I'll bet my bottom dollar that he brought the booze with the premeditated intention of using it to remove or inhibit people's ability to say 'no' to him.

Or in the very least, an invite to the party at all.

Future reference, party of this size, everyone agrees the night is over, you help the asshole load his booze into his mode of transportation, and drive around the block and come back when he's gone and resume the festivities.

I'm not entirely buying LW's story. It sounds like she's leaving things out, or embellishing or something.

How hard is it for everyone to say no to a person that everyone doesn't want there and everyone feels uncomfortable with?

So if I'm getting this all straight, the groupsex disaster was in small part because everyone was doing their best to keep a comedy of manners going.

@3 As @1 points out, buying all the booze for the after party does make it more difficult for other people to say, "Hey...thanks for all the booze. Now GTFO." I imagine she was also a bit more coy about her demands for no penetration than she writes, in no small part because booze. And, they probably chalked the first violation up to a boozy misjudgment and were willing to let it go because booze.

I agree with Dan, boozy/shitfaced multiples are not great ideas. Sure have a drink or two to calm nerves...but not more than the point where you could get pulled over for driving drunk.

Urgutha: My guess is that these people are pretty young, and probably pretty broke, given housing prices in Vancouver. This guy clearly saw that some shenanigans were about to happen, wanted in on the action, as Biggie says, and offered to buy a bunch of booze in order to be included. Once there, he was excluded. From what QUEEN says, everyone but Persistent Dick Monster (PDM) was well up for sex with each other. I'm not sure what they expected PDM to do -- watch? take video? -- but under the circumstances they probably just didn't even think about it. Yes, guys who've been told they can watch sometimes try their luck, thinking that maybe if you're just a little more drunk or turned on, you won't care whose dick joins in. I think everybody involved was thinking with the wrong head.

I agree they should report PDM to the police. A sexual assault charge is unlikely to go anywhere, but a broken nose can be medically confirmed.

A strategy for dealing with pricks like these? Don't invite them to sex afterparties if no one intends to have sex with them.

Urgutha and others, I buy the story. People are deeply socialized to not cause unpleasant attention or embarrassment to the point that they will literally have a heart attack in public for fear of announcing that they need medical care. The more extroverted or cranky of us may have a hard time understanding what this feels like, but it's true. People very often take the path of least resistance, so they kept accommodating, thinking they could solve this problem. Women are even more socialized to be this way. And people in a party when everyone is having a good time, when they are horny, when they are distracted by pleasure, when they are drunk, are always likely to show bad judgement. I can totally see how this woman decided to scold the guy, redirect, let it pass in order to not spoil all the fun. No one wanted to cause a big bummer scene, except dick monster that is. Also, some horny guys really do just push, push, push, well beyond what is acceptable in most people's minds, and yet they do it all the time. I think they really and truly don't understand boundaries.

Also this might be a slightly controversial thing to say, but some assaults like this (ones where you know you aren't in any real danger but where someone is just really persistent and disrespectful) just aren't traumatic for a lot of people, even though they might be super traumatic for others. This woman sounds like she's annoyed and disrespected- absolutely no fun at all and a major violation. She wants to prevent it in the future. But she's not traumatized, and you can see how she'd weigh that against the risk of causing a big scene and spoiling all the fun. She probably went with redirection in the hopes that he'd change his behavior and the fun could continue and the big scene would be avoided. It's easy to analyze later, but in the moment -when you're horny, when you're thinking of others' pleasure too, when your intoxicated- it can be tricky. And sure, handsy persistent guys will often simply not take the redirection, and they force you into making a choice between taking a hard action (get out, leave the room, call for help) or just going with it to keep the cool. This is not an unfamiliar situation for most women, especially if they partied young, etc.

The biggest take-away here: don't mix sex and drinking. THAT is what really screwed things up besides that asshole. If they hadn't all been at least a bit drunk, they all would have dealt with this asshole easier. And BTW: I agree with @1.

When the situation is manipulated to look like your choice is to be the buzzkill or to just pretend that you actually are OK with what's happening, it's not even a little surprising that some young women, especially, choose to just let it go. We're taught to, in a million ways.

And guys like this were either taught, or learned on their own, to take advantage of it. They don't care that when the night is over, nobody will want to have anything more to do with them, because they have no plans to actually have friendships or relationships with any of their, well, of their victims.

Something I learned very young was to always have fuck-you money so I wasn't depending on a ride home from an asshole, and to always pay my own way. It makes it a lot easier to say no.

Holy shit.

It seems likely that this guy purchased the alcohol in order to be invited to the after party. He recognized that being the provider of drinks was his ticket to hang out given his looks and popularity. Clearly, he hoped that the after party would include sex and that being invited to the party was his invitation to play too.

If there was a group decision that sex with him was off the table, the group should have made that clear and offered to repay him for the alcohol and/or let him take what was left, or decided to hang out drink the alcohol and not have sex.

@5,6,

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. She may have been shitfaced to the point where her "stern talk" with him may have been more like a slurred "getthefuhoff..."

I love this line:

For a reason none of us can understand, we didn't kick him out.

I'll bet I understand the reason: Drunk

Dan, may we add PDM to the official SL vocabulary?

@10. Yup.

And alcohol bad. As a person who did the swingers group sex thing, nope nope nope.

Dan hit this one out of the park. Seriously, if you don't want to f.ck the guy don't invite him. Obviously what he did was pure assault and not forgivable, but it's d1ckish to bring him along so he can fund the booze for your good times and cut him out.

Would it be reasonable etiquette to expect some form of identification from everybody involved? Or too weird? I'm not up on moresoming.

Yeah he totally provided the booze with the idea of getting in and making himself more awkward to kick out. I like the BYO idea, and in general not accept​ing favors from PDMs.

PDM hyperlink: ha ha.

1) Don't drink and fuck.
2) Don't stick your dick in ugly.
3) Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

Yeah, no one wants to be the mean middle school girl and be like: "hey, let's all exclude that person," but you really need to do it when there's group sex involved, otherwise it's not a good time. There's no way around it, you just gotta get better at preemptively excluding people you don't want to fuck - mean girl the shit out of it! All the gossip, all the sneaky, all the talking about people behind their backs, all the allying with your boyfriend or the one or two people you do wanna fuck and being like "I'm not coming back to your place if that guys' there, unless you're gonna fuck him in another room outta my sight..." do what you gotta.

Agree completely with Emma @7, Sublime @11 and DarkHorse @14.

All I'll add is that Host bears some responsibility for this fiasco. If not Host's idea, it was certainly Host's final decision to invite PDM along for the specific purpose of getting free booze. Host also should have kept an eye on the group dynamics between people whom he all presumably knew, but who didn't know each other. Host should have pulled PDM away at the first consent violation, let him know that his behaviour was Not Cool, reimbursed him for the alcohol and sent him on his way.

QUEEN, if this has happened to you more than once, it may be a sign that you should be a bit choosier about the afterparty company you keep. Or host your own parties, and invite only those people you want to bang.

What's the etiquette? I see nothing amiss with 'we don't want to have group sex with you. Please leave'.

I don't understand how you would be in a position of wanting to have group sex with everyone except one person and then go on to HAVE group sex IN FRONT of the person you don't want to have sex with - it's utterly mental. Surely if they are creeping you out enough not to want to have them join in - surely them watching will be equally as creepy. I am with whoever called the LW out for playing a dick move by accepting the free alcohol but then acting like cliquey assholes WHILST having group sex IN FRONT of the fella. If you don't like, don't invite, however if he's there - refrain from a group free for all in front of him in case he mistakenly believes he can join in. Not condoning the fellas actions by the way but think the LW's behavior is weird.

Yes they shouldn't have done this when he was there in the first place. The etiquette, Harriet, is better planning ahead. Spontaneous group sex might be fun, but only if it's totally the right vibe with the right people. Otherwise, plan ahead.

But I disagree slightly with the people who keep saying"if no one wants to fuck him" since A) we don't know that this is true. There were two other men and a woman there, and while the LW did say that they all preferred that Dick Monster be there, she did not mention who was willing to do what with whom. So it could go either way. and B) the LW was not willing to "fuck" anyone if by "fuck" you mean consent to PIV or anal. That was not an exclusion just for Dick Monster but for the other two guys as well. Only Dick Monster had a problem with it.

Regardless he's an ass, regardless the situation was handled poorly from the beginning, but it's questionable whether or not Dick Monster could have just followed the rules and had fun like everyone else. We don't have info that says otherwise.

Emma @22: I think we do know it's true that no one wanted to fuck (by "fuck" I mean "do sexy things with," not "have penetrative sex with" -- that's how we queers use the term) PDM. If someone else had been keeping him busy, his dick wouldn't have found its way back to the arse of someone who'd previously turned him away. QUEEN does say that neither she nor the other woman present was interested; that leaves the two guys, and I think the odds are good that all the men in this story are straight.

It seems like the final straw for the host was the physical assault, which is beyond fucked up, since sexual assault is so much worse in my book than getting punched int he nose.

@23 Actually on second reading, I think there were only two guys total- Dick Monster and the LW's gf. See what you think. If so, then your assertion is even more valid. It means that basically we've gone from group sex to a couple that wanted a female third and let another guy (who is not the third's lover) tag along just because he bought beer which (in retrospect) I think was the interpretation of events other people were responding to here. I'm just slow to walk down that path.

(And I get what you meant by "fuck" but I didn't see anywhere in the letter where anything else was mentioned as off limits.)

I never, ever thought I would say this.

I am so happy I'm no longer the type of person who gets invited to these parties.

Tea parties, yes. Sex parties, most definitely not.

@25/EmmaLiz: There were two women and three men. "I'm a queer girl living in Vancouver with my male partner. This weekend we [LW and her boyfriend] found ourselves in an after-hours club, made some friends and ended up at a house with two other guys [two guys other than LW's boyfriend] and a girl."

In any event, I think this was a good scenario - etiquette for playing in groups - for Dan to explore, because my guess is that this happens with young, somewhat inexperienced non-monogamous people, where no one is quite sure that sex will happen until it basically starts happening, and when it does there is a realization that no one want to play with someone who was (for whatever reason) invited along.

Of course, the consent violation could have happened even if both women were interested in playing with this man, and how to address that is an important separate issue.

@25 we found ourselves in an after-hours club, made some friends and ended up at a house with two other guys and a girl.

I count 3 guys and 2 girls

I think, if you want to pick up randos, you have to accept that you're gonna roll snakeyes sometimes. I would probably say it's not worth it, if you play enough you'll probably meat, i dunno, a total of SIX dudes in Vancouver who are down to not commit a sex crime? I'm not you but a rotation of six people sounds like enough.

Sublime @27: Agreed. These young people need to learn about the Pervy Activity Liaison (PAL) system.

Emma @25: QUEEN says
"We all wanted him gone to get the show on the road but he wouldn't take the hint. ... Neither I [n]or the other girl was interested."
So basically this guy was mentioned as being off limits. They didn't fancy him. They didn't want to interact sexually with him in any way. They just wanted to drink his booze... which, as many have mentioned, is a dick move.
Not that selfish, immature people deserve rape. But they probably should learn to be a bit less selfish and immature.

Report him to the after-hours club. Chances are that someone will recognize him. Even if you decide not to press charges, the club can decide to not allow him in in the future.

@31 BDF and the others, yup you are right. I guess I was trying to make the situation more generous in the beginning. Dick move, yup, probably more from awkwardness than intentional dickishness but still dick move. There's no way for that to end well. Probably better planning could avoid this.

I was never really in situations like this as I'm way too much of a control freak so my only experiences with spontaneous multi-person sexual experiences were either planned or with people I really already knew and trusted. What is the etiquette, as Harriet asked, for this sort of thing- when you meet at a party but aren't into one or more of the group? Assuming Dick Monster weren't an asshole assaulter but just somehow otherwise unappealing- what do you do? Let him play too to be nice? Ugh. Be the bummer and cut him out a la Mean Girls? Buzz kill. Certainly don't let him buy the booze in the first place, but what else? How do you shake off an unwanted hanger on? Exchange numbers and meet up with the others later?

It sucks that Lw was sexually assaulted. It also sucks that they didn't even kick the assaulter Out after the fact only because he had bought the booze. It also sucks that they all invited someone they didn't want to fuck just because they wanted his booze, then proceeded to have group sex right in front of him and actually expected him to either vanish or settle with watching.
It all sucks. I hope next time they plan everything in advance or at least learn to organize a little bit better.

There's just so many things bad here. The booze, the sexual assaults, THREE TIMES (!!!), then the physical assault, violent enough to break LW's bf's nose. AND there THIS "....put his BARE dick inside..."!!!! Were they having unprotected sex with people the just met?

I keep wondering about the timing and relative awkwardness/creepiness of DM. I mean, maybe the guy seemed okay before he bought the booze, only to turn into a right creeper as soon as he had an 'in' to their little afterparty? I mean, if they had 'ew, ick' feelings before they were all cloistered together, why even let him in? Just because of the booze? I don't get it. But then, I'm not that much of a drinker, and I much rather remember my wild sexual exploits clearly the day after, so...

Ah youth. It's pretty amazing what we'll tolerate in order to drink free booze. Been there, done that. To the extent that age brings wisdom, it's the assurance that you no longer have to play nice with a complete jerk who happens to have enough cash on hand to cater the party.

@22. EmmaLiz. I know that's the etiquette--to plan. The group seems to be meeting on a space that's ambiguously public / private--'an after-hours club'. It seems it isn't public enough for there to be drink they can all buy; but the event hasn't been set up by a host, and responsibility didn't clearly rest with someone who could say to the unwanted guy, 'it's time for you to get out'.

Or is there a host who missed, or who wasn't called in after, the first violation? Other people might have a better idea of how this club is set up than me....

Maybe one takeaway is that the LW should herself take the lead in hosting events, having the right amount of alcohol available, screening participants. She is feisty and assertive normally; what's got to her, and why she's written in, is that she was unable to follow through on her strong queer feminist values in this instance.

As to the wisdom of spontaneous grouping ... I'm not against it (I think). Four of the people in this situation, only two of whom knew each other well for sure, got happily 'playful' on a basis of consent. The LW said she wasn't in the mood for vaginal or anal penetration, and the other woman and two guys accepted it as such--plenty of other things they could do. I think back to how 'liberated' I was in my early 20s--much less so, much more constrained. (My experience with group sex is more tentative than the LW's seems to be, all, to begin with, in public places with no women around). It's a good thing, for me, that people (queers) are now​ thoughtfully having sex in impromptu groups. But yes, after this incident, maybe more thought and planning yet are required.

Harriet @38: They met at a club, but went to a private home for the four-way-with-unwanted-fifth-wheel action:
"This weekend we found ourselves in an after-hours club, made some friends and ended up at a house with two other guys and a girl."

@39. BiDanFan. Yes--you're right. So probably this wasn't a club with a night set aside for people seeking group sex.

'Keep the contacts of people you have good group sex with'. That seems another good piece of advice. I hope the LW is as angry at, but no more traumatised by, the assault(s) as she sounds. I think she's all set to start taking people's well-informed and -meant guidance to heart.

Oh, another thing.

IMHO, the PDM should have realized he wasn't wanted and went home. True, he bought the booze but he would have gotten two things in return. First, he would have learned that the other people, including the LW, weren't his type of people and he could move on. Second, he would have held the moral high ground. They would be the "bad people", not him. As it stands his attempts to leverage what he did for them makes him, well, a PDM.

RE being taught to be nice:

It’s a little more complicated than that. There’s some strategy behind it.

Ordinary Rando Hello pretty lady, may I grab your pussy?
Pretty Lady Thanks for the offer, but no.
OR Okay then. Just thought I’d ask.
PL No worries! How ’bout them Cowboys?

vs

Persistent Dick Monster [grabs pretty lady’s pussy]
PL [grins nervously]
PL Oh my! You are forward, aren’t you? Here, hold my drink for a moment while I pop into the little girls’ room to freshen up. I want to be able to give you my full attention, sweetheart!

When someone isn’t behaving normally and respectfully, you worry about what will happen if they get upset. (They might, for instance, break your nose, or your friend’s nose.) So you try polite avoidance. Paradoxically, the worse a guy behaves, the more delighted you might [superficially] appear.

Depending on your history, priorities and ability to defend yourself in the moment, you might even decide to agree to sex with PDM just so that you can get away from him safely afterwards.

RE evo-psych and reproductive strategies: OR in the first scenario just got turned down, but he handled it graciously. He demonstrated himself to be safe and respectful. He has actually passed a test. PL made an effort to make him feel comfortable and continued the interaction. It’s very possible that OR will get another chance with PL, or with one of her friends.

PDM, on the other hand, by ignoring boundaries might succeed in getting laid that night... but will not easily get access to PL or her friends again.

Are you all seriously saying that NONE of you have ever met, hung out with new people in a group, thought you liked all of them well enough, went to an after party where things got a bit more turned up (not even necessarily sexually, just that you got to spend a bit more direct time with a smaller more focused group of people), and THEN you started realizing that one of them isn't quite meshing to your tastes as well as you'd like? I mean, especially when young, not everyone has the laser acuity to immediately and unwaveringly parse out "okay but no" from "fuckable at least this one time" or "fuckable on a repeat basis".

Also, especially when young, it might be equally tough to navigate the social awkwardness of "we were wrong, upon hanging out more in a less crowded setting, we don't actually wanna fuck this one guy, but the rest of you are OK," especially if that one guy ALSO was the only one to buy the booze. I honestly don't know if I would have thought of the "pretend to wind down the party, everyone makes going-home motions so the one guy leaves, then everyone else doubles back and good/fun group sex can be had" ploy when I was in my early 20s or so. That's clever and probably face-saving in a number of ways, but not all college-age kids are so clever. Heck, not all older people are so clever, either.

Scribbles @43: I don't think ANYONE is saying that.
QUEEN wrote in saying that something had gone terribly wrong and asking what she could do to avoid that situation in future. We're all answering.

Scribbles @43 and BDF @44, actually yes - I said exactly that @37. Been there, done that...found myself in quite similar "DUH! How did I manage to get stuck in this?!" situations...at approximately the same age, both with and without good friends in tow. As the old saying goes: experience is the best teacher, but unfortunately we learn more from the bad ones than from the good ones.

Cap @45: Isn't "been there, done that" saying that you HAVE "ever met, hung out with new people in a group, thought you liked all of them well enough, went to an after party where things got a bit more turned up (not even necessarily sexually, just that you got to spend a bit more direct time with a smaller more focused group of people), and THEN you started realizing that one of them isn't quite meshing to your tastes as well as you'd like?"

Scribbles was asserting that NONE of us had ever copped to being in such a situation.

I certainly have, as well. Fortunately without anal rape :(

@43: "Are you all seriously saying that NONE of you have ever met"

I'd say most of us have had a "get the fuck out" moment where something just wasn't right with a party we didn't know quite well. So no, that's not what "all" of us are saying.