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Pretty Little Hippie

September 7, 2011

Dear readers: I'm on vacation. The questions and answers in this week's column are three recent installments of the "Savage Love Letter of the Day," which folks with the SLAPP—the Savage Love app for iPhone or Android—receive daily via the miracle of modern technology. If you have the SLAPP, you've already read these questions and second-guessed my answers. Sorry about that. If you don't have the SLAPP, you're not getting your full weekly dose of Savage Love, and I'm sorry about that, too.

I have always been attracted to women. But I have had experiences with other males as well. All fondling. I have at times found the penis erotic, but it does not consume me. I enjoy women and prefer them in every respect. I get pegged, so to speak, as being gay quite a lot. I recognize why: I flirt with men. I like being nice and making people happy. I think some guys confuse my polite "I love everybody" hippie vibe for my being willing to suck their dicks.

I am a pretty boy, so perhaps this causes confusion. My eyes are feminine, I have long lashes, I make eye contact with everyone. Also, I notice that I tend to display "mate poaching behavior," meaning I tend to flirt with women who are in relationships, and I have been with quite a few women who are in relationships, or married, and these "committed" women are often attracted to me.

I guess I am just a flirtatious guy. I consider myself a very sensual person. Also: I act more gay around homophobes, to the point where even I start to question myself. Yet I know I love women. I enjoy being with women and I am happy with women. It dawns on me that these accusers—the men who think I'm gay—might be the insecure ones. Many of the homophobes I meet display dominant behavior to each other: squabbling with friends, getting drunk and fucking with each other. From my hippie "all-is-love" perspective, this seems more gay than just being nice, sensitive, and caring.

To break it down: Sometimes I feel gay. But usually it is only around insecure homophobes who I don't consider physically beautiful at all! I have been around a lot of gay people. I worked a promotion for a pride festival and a liquor promotion for a gay bar. I don't feel gay around gay people!

I feel very frustrated, Dan, because I don't feel confused at all, but I feel like I confuse people.

Damn Acronyms Really Evade

I should probably reread your letter before I bang out a response, DARE, but that might prompt me to throw my laptop, myself, or both right out the open window I'm sitting next to. So forgive me for dashing this off: Yes, DARE, you confuse people. And you're doing it on purpose, pretty little hippie, as you damn well know. But allow me to unpack your bullshit for you just in case in you damn well don't...

You pursue women who have boyfriends and flirt with men who have issues because you're an egotistical little narcissist who derives sadistic pleasure from causing erotic chaos wherever you go. When you bed women who have boyfriends or husbands, it proves that you're just as hot as you think you are; when you flirt with and unnerve straight-identified homophobes, it proves that you're just as hot as you think you are. But you don't allow yourself to flirt with good-looking dudes, DARE, because you're not secure enough in your sexuality to risk batting your eyelashes at a guy who you might actually want to go to bed with.

I'm sorry if all of that sounds harsh, pretty little hippie, and there are worse things you could do than be a player and a prick tease. (And, hey, I'm all for fucking with conflicted closet cases.) But at some point, you're going to have to admit—at least to yourself—that your "I love everybody" routine is a disguise, and you get off on creating confusion, and you're a narcissist (perhaps with cause) with a sadistic streak (not that there's anything wrong with a sadistic streak, properly channeled).

You're the satyr, DARE, not the faun. Own it.


I'm 26, bi, female, and my idea of a successful long-term relationship lands somewhere between monogamish—awesome word!—and completely nonmonogamous. Basically, I want a primary partner but I enjoy me some women, and a threesome sounds like a great birthday present. I've tried telling potential partners about my kinks on the first date. At first, they're all into it—I'm every dude's dream, right?—but eventually the men all change their minds about wanting that type of relationship. What am I doing wrong?

Apparently NOT Every Man's Dream

So basically, ANEMD, you're 26 years old and you're still single.

Where do I send flowers?

Look, kiddo, you might wanna think of your romantic history this way: Every man you've been with so far either hasn't wanted the type of relationship you're offering or hasn't wanted you. That doesn't mean there aren't men out there who do want the type of relationship you're offering and/or you, only that you haven't met one yet. And that's perfectly normal for someone your age. Keep calm, carry on, and push that kink conversation back to the third date.


I'm a 27-year-old straight guy. This girl I work with is everything I want in a partner. We've been flirting at work and on Facebook, and it's getting to the point where one of us has to make a move. But she's already got a boyfriend. I've been the guy who gets cheated on, and I won't do that to someone else. Also, I've recently been promoted and I'm now her immediate superior. She's a shit employee: lazy, rude to customers, and last week I had to call her on a really basic mistake. Despite these complications, I want to make a real move on her. But how do I get around these issues?

Frustrated In Sydney

I'm having a hard time reconciling "everything I want in a partner" with "willing to cheat on her boyfriend." A previous girlfriend cheated on you and that was a traumatizing experience. Do you really want to be with another woman who's capable of cheating on her boyfriend?

Also: My naturally suspicious nature has me wondering if she didn't see your promotion coming—the one that made you her immediate supervisor—and the flirting always was and still is an insurance policy that protects her from being fired. Right now, you're not going to fire her because you want to fuck her, FIS, and once you've fucked her, you won't be able to fire her because she'll be able to accuse you of sexual harassment. See how that works?

My advice: Go to your boss and tell him that a little innocent coequal-coworker-to-coequal-coworker flirtation has been queered by your promotion, and it would be a sensitive situation even if the other employee was a good worker. But she's a shit worker, and if she doesn't shape up, someone is going to have to fire her.

And that someone can't be you.

Ask your boss to place this girl under someone else, FIS, and after this girl's new immediate supervisor fires her, you'll quickly find out if she was ever really interested in being "placed" under you at all.


Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.

mail@savagelove.net

 

Comments (365) RSS

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1
Great call on FIS, Dan. Bingo!
Posted by SmileChurch on September 6, 2011 at 5:40 PM · Report this
xjuan 2
Enjoy your vacations, Dan. I enjoyed the column.
Now, regarding DARE, I think Dan is OK. The little fella is playing a dangerous game that might become dangerous if he doesn't 'own it'. He's playing with peoples feelings and insecurities to feed his own ego. He wants to believe he's beyond all and everything but he is not yet beyond his own issues.
Posted by xjuan on September 6, 2011 at 5:52 PM · Report this
3
If only there were some word for people who are attracted to both sexes. And imagine if they weren't attracted to every single member of either gender, but only select individuals or types... How weird would that be?
Posted by Shazaam on September 6, 2011 at 6:12 PM · Report this
4
Where does it say that the woman in the third letter was willing to cheat? Flirting isn't cheating (at least not usually) and we have no way of knowing that she's willing to consumate the flirting or that she wouldn't dump the old dude before making a move..

On the other hand, don't really see that making a big difference in the advice given.
Posted by hon kee on September 6, 2011 at 6:23 PM · Report this
5
@1: I second that!

DARE truly sounds like he's got horns.
Good call too, on ANEMD.
Bravo, Dan! Enjoy your well-deserved time off!
Posted by auntie grizelda on September 6, 2011 at 7:12 PM · Report this
6
I think DARE is just a straight up tool.
Posted by GlassMoon on September 6, 2011 at 8:21 PM · Report this
7
DARE sounds like he might not identify as 'male' but as something else, which makes identifying 'gay' or 'straight' not really fit because these terms imply male+male or male+female. What's a 'sort-of-male' + a woman? There's no term for it and DARE may be using sexual terminology to understand what's really a gender issue.

As a person who finally realized my gender identity, not my sexual orientation, was unusual, and is and always has been a non-gendered female, not a woman, I've been there...
Posted by Aquamarine on September 6, 2011 at 8:36 PM · Report this
8
DARE sounds like he might not identify as 'male' but as something else, which makes identifying 'gay' or 'straight' not really fit because these terms imply male+male or male+female. What's a 'sort-of-male' + a woman? There's no term for it and DARE may be using sexual terminology to understand what's really a gender issue.

As a person who finally realized my gender identity, not my sexual orientation, was unusual, and is and always has been a non-gendered female, not a woman, I've been there...
Posted by Aquamarine on September 6, 2011 at 8:38 PM · Report this
9
I've been thinking about DARE's letter since I saw it on the SLAPP. The wording of this letter reminds me very much of a man I dated for a very shot time. In retrospect I realized he was a narcissistic sociopath. He also sexually assaulted me. I remember how flowery his (bad) poetry was (he also spoke this way too). Granted he was beautiful but I've never heard anyone without a shred of a humility say and really believe "GOD, I'm so beautiful" before. Definite red flag. So when this guy goes on and on about how much of a pain it is that these guys he doesn't consider "beautiful at all" (how sad) pursue him despite his "innocent" flirtation "so to speak". I witnessed him flirting with men and women while he was with me and wasn't so offended, but later recognized the behavior as a compulsion to flirt with anyone who would give him the attention/confirmation he needed. The fact that DARE tries to pass off his behavior as something seemingly harmless "I JUST like to confuse people" makes me even more concerned about his actual intentions. (From my experience someone like this does not care about how the consequences of their actions effect others).

My point being... If anyone runs into this "all-is-love hippie" type.... RUN IN THE OTHER DIRECTION... FAST.
Posted by ShoshiBee on September 6, 2011 at 8:39 PM · Report this
10
Hmmm.... I think Dan's response to FIS could be accused of being knee-jerk anti-woman. Ok, maybe this girl is strategizing on how to keep her job by flirting with the soon-to-be-boss, but, if she's really lazy, doesn't give a fuck about the customers, and is making dumb mistakes, maybe she just doesn't give a shit about the job? And flirting with a boss isn't a free ticket to not getting fired. It can also get you fired faster. Say, for example, a flirtatious young woman might get fired by a dude who has recently been promoted and wants to protect himself from problems down the line. Which, when you think about it, makes Dan's advice fairly lame, since he's suggesting that the dude, who has been flirting up a storm himself, lay preemptive groundwork with a supervisor about firing the girl..because of the flirting. Also, maybe the girl really does want to fuck him? Why do we assume that she has an ulterior motive involving her paycheck? Seems plausible enough that she could be enjoying the adulterous flirtation for its own sake.

If someone should be called on their shit, I would say it should be FIS himself, for saying he's found "everything I want in a partner" with someone he also describes as lazy, rude and making dumb mistakes. He obviously doesn't actually LIKE this girl, she's just hot. And maybe there are hot girls elsewhere who'd come with fewer complications. And if he does want to have sex with a hot underling who he doesn't even like, well, then, sorry, he might be putting himself in a bad position re firing her later. Life is not perfect.
Posted by Domina on September 6, 2011 at 9:36 PM · Report this
11
@10 I don't see how the advice given to FIS is anti-woman. FIS should have distanced himself professionally as soon as he got the promotion, especially if she can't perform properly as an employee and he as her supervisor is responsible for her conduct. As for his description of her behavior; that's how she's acting on the job. I know people who are the complete the opposite of their workplace persona. And who the hell tries to get FIRED? You can leave with a recommendation, bridges intact instead of going out like a self destructive jerk.
Posted by mygash on September 7, 2011 at 2:03 AM · Report this
12
#10 - Very well said and spot on! I think Dan got the first letter perfectly but the third one he went bitter and projected a lot of sloppy thinking and "what ifs" onto a simple situation. I've been on this Earth for a LONG time and I can tell you that I've never met a woman who is THAT manipulative (cue a string of misogynists to tell the world about all the women who've burnt them. Save it! You get what you put out to the world so if you hate women then all you'll attract is women AND men to "hate" so again, save it) #10, I think your assessment covered just about all there was to cover and yes, the simplest answer is usually the "right" one. FIS just thinks she's "hot" and couldn't care less about her as a human being. It is very sinister that he'd think she is such great girlfriend material when he speaks of her in such a degrading manner. I remember back when I was that age and as confused as this guy about liking myself as a person and I described some guy I was seeing in less than glowing terms and the person sitting across from me asked, "are you talking about your boyfriend because it sounds like you don't like him very much." Yep, FIS just wants to get laid and needs to grow up. He can knock off the flirting and focus on his job since he puts it in such high regard anyway. He sounds like a self-righteous prick who would drop this woman the milisecond after he's fucked her. She ought to be writing in rather than him because that guy is creepy as hell. Dan could have told him that the fact that he can't stand her but wants to fuck her should be a moment to look in the mirror and wake up. Geesh. Work flirting goes on everyday in every country on Earth but to turn that flirting into: "that person is rude, lazy, can't do his/her job properly AND would cheat on his/her partner and I think they'd make a perfect partner" is quite confused, indeed.
More...
Posted by Frederica Bimble on September 7, 2011 at 3:03 AM · Report this
13
"has been queered by ..."?

Really? Why's that the verb we needed?
Posted by Not yet queered on September 7, 2011 at 3:04 AM · Report this
14
Dare,

You say you're not confused, but you are. Technically you're bi, because you fuck women, but your true nature is sissy queer. Your focus on your prettiness and flirtatiousness is revealing.

You enjoy being with women because they are harmonious with your feminine nature. You're ready to be a hair dresser or wedding planner. You fuck women to deny your gayness. You choose committed women to strike at your enemy-- hetero men, and to avoid entanglement with those women.

You feel gay around guys because they push your sexual buttons. You fantasize that they are actually queer. You obsess about homophobes because you feel threatened by them.

You don't feel gay around gays, because around them you get to feel normal, your guard is down. Come out, embrace your orientation, and release your frustration.
Posted by Hunter78 on September 7, 2011 at 3:31 AM · Report this
15
I think I dated DARE - it sucked.
Posted by Maritess420 on September 7, 2011 at 5:03 AM · Report this
16
Where does #12 live that there are no women who are "that manipulative" ? Because in my four decades I've met plenty. Including my own family, which taught me how to spot them. Maybe it's the low wages of the mountain west rural areas. Frederica wrote a tome. I think Dan was spot on especially since the woman described has a boy friend already.
Posted by scorpio of Id. on September 7, 2011 at 7:08 AM · Report this
17
I think I work with DARE. I agree, egotistical narcissistic, not really socipathic, just doesn't have a clue that he's not all that.
Posted by MameSnidely on September 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM · Report this
18
Hello everyone. This is DARE. I wrote the letter.

I have pondered the possibilities a few commenters brought up before. I have wondered if I have 'gender' issues but came to the conclusion that I do not. I have no biological gender issues. I am testosterone dominant as are most men born with testicles. Any other aspect of 'psychological' gender you may be referring to I consider largely a social construct. Basically, gender is bullshit. Just because I care about people and am nurturing, it doesn't mean I have gender issues.

Also I have wondered if I am a narcissist. if perhaps I am nice to people only as a way to control them. My conclusion? Everyone's a narcissist. Dan writing his column I consider a narcissistic behavior. I bet it arouses him every time he sees his name in print, andwhen he sees how many loyal readers and commenters he has. Who are you to judge? Egos rule us all, expressed differently.

I feel like I genuinely empathize with people. When I see someone in pain or suffering it breaks my heart. So there has got to be a good aspect of me. You never know. Maybe next time you fall through thin ice, I will be the first one to dive in after you. Without hesitation.

But this would be a narcissistic move. Even Jesus was probably aware how much impact his disregard for self preservation would have on the world. And I find suffering horrible because it makes me feel uncomfortable. When I see a bum on the street with no legs my heart goes out but only perhaps because he is a distraction from my pursuit of hedonic bliss, a distraction I can not ignore even after the bum is out of sight. The world is full of people that aren't even given a fighting chance and I can't keep my concentration on bedding lovelies very well when I know there are women and children being 'accidentally' blown up by USA flagged missiles made by Hewlett Packard.

My point? I don't know. But I do like being nice. I like making eye contact with everyone I meet and seeing their soul. I like to hear everyone's story, their frustrations and trials. Perhaps it is some sort of morbid sadistic tendency, but I think it might be more along the lines of genuine childish fascination with life and the world. Life itself I consider sacred and beautiful. Man, woman, child, dog, tree, bird. So much beauty. I feel like a baby staring at everything. Not everything equals sex. A sensual aspect pervades. I love to pet dogs and flirt with them, because dogs are beautiful creatures, not because I am a closet animal fucker or because I NEED attention.

So when I hold eye contact with macho men and they seem to get the urge to call me a faggot, perhaps the issue does not originate from me. I have wondered if I toy with insecure guys to control them. But I really think that when I look into their eyes, I try to see their soul, whatever a soul is, and understand them, because it make me uncomfortable when people don't understand each other. I just want everybody to get along. But it seems I make enemies when I try to make friends.

Like I witnessed someone say at a sports bar when football player and model Tom Brady came on the screen, "I just want to punch him. He's too pretty."

Oh and Dan I do flirt with attractive, secure guys too, I suppose. But I consider this friendship. You see eye contact does not become awkward when the person I am speaking to doesn't feel intimidated. It 'goes both ways' though. I recognize this behavior in myself. There have been times in my life when highly charismatic individuals have inflicted 'upstaging' anxiety in me. I wonder, did that happen because I was attracted to them, or attracted to what they represent, to their potential. Now that I am self confident, I do not get uncomfortable or nervous around handsome men.
More...
Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 8:04 AM · Report this
19
#14

Hello, this is DARE.

Sissy? I like to wear wigs? Please stop projecting your issues onto others. Please.

I enjoy doing both manly things and feminine things. I consider myself balanced. I can fight and also nurture. Get over your gender bullshit, please. And no, even if I was born with ovaries I hope I would not be into cosmetics and hair styling. NOT SEXY.

A message to women: there are guys, me included, out there that find your natural odor and arm pit/leg hair a turn on.
Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 8:08 AM · Report this
20
#14

Also, god damn. I fuck women to 'deny my gayness'. All these replies are laughable. No one likes to use the words 'beauty'. Maybe I like to touch and feel and be intimate with women, uh, like, because they are beautiful creatures, dude?

This reminds me of the 'Don Juan' accusation. That guys who get laid a lot might be actually 'gay' guys who are trying to fuck the gayness away.

I have pondered this too. In Woody Allen neurotic fashion I actually enjoy applying Decartes' tenet 'De omnibum dubitandem est'. EVERYTHING is to be doubted.

Conclusion? I actually enjoy being with women! I had fears of their mystery earlier on, and felt intimidated by them. I used to prefer hanging out with men, because I didn't feel sexual tension around men. But as I came to understand the plight of women (this world still tends to be very male dominated, I love women, but do not envy the obstacles they face), I dropped my guard and began to appreciate them for more than just a pair of tits. I stopped objectifying them, fucking them, and started to see them in their complexity, and make love to them.

Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 8:21 AM · Report this
mydriasis 21
@ Hunter

"sissy queer"?

Geriatric poster is geriatric.
Seriously, what decade are you living in?
Posted by mydriasis on September 7, 2011 at 8:30 AM · Report this
mydriasis 22
@ DARE/fish

I don't think you understand what "flirting" is?
Posted by mydriasis on September 7, 2011 at 8:32 AM · Report this
23
Honestly, I can totally sympathize with DARE. I rather identify with just about everything he is saying from the getting involved with women who are not available to the flirting and toying with men. The only difference is I have no problem teasing openly gay and attractive men. I am definitely not a masculine man, I have always been and continue to be quite effeminate. I am routinely addressed as "Miss" and I've been mistaken for a girl my entire life. I care about looking pretty, and smelling nice, and I love my beautiful long hair. In fact, there are many women who tell me they're jealous of my hair!

I've dressed up as a girl almost every halloween since the age of 10, and people have told me that I wouldn't wear skirt or wouldn't paint my nails or do something like that and I do quite enjoy proving them wrong.

People also automatically assume I'm gay because I have an appreciation for elegance. I love women, though I've messed around with men I don't particularly like it... so much hair and masculinity which definitely doesn't do it for me.

The question of gender issues is an interesting one. He says he doesn't, I don't really think I do, but I would bet money that he has doubts as I do. I don't want to be a woman; I don't think I'm a woman, but a love being beautiful, I love being elegant, I love soft silky fabrics, and smooth skin.

Do I enjoy traditionally feminine things more than masculine things? Absolutely. Do I enjoy being effeminate as opposed to masculine? Certainly. Does that mean I deep down want to be a woman and not a man? To be honest, I don't think so, but I'm not really sure.
Posted by creativityescapesme on September 7, 2011 at 8:44 AM · Report this
24
@18:
Wait, you "flirt" with dogs? ...Wha?
Posted by Scribbles on September 7, 2011 at 8:46 AM · Report this
25
@19, your response is exactly what we would expect from a narcissist. Exactly. It's not putting yourself, your work, your talents, your personality, or even your looks out there that makes anyone narcissistic, it OBSESSING ABOUT WHAT IT ALL MEANS ad nauseum, and believing we all really want to read another dissertation into your soul to reallyreallyreally understand you. You're not as interesting to everyone else as you are to yourself.

And I have known people who aren't ruled by ego. I married one of them. I was advised by another in grad school. They're fantastic. They make the best friends, and the best support, and it in no way undermines their talents.
Posted by anyes on September 7, 2011 at 9:19 AM · Report this
26
Wow. A comparison to Jesus? Suggesting Dan get's off to his name in print. An essay long response. I agree with 25. Eerily narcissistic.
Posted by ShoshiBee on September 7, 2011 at 9:38 AM · Report this
27
@10, I definitely agree that the woman in question may actually be interested in FIS, but I don't think that Dan's response is inherently "anti-woman". He didn't say she's definitely trying to keep her job by flirting, just that it's a possibility. And if she's all the things FIS says she is, its not hard to make the connection that she could be trying to use her looks to keep a job she doesn't want to work hard at.
And, yes, many people are VERY different outside of work than they are at work. However, if I meet someone who is entirely unmotivated and lazy at work, my concern would be as much about whether this person was capable of holding a job as it would be about whether or not they had these qualities in day to day life.
Posted by KateRose on September 7, 2011 at 9:42 AM · Report this
28
#23

I am not into grooming, hair, shaving, any of that shite. Luckily I have little body hair though. I think I would be unhappy if I grew a lot of chest and arm hair.

I do not enjoy wearing women's clothes. I think high heels were invented by ugly men to keep beautiful women from running away. Short dresses convey 'easy access'. I find women who dress very feminine or skimpily I tend to pay more attention to their bodies. Women who have more of a practical approach to fashion I believe have higher self esteem and I tend to value them for their faces and minds and conversation more.

Of course, every rule has exceptions. My point is, I do not relate to you in your gender definitions. I will marry a tom boy, an independent woman who is strong willed and has masculine traits, (but knows when to defer to natural leadership).

I do not have any gender issues because I am biologically a man. I am dominant, alpha, a good leader, and know how to take charge in situations of danger and duress. However I am great with children as well. I always seek balance in life. Dichotomous distinctions began with Aristotlean logic. Eastern philosophies do not seek to designate labels into separations like gay/straight, male/female. They seek to unite. Part of making love to women as I perceive it is the harmonization of opposites.

Psychologically I have both male and female traits, but I think everyone does. Binary, polarized gender I believe was socially constructed as a way to control populations.

Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 9:47 AM · Report this
ShifterCat 29
I have to add to FIS: someone who's lazy and rude to customers isn't going to be a good person to live with. You know how people are advised to watch how someone treats the waitstaff on a dinner date? Same principle applies: watch how your love interest acts around people they don't want to impress, because that's how they'll end up acting around you.
Posted by ShifterCat on September 7, 2011 at 9:50 AM · Report this
30
#24

Yeah see, I am a closet Zoophile. I like to touch dogs, I like the way they feel. I like them to lick my face...wait, confusing sexual with sensual again...

#26

I used Jesus as an example of narcissistic behavior. Achilles would have served as s similar example. People sometimes self sacrifice because they sense their name will live on in legend. Jesus probably knew how much brand recognition his name would have for time immemorial, Perhaps that was part of his motivation to allow his own capture. He could have escaped.

And yes, I think Dan Savage has a robust ego and self interest. Famous people enjoy the attention. Seems logical eh?
Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 9:51 AM · Report this
31
My understanding is that a narcissist is someone who in times of trouble will cash in -- so to speak -- a dollar's worth of someone else's well being to harvest a few pennies worth for him- or herself. This could be in the form of causing misery for someone else for the gratification of the control. This is in contrast to a sociopath, who will not wait until times of distress, but instead take every opportunity to do so.

As far as this can be done thoughtlessly, OBSESSING ABOUT WHAT IT ALL MEANS isn't a qualifier. Instead, what is a qualifier is the victim(s) the suspect leaves behind. It only seems weak to harass people for the victims they haven't made.
Posted by Mike Leung on September 7, 2011 at 9:52 AM · Report this
32
"You're not as interesting to everyone else as you are to yourself."

Actually, people tell me pretty regularly how interesting I am.
Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 9:53 AM · Report this
33
#31

Thank you. I believe I am a genuinely nice guy. I like to help people and I hate to see people in distress.
Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 9:57 AM · Report this
34
I just want to say that I have just read for the first time Savage Love!!! I LOVE it!!!! Great to see someone being honest, thank you!!!! From VividChik77
Posted by VividChik77 on September 7, 2011 at 10:13 AM · Report this
35
@9: yeah, this reminds me of a couple of people I've known, and "narcissistic sociopath" pretty much sums it up.

Or, "child". This is possibly excusable if he's under about age 20.
Posted by rca on September 7, 2011 at 10:40 AM · Report this
36
DARE,

I agree that it's a bit of a jump to diagnose you with something extreme like narcissistic personality disorder from an anonymous few letters. But you have the narcissistic/arrogant personality trait. Why? You accept no blame for your problems and refuse to own them.

What seems to be the primary problem is that you KNOW what you are doing affects others negatively and you KEEP doing it. The mature adult acts, gets a negative response that they don’t like, and STOPS or MODIFIES their actions and then LEARNS something from it.

If you didn't like the results of your actions you would stop. You have not. Therefore the only conclusion is that you LIKE or ENJOY it, or have no mental self-control or an alcohol problem.

Is it logical for someone to act gay around homophobes if they wanted peace and as you say "I just want everybody to get along.”? I agree that homophobes are disgusting, but you are obviously antagonizing people on purpose. Only an idiot would act gay around homophobes and expect something besides degust and anger.

Healthy mature adults realize their faults and learn to deal with them in order to be accepted by the people they care about and most of society. You demonstrate poor self-awareness by blaming ALL of your problems on everyone else. If your actions cause problems, you are at least partially at fault. You and everyone else possess faults and flaws, and the sooner you realize yours and deal with them, the happier everyone else around you will be. Stop blaming the shit that happens to you on everyone else; anyone who has studied conflict knows that BOTH PARTIES HAVE RESPONSIBILITY.

So in conclusion; yes, of course the homophobes, cheating women, and countless other people you have encountered have problems, but you are also half the problem.
More...
Posted by Endless on September 7, 2011 at 10:43 AM · Report this
37
Maybe DARE just wants more nonsexual involvement than most people are able/willing to handle without panicking. It takes maturity and self-confidence, and practice, to enjoy flirting.

Also, when I said DARE may have gender issues, I didn't mean that he is transsexual. I meant that, as he admits, he's unconventionally gendered. Perhaps his bigendered style and attitude (excuse the generalization) makes other people uncomfortable who repress them and try to conform to only one set. - Aquamarine
Posted by Aquamarine on September 7, 2011 at 10:54 AM · Report this
38
The problem with people like DARE is that once they happen upon you, you can't get rid of them - they'll just blab on and on about their view and philosophy... Yawn... Suggestion to DARE - why don't you start a blog and get the fuck out of this column? Those who find you interesting and want to be your friends will visit your blog, so the rest of the world and Savage Love readership can take a little breather from your empathy and niceness.
Posted by Kuka on September 7, 2011 at 11:07 AM · Report this
39
#36

Good points, and I agree, I press people's buttons. But what it comes down to I believe is the inherent competition in human dynamics. Perhaps instead of 'changing my behavior' as you reccomend, to suit others, I should just accept that I will be regarded, and regard others, as competition. I should let go of the naive hippie 'all is love' wishful thinking and learn to compete better.

My approach I suspect with homophobes should be not to get all confused when they assume I am gay, but rather to play into their insecurities MORE. In improvisation there is a rule. ALWAYS AGREE. Always say yes.

Saying yes holds more potency than 'no'. Saying yes can actually say 'NO' in a better way, through sarcasm and irony. "What are you, gay?' Reply: 'Oh yeah dude, I'm up to the rims of my glasses in anal cavity. Been wearing a tampon up my ass all day and never felt better.' People would be like WTF?! Saying yes with sarcasm conveys more confidence and security.

Blah blah blah. I digress. I don't think I should change my behavior as much as become a better competitor. I should stop obsessing about making friends and accept that I will always have enemies.
Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 11:15 AM · Report this
40
#37

Yes. Bigendered, with masculine dominance overall.
Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 11:16 AM · Report this
41
"Inherent competition in human dynamics" DARE?

What happened to "why can't we all just get along"?

Dan pegged you as a narcissist, but your comments on this board are more suggestive of sociopathy.

(((shudder)))

I feel sorry for anyone who is young/weak enough to get caught up in your bullshit worldview and superficial charm. "I'm pretty! I'm sensual! I'm nice! It's all about love, dude!"

Get some therapy.
Posted by apoptotic on September 7, 2011 at 11:33 AM · Report this
mydriasis 42
@41

oui. I personally can feel it coming out of the screen.

Or in other, perhaps more appropriate terms: I can feel your vibrations, brother, and they're not good.
Posted by mydriasis on September 7, 2011 at 11:41 AM · Report this
43
Three for three!
Posted by nonzenze on September 7, 2011 at 11:50 AM · Report this
44
That DARE guy is beyond in functional denial about being gay. It's too bad that he can't deal with it and takes it out on everyone else by being a deliberately-confusing idiot, but such is life.

D.A.R.E. / Pretty Little Hippie is as gay as the day is long.

The fact that he comes off as a self-hating, grandiose, full-of-shit, manipulative, side-winding, no-good, repressed motherf***er only underlines the fact that he is gay, and is trying with all his might not to be.

Join up with an unstable Scientologist, D.A.R.E. . All those details, all that trying..

You're Gay, D.A.R.E..

Bet you don't "D.A.R.E." tell your family or, gasp! Your girlfriend, or wife.

Own up, D.A.R.E.. You're Gay.
Posted by BombFactory'sOtherPersonality/mhsepultura on September 7, 2011 at 11:50 AM · Report this
45
Also, I love that DARE is convinced he's a nice, caring person who can't stand to see people be hurt... while he seeks out married women to fuck/fuck with.
Posted by anyes on September 7, 2011 at 12:03 PM · Report this
46
Wow, these comments are depressing.

Look, people, DARE is probably pretty young, thoughtful, unconventional enough to raise eyebrows, but he's not particularly strange or unique. I went to a small liberal arts college and met many kids like that. There's an entire culture of people obsessing about who they are, what they're like, and what it all means. Especially artsy or dramatically-inclined people. It's mostly harmless, if incredibly annoying.

He flirts/plays games with people because it's interesting, and young, thoughtful people like to experiment. He goes after women who are "taken" for the same reason everyone else lusts after unattainable things. The only problem here, really, is that most people are incredibly intolerant of uber-thoughtful people that they perceive to be out of touch with reality. Also that he's somewhat naive and immature, but eh. Odds are he'll grow out of it, eventually.

The sheer negativity of these reactions is absurd, especially the amateur, bizarrely hateful 'diagnoses'. That's not how mental illness works, people. What's going on here is actually more like how witch-hunts work. Tone it down.
Posted by aka90 on September 7, 2011 at 12:05 PM · Report this
47
DARE, I'm glad that you actually came around to engage here, but your continued commentary on yourself is, yes, overly egotistical in nature.

Just above, your behavior was questioned and you reframed it as an issue of human competition - the problem isn't anything YOU are doing, but rather what society is asking of you. Look, I relate to this massively as I think a lot of societal constructs here are BS. But based on the information you've provided about yourself, I have to agree with others that you're overly self-absorbed and your overthinking about yourself always leads you to find something outside yourself as the cause of your troubles.

I'm non-traditionally gendered also, so props to your non-conformity. However, too much ego is pretty repelling no matter how otherwise lovely the person.
Posted by TB on September 7, 2011 at 12:09 PM · Report this
48
#44

Oh yeah, so gay. So so gay. But help me. You see I want to own up to it, but when I have wet dreams, it is always about pussy, and the site of young, ovulating women makes me hard. Help, I'm so confused! I know there's no such thing as bisexuals, and that sexuality never changes over time depending on environmental factors. But I have not had a good gay man in my life to show me the ropes. Care to volunteer?

Creep.

Le sigh. Still waiting for a postmodern revolution.
Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 12:21 PM · Report this
49
I wrote a long post explaining exactly how DARE/outofwater is proving himself to be a narcissist - and then I deleted it all. Because, like trolls, narcissists thrive on attention and only stop when people stop paying attention to them, and I didn't want to give him something more to latch onto so he can talk more about his favorite subject.

note to #31 - what you defined in your post is an opportunist - quite different from what is being discussed here. A narcissist is someone who is obsessed with him or herself. The word comes from the Greek myth of Narcissus, a beautiful young man who was incapable of love until he saw a reflection of himself.
Posted by Jina on September 7, 2011 at 12:30 PM · Report this
50
#46:
"He goes after women who are "taken" for the same reason everyone else lusts after unattainable things"? What a load of crap. Flirting with someone who is taken is one thing. Routinely bedding married or partnered women is another.

You may have been around a lot of young people who "like to experiment", but I think you are confusing them with some who "likes to experiment" with other people's feelings. He also can't seem to keep his line of reasoning straight. One minute he saying, "I have been with quite a few women who are in relationships, or married" the next it's "When I see someone in pain or suffering it breaks my heart". How do these two things line up? Answer: they don't. DARE likes to project the image of someone who cares about people's feelings while carrying out the actions of someone who clearly doesn't.

And then there's the "I always seek balance in life" line, followed by "Perhaps instead of 'changing my behavior' as you recommend, to suit others, I should just accept that I will be regarded, and regard others, as competition." He says he seeks balance and love, but then scoffs at the suggestion of changing his intentionally provocative behavior so as not to provoke discord.

Of course none of us can diagnose. DUH. I can only speak for my comment, which was that DARE's behavior is "suggestive of sociopathy" and I (yes, rather rudely) told him to get some therapy. Who knows if he is beyond help? Point is, his attitude and behavior are douchey and potentially destructive to anyone who allows him into their life.

That much is crystal clear.
Posted by apoptotic on September 7, 2011 at 12:36 PM · Report this
lewlew 51
I agree with 44. It all sounds like desperate rationalization because this wonderful one could not possibly be gay. DARE actually brought to mind a pretty young man who was killed by his homophobic flirataion-targets. Careful there, dude.
Posted by lewlew on September 7, 2011 at 12:36 PM · Report this
52
@46, yes, I live in a small Ivy-league town where DARE's type runs rampant among the student population, although they are mostly immature entitled self-obsessed rich WASP girls who drive around in the Audi convertible daddy bought her and keeps going on like this at the next table in the restaurant until everybody around just wants to whack her. It is extremely uninteresting and annoying to everybody else, which makes some of the responses understandable.
Posted by cockyballsup on September 7, 2011 at 12:39 PM · Report this
53
#49

Nail. Head.

Signing off.
Posted by apoptotic on September 7, 2011 at 12:39 PM · Report this
54
"Please stop projecting your issues onto others. Please."

outofwater/D.A.R.E.: Why not practice what you preach, man?

You go out of your way to compound the details and the cover because you have too much to lose (or so you probably have been raised to believe) by Being A Man and admitting that you're actually gay.

All the self-help gibberish and "Oh, I am so nice to people..." is just a bunch of bullshit.

You are so accustomed to being a bullshit merchant that you now believe the very lies you try to get others to believe about you.

It must suck to be such a tall, manly-looking guy and yet wishing to be a foot shorter, with more feminine features... Ooh! Your luscious eyelashes! Your eyes that done dare (no pun intended) meet with anyone else's for long, because you (rightfully) fear people reading you for who and what you are: a sociopathic, self-centered, delusional, narcissistic, overly-analytical jerk.

I'm gay myself and I never wasted my time going to the ridiculous lengths someone like you goes through pretending that no one suspects you're gay.

You're Gay, outofwater.

Or, as someone I used to know who turned out to be a terminal asshole once said, "You're a HOMO."

Dan has a kinder heart than I do. Maybe you send him naked pics of yourself posing in front of a pair of closet doors to entice the likes of Dan to give you your attention you so insatiably crave.

You talk too much, you provide too many details and all of that goes to show that you're trying so, so, so hard to deflect from your real issues: you hating the fact that you're not only GAY, but that you are so lost in your own bullshit plot that you have no semblance of humanity, or, respect for anyone else: namely, their intelligence.

Don't you envy me, baby? Out and proud, 5'9" with a rather attractive face that can sometimes border on almost feminine, with a good shave...

You're so full of shit, D.A.R.E./outofwater.

If you have problems at this point in your life, then they are all on your shoulders: not your family's, not your wife's: no one elses.

As my father used to say: Dress up shit in a three-piece suit and what do you still have at the end of the day?

Shit.

Go start an off-Broadway production for your attention fix. You're as gay a rainbow.

Especially an August rainbow ;) .

Douchebag.
More...
Posted by IAmWhatYouFear: The Truth. on September 7, 2011 at 12:43 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 55
"DARE sounds like he might not identify as 'male' but as something else, which makes identifying 'gay' or 'straight' not really fit because these terms imply male+male or male+female. What's a 'sort-of-male' + a woman? There's no term for it and DARE may be using sexual terminology to understand what's really a gender issue.

As a person who finally realized my gender identity, not my sexual orientation, was unusual, and is and always has been a non-gendered female, not a woman, I've been there..."

Are you kidding me? DARE's a homophobic and inconsiderate wreck of a straight/cisgender.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 7, 2011 at 12:43 PM · Report this
56
You dream about ANAL PUSSY, outofwater.

Your dalliances with women are to compare makeup tips for applying blush to the apples of your cheeks as well as reenacting girl sleepover fantasies that you never had when you were a younger, closeted (still) gay little thing.

You are an asshole, and what makes it even funnier actually is how blind you are to that very fact.

Good Riddance.
Posted by IAmStillWhatYouFear: The Truth. on September 7, 2011 at 12:46 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 57
@18: "Also I have wondered if I am a narcissist. if perhaps I am nice to people only as a way to control them. My conclusion? Everyone's a narcissist. Dan writing his column I consider a narcissistic behavior. I bet it arouses him every time he sees his name in print, andwhen he sees how many loyal readers and commenters he has. Who are you to judge? Egos rule us all, expressed differently."

Nice to see the sociopath guess ring true, I suppose.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 7, 2011 at 12:48 PM · Report this
mydriasis 58
@46

"I went to a small liberal arts college and met many kids like that."

Um, exactly?

Diagnoses or no, certain kinds of mental illnesses and/or traits/problems are more common among certain populations. That's like me saying "your daughter isn't anorexic, I know lots of ballerinas that eat like that". If you don't understand the reference, go ahead and google where you'll find the highest rates of anorexia.

I wouldn't diagnose the guy but it's pretty obvious he's somewhat narcissitic (I'm not saying narcissistic personality disorder, that's different).
Posted by mydriasis on September 7, 2011 at 12:59 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 59
@56: I doubt it's a http://www.theonion.com/articles/why-do-… situation, he knows exactly what he's doing. He just enjoys fawning over the attention and apparently gets angry when they reciprocate the attention.

@20: "I have pondered this too. In Woody Allen neurotic fashion I actually enjoy applying Decartes' tenet 'De omnibum dubitandem est'. EVERYTHING is to be doubted."

Oh my stars, ponder yourself a hole in your head so we don't have to listen to this faux-intellectual trash any more. It's absolutely insufferable.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 7, 2011 at 1:22 PM · Report this
60
DARE needs the services of a therapist not a sex columnist.
Posted by WestSeven on September 7, 2011 at 1:45 PM · Report this
61
Am I the only person who thinks ANEMD sounds annoying? She primarily wants a boyfriend, but she'd be cool with a few chicks hanging around as disposable, non-threatening threesomes. Chicks like that are the reason I can't identify as bi on Craigslist without eight thousand couples pm'ing me under the assumption that all bi chicks want to be a living sex toy for a couple's one-night fling :P
Posted by nullandvoid on September 7, 2011 at 1:49 PM · Report this
62
[Me] "My understanding is that a narcissist is someone who in times of trouble..."

[@49] "note to #31 - what you defined in your post is an opportunist..."

No, not even if what I said was wrong.
Posted by Mike Leung on September 7, 2011 at 1:50 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 63
@61: It does seem like she's focusing on her (fairly conventional, as far as "fantasies" go) sexuality as why someone should be interested in her more than her personality.

I'm betting that people aren't saying no because she's just "too perfect", as people often claim.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 7, 2011 at 1:54 PM · Report this
64
I definitely agree with #38; DARE's biggest prob is diarrhea of the mouth, which he shows in both his letter and his subsequent posts here. Yawn.

And, I'm a bit confused: what exactly does Dan mean when he says "So basically, ANEMD, you're 26 years old and you're still single. Where do I send flowers?" Does he mean flowers as in mazel tov, or flowers as in I'm sorry your life seems so dead? I can't seem to get a reading on this.
Posted by wayne on September 7, 2011 at 2:26 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 65
@64: Flowers as in a slightly sarcastic "condolences", I read it as "not everyone pairs up with a lifemate at 21 and there's plenty of life ahead for you."
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 7, 2011 at 2:33 PM · Report this
66
I take "I'm every dude's dream, right?" not as a literal appraisal of herself as all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips, but as a wry comment on how a bi woman up for threesomes is supposedly the hit-the-jackpot universal fantasy of all red-blooded American males.

That said, if every single one of them tires of it after a while, I would say there is something about the way you are going about it that maybe leaves the guys feeling rather less 'primary' than you think (or than they want to feel). You say you want a primary partner, but are you clear on what it means to BE a primary partner?
Posted by avast2006 on September 7, 2011 at 2:59 PM · Report this
67
The only thing outofwater really needs is a hand mirror.
Posted by lortext on September 7, 2011 at 3:17 PM · Report this
scary tyler moore 68
hey, outofwater! get on out to seattle and i'll show you a good time (wink wink nudge nudge). no, i'm not a pretty young woman, but ya know what? once you've had fat, ya never go back, baby!
Posted by scary tyler moore http://pushymcshove.blogspot.com/ on September 7, 2011 at 3:19 PM · Report this
69
A comment for DARE:

For someone who sees beauty everywhere, you place a number of value judgements on a woman's appearance and choices. Wearing a skimpy miniskirt versus wearing a long flowing skirt, shaving one's legs or armpits, natural odors, etc, these choices often function as signals of social group (i.e. punk, hippy, sorority girl, genderqueer, etc) rather than true signposts of a woman's confidence, security and self respect. Confident and empowered women who are comfortable in their own skin come in all stripes and guises. Likewise, insecurity can manifest itself in tight clothing, baggy clothing, or perfectly tailored clothing.

Men also, are sorted into categories in your writing - homophobes, gay, confident straight guys, etc. You are not immune to this sorting and labeling. Everyone may be beautiful but everyone is also just a little bit (or even a lot bit) ugly too.

Know yourself, love yourself for your flaws and your strengths, do the same for others, regardless of category - if they treat you as an equal and worthy of respect.

Also, this sexually confident, feminist woman finds the phrase "make love to a woman" repulsive, and I'm sure I'm not the only woman out there who thinks the same. It focuses the act of lovemaking on your sexual prowess and objectifies the woman. If you must use the phrase "make love" then please make love "with" the woman rather than "to" her.
Posted by nameisaname on September 7, 2011 at 3:19 PM · Report this
70
@18, I'm just going to point this out before I get caught up in the rest of your hilarious comments and forget: TOM BRADY IS NOT A MODEL. Playing football is the only job he's ever had, and endorsements do not count as modeling.

Minor point? Yes. But shit, respect for the Pats.
Posted by chicago girl on September 7, 2011 at 3:24 PM · Report this
71
A comment for outofwater:

For someone who sees beauty everywhere, you place a number of value judgements on a woman's appearance and choices. Wearing a skimpy miniskirt versus wearing a long flowing skirt, shaving one's legs or armpits, natural odors, etc, these choices often function as signals of social group (i.e. punk, hippy, sorority girl, genderqueer, etc) rather than true signposts of a woman's confidence, security and self respect. Confident and empowered women who are comfortable in their own skin come in all stripes and guises. Likewise, insecurity can manifest itself in tight clothing, baggy clothing, or perfectly tailored clothing.

Men also, are sorted into categories in your writing - homophobes, gay, confident straight guys, etc. You are not immune to this sorting and labeling. Everyone may be beautiful but everyone is also just a little bit (or even a lot bit) ugly too.

Know yourself, love yourself for your flaws and your strengths, do the same for others, regardless of category - if they treat you as an equal and worthy of respect.

Also, this sexually confident, feminist woman finds the phrase "make love to a woman" repulsive, and I'm sure I'm not the only woman out there who thinks the same. It focuses the act of lovemaking on your sexual prowess and objectifies the woman. If you must use the phrase "make love" then please make love "with" the woman rather than "to" her.
Posted by nameisaname on September 7, 2011 at 3:26 PM · Report this
72
@69: "It focuses the act of lovemaking on your sexual prowess and objectifies the woman."

All his depictions of women are objectified. The letter here is a bit edited, he said in his opener "I have always been attracted to females."

FEMALES.

Dude is a PUA with a pansexual poet-gimmick. But, aside from a community college sociology class and perhaps a trip to Burning Man and an unopened copy of The Ethical Slut on his nightstand, he's your average misogynist popcollared fratboy.
Posted by whattaguy on September 7, 2011 at 3:29 PM · Report this
73
@71 - Exactly.

Similarly, his phrasing @28 bugged me: "I will marry a tom boy, an independent woman who is strong willed and has masculine traits, (but knows when to defer to natural leadership)."

Strength in a woman makes her "a tom boy," with "masculine traits"? And god forbid she should challenge your natural leadership?!
Posted by EricaP on September 7, 2011 at 3:34 PM · Report this
74
I should stop obsessing about making friends and accept that I will always have enemies.

DARE, are you Richard fucking Nixon? Enemies??? Most people accept that not everyone will like them, but making enemies is usually an activity confined to political/professional arenas. What exactly do you DO when you're socializing?
Posted by chicago girl on September 7, 2011 at 3:41 PM · Report this
75
@73: He wants a girl with a pixie haircut who won't talk back, and he's willing to trawl every gay houseparty/club in the city until he finds her.

@74: "What exactly do you DO when you're socializing?"

Mindgames, the sort of things that predatory people do.
Posted by dated a "sensitive new age" before on September 7, 2011 at 3:45 PM · Report this
76
@75, right on.

Seriously, if DARE hadn't mentioned not having a lot of chest hair and possibly wearing glasses, I would have sworn I dated him. Everything else is to a TEE.
Posted by ALSO dated a "sensitive new age" before on September 7, 2011 at 3:57 PM · Report this
More, I Say! 77
@32 is when my head exploded. Srsly, dude?
Posted by More, I Say! on September 7, 2011 at 4:05 PM · Report this
Kevin_BGFH 78
Dear DARE,

I don't think your situation is all that unique. I have a straight friend who sounds a lot like you. Several, actually, but there's one in particular who sounds so much like you that I kept trying to read between the lines in your original letter to look for clues that you might be the same person.

My friend is straight, but he often gets pegged for gay not only because he's sensitive and kind -- and flirty -- but also because he works and hangs out in a gay bar (albeit one with a fairly large lesbian clientele as well). That's how my group of friends met him. He also gets laid (with women) constantly, as there's a steady stream of bi women and gay-guy's-straight-female-best-friends coming into the bar. Women like that he's cute, friendly, sensitive, and not uptight hanging out their gay friends.

But one of the more endearing things about him is that his flirtatiousness is not about making jerks uncomfortable but also about making his gay friends more comfortable. When he comes in, he gives us all a hug *and* a kiss. (We generally don't even kiss each other, just hug.) When he pauses to chat with us, he'll casually rest his hand on our shoulder or back. He looks us in the eye when talking to us. He knows we find him attractive and it doesn't bother him -- twice I've managed, on a dare, to get him to play a stripping game *in public* down to his underwear. (In a place where he wasn't worried about getting in trouble, I doubt the underwear would be an obstacle, especially if there were also cute girls at least watching.)

Anyway, my only suggestion from your original letter is to also be friendly and flirty with nice gay guys, too, not just uptight homophobes.
Posted by Kevin_BGFH http://biggayfrathouse.typepad.com/blog/ on September 7, 2011 at 4:07 PM · Report this
79
he's kind of a Big Deal down at the asshole factory
Posted by ask any of the "ugly" wretches he surrounds himself with on September 7, 2011 at 4:10 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 80
"Anyway, my only suggestion from your original letter is to also be friendly and flirty with nice gay guys, too, not just uptight homophobes."

Nice gay guys are "ugly" and try to "suck his dick", which he's like totally not into!

He flirts with homophobes because he gets to prove how sensitive he is in front of prospective (female) sexual partners, and they won't flirt back. It's an angle, just another macho outlet.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 7, 2011 at 4:15 PM · Report this
81 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
82
@81: Spam somewhere else, you put your shitty site in every one of your posts.
Posted by go away, SEO spammer on September 7, 2011 at 4:20 PM · Report this
83
Dude. I can't even begin to care about this asshole. @outofwater, you basically fail at life. You are not as cool, deep or nice as you think. Mostly you just seem like a self-centered dick. I feel bad for the women who fuck you.
Posted by Mer-Mer on September 7, 2011 at 4:39 PM · Report this
Dougsf 84
Any defense of an accusation of narcissism that contains the phrase "even Jesus himself" is pure gold.
Posted by Dougsf on September 7, 2011 at 4:58 PM · Report this
85
Dare is a scum sucking piece of shit who leaves chaos in his wake. I'm surprised someone hasn't put him down like people do with ever other feral animal. He certainly doesn't act like he is part of the human race, but then I'm extremely biased when it comes to shit like him. Personally, I'd gut the SOB and stake him out so the scavengers could feast on his entrails. Although the could poison the poor scavengers and could be considered as an act of cruelty to towards animals. Rape the cows and shoot the women.
Posted by beentheredonethatgotthetshirt on September 7, 2011 at 5:15 PM · Report this
86
Oh, DAREfish.
Let me give you a TL,DR on your... everything you've written: "I keep doing this thing to people that makes them unhappy and uncomfortable, but I enjoy making them react. What's wrong with them? Why are they so insecure?"

Because it's creepy. Overtly, repeatedly, and unrepentantly sexualizing/eyefucking people who don't appreciate your interest is rude. Male, female, other, don't care. You breach the social contract by imposing your flirtation and objectification on people who don't like it.

I don't care how beautiful a hippie thinks my eyes/tits/unshaved legs are, if that person keeps staring at me in a sexually suggestive and unwelcome manner, I will probably be unhappy. And your so-sensitive self will is responsible for that in your victims. You make people feel bad. They get mad at you. If you a) don't want them to feel bad, or b) don't want them to be mad at you... change your behavior.

If you want to be able to flirt with people and not have them get mad, use the same cues everyone else does to figure out if someone is cool with your flirtation. It's not rocket science. You don't get to redefine the interpretation of your behavior ("It's just eye-contact!") by the general population. Just like you can't redefine verbal communication to be understood differently by the rest of the population ("When I said, 'Die, you narcissistic hippie,' I meant, 'You are beautiful like a star.'")

Also, you cannot see the soul of anyone by staring at any organ, and you definitely can't figure out anything deeply meaningful about a person when all you do is deliberately offend, irritate, and goad them. You want to be able to flirt with straight guys? Build a relationship where that behavior isn't going to be perceived as aggressive, irritating, or creepy.
More...
Posted by Kaliann on September 7, 2011 at 5:23 PM · Report this
87
@74 Of course Dare makes enemies. He keeps on poaching women in committed relationships without any intention of having anything, but sex with these women.
Posted by beentheredonethatgotthetshirt on September 7, 2011 at 5:24 PM · Report this
88
Oh my fucking god, DARE/outofwater sounds just like this guy I met a couple of months ago, right down to the pretty eyes and the gratuitous post-modern-gender-theory posturing.

If you don't feel gay around gay people, you're not gay. There was a great episode of Sex and the City in which Charlotte is embraced by lesbians in the arts community until one of them asks her the question they've all been wondering about (is she's gay?) to which she responds, "No, I'm not. But I do so enjoy the company of all these women. Everyone's so smart and funny. After spending too much time and attention on men...it feels like such a safe, warm environment. And while sexually, I feel that I am straight...there's a very powerful part of me that connects to the female spirit," to which the woman replies, "Sweetheart, that's all very nice. But if you're not going to eat pussy, you're not a dyke."

Just because the societal and cultural expectations for your desires and behaviours as a straight man don't match up with how you experience and express yourself as a straight man, doesn't mean that you're gay. If you see a beautiful guy and you have the impulse to push your face into his groin, then you might be bi, or maybe you're just one of those straight men who likes to fuck around with guys sometimes. But who knows? From everything you've laid out above, it seems to me that you're mostly just a flirt who overthinks and has WAY too much time on his brain.
Posted by ignatz ratzkywatzky on September 7, 2011 at 5:31 PM · Report this
Alanmt 89
outofwater:

So, do you look like James Maslow or not? I'm dying to know!
Posted by Alanmt on September 7, 2011 at 5:38 PM · Report this
90
Can someone please tell me what it means to "feel gay"?

My wife and I agree, we just feel like "me".
Posted by MaiaD on September 7, 2011 at 5:44 PM · Report this
seatackled 91
I now feel like this chihuahua.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYy9LysXA…
Posted by seatackled on September 7, 2011 at 5:52 PM · Report this
92
If only DARE could of started zer massive comment with "My point? I don't know." It's called a thesis statement.
Posted by Taurine on September 7, 2011 at 5:56 PM · Report this
93
@88: "Just because the societal and cultural expectations for your desires and behaviours as a straight man don't match up with how you experience and express yourself as a straight man"

i just don't see how he is expressing himself as anything BUT a straight man. it sounds like he's wearing a costume

even his hitting on men is reduced to situations where he's exploiting it to scare off potential "competition"
Posted by even if he wasn't unfeeling, he's more vanilla than anything on September 7, 2011 at 5:57 PM · Report this
94
LOL, 91! Right on! Who doesn't love a South Park reference!
Posted by MaiaD on September 7, 2011 at 6:14 PM · Report this
95
"As a person who finally realized my gender identity, not my sexual orientation, was unusual, and is and always has been a non-gendered female, not a woman, I've been there... "

Aquamarine, could you explain your gender identity a little bit more? I'm trying to parse it and am not getting it. Thanks.

Posted by curiousJo on September 7, 2011 at 6:14 PM · Report this
96
@87, well, yeah, but didn't you get the impression that he was talking about more than just the dudes he's cuckolded? Like he's just so intelligent and deep and caring and awesome that tons and tons of people are, like, totally threatened by him and become his enemy the moment he starts trying to look into their souls? Actually, now that I think about it, Nixon doesn't deserve the comparison.

And DARE's comment about how people are always telling him he's interesting is priceless. Everyone here on slog thinks you're interesting, dude, we just don't mean it as a compliment.
Posted by chicago girl on September 7, 2011 at 6:25 PM · Report this
97
The armchair psychologists have diagnosed narcissism, but from DARE's comment in 18, I'm getting schizophrenia. It's the way the rambling almost makes sense but doesn't really. It reminds me of a dream state, the way the mind gets when it's almost asleep or when on drugs. The information is there, but there's no sense to it. Metaphors become real. Poetry gets taken as seriously as prose. And then there's that reference to Jesus.

Yes, yes, I'm an armchair shrink too, and yes, I have no business making a diagnosis that grave from across internetland. But DARE, if you're listening, talk to a professional, one with a PhD, not a social worker. Strides have been made in treating mental illness whether it's a personality disorder or more serious. Have you been hearing voices that no one else can hear?
Posted by Crinoline on September 7, 2011 at 7:22 PM · Report this
98
@97: I don't think it's insanity but trying to wax philosophical to impress everyone he encounters. I'd put his age at ~23 from all the pseudointellectual garbage and cuckold shit-stirring.
Posted by still sounds much more like narcissism/bpd, though on September 7, 2011 at 8:07 PM · Report this
99
Mr. Savage's assessment of DARE was his usual mix of insight and snark, but some of these comments were harsh. I can't blame DARE for coming in and pointing out that he has good qualities as well. I think a lot of people on this thread were projecting too much onto parts of DARE's personality that were not addressed in the letter or Mr. Savage's response to it.

And gender is not bullshit. It is a biological reality to which society has reacted in many interesting ways. Does that mean that men with feminine traits aren't real men? Heck no.
Posted by DRF on September 7, 2011 at 8:08 PM · Report this
100
At the moment, Dare/outofwater is coming out of this looking a lot better than the dialup psychoanalysts. This blog gets a higher-than-usual incidence of correspondence from people who *actually* need therapy. I'd think you'd all be a little better at telling the difference.

Oh, and if 'reminds me of my asshole ex' = 'in need of legal, medical or spiritual intervention,' I'd be performing exorcisms on every skinny redhead zombie enthusiast I saw. And in Boston, that'd take a long time.
Posted by Torchy Blane on September 7, 2011 at 8:16 PM · Report this
101
DARE, you genuinely sound like a beautiful person - for some reason you have the right mix of neurotransmittors flowing through your brain -however that came about, good on you. I have seen and met enough people in my life to recognize purity, truth and intuition in people, and in my opinion you possess these traits.

Now, surely you should have realised that putting yourself out there on this type of "forum", would subject you to the dark side of human nature - sadly, most people enjoy tearing down those that shine an inner light a little brighter than their own, similar in fact to the anger or confusion that your positive energy incites in certain persons you look straight in the eyes. It's not only about sexuality, it runs much deeper. Actually, this is pretty important point - it is not only about the sexual energy between people, it is much more....

These people are living in pain - whether they realise it or not - in my opinion partially a consequence of (don't excuse me, while I hop on my soapbox), our socialization and the reality of the "American" lifestyle we are born into and raised to accept (without having much of a choice). They live in a "world" that is disconnected from the reality of the problems on this planet - and perhaps this is the cause of their pain and distress. These are the people that are horrified and pained by a little puppy getting maltreated, but eat animal flesh and wear animal skins, the people that can close off the killings and suffering caused to other humans by their government's armies in far away lands. They are intelligent and know and surely even feel somewhere deep inside what is happening, but they are unable to connect the dots and just go on living this disconnect which causes stress and pain. Consequently, they will not be motivated enough to take any action. It's very stressful for all intelligent people in all modern societies worldwide lving in this era, having at a click of your mouse, this information, yet living a life that basically perpetuates the suffering, or at least does little to change things.

If there were more little bright lights, like yourself, the world would be better. So, this perhaps is a suggestion if you are looking for more depth and meaning in your life. I dont know what it is, but as you go on your journey, continue to listen closely to your intuition and you will find it.

Peace little brother,
More...
Posted by bagel on September 7, 2011 at 8:25 PM · Report this
TVDinner 102
Uh, yeah, DARE is an insufferable twit who is way, way too interested in himself. Uh, DARE? Your parents said you were the greatest thing since sliced bread, because they're biologically programmed to think that. It doesn't mean you really are. Quit imposing your self-absorption on the rest of the world, shut the fuck up for a decade and see what you learn. You're really not that special.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on September 7, 2011 at 8:39 PM · Report this
103
maybe it is just me, but I have this awful feeling that DARE/outofwater is a serial killer who preys on women and gay dudes.
Posted by hai on September 7, 2011 at 8:58 PM · Report this
104
I also have dated someone with this MO (a bi woman). No longer communicate with her due to the inexplicable urge to break her face that would arise whenever she would again begin to explain in excrutiating detail how sad it was that everyone interpreted her nonconsensual emotional sadism as such instead of as a genuine effort to make a real connection and find herself. Some people just can't hear themselves.
Posted by catrin on September 7, 2011 at 9:06 PM · Report this
105
People like DARE are hilarious. HILARIOUS! Can we get a YouTube of this guy defending Britney Spears? Or maybe getting kicked off an airplane? Who's he trying to be, the hippie version of Kim Kardashian? "Oh, boo hoo! Why do people hate me so much? It must because I'm so much PRETTIER than they are! And DEEPER! And MORE SENSITIVE! When I'm trying to get in my neighbor's fiancee's pants while he's away on a business trip, I'm not being a shitbrained, mate-poaching, insecure asshole. I'm 'appreciating her beauty,' like Don Juan! Or like Jesus would have, if he'd had half my game! When I have to step over a legless bum in the street, I actually THINK ABOUT that dollar I could have given them. FOR THE REST OF THE BLOCK! Who does that?! It must mean I'm a philosopher, like Aristotle would have been if he'd had half my grasp of the abstract complexities of dominant societal paradigms. I hope someday to meet a nice, strong woman who will know to treat me like the Princess I am!"

You might want to save those 832 pictures of yourself you uploaded to Facebook onto a hard drive, DARE. It'll give you something to look at after you've aged about 10 more years and everyone else around you manages to find friends and partners despite not being nearly as "awesome" as you. But don't worry- if you end up alone, it'll TOTALLY be because you're prettier.
Posted by Diabolical on September 7, 2011 at 9:09 PM · Report this
106
To #95 who wrote,
"
"As a person who finally realized my gender identity, not my sexual orientation, was unusual, and is and always has been a non-gendered female, not a woman, I've been there... "

Aquamarine, could you explain your gender identity a little bit more? I'm trying to parse it and am not getting it. Thanks.
"

I consider myself outside the gender system. I don't feel male and I don't feel female. While I feel I have both (conventionally designated) 'male' and 'female' traits, I consider myself nongendered rather than bigendered, third gendered, or some other affirmative concept that involves gender. Some dykes, I'm sure, feel this way.

It goes way back, before age 5, and I think is a combination of wanting to feel 'special and different' and an awareness that boys got all the goodies and girls had to be passive and 'feminine' and I was going to reject anything that held me back. I rejected gender as a meaningful concept.

So while I am attracted to males only (believe me, I've had plenty of opportunities with women), I don't exactly consider myself straight. I identify with my biology (female) rather than a gender identity (woman). But I don't go around telling people "I'm not a woman".
Posted by Aquamarine on September 7, 2011 at 9:21 PM · Report this
107
I know I must seem self obsessed. And I have had a lot of time to think in my life, a blessing. Never had to hold down a full time job. Basically traveled a lot, worked some, but lived like a dharma bum from Kerouac's 'On The Road'. Plenty of(too much?) time to philosophize.

I skate by on my good looks and charm, I admit. But I realize that people so often like me because of how I look and that makes me uncomfortable. I understand how much of life is base don appearance.

Personally I feel that a reason why conflict occurs between me and my brothers when they realize that women pay more attention to me than to them, or that I have more potential to get laid. They are faced with their own lack of physical beauty. This makes me kind of sad. I think that the world will not be at peace until all men (the ones who are interested in sex with women) have access to regular lovemaking with beautiful women (or a woman, I am increasingly interested in monogamy).

I have slept with married women because I can, but also because these women were not happy at home. I regret doing it, but I have learned a lot about relationships. Women open up to me. I guess what I have learned makes me sad, because I have concluded that for the most part people are miserable in the world. Fear and desperation trump happiness. We live under strict hierarchies, power structures, and domination. Not a fertile foundation for self actualized, confident and complete human beings methinks.

To the men who think I am just a closet case, go ahead and try to reduce this discussion to simple either/or false dichotomies. At best I would admit I am bi, under certain circumstances, but even that label I personally find lame. Label yourself whatever you want, but keep your labels to yourself. Not everyone is running the same operating system you are. I would suggest you check out linux. It is much more open minded thatn your mac/windows dualism.

For those that had constructive words and specific criticism, thanks. I enjoy dialogue, and I think it is important that we all continue to ask tough questions. The plight of humanity is far from over. Open dialogue can help us, I have faith.
More...
Posted by outofwater on September 7, 2011 at 10:34 PM · Report this
108
You are just the most pretentious twat with the least interesting things to say, aren't you?

Why bother trying to appear literate? All you'll achieve in life is to be a trust-fund himbo.
Posted by And yet you are desperate for our approval on September 7, 2011 at 11:00 PM · Report this
109
Congrats, Dan, you earned your vacation, right here, by choosing three letters you knew would rile your regular audience. While I'm especially impressed with the sheer venom of persons who reacted with quivering hatred to DARE (rather than just ignoring him, LIKE THEY CONSTANTLY TOLD EVERYONE ELSE TO DO), I have another reason for praising your inclusion of his letter.

You literally presented your readers with "every straight guy's dream", and her letter got far, far fewer responses than did DARE's! Bravo, sir, well-played! Martini?
Posted by tensor on September 7, 2011 at 11:23 PM · Report this
110
@106, have you talked about this with your female friends? I think it's more common than you think. I don't feel particularly female or male, myself, I feel like "me" (thanks, MaiaD@90!) Some rough days, I don't even feel like myself, I feel like a consciousness oddly stuck in this body I barely know how to operate.

As far as girly things, in my teens I avoided them like the plague. But I like guys, so I learned that I needed to flirt and dress like a woman if I wanted guys to notice me sexually. Feel free to identify however you want, but don't assume that everyone in a dress feels like a woman.
Posted by EricaP on September 7, 2011 at 11:56 PM · Report this
111
@109: Did you look at ANEMD's original letter of the day? She got a ton of responses there and she also posted on that thread. Whereas DARE replied in this thread, which is why everyone focused on him.
Posted by BlackRose on September 8, 2011 at 12:59 AM · Report this
112
Dare, you are a tiresome, tiresome, tiresome boy.
Posted by Learned Hand on September 8, 2011 at 1:27 AM · Report this
113
Hi Dare

I doubt you should take any of the negative comments seriously. Whats evident is that you influence people easily and have an advantage.
I'm sure that will cause a lot of jealousy.

To me morality is a made up convention, which is unequally crafted through the advantages of the powerful, as by the bottom interests of the meek. Which is in a roundabout way simply that only might makes right.

If I were in your 1/100 situation I wouldn't allow the statistically normal to influence me one bit, with counter arguments attempting to dominate my world view and perspective.

However I'd also like to take a more pragmatic stance - your advantage will possibly also cause you loneliness. People are selfish and will only hang out with you if there's something in it for themselves, and the old saying fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fits. The moment they realize they can't get anything out of you, they will take stances from manipulating public sentiment about you to your detriment (showing their own might and influence), to ignoring you.

Use people strategically. Don't allow mediocre's to dim your shine. Don't read the same books your neighbors do if you don't want to be as ignorant as them. Don't look to others to define your limits. Create your own identity. I'm sure you could become something to behold if you really wanted. Think big.
Posted by bukboy on September 8, 2011 at 3:00 AM · Report this
114
107-DARE-outofwater-- Why did you write to Dan? Why are you writing follow-ups? Usually the letters in his column are from people asking for advice. They agree or disagree. Sometimes the letters in his column are from people voicing opinions. Again, there's agreement and disagreement. Your letter is about talking about yourself. Your subsequent comments are about talking about yourself. You say you're frustrated, not confused, and the problem is with everyone else's confusion. What do you want, for us all to boo-hoo along with you? And yet, according to you, you're not a narcissist, a manipulator, (or my guess: schizophrenic). What sort of response are you looking for?
Posted by Crinoline on September 8, 2011 at 3:04 AM · Report this
115
"I think that the world will not be at peace until all men (the ones who are interested in sex with women) have access to regular lovemaking with beautiful women"

*PFFT* HAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by xexyzl on September 8, 2011 at 3:20 AM · Report this
116
Disappointing edit of DARE's original letter.

Only one "so to speak", and it no longer includes the hilarious description of his lovemaking style as "cinematic".
Posted by GasparFagel on September 8, 2011 at 5:36 AM · Report this
117
@106, @110:

I am biologically male and also identify with what you're saying. I've thought sometimes about transitioning to female gender but realized mainly I would far prefer living without a gender, or, in my ideal world, getting to go out as a man or a woman on different days. I've realized I probably will never actually transition as part of my desire is that women seem to have more ability to dress in feminine or somewhat masculine clothes/presentations without attracting quite the derision of a man in a skirt, makeup and manicure, and I think that given that I don't have an extremely, extremely intense desire to be a woman 100% of the time, it's probably not worth the hassle of transitioning.
Posted by rb on September 8, 2011 at 5:45 AM · Report this
118
@116 HA, That's right! Personally, I like the coy use of "pegged, so to speak" while he's complaining about how people react negatively when they perceive him as gay and flirtatious. Woe is me.
Posted by ShoshiBee on September 8, 2011 at 5:59 AM · Report this
119
@107, DARE,

A). Everyone is self-obsessed. Not everyone shows it.

B) Your sexuality and gender are what they are. Folks, stop carrying water for the "choice of lifestyle" crowd!

C). If you truly love others, then you must understand could versus should. Life is filled with "I could, but I won't" moments. Many are at the heart of what it means to be a caring person, and doing things because you can is usually the mark of an uncaring (in spectrum to vicious) person. You may be pretty on the outside, but failing to care about consequences for others makes you rather ugly on the inside.

Peace.
Posted by Married in MA on September 8, 2011 at 6:07 AM · Report this
120
@107, DARE,

A). Everyone Is self-obsessed. Not everyone shows it.

B) Your sexuality and gender are what they are. Folks, stop carrying water for the "choice of lifestyle" crowd!

C). If you truly love others, then you must understand could versus should. Life is filled with "I could, but I won't" moments. Many are at the heart of what it means to be a caring person, and doing things because you can is usually the mark of an uncaring (in spectrum to vicious) person. You may be pretty on the outside, but failing to care about consequences for others makes you rather ugly on the inside.

Peace.
Posted by Married in MA on September 8, 2011 at 6:10 AM · Report this
121
Fuck. I screwed up on the closing tag.

Sorry
Posted by Married in MA on September 8, 2011 at 6:12 AM · Report this
122
To the webmaster,

May the posters please get the ability to edit their own posts after submission?

Peace.
Posted by Married in MA on September 8, 2011 at 6:18 AM · Report this
Lechugo 123
Everyone is so judgmental Dx!

OMG!! I am so judgmental!!! Dx!!!
Posted by Lechugo on September 8, 2011 at 6:24 AM · Report this
124
Dan's second holiday in two months and a column that's nothing but rehashes from previous Slog letters of the day.

It appears that Dan Savage's body has been taken over by the disembodied spirit of the late Peter Gzowski of CBC. We should start seeing annual three-month sabbaticals any day now.
Posted by seeker6079 on September 8, 2011 at 7:10 AM · Report this
125
@114 Thanks for saying what I was thinking. What is DARE/outofwater looking for here? It seems that it is attention.

My head-shaking conclusion ... whatever they pay shrinks, it's not enough.
Posted by Krunch on September 8, 2011 at 7:19 AM · Report this
tomsj 126
Okay, I'm read out. The lull in my day is over. Back to work.

Talk about a great way to get your narcissistic rocks off: write a letter like DARE's, which basically screams "LOOK AT ME," and then, when everyone does, engage them in conversation about the fine points of your personality. It's your fifteen minutes of fame, baby. Bask in it.
Posted by tomsj on September 8, 2011 at 7:58 AM · Report this
127
DARE's comments show just how narcissistic he is. How quickly he responded to comments and brushed off any possible opinions on himself. He's not open to interpretation by others himself - he has himself all figured out! Why the hell write then? Clearly he wrote to get validation by having his letter published and then by discussing himself ad nauseam in the comments. How special and important he must be!

Also, to 124 - Jesus, can't a guy take vacation? Good for Dan for being able to take time for himself and his family.
Posted by Elsie on September 8, 2011 at 8:07 AM · Report this
128
@107, Oh you poor misunderstood dharma bum you.
Posted by new york state of mind on September 8, 2011 at 8:08 AM · Report this
129
wow, DARE, you sound like my ex-boyfriend. And he was an insufferable holier-than-thou D-bag, too.
Posted by Meg84 on September 8, 2011 at 8:11 AM · Report this
130
My Dryasis,

"Geriatric poster is geriatric."

Is agism acceptable in your social group? Do you consider your statement intelligent?
Posted by Hunter78 on September 8, 2011 at 8:25 AM · Report this
131
114-- I'd also guess DARE is looking for sympathy, and we're not feeling sympathetic because we see him as wanting sympathy for a completely solvable problem.

There's another typical letter with a thousand non-typical variants. That's the one where someone writes that s/he is attracted to xyz and can't find it. Sometimes xyz in physically impossible. Sometimes it's merely unlikely. The writer is looked down on for holding the unusual attraction (or kink) and deserves sympathy because in this world where not all of us get what we want, the writer is unlikely to find his/hers heart's desire.

But that's another category of letter that DARE hasn't written. He's frustrated because he confuses people.

O.K., DARE, here's a clue: You can get over your frustration by stopping confusing people.

Don't flirt inappropriately. Don't lead people on. Don't seek to destroy relationships and then whine about it.

Decide on boundaries between friendship and sex; make those boundaries clear, and stick to them.

Stop defining yourself as a good sensitive person by your response to other people's pain (heartbroken), and start defining it by your own ability to alleviate pain (might rescue someone but might not).

When someone tells you something that both hurts and is true, stop accusing the truth-teller of projection.

These things are all within your control. You don't have to have gender issues to be a jerk. So stop being a self-absorbed jerk.
Posted by Crinoline on September 8, 2011 at 8:32 AM · Report this
132
Lordy I have tried to get into this but every time I try to take a run at one of DARE/fish's posts I get a terrible case of tl;dr. One of the best things about getting into your thirties is that you magically develop the ability to recognise the kind of bullshit that guys like this spew. Dude could be hotter than Alexander Skarsgård in a wet bathing suit contest and it wouldn't matter. Pretty is as pretty does.
Posted by teamcanada on September 8, 2011 at 9:12 AM · Report this
133
Oh shit, I think I worked with DARE. He was a sociopath, and he was all peace-love-hippie that threatened me on the job. THAT wasn't quite enough to fire him, because it was his word against mine (of course he did it when no one was watching) but then he drank a glass of wine on the job (total no-no) and was escorted out.
Posted by MinnySota on September 8, 2011 at 9:27 AM · Report this
134
I'm gonna echo the most important response to DARE's totally lame, ignoring-everything-Dan-said response:

You can't see someone's soul by looking in their eyes. Stop trying and that'll solve a lot of problems. You think you're connecting with everyone when you're actually connecting with no one.
Posted by Belle Starr on September 8, 2011 at 9:33 AM · Report this
135
@101 I guess you're an anti-war activist living off the grid, eating only plants, and using absolutely no plastic ever in your life. But since you had to be on a computer to write this...

We're all a part of the system and people have varying degrees of awareness and resistance against the many problematic aspects of modern day life. I take action against it all the time through my diet, my full-time job, my buying choices and my community organizing. And I also often say "fuck this, I'm tired" and go marathon 30Rock.

And I still think DARE's an obnoxious narcissist who seems to see everything in terms of beautiful (himself, women) and not beautiful (most other men, who are envious of him). He's also had a fucking easy life if he's never had to work full-time. I suspect his takeaway from this whole experience will not be about a couple hundred comments telling him "you're doing it wrong," but "bagel understands me!" Alas.
Posted by TB on September 8, 2011 at 9:51 AM · Report this
136
"You can't see someone's soul by looking in their eyes."

What? Didn't George W do Putin?
Posted by Hunter78 on September 8, 2011 at 10:04 AM · Report this
Corylea 137
"I think high heels were invented by ugly men to keep beautiful women from running away."

*laugh* You may have some problems, DARE, but that's the best line I've heard all week!
Posted by Corylea http://corylea.com/ on September 8, 2011 at 10:19 AM · Report this
138
I think DARE is fake. Now his brothers are jealous of his good looks and potental for scoring hot chicks? I mean he's pushing buttons like a toddler on a keyboard. All over the place. If he was really as he describes himself he really would have no friends. Its a fake. Haha you all got taken in by him/her. Hippie my ass.
Posted by jojo on September 8, 2011 at 10:43 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 139
@101: "DARE, you genuinely sound like a beautiful person - for some reason you have the right mix of neurotransmittors flowing through your brain -however that came about, good on you. I have seen and met enough people in my life to recognize purity, truth and intuition in people, and in my opinion you possess these traits."

A sucker's born every minute. This is how sociopaths thrive, people who take their blather as sincere.

@107: "Not everyone is running the same operating system you are. I would suggest you check out linux. It is much more open minded thatn your mac/windows dualism."

Ok, now I'm convinced. Either this guy is dumber than dirt, the letter and every post since is an active troll, or both.

@113: "Use people strategically. Don't allow mediocre's to dim your shine. Don't read the same books your neighbors do if you don't want to be as ignorant as them. Don't look to others to define your limits. Create your own identity. I'm sure you could become something to behold if you really wanted. Think big."

Uh, sociopaths *are* mediocre people. If they could succeed on their own merits and make emotional connections with others, they wouldn't need to exploit anyone. They are ugly, sad people (which explains why he needs to constantly tell us that people find him charming, when we know that's not the case.)
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 8, 2011 at 10:43 AM · Report this
GQbd 140
While everyone has been obsessed with DARE (Whatever), I've been thinking about ANEMD (without benefit of palm oil, thank you).

At first, assuming that she dates age appropriate, I was tempted to speculate on what mid-twenties were looking for, or starting to look for in a relationship, but that's been 30 years for me, so what do I know. Next I was tempted to say that, in spite what one might infer from Dan's columns, monogomish is not for everybody. I dare say that for those it does work for it might take a bit more maturity and even self confidence than is found in many people in their mid-twenties; an age when (based on my observations)people are either settling down or just having fun sleeping around. That caused me to think that ANEMD should look at older guys who have had their kids and don't mind that their girlfriend gets around. A guy like that might even know women his own age who need some attention from time to time themselves. Of course, age differences can be fraught with problems as well.

It was then that I re-read her letter and got stuck on the phrase "I'm every dude's dream, right?" and I thought, Whoa. What if a guy wrote a letter complaining about not being able to get in a relationship and said "I'm God's gift to women, right?" Dan and everyone would have been on him like stink on shit. It strikes me that ANEMD needs to take a serious mirror break and ask herself whether she's dragging an unseemly attitude into this relationship quest. After that she can follow Dan's advice.
Posted by GQbd on September 8, 2011 at 10:44 AM · Report this
141
@ 83: You're right on the money.
Posted by Somewhere In Illinois on September 8, 2011 at 10:54 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 142
@140: "What if a guy wrote a letter complaining about not being able to get in a relationship and said "I'm God's gift to women, right?" Dan and everyone would have been on him like stink on shit."

People generally responded with rolleyes in the SLLOTD thread.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 8, 2011 at 10:59 AM · Report this
143
"But allow me to unpack your bullshit for you"

"Not that there's anything wrong with a sadistic streak, properly channeled."

"You're the satyr, DARE, not the faun. Own it."

Ah, Dan, this is why I love you so.

jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
Posted by inbed http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.com on September 8, 2011 at 11:02 AM · Report this
144
@86 Kaliann had the best (and kindest) advice. I truly hope, for his own sake, that DARE takes it.

As for the people who stuck up for DARE.... Folks, there are plenty of weird people out there, and it's okay to be weird. There are also weird assholes, and that's not okay. DARE may have a beautiful appearance and a beautiful soul, but he acts like a freaking scary creep.

Posted by Drusilla on September 8, 2011 at 11:12 AM · Report this
easye 145
@ANEMD..please visit North Vancouver whenever you can.
Posted by easye on September 8, 2011 at 11:21 AM · Report this
146
@138, Jojo, You're so wrong. ("I think DARE is fake. If he was really as he describes himself he really would have no friends. Haha you all got taken in by him/her. Hippie my ass.")

I used to go out with a guy just like this. Beautiful man, 99.44% straight, oddly gendered, flirted with (and provoked) guys, attracted women right and left, eyefucked everyone (love that term). I loved him because it really did seem that he could communicate directly with my soul. What a load of crap that was! He was critical in the extreme, wanted everyone else to follow his rules about how men and women should act. Oh, my god, I'm so oddly relieved to know there's others like him and that somehow it wasn't all my fault.

Sociopathic types can attract many friends. They can be charismatic and beautiful. He's for real, all right.
Posted by Drusilla on September 8, 2011 at 11:21 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 147
@144: "As for the people who stuck up for DARE...."

Ah, but scary creeps stick up for scary creeps. See the PUA community that this guy escaped from. It's all about conquests for these guys.

@146: I dated a borderline for years, they talk like this. But, their rambling, self-centered, and otherwise braindead manner of speech is predictable and easy to imitate if you can sound so undeservedly pretentious without puking.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 8, 2011 at 11:26 AM · Report this
easye 148
@142 I can see why people would get upset @ that comment, but from my perspective it IS my dream. I don't see anything wrong with ANEMD acknowledging that her preferred lifestyle choice ranks tops among a lot of men's desires too. She made the mistake of choosing the wrong words is all.
Posted by easye on September 8, 2011 at 11:37 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 149
@148: "from my perspective it IS my dream. I don't see anything wrong with ANEMD acknowledging that her preferred lifestyle choice ranks tops among a lot of men's desires too"

You're missing the point, what people were rolling their eyes at was that she pretended that no guys were into it, when people were probably getting turned off by things left unsaid by her.

She also mentioned it as if it were her greatest attribute, as if possessing it meant that guys would be beating down her door just for that reason. In reality, it's an element of her desired relationship, but she didn't mention any other context, which led us to fill in the plentiful gaps. Most men may like that fantasy, but reality often gets in the way of any fantasy, especially when spread out over time in the context of a committed relationship. She could be an inconsiderate lover/partner, who knows?

The less information she gives combined with how much she talks herself up as any guy's dream leads to suspicion about what exactly she's leaving out.

Does that make sense?
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 8, 2011 at 11:47 AM · Report this
Sunnybunny1269 150
Anemd - You'll find guys that like that, trust me on that. My husband is all about sharing me with other women and most of his friends think he's lucky on that one.
Posted by Sunnybunny1269 on September 8, 2011 at 11:49 AM · Report this
Sunnybunny1269 151
I really like DARE. Guys like that frequently make my day.
Posted by Sunnybunny1269 on September 8, 2011 at 12:11 PM · Report this
152
151

Hilariously un-self aware people make your day?
Posted by ginormousj on September 8, 2011 at 1:16 PM · Report this
153
I don't know who I feel sorry for DARE or the people who have met him in real life and had to endure his presence. Personally, after reading his replies, I really don't think he's looking for advice, but attention, he seems to want to test how much sh*t he can stir and how many people will notice him(much like his real life).

My advice for DARE would be to be careful of the husbands of the married women he's sleeping around with. Your pretty face might not be so pretty anymore after a crazed husband is done with it.
Posted by Percy on September 8, 2011 at 1:26 PM · Report this
154
I don't know who I feel sorry for DARE or the people who have met him in real life and had to endure his presence. Personally, after reading his replies, I really don't think he's looking for advice, but attention, he seems to want to test how much sh*t he can stir and how many people will notice him(much like his real life).

My advice for DARE would be to be careful of the husbands of the married women he's sleeping around with. Your pretty face might not be so pretty anymore after a crazed husband is done with it.
Posted by Percy on September 8, 2011 at 1:33 PM · Report this
155
@153 "I don't know who I feel sorry for DARE or the people who have met him in real life and had to endure his presence."

The latter, definitely. Those same people who are his "enemies" are probably the same people who tell him he's "interesting" and "beautiful" telling others what they *really* think about him when he's not around.
Posted by my guess on September 8, 2011 at 1:38 PM · Report this
156
Dear ANEMD,

I'm a 23 bi female, and though I do not typically go for ladies older than me, you sound pretty awesome, so I am willing to make an exception.

Currently, I am dating a man, and we would like a lady to occasionally share our bed. I want a super awesome best friend girlfriend "let's all go on a fun date at the arcade and then a movie and then some wine at home" sort of a lady friend.

I realize that maybe this isn't quite what you want, but if you are willing to consider this option, I would also be totally down with finding you a dude as well, while we three party it up.

What do you say?
Posted by Emaline on September 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM · Report this
157
I am numb with all the judgements and guesses and attacks and assumptions. DARE presumably wrote in to get a response from Dan. DARE wanted to put something out there and was fairly thorough in trying to describe how he percieves himself. Dan responded, quite fairly and acurately in my opinion. Now everyone has taken it upon themselves to give their opinions. Who is the narcissist, who is the sociopath, who here is so much better?

I feel like everything that has been said has been after the fact. The fact being that DARE wanted to talk to Dan, and Dan saw fit to reply to DARE. Of course Dare will talk about himself and his opinion of himself as well as his opinion of others. THAT IS THE POINT. Why would he have written to an advice columnist to talk about someone else? Does that really make a person a narcissist? I guess Dan is a shephard of narcissists. :P

Sociopath? What kind of a sociopath bares all his sociopathy everywhere he goes? Would it not behoove said individual to try not to be so open about what they do and want and like? As far as I can tell, DARE is a self aware individual, who has many blind spots. As we all do. But the fact that he actually takes the time to try to break down his ego and motivations is a good sign. If everyone in the world exposed their true motivations I think we would see a very similar trend form.

Most folks do want to be acknowledged. Most people like being considered attractive. Alot of people I know including myself do like feeling that they have at least some control over how people treat them, percieve them, and interact with them.

I want to point out that DARE has been talking about himself here (instead of on a blog) because he was hoping to get some insight from Dan and Dans loyal followers. If only to see what opinions others had. I highly doubt that he walks around talking to everyone he meets in this same manner. I imagine Dare likely asks other people about themselves ALOT, hence why he has so many clear opinions on verious aspects of other people.

DARE, a final word to you. Be honest with people. Don't get involved in other peoples relationships, that is bullshit. If you really are as self realized as you portray yourself to be you know that it is innapropriate and of poor character to do that. Prove your integrity by not engaging with people who are in relationships. And as for flirting with homophobes, be careful. I do it sometimes, when I have people around me to help in case of trouble, but it can easily become dangerous. Watch Pricilla Queen of the desert for a scene of what could happen. (love that movie :)

Oh and be careful of Jesus references or people might start saying you have a martyr complex It is not like Jesus was one of the most well known men in earths history or anything :P. Also, there are plenty of references in the bible and popular culture (equally relevant) to Jesus questioning why people idolize him and not themselves, or God for that matter. You have a point but you are definately just stirring the pot by name dropping that cat.

Dan, you are the man. And if you were not married, (good on you and your mate), I would definately want to spend some quality time exploring sexuality with you :D
More...
Posted by Madhatterbenjamin on September 8, 2011 at 2:45 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 158
@157: "But the fact that he actually takes the time to try to break down his ego and motivations is a good sign"

"Sociopath? What kind of a sociopath bares all his sociopathy everywhere he goes?"

All I see here is a guy who admires a fellow bullshit artist.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 8, 2011 at 2:48 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 159
That or someone completely unable to see a lack of sincerity and empathy before him. Don't be so gullible.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 8, 2011 at 2:51 PM · Report this
160
I did not say I admire DARE. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that what he is expressing is his true opinion and feelings. He wrote in to talk to Dan. Everyone decided he was a piece of shit. I thought I would at least back him up for the sake of fairness. His one expressed failing besides obviously being to wordy, self attentive and intellectual for most folks, is that he fucks with other peoples relationships. He has many less than attractive traits, but everyone does. Why is it that so few people are willing to give a stranger the benefit of the doubt?

I tell people when they are bothering me, or I don't hang around them. From the sounds of it DARE has no trouble finding people to hang out with, he is just blind to the reality that his attitude is a bit holier than thou to most people. In the book Stranger In A Strange Land, Robert Hienlien writes at the end about how humanity will always kill its saviours. The wisest, truest, clearest among us will be vilified and destroyed by the masses, mainly out of fear.

Now DARE, don't get it in your head that I or anyone thinks you are a saviour, but I do feel that when many people are quick to jump on and tear into a fellow human, merely for expressing themselves and showing who they feel they are. I pay attention to that person. Chances are they have something important to share that challenges the staus quo and I want to know what that might be. Look at the gay community, gay people are despised and attacked for who they are, and what they express and represent. But as the years pass, we see just how much they really do have to offer. Far more than any homophobe who spends their life hating and hurting.
Posted by Madhatterbenjamin on September 8, 2011 at 3:13 PM · Report this
polygrrl 161
Wow! A little blood in the water and the piranhas go wild!

Personally, I think DARE is a bit narcissistic, but not so much more than most people I've met - he at least seems to be trying to understand himself, and become aware of both the real reasons people react to him and his own motives for doing what he does.

I think he's only beginning to scratch the surface, but I think a lot of people don't even try. He should consider the criticism he has sought here, but not accepting some of it does not automatically mean he is in the wrong. And he does not at all seem to be without empathy, even though he may have a bit of a sadistic streak, what with making some people uncomfortable on purpose (at least he's aware he's doing it though, and has some remorse! How many people do it who aren't even conscious of it?)

I think he needs to find something constructive to do with his life- a purpose that will give him something to focus on besides himself. Without the need to earn a living or be responsible for someone else, most of us would become a bit narcissistic, especially if a lot of people found us attractive physically, because we'd have too much time to think about ourselves.

DARE, go find something you believe in in this world. Get a cause that will let you use your energy for something besides navel gazing and pleasure-chasing. You'll feel better. And you'll hopefully do others some good as well.
Posted by polygrrl http://www.polygrrl.com on September 8, 2011 at 3:15 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 162
@160: "His one expressed failing besides obviously being to wordy, self attentive and intellectual for most folks"

Yes, but he's not self-conscious, and his "wordy intellectualism" is meaningless drivel.

If he was actually trying to be self-conscious instead of gazing longingly at himself in a handmirror, if he actually cared why people Dan and others might think he's obnoxious and juvenile, that would be one thing.

@161: "he at least seems to be trying to understand himself, and become aware of both the real reasons people react to him and his own motives for doing what he does."

I see no evidence of this. It's all "they think i'm too pretty", "i'm so charming, how could they not hate me?" and "they're jealous because i don't have to work or do anything strenuous to get where i am".

"Get a cause that will let you use your energy for something besides navel gazing and pleasure-chasing."

Why would he? He's stated over and over in the thread that this is working out well enough for him, he has no intentions of changing his ways. All he wanted to know was why all those gross gays kept wanting to suck his cock whenever he touched and flirted with them to gain the interest of "females".
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 8, 2011 at 3:29 PM · Report this
163
143

Fully agree, love the post. :)
Posted by Madhatterbenjamin on September 8, 2011 at 3:42 PM · Report this
164
161

Succinct, I like your post.

"DARE, go find something you believe in in this world. Get a cause that will let you use your energy for something besides navel gazing and pleasure-chasing. You'll feel better. And you'll hopefully do others some good as well." :):):)!

"I think he's only beginning to scratch the surface, but I think a lot of people don't even try. He should consider the criticism he has sought here, but not accepting some of it does not automatically mean he is in the wrong."

"...(at least he's aware he's doing it though, and has some remorse! How many people do it who aren't even conscious of it?)"
Posted by Madhatterbenjamin on September 8, 2011 at 4:03 PM · Report this
165
@161, well, to me DARE is the archetype of someone with no self-awareness at all. Unfortunately, in my experience, once a bore, always a bore.
Posted by cockyballsup on September 8, 2011 at 4:28 PM · Report this
166
Wow, I got to this late. I had NO IDEA that DARE would up the insufferable ante so much.

"I'm charming, sensitive, charismatic, alpha male but in a non-gendered kind of way, interesting, intellectual, empathetic, sensual and of course drop dead gorgeous...it's so not fair that people are too stupid and ugly to fully apreciate me"

Oh but he's totally fine with independent minded women, just as long as they defer to his "natural leadership". The douchebaggery is strong in this one.

I'm tempted to call fake. A cursory reading of the comments shows that someone this self-absorbed and assholish would have a heard time keeping women around for 5 minutes, let alone having the legions of friends (though he paints them as more like worshippers) that this fucker says he has. Also, his comment of "I feel so sad when I see a homeless amputee because it distracts me from the important business of fucking pretty girls" reeks of trolling.

On the other hand several people say they've had the misfortune of meeting such individuals, and regular trolls have much less florid writing styles. If he's a troll, he's a skillful one. In this one case, I would rather he be a troll than this horrific personality reflect an actual human being.
Posted by Lynx on September 8, 2011 at 4:32 PM · Report this
167
162

I want to clarify, I chose the words, Self attentive.

self,
1. The total, essential, or particular being of a person; the individual.
2. The essential qualities distinguishing one person from another; individuality.
3. One's consciousness of one's own being or identity; the ego.
4. One's own interests, welfare, or advantage: thinking of self alone.

attentive,adj.
1. Giving care or attention; watchful: attentive to detail.
2. Marked by or offering devoted and assiduous attention to the pleasure or comfort of others.
3. Expressing affectionate interest through close observation and gallant gestures.

I chose those words to say that he pays attention to himself. He watches and asseses what he does and how he is percieved by others for those actions. He also asks himself what he is doing and why.

I did not say,

Self-concious,
1. Aware of oneself as an individual or of one's own being, actions, or thoughts.
2. Socially ill at ease.
3. Excessively conscious of one's appearance or manner.
4. Showing the effects of self-consciousness; stilted.

As that has a very different implication and speaks of a different type of opinion. What I mean to say is this, I am not assesing his personal moral worth, or attitude towards himself. I am only pointing out that he pays attention to himself, and to others.

In my opinion it is no worse to have your life saved by someone who is proud of themselves for doing it and did it more for the attention than a personal interest in saving your life. Than to be saved by someone humble who says "aw shucks, it coulda been anyone."
Either is better than not being saved at all because someone could not get past their opinions of others and decide to be of service, for whatever reason.
More...
Posted by Madhatterbenjamin on September 8, 2011 at 4:36 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 168
"What I mean to say is this, I am not assesing his personal moral worth, or attitude towards himself. I am only pointing out that he pays attention to himself, and to others.

In my opinion it is no worse to have your life saved by someone who is proud of themselves for doing it and did it more for the attention than a personal interest in saving your life. Than to be saved by someone humble who says "aw shucks, it coulda been anyone."
Either is better than not being saved at all because someone could not get past their opinions of others and decide to be of service, for whatever reason."

Are you a sockpuppet for DARE?

What you just posted makes absolutely no sense and goes along perfectly with his self-aggrandizing/messiah complex. Let alone the continuing the streak of odd psychobabble.

He. Is. Not. Saving. Lives.

He is being homophobic, misogynistic/controlling, destroying relationships, and seems to be a total shit of an individual from all he posts.

Seeing as he's not out to change the world, the best we can hope for is him trying to minimize the trainwreck he is today.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 8, 2011 at 4:46 PM · Report this
169
when will Slapp be available for PALM? hehe no pun intended.
Posted by wednesdayaddams on September 8, 2011 at 5:06 PM · Report this
170
#168

"Seeing as he's not out to change the world, the best we can hope for is him trying to minimize the trainwreck he is today."

How do you know I am not trying to change the world? I regularly help people in need. I break up fights. I am polite. I have worked as a nanny and caregiver for the elderly. Personally I view myself as a caring and nurturing person.

Sure I have issues. Shit, my issues have issues. But when it comes down to it, I hate suffering. Even when I do not witness it, I can't get it out of my mind that the world is rife with suffering, sorry, anguish and tragedy.

We have it pretty kush in the U.S., but even here, consumerism has eaten away at us.

I digress.

Oh and for those thinking I have never had to work hard, I guarantee you I have worked more construction, furniture moving, landscaping, commercial fishing, and dug more ditches than most posting on here. I know what hard work is. And I have made sacrifices to be able to walk away from it after it starts to wear me down. Sure I've had a lot of down time to 'over think' shit and incessantly philosophize. But again, I am no stranger to hard work. I have woken up many mornings at the crack of dawn with creaking joints to go and labor for minimum wage.

Posted by outofwater on September 8, 2011 at 5:19 PM · Report this
171
Oh and I am in my 30's.
Posted by outofwater on September 8, 2011 at 5:29 PM · Report this
172
170 "But when it comes down to it, I hate suffering. Even when I do not witness it, I can't get it out of my mind that the world is rife with suffering, sorry, anguish and tragedy."

yeah, but no matter how many buddhism for dummies books you skim, when it comes down to actually interacting with people, you're only looking out for #1

"Sure I've had a lot of down time to 'over think' shit and incessantly philosophize. But again, I am no stranger to hard work. I have woken up many mornings at the crack of dawn with creaking joints to go and labor for minimum wage."

do you want a medal? you said you're well off enough that you don't neet to work, so don't play middle-class hardworker now, the vast majority of people aren't set with family and trust funds to the point where that's possible

"Oh and I am in my 30's."

jesus christ, you are far too old to be this dumb
Posted by how old are you going to be before you get a clue on September 8, 2011 at 5:40 PM · Report this
173
168

We are all a train wreck in some way or another. And I am noones sock puppet thank you. I hear a human being in his words and I can appreciate the struggle to actually find yourself. Some of it is complete shit and leaves you feeling or looking like hell. That is life.
What I wrote was perfectly comprehensible for someone with a mind to listen and be open. Which you clearly are not. Do you think talking down about people encourages them to improve? Or could it be possible that acknowledging someone for who they are trying or even claiming to be trying to be might be slightly more effective?
Posted by Madhatterbenjamin on September 8, 2011 at 6:17 PM · Report this
174
173

his initial post asked questions, but his followups since show that he doesn't want to change anything about his behavior

if anything, his elaborations made people even more disgusted with him.
Posted by welp on September 8, 2011 at 6:37 PM · Report this
175
Dare,

I stopping taking anything you've said seriously since your "gender is bullshit" [18].

I stick with you being a sissy fag, who in confusion wrote to Dan, but now has turned to jacking off by writing to this column.

Posted by Hunter78 on September 8, 2011 at 6:49 PM · Report this
176
@167

"I am only pointing out that he pays attention to himself, and to others."

Certainly not to others' perception of him. He is like the classical bore with no awareness of how others see him. In fact, he is completely blind to it. Here is another interesting definition:

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/): a mental disorder characterized primarily by a lack of empathy and remorse, shallow emotions, egocentricity, and deceptiveness.
Posted by cockyballsup on September 8, 2011 at 7:07 PM · Report this
177
undead ayn rand,

DARE isn't keeping score against you, but he has you keeping score against him. If he's the terrible person you say he is, how are you not choosing to be his thanksgiving dinner?
Posted by Mike Leung on September 8, 2011 at 8:03 PM · Report this
mydriasis 178
@130

It's important to communicate with people on their own level. Also important: calling 'em as you see 'em.

And only elderly people use expressions like "sissy queer". It's like if you had've refered to "Siam" or "phrenology".

You could take it as an insult, or you could take it as me generously suggesting a mitigating contribution to why you'd be such a bigot?
Posted by mydriasis on September 8, 2011 at 10:03 PM · Report this
179
177

what does that even mean?
Posted by what are you babbling about? on September 8, 2011 at 10:05 PM · Report this
180
@109: Did you look at ANEMD's original letter of the day? She got a ton of responses there and she also posted on that thread.

Because young women who want guys to share them with other women just gets to be such a tiresome subject in our culture, right? ;-)

Whereas DARE replied in this thread, which is why everyone focused on him.

I think Mr. Savage's decision to put DARE first -- and to rag on him in such an amusingly nasty manner -- helped to precipitate the avalanche of hatred shown for DARE here. But I also think DARE's use as a hate-object by the commenters here tells us much more about them than it does about him. (Of special note, IMHO at least, is DARE's decision to provoke homophobic men, and the abuse DARE has taken here for it. Who would have thought such behavior would receive such censure from DAN SAVAGE's audience, eh?)
Posted by tensor on September 8, 2011 at 11:07 PM · Report this
181 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
182
180 "Of special note, IMHO at least, is DARE's decision to provoke homophobic men, and the abuse DARE has taken here for it."

it's because he only provoked them for the purpose of proving his worth to his submissive heterosexual conquests

he has very little respect for gay men, and he's shown it through his descriptions of them
Posted by you should try reading before you get sanctimonious on September 8, 2011 at 11:25 PM · Report this
183
Dan and DARE, thanks for educating the masses about what a narcissist is. Go and read DARE/outofwater's words and see for yourself-narcissists think they're the greatest people in the world, and will continue to do so until their dying day-and those who don't see that are the ones with the problem. Meanwhile they'll leave behind wreckage-of betrayed friends and co-workers, failed relationships and marriages, and fucked up children.

"And I have had a lot of time to think in my life, a blessing. Never had to hold down a full time job."

"Oh and for those thinking I have never had to work hard, I guarantee you I have worked more construction, furniture moving, landscaping, commercial fishing, and dug more ditches than most posting on here. I know what hard work is." Classic con man. Hoping you missed one or the other. But you see he believes it himself; that's how he gets others to believe it.

"I have slept with married women because I can, but also because these women were not happy at home. I regret doing it, but I have learned a lot about relationships. Women open up to me. I guess what I have learned makes me sad, because I have concluded that for the most part people are miserable in the world. Fear and desperation trump happiness. We live under strict hierarchies, power structures, and domination. Not a fertile foundation for self actualized, confident and complete human beings methinks."

Notice how he takes back every statement about himself that he makes with a following "but" statement. Throw in the cheapest pop-psychobabble words and let the world know how "sensitive" you are. Plenty of people fall for that.

"How do you know I am not trying to change the world? I regularly help people in need. I break up fights. I am polite. I have worked as a nanny and caregiver for the elderly. Personally I view myself as a caring and nurturing person. " Give him enough rope...

Gay or straight? I think neither. He's madly in love/lusts for the image in the mirror.

More...
Posted by xxxSTEVExxx on September 9, 2011 at 3:25 AM · Report this
184
@180: Agree completely. And I'm totally in favor of random flirting, being playful, fucking with social norms to consciously make people uncomfortable at times, and making fun of homophobes. I really do not understand where all the hate is coming from.

As far as ANEMD, a lot of us said everything we wanted to say back on that thread, and ANEMD's responses helped defuse any conflict, whereas DARE's seem to do the opposite for reasons I don't really understand. But as you say, it tells us more about DARE's attackers.
Posted by BlackRose on September 9, 2011 at 3:41 AM · Report this
185
I think 181 may have just said the most meaningful thing in this entire conversation.
Posted by cattheotherwhitemeat on September 9, 2011 at 5:57 AM · Report this
mydriasis 186
@Blackrose

You don't understand where the hate is coming from?

Hm.

Look, this is how I see it... people all have different talents in life. We're good at some things, bad at others. Some of us (Dan included, it would seem) are good at reading people. Seeing beneath what they say and cut through to who they are. Personally, I consider myself to be blessed in this realm. Some people are good at getting people to like them. Maybe they're charismatic, or maybe they're simply easygoing and friendly. This is what I call the difference between being "good with people" and "good at people".

Good at people meaning good at understanding how they tick. (I often say I'm "good at people, but not good with them")

I read DARE/fish's post and I saw an incredibly self-absorbed, trustafarian with an overinflated ego. And all of his comments (you did read them, right?) are about how everyone loves him - but the people who don't love him are just jealous of his physical beauty. Which is a handy one-two punch of elevating himself as being above superficiality (by implying he isn't concerned with physical beauty) and pointing out his superficial attractiveness.

P.S. DARE, re: your physical beauty? We haven't seen a picture so we have no way of knowing if that's even true. Dude could be hideous.

He goes on about how suffering makes him upset. Does that not seem insane to anyone but me? If someone needs to expressly point out that they have empathy, doesn't that seem suspicious to anyone but me? I mean, if I wrote a post saying "I close my eyes. That's another interesting thing about me... During the day I close them very quickly so it doesn't disturb my vision, and then at night time I lie in bed for a long time with my eyes closed the whole time!"

Dude. We all blink and sleep. The fact that you went in detail to describe something that is basic humanity gives a little wee bit of weight to all these "psychopath" suggestions that I earlier thought were silly.

Back to Blackrose though - I've read many of your posts and you don't seem narcissistic at all. You actually seem like quite a considerate person and though I can imagine you riling up people you perceive as "too conventional" (me, perhaps? :P) I think you do it out of a genuine hope that it will widen their perspective of shake them out of their bigotry as the case may be. Sure, there's probably an angry/mean part too (you should have seen how I reacted to some obnoxious suburban guy who came into my city and called my friend a "faggot") but that's not the entirety of your motivation.

Or at least that's not the impression I get from you. So though you may superficially share certain qualities with DARE there's a reason these people attack him and not you - it's not his actions they're attacking, it's his motivation.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... just because you don't see it yourself doesn't mean it's not there? Just because you can't hear that noise that makes your dog go nuts doesn't mean there wasn't a sound at all.

Erm... tl;dr.
More...
Posted by mydriasis on September 9, 2011 at 6:36 AM · Report this
187
184 Agreed with 186 that you don't *sound* like a narcissist or a sociopath, so why are you so clueless?

"making fun of homophobes. I really do not understand where all the hate is coming from."

because he is, at the same time a homophobe. sure he'll flirt with a guy, but only if it improves his chances of finding a heterosexual sex partner

does he respect gays? fuck no. does he like it when they flirt back? fuck no. his disgusting opinions on the poor boys who think he's sincerely flirting with them is clearly stated

i don't understand what's so curious about the response to DARE, but you should really read things more before responding

if even DAN SAVAGE HIMSELF thinks the guy is being a hurtful dick, maybe it's worth trying to understand?
Posted by what the hell, blackrose? on September 9, 2011 at 7:40 AM · Report this
188
For some weird reason,

I was reminded by @186's post about something that happened at a party a few years back. I was talking with a guy about his new business, and because he was the first person I'd met who had gone strictly online, the conversation was really fascinating. I had seen some guy walking past looking at us a number of times, and then he walked up to us later on and announced that "you guys must be gay". To my acquaintances credit, he grabbed me into a hug and proclaimed "well of course we are". Of course I was mutly standing there on the verge of falling on the floor laughing, so I wasn't much help (two 40 something dad types, me dressed in my usual nerdo-shlub outfit, surrounded by pastel dressed yacht club types at the party. Whispering excitedly in each others ears, definitely gay,
right?). All I could think of was the guy had never left high school, and that he really was just jealous he couldn't take part in our fun.

And that's what strikes me about DARE, he is the smarmy guy at the party who "knows" everyone is secretly dying to be able to take part in his circle of conversation. And, usually, he's right.

Peace.
Posted by Married in MA on September 9, 2011 at 8:06 AM · Report this
189
@179 I was wondering the same thing.
Posted by KateRose on September 9, 2011 at 8:12 AM · Report this
190
@DARE... Is that you? If so, how bout sending that overdue child support check? We need it!
...your ex wife (the tomboy with armpit hair)
Posted by mishpolt on September 9, 2011 at 8:21 AM · Report this
191
I have had much leisure time, but I have also worked very hard. Like I said, I make sacrifices to be able to LEAVE a job after I get sick of it.

I work cyclically. I work hard for months then quit and live in my car, or in the past on the streets as well.

Interesting how so many people pass judgement on me and call me a 'narcissist' (as if there is some categorical, universal definition. Remember, the only thing physicists can agree on is that nothing is capable of faster than light travel. Otherwise, truth pours forth as a creation of our minds).

Interesting because these people never talk about themselves. They perhaps spend all their time judging other people but never think about themselves. Maybe this is because they hate themselves, and want to be someone else.

I see talking about oneself as very honest. We are all selfishly motivated. Some people hide it.

Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 9:06 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 192
@190: Hah!

Channeling DARE-

"Pay back child support? Sartre once said 'Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives', I relate to that.

You know who was also a privileged guy who knew very little outside his parents' house but gave up his wife and child in the search to understand 'suffering'? Buddha. Everyone was jealous of Buddha and was trying to get to know him better, and they now stare at graven images of him in adoration, yet he must have suffered the most of all humankind..."
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 9:21 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 193
@191: "Interesting how so many people pass judgement on me and call me a 'narcissist' (as if there is some categorical, universal definition."

Someone who is only concerned with his own suffering and is blind to the suffering of others is a fair definition to be applied.

"Remember, the only thing physicists can agree on is that nothing is capable of faster than light travel. Otherwise, truth pours forth as a creation of our minds)."

Do you ever expect this rubbish to be convincing? A mealymouthed sort of "what can we ever KNOW, mannnn?". Drop the stoner metaphysics, it's tiring. If you believe in absolute moral relativism, why are you bothering to write into a self-help forum about how messed up and reptile-brained you are?

"They perhaps spend all their time judging other people but never think about themselves. Maybe this is because they hate themselves, and want to be someone else."

I know when I fuck up and deal with it on my own terms. I also care when I make someone hurt, whereas you dwell on the "nature of suffering" but can't apply it to the people who surround your circle of high-school drama. I seriously thought you were right out of school with this "i'm a hippie, why is everybody so mad all the time?" manchildery. And no, not everyone wants to be an "independently wealthy" layabout who moves from one sexual conquest to the other but has no real friends (Everyone is a jealous enemy, right?) or drive in life.

You're in your thirties, couchsurf all you want but at least stop being a shitstorm of drama whenever you decide to settle down.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 9:33 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 194
@191: "Like I said, I make sacrifices to be able to LEAVE a job after I get sick of it.

I work cyclically. I work hard for months then quit and live in my car, or in the past on the streets as well."

Yeah, but that's a luxury, don't pretend that your slumming it is any hardship. You've always got somewhere to go to and someone to finance your lifetime goal of "finding yourself".
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 9:34 AM · Report this
195
@191, not talking about yourself ≠ lack of self scrutiny. It often just reflects the good judgment. People who are truly interesting are those who can talk about things other than themselves. We can't judge someone's soul by what they don't say, because we don't know all the things inside their head (but oh, boy, can we ever judge them by what they do say).
Posted by anyes on September 9, 2011 at 9:48 AM · Report this
196
"Just because you can't hear that noise that makes your dog go nuts doesn't mean there wasn't a sound at all."

Sometimes the dog goes nuts because dogs are pack animals, and "going nuts" is how it lets the mailman walking away know it owns his ass.
Posted by Mike Leung on September 9, 2011 at 9:49 AM · Report this
197
#194

"Yeah, but that's a luxury, don't pretend that your slumming it is any hardship. You've always got somewhere to go to and someone to finance your lifetime goal of "finding yourself."

You don't know me. You don't know what I have experienced. The pain I have experienced. I have blessings, but I have experienced extreme pain and hardship. Yes I have had leisure, but I have also labored very hard. My life has not been easy and I have had to fight for much of what I have accomplished.
Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 10:06 AM · Report this
198
#193

"Someone who is only concerned with his own suffering and is blind to the suffering of others is a fair definition to be applied."

Oh yes that is ALL I am concerned with.

I appreciate your deduction kind sir. So, so wise of you. You understand more about me than I do.

"Drop the stoner metaphysics, it's tiring. If you believe in absolute moral relativism, why are you bothering to write into a self-help forum about how messed up and reptile-brained you are? "

You don't get laid very often, do you? I think it's pretty easy to tell which posters lack self esteem here.

Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 10:09 AM · Report this
199
#195

"We can't judge someone's soul by what they don't say, because we don't know all the things inside their head (but oh, boy, can we ever judge them by what they do say)."

Actually I believe we can tell a lot about people, and even their 'souls' (whatever that 'is'), by how they move, how they carry themselves. Most communication tends to portray physically, rather than verbally.
Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 10:11 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 200
@197: The ability to feel pain and the ponderance of the nature of emotional "pain" does not equate to the desire to have any concern for others.

Of course I don't know you personally, but from your words posted here, you come off as as an entitled prick, and most people seem to agree.

Perhaps you should be more concerned about how you come off to others?

You know, the letter you sent? You do remember that, right? The one you sent and never addressed a single aspect of Dan's reply regarding?

You may very well be a tiny, flaccid phallus in a vat and everyone was created to be your plaything, but apparently not all of these false constructs think you're interesting or exciting. Plenty of them think you're a insufferable pseudointellectual.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 10:16 AM · Report this
201
You guys, you are all wrong in your diagnoses. DARE/outofwater is neither a sociopath, nor a narcissist, nor gay, nor bi.

He's a theater major.

Cased closed.
Posted by SI on September 9, 2011 at 10:37 AM · Report this
202
186 has some great insight regarding "good at people" vs. "good with people". DARE is obviously the latter (at least until other people wake up and smell the coffee). I consider myself the former.

As one of those "good at" but not "good with" folks, DARE is the kind of person that I only meet when some naive friend of mine invites one into my home. I immediately peg them by their plaintive instant "friendships" with me, their abrupt invites to Burning Man or Vegas, and worse, their constant look at meeeee posturing.

So what do I do? I force a smile, politely nod my head as they speak, chuckle at their attempts at humor, act as a proper host, and mentally distance myself from getting ever, ever close to them. I'm sure they interpret my patience and reservation as genuine interest and fascination... not because it is, but because they'd never consider otherwise. Thinking is not their strong suit, despite their psuedo-intellectual blathering.

Case in point, 186 again. mydriasis talks about themsevles, and how they see the world. It's not particularly flattering to describe yourself as bad with people. But it's honest. It takes real confidence.

Yet not more than 5 posts later, here's DARE:

"Interesting because these people never talk about themselves. They perhaps spend all their time judging other people but never think about themselves. Maybe this is because they hate themselves, and want to be someone else."

DARE, you're a troll or an idiot. Either way you're a douche. I doubt that knowing people who put up with your shit might not actually think you're so very amazing (but are too polite or disengaged to make an effort to tell you) will change your opinions at all. You don't want to change, you want the attention it's getting you.

Happy to oblige.
More...
Posted by Pinkerton on September 9, 2011 at 10:55 AM · Report this
203
196

your analogy is weird and inapplicable to this situation. we're not trying to exert dominance over DARE, we see his behaviors and mindset as creepy

201

*bows to SI*

i can say no more
Posted by brills on September 9, 2011 at 10:56 AM · Report this
204
@ 201 : You forgot that he's also a major asshole. This thread is laughably great. Give it about two years and he'll be in a nuthouse somewhere being diagnosed for schizo-affective disorder. He'll get his one day, and he'll only have himself to blame if he's ever able to wake TF up and begin to take stock about how fucked up he really is. Screaming queen dickwad.
Posted by DARE's Queer. He's Here. Get Used To It. on September 9, 2011 at 10:58 AM · Report this
205
"I immediately peg them by their plaintive instant "friendships" with me, their abrupt invites to Burning Man or Vegas, and worse, their constant look at meeeee posturing."

nice, reminds me of this other "hippie" staple

en.wikipedia . org/wiki/Love_bombing
Posted by instafriends, "loving" everyone, desperate for approval on September 9, 2011 at 11:00 AM · Report this
206
204

eh, I don't quite know. it's plausible that he's closeted, but sometimes an asshole, bullying jockish guy with "sensitive" affectations is just an asshole bullying jock who wears a hippie suit, not a sports jersey

i mean, plenty of the neocons pretended to be hippies in the 60s-70s, but their rotten souls were all about the "free love" and not the goodwill of mankind

hell, plenty of republicans of college age pretended to like Obama to get liberal women in bed and aped what they thought Dems believed as far as was necessary. College Republicans just aren't sexy (unless you're a log cabiner, I guess)

it's like this layabout acting like what he believes a Sensitive New Age Guy is* while continuing to act like a regressive misogynist/homophobe.

*not that anyone should ACUALLY be a SNAG, mind you, the sincere ones are dull as hell.
Posted by he'd be a jerk, even out of the closet on September 9, 2011 at 11:11 AM · Report this
207
@138, I know a DARE, and he is all too real. @119 and @131: very perceptive. And yes, he flirts with dogs. He interacts with gay guys and dogs similarly, actually. Don't know exactly what that means - except that he needs to always have physical contact with some being. It's like he's permanently on X, but don't think he takes it all that often. I dunno, tho. Maybe. He's always surrounded by a number of admirers, but the kind-hearted ones always move on once they've been impacted by the chaos he co-creates with the others in his main circle. His affection, which goes way above and beyond flirting and is often pure sexual come-on - to everyone - would get men less physically attractive, smart, and charming a sexual harassment charge in a minute.

The DARE I know would probably write here because he wasn't ready for therapy when he tried it, and it didn't work. But he does have a bit of insight. Let's hope he's ready to hear the feedback we're all giving him and try again because he could use the gifts he was given for more good in the world instead of tipping the balance on the side of the chaos by his actions.

The DARE I know was also not ever really sober from what I could tell back when I was still around. And he must have the most addictive personality in the world since it seems he couldn't get enough of alcohol, weed, sex, touching, nicotine, sun, adventure, attention, also used other chemical drugs from time to time. His loviness covers the jealousy and rage (narcissistic?) he frequently feels, and yeah, truthfully, some misogynistic stuff comes out of his mouth sometimes. Soooo....the DARE I know (don't know if this applies to you, DARE, but ask yourself) - He's GOTTTA get some clean time from all of his fixes before he can truly feel who he is gender or sexual-identity wise, what his pain is about, or what he needs.

More...
Posted by idea struck on September 9, 2011 at 11:20 AM · Report this
208
@201 FTW!!!

@199 DARE, in this case I refer to my buddy Mr. Clemmons:

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".

Peace.
Posted by Married in MA on September 9, 2011 at 11:36 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 209
@207: "His loviness covers the jealousy and rage (narcissistic?) he frequently feels, and yeah, truthfully, some misogynistic stuff comes out of his mouth sometimes"

I find that hilarious about DARE. He's all about LURVVVEEEE and must touch everyone and be adored, knowing no boundaries when it comes to pursuing already-committed partners (similarly when *he's* in a relationship, I'm sure) but he wants his "female" submissive and locked down.

That's not hippie free-love behavior. It's those traditionalist/regressives that destroyed the idea of free-love, because they understood it as "free" as in all they could take, but they do not grant their partners actual "freedom".
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 11:38 AM · Report this
210
I find 'you are an idiot' or 'you are schizophrenic' comments very telling. People always seem to want to reduce the world into labels. It's a way of exerting control, perhaps, over a world they fear.

Say what you want about me, but I NEVER label people. I find that to be a reductive, simplistic and aggressive act.

The world runs rife with contradiction and conflict. I am happy to admit I am a conflicted individual. I manipulate people, yes. I catalyze chaos, yes. But many people who know me well, thank 'god', see that at my heart I really do love life and want everyone in the world to be at peace.

Now, continue the attacks on me. I think nothing I could say now would defend me from people who enjoy judging others rather than trying to relate to my frustrations and confusions in some way. Talk about me, go ahead. Maybe you should focus on yourselves more.
Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 12:06 PM · Report this
211
It's not me! It's them!
It's not me! It's them!
Posted by Pinkerton on September 9, 2011 at 12:18 PM · Report this
212
Did anyone else read @210 and imagine it being spoken in a nasal British upper class accent?

Peace.
Posted by Married in MA on September 9, 2011 at 12:20 PM · Report this
213
@209

"knowing no boundaries when it comes to pursuing already-committed partners (similarly when *he's* in a relationship, I'm sure) but he wants his "female" submissive and locked down."

"they understood it as "free" as in all they could take, but they do not grant their partners actual "freedom".

Ah, you've met him then! From what I've seen, all I can say is "yep". I attended parties where only he or his ex was there. He was totally off his rocker jealous about what he thought she was doing...which was totally just friendly/sisterly interaction with her guy friends and co-workers (she's more flirty in her on-line personas but rather shy in person), while meanwhile he was getting/giving what most people in the world would consider sensual attention (dry humping on dance floor, long deep massages) from half a dozen people. Sometimes it appears he's "giving affection" to others as a form of punishment for the "beloved" who dares having even a polite conversation with another man.
Posted by idea struck on September 9, 2011 at 12:25 PM · Report this
214
D.A.R.E., I feel sorry for you. You are never at fault, are you? Oh, no. Never! Beyond reproach, aren't you?

Well, since you haven't ever really had to work for your livelihood (nice set of contradictory details about all of that, btw), you obviously have had time to sit around and polish up (and/or, cut and paste) your most profound intellectualism.

You say so much, yet you never say anything that could qualify as the least bit realistic.

You're probably one of those people living off of an inheritence that someone else other than you accrued, but you now sponge off of.

You have very, very little actual insight into the condition of other people. This is most unappealing. Your self-absorption is also hilarious. Just wait about ten years when you start losing your looks and your network of enablers, one by one, begin to bag out on you. What to do now? Who now to bamboozle?

If you're so damn smart, D.A.R.E., then why the need to consult Dan Savage for advice?

Because you're more messed up than even You can even begin to take in. All of that time spent trying to deflect from the real issue at hand: your inability to accept yourself for who you really are. I wouldn't quite put all of the blame for that on you, though. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I can only imagine how well you were raised to make you become so misguided.

I guess that I feel for you, because, unlike you, I know enough to subscribe to the inevitable pull of honesty. You are devoid of that.

At the end of the day, the only one who is impressed by your insanity is your own self. It's both incredibly sad and yet hysterical to see someone claiming to be so bright, yet actually, in the light of day, your dull and sad like a funeral dirge.

God help anyone married and/or dating you. If you ever have kids, let them be raised away from you with their mother. You are toxic.

Actually, I believe you do know how fucked-up you are. You just don't actually have the internal fortitude and bravery to be honest.

They say that treating a narcissist is almost next to impossible.

By reading your attempts to justify being (basically) dishonest and disrespectful to anyone and everyone else, your undoing will come and it will all be on you.

Enjoy the attention while anyone still cares, D.A.R.E..

I never used to think someone could be so verbose, yet actually, so fucking boring.

I stand corrected with the likes of you.

Enjoy your ongoing infatuation with your own inner vortex of insanity.
More...
Posted by Isn't It A Pity on September 9, 2011 at 12:44 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 215
@210: "Say what you want about me, but I NEVER label people. I find that to be a reductive, simplistic and aggressive act."

You'd have to care about people beyond how they adore you, or at least understand how people operate.

"I manipulate people, yes. I catalyze chaos, yes."

Then why did you play the naif with your original letter, other than to appear on Savage Love?

You're completely comfortable/shameless about your exploitation of people because you've got a stable of codependent/lonely people to suck dry of attention.

Either it's a problem you sincerely want to address, or you've been masturbating with a keyboard and a mirror this whole time.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 12:51 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 216
@214: In a few years, when the inheritance money runs out, he'll be "that guy", the 40 year old with rapidly fading looks at the drum circle that nobody wants to touch, let alone be touched by.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 12:54 PM · Report this
217
@216 FTW!
Posted by xxxSTEVExxx on September 9, 2011 at 1:05 PM · Report this
scary tyler moore 218
hey,pretty boy! i'm waitin' for an answer. stop jerkin' yer johnson electronically for a minute and arr ess vee pee.
Posted by scary tyler moore http://pushymcshove.blogspot.com/ on September 9, 2011 at 1:06 PM · Report this
219
@ 206 Sincerity is never dull. Sappy, pseudo-hippies pretending to be sincere? Yeah: That is dull.

Some people try too hard. For whatever reasons. I always found just having the guts to be honest with yourself and other people has its own rewards in being actually interesting, or compelling.

Ego, a need to dominate, a need of attention, me! me! me! me! look at me! look at me!

Sincerity itself is rarely ever uninteresting. It's the poseurs who want you to believe that they care that are the biggest bores of all.

Sooner or later, people sniff out the truth.

Why not just cut to the chase and reveal the source of that sour stench and cop to it?

Honesty and carrying yourself with that goes further than even a seasoned liar would ever live long enough to realize.

I wouldn't ever want to be in D.A.R.E.'s shoes. Too much drama, unrest and a fragile hold on mental stability.

For some people, humility is the enemy; the kryptonite to their over-hyped superiority claims.

Sincerity is cool. Being a delusional douche is not.
Posted by D.A.R.E.'s one personality he continues to suppress on September 9, 2011 at 1:10 PM · Report this
220
"I find 'you are an idiot' or 'you are schizophrenic' comments very telling. People always seem to want to reduce the world into labels. It's a way of exerting control, perhaps, over a world they fear."

They ARE Telling, for they are accurate!

Re-read your own shit, outofwater. For someone who has the gloss of intelligence and bearing, you sure are a dumb fuck.

The rest of it applies to you, too: the controlling nature, the fear of losing it..

You've long since lost it, D.A.R.E..

Therapy is all that you have left to even begin to salvage the disaster that is you.

Posted by What time does the theater production begin? on September 9, 2011 at 1:14 PM · Report this
221
"Either it's a problem you sincerely want to address, or you've been masturbating with a keyboard and a mirror this whole time. "

Either, or. Only two choices. Thus is commanded by the supreme ultimate. Bow now.
Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 1:21 PM · Report this
222
219

"Sincerity is never dull. Sappy, pseudo-hippies pretending to be sincere? Yeah: That is dull.

Some people try too hard."

that's somewhat what I mean, people who are nice and sincere don't have to label themselves in lieu of possessing a personality and cling onto subgenres that define them well into their thirties

220

it's funny how he near-audbly pouts when people see him for a lizard in human skin, reminds me of They Live
Posted by "i'm a hippie!" no, you're a mid-thirties manchild on September 9, 2011 at 1:21 PM · Report this
223
"In a few years, when the inheritance money runs out, he'll be "that guy", the 40 year old with rapidly fading looks at the drum circle that nobody wants to touch, let alone be touched by. "

The psychic powers are strong in this one.
Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 1:23 PM · Report this
224
at least we're not concerned about catching syphilis from an argument on the internet
Posted by at least wash your hands first, gross on September 9, 2011 at 1:25 PM · Report this
225
"people who are nice and sincere don't have to label themselves in lieu of possessing a personality and cling onto subgenres that define them well into their thirties"

written by: "i'm a hippie!" no, you're a mid-thirties manchild"

Okay so your label of me is okay to use, but my label of myself isn't.

Maybe labels are the source of confusion and miscommunication,

I suggest E-Prime, or David Bohm's 'Rheomode'. Languages based on verbs, the former entirely sans copula.
Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 1:28 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 226
@225: Again with the pseudointellectual garbage in lieu of actual discussion.

Humans group and label for the purposes of abstraction, not as an absolutist understanding of the world.

Is there such thing as an "objective" manchild? Of course not.

Are you acting embarrassingly childish for someone in their thirties? Of course!

Do you lack the ability to process shame for your behaviors the way others might? Yes!

Are you going to change your behavior after you received critical advice from Dan? Not at all, from your replies.

Instead of rattling off books you haven't read that aren't analogous to any points in the discussion, try actually reading what people post.

I know it's hard to pay attention to anything outside your bubble, perhaps at some point your crushing sense of loneliness and self-loathing won't be temporarily relieved by ego-stroking, you'll want to keep someone around.

You know, keep them from running for the hills when they see who you actually are versus the Sensitive New Age Guy front.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 1:38 PM · Report this
Sandiai 227
I've really enjoyed undead ayn rand's articulate insights. The encounters I've had with remorseless individuals who completely lack insight (and insight's child: empathy), have left me so traumatized that I have a keen eye and ear for detecting such individuals. Several different diseases can produce the characteristics that we see here: narcissistic personality disorder, borderline pd (probably not so much the case here, although borderlines really like to stir up shit), the prodromal phase of schizophrenia (which can last for years), and the manic phase of bipolar disorder and schizoaffective disorder. Also, of course, autism, but autistic people don't LOOK for trouble or even attention.

I'm sorry DARE, it's not all about how we're jealous or just don't get you, some of it is about how you present yourself. Some cognitive behavioral therapy might be a good first step, since it's not terribly threatening, and personally I can see your thinking process is pretty muddled. Won't it be a relief to not have to spend so much mental energy on propping up your ego? A therapist could help you get some relief like that.
Posted by Sandiai on September 9, 2011 at 3:07 PM · Report this
228
I am really enjoying this. It is becoming hilarious.

Two points.
Let's go back to DARE's original request for Dan to explain, "I feel very frustrated, Dan, because I don’t feel confused at all, but I feel like I confuse people.”

May I point out that a person need not feel confused in order to confuse others. I think DARE's complaint has been answered sufficiently. DARE admits he causes chaos; he already knows he does confuse people. Dan and many commentators have told DARE that if this bothers him, he should take cues from others and change his behavior. Hear that, DARE?

Second point.
DARE strikes me as a frustrated artist/intellectual (thus, the irregular job history). Bringing in philosophical points at every opportunity is, sorry to say, adolescent. Mature people don't have time to follow the twists and turns of other people's philosophical thoughts when these change so rapidly. Not to say we aren't interested in these issues, just that adults' style is different. DARE, if you really care about these issues (and not just about showing people how smart/intellectual you are), channel these observations into culturally standardized art forms (from performance poetry and epigrams to operas and philosophical treatises). Then maybe you'll stop wasting them on people who aren't interested, and you'll stop feeling hurt when you don't get the response you want. Or maybe you're not doing that, because you doubt your own ability, and then you're complaining that people don't appreciate you. Face your own abilities or lack thereof, DARE.
Posted by Aquamarine on September 9, 2011 at 3:08 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 229
@227: To be honest, most of this has been a one-sided rant on my part. I'd feel more I was offering more insight if DARE had actually offered any substance other than his "y'all quit hatin" spiel in various forms with literary/philosophical/religious namechecks-of-grandeur attached. Then again, I don't really get into arguments with any other Savage Love letter writers either, because they read what Dan has to say.

"Several different diseases can produce the characteristics that we see here: narcissistic personality disorder, borderline pd (probably not so much the case here, although borderlines really like to stir up shit), the prodromal phase of schizophrenia (which can last for years), and the manic phase of bipolar disorder and schizoaffective disorder."

Right! I dated a BPD for several years, and I certainly wouldn't count it out in this case, they're very good at creating a fantasy world around them as the LW has. In my case, they wrote a "play" and a "novel" about our love life and the other people involved, it was very reminiscent of DARE's garbage.

That particular BPD was definitely attractive, and wrote Mary-Sue-ish stories about how everyone wanted them, and how they were just torn up with emotion over everything, but all the other characters were shallow, depthless. Every character existed to serve and adore the Mary Sue. Thankfully, that person is now medicated and went through YEARRRRSSSS of CBT, but I still refuse to ever be around them.

Perhaps DARE can get over the tortured warrior-poet stage at some point, but I suppose if he doesn't care, why the fuck should anyone else?

I'm just glad that I don't have any of them in my life these days.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 3:36 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 230
"Bringing in philosophical points at every opportunity is, sorry to say, adolescent. Mature people don't have time to follow the twists and turns of other people's philosophical thoughts when these change so rapidly. Not to say we aren't interested in these issues, just that adults' style is different"

I don't mind being prodded to check out something interesting and directly related to any concepts of a conversation, but don't be a namedropper, don't toss in tangentially related concepts, and don't expect that people will do anything but roll their eyes when you try to "win" an argument by claiming that "because of quantum relativism and parallel universes, anything is possible."
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 3:46 PM · Report this
231
Thank you, UAR, and I enjoy your thoughtful posts, but given your history, why oh why are you posting under the moniker of an arguably sociopathic and definitely borderline personality disordered creepy person? ;)
Posted by Aquamarine on September 9, 2011 at 3:52 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 232
Dark sense of humor, I suppose. I had just finished watching the Passion of Ayn Rand (good drama!) and i'm a sucker for silly screen names.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 3:59 PM · Report this
233
For fucking sakes, all of you. Why can't DARE just be himself? So he wrote a letter to Dan about himself and Dan published it. THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE NATION WIDE DO THIS EVERY WEEK. He likes to ponder the way his brain works and the nature of life/gender/flirtation. He feels attracted to committed women and/or homophobic men who are THINKING BEINGS who have every right to turn him down if they want to. So what? What crawled up all of your asses and died this week? All of you who are attempting to diagnose narcissistic personality disorder or even narcissistic traits (let alone schizophrenia or sociopathy or serial killing, what the fuck!) from this letter and these responses are so fucking full of it. Anyone among you who is even trained in psychological diagnosis, speak up... oh wait, if you were, you'd know better. Nothing against EricaP (I like the way she thinks about things) but she goes on and on about her own life on this board almost every week and hardly anyone but Hunter78 and the Professor, who everyone knows are trolls, ever get in her face. What's the fucking difference? There isn't one. Savage Love would be so much better without all of this smug pomposity. You all are not gods. You're just Seattleites. Get over yourselves and stop contributing to the kind of bullying that pushes sensitive people like DARE to suicide. The point of life is not to make sure to follow some pre-destined bullshit social contract and make sure everyone else is comfortable. This site is supposed to be a place where all sexual preferences and gender identifications can unite, not just the "in" ones. This is the first week I couldn't even finish the whole thread (which I normally look forward to) because I am so disgusted to see what humanity has become, personified in these hateful diatribes.

Mindwinds
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Posted by zell_zyte on September 9, 2011 at 4:02 PM · Report this
234
@222 "a lizard in human skin, reminds me of They Live"

LOL

@DARE/outofwater - having fun?
Posted by EricaP on September 9, 2011 at 4:07 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 235
@233: It's amateur time, really. We see unhealthy patterns in this particular LW.

"What's the fucking difference?"

She's not a flaming and unsympathetic wreck? Even if she shares her personal life, it's related to the topic at hand.

"Get over yourselves and stop contributing to the kind of bullying that pushes sensitive people like DARE to suicide."

He IS a nasty, snide bully who feels other people are his inferiors. Other LWs don't get this treatment, because they're not (for the most part) attention-seeking manchildren and womanchildes.

"This site is supposed to be a place where all sexual preferences and gender identifications can unite, not just the "in" ones."

Cruel assholes may always be in season, but that doesn't mean we have to pander to them.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 9, 2011 at 4:15 PM · Report this
236
It's funny how people complain that Seattle is passive-aggressive, but flip their shit whenever anyone says that they don't like someone else directly and exains why.
Posted by Passive-aggressives are everywhere on September 9, 2011 at 4:31 PM · Report this
237
@233
We're not okay with people like DARE just being themselves because their actions are hurting people to the extent of feeding addictions and dependencies, triggering/exacerbating mental health problems, causing trouble in existing relationships, and preventing potentially healthy relationships. And... they can't seem to see it...they don't know why others are so hurt...they are thoroughly confused (or so they say) as to why people walk away from them...

...so we're here to explain why

I've known affectionate and/or extroverted bisexual/bi-curious people - single, and in committed relationships - who don't hurt others like this. I know people who like to have a lot of casual sex, who are honest with their partners about what they're looking for, and they don't hurt people like this. I know people who confidently queer gender and don't hurt people like this.

Posted by idea struck on September 9, 2011 at 4:42 PM · Report this
238
@235: "Even if she shares her personal life, it's related to the topic at hand."

Dan made DARE's story the topic at hand. You're just giving anything from your mouth a pass.

Science gives circumstances for disproof. Even religions -- with their commandments against idolatry and circular koans -- refer to their own deadness. It's right there in your own comments: you refuse to consider you're wrong. Dude, you're out of control. That makes you the addict, not anyone else.
Posted by Mike Leung on September 9, 2011 at 7:17 PM · Report this
239
238

Mike, if you're going to try to argue with anyone and defend DARE, make some fucking sense. Nobody can respond to you because you're ungrounded.
Posted by Jesus Christ, lay off the psychedelics on September 9, 2011 at 7:49 PM · Report this
240
@undead ayn rand: If you don't think some of the things you've said lump you right in with the "cruel assholes" you supposedly hate, you are way more out of touch than I thought. Most folks here bizarrely think it's fine to rip to shreds any person they decide through their own twisted logic is not okay in some way. Hopefully your own turn to be destroyed doesn't come any time soon, eh? Hopefully karma's not a bitch?

I'm not talking about disagreeing with someone, as you seem to be implying... I'm talking about accusing someone you've never even met and know hardly anything about, based on an anonymous, edited letter to a sex advice columnist, of criminal afflictions such as sociopathy and murderousness. I'm talking about throwing around personality disorders (serious illnesses that are not jokes and not pseudo-intellectual cannon fodder, as they cause the world a great deal of pain) like they are candy, like you are some kind of expert. Are you? If so, I'll stand down. I doubt you know anything more about psychology than what you need to know to name drop and look cool to all your friends.

By the way, who appointed you judge of what is "flaming" and "unsympathetic"? Would you care to define these subjective bounds? Or does it just depend on how vicious and detached from your fellow humans you're feeling today? And here you are turning around and saying you're doing this because DARE is "hurting people." First of all, anyone who has been "hurt" by DARE can go ahead and step up now. This letter was about himself, his thoughts. We all have a right to our thoughts and our viewpoint on things. Stating this fact does not make me an amateur. I doubt you have read every word Dan Savage has written, whereas I have made a point to do so, because I actually want to learn how to treat people better in relationships, not worse. I doubt you even read all his columns, as I can't even remember seeing you comment here before this... What is your definition of amateur? Someone who stands up for the flavor of the week who's being cruelly lambasted? Someone who doesn't kiss your smug ass?

And if Seattleites aren't passive-aggressive as a general rule, why did a previous commenter put those words in my mouth, when I never typed them? Methinks the lady doth protest too much. If any of you have an actual logical defense for your behavior here aside from detachment and selfish amusement, I invite you to put me in my place. Until then, fuck off.
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Posted by zell_zyte on September 9, 2011 at 7:58 PM · Report this
241
Hell, I'm having a hard time with reconciling "everything I want in a partner" with "lazy and rude." What kind of fool wants a rude, lazy, stupid twit for a partner?
Posted by Erica W on September 9, 2011 at 8:07 PM · Report this
242
UAR@235: "Even if she shares her personal life, it's related to the topic at hand."

Me@238: "Dan made DARE's story the topic at hand. You're just giving anything from your mouth a pass."

anonymous poster@239: "Mike, if you're going to try to argue with anyone and defend DARE, make some fucking sense. Nobody can respond to you because you're ungrounded."

I'm sorry, who am I talking to? You are an anonymous poster without a story of your own. By definition, you cannot be respected. Your complaints you can't understand anything have no meaning.
Posted by Mike Leung on September 9, 2011 at 8:24 PM · Report this
243
@240,

The difference between you and DARE is that the criticisms actually reached you, and you empathized with how you thought DARE should respond. I haven't read anything from DARE that comes close to showing your degree of empathy. In fact, in my opinion, DARE has a whiff of predator about him; someone that doesn't hesitate to gain at someone else's expense. He argues that sex was the remedy for his attached partners when anyone with a normal sense of boundaries might use a hug and sympathetic ears. Again, that is MY opinion.

Peace.
Posted by Married in MA on September 9, 2011 at 8:37 PM · Report this
244
DARE. Has. No. Victims. There are just some people who don't like him.

Do y'all know who else had no victims, but just some people who didn't like her? Anne Frank. There Anne Frank was, writing down, "Me! Me! Me!" trying to seduce the girl who shared her bed. From a culture of proud outsiders. Flaming. Unsympathetic. Sssociopaththth...

I have an idea. How about we start saving our disgust for at least those with actual victims.
Posted by Mike Leung on September 9, 2011 at 8:48 PM · Report this
245
I am not proud of having slept with 'taken' women, but trust me, their husbands/boyfriends were no angels. It takes two to tango and to blame me as the 'predator' and only culpable agent in the scenario seems mysandronistic.
Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 8:53 PM · Report this
246
Goddamn. I find all these 'DARE IS' this, 'DARE IS' that comments so simplistic. What science is the DSM IV based on anyways? Certainly not double blind, placebo controlled studies.

You people aren't even qualified in the pseudoscience you spew, and I'm the name dropper?
Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 9:00 PM · Report this
247
I don't doubt the husbands of the women he slept with are victims. But DARE broke no vow, and betrayed no trust. They were his partners' victims.
Posted by Mike Leung on September 9, 2011 at 9:02 PM · Report this
248
#201

"He's a theater major.

Cased closed. "

Probably the only accusation or label slung at me on here that I will cop to. Though I never graduated.
Posted by outofwater on September 9, 2011 at 9:03 PM · Report this
249
I like the way pointing out all the people making armchair diagnoses kind of distracts us from the many other people who just think he's a dick.
Posted by Pinkerton on September 9, 2011 at 9:41 PM · Report this
250
@248: Congratulations on being a horny theatre major.
Posted by auntie grizelda on September 9, 2011 at 9:59 PM · Report this
Sandiai 251
"What science is the DSM IV based on anyways? Certainly not double blind, placebo controlled studies."

You're right about that! However psychologists and clinicians needed diagnostic tools and a language in order to talk about these disorders. Think of the DSM-IV as math: almost entirely made up, but a useful language for describing many scientific principles. Personally, I like the ICD-10 better as it's based more on organic etiologies and neuroscience.

"You people aren't even qualified in the pseudoscience you spew, and I'm the name dropper?"

Again, good point. We should have stuck with what you're doing wrong in terms of how you relate to people (you've described well a lot of things you do) and how what you SAY leaves a certain impression.

But... I'm sorry...I CAN drop a few names here I think. I wrote my dissertation on some of the underlying similarities in the mental illnesses that I mentioned. All of the data that I collected was language based-you really can learn a lot about a person by what they say. And I'm on something like my third career (yes I'm old). I spent years doing neuroscience, and then worked as a consultant in the government (explaining behavioral science to lawyers mostly).

Now, on a personal level, not a professional level, I don't like big egoes. I don't like when people are stubborn or fake or selfish. You kind of raised my hackles and those of others by what you're saying and how you are not Listening, even to the sloggers who started out sounding reasonable. Anyway, one doesn't need credentials to have good insight, as many sloggers here have shown.

I am sorry I/we hurt your feelings. Please just tell me you learned something from this painful exercise.
More...
Posted by Sandiai on September 9, 2011 at 10:55 PM · Report this
252
"bedding lovelies?"
gross
Posted by mdi12 on September 9, 2011 at 11:08 PM · Report this
253
"bedding lovelies?"
gross
Posted by ladynuca on September 9, 2011 at 11:09 PM · Report this
254
240

I hope DARE fucks your partner next.
Posted by obviously you adore liars and bullshitters, so why not on September 9, 2011 at 11:16 PM · Report this
255
I just can't get past DARE's attitude of "Sure, I stir shit up, but I just can't fathom why people are sll stirred up after I get done with them." Dude, I do not believe you are genuinely that obtuse. You fuck with people because you get something out of fucking with people, but to then stand there afterwards blinking innocently and be all sad that they feel fucked with just comes across as disingenuous.
Posted by avast2006 on September 9, 2011 at 11:39 PM · Report this
256
Sandiai@227: "The encounters I've had with remorseless individuals who completely lack insight (and insight's child: empathy), have left me so traumatized that I have a keen eye and ear for detecting such individuals. Several different diseases can produce the characteristics that we see here: narcissistic personality disorder, borderline pd (probably not so much the case here, although borderlines really like to stir up shit), the prodromal phase of schizophrenia (which can last for years), and the manic phase of bipolar disorder and schizoaffective disorder."

Sandiai@251: "Now, on a personal level, not a professional level, I don't like big egoes. I don't like when people are stubborn or fake or selfish. You kind of raised my hackles and those of others by what you're saying and how you are not Listening, even to the sloggers who started out sounding reasonable."

As the studied-commenter, what do you have to say about the the commenters who lost their shit? Where is your keen eye for their stubbornness and fakeness and selfishness? Why does their remorselessness not demand your intervention, but DARE's does?

Are you giving them a pass because you're never subject to receiving that kind of hate and disgust? How is that discretion to apply a principle and judge people any less selfish and remorseless than DARE?

"Me! Me! Me!" and big egos everywhere, but we're only punishing the least-able to defend themselves to kid ourselves our remorselessness is the remorselessness of decent people? That's crap. DARE can just as well claim to be intervening on the remorselessness of the people who by your account ("even to the sloggers who started out sounding reasonable") lost their shit here. But he hasn't been heinous enough to surf on the disgust of a pack-mentality like you've done. I'd sincerely like to hear how it doesn't suck to be you.
More...
Posted by Mike Leung on September 10, 2011 at 2:09 AM · Report this
257
DARE@245,

And therein lies the difference between us. I would have said misogynistic in this case, NOT misandristic. But that would make you a tool for revenge.

Peace.
Posted by Married in MA on September 10, 2011 at 4:36 AM · Report this
258
@254: So do I, asshole... Being a non-monogamous type who invites interesting people such as DARE to join in and share my relationships. I'd certainly prefer cuckolding or polyamory or whatever you want to call it with DARE than to have to spend more time than what it takes to smoke a cigarette listening to some self-aggrandized "victim" who is not even registered on this site.

Mindwinds
Posted by zell_zyte on September 10, 2011 at 6:14 AM · Report this
259
258

note that the LW isn't poly, he only fucks committed partners just because you get off on being lied to and deceived by some predator moving in on your love, doesn't mean that others shouldn't loathe someone who forces that upon them

DARE being unsympathetic makes sense, his issues are many

how can you be so uncaring about others to "reserve judgment" on someone who does this without ever wanting to change his behavior patterns?

you talk about our opinion versus Dan's but CONVENIENTLY IGNORE when Dan says "at some point, you're going to have to admit—at least to yourself—that your "I love everybody" routine is a disguise, and you get off on creating confusion, and you're a narcissist (perhaps with cause) with a sadistic streak"

256

mike, the LW's behavior is very destructive and a sign of greater issues that he is willing to admit but has NEVER been willing to address, in the initial letter and onward in this thread. why encourage him in this rotten behavior?
Posted by defend fake hippie, attack those wanting truth/trust/health on September 10, 2011 at 8:39 AM · Report this
260
also

256

"what do you have to say about the the commenters who lost their shit? Where is your keen eye for their stubbornness and fakeness and selfishness?"

it's a sign of vague mental unwellness want to be in the center of a shitstorm of drama and false fronts

it is not unhealthy to want those people to stop being manchildren and grow the fuck up and stop hurting others

it is pure projection that you see our anger at rotten individuals as "selfish" and "fake", especially as the LW admitted in this thread to being willfully manipulative for entertainment

stubbornness i'll cop to, because these sick people are not used to people standing up to their lies and machinations
Posted by "nuh uh! no you!" way to add nothing to the discussion on September 10, 2011 at 8:46 AM · Report this
261
I'm pretty sure DARE would make me want to claw my eyes out. He sounds like the incredibly annoying flirt that thinks he's the shit because people keep smiling but they really just want him to leave and fall down a hole somewhere.
Posted by jenc01 on September 10, 2011 at 8:55 AM · Report this
262
I also have been professionally schooled in using and have used the DSM criteria in my professional work, but I also think they are just categories based on what we're learning about gene/brain/environment/culture/family interactions. In addition, I come from a family, who, on any given day, displays unique combos of Cluster B and C traits that defy easy diagnosis.

Like the DARE I know (and I'm trying not to project too much onto outofwater who is likely not the same person but they do share so many behaviors), most of them will admit these traits interfere with their ability to have fulfilling lives. Some are well aware that they push buttons to get a rise out of others or that what they do in a rage hurts others. Some justify hurting others. Others think they're acting purely rationally because they think other people should do what they want and be who they want them to be all the time. You can see how easily what could be seen as just quirky personality traits shade into abusive behavior.

When a person has a number of positive quirky traits, as DARE and those like him clearly do, they are fun and interesting to be around. But soon enough, if they're not "owning" the drama-causing behaviors, as Dan advises, they push people away who want to have real two-way relationships, not just be on the line for whatever shots person in question is calling in his/her particular mood - and not dependable when you need whatever you need from your friend, lover, family member, etc. It's not being a victim to set boundaries and take care of yourself when your loved one can't or isn't ready to hear how their behavior is hurtful.

Here's an example of someone who has dramatic personality traits, but who "owns" similar sexual needs to outofwater; she owns her desire to be sexual - and the "in-control" one - with a number of people as well as her discomfort with commitment. She finds partners through online sites. Yes, sometimes this does include married men. but it's married me who are advertising; she doesn't start humming "Let's Get It On" the moment a committed man in her social circle hints at discord in his relationship. She can be a flirt, but unlike both outofwater and the DARE I know, she doesn't lead anyone on she has no intention of bedding, she doesn't say she wants monogamy while behaving otherwise, she is not seducing her way through her friends and co-workers, and she's had the same group of good friends for many years because she hasn't used sex and snaring others mates to compete with them.

More...
Posted by idea struck on September 10, 2011 at 9:59 AM · Report this
263
@idea struck --- Guess you still haven't internalized the "thinking beings" part of the equation which I addressed in my first comment on this thread. You act as if "your love" or my love or whomever's love, would instantly melt into a puddle of self-destructive, remorseful sex juice upon the eye-batting of some quasi-fem gender queer guy, who's probably a college-age type and a dime a dozen. Quit whining. If someone is old enough to be in a "serious 2-way relationship," as you say, they're old enough to turn on their player-dar and use it. If not, don't date. What's really unattractive is not people who like to flirt and mess around and maybe act a little self-centered for a few years as they discover the world around them. What's really unattractive is adult "manchildren" who want to stomp their feet in the corner and scream, "That's not fair!!!" while everyone else is having a good time. You don't even know what the definition of an attack is, apparently. This is a disagreement, not an attack. If you prefer to rid your world of flirty players and keep your "love" in a safe little bubble, start a commune somewhere. Find the life you want to live instead of expecting other people to hand it to you. The only other motivation I can think of is maybe you're jealous of DARE because you wish you had the cajones to live as freely and cerebrally as he does? Do share. If not for jealousy or childish wish fulfillment, what other reason are you acting like this? I'll sit back and prepare to be amazed, you genius you. ;)
Posted by zell_zyte on September 10, 2011 at 12:00 PM · Report this
264
@263: "who's probably a college-age type and a dime a dozen. Quit whining. If someone is old enough to be in a "serious 2-way relationship," as you say, they're old enough to turn on their player-dar and use it. If not, don't date. What's really unattractive is not people who like to flirt and mess around and maybe act a little self-centered for a few years as they discover the world around them."

Wrong, he's mid-thirties and far too old to be "finding himself" and this clueless.

"What's really unattractive is adult "manchildren" who want to stomp their feet in the corner and scream, "That's not fair!!!" while everyone else is having a good time"

But people aren't having a good time. He has "enemies" everywhere, from his words.

"you had the cajones to live as freely and cerebrally as he does"

He's a himbo hurricane of drama. Not everybody wants to be that dumb and out of control.
Posted by then again, you're probably dumber than him on September 10, 2011 at 12:05 PM · Report this
265
Oh, I see from your blog that you're diagnosed with BPD. No wonder you have so much attraction to a fellow sufferer and such disdain for anyone who speaks out against the more ill-effects that such a condition can have on others.
Posted by My mistake. on September 10, 2011 at 12:14 PM · Report this
266
I don't know whether this thread makes up for my not having home internet since the hurricane (13 days and counting now!) or whether it makes me want to rend my garments from frustration at not having been able to compose a proper comment at home instead of at the library with an evangelizer having a telephone conversation right in my ear.

I admit to having enjoyed people like Mr DARE, but it might have taken me a week or even a month to decide whether or not I liked him. What a shame I've no time to say more - or think of what to say!
Posted by vennominon on September 10, 2011 at 12:37 PM · Report this
267
It's no surprise Dare has generated so much mail. His introductory letter raised interesting gender questions/denials. But things have really gone wild with his follow-up posts. Some of us are awed by his extravagant display of a whacked-out being.

Dare is not an alpha male, he is a marginal human being who can't hold a job, has been homeless, and has had more than the average amount of psychiatric care. His relations with Jesus and seeing into souls announce he's living in another reality.

His vocabulary indicates he's intelligent, but that doesn't mean he makes rational statements. He's never held a salaried job. This suggests he never passed an interview with a manager who was responsible for the success of his department. The failed commercial fishing job does put him pretty well in the Northwest.

He's had a privileged position in life, but things might be tighter now. He finds his truth in introspection.

I don't know how much of his womanizing is true. I'm sure he's verbally intimate with many. We all would obscure our past to bring comfort to our present.

He's clearly homo; a hetero male would not describe himself as "pretty" or "gorgeous." When I call him "sissy", I am describing a specific type of gay. The male sidekick on "Will and Grace" is a fair example. Other males find him an annoying twit when he avoids work and talks about his gorgeousness. He knows why they're homophobes, because he's homo.
Posted by Hunter78 on September 10, 2011 at 2:10 PM · Report this
268
@263

By love I'm not just talking about sexual relationships, I'm talking about any human relationship where love means caring about the feelings and needs of someone besides oneself.

And, as Married in MA pointed out, there are lots of could but won't moments where I could have fun and flirt, play people, have sex with them, but I don't, because the temporary pleasure isn't worth the chaos it would create in the larger social group, with professional contacts, etc. Which doesn't mean I never party, flirt, get sensual, or have sex. These days I would in fact like less partying and flirting and more sensual sex, but I've got some other priorities at the moment...so I didn't, for example, chat up either of the men who were flirting with me at the grocery store last night ;)

There's also a difference between being an honest, straight-up player and some of the stuff we're talking about here. I've dated/slept with a couple of players with my eyes wide open, not slept with but been friends with a couple of players, or avoided some players who didn't seem worth either sex or friendship, pretty well. But most were consistent and honest. Doesn't mean there was never disappointment on one of our parts, but there was no behaving in a way to intentionally cause another person confusion or pain. I was even disappointed by a tease once but then we were able to become friends once I asked him to "treat me like a sister". He listened and heard. The people we're talking about don't respect when you try to set a boundary and keep playing with your mind.

I'm doing this because I watched a group of people get caught up in a circle which included several male and female DARES and it was so much fun for everyone at first, but it got ugly in ways that turned into chemical dependencies/poisinings in people who had been social users, eating disorders, law enforcement involvement, people going to therapy, friendships and professional relationships destroyed, back-stabbing, manipulation, paranoid game-playing and trickery, misogynist behind their backs smack-talk against the women who "would", should I go on? Does this sound like the laid-back hippie loving ideal? I decided this wasn't fun for me. Luckily, in the meantime I had friends in other circles (including a few who had left this one) who provided examples and reminded me of what friendship, love, caring and healthy sexuality (both casual and committed) was all about.

Maybe if anyone else notices these dynamics are going on in their group, they can get out before they find themselves embroiled in one of the above types of maybe fun for some, but not-at-all-about-love chaos...

More...
Posted by idea struck on September 10, 2011 at 2:25 PM · Report this
269
DARE's letter and all the comments that follow are surpassed only by @101...DARE finds an equally insufferable kindred spirit! Hahahaha, this has been the best SL I've read in a long time!
Posted by Snarky on September 10, 2011 at 3:31 PM · Report this
270
@186 "He goes on about how suffering makes him upset. Does that not seem insane to anyone but me? If someone needs to expressly point out that they have empathy, doesn't that seem suspicious to anyone but me? I mean, if I wrote a post saying "I close my eyes. That's another interesting thing about me... During the day I close them very quickly so it doesn't disturb my vision, and then at night time I lie in bed for a long time with my eyes closed the whole time!"

Thank you, that made my day even more than DARE, outofwater, and @101 combined!! I've been laughing for the last 5 minutes...you sum up this guy's self-absorption perfectly!
Posted by Snarky on September 10, 2011 at 3:57 PM · Report this
271
@267: "He's clearly homo; a hetero male would not describe himself as "pretty" or "gorgeous." When I call him "sissy", I am describing a specific type of gay. The male sidekick on "Will and Grace" is a fair example. Other males find him an annoying twit when he avoids work and talks about his gorgeousness. He knows why they're homophobes, because he's homo."

You're forgetting the recent "metrosexual" movement. Very heterosexual men taking on feminine affectations for the purpose of attracting women.

He was angry towards people he claimed were homophobes, but acted just as dumb-jock macho, and doesn't have any actual interest in sex, relationships, or friendship with "lesser" gays that he can exploit and use/abuse.
Posted by he's a gimmick-bound and immature "player", nothing more on September 10, 2011 at 4:08 PM · Report this
272
270: It's pretty silly, people with those sort of symptoms don't "understand" neurotypicals (not referring to ASD) and try to fake standard expressions of emotion, but the more they try to sound like they're concerned the more they come off like Coneheads.
Posted by i do so feel empathy like other humancreatures on September 10, 2011 at 5:09 PM · Report this
273
Sorry I verbalized that suffering upsets me. I will make sure to communicate less from now on.

I think part of the issue here is that many of the aggressive posters who label me and call me names might find themselves insecure and undersexed. I feel your pain. Really I do. Sorry that you feel unhappy with yourself. I know you don't believe me.

No matter what any of you say - know I am a flawed, but compassionate person. Dynamics always require group input. I am not solely to blame for confusion and chaos. Jealousy and envy always play a role.
Posted by outofwater on September 10, 2011 at 6:13 PM · Report this
274
@273: Sure, your suffering is legendary, but your sure don't seem to give a fuck about responding to Dan and any other criticism. You come off as aloof, detached, and alien because you ignore the central premise of the arguments against yourself and evade, dodge, attack the critics and look like more the asshole seeing as you're the one who claimed to have a problem. Are you that myopic? What are you going to do about the advice given?
Posted by Always attack, never DARE defend your actions on September 10, 2011 at 6:43 PM · Report this
275
anonymous poster @259 addressing me: "the LW's behavior is very destructive and a sign of greater issues that he is willing to admit but has NEVER been willing to address..."

anonymous poster @260 addressing me: "it's a sign of vague mental unwellness want to be in the center of a shitstorm of drama and false fronts..."

Do you know who else accepted the challenge of taking himself into the center of a shitstorm? Jackie Robinson. He pissed-off half the country.

All of the complaints against DARE only seem to be about how he won't do what the complainers want him to do. Supposedly DARE is dangerous because he won't take orders from anyone here. It's just been crap.
Posted by Mike Leung on September 10, 2011 at 7:03 PM · Report this
276
"Jealousy and envy always play a role."

Not everyone who encounters and ends up hating you wants to BE you.

That's where the narcissism comes in. Not everyone gets off on causing chaos, manipulations, and clumsily treating others like puppets.
Posted by Jealousy is not the root of your issues. on September 10, 2011 at 7:03 PM · Report this
277
@Mike Leung or whoever told 'ayn' his opinion wasn't valid because he hadn't commented before: I've been reading and appreciating Savage Love since 1987 or something and have never commented till this annoying chain. Does that make my opinion null?

@undead ayn rand -- Love your style:)

@outofwater/DARE - if you're so sure of yourself, why do you feel the need to keep returning ad nauseam to justify? Go out and do some charity work (hey, for the homeless, since you've been there). Focus on something other than your bellybutton. And then people might actually start to like you!

Oh yeah, also you NEVER use labels...hmm, so I collected a lot of 'homophobe', 'tomboy', whoever-else-you-are-pigeonholing (basically everyone who doesn't share your point of view); you told someone they needed to get laid because you couldn't think of a rational argument back (huge bullying label right there)... yeah, you don't throw around any convenient tattoo, do you.
Posted by bloomsday on September 10, 2011 at 7:07 PM · Report this
278
WAIT, is DARE Dan's Colbert?

(Of course, I do drunken bloviating quite well, but since I don't drink anymore...)

Peace.
Posted by Married in MA on September 10, 2011 at 7:36 PM · Report this
279
@DARE: I know that it's easy to say that people who criticize you are just jealous of all the sex you have and of your great self-esteem, but that isn't the case. The fact is, most people don't write gigantic essays analyzing themselves for other people to read because they're incredibly boring. I, for example, read your original letter because Dan posted it, and I even read three paragraphs of your first response because I was trying to get context for the rest of the thread, but after that, I was just too bored to continue. That's the reason why most people don't write giant posts about the inner workings of their minds. It's incredibly boring for other people. It's not that other people don't find the inner workings of their own minds fascinating; it's that most people understand that talking about maybe one small trait with one illustrative, interesting story is about as much as other people want to hear. You, for some reason, have a vastly overestimated idea of how much people are willing to read about your personality on the internet. It may be because you have an insanely large ego, or it could be because you're just not good at recognizing normal social patterns, or maybe you think you're too cool for normal social patterns, I don't know. What I do know is that posting multi-paragraph posts about yourself for strangers to read causes you to come across as extremely annoying and full of yourself. Maybe it's just that your internet posting style is annoying, but you might want to work on that.
Posted by alguna_rubia on September 10, 2011 at 8:56 PM · Report this
280
#277

Yes, I do use labels, and I regret it as a reductionist, narrow minded affliction of the mind. Everyone would prove to be so much more, if given a chance. I see labels as an act of domination mankind exerts over a world that without rhetorical back flips might cause him to face confusion, fear, and darkness.

I know, and admit, that I do not know. Conflict, contradiction. They are not something I run from. Something I take refuge from in a house that I 'OWN', away from the daily struggle for survival that remains the status quo for the bulk of life as we know it.

I don't run, from the uknown, from chaos. I don't expect anyone to share my pain with me, my false order.

"You're a sartyr, not a faun" Dan says. Well I say, I am both. And neither.
Posted by outofwater on September 10, 2011 at 10:22 PM · Report this
281
Your article to DARE, Mr. Dan Savage, was completely awesome! I'm still sixteen, so just a kid really, and all this talk about messing with people and trying to look so cocky really cracks me up. You did a great job of telling DARE where he's at, Mr. Dan Savage.
And as for the kinky woman, you are absolutely right in suggesting that she push back the kink-convo to the third date if not more. I personally think that if you're that woman's age and you're still single, you need to change yourself, but you were very kind about it.
Keep doing what you're doing! You are my role model.
Posted by JenjenS on September 10, 2011 at 11:46 PM · Report this
282
280

"I see labels as an act of domination mankind exerts over a world that without rhetorical back flips might cause him to face confusion, fear, and darkness."

i assume your style of masturbation is also "cinematic"
Posted by compulsed to use dollar words where nickels are called for on September 11, 2011 at 12:57 AM · Report this
283
Is this thread actually still going? LOL.

All I can say is that if DARE were actually as sure of himself and happy with his life as he pretends, he wouldn't spend half a week trying to silence his critics with "badass" one-liners and ridiculous quantum uncertainty babble.

DARE, get your pretty little ass to a therapist already.
Posted by planned barrenhood on September 11, 2011 at 3:51 AM · Report this
284
I'm neither "good at people" or "good with people". I couldn't read every comment here -- it was too overwhelming and repetitive.

The one thing I know is that this has been an extremely lopsided pile-on. For good reason, it seems to me; however, it has been lop-sided.

Why the pile-on? Why continue to engage with this guy, why not just walk away? So many people needed to say the same thing over and over to this guy. Something was triggered big time, it seems to me.

Bottom line -- I fear for DARE's mental health after all this attention dies away. Again, I am not "good at people." Perhaps all will be well, if DARE is as insulated as he is painted by some who have posted here.. But I know that when I am challenged, I am good at defending myself -- however in the dark of the night later, it is a different story.

DARE, be careful, okay?

Everyone else, maybe it is time to give this a rest. There is nothing to be gained here by continuing this lop-sided pile-on. All has been said, surely?

Dan? What say you? Part of this happened because you directed traffic here from your blog. Is this okay with you?
Posted by bareboards on September 11, 2011 at 4:17 AM · Report this
285
What's piling-on is all these 9/11 commemorations in the general media. Celebrating a defeat seems so Serbian or Southern.
Posted by Hunter78 on September 11, 2011 at 5:37 AM · Report this
286
Nice.
Posted by Hunter78 on September 11, 2011 at 5:44 AM · Report this
287
theres at least a couple of posts supporting DARE, and they are kind of rambling and nonsensical as well. i wouldnt put it past DARE, one itsy bit, to pose as different posters and write praise of himself in this thread. guy needs serious psychiatric help, but doesnt seem the type to want it of course.
Posted by wowwww on September 11, 2011 at 7:43 AM · Report this
288
JenjenS@281 "I'm still sixteen... [but] I personally think that if you're that woman's age [26] and you're still single, you need to change yourself, but you were very kind about it."

It's great to work everyday on becoming the person you want to be: brave, strong, productive, living in line with your ethics. But I recommend doing it for yourself, not as mechanism for getting a partner.
Posted by EricaP on September 11, 2011 at 9:26 AM · Report this
289
To renounce belief in one's ego, to deny one's own "reality" -- what a triumph! not merely over the senses, over appearance, but a much higher kind of triumph, a violation and cruelty against reason -- a voluptuous pleasure that reaches its height when the ascetic self-contempt and self-mockery of reason declares: "there is a realm of truth and being, but reason is excluded from it!"
But precisely because we seek knowledge, let us not be ungrateful to such resolute reversals of accustomed perspectives and valuations with which the spirit has, with apparent mischievousness and futility, raged against itself for so long: to see differently in this way for once, to want to see differently, is no small discipline and preparation for its future "objectivity" -- the latter understood not as "contemplation without interest" (which is a nonsensical absurdity), but as the ability to control one's Pro and Con and to dispose of them, so that one knows how to employ a variety of perspectives and affective interpretations in the service of knowledge.
Henceforth, my dear philosophers, let us be on guard against the dangerous old conceptual fiction that posited a "pure, will-less, painless, timeless knowing subject"; let us guard against the snares of such contradictory concepts as "pure reason," absolute spirituality," "knowledge in itself": these always demand that we should think of an eye that is completely unthinkable, an eye turned in no particular direction, in which the active and interpreting forces, through which alone seeing becomes seeing something, are supposed to be lacking; these always demand of the eye an absurdity and a nonsense. There is only a perspective seeing, only a perspective "knowing"; and the more affects we allow to speak about one thing, the more eyes, different eyes, we can use to observe one thing, the more complete will our "concept" of this thing, our "objectivity," be. But to eliminate the will altogether, to suspend each and every affect, supposing we were capable of this -- what would that mean but to castrate the intellect?

Just when I think I am losing faith in humanity, all I have to do is read some Nietzsche.
More...
Posted by outofwater on September 11, 2011 at 9:51 AM · Report this
290
@289: I like that the whole paragraph sounds like you're saying something, but it comes off as a meaningless markov chain built from lesser blog entries with a random call-out to a philosopher you haven't read.
Posted by all bullshit and babble, just like a soft science dropout on September 11, 2011 at 10:03 AM · Report this
291
Here's some sincere advice for you, outofwater. Ignoring the issues brought up previously, stop pretending to know philosophy, psychology, sociology, anything you cover here. Start reading more. You have a basic germ of the ideas in each, but it sounds like you're not reading any primary sources, only repeating what someone else implied the authors and concepts cover. Take some time, and if you're as underemployed as you describe, you should have plenty of time to hit up your local library. Focus on one subject, be good at it, know it, even if you don't get a job, you'll at least have a more nuanced and interesting understanding of it for these sort of discussions with strangers and get less awkward yawns at parties. Grats to you for not subsisting on a diet of reality television, but your interest seems just enough to hypnotize a drunk, but not enough for to arouse anyone's sober interest for long. Focus on something, anything, at least towards finding long-term employment.
Posted by the "sexy drifter" shtick only lasts so long on September 11, 2011 at 10:38 AM · Report this
292
@290 the whole paragraph is a direct quote from Walter Kaufmann's translation of Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals
http://www.theperspectivesofnietzsche.co…
Posted by EricaP on September 11, 2011 at 10:42 AM · Report this
293
@bloomsday: the fact that undead ayn rand hasn't commented before doesn't make his points invalid per se... I merely brought that up because he (she?) is trying to so hard to flaunt his/her supposed "expertise" on relationships. If he/she is such an expert, where has he/she been all our lives, while we're all desperately struggling to be just as "evolved" as him/her? Does that make sense? Just a thought. By the way, anonymous jerk who won't even register but wants to bash me with invective... THANKS for reading my blog. Got ya, sucker!!!

@EricaP: I just want to be extra clear that even though I used your uber-presence on this board as an illustrative example for some other assbags to read, you were not one of them and I think you are pretty awesome. Really.
Posted by zell_zyte on September 11, 2011 at 12:26 PM · Report this
294
293

"By the way, anonymous jerk who won't even register but wants to bash me with invective... THANKS for reading my blog. Got ya, sucker!!!"

lifelong attention-hungerer gains attention, a victory for you!

"I just want to be extra clear that even though I used your uber-presence on this board as an illustrative example for some other assbags to read, you were not one of them and I think you are pretty awesome. Really."

an insulting comparison, because she doesn't take pleasure in the suffering of others as DARE and you may. her love life is not at the expense of others.
Posted by your poor, long-suffering partner on September 11, 2011 at 1:43 PM · Report this
295
@289 AHHHHHHH!!!!!!! DO NOT TARNISH NIETZSCHE!!!!!!!!

I don't care what you use to defend yourself, but leave him out of it. With his sister, the third reich, half assed translations and poor academic efforts in america regarding his life's works; his memory really doesn't need to be trampled on any further by being brought up in such a random nonsensical matter on a thread for sex/relationship advice.

Just tell everyone, as you have dozens of times already, that you see no reason to change and that everyone here misunderstands you & etc. without turning this into an undergraduate class ethics discussion.
Posted by mygash on September 11, 2011 at 2:48 PM · Report this
296
Dare, you are SO full of yourself you should have a neon "No Vacancy" sign on your forehead. Every long-winded tome you compose only serves to prove that hypothesis.

You are NOT all that, ok? You are NOT so stunningly beautiful and intelligent and self-aware and well-intentioned and actualized and humble (did I mention humble?) that you are simply teribly misunderstood by the rest of us lesser beings.

You are an insecure, attention/approval craving, manipulative, selfish little twit. Dan called it (as did I after the first paragraph of your initial letter).

This doesn't mean you are an awful person...it just means you are ONE OF US. Get over yourself. Everyone else has.
Posted by AnastasiaBeaverhousen on September 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM · Report this
297
P.S. To clarify, I meant my remarks with all due respect and love..."One of us" is not a bad thing...we'd be happy to have you:)
Posted by AnastasiaBeaverhousen on September 11, 2011 at 2:53 PM · Report this
298
Nietzsche can make an atheist think of God.

Posted by Hunter78 on September 11, 2011 at 3:02 PM · Report this
299
@293/294 - thanks, both of you :-)
@296/997 - impressive flip flop
Posted by EricaP on September 11, 2011 at 4:27 PM · Report this
300
@298,

"Oh God, do I REALLY have to read this?"

Peace
Posted by Married in MA on September 11, 2011 at 5:27 PM · Report this
301
Holy smokes Dan, you figured out in one letter what it took me almost 5 years after a horrible 4 year relationship to figure out.
Posted by Gladtobeout on September 11, 2011 at 5:33 PM · Report this
302
DARE,

You really need to stop talking back to us, your superiors, and start doing as we've told you. Remember this: while OUR magnificent understanding of you comes from our incredible wisdom, experience, and erudition, your attempts to quote impressive sources are nothing more than jejune efforts at avoiding the great wisdom of OUR orders. In summation, you are a big fat poopyhead, and we hope you get ignored for the rest of your life, because we should not give a narcissist like you any attention.

And you know what's worst about you, DARE? You have no self-awareness. None.
Posted by tensor on September 11, 2011 at 8:35 PM · Report this
303
Okay. I have not made myself honest.
I hold most of you in contempt. All you readers of and editorial staff at the Stranger. I tried to avoid a power struggle and see through to the individuals, but now I give up. I will dominate you in words, with labels, as you have done to me.
We conflict. Our minds struggle in utter conflict. Your ideas and my ideas wage war.
I hold you in utter contempt. The overwhelming majority of you are white, middle class bourgeoisie.
Your order means nothing to me. My god is chaos. Your monogamous security I consider false.
You cause chaos yourselves the world over with your concentrated fiat wealth and top down pyramid rape schemes.
You support the institutions of hierarchy and power structures, all while assuaging your guilt with liberal minded, leftist pomp morals.
You maintain your properties, your yards, your Volvos, your nuclear families, your jobs in upper management, as a swipe in class warfare.
A police State, men with guns, protects your precious NPR order. You support laughable issues like Planned Parenthood and gay marriage while looking the other way, like cowards, while Obama crafts the largest arms deal in U.S. history with the Saudis.
No I have no value for your version of order. The only thing you have that I consider sacred and beyond reproach are your children, even though I know, given time, you will craft them into replicas of your own repressed, frigid WASP minds.
I will disrupt your status quos at every opportunity.
I will continue to fuck your wives and confuse your insecure husbands.
Your pitiful moralizing makes me cringe. Your precious truths beg enforcement by conveyor belt schooling and media homogenization.
Your blood courses with big pharma artificial hormonal birth control and SSRI’s to render any vestige of primal, natural rage and resistance in your systems into vapor.
Weak, pitiful souls. Too wispy to create your own meaning so you look to paternal entities like priests, teachers and politicians to spoon feed your values to you.
You closet sadists and masochists, secretly wet and hard every day you join the corporate circus to kow tow to those above and mount those below like a pack of vying dogs.
Crippled, hobbled ghosts who closet your fears and anguish at every turn to avoid the pressure to face your demons and question yourselves.
False false and false. I tried to make peace but realize now I have always and will always hold you in contempt. I have no respect for your precious property or order. Yes, my god is chaos. And I am my own god.
More...
Posted by outofwater on September 11, 2011 at 8:37 PM · Report this
304
"And I am my own god."

lawnmower man was a bad movie
Posted by though gardeners provide a valuable service and work hard on September 11, 2011 at 9:16 PM · Report this
305
@303: TL;DR.
Posted by avast2006 on September 11, 2011 at 9:32 PM · Report this
306
@303: "I hold most of you in contempt. All you readers of and editorial staff at the Stranger. I tried to avoid a power struggle and see through to the individuals, but now I give up. I will dominate you in words, with labels, as you have done to me.

...

You maintain your properties, your yards, your Volvos, your nuclear families, your jobs in upper management, as a swipe in class warfare."

This is class warfare?

No.

This is us laughing at you, the chaos-seeking drifter masquerading behind bohemian airs. "I am supported while I 'find myself', I blow through 'friends' when they prove themselves useless to me, and while I can regurgitate the works of others, i have no creative spark to justify my empty hedonism."

If you think Savage Love is a series of invectives on the underclass, you're projecting your own loathing on those who cannot easily be provided with a comfy job through nepotism when it is time to "settle down".
Posted by perhaps people just don't like *you* on September 11, 2011 at 10:30 PM · Report this
307
DANCE, DANCE MY PUPPETS
Posted by I PULL THE STREENGS on September 11, 2011 at 10:34 PM · Report this
308
@303: Why do I suddenly hear 60s rock poetry by Jim Morrison?

Posted by auntie grizelda on September 11, 2011 at 11:15 PM · Report this
309
Geez OUTOFWATER, just stop. I'm sorry you need a lot of attention right now but maybe you should go find it with all of those lovely people who love and admire you for your beauty and pure soul.
Posted by crazymaisy on September 11, 2011 at 11:41 PM · Report this
310
Geez OUTOFWATER, please stop. It seems you need a lot of attention right now but maybe it would be more fulfilling to get it in person with whatever kind of person you like. It's just sad to see you go on and on....maybe a therapist would help?
Posted by crazymaisy on September 11, 2011 at 11:46 PM · Report this
311
If you have unregistered comments turned off, # 306 is rather good.
Posted by Joe Glibmoron on September 12, 2011 at 12:00 AM · Report this
312
@308: My vote's for Marilyn Manson by way of Alex Jones.
Posted by with a dash of Ron Paul on September 12, 2011 at 12:36 AM · Report this
313
@303

Trying to recall the last time I read something so full of shit. It was probably an ANUS blog post.
Posted by xexyzl on September 12, 2011 at 2:59 AM · Report this
314
So the actual problem you're writing to Savage Love to address is an arms deal by this administration? Keep on fucking married ladies and looking people in the eye for the cause!
Posted by Nice Try on September 12, 2011 at 3:59 AM · Report this
315
@ 303 "Okay. I have not made myself honest.
I hold most of you in contempt."

Yeah. No shit. However, you can adjust the contrast on your dramatic movie projector: we KNOW you don't give a shit about us, and hold us in contempt. That's because YOU HOLD YOUR OWN SELF IN CONTEMPT!

You NEVER LEARN. Instead of reveling in great fortune like an obnoxious tool (your legendary physical beauty, your not having to hold down a real job despite "enduring many hardships" (Go Fuck Off Already.) )...

Instead of reeling it out of general awareness and interpersonal respect for other people, you ensure that by being an asshole from the get-go, you will in turn:

a.) Guarantee what people expect of you, to be a rich, conceited, delusional asshole. If they already expect you to be douche, then who are you to disappoint then?

&

b.) Use the bullshit excuse of being so special to isolate yourself, thus, compounding your issues and problems.

There have been many, many well-off and very attractive people who have managed to integrate with everyone else without flaunting their rare instance of being able to afford live without working, whilst looking like a dreamboat, with most lurvly eyelashes (Fucking Queen.).

Your stubborness and sense of deflection and projection is sadly hysterical, D.A.R.E./outofwater/Out Of Order.

How much you wanna bet D.A.R.E. has a beard who he keeps on payroll to be sure that he is continuously revealed to the world as being straight and primarily into women?

I hope she's earning her keep on your payroll with Emmy-worthy smiles in pictures as well as being good value for money by indulging your penchant for being pegged in the ass with a strap-on.

Sooooo..... You are so Alpha and Competitive, aren't you, D.A.R.E.?

The fact that your old lady pegs you in the ass with a plastic cock already indicates how much of an OMEGA BITCH YOU ARE internally, but, for utmost, dramatic effect for the rest of the world, you're in control, never wrong and never need to grow, learn and/or grow up.

You're a pathetic liar, D.A.R.E..

What always gets me about closet cases is that they totally lose sight about it all being much less about being gay and being afraid than it is that they hurt and piss off their loved ones by lying to them, for no good reason really.

I bet D.A.R.E. has had to uphold the theme of being straight and it's a hole he can't get out of... Digging further and deeper to ensure that his inheritance will continue to be distributed as long as he isn't one of them fags and provides his parents with grandchildren.

D.A.R.E., you're 30+. Since you admitted to being at least bi, don't you think your family and friends haven't sniffed out or suspected that you're a little light in the loafers?

People can try to hide secrets, and yet somehow, their own actions will betray their need for secrecy.. A losing battle that you can only win by "D.A.R.E."-ing to be honest, and LIVE HONESTLY.

No one's parents raises them to lie (or, at least, you would hope not, but it takes all kinds...) . So, Why Not make good on the life you could have left by just coming clean now and giving your own self some peace (and by extension, everyone else who may still care about you)?

It's feeling that you need to lie to please people that is most sad and offensive to people, D.A.R.E./outofwater/Out Of Order.

I am at heart wasting my time trying to help you out, D.A.R.E.: you aren't ready to be honest with yourself and everyone else, but I am: you're sick in the head and you need help. Doubtful you will get any anytime soon, but hey; maybe one day you'll surprise yourself and realize that being an asshole is more hard work than just being generally-honest, and decent: meeting anyone halfway.

It is fascinating to watch you be such a mess, D.A.R.E.. Beyond that, your pontificating and waxing poseur-intellectualism is hysterically-boring.

If you were honest, people would like you more.

Since you're not, you're up Shit Creek: minus both paddles.

But then, you already know that.

Hence your frantic clucking and showboating.

Well, at least you admitted to being a Drama Queen.

Ditch the drama and you're still a Queen though.

Maybe you can buy your gayness away with a bearded wife and controversial forms of therapy that never have worked in the history of homosexuality.

You make yourself unlikeable, D.A.R.E. .

You fear the truth.

Very sad.
More...
Posted by Long Yet Spot-On & Poignant on September 12, 2011 at 6:53 AM · Report this
316
D.A.R.E., you're a bitch in life: you wanna be alpha, but you're as omega as a bottom.

You're MY Bitch! Just like your old lady is on payroll to be your bitch (while you are HER bitch in the sack, as she pegs you and helps you maintain your outer, closeted status)...

Just like your old lady's role is to be your bitch, YOU ARE MY BITCH, because you are a liar and you are indeed afraid and jealous, envious, etc. that someone like me is BRAVE, HONEST AND FREE.

I used to know someone like you. Never could face me, and was intimidated by me. I realized it wasn't me, it was him.

Just like it is YOU, and NOT US that has the problems. We can try to help while we have your ass handed back to you, but your responses still are still indicative of someone who won't try to help themselves anytime soon, so fuck it: you're on your own now.

I'm glad I am me and not you, D.A.R.E.: no matter how much money or good looks you say you have. You're poor on the stuff of life: being a human being.

It's never too late to get it right, but you have to want it for yourself. I don't sense that about you, so I can now let it go and move on: living brave, honest and free.

How's the renovation going on the walk-in closet condo you have going on there?
Posted by Stab You Through The City Spires on September 12, 2011 at 7:01 AM · Report this
317
@ D.A.R.E.: It's tiring debating/arguing with someone who doesn't see the inherent sense in meeting anyone halfway by just being honest.

I myself am gay. I relate to the duress, pain and confusion of not being able to reconcile the fact that being gay is not a choice. Sexuality is not really something that is changeable due to environmental and/or societal factors.

Being gay can be a tough life. Who would ever opt to make their lives more difficult?

Some Things Just ARE: sexuality is among them. People can spend a whole lifetime fighting their own selves, remaining in denial about what is.

Honesty serves Everyone Well: yourself by relieving and beginning to heal the abscesses, and everyone else by having you become someone they really wish for you to be: honest, happy and healthy.

I wish you were any of those three things, D.A.R.E. (Seriously.) . Insulting you isn't going to enlighten you (not that anything has up until this point, but that's neither here nor there).

Who knows? Maybe you could find happiness and make your circle proud by finding it within yourself to save your own self by surrendering to honesty out of necessity.

I wish you well. I wish you luck, actually. Realizing and coming to terms with being gay is just simply accepting it is what it is, you didn't choose to be that way and you can't change that you are that way. As the very talented, charismatic and disarmingly-honest Lady Gaga would sing and say, you were "Born This Way".

Aside from your insatiable need for drama, chaos and attention, I guess I do believe you are interested slightly in helping yourself to heal, accept and move on: growing Better from it all.

No one can teach you or show you how to be honest with yourself. One of those things that makes life a lonely, sometimes cold struggle, but it's Beyond Worthwhile to face yourself head on, and allow yourself the chance to be honesty, by living it.

Especially if you have kids: don't lie to your kids! Kids are wayyyyyyyyyyy smarter than we want to admit: we were all kids once. How dumb were any of us?

D.A.R.E., the fact that you crave attention means that you aren't receiving the right attention from those you fear would reject you if you were to be honest.

Being a liar is worthy of rejection.
Being gay and troubled with that honestly is worthy of being embraced for. And commended.

EVERYONE has a conscience. I hope you get reacquainted with yours one day, D.A.R.E./Out Of Order/outofwater.

See?

Sincerity needn't be rendered boring.

It's not.

Wasting your own time most of all relishing a network of functional lies is.

You could be an ok,etc. person if you just did what most people do on a daily-enough basis: living and being as honest as you can be.

No one asks or expects anything more out of anyone than that.

If your circle does not do that, then consider finding a new one to surround yourself with.

Good luck, man.

You're gonna need it.
More...
Posted by Life's Still Worth The Balance & Crumpled Paper on September 12, 2011 at 7:37 AM · Report this
Sunnybunny1269 318
DARE doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I find it uplifting to be flirted with by someone who is young and cute and doesn't want anything from me but my reaction. I am extremely disturbed by FIS who claims to be interested in some girl that he clearly has no respect for. I feel that happens way too often already.
Posted by Sunnybunny1269 on September 12, 2011 at 7:50 AM · Report this
319
Frederica Bimble has never met a woman similar to the one described in the third letter, therefore, a woman like that couldn't POSSIBLY exist. MEN with those same traits, on the other hand...

Sounds like Dan got the man-hating committee out and in full force.
Posted by suddenlyorcas on September 12, 2011 at 8:14 AM · Report this
320
@ 303: You sound like a night out with Mel Gibson.

God, you are a screaming HOMO.

I took it upon myself to do some crafty translation to help the likes of you, with your own words whittled down for optimum effect:

***********************

Before I go into the now I’ll delve to the past for a little background on myself.

I have always been attracted to males. I have always had crushes on male teachers and classmates. I have always fantasized about men. Another friend's mother caught myself and my closest early childhood friend, a boy, naked and in missionary position when we were five. My friend's mother told my mother and what my mother said has psychologically scarred me since. This was my first sexual experience, and I was hard. I think I learned the moves I used on my boy (I was french kissing him) from films. To this day I have trouble getting hard while I am making out. My love-making style is very cinematic, which is another way to say I am as a gay as a pride parade.

I digress.

Moving on, I have had experiences with other males as well. All fondling, licking, tickling, sucking and fucking. I have at times found the penis erotic and it consumes me so. I enjoy men so much and prefer them in every respect. None of my erotic dreams include women and I have only masturbated to orgasm thinking of a woman once, which felt awkward and not erotic. The issue at hand, so to speak, is that I get pegged in the ass and, so to speak, as being gay, so to speak, quite a lot. I recognize why this would be. I do flirt with men.

The pattern I see:

I am a now slightly-overweight, married-to-a-woman-beard pretty boy with not a shred of soul to my name, so perhaps this causes confusion. My eyes never lock with anyone else's for long, because I know I am so full of shit and a closet case. I have long, fake eyelashes. I rarely make eye contact with anyone.

Also, many of these guys who accuse me of being gay seem to be quite correct about me in general. I notice that I also tend to display "mate poaching behavior," meaning I tend to flirt with men who are in relationships, and I have been with quite a few men who are in relationships, or married, and fellow sociopaths are often attracted to me. I only do this because I secretly want the wives' husbands to fuck me hard in my bitchy little ass. I am a coward, and a nationally-certified (and certifiable) card-carrying douchebag.

Generally, Dan, I guess I am just a shithead. I consider myself a very sensual person and in a way I understand how a lot of guys might think I would be gay. They're right that I am gay. I just can't accept it or face it within myself. Overt sensuality and sexuality in the male is a distinction prone to gray areas and confusion, I am sure. Also: I seem to act more gay to the point where even I start to question things. I think part of me is like, "Well, if they think I'm gay, then maybe I am gay." Which, course, I am, but I've yet to face it for real. And this throws me for a loop, because i know I love men. I enjoy being with women and I am happy with women, because we care share knitting tips and fantasize about who is hotter, Robert Pattinson or Taylor Lautner.

It dawns on me that these accusers—these men who think I'm gay—might be the honest ones. It's me who is in denial. Please help, Dan!!

So, to break it down: Sometimes I feel gay, so, therefore, I AM Gay! But usually it is only around my drunken male friends who I consider attractive.

I feel very frustrated, Dan, because a lot of the flak I get seems to be about my issues, not anyone else's. All of it really. I do feel confused and I feel like I use people.

Damn Acronyms Really Evade

Hello everyone. This is DARE. I wrote the letter.

I am a narcissist. I am nice to people only as a way to try to control them. My conclusion? I'm a narcissist. Dan writing his column I consider a narcissistic behavior. But then, I do tend to project my nonsense onto others. I bet it arouses him every time I send him naked pics of myself (along with some $$ kickback so I can be guaranteed my bullshit gets printed each and every week).

I feel like I genuinely have absolutely no empathy with people. When I see someone in pain or suffering, I laugh aloud inwardly. So there has got to be a no-good aspect about me. I'll never know. I'm too stupid to even wonder. Maybe next time I fall through thin ice, you will be the first one to say, "Need help? Hope you get some!" Without hesitation.

Even Jesus was an asshole like I am, except I'm the bigger of the douchebags.

My point? I don't know. But then, I never have a point. I just run my mouth and make my plight even worse. But I do like being a douchebag. I like making no eye contact with everyone I meet and avoiding their soul. I like to hear only my own story, my frustrations and trials. Man, woman, child, dog, tree, bird. So much beauty. I would fuck them all if I wasn't only gay. I feel like a baby. Everything equals sex. I am a closet animal fucker. I NEED attention.

So when I hold eye contact with macho men and they seem to get the urge to call me a faggot, the issue originates from me.

Like I witnessed someone say at a sports bar when football player and model Tom Brady came on the screen, "I just want to punch him. He's such a dickhead."

Oh and Dan I do flirt with attractive, secure guys too, I suppose. But I consider this mackin' on the guys. There have been times in my life when highly charismatic individuals have inflicted 'upstaging' anxiety in me. I wonder, did that happen because I was attracted to them, or attracted to what they represent, to their potential. Now that I am more insecure than ever, I do get uncomfortable or nervous around handsome men.

_________________________________________

#14

Hello, this is DARE.

Please help me to stop projecting my issues onto others. Please.

I enjoy doing both manly things and feminine things. I consider myself unbalanced. I can wear lingerie better than most women and I also nurture. I need to get over my gender bullshit. And no, even if I was born with ovaries I hope I would be into cosmetics and hair styling. SEXY.

A message to men: there are flaming HOMO guys, me included, out there that find your natural odor and arm pit/leg hair a turn on.


#14

Also, god damn. I fuck with women to deny my gayness. All these replies are spot on. No one likes me. Maybe I like to touch and feel and be intimate with men, uh, like, because they are hot to me, dude.

Guys who get laid a lot might be actually gay guys who are trying to fuck the gayness away.

Conclusion? I actually enjoy being with men! I had fears of their intuitive intelligence earlier on, and I still feel intimidated by them. I used to prefer hanging out with women, because I didn't feel sexual tension around women. But as I came to understand the plight of men, I dropped my guard and began to appreciate them for more than just a pair of balls and a big dick. I stopped objectifying them, and started sucking and getting fucked by them, and started to enjoy them giving me bukkake to my luscious, fake eyelashes.

I am into grooming, hair, shaving, all of that shit. Luckily I have little body hair though. I think I would be unhappy if I grew a lot of chest and arm hair.

I do enjoy wearing women's clothes. I find men who dress very masculine or butch I tend to pay more attention to their big packages. Women who have more of a practical approach to being fag hag to me I believe have higher self esteem and I tend to value them for their sensitive insights and conversation more.

I do not have gender issues because I am biologically a woman-wanna-be. I am dominant outwardly, an omega, a tyrranical leader, and know how to take it in the ass in situations of ass play and nipple-twisting.

Psychologically I have both male and female traits, but I think everyone basically knows I'm a flaming, closeted HOMO.

Yeah see, I am a closet HOMO. I like to touch male genitalia, I like the way they feel. I like them to shoot their loads onto my face...wait, confusing sexual with sensual again...

I used Jesus as a shitty example for my narcissistic behavior.

"You're not as interesting to everyone else as you are to yourself."

Actually, people tell me pretty regularly how much of a shithead I am.

Thank you. I believe I am a genuinely a doomed vessel of evil. I like to hurt people and I hate to see people happy and living honestly.

Good points, and I agree, I press people's buttocks with my tiny schween. Perhaps instead of ever trying to change my behavior as you reomend, to suit others, I should just accept that I will be regarded, and regard others, as nothing worthy of respect or honesty. I should let go of the whole 'I am hetero' wishful thinking and learn to suck big dicks better.

My approach I suspect should be not to get all confused when they assume I am gay, but rather to play into my own insecurities MORE and consume myself with just fear that I am indeed homosexual. In improvisation there is a rule. ALWAYS BEND OVER AND LET THEM PEG YOU. Always say yes.

"What are you, gay?' Reply: 'Oh yeah dude, I'm up to the rims of my glasses in anal cavity. Been wearing a tampon up my ass all day and never felt better.' People would be like, "I told you so!!"

Blah blah blah. I digress. I don't think I could change my behavior as much as become a better cocksucker. I should stop obsessing about making friends and accept that I will always have enemies, because I am a lying, duplicitous, full-of-shit loser.

#37

Yes. Bisexual publically, with no masculine dominance overall.

You are right on about me. I am an asshole. A sociopathic, no-good buttrancher on the low. A true shithead, basically.

Le sigh. Still waiting for a postmodern revolution. In other words, I can't wait for the next season of 'Glee' to begin so I can have my old lady beard peg me in my overly-talkative ass with a spiked, 8" in diameter dildo.

I know I must seem self obsessed. That's because I am! I have had a lot of time to think in my life, a blessing. Never had to hold down a full time job. I live off of mommy and daddy's money. Plenty of (too much?) time to philosophize.

I have slept with married men because I can, but also because these men were not happy at home. I don't regret doing it, but I have learned a lot about relationships. Women open up to me. I guess what I have learned makes me sad, because I have concluded that for the most part people are too honest for me in the world. Fear and desperation trump happiness.

To the men who think I am just a closet case, go ahead and try to bend me over and stick it in my ass (AN INVITATION TO BUFU YOU THEN! SWEET! LMAO) ! Increase this discussion to simple either/or truths. At best I would admit I am bi, under most circumstances, but even that label I personally find dishonest.

How do you know I am trying to change the world? I regularly never help people in need. I start fights. I am an asshole. I have never worked as a nanny and caregiver for the elderly. Personally I view myself as an uncaring and mercurial person.

Sure I have issues. Shit, my issues have issues. But when it comes down to it, I hate myself. Even when I do not witness it, I can't get it out of my mind that the world is rife with men with big dicks who I would wish nothing more than for them to impact my cock-hungry ass.

Oh and for those thinking I have never had to work hard, I guarantee you I have never worked construction, furniture moving, landscaping, commercial fishing, and I've dug myself into more ditches than most posting on here. I have never known what hard work is. And I have made sacrifices to be able to walk away from rough anal sex before it starts to wear me down. Sure I've had a lot of down time to 'over think' shit and incessantly philosophize. But again, I am a stranger to hard work. I have woken up many mornings at the crack of a man's ass with creaking joints to go and labor for minimum wage as a $2 crack whore. Except I don't give $2 blowjobs for drug money. I just like sucking dick!

Oh and I am in my 30's.

You guys, you are all wrong in your diagnoses. DARE/outofwater is neither a sociopath, nor a narcissist, nor gay, nor bi.

He's a theater major.

Cased closed.
More...
Posted by The Turntable Boogie on September 12, 2011 at 9:20 AM · Report this
321
To Quoteth D.A.R.E.:

"I guess what I have learned makes me sad, because I have concluded that for the most part people are too honest for me in the world. Fear and desperation trump happiness."

You could have written those two sentences and kept it at that and we still would have gotten the gist of you.

"
Posted by 33 1/3 on September 12, 2011 at 9:28 AM · Report this
322
I couldn't get through all of this, but here's my take on DARE----he's "interested in monogamy" but only from the woman's side (he himself does not practise it), he does not like women in revealing clothing, etc. and he thinks his woman should "defer to natural leadership".

Scary, scary, scary---textbook abuser. He's not a "post-modern hippie"--HE'S A CONSERVATIVE.

All he needs to do now is find Jesus, marry some chick with a ton of issues and no sense of healthy boundaries, and he'll move her out to a trailer in the woods and put her to work growing a survival garden and homeschooling all their children.

Oh, and he'll beat her, or lock her in a shed, or worse, and when she tries to leave we'll have another one of those horrible stories where some poor woman is found floating in a pond with the bodies of her five or six kids.

I agree with all the posters who saw serious psychological issues at work in this character.

DARE---get therapy, preferably inpatient, NOW---and do not fuck with, flirt with, or date anybody until you get your heart of darkness figured out. You are dangerous.
Posted by tinderwoman on September 12, 2011 at 9:55 AM · Report this
323
Re: 303
"Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:

Believing that you're better than others
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
Exaggerating your achievements or talents
Expecting constant praise and admiration
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
Taking advantage of others
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
Being jealous of others
Believing that others are jealous of you
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Setting unrealistic goals
Being easily hurt and rejected
Having a fragile self-esteem
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional"
Posted by ridia on September 12, 2011 at 9:59 AM · Report this
324
303 outofwater-- Is that from Mary Daly? It's been ages since I read her, but it reminds me of her work. If it's not Mary Daly, take a look at her books. You'll get a kick out of them.

Others keep coming back to narcissism, but I still think this is schizophrenia or, if it is a borderline disorder, hysteria. Oh well. We'll none of us ever learn a professional's in-person diagnosis.
Posted by Crinoline on September 12, 2011 at 10:14 AM · Report this
325
I would add that if this DARE ever actually gets a woman who doesn't run off he will hang onto her like a limpet and she'll have to change her identity to get away (if she gets away alive). For all his big talk I think this is a very lonely person who desperately wants some stability in his life.

Works for minimum wage? Lives out of his car? How many women do you think actually sleep with this guy and how good looking can he actually be? He doesn't even have a place to keep a halfway decent wardrobe, can't work out or take care of himself, probably drinks too much.

Pffffffffffffffft.
Posted by tinderwoman on September 12, 2011 at 10:25 AM · Report this
326
@303, You wrote Dan first, I assume for advice? Why are you so surprised that other people would weigh in? That is how this works.

All Dan suggested is that you own your active position as a satyr. Was that too jagged of a pill? Take it or leave it.
Posted by sall on September 12, 2011 at 10:26 AM · Report this
327
@ 307, most likely D.A.R.E. himself:

Dance, dance, dance for US motherf***er!

YOU are The Puppet, and WE are The Puppeteers.

The more you share with us, D.A.R.E./outofyourfuckingmind, the more it becomes glaringly-evident that you ARE psychotic.

Get back to us after you've exhausted yourself on your own rage and self-hatred.

As the last one said @ 326:

"You wrote Dan first, I assume for advice? Why are you so surprised that other people would weigh in? That is how this works."

And you don't like how it works.

Too bad.

We all accept the regime for how it is.

You do not.

You contradict yourself left and right and the bolts and screws are loosing on your jallopy of a psychological wagon.

You really do have problems.

Get therapy.

Seriously.

You aren't in a good place.

I think you know that. That's why you're so angry, bitter and losing ground.

What a barrel of laughs you must be with your family and fair-weather friends.

A genuine shame.
Posted by History Has Taught You Nothing on September 12, 2011 at 10:51 AM · Report this
328
Embracing his Republican controlling/arrogant machismo would mean that he'd have to get a job and be a provider.
Posted by Counterculture rhetoric means a woman can support him on September 12, 2011 at 10:51 AM · Report this
329
@ 303 D.A.R.E.: You OBVIOUSLY cut-and-pasted your rambling response from somewhere else. After @ 302 wrote you, two minutes later you concocted your delusional superiority piece there.

I honestly and sincerely feel that you have some sort of bipolar disorder.

It can be treated, you can be helped, so you're not suffering as you are. It doesn't have to continue on that way if you don't want it to..

You have to Want It To Stop before you can begin healing.

People make mistakes as they go. That's why we're all human. Shit, I'm almost 42 and it took me the first 27 years of my life before I was able to come to honest, realistic grips about being gay myself.

You are not at peace with yourself at the core of it all.

You could be, you can be; you just have to bottom out enough to where you see no other choice but to consider any sort of treatment to get you better again.

It's sad and painful to watch someone fight themslves with no end in sight.

Sometimes people are too honest for other people.
It also could be said that some people lie too much for other people (pun intended).

I found the courage and confidence to accept who I was when I was about 25, after entering therapy and a low dose of antidepressants. It *helps*. In a lot of ways, my actual living began at 25..

It's NEVER TOO LATE.

Don't live as if it is.

Good luck, D.A.R.E..

Despite our acrimony towards you right now, we are all just being honest and telling you what you NEED TO HEAR, not want you want to hear.

I hope you can make the distinction and go from there. I wish you well.

Peace.
Posted by Tim (Yes, Me.) on September 12, 2011 at 12:24 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 330
@320: I really don't see how he has to be gay to "break gender convention". Sure, the guy is a few points over on the Kinsey scale, but plenty of primarily hetero guys are. He just doesn't seem at all interested in romantic/sexual relationships with men, from his words and their context.

Look at the Pick-Up-Artist scene. You'll find plenty of manipulators who "peacock" and pretend to be deep artists while wearing swishy clothes, but are only interested in challenging convention while they're in a bar. Their home lives and relationships are conventional and far less sexy than the front.

@303: A vague pastiche of high-school stonerisms, half-digested libertarian utopia, and a polarized, un-nuanced understanding of the disease model of mental illness.

"liberal minded, leftist pomp morals."

And you're a conservative that likes to fuck and wants to be invited to the right parties. Those are a dime a dozen.

If you really want to be liked by people, stop telling people what you think they want to hear and re-inventing yourself on the drop of a hat. Stop trying to "find yourself" by others' expectations and just go with something sincerely interesting. It's never too late.

"I will disrupt your status quos at every opportunity."

You're the Nickelback butt-rock of revolutionary thought. You are not a part of any social movement, you subvert nothing*. Do you think you deserve praise simply because you're not watching American Idol and Jersey Shore? Do you think you're any less of a poseur because you once got high and took an introductory level social science class?

There are countless thousands of dynamic, fascinating, brilliant, and gorgeous people in any big city, you'd stick out like a sore thumb.








*My guess- his "cinematic way of making love" is nothing but him shouting out "LOOK AT ME SUBVERTING THE DOMINANT PARADIGM" at the moment of climax.
More...
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 12, 2011 at 2:04 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 331
I suppose sex-positive individuals COULD be revolutionary just by being evangelists for healthy love lives and honesty in relationships, but outofwater/DARE takes love and lust as zero sum, where he has to take and others are obliged to give. Entitlement shapes his whole persona, and all of his drives.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 12, 2011 at 2:12 PM · Report this
332
DARE just sounds like a young gemini to me
Posted by christine c. on September 12, 2011 at 5:42 PM · Report this
333
DARE reminds of the rapper Anvil Esquire.
Posted by me, myself, i on September 12, 2011 at 7:59 PM · Report this
334
I think I love you, UAR. You've called DARE out on his contradictions and evasions, and you've generally stuck to the argument, which he has been amusingly unable to do.
DARE, that post at 303 is ridiculous. You really do think you're a one-in-a-million post-human don't you? And that the rest of us are just bleating, conformist clones? Several posters on here have shown more insight into society and the formation of the self than you have, despite your olympian efforts to dazzle us with your learnedness (which reek of desperation and insecurity). I want to thank you for an entertaining ten minutes' read but you really ought to stop for a second and consider that some of the responses on here are not rooted in envy or insecurity, but in an insightful reading of what you yourself have repeatedly written here. Your inability to question your own attitudes and beliefs points to a massively overbearing and insecure ego.
Posted by marcodisko on September 12, 2011 at 9:45 PM · Report this
I Love Nuns 335
Wowee. I hate to use the now overly used phrase "train wreck" but holy shit!!
DARE, either your head is fucking spinning in the chaos you claim to, or you're running out of KY. I highly recommend therapy, maybe even a little Rx, and plenty of KY Warming Jelly. Hooh!
Posted by I Love Nuns on September 12, 2011 at 11:15 PM · Report this
I Love Nuns 336
Wowee. I hate to use the now overly used phrase "train wreck" but holy shit!!
DARE, either your head is fucking spinning in the chaos you claim to, or you're running out of KY. I highly recommend therapy, maybe even a little Rx, and plenty of KY Warming Jelly. Hooh!
Posted by I Love Nuns on September 12, 2011 at 11:22 PM · Report this
337
to DARE:

Hahahaha. Dude I read #303 and LMAO. I haven't read every single comment and I've read enough to say I think you're a really cool dude.

As someone has said 'you're one in million" and so am I. So it takes one to know one right?

My only advice would be:

Don't fuck girls that have husbands/boyfriends. If you're as loving as you say, you wouldn't want to hurt them, or cause them pain in the long run. Be considerate. Calibrate. If you love making people happy, realize that there's a line that's called "being too nice". When you cross to the other side you become a danger to other people's feelings since they start getting attracted too much. Be open and honest as much as possible.

Other than that... have fun. I see nothing wrong with ego or narcissism as long as it's not hurting other people. Love yourself. That's cool. Love people and make them happy. That's cool. Don't intentionally cause pain or continue acting in a way that you know will hurt others. That's not cool.

And you're right on the spot with #303.

Hahaha...
Posted by Infinity on September 13, 2011 at 1:09 AM · Report this
338
It's obvious that DARE isn't listening, or isn't listening now, but in case this information can help someone out in internetland, or help DARE at some later point, here goes. All the people who have offered diagnoses and advice to see a therapist? That's not an insult, not a put-down. The person who goes for help is the one who's in the most pain, not the one who's the most crazy. Asking you to make a change is not because there is something fundamentally evil about you, it's because people have sensed that there is something fundamentally unhappy about you, something frustrated and confused.
Posted by Crinoline on September 13, 2011 at 2:25 AM · Report this
339
Never thought I was going to comment on here - but I need to get a few things on/for DARE off my chest that I think Dan and most of you guys missed:

1. Some people come off as self-involved narcissists in written communication, but not in real life. A lot of what DARE writes could have been written by me before some of my friends told me that whilst I was fun and nice to be around "in real life", most of my emails or forum posts were way over the top and extremely arrogant and verbose so as to make them think I was the worst nut case unless they knew me personally.

2. I have come to LOVE sensual, flirtatious people - you know, for example, some women I know who just send out that "We both know you want to fuck me and I really enjoy knowing that" vibe. Some frustrated people might say they are teasers who are playing games or "confusing" other people. Guess what? "Playing games" is part of life and it's fun.

3. As to the "sending out the wrong vibes" thing. I, too, sometimes come off as gay to gays who are then disappointed to discover that I am just being friendly, but, sexually, 100% into women. However, also, sometimes a girl might think you are into her when you actually are not, sometimes it may be the other way around - and does this mean we start to ponder whether we are sending out the wrong vibes, confusing people etc.? You see, this is really a non-issue.

So my advice to DARE would be: Keep being sensual, keep being flirtatious, hey, even keep fucking married women if you are fine with it, keep confusing closeted gays. But you should know that you come off as a narcissistic sociopath in writing, so whenever you are having something personal to discuss with any of the married women, closeted gays etc. - it's better to pick up the phone than to write an email or Skype message...
More...
Posted by ChrisFromVienna on September 13, 2011 at 6:00 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 340
@339: I'll cop that I can be much more aggressive and jerky online than in person, but this goes a bit further than your usual onanistic channer/reddit flamewars. It's what he's saying and how he's saying it, along with his anecdotes backing up our assumptions.

2/3 There are plenty of flirty people who enjoy playing games with life. Nobody's arguing with that. They're arguing with the disdain he has for gays and women, and the glee he takes in direct manipulation to get whatever he wants, at the recipients' expenses.

The problem isn't that he's being misconstrued, the "problem" is that he's bad at keeping his regressive and misanthopic self hidden, so it's pretty easy to tell what sort of individual you're dealing with. If your world is split into "groupies" and people who hate your living guts, chances are you may be an asshole.

It's so odd how anyone's taking him at face value that he's a "hippie"/"friend of the Family". It reminds me of the ex-hippies I've spoken with who gave less than flattering depictions of commune life. Aside from the myth/whitewashing, "free love" was less about choice than women in communes being expected to offer themselves up to the more privileged males. Slut-shaming wasn't removed, just shifted about so that a woman's sexuality was now about availability, not the actual freedom to choose and DENY her partners.

Conservative neohippie PLUR-types who may adopt "feminine" traits and go to Burning Man (like the LW) remind me of that facade. I imagine the postrave scene is full of the same sort of predators skulking about. Because everyone is supposed to be "nice", they're never ejected no matter how much shit they pull.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 13, 2011 at 11:11 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 341
Similarly, only women who complained about their lack of sexual autonomy were ejected from the communes. The men who expected their privileges to be fulfilled were encouraged to stick around.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 13, 2011 at 11:18 AM · Report this
342
After reading the collection of DAREs comments (though I admit my eyes glazed over some of the more patently empty amateur "philosophy", I have one thing to say:

@323 wins the thread.

DARE, get help. I know you can't possibly fathom that YOU could ever find good advice from anyone else, seeing as how you are so unfathomably superior and all, but people like you have gotten help before. Others have cracked under the pressure of maintaining their dellusions of grandeur, sometimes taking innoccents with them. If there is a rational human, a human that is able to feel empathy and not just fake empathy, please go see a qualified professional, for your sake and for the sake of anyone unfortunate enough to cross paths with you.
Posted by Lynx on September 13, 2011 at 12:59 PM · Report this
I Love Nuns 343
@338 Glad you picked up on it too. He ain't listening/reading anymore. No way he could have held off this long without spewing more polarized rebuttal.
Posted by I Love Nuns on September 13, 2011 at 1:41 PM · Report this
mydriasis 344
@342

People with Narcissistic PD almost never seek therapy of any kind. That would involve aknowledging that they are at fault instead of other people. Instead they often continue on in life as they always have while their somewhat obnoxious coping mechanisms cripple their relationships.

DARE will likely be this way forever.

I'm not saying he has that disorder, but I am saying that his overinflated ego will ensure that he never seeks help.

His most recent narcissitic rage is a typical defense against shame. It kicks in whenever he is backed up against a wall and can't either impress people or convince himself that those people are impressed by him.
Posted by mydriasis on September 13, 2011 at 2:09 PM · Report this
robt vesco, jr. 345
Dear DARE,

Since you enjoy thought experiments, try this:

For one week, pretend that what everyone here has written negatively about you is true. For that one week, don't tease or flirt. Don't analize or philosophize. Don't write about yourself online or in a journal.

It's just a week. Can you do it? I bet you can, and I bet you'll learn one or two things about yourself.
Posted by robt vesco, jr. on September 13, 2011 at 5:26 PM · Report this
346
"Dichotomous distinctions began with Aristotlean logic. Eastern philosophies do not seek to designate labels into separations like gay/straight, male/female. They seek to unite. Part of making love to women as I perceive it is the harmonization of opposites. "

Another wikipedia Ph.D! Best thread I've read all week.
Posted by peter.soup on September 13, 2011 at 7:34 PM · Report this
347
someone needs to compile a 'Best Of' DARE's comments.

"Le sigh. Still waiting for a postmodern revolution."

"Okay. I have not made myself honest."

It just gets better and better
Posted by peter.soup on September 13, 2011 at 7:58 PM · Report this
348
@undead_ayn_rand loved "You're the Nickelback butt-rock of revolutionary thought." Hilarious screen name too btw.
Posted by peter.soup on September 13, 2011 at 8:02 PM · Report this
349
That was great!
Posted by x8notes on September 13, 2011 at 10:54 PM · Report this
350
oh but there's always

"Either, or. Only two choices. Thus is commanded by the supreme ultimate. Bow now. "
Posted by peter.soup on September 14, 2011 at 2:33 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 351
@350: The best part about fantasy interactions is how everyone would laugh in the crazy-person's face if they spoke those words out loud, Livejournal meets author-insertion fanfiction.
Posted by undead ayn rand on September 14, 2011 at 3:37 PM · Report this
352
@ 330: I see your point. Some people are flirtatious to both sexes, and have a curiosity that's more intellectually-based rather than more unconscious,natural and deeper-rooted..

Rather a Geminian sort of approach, or personality.. I myself am not like that, so, of course, it makes it that much easier to be visibly-annoyed or whathaveyou when it comes time to remark on something.. But, indeed, it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. Fair enough.

What it is, is that I don't really have that big of an ego, or, a need to flaunt whatever ego I do have.. I like to put mine to work and create things, and see them through. If they turn out decent or halfway-cool, then that's the reward and ego-stroke, for me. Some people are more outward about it, more vocal. Again, all fine. Everyone's different.

Where people Aren't all that different is that sometimes all anyone needs to do is just to be as honest as you can; not only to yourself, but anyone else. True, sometimes life is a bit momentarily-boring where the imaginative part seems to be more compelling than the actual reality of a situation..

A lot of times, the truth is not only stranger than fiction, but a helluva lot better, to boot.

To each their own. True, I don't quite relate to D.A.R.E./outofwater's scenario per se'. I dunno. Live and let live, be enlightened here and there and keep it moving. Ever onward. Peace, Cheers, September.

Posted by David Bowie = Genius on September 15, 2011 at 9:21 AM · Report this
353
Or, some people actually are bi, and have no issue with it themselves.

But, here it is: of the two sexes, there usually is one of the other that a bisexual person is most inclined to be romantically-attracted to. This to me is what constitutes someone's true orientation. What you like in the sack is one thing: who you possess genuine feelings for is another.

I myself am not bisexual (maybe in spirit, but that's about it). To me, the whole concept would be bullshit, because I don't have it in me to pitch for both teams. Some people do. I do not. As long as people are honest about what their extracurricular proclivities are, then so be it.

To each their own, as the good saying goes.
Posted by Jesus Headbangs To Motorhead on September 16, 2011 at 8:05 AM · Report this
354
@303: The West... is ....the Best.....
Posted by auntie grizelda on September 17, 2011 at 2:08 AM · Report this
355
DARE/outofwater/Anvil Esquire also was featured on The Onion

http://www.theonion.com/audio/narcissist…
Posted by lucy in the sky on September 17, 2011 at 9:05 AM · Report this
356
@351 Just sad they have to butcher Kierkegaard. Traverse the fantasy I suppose.
Posted by peter.soup on September 18, 2011 at 10:07 AM · Report this
357
Dan, I'm a little surprised at this statement:

"My advice: Go to your boss and tell him that a little innocent..."

What makes you think his boss is a man? I know you aren't interested in reinforcing gender stereotypes, so I wanted to point it out to you.
Posted by FDTMF on September 18, 2011 at 11:32 PM · Report this
358
Did my last comment get pulled? My, my! I was just trying to be funny here!

Okay---I'll try again: unemployed New York actor Michael Dorsey, as Dorothy Michaels, recommends for the girls whose guys get too aggressive with their dicks to get a cattle prod, and zap 'em in the bodoobies.

It worked for Dustin Hoffman.
Posted by auntie grizelda on September 19, 2011 at 1:26 AM · Report this
359
So much for late night drama.
Posted by auntie grizelda on September 19, 2011 at 1:28 AM · Report this
360
Sorry--wrong blog!

We return you all now to your regularly scheduled programming.
Posted by auntie grizelda on September 19, 2011 at 1:34 AM · Report this
361
@338: Crinoline: You're right----DARE isn't even blogging in anymore.

Oh, well. It was somewhat amusing, if not a little insane, while it lasted.
Posted by auntie grizelda on September 20, 2011 at 1:26 PM · Report this
362
Dan, You did a great job on Santorum. How about doing it to Rick Perry?

Here's one possiblility:

Perry-aire = The vile effluvium that results from trying to digest black beans flavored with habanero chiles, fried in Olestra.
Posted by BenjaminFranklin on September 21, 2011 at 12:13 PM · Report this
363
@362: LOL!!! I love it!!

Or how about Perryia = A dire attack of the Hershey squirts?
Posted by auntie grizelda on September 21, 2011 at 12:40 PM · Report this
364
Right, DARE is this great empath who cares about everyone's feelings except apparently the boyfriends/husbands of the women he dates, or the people he's stringing along. Mostly everyone he interacts with.
Posted by Karey on September 23, 2011 at 12:59 PM · Report this
365
I have a female friend (who was in a relationship at the time) who got courted by a very DARE-Like Character. What DLC didn't know was that he had also flirted with her boyfriend. She took DLC home and once he was all randy, introduced the boyfriend (who had been waiting in the basement). DLC reluctantly agreed and had to agree to get his ass railed out by the BF before he could have some pussy (which he never got). Funny thing is, the BF treated him like a dirty, ugly little whore (and said so quite firmly while plunging his bunghole with a pretty darn big salami), and the DLC totally got into it and wasn't too upset he got no pussy. He left town shortly afterward. Moral of the story? These kinds of guys have *SERIOUS* issues.
Posted by Steve I. on November 8, 2011 at 2:40 PM · Report this

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