Go for it, CYGMSA, and good luck! He'll probably say no, but you don't know till you try and nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that stuff. Besides, I know a therapist who fell in love with her client, told him she couldn't continue to see him in a professional capacity because of her (reciprocated) feelings, and as soon as he terminated her services, asked him out. They recently celebrated their 26th wedding anniversary.

yay

In all states I am aware, the therapist would be risking his or her license. EvenTexas requires 5 years.

This seems like the gender-swapped version of the dude who asks his escort out.

The reason this rule is in place is because of the power dynamic that occurs in therapy. The transference and countertransference means most everyone at some point falls in love with their therapist and they with you. And the reverse happens often as well.
It's to guarantee the therapy setting is safe and allows for all feelings that bubble up to be looked at.
He could lose his license, if found out.

Jesus f- christ, rules are there for a reason! Once they didn't have these rules and a whole lot of messes and abuses happened. No not every thing is fair in love and war. And the shrink patient relationship is one of the most intimate and emotionally fraught around. Don't go there.

I don't get it. Its like as soon as sexy time gets into the equation, all rules go out the door for dan. Maybe he figures the shrink will just shoot lw down, but man....

Dan, you blew it. You frequently ask experts to weigh in when providing advice. This should have been one of those times. You lack the credentials to determine that it is appropriate to "bend the rules".

At least give it, I don't know, six months. The idea is that you don't want to be -- we as the public don't want therapists to be -- still in the infatuation stage coming directly out of the emotional intimacy of a good therapy relationship.

"and the extremely short amount of time you have left on this planet"

Hey, hey! mid-50's isn't exactly 1 foot in the grave, thank you very much! Many, many people live well beyond their mid-50's, and do so happily.
Signed,
Someone just entering their 40's who doesn't want to think about only having 15 or so years left :)

As an attorney who represents medical professionals (including in Washington State, California, Florida and Illinois) in disciplinary proceedings, I strongly urge Dan to retract his advise. Penalties for this kind of violation are severe and swift. Physicians and other professionals routinely lose their licenses for things like this. It is considered "easy pickings" for enforcement agencies, because they do not have to debate the merits of treatment. I've long felt like that Dan needs an attorney to be a guest columnist in some of his answers. Indeed, he edges up to the unlicensed practice of law on occasion. Retract, retract!

Make use of the two years, LW, and date another therapist short-term to get used to that sort of relationship.

I wouldn't wait. Not unless someone can plausibly demonstrate that human life expectancy extends very much past age 50. These two are basically living on borrowed time, unless I'm mistaken.

@royskeen: Physicians and other professionals routinely lose their licenses

Dan wasn't advising a physician, he was advising a patient who, since you brought it up, faces no legal or professional risk pursuing his advise.

I've long felt like that Dan needs an attorney to be a guest columnist in some of his answers.

Yeah, that would be sweet. Cause if there's one thing the world needs, it's more lawyers lawyering shit up!

The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of THE AUTHOR and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Dan Savage, The Stranger, or Tim Keck Enterprises, Inc. This post may contain instances of irony, metaphor, hyperbole, and/or other content not intended to be taken literally by THE READER. The views are presented "as is" with no warranty as to their accuracy or verity. Reproduction of this text without the express written permission of THE AUTHOR is prohibited. Getting a law degree was a huge mistake. I hate my life.

FWIW, I think Dan was kidding about the "extremely short time left on this planet" since he is about the LW's age.

Srsly though, CYGMSA: pay attention to the 2-year rule. It's a serious professional-ethics rule, and could cost Mr. Therapist his license if he breaks it. My guess is he won't appreciate (or want to date) someone who tries to tempt him into an ethical violation.

From the link provided:

"10.08 SEXUAL INTIMACIES WITH FORMER THERAPY CLIENTS/PATIENTS

(a) Psychologists do not engage in sexual intimacies with former clients/patients for at least two years after cessation or termination of therapy.

(b) Psychologists do not engage in sexual intimacies with former clients/patients even after a two-year interval except in the most unusual circumstances. "

HOWEVER: the rule is about a relationship of a sexual nature (the rest of Dan's link is very much worth reading). If you're up-front (with him & yourself) about only wanting to go out for coffee, and you're able & willing to not try to take things into ethically questionable territory, then go for it.

Even though the issues discussed weren't hugely impeding the patient's life, even though they feel on the same page, etc, etc - I wouldn't ask the therapist out. At least not so close to the end of working with them. @5 & @6 have the right of it IMO: the very nature of the therapist / patient relationship is that the therapist guides their client to a place of emotional safety, so that honesty can happen safely for the client. Sometimes that creates a sense of intimacy between the client & therapist; sometimes the intimacy is genuine, & the therapist is fond of X, Y or Z client / patient. BUT, the power dynamic is too great, & although the LW sounds like they have a decent beat on the rapport they have w/ their therapist, they could be reading it wrong.

LW: ask your the therapist if they want to remain in touch socially, & what methods of contact are OK w/ them. Email, etc. If the caregiver has any respect for their situation they won't be up for dating you right away, if at all. But if the attraction is true & mutual, AND you're willing to wait whatever the recommended amount of time is, go for it, I guess. I'd be hesitant, as I think it's easy to read the comfort a good therapist gives you as friendship or attraction when in reality it might be just them doin' their job. Also, be prepared..if the therapist was just professionally friendly, not flirting, try not to take it too personally or be resentful. It is sometimes difficult to sort through current feelings when working through past stuff w/ someone trained to get you to confide in them.

Dan: really disagree with you this time.

(Although, nocute's story @1 has a happy ending..IDK. I just know *I* wouldn't ask out my therapist.)

I could not help remembering this old chestnut:

A gay guy falls in love with a proctologist. He goes to the proctologist's office and says that he has an obstruction.

So the proctologist sticks his hand up the guy's ass but can't find anything. However, he notices that the man has an erection, so the proctologist cuts short the examination and orders the gay guy out of his office.

The next day, the gay guy calls the proctologist and claims he has another obstruction. The proctologist doesn't believe him but the guy claims he is in great pain, so the doctor relents. When the guy arrives, the doctor sticks his hand up the guy's ass again but this time he finds something.

"Good God!" the doctor exclaims, "No wonder you're in pain. There are two dozen roses shoved up your ass."

The gay guy turns around excitedly and says, "Read the card! Read the Card!"

If you're reading CYGMSA: it is a bad, bad, bad idea to ask someone to risk their career to date you. If he's worth his salt as a therapist, he'll turn you down anyway. At most I'd think it might be okay to drop a discreet note, to which no response is required or expected, that says, "catch up with me later." Or, you know, just wait the two years, because who knows what else will have happened by then.

Also, just in case you weren't aware, this sort of patient-therapist attraction is extremely common, so common that there's a name for it: erotic transference. Even if Mr. Therapist returns your feelings, there isn't anything remarkable about your connection. Honestly, there isn't. Been there, done that, felt indescribably stupid later. Err on the side of leaving him alone.

seandr @ 13
The way I see it royskeen @ 10 was highlighting a very possible outcome of a Dan-approved scenario, the one in which people loose their medical license by getting involved with a client.

The person who wants to date a medic-of -some sort should be aware of the possible consequences. Mr. Savage routinely quotes experts who tell us that sex addiction ISN’T real. What’s wrong with a much-maligned lawyer telling us what IS real?

And since we’re on a legal roller coaster:
nocute @ 1
I’m happy for the happy ending, yet this particular couple has met at least 26 and possibly more years ago. Quite a few rules and regulations have changed in the meantime.

OH GOD IT'S BEEN THREE MONTHS I'M CURED AND YOU ARE THE PERFECT PERSON FOR ME LET'S FUCK

@17Kyle; good one. @18, what, another Ghost. And yes, I know that one too. The perfect relationship, someone who totally focuses on oneself, with care and skill.

Also, people get crushes on their therapists all the time. *All the time*. If your therapist is anything like my friends in the profession, he gets hit on by clients feeling like they have a special connection with him at least once a month. Which is not to say don't ask him out. If you feel like you just have to, then do it, I guess. Maybe you're the one exception to the rule and he'll be thrilled you brought it up. But make your peace with the fact that it's much more likely you'll be one in a very long string of people reading more into the therapeutic relationship than is there.

Add me to the voices saying you (probably) shouldn't do it. This transference thing is very real and chances are that's what you're feeling. Also, the things you list as proof of your connection are a bit weak. "Fuck Trump, love Bernie" political views are not exactly hard to find these days, and synching up to your sense of humor is likely part of the therapeutic process.

I've been in your shoes (somewhat): with a same-age opposite-sex therapist and I remember feeling something like that. How could you not fall for someone who listens to you, understands you and is always on your side? The problem is that this relationship is very one-sided, unlike a real friendship/romantic relationship. Even if you learn some stuff about the therapist in the course of your treatment, the focus is always on you.

Ms Cute - Someone ought to rewrite Emma from the angle that the greatest romantic attachment in all of Highbury and environs is between Mr Woodhouse and Mr Perry, who seem at least as married as any of the official couples.

No one is talking about how - if they do begin dating - the shrink should go about hiding the fact that the LW was his patient. Y'all are hung up on things like 'ethics' and 'judgment' and stuff. Think strategically, people!

That's it, Sean, @13. Your post, especially the last line.. Then your therapy would be off.
I loved my therapist so much, and still do. After five years, there was a moment, we talked it thru. He healed my heart, how could I not fall in love with him.

LW, talk with him about these romantic feelings.
If he's a good therapist, he will work with you to explore these feelings, not join you in following them.

Stranger things have happened. Me, I never have male therapists. That's a hard and fast rule. I'm gay. I know that not even most male therapists are anything but straight and professional ethics are something of a block (not to mention that I'm just not wreck-your-career attractive), but that's not the point. I need to not have even the remote possibility of invoking any kind of paternal situation. At all. That brings up a lot of ussyes that I simply don't have in therapy with women.

I remember being in my first Body Electric workshop and all the participants were asked to refrain from having contact with the leaders and all the other participants for one year. IT'S EVERYWHERE.

Now I'm done making it about me for no reason at all.

Absurdist1968@28. Yes, I didn't trust going to a female therapist for a long therapy. I did go to a Jungian one for a while, after my marriage broke up. She was beautiful.
My husband and I went to one together. He was cool, except he gave into the impulse. He fucked his clients, bad, bad moves.
Eventually one of their husband's dobbed him in. He then killed himself. Left a couple of youngish kids, a lovely, intelligent wife.
So that rule is in place to protect the Therapist as well as the Client.

Good stuff from @22 and @23. I agree with @14. They should spend post-therapy time together as friends. In two years' time, if they still like each other, they can take the friendship to the next level. I bet they won't find much to talk about on that coffee date when they're no longer talking about her problems.

I'm afraid Dan's advice gives credence to the far Right's position of slippery slopes:
Sex before marriage? Now generally accepted.
Sex outside of marriage? Gaining ground instead of divorce.
Sex as an aside in a place of business? (Last column on vetting sugar.) Dan doesn't see a problem.
Now sex within the power and intimacy dynamic of therapy. Dan says go for it. Others see reasons why there's a taboo.

LW should bring up her feelings with Therapist: "I'm developing a crush on you."
Therapist can then go into all the ways the feelings are normal but acting on them is inappropriate. He can suggest another therapist or help her work through her feelings in a therapeutic setting. If he does think he might be interested after 2 years, he should NOT approach it as a waiting period. It should be a clean break in which she goes along her merry way. If either of them is still feeling it after 2 years, then one or the other reaches out.

Nothing says you can't ask. Expect him to say "no," though, because he'd be risking his license if he did. There's a good chance he's not that into you.

There is a consensus that some time be observed between the end of the therapeutic relationship and the beginning a social/personal relationship between a former therapist and former patient. Issues of transference and unequal power dynamics that don't end with the last session, state statutes, consideration of a possible future malpractice lawsuit, the possibility that a patient might want additional sessions in the future, and the applicable licensing and certification rules of conduct generally place the therapist in the position to decline no matter if (s)he wants to pursue a personal relationship beyond the last therapeutic session or not.

Additional info:
http://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewconte…
Annals of Health Law
Vol. 2, Issue 1 1993; Psychotherapist's Sexual Relationships with Their Patients (Clifton Perry, Joan Wallman Kuruc)
(For the purpose of the article, the term "psychotherapist" is used to describe different licensed professional therapists.)
See Standard of Care section, about 3rd page in and the associated footnote.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/7742…
When Is It Okay to Date a Patient? Medscape Ethics Report 2012
(Shelly Reese)
Some physician respondents said that they believe that the there should be a 6 month gap between the end of the patient/physician relationship before dating the patient.

I'd like more people crushing on me and feeling that we have a special connection. Considering a career change to therapist...

@34: If you're the type that likes abusing positions of trust...

Also what a terrible, terrible idea. I wonder if the LW and their therapist have talked about falling hard and fast for people they shouldn't.

@31 Finchu; Or, he could help her understand who/ where/ when those feelings may originally come from.
Transference, is the reactivation of
primitive states. A good therapist doesn't talk of his/ her own life. For that hour he/she is once again the perfect idealised parent/ caregiver. The Client transfers onto the Therapist his/ her story; the Therapist acts like a canvas. Containing the Client's story, and guiding the Client to look at their story in different ways.. The emotions that start to fly are big.
Potentially, a powerful healing dynamic.

@33, SNJ-RN; Then what's the point of the law saying two years.
I remember reading one of Freud's disciples, used to cuddle his clients.
Fresh@34; You get to be crushed on after listening to their sad sad stories.

It seems to be a frequent occurrence recently that commentators are in general (albeit not universal) agreement that Dan has provided some questionable advice, which usually involves giving permission to a letter writer who would like to have sex with someone they perhaps shouldn't. I'm left wondering what's changed in Dan's perspective that "go for it" is now his standard advice, particularly when there seem to be strong considerations against that advice.

In the past, baristas, waitresses, and others in service industries have written in about irritation of men making advances to them on the job. Being friendly is part of their job, and customers often confuse that friendliness with romantic interests, which it is not. As noted above, therapist are by training, if not by nature, empathetic individuals who can create an emotional bond with their patients to facilitate the patient's therapy. Like the men who think the cute barista is genuinely interested them personally, I think what LW is experiencing is a similarly one-sided connection because she doesn't understand the nature of the treatment she was receiving. Moreover, in the doctor-patient relationship is covered by standards of professional practice and state law that seek to limit romantic relationships between therapists and patients. Given that, I think the best advice to is suggest that LW recognize that what she's feeling is a crush arising out of the emotional intimacy of therapy which will dissipate, and that she should look elsewhere for a romantic partner.

Updated rules from Strom Consulting-The Washington Department of Health (DoH) is currently considering revising WAC 246-16-100 which specifies the rules regarding health care provider sexual misconduct. The DoH is looking to “clarify what acts constitute sexual misconduct by providers in health care professions.”

Currently, the general rule is that health care providers are prohibited from engaging in romantic or sexual relationships with individuals who are current patients/clients or who have been patients/clients during the past two years.

This “two-year” rule does not apply to mental health professionals, however. For Psychologists, the prohibition against engaging in romantic or sexual relationships with past clients lasts for a minimum of five years.

For Mental Health Counselors, Marriage and Family Therapists, Social Workers, Certified Counselors, Certified Advisors, and Agency Affiliated Counselors, the prohibition against engaging in romantic or sexual relationships with past clients lasts forever. That’s right! There is no time limitation. For these license levels, sexual or romantic relationships with former clients are never allowed.

Another factor that hasn't really been explored in this thread is that therapeutic effects can vary over time. Typically the client experiences the greatest sense of elation about having overcome her/his issues close to the conclusion of the acute therapeutic phase. This wellbeing is maintained easily at first but is more likely to wane if/when sessions cease.

In short, the glow wears off after a while.

Putting the rather naive attachment to the therapist aside (he/she really shouldn't cross that boundary, and you shouldn't ask him) CYGMSA must give it time - longer than six months to see if she is fully coping with her emotions/life/issues - before she considers that she is fully fixed, she should have a follow-up session in a few months.

From what I've seen, getting a good therapist (one that works for you) is more difficult than finding a new partner.

@41: "From what I've seen, getting a good therapist (one that works for you) is more difficult than finding a new partner."

Sadly, and feeling like this is a good idea is not a sign that the person has likely learned the lessons that the therapist has attempted to instill in them. Not the best way to avoid codependency, by attaching yourself to the first figure of authority in sight :(

I don't try to venture in the SLLOTD column, but there are always rarities.

Patients shouldn't ask out therapists and vice versa, no matter if it is two hours, two days or two decades after the last visit. The relationship is kind of skewered from the beginning, with a master/sensei structure. I also feel any relationship that has a taboo element like this, which can and should cost a therapist, an attorney their license should be avoided at all cost. I feel the person is falling in love with their profession and skills, not the person. There are plenty of quirky Bernie loving people, that the LW can hook up with, without the patient/client, lawyer/client, professor/student relationship.

@1. I am sorry, but that sounds like unmitigated bullshit. Your little story screams as a lie. First, your "therapist" friend would had a hearing in front of a licensing board for explaining she has romantic feelings toward a patient. Two, She would have licensed revoked for asking him out right after ending their "therapy" together. Third, it sounds like the "Prince of Tides" rather than real life. If your friend was an actual bona ride therapist, I highly doubt she would even get emotionally attach to a client, given any therapists are seeing numerous clients a day. Most are still paying off graduate studies loans, which are more important than what a person is feeling in their loins for a client.

I know posters and yourself will stand up to your story, and validate it, but there are so many things about it that scream a lie. The only possibility is this "therapist" was not licensed, or was some quasi new age therapist/priest who's board certification is a post office box..

My advice is to find someone with the same characteristics as this therapist.

This is a terrible idea to just jump into. LW has no way of knowing if these are actual romantic feelings, or they are just latching onto an authority figure who was there for them in a time of need. The two year suggestion (and law in some places) is there for a reason.

Also, the odds that he is into the LW as well is very small, and if she tries to start a romantic relationship with the guy, she may lose a good therapist who works for her, who she may need in the future.

Bad advice to just go for it, Dan.

@42: My story is true. I know the therapist; she's not a friend of a friend. She's a licensed therapist. This happened close to 30 years ago, so perhaps it wasn't as serious a violation as it would be now, though no doubt it was just never discovered, and it was lucky it all worked out. She still practices. She was briefly my therapist (I agree with truck @41 that finding a good therapist that is the right "fit" for you is at least as hard, for me, and maybe harder for some, than fining a romantic partner, and we didn't "fit" well enough), and has been my close friend's long-time therapist for both individual and group therapy.
She's real; the story might be unethical or unprofessional and I don't think it is repeatable, but it is not fake, whatever else it might be.

I also don't think the therapist will agree to having a personal relationship with his client/former client, not only because it isn't allowed, but also because he likely doesn't share her feelings. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't ask him out. That will give him the opportunity to gently explain erotic transference (which usually fades over time), and professional ethics and the rules of his profession. He can turn her down kindly and gently and they can even continue the theraputic relationship. Or she can wait out the transference. But if she always goes through life thinking "what if . . ." and "I should have . . . " and "if only . . ." I think that's far more hampering to her peace of mind than just going for it and being kindly brought back to reality.

Also, it's not up to the client to police the therapist's behavior. Presumably the therapist is able to control himself and police his own behavior and knows how to turn down advances.

The lw should be made aware that he'll undoubtedly say no, but if she wants to ask him out, she's under no ethical prohibition from doing so.

LavaGirl: I suppose the 2 years that the APA says to wait (versus the other professional licensing and certification organizations, states' laws, etc. positions on length of time to wait) may seem arbitrary. However, erring to the side of caution, since apparently there is some evidence that a sizable percentage of patients return to their therapists within a few months of ending therapy for additional session(s), seems prudent.

The client can do whatever she wants, but this falls squarely within the bounds of "asking out the Barista who's always flirty and nice to me!" As a professional the therapist's job is to create a warm, supportive environment, and warm feelings arise all the time. So do random ethical challenges and legal risks to one's licensure. The therapist would be at significant risk if he allowed himself to go against ethics and date a client.

Unfair, Undead @35. Was Fresh @34 saying they would like to abuse this position of trust, or just enjoy the positive attention?
Also, I am pretty sure it was a joke. Ha ha ha!

@45 "This happened close to 30 years ago, so perhaps it wasn't as serious a violation as it would be now"...

It was a gross and serious violation in Dr. Benjamin Rush's time, and in Freud's time, let alone in 1985-1986. Your story screams of a lie. Non tenured professors get fired from blurting out romantic attraction to a student, no matter if the feelings are mutual or not. A therapist who told a patient they are romantically attracted to them and continue to see them, at least will get a disciplinary hearing in front of a state licensing board. Let alone a serious threat to revoke their professions's board certification. It is pretty much the second rule in any medical or behavioral professional code, after Rule no.#1 :Do no harm.

A therapist goes through years of study and residency, to make sure they don't get emotionally attached to their clients and obsess with their problems. It didn't happened the way you describe it, if this is an actual bona fide couple. I would believe your story if they won the powerball lottery, because the odds would be higher for that, than a therapist falling in love with a client, and risking his or her livelihood in order to date the person..

feret, believe what you want. You don't have to approve and it may have wrong, but this is "an actual bona fide couple."

@feret: Perhaps she quit being his therapist and waited 2 years before asking him out--I never thought to check the timeline. But the basic facts are those I told you. I don't know why I would lie about this. I'm not a therapist. I don't work on a licensing board. I've got no axe to grind in any direction. I've got no vested interest in this lw or her therapist.
Besides, someone does actually win the Powerball.

Sublime Afterglow @39 1st paragraph.
I've noticed this also. Something's up with Dan. Maybe he's trying to make his column more interesting by mixing in a few borderline answers. Maybe he's been too distracted to concentrate sufficiently.

If he has a problem, maybe we could solve it for him.

Also, what's wrong with asking the barista out? I mean, harassing the barista is obviously wrong, and customers should be aware that being nice is part of the barista (or waitress)'s job--especially if they want to get good tips--so that what you think may be a mutual interest may just be professional niceness.

Sure it might be a bit awkward if the barista or the waitress or the therapist turns you down, but so long as the asker isn't a petty, vindictive jerk about it, how is this any different from asking out a fellow student you'll have to see in class later, or someone who lives in the same apartment building or your auto mechanic? It's not up to the asker to decide if the askee wants to or is allowed to accept the invitation.

The problem comes when the person doing the asking is in a position of power above the person being asked out: a boss asking out an employee; a manager asking out someone who works under her; a coach asking out one of the athletes he/she coaches ; a teacher/professor asking out a student; a clergyperson asking out a member of her/his flock, the therapist asking out his client.

@49 (re @35)
I'm pretty sure it was a joke too. I'm also pretty sure that some aspect of ths is basically a job requirement. Someone who finds this kind of stuff from patients too burdensome would probably not last long as a therapist.

@49: I know it's a joke, it's just a particularly stupid one where the punchline is particularly broken people and the teller is still pining for attention from people in a position of power imbalance.

"Ha ha only serious".

@46: "The lw should be made aware that he'll undoubtedly say no, but if she wants to ask him out, she's under no ethical prohibition from doing so."

The LW should primarily be made aware that it's a terrible idea and a threat to his career.

ferret,

All the terrible consequences you list happen when somebody lays a complaint. There isn't a spy from the APA on the other side of a one-way mirror recording all sessions of all therapists everywhere. If nobody complains, nothing happens. Except maybe winning the Powerball.

I know a very nice therapist who dated a client decades ago. She was their couple's therapist and then she dated the man after the couple broke up. Nobody complained and she's still practicing and still going to his parties, which is where I met her. It does happen.

@57: "The LW should primarily be made aware that it's a terrible idea and a threat to his career."
I think that point has been made by now. If the lw chooses to read the comments, she will have been duly enlightened.

It's not the patient's/client's job to protect the therapist from making career-threatening decisions; it's the therapist's job to not make any career-threatening moves. Any therapist should be able to gently decline an invitation should s/he want to. Transference and counter-transference are commonplace, and the therapist can and should explain them when declining. If the client is so distraught that s/he feels s/he must find a different therapist, then that is what will happen--it's called "consequences for one's actions." If the therapist believes that the theraputic relationship has been too compromised by the client's stated romantic/social interest and the therapist can no longer be effective, then the therapist should say so and should stop being the client's therapist. Again, consequences for one's actions.

I have not been a therapist, nor a barista, but I've worked in retail where I was always friendly, and have been asked out by customers I didn't want to date, and I was able to politely decline without it causing world war III, even if I was under no ethical prohibition that kept me from accepting. I just didn't want to date those guys.
Much more disturbingly, when I was a college student, I was approached by two different professors. One was a clear-cut case of sexual harassment, but at the time, there was nothing I could do to report it. I just kept my distance, finally simply withdrawing from class to avoid my professor/harasser. The other time, my very young professor asked me out in such a casual way I think he meant it and didn't stop to realize what he was doing. I told him to please shelve the thought until a full semester had passed after I finished taking his class, and if he was still interested in going surfing (which was his invitation), to ask me again--I think I showed pretty impressive presence of mind for an 18-year-old. He blushed and stammered, as if it hadn't dawned on him that what he was doing was inappropriate, apologized, and didn't ask me out later. I kept on going to his class and got the B+ I earned. No further awkwardness ensued. That was clearly wrong and he should have policed himself, but still, no permanent damage was done.

@58 and others --- well of course if no one complains... As long as the therapist is OK with his/her conscience, that's well & good. But if the relationship ends badly, the ex may decide (or realize) they were taken advantage of, and file a complaint. And THEN the shit hits the fan.

Ferret @50: "A therapist who told a patient they are romantically attracted to them and continue to see them, at least will get a disciplinary hearing in front of a state licensing board."

If someone reported them. If no one did, and the story unfolded in exactly the way NoCute said, then we have a (probably rare, but indeed possible) happy ending here. If people get away with tax evasion and child abuse, why does it surprise you that the people in NoCute's story got away with this victimless crime? I have no reason to doubt NoCute's story.

NoCute @54: "Also, what's wrong with asking the barista out?"

The barista is the face of the coffee shop. Hundreds of people per day see that face. If it's an attractive face, and every customer who finds that face attractive asks its owner out... surely it should be obvious how tedious that could be for someone who's just trying to do their job?

BiDanFan @62: But no matter how attractive a given barista may be, the fact is that not everyone who finds him/her attractive will ask him/her out. A lot of us just aren't the "ask-someone-you-don't-really-know/know-for-sure-likes-you-out" type. Many of us aren't the "ask someone out" type at all. Many of us are content to think, "gee that barista's cute," and do nothing about it.

It seems to me that the biggest problem with asking a barista out is that the barista may feel uncomfortable because in order to get bigger tips, s/he has to be friendly with the customer, who has already misinterpreted that friendliness. Or the rejected would-be suitor may become a jerk about it. But sometimes baristas genuinely flirt with customers; sometimes real relationships have resulted from those countertop exchanges. And no matter what the circumstances are under which two people meet, there is always the possibility that a rejected would-be suitor will be a jerk.

I suppose the "rule" should be that the barista should be the one to do the asking out, since that way it means that the niceness signals a sincere interest, or perhaps that people should be reminded that baristas, like waitresses and salespeople and therapists aren't necessarily your friends just because they're friendly.

And again, it's not the responsibility of the asker-outer to determine now many people are also interested in dating the person s/he's interested in dating, try to decide if all that attention is getting in the way of someone just trying to do their job, and not make a polite request to get together and see a movie sometime. It's an occupational hazard of being attractive if you move through the world--people will ask you out. I don't see why, if done politely, without being obnoxious or repeated, it's so terrible to ask out a person with whom you seem to have rapport. People meet out in the world all the time.

I think lots of us are conflating "ask out" with "badger and harass and stalk," or "impede someone's ability to do their job by forcing unwanted attention on them." I think that learning to politely say, "no, thank you" is a good life skill to learn, and that as long the person doing the asking can hear that without going ballistic, I don't see why the asker should have to second-guess everything that may go into the askee's mindset.

Also a barista-customer relationship could be seen to have a power imbalance. They are servicing you after all, and (a tiny portion of) their livelihood depends on you not being a jerk about being rejected. The situation is totally different with two students or neighbors as they are essentially equals. With a therapist it's even more complicated because there's a power imbalance going both ways. The therapist *is* working for the client (which is why LW's employee joke is not really that funny), and at the same time the client trusts the therapist with information they might not trust any other person in the world with. Sure, there is no "ethical prohibition" against asking any of your service providers out, but it's *not* the same as asking out someone equal to you, and ignoring the context of the situation and the potential risk is at best silly and at worst shitty.

Beginning of thread: Life is short, go for it!

End of thread: Don't hit on people who are attractive and nice because they're sick of it!

Good work, everyone!

And again, it's not the responsibility of the asker-outer to determine now many people are also interested in dating the person s/he's interested in dating, try to decide if all that attention is getting in the way of someone just trying to do their job, and not make a polite request to get together and see a movie sometime. It's an occupational hazard of being attractive if you move through the world--people will ask you out. I don't see why, if done politely, without being obnoxious or repeated, it's so terrible to ask out a person with whom you seem to have rapport. People meet out in the world all the time.

I think lots of us are conflating "ask out" with "badger and harass and stalk," or "impede someone's ability to do their job by forcing unwanted attention on them." I think that learning to politely say, "no, thank you" is a good life skill to learn, and that as long the person doing the asking can hear that without going ballistic, I don't see why the asker should have to second-guess everything that may go into the askee's mindset.

@58 "All the terrible consequences you list happen when somebody lays a complaint. There isn't a spy from the APA on the other side of a one-way mirror recording all sessions of all therapists everywhere."

The APA and other behavioral and medical professions have ethical guidelines for behavioral professionals for reporting violations of colleagues compare to clients who want to complain. I believe make it a violation for a therapist/medical profession to ignore a blatant potential violation of a colleague. A colleague of this alleged therapist from @1 story would most likely get a disciplinary hearing as well for ignoring one of the basic ethical violations of behavioral and medical professionals.
It is that serious of a violation.. up there with not reporting a colleague alleged sexual assault of a patient. A therapist getting romantically involved with a patient pretty much violates the Hippocratic Oath of doing no harm to a client.

So when this alleged happy couple got married from @1 story, No one had qualms about how they dated? how they met? and thought it was a wonderful romantic story? It screams bullshit. It sounds more like the "Prince of Tides", and like a whimsical story, it is not based on reality.

" She was their couple's therapist and then she dated the man after the couple broke up."

If the therapist had a MSW, or were a licensed couples therapist/marriage counselor, I don't know the ethical guidelines. If she were a psychologist and a board certified APA member, she is on black ice.

@21 Yep, RIP Sea Otter, 2009-2016. My password stopped working, and that account was associated with an email address I no longer use. I take it this has been happening to other people?

ferret, the therapist I know isn't "alleged," she's real. I'm sorry she doesn't fit your idea of how a "real" therapist would behave. She doesn't have a Ph.D, but was an MFCC, now an MFT.
The "alleged happy couple" is a real couple. Just because you think it sounds like the plot of some movie doesn't make them not real. I have no idea, not having been one of her colleagues, how her friends reacted to their relationship. I have no idea if they told any professional acquaintances how they'd met.

And since they are still married, with all the normal ups and downs, but primarily "ups" of a long-term marriage, and the man got himself a different therapist to see in a professional, theraputic capacity, even though she doubtless violated some oath, it wasn't the Hippocratic (she's not a a medical doctor and doesn't take it) and it would seem that indeed, she did no harm.

You seem awfully invested in finding a problem where there isn't one in this particular case. It's also getting tedious having you tell me that something which I know to be true isn't when you have no knowledge of these people or their situation.

I'm sorry that when you asked your therapist out, he turned you down, but there's no need to take it out on this couple.

@ Sea Otter or Former Sea Otter or Ghost of Sea Otter, yes the exact same thing happened to me.

@67: Sorry for the double post everyone!

In the state of Washington, you've gotta wait two years. Depending on the body under which the counselor derives their ethical guidelines (American Counseling Assoc., American Psychological Assoc. etc) it's 2 to 5. Generally, in the field, the mantra is "never have sex with your clients" which includes any relationship other than the counseling relationship, not just "sex", whatever that is anyway. This is the only way to ensure an appropriate therapeutic relationship, which always includes what the client's life is like after termination of therapy. Now, in considering Dan's advice, it isn't necessarily unethical to suggest this on Dan's part. Client's can behave however they want, but therapists must adhere to the ethical guidelines and laws that govern the profession. It would be very important, therapeutically, for the therapist to respond to this request with a "no", explain why, and then process why the client feels the therapist is of interest to the client for an intimate relationship. I can guarantee you there is something to be processed and gained here on the part of the client, and a good therapist will see this and navigate it in a way that leads to insight on the part of the client without violating ethical and legal boundaries. For an example of this, which I admit may be borderline, Victor Frankl discusses the value of this kind of attraction in the therapeutic relationship. Therapists must be prepared and equipped to deal with sexual attraction as it is unavoidable, but is also ripe for material to assist in the change process.

Ferret: No one knows how long she waited before asking him out, and there's no reason to think she reported herself, or that her client-cum-spouse reported her, or that anyone else did. Someone breaking a rule and not getting in any trouble if nobody complains is about the least implausible story out there.

Turns out lots of people drive at 48 in a 45 zone without getting a speeding ticket. Crazy, huh?

@64: This. "And again, it's not the responsibility of the asker-outer to determine now many people are also interested in dating the person s/he's interested in dating, try to decide if all that attention is getting in the way of someone just trying to do their job, and not make a polite request to get together and see a movie sometime.

There's a lot of gray area here, but I think you're right. If you're not someone's parent, I'm pretty sure you're not responsible for making sure they're never bored/offended/irritated.

...And I'm not even all that convinced it changes even if you are someone's parent.

You guys are comparing the relationship with a barista to one with a therapist? That is a ridiculous comparison.
The therapeutic relationship is one of deep trust. The therapy room a sanctuary. Here, the client can start to shed their false self, the socially presented one, and begin to look at their inner story.
Bringing sex into this just zaps the
purpose. Both people become vulnerable to each other, yet it's only an hour a week. It's a created situation, not the real world.

The client is way more vulnerable, than someone grabbing a coffee.
And it's this vulnerability that creates the power imbalance.
If there is no emotional connection with the therapist, then it is not going to be very effective therapy. That's why the therapist has these rules to abide by. Because once the therapy gets underway, both people enter the client's emotional world, and all sorts of emotions can come up. It becomes very unpredictable.

@73 "No one knows how long she waited before asking him out"

From @1's account.. I will list the violations

"told him she couldn't continue to see him in a professional capacity because of her (reciprocated) feelings"

This will get a therapist a disciplinary hearing, the worst: lost of license, the best: probation and a stern reprimand.. A very high chance of losing board certification, which means work opportunities are nil to none..

" and as soon as he terminated her services, asked him out. "

This is clear cut disciplinary hearing for both a state licensing board and a Certification agency..

Here is the AAMFT code of ethics, these are pretty much on top of "Thou shall not commit"

http://tinyurl.com/jlflgvz

1.4 Sexual Intimacy with Current Clients and Others.
Sexual intimacy with current clients or with known members of the client’s family system is prohibited.

1.5 Sexual Intimacy with Former Clients and Others.
Sexual intimacy with former clients or with known members of the client’s family system is prohibited.

"They recently celebrated their 26th wedding anniversary."

So for 25-30 years this "therapist" didn't report her ethical dilemma to a state licensing board or a board certification peer group? That is also a gross violation and pretty much will lose the "therapist" a license..

So 4 huge violations in one story.. however they lived happily ever after, the end..

It is not a rule, @73, it is a huge, huge violation to the foundations of a professional counselor, it is up there with ripping off a client financially, sexually harassing or sexually assaulting a client.

Therapist don't work in vacuums, they are being constantly supervised by superiors, who audit their work, a MFA has something like 2000 hours of supervision, and even when achieved their state license and board certification, they are being monitored for their work. Declaring Romantic feelings to a patient, (or one part of a former couple) as a MFA is one of the gravest violations one can do as a MFA.

If this happily married "therapist" thought 30 years after the start of her relationship will protect her from a disciplinary hearing. Guess again. It is still a huge violation, that time doesn't erase.

The story is bullshit, or if this alleged happy marriage happen between the competent but lovesick marriage therapist and her spouting undying love patient, She won't be a marriage counselor.

It is not the same analogy as a moving violation ticket. It is more like ripping off a client. The rules are there to protect the integrity of all licensed behavioral and medical professionals, not to be bend and think there are exemption, if the patient is a hotty, or has lots of girth in their jeans..

Back to SLLOTD, it is a really bad idea to ask one's therapist out, given they are risking their license in hesitating with an answer, and lose it if the therapist says yes.

69- Sea Otter -- I used to be Crinoline and am now Fichu for the reason you state.

Regardless of the cute story they probably have, it still makes me think less of the therapist in their professional career and life if they found it a good idea to approach their patient and not send them away, no matter the outcome.

I'm a therapist with 20 years' experience. My clients have crushes on me. I have crushes on them. There are people I have worked with who could have been my close friends. There are clients I have deeply loved in the context of the therapeutic relationship, and that is why they are still alive. Therapy is not a second-class relationship. It is as powerful and primary as other major relationships. However, it works because there are limits. I can't give someone all that focused attention, skill, or love if I also have to get my needs met in a healthy relationship, and I often can't do it for more than a few hours a week for the same person. It's its own thing. It sounds like LW's situation was counseling, not therapy, and it doesn't really sound like transference is going on, just an enjoyable attraction of people who like each other. The LW should ask, for sure, if they want to, and I hope the therapist handles it with grace and care (and declines). In therapy, everything my client sees of me is me, real, genuine and authentic, but it is not ALL of me. It's probably the best of me, and I suspect my wife would agree. Often I have people who did counseling with me come back later for therapy, and I am delighted to see them. When people tell me they have feelings for me, I am honored and touched, and I try to handle it with deep respect for their feelings, their dignity, and the truth of the caring feelings I have for them. When they tell me they wish we could be friends, I sometimes wish that too. But if we were friends, we wouldn't be therapist and client, and that's also a precious and rare relationship. I've never converted one to the other, and I don't regret that. It's not a good idea.

I really hope you read the comments, Dan. I love your work, but this called for a referral to an ethics professional or at least a licensed behavioral health professional. It is entirely inappropriate. Not only because the therapist could lose his license and be fined (which would very likely happen) but because the therapeutic relationship is designed to support the client. They have had multiple sessions where only her needs and growth have been addressed. Even if there weren't any regulations about this, it's a poor situation to attempt a romantic relationship. Thank goodness for the regulations, they have kept people from unwittingly becoming predators. This comes from a person who loves to break rules who is also a licensed therapist that will always follow the APA guidelines and regulations.

It's a good idea to talk to your therapist about your feelings and understand what they mean and where they are coming from. But it's the therapist's job to help you with that understanding , derive any life lessons from them, and keep the therapy on track. Dating the therapist is a bad, bad idea, and although Dan is usually on-track 100 percent, this is a huge miss. Different jurisdictions have different restrictions, but the restrictions are generally considered to be some version of, "Don't. But if you must, at least wait." And there are good reasons for this including the fact that, likely, the LW knows nothing about whom the therapist actually is.

Many people fall in love with their therapists because therapists listen, and that feels good. Feels like deep empathy. Therapists point out things that patients haven't seen, which makes them seem smart, strong, caring. And yes, therapists can develop feelings for patients, but we (yup, I'm one) go to great lengths to not let that interfere with the professional relationship which the patient has entered into in good faith, and with some vulnerability.

Unfortunately, some therapists exploit patients, and even when the therapist has no such intention, it's very hard to shift from a therapeutic relationship to a romantic one, or even a friendship.

If you love your therapist romantically, as a person, would you really want to ask him to put his license at risk?

Given that most relationships, even though they start out with both people thinking the other is the bees knees don't end up working out, do you really want to sacrifice the experience of a positive therapeutic experience for something that has a pretty remote chance of working out?

What if you need to go back to therapy?

Are you prepared to feel rejected by your therapist, who knows you deeply and intimately, if after a couple nights of passion, things don't work out?

Both therapists and patients are people, and as such are subject to behavior changing when the heat of an intimate relationship fans the flames. The employee who would "never" file a sexual harassment complaint against his hot boss with whom he began a consensual relationship with often changes his mind when the relationship goes south. Are you (both) prepared for the potential damage?

Are you prepared for the disappointment that inevitably goes along with learning the imperfections of someone you've put on a pedestal?

@76, 78. Well then, she got away with it. 29 or 30 years later, I guess I should report her. Probably a bit late, since she's about to retire.
It's not as if she repeated the violation.
it's not something that jeopardized the relationship between her and any other clients.
It seems to have done neither one of them harm and I don't think her husband would consider himself to have been abused or sexually assaulted--no doubt you'd disagree and say he suffers from Stockholm Syndrome.
It's as if we're talking about someone who cheated on their taxes one year, didn't get audited, and then used the money to give their kid a birthday party with a pony. Sure, it was wrong, but it's not comparable to being Charles Manson and manipulating impressionable young women into committing murder.

Like it or not, ferret and undead ayn rand, she got away with it. No one but you two seem to be bothered, and ferret is bothered way out of proportion.

@79: Ravelyn, that was beautifully said. I didn't realize that counseling and therapy were substantially different (i.e. no transference in counseling). What is the distinction?

Yes, many people fall for their therapists. LW needs to know she's not the first nor likely be the last. Something she needs to think about is how she feels about this therapist being equally nice, funny and Bernie-loving with everyone else who darkens his door. Will she be able to handle having a relationship with this guy knowing that he is presumably treating the rest of his clients with the same care and attention that she received. Is she secure enough in herself to not be jealous that those clients are receiving that attention? Is she willing to trust that he wouldn't date any of the other clients that will ultimately fall for him? Because she's going to have to be able to put away potential jealousy and amp up the trust of she wants to go out with this guy. And that might be hard considering he could no longer reassure her that he doesn't date clients.

If the therapist is a good one and maintained appropriate boundaries, then the feelings the client has toward that therapist are not about the therapist at all. Paying someone to spend time with you who tells you virtually nothing about themselves and who follows professional protocols when sitting with you and responding to your (and exclusively your) life stories for a limited, controlled, and prescribed amount of time which they alone are in control of ending and directing is not a romantic relationship. And thank the gods for that.

From a psychiatrist's perspective: It's not only quite normal, but also quite expected, for a patient to fall in love with his or her therapist (look up "erotic transference"). It's happened to me countless times. The patient is, of course, falling in love with his or her idealized version of the therapist. I can't speak for non-medical doctors, but for psychiatrists, it's strictly prohibited to date any patient, no matter how short the therapeutic relationship or how long it's been since that relationship was terminated. There are many reasons for this but in my opinion, the most important is that the power dynamic between the patient and therapist is very skewed, and there are many different ways a psychiatrist could manipulate or take advantage of a patient if he or she chose to do so.

The letter writer should feel free to ask her therapist out on a date. However, if I were her I would keep my expectations at zero. Either the therapist will decline the date (as the therapist should); or the therapist will accept the date, risking his professional license and potentially endangering this patient's future mental health. Any responsible and respectable therapist would refuse to date a current or former patient. Again, perhaps the criteria for MDs are more stringent than for other licensed therapists, but this would be absolutely prohibited in my training.

@79 Ravenlyn, what a beautiful post. Yes, I remember back to my five years with my therapist and pure love enters my heart. It can be a significant life relationship.

@82: Only bothered that it's being suggested anecdotally as a reason why someone should pursue, completely ignoring all the reasons why it's considered a severe breach of trust, ethics and power for a licensed therapist to date their clientele. Undoubtedly with enough times attempted it could work out among a few, but it's irresponsible to the health of the LW to suggest that it's at all likely to end well.

@20: looooooool

Wow, really batting a thousand lately Dan. Wrong again, for all the reasons named above. But beyond this specific letter, the poor advice you've been giving lately seems to me to all have a common thread, and that is "follow your gonads!" Feel like cheating on your husband just because "the magic is gone?" Go for it! Hormones and boredom never lead one astray! Girl setting up paying dates at work? No problem - if it leads to sex that means it's good! Maybe you could ponder the idea that humans do have other organs, at least one of which is specifically adapted to decision making, and that our balls and ovaries are not the source of all wisdom.

I agree with the folks saying a wait few months at least. You need to make sure you're feelings are real and not stemming from having someone actually listen to you and treat you with compassion. And if you do go through with it, prepare yourself for rejection.

I'm a therapist. And while I find it flattering when clients see me as a person they would like outside of my office, they really should ask my partner and kids for a more nuanced sense of what I might be like to date. As a therapist, I can empathize with virtually anything. Not so much when I'm at home.

I often find commonalities with my clients. But, I know that if we were to get into an emotionally committed relationship, eventually we would hit into the gridlock and conflict and challenges of any other relationship. I would dread having the threat of losing my license hanging over every relationship struggle and argument, should my client who said they had no qualms about dating their therapist suddenly decide that my dishwasher-loading habits suddenly changed their minds!

Even if it is the therapist's responsibility to know and maintain ethics in regards to dating a client, I think advice to LW should include that a therapist who agrees to a sexual relationship is a major red flag! I mean really, so LW "goes for it" and the therapist does too- I would think good advice to the LW would include why such a dynamic is problematic for a romantic/sexual relationship and what to consider/watch out for in terms of red flags. As is it reads like "see if you can seduce the forbidden fruit and have some hot sex hell you're gonna dry up soon anyway!" I'm tired but I think I made my point....

Us "senior citizen" readers love "the short amount of time you have left on the planet". I figure that must give me permission to do pretty much whatever I want.

As a therapist, I've heard horror stories of clients being sexually/romantically inappropriately involved with their therapists and it's no joke. The therapist/client relationship, no matter how brief, no matter how close the client feels, is ultimately a lopsided relationship where one person knows everything about the other and not vice-versa.
Tons of folks crush on/fall in love with their therapists, but of course you do! Someone who listens to you and accepts you regardless of all the shit in your past! But your therapist is not your friend. You know very little about them and if any therapist agrees to date a client they are abusing their power and really need to deal with their own shit.
Maybe notice your patterns of falling in love/crushing on unavailable people instead of asking them out.

@71, @77 I'm in good company then!

You are free to ask your therapist out and date him with no legal consequences....however the same is not true for him. He could lose his license if a colleague or anyone else reports it. Also, while your perception of your rapport and chemistry may be accurate, there is still a power imbalance. He's there to meet your needs and so, doesn't put forth his own. You also only know 1 side of him and even therapists who share some personal details, aren't giving you the full picture. The therapeutic relationship is purposely designed that way, so that the focus is on the client. Even if it is seemingly surface-level-- "he just gave me a few tools", clients can be deeply impacted on an emotional level. Should he end the relationship, or cheat, or.....any # of other things that can happen in romantic relationships, the impact could be more harmful. It's normal to fall for your therapist...it can even be a positive sign, but the goal in therapy isn't to act on those feelings with the therapist, it's to know that it's possible to have that experience in RL. I speak as a Licensed Professional Counselor as well as client who has had more than 1 crush on my therapists.

Thank you to all the therapists who have jumped on the thread. I think I've fallen in love with all of you already.

@79: Wow, beautifully put.

I very much believe that a therapeutic relationship can offer a very rare degree of intimacy. The urge to turn it into something sexual is entirely human but renders it mortal. Wise therapists know this.

More simply put: our relationships can be much more than the sum of our (naughty) parts.

As a former counselor I can say people falling for their therapists happens ALL THE TIME. It's pretty much to be expected.

She can ask him out, but if he has any sense, both ethically and professionally, he will say no.

Also, odds are he most likely has no interest. From the other side it's not an easy dynamic to change even if you are attracted to them. And being attracted to a client is something you are trained to be very self aware of and lock down tight. But it's easy for a client to take your concern and care for something it isn't.

So the odds that he is attracted back are small. And if he is odds are he has compartmentalized those feelings into a box that is never going to be reopened. And even if he could it is unlikely he will risk his career over it.

So ask if you must, but he SHOULD say no.