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She Will Not Be Ignored

February 10, 2011

By Dan Savage

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Joe Newton

I've written before, but I didn't hear back from you—probably because my e-mail didn't contain flogging or santorum or whatever. But I won't be IGNORED, Dan.

I'm a 32-year-old female. Second marriage, two kids: one kid with my ex and one with the man I cheated on my ex with (my current husband). My problem: A year ago, I found my "first love" on a social network. I'd been looking for him off and on for more than 16 years. This person was a jerk who left me for one of my friends back in high school. But he was and still is the love of my life. Always has been. Always will be. He is not married, has never been married, and has no children. We began an affair about seven months after finding each other. My marriage, my second marriage, had been rocky before this. My second husband, of three years, stopped having sex with me after I became pregnant, and this continued after our child was born. We tried counseling. It didn't help. In no way am I using this as an excuse. I know what I've done is wrong. But I also have a pretty bad track record and have cheated on every man I've ever been with, except for my first love.

This man, my first love, is the worst person in the world for me. Yet I'm in love with him. I have ALWAYS been in love with him. He wants me to leave my white-collar husband for him, a very blue-collar guy. I live in a nice home in the suburbs; my first love lives in a small apartment in the city. Five months after we began having sex with each other, my current husband found out. Instead of leaving me, he has turned into a different man: extremely loving and attentive. He says this experience has made him realize how much he loves me and that he doesn't want to lose me.

My other problem: I didn't begin this affair to get my second husband's attention. I began it because I'm in love with my first love and always have been. My husband knows of my deep feelings for my "first." I mention divorce often, but it falls on deaf ears. I want to do what is best for my kids—and that would be staying right where I am. But I feel my only chance for "true" love, if there is such a thing, is passing me by. I've never felt for anyone as I do for this man. Every man who has come into my life AFTER him knew about him and knew that if he ever came back for me, I was gone. This includes my current husband. Dan, pull out all the stops on this one, as you famously do, and please tell me what to do.

Serial Cheater In Love

I've read what you've written before, SCIL, but I didn't respond because I didn't have much to say to you and I still don't. I had the same reaction reading your e-mail today that I had reading all the other e-mails you've sent. My reaction is a little selfish, and I'm a little embarrassed to share it with you. But you keep pressing me, SCIL, and so here it is:

THIS BITCH CAN GET LEGALLY MARRIED AND I CAN'T?!?!

Sorry, sorry, sorry. That was cunty of me—nowhere near the level of respectful professionalism that people expect of me—and so now I'm going to have to make amends by scrounging up some of that advice shit you're after. But I'm going to offer you my advice on one condition: You don't write to me ever again.

Okay!

You say you've cheated on every man you've ever been with, with the exception of your "first love," SCIL. You seem to be engaged in a little circular reasoning/magical thinking here—you've concluded that he must be the love of your life because you didn't cheat on him, and you didn't cheat on him because he's the love of your life. No. You didn't cheat on him, SCIL, because you didn't get around to it. You two broke up when you were 15 years old. If you'd been with him a little longer, you would've cheated on him like you've cheated on everybody else.

If you leave your current husband and break up your first child's second home and your second child's first home, it won't be long before you get around to cheating on the love of your life, too. Because you're a cheater, SCIL, a habitual, serial cheater. You're precisely the kind of person who shouldn't make monogamous commitments.

Or get married. Or have children.

So what should you do? Stay? Go? Frankly, SCIL, I don't give a fuck what you do. Stay or go, it's not going to make a fuck of a lot of difference. Your personal life is a mess, SCIL, and it always will be. Because, you see, wherever you go, there you are.

That said: If your current husband doesn't mind being cheated on, if he can put up with your affairs and wants to put your children first, then I think you should stay with him for the sake of your kids. They deserve whatever stability and continuity you can provide for them between infidelities. Again, if you leave your current husband for the love of your life, SCIL, it won't be long before you're cheating on your third husband and preparing to uproot your kids a third/second time. I know it, you know it, everyone out there reading this knows it, even your current husband seems to know it.

So just stay put, okay?

My girlfriend of two years, my first real relationship, broke up with me a month ago. Although I felt like shit for most of that month, we somehow managed to struggle through to a close friendship. I wouldn't say I'm entirely over her, but I understand why it happened and that we won't be getting back together. All in all, I've felt like we've both been pretty mature and things are going well.

The complication: We still find each other attractive and we work very well together sexually. So she proposed an FWB arrangement, and I said yes. We laid down ground rules—we are not together, we are just friends who fuck, so no "I love you," no commitments, no expectations—and we started having hot sex. Is this foolhardy? We both know that I'd prefer something more. So the question remains: Should we keep fucking?

Can't Recall Acronym Procedure

How are you going to feel when your ex-girlfriend/ current-fuck-buddy finds a new boyfriend and ends your FWB arrangement? If you can honestly answer, "I'll be happy for her," then keep fucking—but don't forget to ask for your balls back when she dumps you that second time.

If you can't say that and you decide to keep fucking the ex anyway, CRAP, you wouldn't be the first lovesick dumpee who agreed to enter into an FWB arrangement with an ex. If the short-term rewards (all that hot sex) and the potential long-term payoff (getting back together) make the risk seem worthwhile, then keep fucking.

Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.

mail@savagelove.net

This week on  Questionland.com:  Relationship in the toilet? Ready for divorce? Want to try to save the thing? An army of divorce lawyers and couples counselors answers your questions about “Making Up and Breaking Up.”

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Comments (169) RSS

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For C.R.A.P., I do think that while you continue your FWB situation, you should try and date other people too. Maybe you're different than I am, but if I were in your position I would not be able to separate the feelings for the Ex, and I would still "think" we are together even though it is officially over. So maybe that would help you to keep things in perspective.

Plus, it will make her jealous! (Aren't I mature!!)

Posted by gayBoiNYC on February 8, 2011 at 6:12 PM · Report

And for S.C.I.L. - what a self-involved, narcissistic jerk. She feels ENTITLED to be answered by Dan?!? And claims he is IGNORING her, without any regard for the mountains of mail he gets? She things Dan has a responsibility to answer her mundane letter just because she is a cheating jerk?

I feel sorry for all the men she torments.

Posted by gayBoiNYC on February 8, 2011 at 6:16 PM · Report

3 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy

win

Posted by iheartdan on February 8, 2011 at 6:18 PM · Report

I love the advice to the first one, SCIL, cause Dan said what I wish I could say to serial cheaters... and what I wish an advice columnist would say. Go Dan!!

Posted by kitten on February 8, 2011 at 6:20 PM · Report

Dan, your comments to SCIL are dead on. Up to and including "THIS BITCH CAN GET LEGALLY MARRIED AND I CAN'T?!?!"

I read the rest of your advice, think your points are good, but, really, I don't care about anything after that. We are (being forced to) "preserving" and "protecting" marriage for that shit to happen?

Posted by dcpa22 on February 8, 2011 at 6:33 PM · Report

Whatever Dan is paid to read letters like the first one, it isn't enough.

Posted by dianasquiver on February 8, 2011 at 6:39 PM · Report

Sorry Dan, but in the ratings between you and SCIL, you are NOT the one who's selfish.

I guess she deserves some credit for at least considering the others involved, but then again, it sounds as if she's just as concerned with losing her cushy lifestyle as she is about her family.

Maybe she'll change. Maybe there'll be world peace. You'll probably be getting married first.

We can only hope... And keep trying!!

Posted by gbrooks on February 8, 2011 at 6:43 PM · Report

Re SCIL – having the Question of the Day on the SL app appear several weeks later as the lead letter in (and comprising the bulk of) the column is kind of a letdown, and maybe an indication that someone is spreading himself a little thin?

Posted by jaspgh on February 8, 2011 at 7:08 PM · Report

As someone whose parents "stayed together for the kids," I think that may have been one of the worst decisions either of them made. That wasn't stability. And it took me a long time after the fact to realise that that wasn't love.

Posted by CoffeeandCigs on February 8, 2011 at 7:08 PM · Report

That first letter sounds like a deluded ex-friend of mine. She creates a multitude of dipshit "dramas" and then when she ends up making a "mess" of her relationships, she rings or texts me in London, UK (she lives in Olympia) to do the "woe is me" and ask for "support" and my words to her never change: "you're either with your husband or you're not with him. Make a choice." This falls on deaf ears and I've tried to get rid of her 4 TIMES!!! Hopefully, this time, after I was once again accused of "not being supportive" when she texted me at 3:00 am to tell me about fucking some guy she "had a crush on" and I texted back: "tell someone else."
That letter REALLY sounds like her but her situation is slightly different in players but the delusions are your basic drama Queen/King, "how-do-I-get-into-these-messes?" type personality.

Posted by Frederica Bimble on February 8, 2011 at 7:38 PM · Report

@11 I've never thought I was alone in my personal experiences, but it's comforting to read the exact thing that once happened to me happen to someone else. I mean, it sucks that this stuff goes on, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but the fact is there are people out there like that and dealing with their bs is never fun, nor beneficial. "We broke up. Respect my goddamn boundaries already or gtfo (of my life)."

Posted by Jackjack on February 8, 2011 at 8:01 PM · Report

Great response and advice to serial cheater in love, but there's something I'd like to add. It is possible for a serial cheater to reform herself. I know because I've done it.

First of all, she needs to realize that the person she is now is not the person she was in high school, and the same goes for the supposed "love of her life". So what this means is that her feelings are really based on a fantasy. She's confusing the feelings of "being in love" with actual love. Even though we call it "love" or even "true love" it's really just infatuation. It's a hormone-caused illusion, really. Affairs are really about fantasy, not real love.

Real love is you've already been sharing your life with someone, you know each other better than anyone else could, the honeymoon phase has worn off, and you still want to be together. When you have real love, you don't want to screw that up for some brain chemical induced fantasy.

So what do you do? Well you know you have a natural tendency, maybe stronger than most, to become infatuated so you need to take precautions - maybe more precautions than most married people. You should have NO contact with any exes. Some people can remain friends with exes but not people like me or you. And never be alone with someone you might be attracted to or put yourself in a situation where you might be tempted. In short, don't be stupid. If you find yourself becoming infatuated with someone new, reduce contact and spend more time with your husband. Also, tell your husband. Just knowing he knows can cool things off and make you realize you don't have to act on every feeling. In matters of love, it's still important to use your brain.

Posted by FormerSerialCheater on February 8, 2011 at 8:08 PM · Report

To #9: I for one don't care if it's recycled, it's one of my all-time favorite Letters of the Day and I'm glad to see it reach a wider audience!

Posted by Pope Buck I on February 8, 2011 at 8:11 PM · Report

I'm with @1. If he can fuck the ex and still be social enough with other people to have a life and possibly meet someone new, then no harm done.

Posted by EricaP on February 8, 2011 at 8:24 PM · Report

@9 - Agreed. Only 2 letters and 1 of them was a SLLOTD weeks ago?! Totally weak!

Posted by nyker on February 8, 2011 at 8:41 PM · Report

I'm backing @1 CRAP and am going one further: it's not a FWB relationship unless you're both dating other people. If one of you is in a committed monogamous relationship that you tell other people, especially your partner, is FWB, you're both going to get hurt. If both of you are together and tell other people it's just FWB, it's not just FWB and that kind of lying isn't good for anyone.

Posted by The Max on February 8, 2011 at 8:50 PM · Report

The phrase "But what about the children?!" has never been more appropriate.

Posted by sadini on February 8, 2011 at 8:55 PM · Report

To CRAP,
Start dating others while you can keep her as a FWB. 1) You won't feel pressured to try to sleep with those others while you can get release with FWB, so you may make better (i.e. not lust-b beclouded) choices in your dating; 2) With other women interested in you, you can relax and let go of FWB emotionally, which will free you up to enjoy completely uninhibited sex with FWB. Bang the crap out of her, CRAP; you'll end up leaving with fonder memories of her than you have now!

Posted by Been there, done her on February 8, 2011 at 9:08 PM · Report

Awsome answers but only 2 letters?

Dan may have finally convinced me on gay marriage with this bitch.

As for the FWB: Agreed he should fuck everything in sight. It is a whole lot easier to get over the last good thing when you are already fucking the next good thing.

Posted by Professor on February 8, 2011 at 9:36 PM · Report

I hated that first letter the first time I read it. It feels like a waste of space. Dan's response, OTOH, yes. I've always pointed out the hot-mess, quickie marriages of Britney Spears, Larry King, et al, are legal, & laughable, yet my pals who are gay & been together for decades can't wed. Messed up.

No sympathy for that spoiled-sounding drama queen, at all, period. Her kids are gonna need some major therapy. I've whined before at re-run LOTD's, but that one in particular..grrrr. The gnashing of teeth ensues. No more words for her.

& FWB guy..when you ask yourself how you'd feel if she hooked up w/ another guy, be honest. I agree that post-relationship sex can be hot, but your feelings are still tender & vulnerable. Tread with care.

Posted by Eva Hopkins

on February 8, 2011 at 9:49 PM · Report

Dan's right about the first letter. That woman might consider trying meditation/yoga/other mindfulness practices. I know that sounds woo-woo and new-agey, but those techniques are designed to help you pay attention to the present moment and dispassionately take stock of what is an isn't making you happy. As opposed to constantly chasing imaginary future experiences that will give you exactly what you want & make all your problems to away. Which is what she's doing. Might help, might not, but it's better to try something than resign herself to dragging her kids through endless failed relationships.

Posted by Gudrun Brangwen on February 8, 2011 at 10:11 PM · Report

*sigh*

People who are not monogamous should just figure it out and get over their shit already. I've never been able to remain monogamous in a relationship. But I married a man who's also non-monogamous. We've had our spats, as non-monogamy can be messy, but we haven't left a wake of ex-marriages to people we promised to be monogamous to, let alone dragged several children through that mess.

For as bitchy as she is though, she has somehow found herself in the perfect position. She's married to an attentive, stable man who loves their kids AND has been ok with her sleeping with someone else for months. A simple talk about polyamory, and she's got a marriage and a fun sex life on the side. What's not to like?

Oh, and shut up bitch for calling him the "worst person in the world" for her and then complaining that he's poor without an actual "worst" flaw in sight. Fuck off.

Posted by Marle on February 8, 2011 at 10:16 PM · Report

Posted by Marle on February 8, 2011 at 10:17 PM · Report

The FWB situation is simple. If CRAP is screwing his ex while waiting for/trying to find a new relationship partner, he's golden. If he's screwing his ex while waiting for his ex to want a relationship with him again, then he's an idiot.

Posted by biggie on February 8, 2011 at 11:39 PM · Report

I suspect that he may be the "worst person in the world for her" because he dumped her once already.

Posted by MorbidMiss on February 8, 2011 at 11:42 PM · Report

First its me C.R.A.P.

Second: i can say that i would be happy were she to find another. that i want to/will be looking for another relationship not just hoping for my ex/fwb/friend to decide she wants to be my GF.

Third: the other half of the question; in many ways the more important half; is what rules do we need to ensure that things don't go sour? Said question seems to have gotten edited out and while i cede that Dan knows more about the column than i do it still seems important.

so given that what do we and i need to do, what rules should we (and other FWBs) establish to make sure things stay good? more generally what are the rules for a good FWB? Thanks

Posted by CRAP on February 9, 2011 at 12:11 AM · Report

"Serial Cheater in Love" sounds like too much of a self-absorbed asshole to even be capable of actual love. I feel sorry for her children and hope they grow up to be strong and self-reliant despite their absolute dipshit of a selfish mother.

I have no sympathy for shitty parents.

Posted by Amanda on February 9, 2011 at 12:30 AM · Report

@27: It helps to be actual, genuine friends. I also think you don't need any specific set of rules as long as you both are clear on things. For instance, you could agree to talk to each other about other people you're dating or having sex with, or to not talk about them, as long as you agree.

The main rule, though, is to not try to exclude all emotions. You will have feelings for each other, that's what friends do, especially FWB. It's useful to develop ways of communicating that to each other, e.g., "You're such a great friend," "I care about you," since you've said you don't want to say "I love you."

Posted by BlackRose on February 9, 2011 at 1:53 AM · Report

For reruns I think SCIL is a great choice. I really enjoyed that comment thread. I doubt she'll read this one though, since she's either in total denial or still working through therapy from the last time 200+ people tore her ego to shreds.

Posted by Lynx on February 9, 2011 at 2:26 AM · Report

@27: Remember to regularly check in with yourself about how you feel about the arrangement. It's great that you feel strong and level headed about it at the moment, but breakup emotions tend to oscillate wildly from the 'I'm over her' end of the spectrum to 'I'll never love again', so remember to look after yourself.
However, there's a lot to be said for winding a relationship down, too. Maybe the sex is necessary at the moment, perhaps it'll actually help you get over her.

Posted by melbzig on February 9, 2011 at 2:46 AM · Report

@30: I often wonder how many LWs are totally shell shocked after they're ripped to shreds on Slog!

Posted by melbzig on February 9, 2011 at 2:48 AM · Report

@ 9 I have to agree, very disappointing. I have noticed this is quite frequent, especially recently. I wish I could be as positive as 14 but I clearly don't have enough of a life.

While I agree with most of the advice given to SCIL, I think that this kind of person is where Dans logic falls down. The world does not divide into the monogamous and the non-monogamous so simply. She is a cheater, I am sure part of the enjoyment and satisfaction she derives from this is the cheating, something you can't get in an agreed non-mongamous relationship. If she didn't enter into monogamous relationships she couldn't do this. I really don't believe it would solve anything if she was in an open relationships, she would just find the way to cheat in that one too. I also don't think she is unique in this respect.

I think some people are just unable to have a functional relationship. She is delusional, her true love? went out for almost no time when she was 15 and treated her like shit? I take back delusional, she is bat shit crazy. She needs to get into therapy and try to create stability for her children. Also stop being so fucking selfish and put her children's wellbeing ahead of her own for once. Based on this she should stay with the current husband, since he will be able to pay the huge quantity of money required for this process

Posted by Adam_west on February 9, 2011 at 2:49 AM · Report

First time commenter Dan but I had to say something. There was NOTHING cunty about being pissed that she (first letter bitch who demanded your attention like the self centered bitch she is) can be married and you can't. I'm going to use her as an example when people talk about protecting marriage from "the gays". Who's protecting marriage from this bitch?

Man I'm all kinds of black-girl-upset right now ...

Posted by j.alannah on February 9, 2011 at 4:18 AM · Report

Posted by j.alannah on February 9, 2011 at 4:19 AM · Report

I don't get LOTD, so this is good.

I heart Dan. I'm waiting, after many years, to read something I don't agree with.

Posted by Johnny D. on February 9, 2011 at 4:43 AM · Report

for CRAP -- really important rule: wear a condom, no matter what your birth control strategy was before. almost as important rule: don't SLEEP together. Just have sex and leave. As the "still in love" party in a FWB relationship with an ex, no matter how much we said "we're not together", the feelings took over when we were hanging out all the time (as friends!) and sleeping together, (just like we used to!). It made things much too complicated.

Posted by singing cynic on February 9, 2011 at 4:49 AM · Report

@22. As a 10-year practitioner of yoga, I have to express my serious doubts that yoga or meditation would make a difference with people like SCIL.

In some of the less serious yoga places, entitled drama queens like SCIL (of both sexes) still manage to make it "all about them", whether it is vomiting their personal issues all over the class, or constant groaning and demanding of the teacher's attention. And finally, the class can just become another opportunity to cheat and find affairs - maybe with the instructor.

It wouldn't hurt to try of course, and so it's still good advice in case it helps.

Posted by gayBoiNYC on February 9, 2011 at 5:13 AM · Report

SCIL - Better yet, leave the kids with your current husband, get your tubes tied so you don't wreck any more little lives, and go do whatever.

Posted by Just a Thought on February 9, 2011 at 5:20 AM · Report

CRAP, let me be brutally blunt, like you father would be if this nation still had fathers: she has actually just given you notice that when a more preferable mate appears, and she can snag that more-enticing-than-you male, she is going to stop fucking you, and start fucking him.

If that relationship craters, though, she will then call you up, as you are her "dick under glass", which she will break free every time she is lonely or needing some emotional buck-up.

You need to understand that she sees you as a back-up while she sifts through all other males to see if she can get a better deal. That will never, ever change, however; even if you "get back together" and even marry, at some level she will always be thinking (increasingly unreasonably as she ages), that she settles for you, even though someone better may still come along.

Don't be that guy. Find another woman. I would dump her and move on.

Posted by --The fatherly voice from the ether on February 9, 2011 at 5:25 AM · Report

CRAP, I would advise against your FWB set-up with your ex because by using each other as your rebound relationship (which is what you two are doing), you are losing the benefits (the exciting single time where you have a good excuse to date a lot without worrying about intense romantic entanglements) while still having the drawbacks (rebounds only delay the process of mourning the lost relationship, when the rebound ends the mourning comes roaring back, for both relationships). Find another great rebound girl out there, don't cheat yourself out of the exciting fun.

Posted by matzahballsoup on February 9, 2011 at 6:06 AM · Report

Serial Cheater in Love has, as I like to think of it, "Bad boy Syndrome." This guy supposedly isn't good for her, he doesn't make enough money, he entered an affair with her....but she wants to throw away someone stable who seems to care about her.

Sounds like S.C.I.L. needs to get busy holding down a decent job or get a hobby that takes up more time that cheating does.

Posted by Siruya on February 9, 2011 at 6:22 AM · Report

I don't like when commenters complain about Dan using the same letters from lotd. Dan's not obligated to write anything. Maybe if he's spreading himself too thin and needs to cut something, then he'll just stop lotd. How horrible would that be? I like having Savage daily. If it's the same Savage I had a couple of weeks ago, well, better than nothing.

Posted by S fan in SD on February 9, 2011 at 6:45 AM · Report

@13
"she needs to realize that the person she is now is not the person she was in high school"

normally I'd agree with this statement, but in this dumb bitch's case, she IS the same person: a self-obsessed drama addict. I agree that she's not in love with her "first love", she's addicted to the chemical hormonal reactions he caused and the ensuing drama of his douchey behavior.

still, i can't get too mad at her. like i said when this letter first ran, oh you silly junkie, what the fuck have you done to your life?

Posted by Catface Meowmers on February 9, 2011 at 6:45 AM · Report

That first letter is possibly the best SLLotD pull ever (well, so far). Shame on you haters: would you prefer to go back to the days before SLLotD, where you had to wait a whole week to see two or three letters? The occasional repeat (hell, the regular repeat) is worth the trade.

Posted by John Horstman on February 9, 2011 at 6:48 AM · Report

@43 - " Dan's not obligated to write anything."

Huh? Actually, he is cuz it's, ya know, his job.

Posted by nyker on February 9, 2011 at 7:06 AM · Report

"I will not be ignored!" is exactly what Glenn Close snapped at Michael Douglas in "Fatal Attraction" -- so unless she's brandishing a meat cleaver or boiling a bunny, I doubt she's worth a whole lot of attention.

Oh, and I think Dan's mistaken when he says people expect a "level of respectful professionalism" from him. He almost never provides it, so why would we expect it?

Posted by wayne on February 9, 2011 at 7:07 AM · Report

It was worth Dan's time to answer just in case he's made life better for SCIL's kids....I just hope that if she does leave, her current husband has the balls to fight for primary custody.

Posted by StrangerFan on February 9, 2011 at 7:19 AM · Report

@46, actually, Dan gets to choose *who* he writes back to.

And the first letter is such a fucking clusterfuck I can only imagine why he didn't write back the first time. This woman doesn't want to hear what he really has to say, and obviously has no emotional maturity to make her own decisions.

Posted by miss-G on February 9, 2011 at 7:32 AM · Report

Spot on response to SCIL Dan... particularly with her having kids. 2 kids with 2 guys and she is banging another and writing woe is me to Dan. I cant stand people like her, not only because they make dating hell, but because eventually her ignored kids are going to be in school bullying my kids.

Posted by stormcrow on February 9, 2011 at 7:33 AM · Report

@46, actually, Dan gets to choose *who* he writes back to.

And I can only imagine, with what a clusterfuck that first letter was, why he didn't want to write back. This woman has no emotional maturity and probably wasn't happy with what he wrote back anyway.

Posted by miss-G on February 9, 2011 at 7:34 AM · Report

regarding crap, i participated in fwb after our relationship ended, and i moved out. it was fun while we both dated others, and created a necessary release. rules: a la seinfeld- no overnighters, no i love yous, just sex, and leave. be protected from std's, and above all have fun.

Posted by seasoned on February 9, 2011 at 7:59 AM · Report

SCIL should not be with anyone, she has no respect for others and deserves nothing until she stops putting herself ahead of all the others in her life.

To anyone with SCIL. I say DTMFA.

Posted by Kylere on February 9, 2011 at 8:02 AM · Report

@ 38 - Meditation is to be done ALONE and yes, indeed, it is helpful for every single person on this Earth. Sure you can do yoga in a group and some even meditate, usually for guidance - but to achieve a heightened sense of clarity, being at one with "all there is" does not need the presence of other people. So, yes, it could be VERY helpful for this woman and people like her.

Posted by Frederica Bimble on February 9, 2011 at 8:18 AM · Report

Wow the lady in the first letter is a real piece of shit. This woman should have had her vagina filled with concrete years ago. I feel bad for her kids.

Posted by AbeF on February 9, 2011 at 8:22 AM · Report

@ 40 - bitter much? It's a big ol' world and just because you sit around bitching and spewing your misogyny doesn't mean the world actually operates like that.
Like yourself and then love yourself and then you will see that "women" are the LEAST of the "problems" you've created for yourself.
Geesh.

Posted by Frederica Bimble on February 9, 2011 at 8:23 AM · Report

Anyone who doesn't normally read SLOG and thus never saw the first letter a while back in Savage Love letter of the day, here's the link with all the comments... no punches were pulled there either:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…

Posted by Urgutha Forka on February 9, 2011 at 8:27 AM · Report

40: You are treated poorly by a gal careless of your feelings. Get out.

Frederica: "It's a big ol' world and just because you sit around bitching and spewing your misogyny doesn't mean the world actually operates like that. Like yourself and then love yourself and then you will see that "women" are the LEAST of the "problems" you've created for yourself."

Right. (Said in soothing tone)Frederica, you need to stop drinking so much coffee. It makes you stupid.

Posted by The uncle's voice from the ether who thinks Frederica is nut on February 9, 2011 at 8:46 AM · Report

@27, CRAP, one thing you might try is to propose sexual activities you didn't dare bring up in the relationship. If she shoots you down, so what? And just getting used to asking for what you really want in bed (and encouraging your partner to ask for what she wants) -- that's always a good exercise, good practice for when you're in a serious relationship in the future.

Posted by EricaP on February 9, 2011 at 8:59 AM · Report

@40: right on. great job of painting a very clear picture of how things might look farther down the line. sure it's all fun and sexy now, but something is being compromised. "don't be that guy"- good advice. didn't realize it till now but the two letters, although radically different, and from opposite perspectives, are about the same issue. advice to CRAP is also advice to SCIL's current husband. DON'T BE THAT GUY.

Posted by gonzo on February 9, 2011 at 9:07 AM · Report

Disagree, Dan. SCIL didn't cheat on "the love of her life" because he cheated on her first. That's also why he IS the love of her life. My advice to the husband is to cheat like hell, and then this cheating bitch will find you wildly attractive.

Posted by ggg on February 9, 2011 at 9:24 AM · Report

To all the complainers about the SLLOTD recycling: remember, between the print newspapers and the websites Savage Love is featured in, the readership of the regular column is vastly larger than the readership of Slog, Blogtown, and the Savage Love app. I wish I knew the numbers, but this woman just got humiliated in front of many, many, many more readers than she was a few weeks ago.

I'm not in the habit of rejoicing in other people's public humiliation, but she - and every other person out there just like her who reads that and thinks, "Oh! That's just like me! I wonder how many people I know will think I wrote that." - justly deserves it.

Posted by This time a rerun was justified on February 9, 2011 at 9:31 AM · Report

SCIL needs to take a hard look at what "in love" really means. Whattawhore.

Posted by Marcell on February 9, 2011 at 9:39 AM · Report

Hey CRAP, take it from someone who's been there, this arrangement is a bad idea. What would be an amazing boost for your self-esteem and emotional health is for YOU to break of this relationship with HER. That's right YOU are the DUMPER. I know you want her, but don't you want someone who wants you back? Forget the friend thing, you're too close and needy right now. Break off the FWB arrangment, tell her you don't want to see her for 6 months at ALL. And, I agree with @1 that making her jealous is a VERY satisfying bonus. Now... you just have to be strong enough to do it.

Posted by ggg on February 9, 2011 at 9:40 AM · Report

All I can say is SCIL must be one hot piece of ass for guys to put up with her crap...

Posted by jasha on February 9, 2011 at 10:17 AM · Report

Anyone also notice that in SCIL's case husband no. 2 is the "mistress" (not sure what the word for a guy is) from her first marriage. Sounds like he's getting a little "what goes around comes around".

I'm always mystified by people that start relationships off with cheating and then are shocked that their co-cheater later cheats on them too! Yeah, you didn't see that in their character.

Sure, SCIL is a selfish bitch, but I'm not so sure that husband #2 isn't getting exactly what he deserves as well. The only real victims are the poor kids!

Posted by KL on February 9, 2011 at 10:18 AM · Report

@ 27 - Personally, the only thing I'm worried about is that you didn't give yourself more time before entering this FWB arrangement. Like 6 months. Enough to get over her first.

As it is, it does sound a lot like 41 says, using your ex as your rebound. That can lead to a lot of trouble and heartache, which you might not be aware of since it's your first serious relationship.

My advice: Cool it off a bit. See her less often. And as others have said, date/fuck other people, suggest whatever fantasies you have when you're with her that you didn't dare to do before, talk together about the rules and limits you're confortable with (no one can decide that for you) and always be honest with yourself about how you feel.

Posted by Ricardo on February 9, 2011 at 10:38 AM · Report

As someone whose parents "stayed together for the kids," I think that may have been one of the worst decisions either of them made. That wasn't stability. And it took me a long time after the fact to realise that that wasn't love.

Word.

Posted by truthspeaker on February 9, 2011 at 10:43 AM · Report

for crap.
your relationship isn`t over yet, your still in the process of breaking up, It`s still going to end the same way though, with you being heartsick, so you might as well getting started moving on now and find someone else to take your mind off the somewhat selfish ex

Posted by hector_j on February 9, 2011 at 10:46 AM · Report

CRAP -- So long as you're still wishing/hoping for more from your ex -- that you'll get back together, even if you logically understand that you won't or can't, FWB is a BAD idea. Whenever one person wants more, FWB is a bad idea.

It could work out that you find someone else to date/fuck and end the FWB relationship, but more likely since you're not completely emotionally over her, she'll find someone first and break off the FWB. Then you'll feel rejected, like being dumped over again, but you'll probably beat yourself up for it too because you agreed to the FWB relationship in the first place.

Unless you can get to a point where you don't want anything romantically from her, FWB is always going to fail. It will just postpone the break-up sorrow/mourning and make you feel stupid and used all over again.

Posted by KL on February 9, 2011 at 12:06 PM · Report

CRAP, you're better off without the FWB situation with your ex. Use this time to find someone new, not wasting your energy on a realtionship which you already know is a goner.

Frankly, given that your ex knows your emotional needs, it's a little cruel that she still wants to maintain a FWB arrangement. She's not all that, man- find someone better for you, who cares about what you want too.

Posted by kitschnsync on February 9, 2011 at 12:11 PM · Report

@ 27 -- I'm not saying this to be antagonistic, but I think that entering into a FWB relationship with you is pretty selfish of your ex, considering the breakup is so recent and you weren't the one who wanted it. This is just textbook messy breakup stuff. She really didn't give you time to get over her before jumping back into bed with you. Right now you might feel like you're over her and everything is fine, but you're probably still going to have good days and bad days dealing with this. I agree with 67 that a bit of distance is a good idea. It's not the end of the world if you fuck a bit more and you shouldn't beat yourself up for it, but I wouldn't pour a lot of time and energy into developing rules for the FWB arrangement. I think it would be better to focus more on yourself right now.

Posted by Amanda on February 9, 2011 at 12:23 PM · Report

@27 " what rules do we need to ensure that things don't go sour?"

There is no magic bullet for this, but communication comes close.

First off, would you two be friends if you weren't having sex? If the answer is no, start by dropping the friends part and if you're still interested concentrate on setting up a purely sexual relationship, probably on a series-of-one-night-internet-hookups model.

I disagree that overnighters are necessarily off the table, just that it should be about either friendship (too drunk to leave) or sex (too busy).

It is also important (especially with an ex) not to date, unless if you are changing your relationship status. Anything you do as friends should be with your circle, something you'll realistically continue to do together once one of you has coupled off, and preferably both.

That said, make sure you actually are friends. Often times, other romantic entanglements are off the subject list, but if you can't outline the current status of work and family for each other, then you need to catch up or admit you've just become a booty call.

It is best if you are both looking for the next thing at the same level.

I personally recommend early evening sex, followed by definite plans to meet someone new or to go out trolling with a buddy that night. Schedule adequate time but keep to your other commitments.

If you can swing it, she could be the ultimate wingman and consolation prize should you both strike out.

I also think it is best to avoid the concept of using each other for sex. Friends is what you're trying to be, sex is an activity you happen to do together, until such time as it is not. On the other hand, you do have a leg up on other FWBs, because you can sum up with "we used to date", should you ever need to describe your history.

More...

Posted by Human Resources - Benefits Section on February 9, 2011 at 12:26 PM · Report

Oh CRAP! I have had a FWB situation with the woman that helped break up my last relationship. I've been "with her" for two years and while realizing I was in love with her and couldn't stand the fact that she would date other people I still put up with it. Within the past month and a half she started dating someone fairly seriously and we've only been together twice since. I know this is ending for me and I am in terrible pain with a broken heart. If given the opportunity to do it all over again, I'd say no fucking way! Get out while you can!

Posted by lostmyhead on February 9, 2011 at 12:40 PM · Report

@ 60

good pick up... Dan does have a little bit of the 'watch out for fickle bitches' theme going this week.

as far as CRAP goes, being the guy that is used for sex isn't all that bad, better than being the guy who is used for weed and emotional support and gets none...

not that I have any experience with that...

*coughs uncomfortably*

Posted by stormcrow on February 9, 2011 at 1:01 PM · Report

God - 4 words that make me want to vomit when I read it in these kinds of columns: "Love of my Life".

And usually its some dickwad that they're still holding a fuck torch for making the lives of everybody currently in their lives a living hell.

Posted by LZito on February 9, 2011 at 1:07 PM · Report

Uh, everybody, I'm 99% sure that SCIL's "But I won't be IGNORED, Dan" is a joke. As #47 pointed out, it's a paraphrase of a line from Fatal Attraction, but the other half of the joke is that Michael Douglas's character in that movie _is named Dan_.

SCIL may be a self-centered twit who doesn't know the difference between love and drama, but if we're going to condemn her, let it be for that, not for making a funny joke that went over most people's heads (and Dan's too).

Posted by sheepy on February 9, 2011 at 1:29 PM · Report

Re: SCIL
Am I the only person with the intellectual capacity to reason that unhealthy people are attracted to unhealthy people?

Staying with her current husband isn't going to help her kids. I'm pretty sure he's as retarded as she is, otherwise he wouldn't have been attracted to her in the first place, and vice versa. As was pointed out--wherever she goes, there she is. Staying in a situation that was unhealthy from the beginning isn't somehow magically more healthy for her or her kids.

On a side note, I may be giving her too much credit, but I thought she was joking with the "I won't be IGNORED" line.

Yes, she's an asshole, but she needs professional help. She's not a "cheater", she's screwed up emotionally. I'll take a zany guess and say that her parental figures were probably as fucked up as she is.
Maybe some advice to see a therapist and stop romanticizing idiots (including herself) would have been better advice.

Posted by Bad advice for bad people on February 9, 2011 at 1:40 PM · Report

I was almost SCIL. My "true love" was someone I'd been close friends with in my early teens and we shared a kiss once when I was 17. Pretty innocent but as I ventured into the dating world as an adult, and we kept in touch as friends, I was increasingly convinced that I was supposed to be with him and everyone else was just filler. We no longer lived in the same city so it was easy to imagine him as the perfect man to whom no other man could possibly favorably compare. Ever. I married, cheated, divorced, dated some more. All the while believing that if he showed up at my door, I'd drop everything and go anywhere for HIM. The few times in the years after my divorce I did see "true love" guy, he was cautious to let me know he thought of me as a friend, even a little sister and to spell out to me the kind of guy he ACTUALLY was and the kind of women he was ACTUALLY interested in. Thank goodness he didn't take advantage of my obsession and let me break my own stupid heart some more. Eventually, 24 years after we met, he invited me to his wedding on another continent, even insisted on paying the fare because it was so important that I attend. I again played the dumb school girl and convinced myself that I couldn't bear to watch him marry someone he'd only known a year and made every excuse I could think of to get out of it. He never spoke to me again. I met another man and, for the first time, didn't have the specter of the imaginary "true love" figure I'd created pretty much all on my own lurking in the shadows. Now I know myself and have, thanks to my "true friend," who I'll never see again, am able to find out what I've been missing all these years.

Is it going to take another decade for SCIL to snap out of it? Well, since her "true love" is fucking her, it's going to turn out so much worse.

More...

Posted by isokwame on February 9, 2011 at 2:45 PM · Report

The only reason SCIL believes here "first love" is perfect for her and that she'll be in love with him no matter what is because she never hooked up with him. A lot of people like to imagine that the "one that got away" would have been better for them than any of the later ones that didn't, solely because that relationship never got the chance to end up exactly as disappointing as all of the other ones. There's no way this guy could ever live up to the romantic fantasy she's been spinning for all of her adult life.

Posted by El Bruce on February 9, 2011 at 2:54 PM · Report

Wow. I don't really care whom that stupid bitch in letter #1 fucks or fucks over for the rest of her pathetic life... but I do have one thing to tell her:

Get your fucking tubes tied, you selfish twat.

Posted by monkeywithcarkeys on February 9, 2011 at 4:42 PM · Report

Good lord, what an awful woman. She's so fucking narcissistic that she can't even just wreak havoc in her own life--noooo, Dan fucking Savage to acknowledge what a stupid cunt she is.

Also, what the fuck kind of person marries or even dates somone who keeps talking about her stupid true love who, if he shows up, she'll dump you for in a second? I call some bullshit there. Seriously, if I were dating some asshole who said, "you're nice and all, but if Mindy from sophomore English, who is my ONE TRUE LOVE, ever turns up, consider yourself dumped," I rather think I'd say, "speaking as chicago girl from RIGHT THE FUCK NOW, make sure the door hits you on the way out, you pathetic childish fuck." I imagine everyone on this board would say something similar. The "true love" dude must be more amused than any anything else--he dumps her when they're kids and somehow she's his slave for life! He should to rob banks for him or something.

Posted by chicago girl on February 9, 2011 at 4:44 PM · Report

Oops, I meant to write he should get her to rob banks for him. Sheesh.

Posted by chicago girl on February 9, 2011 at 4:55 PM · Report

Spot on, Dan to your comments to SCIL--and, uh, heh-heh...over the years, to me, too.

This is one of many reasons why I love your column! You're straight up front, take no bullshit, and no prisoners! Rock on!

Posted by auntie grizelda on February 9, 2011 at 5:02 PM · Report

I haven't eaten dinner yet, so my mind may be too fuzzy to write about SCIL, and yet I just have to. I can't believe this woman has been pining over a guy who dumped her half her life ago and she made sure everybody knew she'd never gotten over him. I won't even call him a douche because I assume he was also around her age. So, hey, a fickle teen. Not surprised.

She sounds like a human version of a dog that really needs to chase a car. Oh, lookit, I want that red one. When the dog manages to catch up to the car, all the fun is gone. It's just a stupid car. Until a blaze of a different colour speeds by and the dog is once again distracted and compelled to chase it, to win the prize, leaving the car the dog had been so wild over moments earlier.

Yet, all along, the dog can't give up hope that it'll find the One. True. Perfect. (Love) Car, the one that ::shnuffles with sad puppy dog eyes filled with mock tears:: ABANDONED THE DOG all those years ago. But, wait, what's that turning around the corner. It's -- it's -- THE CAR. And it stops to let the dog into the car. The dog is beside itself with excitement. And just to emphasize how it must be TWU WUV, the car never let anybody else ride in it (okay, so I'm really stretching it to include the lack of marriage), which means that it was meant to be all along.

Still, the dog isn't completely over the abandonment, calling the car a "jerk". And, to make the decision to stay with the car now more awkward, the car doesn't even sleep in a pretty, properly heated garage (this is a VERY important thing to the dog, twu wuv or not). It's more like a carport. How will the dog ever cope. Can the dog allow itself to be subjected to such a rough existence. And what of the other cars, including the last one the dog had caught. There are pretty collars and leashes and puppies that the dog is going to abandon. But, no, that doesn't matter, not where THE CAR is concerned.

Yeah, TL:DR (and awful crack!fic on my part), but OMFG, SCIL needs to GROW UP. High school was 16 years ago. This guy was no prize then and he's no prize now. Which makes me wonder if he's using her obsession over him so that he won't seem like a loser who's not able to attract or keep a woman. As for her current guy, he seems to be behaving as if he'll be seen as a loser too if he can't manage to hold on to her, so he's become a sweetheart instead of dumping her. Both guys are delusional because she's NO prize.

Even worse, in the front row seats are the poor kids who are witnessing this. Who knows what kind of whacko behaviours they're going to emulate when they grow up. SCIL needs to face reality. She has children and responsibilities. But somehow I don't think she will. Until the next time (oh, I can see Dan groaning, "Please shoot me now") when she writes, demanding that Dan read the latest craziness in a mockery of marriage, etc., etc. and fix it to her liking.

More...

Posted by Helenka (also a Canuck) on February 9, 2011 at 5:06 PM · Report

SCIL is crazy. She looked for her "first love" on the internet so this crisis in her 2nd marriage was totally precipitated by her. I think she needs drama to exist.

I don't think the problem is monogamy, either. I don't think this is about the sex, it's about the crazy. If she were openly poly she'd also find a way to create drama.

She really needs to grow up, but that is unlikely to happen. Whatever she does, she's always going to be in crisis, and I don't envy the men she screws around with in the future.

Posted by Annee on February 9, 2011 at 5:14 PM · Report

It's amazing how SCIL deceives herself into believing that the lost first love is The One when she admits that he's "the worst person in the world" for her. If so, what the frak is she looking for? She's lying to herself AND attempts to do the same to Dan and us, readers. In my opinion, she should just top pretending and jump into maturity by restraining herself and remaining into her marriage.

As for CRAP, I don't think it is healthy to remain in FWB arraignment with his ex. She's using him and would not hesitate to break his heart again. He's better off looking for someone else who really loves him. He should feel good about himself since his ex decided to stick around, only she's not The One.

Posted by xjuan on February 9, 2011 at 5:44 PM · Report

RE: SCIL - Why didn't you just block her email, Dan? Was she using multiple ones or something?

Posted by Puzzled on February 9, 2011 at 6:27 PM · Report

Perhaps I'm too old-fashioned, but I'm a little surprised at the number of people suggesting that CRAP date other people while continuing to screw his ex. Is this some kind of polyamory thing? It's one thing to casually date multiple people without actually having sex with any of them - but he isn't "single" by most people's standards. (I'm a guy, but most women I know are even more militant about this.) If I go on a date - not "hanging out", not "as friends" - with someone and found out later that she was still sexually involved with someone else, I'd feel deceived and offended. If I'm interested in dating a girl in the future, but she mentions that she's still "friends with benefits" with her ex, I'm waiting until she dumps the ex for real before I pursue her.

Bottom line: if you're advertising yourself as romantically available and dating people under that premise, be honest and tell them that you're still "seeing someone".

Posted by OwenE on February 9, 2011 at 7:01 PM · Report

Re: CRAP--Why does everyone assume this woman is a heartless using bitch? There could be countless reasons to stay in a sexual relationship after breaking up. I know if my boyfriend and I split we would likely stay together as dom/sub, so who knows the circumstances of their sexual relationship. It sounds like he is pretty pleased with the sex they are having, he did say they are having 'hot sex' now, and at least if you are kinky it can be intimidating and pretty overwhelming to get out there and build a whole new sexual relationship with someone else. I say if you are pleased with the sex, feel she respects your emotional state and you two have regular check ins, fuck all you want.

Posted by liz.seattle on February 9, 2011 at 7:23 PM · Report

CRAP,

If you enjoy it, do it.

Or not?

Posted by Hunter78 on February 9, 2011 at 8:31 PM · Report

CRAP: What EricaP said in @59, but I would up it a notch...

Fuck the woman this way and that. Do all of the dirty, nasty, verboten things that you wouldn't do before. If she won't go there, leave the friendship as well as the sex. What the hell do you have to lose, your unrequited feelings?

Move on in any case, and fInd a new partner who you can bond with romantically. If your FWB will let herself be used in the meantime, then use her. She's using you as an emotional crutch while she searches for someone new...

Posted by Approaching 40 in LA on February 9, 2011 at 9:05 PM · Report

For CRAP, check yourself emotionally. Only have sex when you are horny and NOT emotional, because you have to distinguish the sexual bond from the love bond... I'd keep it infrequent, actively go out apart from her and seek other people, even other FWBs, instead of her... and be ready to dump her as soon as a good sex partner comes around, regardless of whether the sex partner is a good emotional fit... she is only there to theoretically fill one role OR the other, not both, so if someone else fills even the sex only role, bam, ex is useless to you in any skin to skin way. If you wouldn't dump her for a casual sexual encounter with someone else--when that other someone could turn into a relationship (who cares if it starts with sex or emotion if both ultimately get satisfied? We're all wired differently and cross wires in sloppy ways every time)... if a casual fuck buddy in another girl is in any way less appealing than "what you know," I'd definitely get out, because you can NOT expect new people to match what took the two of you a lot of time and energy and emotion to develop into... so while I don't condone just fucking the first thing that comes around, I do embrace fucking the first thing that you'd fuck if she were permanently 5k miles away, which is sort of how FWB has to work since ultimately, the minute one hooks up with someone else, boom, the other is made very scarce if not non-existent. When one of you DOES find someone else, and it's probably going to be her since girls have far less trouble finding willing mates, it will be very awkward to just casually talk, so expect that whether you do it now or later, you're going to need a time to officially and entirely sever the connection to cleanly move into your future partnership(s). I can't do FWB if I'm emotionally vulnerable, and I agree on the no sleeping over (apart from inebriated, one on the couch, no cuddling type) idea... if I still had feelings for my exes--and of course plenty of times I did--I couldn't stay around them--I can't even see FB statuses about "is in a relationship with" or "went to this spot with this person that could be competition" without it making me itch, but if you can, color me impressed. I would hope she'd be nice enough to have a separate list with you on the "block" list so anything involving dating doesn't get advertised to you in a bright bold knife face font.

More...

Posted by SeattleSnark on February 9, 2011 at 9:38 PM · Report

CRAP,

Don't call it FWB... call it what it is: breakup sex.

You can go ahead and fuck eachother as long as you both feel good about yourselves and the experience, but it is way to early post-breakup (especially for you) to try to flip the switch and take all feelings out of the equation/make it only about the sex. There *are* still feelings, and if you try to fit your feelings into the FWB mold you'll end up regretting it because it "shouldn't hurt" and you "shouldn't be upset for no reason sometimes"...

Don't make it long term, and don't seek out reasons or excuses to see her.

Posted by kitchendancer on February 9, 2011 at 9:38 PM · Report

Re the first letter: I dont agree with Dan mostly. I can't believe he missed on a very important clue: her current husband stopped having sex with her. Her serial cheating apart--she is obviously unhappy in her marriage. I can't believe Dan didnt suggest personal therapy for both the serial cheating and the decision about marriage instead of calling her all sorts of names. the OP definitely needs it.

Also the woman is honest about her serial cheating and that her first love is no good for her-- which does speak well for her insight about herself and her situation. she will probbaly greatly benefit from some long term therapy about herself and by spending time alone coming to terms with her own problems.

Posted by im_nice on February 9, 2011 at 10:33 PM · Report

Posted by im_nice on February 9, 2011 at 10:37 PM · Report

Here's a memo to SCIL's husband: if someone cheats with you, they will cheat ON you. So I hope her husband wasn't SHOCKED, SHOCKED that she cheated on him. And if she is already noticing that Mr. True Love is blue-collar and doesn't have the nice home in the suburbs, you can imagine how thin and how quickly that lifestyle is going to wear if she actually leaves white-collar hubby and moves in with Mr. True Love.

The point with serial cheaters is the grass is always greener, and there is no relief when you move on, there's only something new/different. As soon as you move in, it's no longer new/different, and so the search begins again.

Wow, I feel for those poor kids though. Hard having Drama Mama in your home life.

Don't you wish you could secretly give birth control to people in their food or while they sleep?

Posted by DCKathy on February 10, 2011 at 12:38 AM · Report

@96
Someone needing therapy does not mean they are totally absolved from their bad behavior. It's obvious that she knows she is a destructive person, but it sounds like she enjoys it.

Posted by chicago girl on February 10, 2011 at 1:19 AM · Report

I've worked and had temporary friendships with versions of SCIL several times - narcissistic, self-loving and very destructive to the lives of all of the people around her. While she is engaging in her 'What should I do?' navel-gazing, the lives of her current husband, friends, children and co-workers (if she works at all, which seems doubtful) are thrown into chaos trying to compensate for all of the fucking instability she injects into environment around her. She may cut out at any time, but she isn't for now, but she might very soon. Having been on the co-worker/friend side of this type of crap, it gets old really quickly.

Frankly, her husband should have kicked her ass to to curb as soon as he discovered this. Her 'first' should never have entertained resuming this relationship. The red flags (two kids from two marriages, serial cheater) are huge. How could he, or anyone else, possibly benefit from having this person in their lives? Oh, but wait, "This man, my first love, is the worst person in the world for me." So of course he doesn't have the insight to see what a wreck this woman is, because he is a wreck himself.

SCIL is looking for 'true love' - but will never, ever have it. What a fucking mess. Don't every marry again...Please!!!

Posted by robwolf on February 10, 2011 at 3:13 AM · Report

100

@ 99 - "Self-loving?" I think you meant "self-loathing." When a person loves themselves, they treat others with kindness, dignity and respect (real respect and not what you see "on the TV.") People who love themselves know the difference between the confused behaviour of this woman and the self-denial, self-loathing and probably self-hatred they feel AND the contrast of what it feels like to love one's self. There is a big difference and until one knows the difference, one doesn't understand the contrast in behaviour.
People who love themselves operate with more clarity in their minds and with more efficient minds. Hatefulness, jealousy, self-doubt, self-denial, anger, resentment and any other negative way of being is on the other end of the scale from love.
Narcissim is the opposite of self-love. Narcissistic people are "making up" for genuine feelings of worthiness in their existence.
Big difference.

Posted by Frederica Bimble on February 10, 2011 at 6:07 AM · Report

101

Thanks for your response to SCIL, Dan. It was dead on, and it quelled the fury I felt reading her letter. Look, SCIL: stop fucking your children up. One day they will be adults and they will remember (believe me, I know). You'll end up alone: the men you date will finally catch on and look for love elsewhere, and your children won't even want to come home for Christmas.

Get your head on straight, woman.

Posted by ergoQED on February 10, 2011 at 6:56 AM · Report

102

No, Dan, it was not "cunty" of you to react with "THIS BITCH CAN GET LEGALLY MARRIED AND I CAN'T?!?!"....it was an obvious and rational response to this irresponsible, soulless slut's utterly self-serving, so called dilemma....and I wish that all the anti-equality assholes out there would catch a clue that it is "people" like this from whom marriage needs protection not you, not two of my dearest friends who cannot marry- I introduced them 14 years ago and they've been together since about a week later- faithful, steady, supportive of one another, everything spouses should be and yet without access to the legal and financial benefits or the social acceptance that comes with that piece of paper that this horrible woman is using as a trick towel.

Posted by LeBeau59741 on February 10, 2011 at 8:01 AM · Report

103

@98: i wasnt condoning her bad behaviour, I just think this woman has more serious personal issues than meet the eye. And advising her to stick to a unhappy sexless marriage for the sake of her kids just bcoz she is a serial cheater n deserves nothing better.

And it doesnt look like she enjoys her behaviour..she seems to practically loathe herself by openly inviting the brickbats. Again: is that all a justification for hurting so many human beings?--No! But IMO the solution lies in her getting professional help and changing her behavious patterns, not in taking the option of remaining in her unhappy marriage/ or eloping with her destructive 'true love'.

Posted by im_nice on February 10, 2011 at 9:14 AM · Report

104

@103
I didn't say you were condoning her behavior, just that you were holding her less accountable because she probably needs therapy. I think her behavior shows that she knows this and doesn't care. She's always at the mercy of her passion or some shit. It sounds like she enjoys being a mess, and that's why she wouldn't give up until Dan Savage paid attention to her and posted her story for the world to see. Such a person does need therapy and will probably not get it because it's too much fun to fuck up people's lives.

Posted by chicago girl on February 10, 2011 at 9:40 AM · Report

105

SCIL,please, please, please get yourself fixed so that you can no longer give birth. Please do not bring anymore children into your world!

That said, I feel NO sympathy for her currant husband. He new that she was a cheater when he married her. What goes around, comes around.

Posted by tophat on February 10, 2011 at 10:34 AM · Report

106

Regarding SCIL, I completely agree with Dan. I am saddened and ashamed that the writer can claim that she is a human being, woman and parent. She needs to seriously get some therapy. She is a disaster waiting for anyone who gets involved with her. I hope she never writes in again and I feel absolutely sorry for her children who will grow up thinking their mother's behavior is normal. I can only hope that the children will come to realize that their maternal biological parental unit is a POS.

Posted by A_Charmed_1 on February 10, 2011 at 10:34 AM · Report

107

Please help me. I grew up in a family where we hugtged and kissed each other daily.l When I was 11 I had a Traumatic Brain Injury. I was comatose for two and a half weeks My left arm and leg were paralyzed for many more weeks. I grew up not particularly aware of the unspoken rule.DO NOT TOUCH OTHERS. Mom lives in a Senior independent living complex. The man who,lives directly across from her is a retired Episcopal priest. I have hugged him. On time intentionally teasing h im I thought I gently lifted my knee between his legs. I do not think I touched the perineum. I have been notifiedl I may not set foot on the property or in the building to visit Mom. Please advise me how to not touch anyone.

Thank you.

I 2 am nice

Posted by I 2 am nice on February 10, 2011 at 11:16 AM · Report

108

@107, a lawyer would be able to help you evaluate whether your mom's institution is acting reasonably and within the law; a therapist could help you evaluate your own behavior to make necessary changes before you face other social or legal consequences.

Posted by EricaP on February 10, 2011 at 11:26 AM · Report

109

I 2 am nice, good try but total fail. Your retarded perv act is undermined by details such as your accurate spelling of "perineum." Try again, if you must. Or not, that is probably best.

Posted by chicago girl on February 10, 2011 at 11:38 AM · Report

110

@57
Thanks for the link to the original letter/response. Made my day.

Posted by wowza on February 10, 2011 at 12:27 PM · Report

111

Regarding SCIL, in one word: "SELFISH". Thank you so much Dan for letting her have it. She deserves far worse than what you gave her. She is willing to mess up her kids lives and the only father they have ever known just so she can get sex from a guy she knows is no good for her. Everyone knows that SCIL is gonna cheat on him too, unless he cheats on her first. On top of being selfish, her problem is that she thinks highly of men that treat her like crap and looks down upon men that treat women with respect. She gives women and mothers a very bad name and for you guys out there...RUN AWAY FROM THIS WOMAN!!!

Posted by sandyrican on February 10, 2011 at 12:51 PM · Report

112

Dan - Yeah she's a piece of work. But doesn't deserve to have children? wth?

Posted by subwlf on February 10, 2011 at 1:35 PM · Report

113

I don't think it's possible to have a FWB relationship when one partner has strong emotional/romantic feelings and the other one doesn't. I am not sure if it's even possible to have a healthy friendship (benefits or not) with this arrangement. I am currently the "in love" side of an equation like this and it creates a perpetual motion machine of hope and misery. The person who wants less intimacy holds all the power.

Posted by loveaddict on February 10, 2011 at 3:13 PM · Report

114

SCIL should just keep doing what she does so well and what she wants and that is to fuck men.

Posted by markmills on February 10, 2011 at 3:38 PM · Report

115

GEEEEEEZ, just about the only smart choice I ever made in my one shitty marriage from Hell to an abusive asshole who didn't love me (yes, I knew it before stupidly tying the knot and was in complete denial way back then)--was NOT to have any children with him.

6 months after our divorce finalized, he got married to some mail-order bride from the Midwest.
My condolences to her--and any kids they might have had.

Posted by auntie grizelda on February 10, 2011 at 5:42 PM · Report

116

No, I'm not anti-kids, I just never planned on having any, especially when their would-be father was a mentally unhinged psychopath.

Okay. I'm done, and grateful not to be SCIL.

Posted by auntie grizelda on February 10, 2011 at 5:46 PM · Report

117

Dan.. Maybe you should put up a special web site with SCIL's letter and other fine examples of heterosexual marriage gone bad. Be sure to throw in some some stories on politicians and televangelists gone wild. Give it a catchy domain name and send the link to all the tight-assed senators and representatives who still think marriage needs to be protected.

Posted by MikeW on February 10, 2011 at 6:26 PM · Report

118

SCIL: Please go bother some other advice columnist. Like one who is straight and specializes in dumb, yet annoyingly self important twats such as yourself. I want queer and kink topics and timely political diatribes in Dan's columns. I've got straight drama around me all the time. You people have had marriage for centuries yet you still can get it right. Dan is a treasured oasis of queer culture; don't waste that resource!

Posted by MikeW on February 10, 2011 at 7:26 PM · Report

119

@ #73 ... today's euphemism for fucking is the word "dating". Let's be honest here, saying "we used to date" is therefore a lie, as the FWB guy is still fucking his ex.

In reality, FWB setups are simply this: you get to fuck someone NSA. Pure and simple. Forget being friends with them; it rarely works out, since someone is always wanting more/less. It's usually a very temporary fix for people on the go between real relationships.

But let's be clear that anyone seeking FWB setups should always make their motives known to prospective sexual dalliances, otherwise, they find themselves hooked with someone who had no idea they were being played. And in case any of you nymphos don't know: when you have sex with someone, your body releases oxytocin, otherwise known as the love drug, into your system... this is why you get hooked on the sexual partner, of course, dependent upon chemistry. This is why some people find it difficult to make the split. And this is why the FWB guy should put some time between making a NSA decision with his ex. Eventually, the oxytocin will subside and he will see the light of day. You don't want to be where you're truly not wanted, do you?

It's a cruel world.

Posted by Bluejean Baby on February 10, 2011 at 8:50 PM · Report

120

YO C.R.A.P. GTFO NOOOOW UNLESS YOU WANT A CLUSTERFUCK OF HURT AND RAGE AND SHAME AND OTHER UNSEXY THINGS THAT GOES ON FOREVER
trust me, i just got out of that same situation and its still haunting me.

Posted by brononymous on February 10, 2011 at 10:00 PM · Report

121

@109, doh! how could I have missed that?!

@115, they have mail-order brides from the Midwest now?

Posted by EricaP on February 10, 2011 at 10:46 PM · Report

122

I really like that second later, simply because I broke up with someone, did the extremely ill-advised FWB thing... and got over him while I was fucking him. Yay! And now he's got a girlfriend and I've got a boyfriend and we are actually genuinely happy for each other!

I love being the exception that proves the rule.

I really hope CRAP (haha) doesn't make the same mistake I did, because it could have been simply horrible. Also, sounds like he/she and the ex have a good friendship; I would advise CRAP to make sure the friendship is ALWAYS first and foremost in his/her mind. Then, if they continue this ill-advised fucking, they might be okay.

Posted by LadyGrinSoul on February 11, 2011 at 1:01 AM · Report

123

"THIS BITCH CAN GET LEGALLY MARRIED AND I CAN'T?!?!" - love it, Dan.

SCIL, please do all the straight guys a huge favor by only getting involved with those who are looking for FWB.

Speaking of FWB, I once got myself into the same situation with an ex that CRAP is considering getting himself into. Still had feelings for him, too. And the sex was amazing. But the only thing that sucked worse than getting dumped by him the first time was getting dumped by him a second time and feeling totally used after he proceeded to completely cut me out of his life shortly thereafter.

Posted by TuesdayorWednesday on February 11, 2011 at 1:43 AM · Report

124

SCIL should go ahead and go for her life love. Thats the only way she will be able to get over the need to be with this guy. (which had such a profound effect on her other relationships.)

When her ideal relationship finally fails, she will be able to see that she was basing her life on an unrealistic dream, and start maturing and understanding herself.
And if it doesn't fail then great.

Posted by bukboy on February 11, 2011 at 6:40 AM · Report

125

for SCIL, why don't you stop thinking with the wrong end of your body and start thinking about your children? Your selfish and will always be. Why have kids if you can't think of them first? Why get married if you can't keep your legs closed? YOU are the reason I will NEVER get married, people are selfish and have no compassion anymore! Give yourself time you WILL fuck this affair up like you have every other relationship you have ever been in. NO RESPECT! NONE!

Posted by Caradae on February 11, 2011 at 9:13 AM · Report

126

Dan your response to SCIL failed to offer a third probably MORE stable and responsible option. DON'T LIVE OR BE MARRIED TO ANYONE. Get your own place, have 1 stable home for your children that won't change regardless of who you think you are currently inlove with. Your love life can be lived OUTSIDE your home. They don't become your carpet bags...they are your home, you are theirs, and the dad's have a safe place to offer them too. Instead of the insane madness of a home you are offering them now.

Posted by longtimesavager on February 11, 2011 at 11:14 AM · Report

127

Crap,

I've thought it over, and read the many neg comments. Enjoy every fucking bit of this fwb union. You were hurt worse in the breakup. Fuck the shit out of her and enjoy it, and she might too.

Posted by Hunter78 on February 11, 2011 at 4:40 PM · Report

128

I'm surprised no one's yet hit on SCIL's diagnosis. There's a word that perfectly sums up SCIL's personality, and that is this:

Sociopath

People like this are nothing but trouble; they're manipulative, charming, pathological liars, incapable of feeling any remorse for their actions, incapable of feeling love, are usually sexually promiscuous, have a constant need for stimulation, are callous, have poor impulse control, and are adept at exploiting others to support their parasitic lifestyle. It's always All About Them, and anyone who's ever had to deal with someone like this quickly learns that there's no helping these people - there's only avoiding them in order to save one's sanity.

SCIL needs some therapy, and she needs it now.

Posted by astrogirl426 on February 11, 2011 at 5:59 PM · Report

129

To SCIL:
Your life has the makings to a total train wreck and the only movie that Madonna could successfully A C T in.
When you leave your second husband for the Love of Your Life, please leave your children with him. They deserve to be raised by an adult. Whatever you decide to do, stay or go, have your tubes tied now. There is enough of your spawn in the world as it is.

Posted by ariando on February 11, 2011 at 6:16 PM · Report

130

Regarding SCIL, a lot of you guys have the assumption that she is sane. Not that I can diagnose people, but I read a lot of me me me in your letter from the opening sentences where she tells Dan she will not be ignored. I cheated on one of my boyfriends. After learning how disrespectful and painful it was for him, I never did again because I have empathy for other people and try to treat them with some kindness even if we are breaking up.
Yes, I get it that it would be frustrating if your husband isn't interested in sex. That's why you try the counseling then go your separate ways if you can't make it work. Don't fuck some other guy for months, terrorize your current husband because he provides you with a nice house. If you want to be with the love of your life, let your current husband go so he can find the love of his life. Leave your kids with him so you can keep fucking and fucking focusing on yourself, your needs and your desires regardless of who it hurts.

Posted by siren823 on February 11, 2011 at 8:17 PM · Report

131 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy

132

I love you, Dan, but please don't take the name of the cunt in vain. That word has been used by some men in a way that is meant to demean women. Many of us women are taking the once hurtful power out of the word by proudly calling their vagina a cunt. My ex-husband called me a cunt in a derogatory tone, and I told him, "Pity you'll never get to enjoy my beautiful cunt again."

Posted by rainydaywoman on February 11, 2011 at 11:39 PM · Report

133

In an earlier letter I used the "fwb" term for CRAP's and his ex's relationship-- as did he. But "fwb" isn't really right, is it? There's no indication that they're friends now outside their screws or that CRAP is bothered by any friend-side contact with her. They're just "fuck-buddies" now, a term Dan correctly used. Their relationship, afawk, is now solely a construct of their fucking. Isn't that different from a real fwb relationship? That he is still carrying a torch for her is simply an embellishment, not a definition of their relationship.

Ain't semantics grand?

Posted by Hunter78 on February 12, 2011 at 12:30 AM · Report

134

rainydaywoman,

Many common words have multiple meanings. "Cunt" can mean both the most beautiful and most delectable organ in the world (imo), and a low woman. That makes language fun.

Posted by Hunter78 on February 12, 2011 at 12:44 AM · Report

135

@ 134 - In Britain, it is used to describe men in much the same way "asshole" is used in the US. It can be used in a unisex manner though.
Gee, another word to describe a "low woman" eh?
Zzzzzzzzz

Posted by Frederica Bimble on February 12, 2011 at 2:23 AM · Report

136

Dang CRAP, I feel ya. For me right now...it's all worth it. Kind of. Takes me days to recover every time I leave him. But it's a process. Sometimes the sex is just THAT hot and the love and missing is that strong to make us into total fools...

Posted by Careab on February 12, 2011 at 1:23 PM · Report

137

If she spent as much time working on her marriage as she does pining for the 'grass is greener on the other side', she'd probably be a lot more happier, and so would her husband and kids.

She made her lot in life, time she started living with it instead of running away.

Posted by happilymarried on February 12, 2011 at 4:04 PM · Report

138

@ Hunter 78

I appreciate that words can have different meanings; it enriches our language. It's that cunt, in particular, has been used as a word weapon against women. It's time to evolve the negative meanings, and their power to hurt, out of our language.

Posted by rainydaywoman on February 12, 2011 at 5:38 PM · Report

139

Dan, I love your word-smithery. Please, though--refrain from using "cunty." Can't help feeling that you are maligning women w/the usage. Yeah, I say "You're a dick," "...a prick," and other male-centric words--but CUNT is so laden w/meaning (all negative) that it's quease-inducing. I LIKE pricks.

Posted by 323dianea on February 12, 2011 at 6:25 PM · Report

140

"Cunty"? For real? For shame.

Posted by Belleweather on February 12, 2011 at 7:24 PM · Report

141

Wow, everyone seems to be hating on this SCIL woman. What about all the pressures a woman might feel to have to get married? Just because you like seeing different people means you shouldn't have kids? I don't know if I can agree, although I don't know a solution for her either.

Posted by compudobby on February 12, 2011 at 10:19 PM · Report

142

NO, the reason she didn't cheat on him was because in THAT relationship, the male was the jerk. If she leaves her husband to be with him, he will mistreat her and eventually dump her again. He's the one willing to treat her like the shit she feels/knows she it. She respects that. That relationship is doomed, but I don't think she'll cheat on him unless he becomes nuetered like the first two husbands.

Posted by jussmbdy on February 13, 2011 at 12:00 AM · Report

143

To Scil, the reason you love him is that he rejected you. This makes him appear knowledgeable, since your self esteem is in the shitter. You need to start having love and compassion for yourself first, then you can start to see what an unbelievable gift your children are, whom you had the good karma to attract.
No one else will give you unconditional love like that. Be true to them. You can do it.

for Crap, of course you still have feelings for her. trust your process. either you are still a junkie using a non-lethal substance that merely wastes precious life-hours, or you are an addict using methodone, and will transition to cold turkey
when and if required. IF you can break away, it will probably save you grief in the long run; then again, good sex doesn't grow on trees...so at least enjoy it, knowing it will end someday.

Dan, I love your column. "Cunty" hmmm I get it, it's
strong, but yeah it hurts to hear that used as
the ultimate put-down when we (females) have cunts that we'd like to see as GOOD things--cunty would
then come to mean "DEEEELicious."
thanks

Posted by hotfeemail on February 13, 2011 at 1:03 AM · Report

144

We have a cut and dry case of "dum'bitch" in the first letter and people are picking nits about the language Dan uses. Amazing.

If I were in his shoes, I'd be pretty steamed that she managed to get legally, recongized in all of the US and the whole wide world hitched, do this twice, and he in a decade+ long relationship raising a kid can't. I'm sure if he used "dickish" (which is comparable to cunty - i.e. prejorative word used against one gender or another), no one would complain. He even called her a bitch, and there's no uproar about that. I'm sure there's plenty of guys who think their dicks are pretty awesome (and plenty of girls/guys who'd agree with them). Talk about a double standard/folks looking for reasons to be offended. Seriously, today it's cunt, tomorrow it'll be something else. Meanings will always change.

Also, does she deserve to have children? In a word, no. Children are a gift, and she's wasting hers running after dick. If she is incapable of focusing of their care, then she shouldn't have had then and should probably look into making certian that she does not have any more.

(I'm pretty steamed that there are doctors who would happily fix this moron on the basis of her having two kids already, and I can't find one that'll do the same for me even though I'm around her age, childless, and have no interest in having sex.)

It has nothing to do with her ability to lust after/love more than one person, as there are plenty of non-monogamous folks out there raising well-adjusted kids. The difference between them and her is a fuckton of maturity and self-awareness, and not being a dipshit serial cheater.

So yeah, she doesn't deserve that gift, and I feel really sorry for those kids for having an immature twit of a mother. Hope the second husband is treating them well.

More...

Posted by Acegal on February 13, 2011 at 4:12 AM · Report

145

About a million years ago, there was a letter to Dan's column about some college kid who met up with a mystery "lady" who wanted him to go to a hotel room in the dark and have him lay on the bed, with the lights still off, whilst "she" came into the room with a towel over her head. The kid wanted to know if he'd had anal sex and Dan told him he'd fucked a dude.
Does anyone remember that letter and if so, could you let me know the title because I've been going through the archives and I can't seem to find it.

Posted by Frederica Bimble on February 13, 2011 at 4:24 AM · Report

146

Frederika Bimble,

Women are not an oppressed minority in our culture. They are a visually and behaviorally different half of the population. They are celebrated by themselves and by men. Disdain the detractors.

Posted by Hunter78 on February 13, 2011 at 5:42 AM · Report

147

The flippant lack of respect SCIL has for her current husband is totally disgusting. Get over yourself, sweetheart. You will clearly never be happy with ANYONE until you get over the "Next Best Thing" mentality. I think some honesty with yourself about the kind of person you truly are would go a long way. Maybe it's low self-esteem?

As for your kids: My parents stayed together for the sake of my brother and I, and believe me, when they finally did get divorced 29 years into their marriage, it was MESSY. They both acknowledge now that it was a terrible reason for two people who clearly were incompatible from the get-go to stay married.

I don't know if a polyamorous relationship will work for you, SCIL, because you just sound way too selfish for ANY type of relationship.

Please do not have any more children. There are enough screwed up people in the world.

Posted by outoftowner on February 13, 2011 at 10:38 AM · Report

148

Great on SCIL! This selfish bitch has already given two men broken relationships and two kids dealing with broken home trauma. Get yourself spayed and don't go on any second dates without proclaiming your non-monogamy!

As for CRAP, one month of getting over an unrequited love relationship is NOT a good idea! The only successful FWB are just that, friends who only want friendship with each other despite also wanting the sex. You are not in that category and I suspect you agreed only because the break-up is too recent and you will take anything not to lose the connection.

Posted by GymGoth on February 13, 2011 at 11:42 AM · Report

149

SCIL seems like the kind of woman that I'd kick out of the car after she was done blowing me and not feel guilty about it.

Posted by markvz on February 13, 2011 at 11:48 AM · Report

150

SCIL's story is as old as fucking time, probably another reason why Dan never replied to it. We all have that "one that got away," "the first love," "the true love" whatever/blah blah. We only feel that way about them because we could never (completely) have them and the only time they want us is when we're with somebody else. So another possible/probable outcome of her leaving her husband for "her true love," will be that he will dump her ass, like he has before. This man clearly has no stability in his life, nor wants it.

Posted by dramatica on February 13, 2011 at 5:11 PM · Report

151

is it an advise column or or is it just passing judgement? Its not about credit or sympathy. Giving advise is a position of power and should be done disinterestedly. please comment something intereseting. like what does sex mean if not reproduction? what is the diference between making a choice and behaving youself? How do you know what you want, and given that ignarance how to procede?

Posted by gringopingo on February 13, 2011 at 6:32 PM · Report

152

"like what does sex mean if not reproduction?"

Ask a gay guy, or a lesbian, or a straight infertile couple, or a straight elderly couple, or anyone who uses birth control.

Not that hard to figure out.

Posted by Acegal on February 14, 2011 at 3:47 AM · Report

153

In fine form this week Mr. Savage! Beautiful advice.

Posted by Styles Bitchley on February 14, 2011 at 4:58 AM · Report

154

For C.R.A.P. I've recieved similar offer. I told her go fuck herself. Too many other women out there and she is just a complication to your next relationship unless she dumps you before then.

Posted by Hill on February 14, 2011 at 7:16 AM · Report

155

Everything everybody's said about SCIL is right.

But I still think she sounds hot.

Posted by make me write bad checks on February 14, 2011 at 10:47 AM · Report

156

I feel fortunate that I have never had anyone like SCIL in my life.

Posted by SavageFan51 on February 14, 2011 at 12:31 PM · Report

157

Dan, you're the best and I totally love you. If I had anything to proffer up, it's that staying together isn't necessarily the answer. I watched a friend go through it up close and personal as I practically lived at his house. It was brutal to watch their eventual divorce once he became of age.

I think the gal needs to get her tubes tied and some professional help.

Posted by Retard Yoke on February 14, 2011 at 12:47 PM · Report

158

SCIL: Dan was much nicer than I'm gonna be: GROW THE FUCK UP. Period. Full stop. Pull your head out of your ass and take a deep, cleansing breath of the oxygen you've been deprived of. Seriously, women like you give the rest of us a bad name.

Posted by ladymissk on February 14, 2011 at 4:34 PM · Report

159

@89

That is too old-fashioned these days. Assuming that one or two dates with a person makes them your girlfriend or boyfriend is too clingy. It's better to keep your options open until you have some indication of a commitment. Otherwise you could invest a lot of yourself into a relationship and then turn around and find out that the other person thought you were dating on a casual basis. My take on it is that you can't make assumptions at all about a person's sex life until you talk about it. The first month or two of dating are really about figuring out if you even want to be exclusive or can actually see a long-term relationship. Until you have both said yes to a monogamous relationship, it's really ok to see other people. That doesn't mean have sex with everyone you date- but it does mean making time to meet other people. If you make the assumption that you're the only one, you could put 6 mos. into casually dating someone who's not that into you. Don't stop seeing other people until you are sure that you're in an exclusive relationship.

Posted by You never really know on February 14, 2011 at 5:45 PM · Report

160

I liked the "THIS BITCH CAN GET LEGALLY MARRIED AND I CAN'T?!?!" part of Dan's answer to SCIL, but I didn't liked the rest of it. That must be the worst and most emotional and girly advice given ever by Dan. First of all, the kids. As some people have pointed, it's not the best for them to keep a marriage because of them. Marriage is between two people. A family has several people. Marriage can be undone, a family can't. This girl's relationships and those kids father's relationships with her or other people are not of those kids fucking business. People teach kids often that it is, but it isn't. And they've got to be taught that it is not, and that there's nothing they've got to expect from their mother or their father's relationships. Please, stop teaching your kids that Disney stories about life: they're not real, and it's not good for kids. It's not fun. It's a pretty shitty thing to do.
Second, shes an asshole, yeah. But she's not an asshole BECAUSE she can't be monogamous. She's an assholes because she tries monogamy even though it's not her thing. Because she lies to herself thinking she cheats on men because she's in love with only one. And because she's not got the girl balls to think about it and get a fucking polygamous relationship with a guy who's into that. So, she could marry. Don't be these judging assholes you're being.

Posted by Lechugo on February 14, 2011 at 6:01 PM · Report

161

So, i won't be judgmental. I don't know how many times this bitch spammed Dan's e-mail. And it must have been many times for him to answer AND post it here, so...
If answer letter is a counter-bully-letter answer, then bravo Dan.

Posted by Lechugo on February 14, 2011 at 6:08 PM · Report

162

Ok did anyone else catch the reference to Fatal Attraction...:I won't be IGNORED Dan is a reference to that movie and what Glenn Close's character says to Michael Douglas' character before she boils the bunny. So, maybe that was her lame attempt at humor?? Other than that, I agree with everyone else's assessment of her completely narcissitic and insufferable attitude. This woman will never be happy.

Posted by icy sparks on February 14, 2011 at 7:21 PM · Report

163

women this nasty should just consider being escorts or porno stars, and never have a relationship...and Dan's advice about staying for the kids is good...think about it...while she goes out to be banged by a stranger...her pussy whipped husband will look out for them

Posted by Ron on February 15, 2011 at 4:49 AM · Report

164

SLIC - finally a bigger pile of crap than I am! She sure sounds like a lucky pile of crap though. Gee.

Posted by cosmosfactory on February 15, 2011 at 1:07 PM · Report

165

Dan's answer to that bitch was great! She is trying to play the victim when actually she is the guilty one and has no ethics at all. I cannot stand that phony whinning.

Posted by Fabiola on February 16, 2011 at 7:36 PM · Report

166

For SCIL- The reason you're still "in love" with your high school boyfriend is because you've never progressed (emotionally or mentally) beyond high school. Congrats- epic fail in life.

For the love of god, just try not to bring a third child into this train wreck.

Posted by Sammyrose on February 22, 2011 at 6:38 AM · Report

167

CRAP, nobody ever retains a FWB with their ex and magically gets back together. you previously stated you see why it didnt work and are assured you guys wont get back together but you contradict towards the end and say "we both know id prefer more". That last line my friend is your answer. dont do it. theres no such thing as as a FWB situation with an ex that ends well. THE END.

Posted by FoxyRoxy on February 25, 2011 at 3:53 PM · Report

168

For all you know, the narcissist really has an inferiority complex and is looking for confirmation (from Dan and the rest of the moralistic finger-pointers of the world) of that inferiority. Whatever. But I don't agree with Dan's advice to 'stay put.' I would rather have divorced parents than cheating/abuser-doormat parents.

Posted by conquer on April 7, 2011 at 9:53 AM · Report

169

@77 You know what REALLY makes it a great joke? The fact that she's apparently oblivious to the context of that quote, and just how appropriate it is in the meta-sense. You know, since she's a crazy* drama loving bitch who cheats and seems driven towards self-destruction... her unconscious acknowledgment of that makes it FAR more hilarious.

*acknowledging difference between the borderline personality of Glen Close's character and a stupid drama loving bitch like this chick.

Posted by lain on June 7, 2011 at 10:05 AM · Report