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A guy started chatting me up at a party. After a few minutes, he peered closely at my ears. "Are those handcuff earrings?" (It was the '80s, okay? Shut up.) When I confirmed that they were, and no, I wasn't just wearing them as a fashion statement, he shook his head reproachfully. "That kinky shit—don't you know that'll ruin you for regular sex?" I laughed. But in a way, he was right. Once you're used to kinky sex, it's difficult to have strictly regular, vanilla sex. I was reminded of that recently, because I tried.
Why was I having vanilla sex? Well, I went through a phase of wanting to meet people from outside the kink community who didn't know me as "Mistress Matisse." I just wondered what it would be like to date without the backstory, as it were.
Stranger Personals
I went out with several pleasant, good-looking guys from a social-networking site. I told them all, "I'm pretty kinky." They all replied, "That's cool." But the sex was all pretty unkinky—and not terribly successful. I have skills and confidence in bed, but I came away from those encounters thinking, "I do not understand how to be sexual like this."
Now, one can debate endlessly about what qualifies as kinky sex. But I've figured out exactly what makes sex vanilla. The defining feature of vanilla sex is this: You communicate about it using only mental telepathy. Or so I'm forced to assume, because nonkinky people don't talk about fucking. Not before they fuck, and definitely not while they're fucking. With every kinky person I've ever dated—which is a lot—there was some conversation about "So, what are you into?" And during kinky sex, it's normal to give overt instructions: "Lick me there. Higher—yeah, like that!" Or ask questions: "Is that good? Faster or slower?"
So the no-talking thing completely threw me. I've slept with men who spoke no English whatsoever, and it felt not unlike that. But at least those guys knew we were working with a handicap. The vanilla guys all seemed to assume there was a default pattern of how sex should happen, and discussion was neither necessary nor desirable. I was consciously trying to do as the Romans do, so when my pre-sex conversational forays didn't fly, I didn't push it.
But if I ever had default settings for sex, they're gone. At a certain point, I decided, "To hell with it," and I just started talking. Some of the vanilla guys proved open to direction, but initially, they all acted startled—and not particularly pleased—by my deviation from standard operating procedure. They even seemed uneasy about what I thought was pretty-basic porn talk. And one of them remarked, "You move too much."
Apparently, that kinky shit made me forget I'm supposed to lie
still and be quiet. If that's the regular sex I'm ruined for, then
color me happily spoiled. 
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2
This seriously broadens the idea of what's considered kinky - never thought of myself that way but man, I do not lie still and be quiet. That's just creepy. He should do a service for women and buy a doll.
3
I'm pretty vanilla, and I had a guy once criticize the way I breathed when I came. I'm guessing it's because I was the first girl he'd been with who gave him specific instructions on how to make me come and had the expectation that he'd follow them.
Surely you know they're not all duds out there, Mistress. Just most of 'em.
Surely you know they're not all duds out there, Mistress. Just most of 'em.
4
My shrink (who is actually quite cool) had some kind of weird theory that pre- and post-scene negotiation/debriefing meant I was lacking spontaneity, romance, something. (This came up because I told her a story not unlike the one above, of dating a "normal person" who seemed disconcerted by the basic, "So, what do you like?" conversation.) I think I seemed shocked enough at this notion that she rethought her prejudices.
5
You use "vanilla" to describe lack of kink, and you define vanilla as sex without communication.
While kinky people probably do communicate more about sex than less kinky people, defining vanilla sex as sex without communication is inaccurate. A guy could say: "I want you to lie still while I do you missionary-style," and the woman could respond: "Great. That's what I like. I'm sure glad we communicated about this." This is likely an uncommon scenario, but it, or its equivalent, has occurred; non-kinky sex which involved communication. Similarly, there has probably been plenty of kinky sex which did not involve communication.
We don't need to "debate endlessly" about what kinky means, but it would be helpful to hear how you define kink, as it is central to this topic.
While kinky people probably do communicate more about sex than less kinky people, defining vanilla sex as sex without communication is inaccurate. A guy could say: "I want you to lie still while I do you missionary-style," and the woman could respond: "Great. That's what I like. I'm sure glad we communicated about this." This is likely an uncommon scenario, but it, or its equivalent, has occurred; non-kinky sex which involved communication. Similarly, there has probably been plenty of kinky sex which did not involve communication.
We don't need to "debate endlessly" about what kinky means, but it would be helpful to hear how you define kink, as it is central to this topic.
6
@kungfujew, could you take this a LITTLE more seriously please? I think you're being far too lighthearted about what is obviously a SERIOUS scholarly work, not just casual entertainment!
7
I have always considered talking (especially talking dirty) as foreplay and a way to keep the passion going during the deed. And I consider myself only mildly kinky. Silence?? And holding still??? Sounds AWFUL and BORING!!!! A vibrator would be more fun than that.
8
Touche, Diva. I deserve that based on the tone of my writing. I can't help it. But I really am curious how MM defines kink and I think simply conflating lack of communication with lack of kink is a bit of a cop-out. Is MM really "ruined" for regular sex? We don't know.
I don't look at what MM does as "just casual entertainment," although she is pretty entertaining. I actually think she is making important social commentary.
I don't look at what MM does as "just casual entertainment," although she is pretty entertaining. I actually think she is making important social commentary.
10
@9. I dont know if you've noticed, but Mormons are having alot of sex.
This is a great column though. And a great observation. Silence would lead to fears of trying new things for fear of it not being ok. And silence probably also means that there is some shame there and there is not room for shame in kink (unless of course you want to be shamed). Anyhow. I like it.
This is a great column though. And a great observation. Silence would lead to fears of trying new things for fear of it not being ok. And silence probably also means that there is some shame there and there is not room for shame in kink (unless of course you want to be shamed). Anyhow. I like it.
11
I'd agree that pure "vanilla" people are probably less articulate, as a group, about what they need/want sexually than "kinky" people, defining both terms as broadly as possible.
But, reality check ... Mr. "You Move Too Much" was just flat-out controlling, narcissistic, and rude. That would have definitely been a "you know, I guess this isn't working for you and this *definitely* isn't working for me either, nice to meet you, I'm leaving now" moment for me.
Were these men from a social networking site dedicated to vanilla NSA/hook-ups? I tried a large site like that, very briefly, and had similar bad experiences ... basic skills/communication deficits across the board. Won't be doing that again.
But, reality check ... Mr. "You Move Too Much" was just flat-out controlling, narcissistic, and rude. That would have definitely been a "you know, I guess this isn't working for you and this *definitely* isn't working for me either, nice to meet you, I'm leaving now" moment for me.
Were these men from a social networking site dedicated to vanilla NSA/hook-ups? I tried a large site like that, very briefly, and had similar bad experiences ... basic skills/communication deficits across the board. Won't be doing that again.
12
Didnt I read somewhere that sex is 90% mental? If that is the case then WTF! No talking during sex is a definite turn off for me. It doesnt have to be dirty talk but for me at least communication is very stimulating as well as the various noises that both people make. I have in fact had bad experiences where my partner did not like to verbalize at all. The not moving so much part is a huge debate. There are a myriad of factors to consider there. Thanks for the column MM.
13
I think the problem here is not that vanilla sex is bad, but that MM was having bad vanilla sex. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd chalk it up to bad lovers, and ten to one they were guys who are full of themselves - either popular and know it, or good looking and know it, but those types generally suck in bed - it's like they expect the woman to come just from being in the same room with them. I'm sure the same type of girl is the same way, I just wouldn't know.
14
Well, something that occurs to me while reading this:
The non-kinky guys I know tend to have a very narrow experience and definition of how to be sexual.
But then most guys I know have a very narrow experience and definition of relationships. They communicate as little in bed as out of bed when it comes to the things that say something about them as well as what concerns their partners.
That is a huge turn-off, stalls any kind of development and is ultimately boring. No wonder you end up watching tv together instead of having sex after some time. That much more exciting.
Kinky people can be better communicators, I feel, although not all of them are, as well.
The non-kinky guys I know tend to have a very narrow experience and definition of how to be sexual.
But then most guys I know have a very narrow experience and definition of relationships. They communicate as little in bed as out of bed when it comes to the things that say something about them as well as what concerns their partners.
That is a huge turn-off, stalls any kind of development and is ultimately boring. No wonder you end up watching tv together instead of having sex after some time. That much more exciting.
Kinky people can be better communicators, I feel, although not all of them are, as well.
15
The worst complaints I've gotten are from guys who thought I should be quieter. I often scream/sing loudly when I come. Many flings have ended because of some guy shushing me.
A: If I'm going off like that, then I'm getting off. You succeeded. Enjoy it!
B: It's my apartment. Don't tell me how to screw.
A: If I'm going off like that, then I'm getting off. You succeeded. Enjoy it!
B: It's my apartment. Don't tell me how to screw.
16
@13, I agree, I think MM encountered some of the too-numerous bad lovers out there. These guys are the equivalent of the one-true-way a$$holes in the kink community..they have a way they do it, and they don't care to be challenged. But they aren't representative of the good vanilla lovers, and it's not accurate to say that all vanilla lovers are non-communicative. That's definitely not me, and not my experience. I think the defining difference is that vanilla sex is about 2 people, their bodies, and erotic pleasure. If you add in intense sensation (pain), role play, toys, or dominance/control play, you're tiptoeing into kink. Sorry you met some losers, MM.
17
Yeah, wow. I've never been with anything other then men who would consider themselves pretty vanilla, but they've all been very open to suggestion, interested in talking about it before/after, and generally pleased when I move around lots. I guess that makes us kinky!
18
Have you considered the possibility that some people enjoy sex in its simplest form? You write as though everyone needs to 'explore boundaries' in order to enjoy sex with their partner. In my opinion, one of the best things about sex IS the nonverbal communication (not non-vocal).
Also, perhaps you ruined it for the guys you were with. You make it sound as if the whole exercise was just about pleasing you. Look, you had a bad time with a few guys, but don't pretend they didn't have a bad time with you. As a matter of fact, I can imagine their retelling of the scenario going something like - "I was with this girl who wouldn't stop flapping her lips and it really took me out of the mood."
It sucks the two of you didn't align, but pretending they failed you is just arrogant and solipsistic. The two of you failed eachother, which makes you a bad lover too.
I'm as big a fan of 'kink' as anyone, but you should remember that your kink is another person's turn-off. And scolding them after the fact - as if they failed you - is petty.
Admit it, you failed to turn someone on in bed. Plain and simple.
Also, perhaps you ruined it for the guys you were with. You make it sound as if the whole exercise was just about pleasing you. Look, you had a bad time with a few guys, but don't pretend they didn't have a bad time with you. As a matter of fact, I can imagine their retelling of the scenario going something like - "I was with this girl who wouldn't stop flapping her lips and it really took me out of the mood."
It sucks the two of you didn't align, but pretending they failed you is just arrogant and solipsistic. The two of you failed eachother, which makes you a bad lover too.
I'm as big a fan of 'kink' as anyone, but you should remember that your kink is another person's turn-off. And scolding them after the fact - as if they failed you - is petty.
Admit it, you failed to turn someone on in bed. Plain and simple.
19
Great column and I agree wholeheartedly. "you move too much" IS bad, but not AS bad as the "you don't taste good" I've gotten from vanilla lovers....
20
See, this is why I believe in moderation. I have a long list of things I've done that I would love to do again (threesomes, torturing my partner with ice cubes, light bondage, pegging) that I haven't done in a while because I haven't had the right partners. I loved tying up my last serious boyfriend, but there was a period of a month or so that we were doing it almost every time we had sex and it got boring after a while. So we stopped for a few months, switched to other things, and when we decided to get the scarves out again, it was that much hotter.
One of my current lovers is into all of those things, and I'm very much looking forward to a return trip down kink highway.
Yeah, there were a few times when I was disappointed to learn the dude wasn't into pegging or something, but we still had good sex.
And for the record, I've had more than a few men tell me that I move too much. One guy even thanked me for participating because, as he said, who wants to fuck a dead fish? He was the first guy who really manhandled me, which was just as hot as the other kinky shit I like. He's coming to visit me next week, and since him, I've had more than a few lovers, but only one other who really knew how to manhandle a woman who likes to be manhandled. Yummy. :D)
One of my current lovers is into all of those things, and I'm very much looking forward to a return trip down kink highway.
Yeah, there were a few times when I was disappointed to learn the dude wasn't into pegging or something, but we still had good sex.
And for the record, I've had more than a few men tell me that I move too much. One guy even thanked me for participating because, as he said, who wants to fuck a dead fish? He was the first guy who really manhandled me, which was just as hot as the other kinky shit I like. He's coming to visit me next week, and since him, I've had more than a few lovers, but only one other who really knew how to manhandle a woman who likes to be manhandled. Yummy. :D)
21
This has totally been my experience. I'm in college, just out of a kinky relationship, and I've found I can't hook up - the guys are too quiet, I don't know what's working and what's not. Hello, can you give me some feedback, please? And even if it's good, a girl can on chill out in missionary for so long, especially if there's no dirty talk.
22
I've had more than my fair (or desired) share of vanilla sex and the mental telepathy line strikes me as basically accurate. It's not just that you don't talk about the sex, it's the lack of specificity. Vanilla sex guy trying to branch out will say something like "can I try something?" and think that responding "like what?" is being a spoilsport because his sexual imagination is limited by the idea that acts are universally pleasurable.
I think there are plenty of people who talk while engaging in vanilla sex, they're just not discussing the menu or the mechanics. Other than to limit it, of course. I think that's what makes MM's definition useful, if not very precise. Vanilla sex is ready to wear, no discussion necessary, you're putting this outfit on and you may or may not like the way it fits. Non-vanilla is tailored. You may only make a few adjustments to the pattern (and still feel quite vanilla for it), but once you've made the effort to communicate your specific desires, you've altered the vanilla template.
I think there are plenty of people who talk while engaging in vanilla sex, they're just not discussing the menu or the mechanics. Other than to limit it, of course. I think that's what makes MM's definition useful, if not very precise. Vanilla sex is ready to wear, no discussion necessary, you're putting this outfit on and you may or may not like the way it fits. Non-vanilla is tailored. You may only make a few adjustments to the pattern (and still feel quite vanilla for it), but once you've made the effort to communicate your specific desires, you've altered the vanilla template.
23
Hmm, I've been doing kink both publicly and privately for a couple of years, and I still enjoy sex that is mostly vanilla - just like to throw in a little hairpulling, choke holding, and other non-prop-requiring stuff. I hear ya on the communication, though. Will never go back to mind-reading.
24
I think Stormblade (# 12) has gotten to what makes this discussion tricky. There is a bit of overlap between what you communicate about sex and the type of sex acts you engage in; the communication can itself be a sexual act.
Is it really kinky to communicate about a sex act which would largely be considered vanilla in the absence of communication? Isn't this communication merely just a means to get what you want and/or enhance the underlying act? I don't think actively kinky people are the only ones getting what they want in bed (although they are probably much more likely to be getting what they want).
I think left wing thought is generally more fair than left wing thought, but I would never define right wing thought as thought completely lacking in fairness, as even right wing thought is occasionally fair.
Getting back to you, MM: Do you enjoy otherwise vanilla acts about which you engage in communication? If the answer is "yes," then you are not really "ruined" for vanilla sex. If the answer is "no," then your tirade about lack of communication, while a valid criticism of the bad sex you had, is really a smokescreen. If the answer is "I don't know," then you need to do a little more research and get back to us.
Is it really kinky to communicate about a sex act which would largely be considered vanilla in the absence of communication? Isn't this communication merely just a means to get what you want and/or enhance the underlying act? I don't think actively kinky people are the only ones getting what they want in bed (although they are probably much more likely to be getting what they want).
I think left wing thought is generally more fair than left wing thought, but I would never define right wing thought as thought completely lacking in fairness, as even right wing thought is occasionally fair.
Getting back to you, MM: Do you enjoy otherwise vanilla acts about which you engage in communication? If the answer is "yes," then you are not really "ruined" for vanilla sex. If the answer is "no," then your tirade about lack of communication, while a valid criticism of the bad sex you had, is really a smokescreen. If the answer is "I don't know," then you need to do a little more research and get back to us.
25
7 nyphomanic midgets, 1 German Shepherd, 3 hampsters and myself are home alone.... being quite.... I hear a distant "Woof".. damnit... now you're kinky!.. hush little pup, people will think we're pervs...
26
My wife and I have had vanilla sex for 10 years now. Nothing against Kink at all but that hasn't been our gig. And NO vanilla doesn't equal quiet still.
We started with little talk but a lot screaming and moving (screwing like teenagers right?) and led to now quite a bit more of during-sex-direction, screaming and moving. Although I do find the pics of the after effect that the knots have been unkinked are great erotica... I'm glad we don't have to lay out a scenario or tether certain body parts to get off VERY liberating. That is what you are missing... FREEDOM! Now why wasn't it so for you... Seriously a social networking site? I actually think this might be a selection issue. The guys that you were banging I assume were older and may have been in your available pool because all the competent sexual folks had been pulled out. So unless you were cougaring it (which would enter in its own bias) you were just doomed from the start... And that is confirmed in that those tools were all talk about kink.
We started with little talk but a lot screaming and moving (screwing like teenagers right?) and led to now quite a bit more of during-sex-direction, screaming and moving. Although I do find the pics of the after effect that the knots have been unkinked are great erotica... I'm glad we don't have to lay out a scenario or tether certain body parts to get off VERY liberating. That is what you are missing... FREEDOM! Now why wasn't it so for you... Seriously a social networking site? I actually think this might be a selection issue. The guys that you were banging I assume were older and may have been in your available pool because all the competent sexual folks had been pulled out. So unless you were cougaring it (which would enter in its own bias) you were just doomed from the start... And that is confirmed in that those tools were all talk about kink.
27
A few thoughts-if these were casual fucks, lots of guys see no need to pay attention the woman involved. In kink, even casual fucks aren't quite so casual. A guy looking for NSA sex online is looking for a quickie where he gets to orgasm. He really would do better with a few toys, but those reek of social inadequacy.
If these were encounters with some emotional investment, then remember that the sublime goal of "romantic" sexual encounters is the perfect mind meld-no need to talk at all, just the telepathic unity that means true luv has arrived. If you need to talk or ask, then obviously you aren't with your soul mate who will know those things before you have to mention them.
You could try having "vanilla" sex with Max or Monk and see if the results differ.
If these were encounters with some emotional investment, then remember that the sublime goal of "romantic" sexual encounters is the perfect mind meld-no need to talk at all, just the telepathic unity that means true luv has arrived. If you need to talk or ask, then obviously you aren't with your soul mate who will know those things before you have to mention them.
You could try having "vanilla" sex with Max or Monk and see if the results differ.
28
if I had a guy tell me to lay still I'd think he was an asshole, but it would also turn my crank. I'd try to get him to do me while he thought I was asleep.
29
Everyone's different. The best orgasms I've ever had were ones where all I could do was gasp for breath, much less speak.
30
I'm with Control Tower on this - I don't understand how people can be sexual without talking about it or at least communicating their needs in some way...isn't that half the fun? And I'm not just talking about discussing safe-words and serocompatibility here. I mean, it's tricky to get any person off, vanilla or not. Some people need a lot of intense sensation while others quiver at just the slightest touch. Either way, I'd like to be notified before I dive in, as it were, because I want to be able to do what they like. I DON'T want to fumble around for fifteen minutes while they lie mute and frustrated. Where's the fun in that?
Vanilla sex has almost always been like that for me: oppressed, repressed, and depressing. It seems like the vanilla belief is that you're actually supposed to settle for crap sex most of the time. That is, until one night, when each of you have had a good day, the kids are asleep, the wine was just right, and you both happen to be smelling like the sky after a hard rain, the sex is somehow magically wonderful. But then? You wake up, you are too ashamed to discuss what has just happened, and you go back to settling for crap sex again for the next couple of years.
I'll take a heated discussion about Whether Safe-Words Are Necessary over that kind of vanilla approach any day. Know why? Because I'm guaranteed that The Safe-Word Debate will always be more sexual, more nuanced, and more enthralling than any "normal" sex I've ever had.
Vanilla sex has almost always been like that for me: oppressed, repressed, and depressing. It seems like the vanilla belief is that you're actually supposed to settle for crap sex most of the time. That is, until one night, when each of you have had a good day, the kids are asleep, the wine was just right, and you both happen to be smelling like the sky after a hard rain, the sex is somehow magically wonderful. But then? You wake up, you are too ashamed to discuss what has just happened, and you go back to settling for crap sex again for the next couple of years.
I'll take a heated discussion about Whether Safe-Words Are Necessary over that kind of vanilla approach any day. Know why? Because I'm guaranteed that The Safe-Word Debate will always be more sexual, more nuanced, and more enthralling than any "normal" sex I've ever had.
31
those guys sounds like jerks. maybe the common factor of the social networking hookup was the problem.
32
Just to throw in my two sense, this is a pretty huge problem with most of the vanilla crowd. I myself am vanilla, have been for decades now, and it's something I'm really only just getting over. The problem starts with the sex education we are given (or rather, not given) when we are just reaching sexual maturity. It's ironic that the one time in my early dating years I asked a girl what she liked, and she just shut up and refused to answer.
So there's this taboo about talking or communicating during sex that gets worse the more we do it. It certainly gets harder to overcome.
The sad thing is that scientists have studied communication and sex, and they found that the more one communicates, the better the sex is. The sad thing is that the studies are also decades old!
My theory is that with non-vanilla sex there is basically a support community and a cultural divide that encourages and fosters open communication. Therefore, the sex is dramatically better.
So Mistress Matisse, when you decide to go to the shallow end of the pool, you need to find partners who meet one more requirement: they need to be open about communicating before, during and after sex. They may be rare, but they're out there. Vanilla can be just as fun as kink, but only if you do it "right."
So there's this taboo about talking or communicating during sex that gets worse the more we do it. It certainly gets harder to overcome.
The sad thing is that scientists have studied communication and sex, and they found that the more one communicates, the better the sex is. The sad thing is that the studies are also decades old!
My theory is that with non-vanilla sex there is basically a support community and a cultural divide that encourages and fosters open communication. Therefore, the sex is dramatically better.
So Mistress Matisse, when you decide to go to the shallow end of the pool, you need to find partners who meet one more requirement: they need to be open about communicating before, during and after sex. They may be rare, but they're out there. Vanilla can be just as fun as kink, but only if you do it "right."
33
Shennanigans! My husband and I have been having fulfilling sex for 8 years that I'm certain most people would define as vanilla - and we talk all the time about it. Before, during, after, what we like, what we don't like. Just because we don't do power play or bondage or watersports or e-stim doesn't mean that we are prudes, we just enjoy the vanilla sex that we have together. It sucks that you slept with some prudes, but those three guys don't represent us all.
34
Given how sex-phobic this country is and has increasingly become over the past couple of decades, plenty of people are carrying a lot of guilt and shame about sex so they can't talk about what they want. They probably don't even know what they want. Many people live in their heads and dislike their bodies because they don't live up to the ideal (yeah, we all know what that is: youthful, lean, muscular, whatever). They're not even paying attention to their bodies.
My tastes run to the vanilla, or so I've found after some experimentation. Vanilla sex requires communication as much as kinky sex does, but people in general just don't communicate well, verbally or non-verbally. There are people among the vanilla set who are comfortable with themselves and with sex who can communicate about it. I've had partners assume I would be kinky or might even describe me as such because I've been fairly comfortable with my body and straightforward in my communication.
I do think that people with vanilla preferences wlll be less likely to communicate well about sex, for the reasons I've stated above. Seems like it would be sink or swim as far as communication about kinky sex is concerned. It couldn't be managed at all without direct communication; in some cases non-communicating would even be life threatening, based on what I've read in Matisse's and Dan Savage's column.
My tastes run to the vanilla, or so I've found after some experimentation. Vanilla sex requires communication as much as kinky sex does, but people in general just don't communicate well, verbally or non-verbally. There are people among the vanilla set who are comfortable with themselves and with sex who can communicate about it. I've had partners assume I would be kinky or might even describe me as such because I've been fairly comfortable with my body and straightforward in my communication.
I do think that people with vanilla preferences wlll be less likely to communicate well about sex, for the reasons I've stated above. Seems like it would be sink or swim as far as communication about kinky sex is concerned. It couldn't be managed at all without direct communication; in some cases non-communicating would even be life threatening, based on what I've read in Matisse's and Dan Savage's column.
36
I agree with "know-it-all" and "ioduae".
I think the key word here is freedom of choice.
I am pretty vanilla. I am lucky in that I am satisfied pretty easily. I have been having orgasms regularly for 25 years without the need for a lot of bells and whistles. I recently met someone that I formed a strong connection with, but such an emphasis was put on sex, I just found it inhibiting. He didn't have the best "bedside manner" when his needs were not met.
Nothing turns me on more than intimacy, and that might include that "mental meld" where no words are necessary. That said, I need to be pleased and want to please my partner, so if that includes discussion and trying a few things that is what I want. However, too many technicalities may take the romance and intimacy out of the act for me, which is a lot of what turns me on.
For the kink crowd, go easy on the vanillas. I explained to this man, that when I really like someone and want a relationship, I take a little time to open up sexually. But he clearly did not think I was worth his patience. Yes, ouch!! I really felt judged by this man, a kind of "perform or be abandoned" feeling is not so conducive to uninhibited sex. You want me to feel comfortable and open to exploring each other sexually, try treating me with love and respect.
The next man I met, through the same online dating service, had no expectations. I felt completely uninhibited and we had a great sexual experience together. We even used words, heavy breathing and movement... all in a semi-public place.
While the basic mechanics of sex are pretty easy, so much more is brought into the bedroom... emotions, baggage, social conditioning... personal preferences. Communication and understanding are the key to any healthy relationship, but it may not make two people who like different things all of a sudden like the same things.
We are not all compatible, but we can appreciate our differences and move on with style and class. Unfortunately, some people- both vanilla and kinky -just have difficulty with communication AND intimacy. Luckily, we have the freedom to choose not to continue to have sex with people who don't meet our needs - whatever they may be.
More...
I think the key word here is freedom of choice.
I am pretty vanilla. I am lucky in that I am satisfied pretty easily. I have been having orgasms regularly for 25 years without the need for a lot of bells and whistles. I recently met someone that I formed a strong connection with, but such an emphasis was put on sex, I just found it inhibiting. He didn't have the best "bedside manner" when his needs were not met.
Nothing turns me on more than intimacy, and that might include that "mental meld" where no words are necessary. That said, I need to be pleased and want to please my partner, so if that includes discussion and trying a few things that is what I want. However, too many technicalities may take the romance and intimacy out of the act for me, which is a lot of what turns me on.
For the kink crowd, go easy on the vanillas. I explained to this man, that when I really like someone and want a relationship, I take a little time to open up sexually. But he clearly did not think I was worth his patience. Yes, ouch!! I really felt judged by this man, a kind of "perform or be abandoned" feeling is not so conducive to uninhibited sex. You want me to feel comfortable and open to exploring each other sexually, try treating me with love and respect.
The next man I met, through the same online dating service, had no expectations. I felt completely uninhibited and we had a great sexual experience together. We even used words, heavy breathing and movement... all in a semi-public place.
While the basic mechanics of sex are pretty easy, so much more is brought into the bedroom... emotions, baggage, social conditioning... personal preferences. Communication and understanding are the key to any healthy relationship, but it may not make two people who like different things all of a sudden like the same things.
We are not all compatible, but we can appreciate our differences and move on with style and class. Unfortunately, some people- both vanilla and kinky -just have difficulty with communication AND intimacy. Luckily, we have the freedom to choose not to continue to have sex with people who don't meet our needs - whatever they may be.
37
I usually like Mistress Matisse's columns but this one is absurd.
She writes: "I went out with several pleasant, good-looking guys from a social-networking site [and from that experience] I've figured out exactly what makes sex vanilla. The defining feature of vanilla sex is this: You communicate about it using only mental telepathy. Or so I'm forced to assume, because nonkinky people don't talk about fucking."
So...MM chooses "several" guys from a "social-networking" site to have sex with and from that, VERY LIMITED experience, is "forced to assume" that nonkinky people don't talk about fucking.
Brilliant. Absolutely fucking brilliant. By the same reasoning, I could say that if I met "several" women from a "social-networking site" and none of them were kinky, I'd be "forced to assume" that women aren't kinky.
I'm sure there are plenty of guys who are vanilla (or aren't super-kinky) who LOVE to talk about fucking while fucking. And who LOVE it when women talk about fucking while fucking. And who LOVE it when women move a lot. I sure do, and can't believe I'm some very rare exception.
Mistress Matisse just chose her vanilla men very poorly and, instead of accepting that, she chooses to indulge in cheap stereotyping. Maybe next time she should try meeting men somewhere other than on ihatetalkingwhilehavingsex.com
She writes: "I went out with several pleasant, good-looking guys from a social-networking site [and from that experience] I've figured out exactly what makes sex vanilla. The defining feature of vanilla sex is this: You communicate about it using only mental telepathy. Or so I'm forced to assume, because nonkinky people don't talk about fucking."
So...MM chooses "several" guys from a "social-networking" site to have sex with and from that, VERY LIMITED experience, is "forced to assume" that nonkinky people don't talk about fucking.
Brilliant. Absolutely fucking brilliant. By the same reasoning, I could say that if I met "several" women from a "social-networking site" and none of them were kinky, I'd be "forced to assume" that women aren't kinky.
I'm sure there are plenty of guys who are vanilla (or aren't super-kinky) who LOVE to talk about fucking while fucking. And who LOVE it when women talk about fucking while fucking. And who LOVE it when women move a lot. I sure do, and can't believe I'm some very rare exception.
Mistress Matisse just chose her vanilla men very poorly and, instead of accepting that, she chooses to indulge in cheap stereotyping. Maybe next time she should try meeting men somewhere other than on ihatetalkingwhilehavingsex.com
38
I do suspect your sample pool was skewed. When you're dating kinky partners from the sex-positive community, you are limiting it to people whom you already KNOW are open about sex (at least open enough about kink and their sexuality to "come out" to the kinky community about it). Because the kink community is smaller than the vanilla dating pool, the people in the kink community who are looking for one-night stands are also very likely to be good at negotiation - if they weren't, they wouldn't find very many partners.
In contrast, there are a huge number of vanilla guys (girls too, but mostly guys) who completely lack negotiation skills whatsoever. And they're ALL in the one-night-stand pool, because none of them are capable of keeping a longer relationship. If you go looking for a vanilla one-night-stand, you have a much higher chance of getting one of these guys, simply because many of the vanilla people who actually communicate effectively have already partnered off in monogomous relationships.
I suspect if you were to walk up to random people on the street, somehow talk them each into sex, and then categorize them on whether they were kinky/vanilla and whether they communicated, you would find the differences were a lot less noticable.
In contrast, there are a huge number of vanilla guys (girls too, but mostly guys) who completely lack negotiation skills whatsoever. And they're ALL in the one-night-stand pool, because none of them are capable of keeping a longer relationship. If you go looking for a vanilla one-night-stand, you have a much higher chance of getting one of these guys, simply because many of the vanilla people who actually communicate effectively have already partnered off in monogomous relationships.
I suspect if you were to walk up to random people on the street, somehow talk them each into sex, and then categorize them on whether they were kinky/vanilla and whether they communicated, you would find the differences were a lot less noticable.
39
I've read Matisse's column, blog and listened to her podcast for two years and I've NEVER disagreed with anything so much as what she wrote here. While it sounds like at least one of the guys she slept with is a dick, her generalizations have made this column an attack on vanilla people in general.
I was actually so miffed by what was written here that I wrote a huge response on my own blog, so I'll spare everyone a ranting comment and post the URL if you're interested.
http://geekysex.blogspot.com/2009/08/def…
I was actually so miffed by what was written here that I wrote a huge response on my own blog, so I'll spare everyone a ranting comment and post the URL if you're interested.
http://geekysex.blogspot.com/2009/08/def…
40
"[H]er generalizations have made this column an attack on vanilla people in general."
"Attack?" I've been critical of MM here, too, but let's not get use hyperbole. There are a few definitions of "attack," but most of them contain some sort of element of intent to harm. I don't think MM had any intent to harm vanilla people here; she just made an honest mistake. Take it easy, Geeky.
We should be extra vigilant of how we use (and hear) words like "attack" when the person/s doing the alleged attacking are members of a minority describing how they feel about the majority. In the last 15 or so years, the right wing has done a brilliant job of using this type of language to artificially victimize whites, heteros, Christians, males, Republicans, gun owners, etc. (not that these groups can't be victimized at all). This artificial victimization of the majority has been used to deflect what is often fair criticism coming from minority groups.
"Attack?" I've been critical of MM here, too, but let's not get use hyperbole. There are a few definitions of "attack," but most of them contain some sort of element of intent to harm. I don't think MM had any intent to harm vanilla people here; she just made an honest mistake. Take it easy, Geeky.
We should be extra vigilant of how we use (and hear) words like "attack" when the person/s doing the alleged attacking are members of a minority describing how they feel about the majority. In the last 15 or so years, the right wing has done a brilliant job of using this type of language to artificially victimize whites, heteros, Christians, males, Republicans, gun owners, etc. (not that these groups can't be victimized at all). This artificial victimization of the majority has been used to deflect what is often fair criticism coming from minority groups.
41
Its cracking me up how seriously people are taking this. Wow touchy much? Listen kids, she's just riffing! she's jerking your chain a little and your totally falling for it. Do you all have Asperger's or something that you're all so literal all the time? MM doesn't really think that no vanilla people talk to each other EVER, okay? She's deliberatly exaggerating to be F-U-N-N-Y. and you so don't get it.
44
Wow, that's so sweet. Big bad dom is a shy awkward girl hooking up with the wrong men as soon as she puts her whips and chains away. That's how most of us feel most of the time trying to find someone to satisfy us, as all the anecdotes will show. "Kink" just means you have a community who is already using the same manual, so its a lot easier for them to get on the same page. For the record, I was with a woman who did want me to fuck her missionary without talking (during sex) and just get her off quick. She wasn't even interested in oral, which hasn't been kinky since 1880 or something. But I talk about sex all the time, and she was willing to talk about my needs, fantasies, whatever...she just never followed through. Even in the norm, I think there is a big difference in communicating and exploring. Some have sex for play, and some have sex for maintenance.
@kungfujew, attack has a much broader meaning, especially on the internet or in debate. When one counters a particular argument against a practice/policy/theory/etc. with a broader argument against a group, that is widely regarded as an "attack." For example: "In the last 15 or so years, the right wing has done a brilliant job of using this type of language to artificially victimize whites, heteros, Christians, males, Republicans, gun owners, etc." is an argument against a group that is meant to argue against a practice (semantic variation of the word "attack") by impugning the group.
@kungfujew, attack has a much broader meaning, especially on the internet or in debate. When one counters a particular argument against a practice/policy/theory/etc. with a broader argument against a group, that is widely regarded as an "attack." For example: "In the last 15 or so years, the right wing has done a brilliant job of using this type of language to artificially victimize whites, heteros, Christians, males, Republicans, gun owners, etc." is an argument against a group that is meant to argue against a practice (semantic variation of the word "attack") by impugning the group.
45
I started with kinky sex and so I thought everybody talked about what they wanted. Then I talked with vanilla people and all I could think was, "How can that possibly be fun?" When I finally asked one friend she just shrugged and responded "Well, it is sometimes and you can always just try to nudge them the right way." She had never tried asking. I'll keep my kinky people because my telepathy was never that good to start with.
46
@44: I agree that a critique of vanilla sex can be tantamount to a critique of vanilla people, if that is what you are saying. I just don't think that all critique rises to the level of "attack." Don't you think it's a bit weak to characterize this as an attack?
Did you quote my mini-diatribe against the oppressive right and it's disingenuous casting of themselves as victims as an example of an attack? Because, unlike MM's critique of vanilla sex, that was indeed an attack, albeit not a very effective one.
Did you quote my mini-diatribe against the oppressive right and it's disingenuous casting of themselves as victims as an example of an attack? Because, unlike MM's critique of vanilla sex, that was indeed an attack, albeit not a very effective one.
47
I was saying that attack has a broader meaning, certainly not that MM was attacking vanilla. (I'm vanilla, MM, come attack me!) I only skimmed the geek's post (rant), and was not commenting on it. I was trying to make am important semantic argument without derailing the much more entertaining discussion about what gets who off.
49
haha that doesn't sound like "vanilla sex" that just sounds like bad sex.
my guess is there's bad "kinky" sex just like there's bad "boring" sex.
my guess is there's bad "kinky" sex just like there's bad "boring" sex.
50
MM, an open letter to you:
go take a leap...I finally have had it...your hypocrisy is beyond any level of respect.
I hate myself for even giving you credit by responding, but had to in all fairness to the truly thoughtful [and over-thinky] commenters before me.
For anyone who disagrees...enjoy my paraphrase...my comments in [PARENTHESES!!!]
MM: I have skills and confidence in bed [awesome, she's not shy or humble, that's hot!]
MM: I do not understand how to be sexual like this [whoops! not so skillful or confident afterall... she just admitted that she just doesn't understand, kinda undermines anything else she says]
MM: I've figured out exactly what makes sex vanilla [oh wait! she lied before...she REALLY does get it]
MM: vanilla sex is this: You communicate about it using only mental telepathy [um, there's probably some body parts involved...and "sex" predates words...no?]
MM: one of them remarked, "You move too much." [OH, NOW I GET IT...so when one of your dates communicated to you with actual words, you didn't like that either]
hmmmm, the common denominator [common denominatrix?] is YOU.
MM, some unsolicited advice [if you can actually receive and not just give]
spare the rest of us, and go f*ck yourself, because it's clear you only love you...and as far as I can tell, only you love you...
;)
go take a leap...I finally have had it...your hypocrisy is beyond any level of respect.
I hate myself for even giving you credit by responding, but had to in all fairness to the truly thoughtful [and over-thinky] commenters before me.
For anyone who disagrees...enjoy my paraphrase...my comments in [PARENTHESES!!!]
MM: I have skills and confidence in bed [awesome, she's not shy or humble, that's hot!]
MM: I do not understand how to be sexual like this [whoops! not so skillful or confident afterall... she just admitted that she just doesn't understand, kinda undermines anything else she says]
MM: I've figured out exactly what makes sex vanilla [oh wait! she lied before...she REALLY does get it]
MM: vanilla sex is this: You communicate about it using only mental telepathy [um, there's probably some body parts involved...and "sex" predates words...no?]
MM: one of them remarked, "You move too much." [OH, NOW I GET IT...so when one of your dates communicated to you with actual words, you didn't like that either]
hmmmm, the common denominator [common denominatrix?] is YOU.
MM, some unsolicited advice [if you can actually receive and not just give]
spare the rest of us, and go f*ck yourself, because it's clear you only love you...and as far as I can tell, only you love you...
;)
51
I agree with MM's assertion that she is "ruined for vanilla sex" I too took the path to my ruination starting with getting spanked in college and it has been down (up) hill ever since. I find vanilla sex, regardless of how much one communicates or not, boring beyond words and would rather sleep or watch TV.
52
handmaid99 (@51):
I think most of us agree that MM is probably ruined for vanilla sex. We just don't trust her proffered reason for being ruined; lack of communication.
In contrast to MM, you state that you find the act(s) of vanilla sex boring "regardless of how much one communicates or not." You just happen to find kinky sex way more exciting than vanilla sex. MM probably feels the same way but just didn't say so because by itself, this would not have made for an interesting column.
I think most of us agree that MM is probably ruined for vanilla sex. We just don't trust her proffered reason for being ruined; lack of communication.
In contrast to MM, you state that you find the act(s) of vanilla sex boring "regardless of how much one communicates or not." You just happen to find kinky sex way more exciting than vanilla sex. MM probably feels the same way but just didn't say so because by itself, this would not have made for an interesting column.
53
That doesn't sound vanilla, that sounds crappy.
I'm a pretty vanilla person: I'm flexible and GGG and I've been in some pretty kinky relationships, but at the end of the day I just want to get fucked.
In any case, the closest I've come to that level of non-communication -- and that level of feeling as if my attempts at communicating were causing discomfort to my partner -- as a full-grown adult was a fling with a lifestyle dom.
I'm a pretty vanilla person: I'm flexible and GGG and I've been in some pretty kinky relationships, but at the end of the day I just want to get fucked.
In any case, the closest I've come to that level of non-communication -- and that level of feeling as if my attempts at communicating were causing discomfort to my partner -- as a full-grown adult was a fling with a lifestyle dom.
54
It seems like a lot of folks here are equating "communication" with "noise." Now, granted, I like screaming, crying, giggling, and yelping as much as the next gal (provided the next gal is a bonobo chimp with a flair for drama), but I do think one of the very specific communication things I've gotten from kinky relationships *is* the specificity. After a first time with someone new rather than saying, "That was great!" I tend to say, "That was awesome, but I'm kinda curious. You seem to do this slight hesitation with a kind of blank expression right before you come. Now, is that because you're trying to hold back or just how you are? Is the blank expression actually preorgasmic? Orgasmic? Just curious. Oh, and when you had my leg up over my head? That was awesome, let's try that with anal next time, kay?" The guy with the slightly weird orgasm pattern had never had anyone ask him about it before, but once I explained what I meant, he thought about it and realized that he does tend to hold back to intensify his experience. That was a useful thing for me to know, and to be able to use with him next time. Surely I wasn't the first girl who had ever noticed, just the first who was curious enough to ask, I guess.
And those of you who suggest that maybe Matisse "try vanilla sex with Max or Monk" are, surely, joking. She writes frequently about how just because you're a kinky person doesn't mean every interaction has to be kinky. If you're a kinky person, plain old missionary position with the door locked and the lights off is kinky. No, really. Try it as part of a rape/abduction mindfuck and suddenly a "vanilla" act feels really filthy.
And those of you who suggest that maybe Matisse "try vanilla sex with Max or Monk" are, surely, joking. She writes frequently about how just because you're a kinky person doesn't mean every interaction has to be kinky. If you're a kinky person, plain old missionary position with the door locked and the lights off is kinky. No, really. Try it as part of a rape/abduction mindfuck and suddenly a "vanilla" act feels really filthy.
56
The first guy who ever talked dirty to me during sex has become the love of my life... it was a revelation. I'm not sure quite how kinky we are... probably pretty borderline... but this article made me laugh regardless, because I still remember the shock of experiencing it, compared with the 'silent vanilla' I'd had before. Several years on it's still a turn-on to me to be having directional, intimate conversations during sex. I remember reading a comment from Dan Savage once where he said something like 'ask questions and expect answers, you're not in a library!' So true...
57
I think we need to move the bar, here. If a guy is silent, doesn't like to talk about (or during) the act, and certianly if he thinks you "move too much" ... it's not that this guy is vanilla, it's that he's BAD IN BED.
Shouldn't there be higher expectations? Should this sort of behavior be rewarded? I don't even consider myself all that kinky, but damn sure sex should be talked about, or else why do you even need to involve another person?
This goes for women, too... I had one girl I really liked who would just lay there. I constantly asked her what she might like more, she just shrugged and said she liked the intensity of it. First of all, that response didn't even make any sense.... and second, I was like, WHAT intensity? We didn't last long, though I'm still friends with her-- and her boyfriends in subsequent years never seemed unhappy.
Maybe I'm a kinky bastard after all? Oh the twisted hedonistic horror of reverse cowgirl...
Shouldn't there be higher expectations? Should this sort of behavior be rewarded? I don't even consider myself all that kinky, but damn sure sex should be talked about, or else why do you even need to involve another person?
This goes for women, too... I had one girl I really liked who would just lay there. I constantly asked her what she might like more, she just shrugged and said she liked the intensity of it. First of all, that response didn't even make any sense.... and second, I was like, WHAT intensity? We didn't last long, though I'm still friends with her-- and her boyfriends in subsequent years never seemed unhappy.
Maybe I'm a kinky bastard after all? Oh the twisted hedonistic horror of reverse cowgirl...
58
I think we need to move the bar, here. If a guy is silent, doesn't like to talk about (or during) the act, and certianly if he thinks you "move too much" ... it's not that this guy is vanilla, it's that he's BAD IN BED.
Shouldn't there be higher expectations? Should this sort of behavior be rewarded? I don't even consider myself all that kinky, but damn sure sex should be talked about, or else why do you even need to involve another person?
This goes for women, too... I had one girl I really liked who would just lay there. I constantly asked her what she might like more, she just shrugged and said she liked the intensity of it. First of all, that response didn't even make any sense.... and second, I was like, WHAT intensity? We didn't last long, though I'm still friends with her-- and her boyfriends in subsequent years never seemed unhappy.
Maybe I'm a kinky bastard after all? Oh the twisted hedonistic horror of reverse cowgirl...
Shouldn't there be higher expectations? Should this sort of behavior be rewarded? I don't even consider myself all that kinky, but damn sure sex should be talked about, or else why do you even need to involve another person?
This goes for women, too... I had one girl I really liked who would just lay there. I constantly asked her what she might like more, she just shrugged and said she liked the intensity of it. First of all, that response didn't even make any sense.... and second, I was like, WHAT intensity? We didn't last long, though I'm still friends with her-- and her boyfriends in subsequent years never seemed unhappy.
Maybe I'm a kinky bastard after all? Oh the twisted hedonistic horror of reverse cowgirl...
59
Kinky is a state of mind. Once someone starts talking about sex, reading about sex, and trying new things - once someone actually starts becoming "good in bed" - they're no longer "vanilla".
"Kinky" and "vanilla" don't refer to specific sex acts, they refer to states of mind. And this post spells that out very well. I'll be sending people to this post for a long time.
"Kinky" and "vanilla" don't refer to specific sex acts, they refer to states of mind. And this post spells that out very well. I'll be sending people to this post for a long time.
60
@59 J222:
It sounds like you are saying that MM is really saying: "Actually folks, a lot of people who regard themselves as vanilla are actually kind of kinky because they communicate about sex, even if their sex acts do not involve power games, ropes or toys."
It is far from spelled out very well that this is where MM was going.
It sounds like you are saying that MM is really saying: "Actually folks, a lot of people who regard themselves as vanilla are actually kind of kinky because they communicate about sex, even if their sex acts do not involve power games, ropes or toys."
It is far from spelled out very well that this is where MM was going.
61
I think it's pretty close-minded to say that vanilla sex = non-communication. Maybe you were with the wrong vanilla boys. I wouldn't consider myself very kinky or vanilla...maybe somewhere in the middle...but there's definitely a lot of communication, movement, excitement and noise in the sex I have.
63
nothing personal, but if I were having sex with Kungfujew, I would prefer silence. Talking about sex in the middle of the act requires a certain tone that I don't think kungfu is capable of.
65
@13 I totally agree with you, not ALL vanilla sex is boring and lacking communication, I'd also chalk it up to uncaring bad lovers!
67
Just a note.
I'm over 70 and i love and admire a woman of any age who will admit she likes/loves sex. But sex is something to be enjoyed by both partners.
In order to receive the pleasure we're seeking, sometimes direction is needed in order to produce the desired effect. I feel there is nothing wrong for either partner to coach, encourage or direct in order to get the job done to the satisfactin of both.
I'm over 70 and i love and admire a woman of any age who will admit she likes/loves sex. But sex is something to be enjoyed by both partners.
In order to receive the pleasure we're seeking, sometimes direction is needed in order to produce the desired effect. I feel there is nothing wrong for either partner to coach, encourage or direct in order to get the job done to the satisfactin of both.
68
I assume the people who responded “my partner and I have mind blowing sex for years and are exclusively vanilla” win some sort of prize? Fantastic, how nice for you. I thought that some of MM’s story was meant to be wry and funny. To suggest that she shouldn’t draw conclusions based on a handful of fucks assumes this topic is so important to her that she should do a scientific sampling of at least 1 percent of the entire vanilla male populous before making such spurious statements. Uh, again, I think she was just making a somewhat humorous observation about a few experiences. And, dollars to doughnuts, I’m betting half the people suggesting she just encountered the wrong vanilla partners would merit their own wry comments if personally experienced.
70
If you have sex with men who are boring out of bed, it will be boring sex. Sex with clever, witty people who make you laugh is much more fun, matching kinks or no . . .
71
hey, i'm a straight female, and usually don't get too deep into kinky stuff. i like it a little rough [bites, etc.] and like to be held down or tied at times. but it isn't often and now its pretty rare since my boy seems to like it [and gets me to like it] with no kink and just passion.
but, although my boy isn't kinky at all he loves it when i "move around" and whenever we have sex he talks to me and asks me where he should what, if it feels right, if i want to change position, etc. to be honest i get way more hot and bothered when he talks to me. WAY more. i couldn't imagine being still and silent in bed anymore. it would make me feel like there was something wrong. or just... cold in a way.
i hope that if you try "vanilla" again you'll find someone who isn't boring in bed.
but, although my boy isn't kinky at all he loves it when i "move around" and whenever we have sex he talks to me and asks me where he should what, if it feels right, if i want to change position, etc. to be honest i get way more hot and bothered when he talks to me. WAY more. i couldn't imagine being still and silent in bed anymore. it would make me feel like there was something wrong. or just... cold in a way.
i hope that if you try "vanilla" again you'll find someone who isn't boring in bed.
72
Based on my experience of cultural expectations about sex, versus reality:
Ordinary, "romantic," vanilla sex is not supposed to need communication--things just fall together and work out perfectly with no work at all, because you're "soul mates," you just have that "special connection." There's also an expectation that women have sex in order to be emotionally intimate with their partner, not in order to get off, so they don't really have likes and dislikes, they're only fucking to please. Men are assumed to have sex just to get off, and only communicate or use romance to get to the end goal of sticking it in. So this cultural assumptive view is both incredibly ridiculously idealized, and horribly cynical.
In reality, these assumptions can be downright dangerous. I know a handful of women who have been raped because they didn't know that if they're not in the mood, they can say no, and their boyfriends didn't know that trying something and seeing if the girl says "no" is not, actually, a fair way of gauging interest in a sex act. Since women are not supposed to really want sex or be active in it, and no one's supposed to talk about it because it should just magically work, these assumptions lead to an atmosphere in which abuse is easy and unchecked.
Of course, kinky sex has abuse potential too, and a lot of potential for danger. But at least in the community, safety, saneness, and consent are highly valued, and along with these comes a deep need and value for useful communication. Bad kinky sex is definitely possible, but this framework of communication in safely-done kink does seem to limit that possibility.
Me? I'm pretty vanilla, especially compared to the illustrious Mistress, but I admire this aspect of kink and I try to apply it in my vanilla experience. *shrug* take it or leave it.
More...
Ordinary, "romantic," vanilla sex is not supposed to need communication--things just fall together and work out perfectly with no work at all, because you're "soul mates," you just have that "special connection." There's also an expectation that women have sex in order to be emotionally intimate with their partner, not in order to get off, so they don't really have likes and dislikes, they're only fucking to please. Men are assumed to have sex just to get off, and only communicate or use romance to get to the end goal of sticking it in. So this cultural assumptive view is both incredibly ridiculously idealized, and horribly cynical.
In reality, these assumptions can be downright dangerous. I know a handful of women who have been raped because they didn't know that if they're not in the mood, they can say no, and their boyfriends didn't know that trying something and seeing if the girl says "no" is not, actually, a fair way of gauging interest in a sex act. Since women are not supposed to really want sex or be active in it, and no one's supposed to talk about it because it should just magically work, these assumptions lead to an atmosphere in which abuse is easy and unchecked.
Of course, kinky sex has abuse potential too, and a lot of potential for danger. But at least in the community, safety, saneness, and consent are highly valued, and along with these comes a deep need and value for useful communication. Bad kinky sex is definitely possible, but this framework of communication in safely-done kink does seem to limit that possibility.
Me? I'm pretty vanilla, especially compared to the illustrious Mistress, but I admire this aspect of kink and I try to apply it in my vanilla experience. *shrug* take it or leave it.
74
@72 I have tremendous empathy for people who feel violated, but people who don't attempt to express their refusal (unless they're incapacitated/drugged) should not be called rape victims.
Because I'd want to be supportive, I wouldn't say this to someone working through such an experience unless they were pressing charges, but I say it as often as I can in less charged sex conversations-- we HAVE to draw a line in defining something that can get a person imprisoned/ostracized, and "let my partner think it was ok" is surely one such line.
Because I'd want to be supportive, I wouldn't say this to someone working through such an experience unless they were pressing charges, but I say it as often as I can in less charged sex conversations-- we HAVE to draw a line in defining something that can get a person imprisoned/ostracized, and "let my partner think it was ok" is surely one such line.
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