Posted by Austin on October 24, 2010 at 1:55 PM · Report this
358
So, Dan Savage believes that the Christian conviction against gay marriage, because it explicitly identifies an entire outlook on life as wrong, is itself an implicit encouragement of bullying, ipso facto. He rejects the notion that people can raise their children in the belief that others are honestly mistaken in their feelings and impulses, yet simultaneously teach them that they should not bully or abuse others for that reason.

I wonder, then, if Dan Savage would be willing to have this criticism turned back upon him. Since he believes that it is impossible to inculcate values that condemn others' beliefs, without implictly calling for them to be bullied to the point of suicide, we can see that Dan Savage is calling for the abuse, bullying and suicide of Christians when he denounces their entire worldview as inferior and bigoted.

His thoughtless and idiotic diatribe is rightly to be rejected. Christians believe that it is possible to draw a line in the sand between right and wrong, and we believe that this also involves teaching our children not to harass and bully others simply because those others have some wrong-headed ideas or disordered feelings. Dan Savage doesn't believe in these kinds of distinctions, however, and so there is no other way to interpret his own bigotry and denunciation of Christian beliefs, save as a belief that Christians should be harrassed and bullied to the point of suicide... because, they're the "wrong" ones, after all.

And all of you who, perhaps only secretly, are thinking: "Yeah, Christians should be harassed and bullied to the point of suicide." Surprise! You're what's wrong with the world; *you* are the one with hatred in your heart.

If Dan Savage believes that he can denounce Christian beliefs without implicitly calling for systematic violence against Christians, perhaps he would be willing to return the favour, and believe that Christians can denounce homosexual ideology without calling for systematic violence against homosexuals? What an hypocrite! This is the typical inability of the radical leftist, to think his way out of a wet paper bag. It's all about an emotion of righteous indignation and self-flattery as a thoughtful rebel. But really, it's a way for the intellectually lazy to flatter themselves while jeopardizing every commitment to principled reasoning, which allows a society to stand and flourish.

Everybody who just "goes with the flow" in our society should watch out. Christians and conservatives are at least capable of showing some tolerance, and at least their philosophical outlook affirms unambiguously the dignity of all human persons on absolute moral grounds. If occasionally minorities are mistreated under the conservative watch, there is a philosophical ground for criticizing it - just as many pious Christians opposed the Inquisition, sheltered Jews from the Nazis and pioneered the Civil Rights movement. Comments like these from Dan Savage show us just how benign and philosophically sophisticated a world run by liberal ideologues will be.
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Posted by Austin on October 24, 2010 at 2:12 PM · Report this
359
ya'll need to get out more-- you act like you never met a gay christian-
Posted by sl5 on October 24, 2010 at 4:26 PM · Report this
360
I have in-laws who are very vocally anti-gay and we clash on the subject frequently. I think if you want to be seen as a 'good christian' you need to shout down the bad ones whenever and where ever possible. Yell it from the rooftops! As someone who believes in a loving, forgiving God and who believes that there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality it is my DUTY to shout them down or if I can't to at least dull their voices.
Posted by Aphrael on October 24, 2010 at 9:50 PM · Report this
361
My in-laws are very vocally anti-gay and we clash on that frequently. I think if you really want to have the 'good christians' recognized you need to be as active and vocal as the other guys. Shout it from the rooftops! I believe in a loving, forgiving God and I see absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. However I'm would not be a 'good christian' if I just sat on the sidelines. Be active, sign petitions, post it to your social network of choice, start conversations, get your friends in on it with you! Be as loud and proud to support the gay community as they are when supporting themselves.
Posted by Aphrael on October 24, 2010 at 9:58 PM · Report this
362
Great, now I'm offended from both ends. This lady is definitely blind to her own bigotry and the effect her words and beliefs have; still quite frankly, as someone whose faith has often been the virtually the ONLY thing that kept me from suicide (most recently I discovered even my fellow queer friends really suck in the suicide support department), I'm deeply hurt and offended by the continuation of this notion that religion is the root cause of said bigotry. Quite frankly, I'd rather be allowed to kill myself than have people like this "supporting" me. If you support me, support all of me, but calling my savior "magic friend in the sky Jesus" undermines any words of comfort or hope you have to offer. Thanks but no thanks.
Posted by darkphoenixbc on October 25, 2010 at 9:23 PM · Report this
sociologist 363
I am a Christian and I love the Lord and I also love gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, and queer people. Every human deserves the same rights, including the right to marry. I am bisexual myself and there is nothing wrong with my feelings and my love for whoever God blesses me with. So-called "Christians" who "hate the sin" and "judge sinners" need to go back and read the Bible some more.

I love you Dan Savage :D :D :D
Posted by sociologist on October 26, 2010 at 6:47 PM · Report this
364
Oh, so that fanatic wants to silence thoughts that disagree with the little world that LR has surrounded themselves with. Too goddamned bad. I'll say it again: too goddamned bad. I grew up with Christian right fanatics like LR and they have no problem imposing their views on others in the spirit of witnessing. But they don't want to reciprocate and hear an opposing view.
Instead, they want to pass laws restricting the rights and freedoms of the people they find disagreeable. LR go fuck yourself. The times they are a changin'
Posted by Astorix on October 27, 2010 at 7:09 AM · Report this
365
Suicide is for cowards. Suck it up, learn some boxing, and then fight back against the bullies. None of this namby-pamby bullshit about trying to enforce tolerance and acceptance. Earn respect with your fists!
Posted by Tough Shit on October 27, 2010 at 1:09 PM · Report this
366
People of all sexualities and desires watch all sorts of porn, Dan. Really, is this new to you? And the partner of the girlfriend in letter #2 is not necessarily bisexual. Why not suggest that his gf ASK how he identifies and/or what his desires are, in an open and accepting way? Why not suppose that perhaps he is struggling with his own gender identity and/or desires, and watches trans porn with the fantasy of himself as a transwoman, being fucked by a man? I actually thought it odd and bewildering that there was an assumption that the porn being watched was of transwomen--is it not possible that he's watching all sorts of trans-identified porn? You didn't help "make it better" in your response; rather, you perpetuated closed-minded assumptions and generalizations about the wide range of human sexuality, and came off as judgemental and, quite frankly, clueless. There's a larger queer community out here that you don't seem to be a part of or want to know about, explore, or understand. You might want to work a little bit on thinking about how YOU can make it better.
Posted by atb on October 27, 2010 at 11:54 PM · Report this
367
I am ok with gay lifestyle, but push it on my kids and you get an enemy quick. No reason that my 2nd grader came home with a letter talking about a mandatory conference on homosexual acceptance. Your agenda is backfiring.
Posted by Dan j s on October 28, 2010 at 4:53 PM · Report this
368
Bullying … Church Sponsored Terrorism
When are we going to finally point the finger at the root cause of discrimination and bullying in this country? How many more teens have to shoot themselves, hang themselves or jump off bridges? How many kids have to be pistol whipped, crucified and hung on a fence to linger and die? We’ve got Fred Phelps running around the country viciously picketing the funerals of our honored veterans. We’ve got the radical right wing of the Republican Party on “C” Street denying evolution and writing laws for the country of Uganda calling for the execution of gays and the imprisonment of their families and friends. A single district in Minnesota has seen seven suicides in the last year by young victims of intolerance, while Tom Emmer, a virulently anti-LGBT candidate, supported by the “C” Street gang and the Tea Party, seeks the governor's chair. The Michigan Assistant Attorney General Andrew Shirvell is virtually stalking Chris Armstrong, the gay student assembly president at the University of Michigan.
Half of all teen suicides are the result of kids being tormented about their sexuality … either by their preacher, priest, rabbi or imam telling them that they are going to burn in hell for eternity … or because they are bullied to death by surrogates who have been brainwashed by those same preachers, priests, rabbis and imams.
While science has demonstrated sufficient anecdotal evidence to establish that sexuality is determined during gestation and that it is not an individual’s conscious choice, the religions of the world continue to ignore the science and inculcate the most vicious levels of intolerance, prejudice and discrimination into their congregations every day. It is nothing short of church sponsored terrorism for the 30,000,000 GLTB citizens of this country. While the rest of the civilized world has grown to recognize the scientific evidence and embraced the GLTB community, the USA, fueled by the prejudice from the pulpit and aided and abetted by legislators and educators, has slipped back into the Dark Ages.
The world is not flat and the sun does not revolve around Planet Earth! African Americans do not carry the mark of Cain and evolution and DNA are sound science!
Bullying, intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, discrimination … it’s time to call it what it is … church sponsored, and legislatively abetted terrorism! If we are serious about ending it … we need to start there!
Jon Michael
2888 Rush Branch Road
Bradfordsville, KY 40009
270-337-2000
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Posted by Manabi on October 28, 2010 at 9:37 PM · Report this
369
Bullying … Church Sponsored Terrorism
When are we going to finally point the finger at the root cause of discrimination and bullying in this country? How many more teens have to shoot themselves, hang themselves or jump off bridges? How many kids have to be pistol whipped, crucified and hung on a fence to linger and die?
We’ve got Fred Phelps running around the country viciously picketing the funerals of our honored veterans. We’ve got the radical right wing of the Republican Party on “C” Street denying evolution and writing laws for the country of Uganda calling for the execution of gays and the imprisonment of their families and friends. A single district in Minnesota has seen seven suicides in the last year by young victims of intolerance, while Tom Emmer, a virulently anti-LGBT candidate, supported by the “C” Street gang and the Tea Party, seeks the governor's chair. The Michigan Assistant Attorney General Andrew Shirvell is virtually stalking Chris Armstrong, the gay student assembly president at the University of Michigan.
Half of all teen suicides are the result of kids being tormented about their sexuality … either by their preacher, priest, rabbi or imam telling them that they are going to burn in hell for eternity … or because they are bullied to death by surrogates who have been brainwashed by those same preachers, priests, rabbis and imams.
While science has demonstrated sufficient evidence to establish that sexuality is determined during gestation and that it is not an individual’s conscious choice, the religions of the world continue to ignore the science and inculcate the most vicious levels of intolerance, prejudice and discrimination into their congregations every day.
It is nothing short of church sponsored terrorism for the 30,000,000 LGBT citizens of this country. While the rest of the civilized world has grown to recognize the scientific evidence and embraced the LGBT community, the USA, fueled by the prejudice from the pulpit and aided and abetted by legislators and educators, has slipped back into the Dark Ages.
The world is not flat and the sun does not revolve around Planet Earth! African Americans do not carry the mark of Cain and evolution and DNA are sound science!
Bullying, intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, discrimination … it’s time to call it what it is … church sponsored, and legislatively abetted terrorism! If we are serious about ending it … we need to start there!
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Posted by Manabi on October 28, 2010 at 9:44 PM · Report this
370
@ 365: Yeah, and then the teachers who've been looking the other way decide to crack down. I was there, beat the crap out of someone who'd been picking on me for four years, and got suspended. Not once did anything happen when I was found bloody, when I had an ulcer at the age of 16 from what I was going through, when I missed ten weeks of school in one year to avoid the harassment and beatings. But when I finally stood up for myself, THEN it became a problem.
Posted by Won't Take It on November 1, 2010 at 7:14 PM · Report this
371
Dear Christians,
If you have actually read the Bible (and even sort of understand it), you would understand that it is not promoting any negative connotation towards gay people. The part of the bible that discusses gay men, is in the same book where instructions for sacrificing animals are given, women are considered just as unclean when they are menstruating, and we are instructed not to eat pork. In today's society we do not follow any of these rituals or rules. Do you lock your daughters away when they menstruate, sacrifice animals at an alter, and refuse to eat bacon? No, then why do you continue to believe that the Bible tells you that gay = bad? You are misinterpreting the bible to promote your own bigoted and hateful agendas, something which, by the way, is the exact opposite of the intended message of the Bible. The Lord would not support these attitudes or behavior and it is shameful for you to use His name when promoting them.

Dear Non-Christians,
Many of us Christians support gay rights. It is possible to have a strong faith in God and support gay rights. In fact, I go to a Lutheran church where our pastor gave a sermon promoting the rights of gay people. Please realize that not all of us support this hateful agenda and some of us actually work towards promoting equal rights for gay people.
Posted by chrisychick on November 7, 2010 at 6:14 AM · Report this
372
I'll consider accepting responsibilty for school bullying when I hear men who have "sex" with men accept some responsibility for the 15,000 plus men in my city of San Francisco (including four personal friends) who did not make it to age 50 because of AIDS.

Gibbons in SF