750 square feet, that's a pretty big brooklyn apartment! Most young couples I knew in NYC were living in half that much space.

I can't fathom why your dad would smack your butt in public (or in private), but the only reaction that really matters is if he respects your boundary going forward. It sounds like you're still angry over that or more likely other things from your past. It sounds like you blame him for his living situation in some manner (I don't see much difference between choosing to a 'bohemian' living cheaply in asia than choosing to be an artist living expensively in NYC).

Ultimately, it won't work out for you until you figure out how to let go of your existing anger. You might need to work things out with your dad, or go to a therapist, both, or something else altogether. But you can't reconcile while holding on to your own anger.

Also, side note: Almost certainly, working-class artists is an oxymoron. You might be struggling, or poor, or only make 45k between the two of you, but that isn't what makes someone working class. I know it's important to differentiate yourself from other, more entitled white people; but no one likes a slummer.

In manner the father and daughter are antipathetic to each other. 'Boundary'--I'd guess he hates the term--finds it cold, unloving. All the things it's been a big deal to her to find, as she's crafted and fallen upon an identity, like the art, her marriage, her friendships, her queer politics, whatever interest in people and psychology she has, her psychological and political vocabulary--all these things are things he dislikes. Or doesn't value, doesn't rate, construes only really as a rejection of him.

The father wants love in a pretty naked way but will settle for attention. Actually, he may respond well if she treats him with respect. I don't think she should make the effort at all to get him to see the world from her perspective, to explain her life-choices, even word-choices, to get him interested in her life. He's not receptive because--narcissistically--he thinks it's about him. Instead, maybe she should take the lead in setting the terms of their relationship in a respectful, sober way. Why doesn't she suggest dates for his coming to stay? And make them non-negotiable. And make other things non-negotiable, too--like how much her wife is involved (not all the time, if understandably her wife would rather not), where they go out to dinner, when he goes. And she should talk about him--after all, beneath it all can they really be that different?

Her father acts like a spoiled child. She should tell him so whenever he does ("How old are you? When are you going to start acting your age?"), and refuse any contact until he agrees to behave like an adult/stop all contact whenever he starts behaving like a child again.

Artist? I've seen her finger paintings and they suck.

There seems to be two disjunctive parts to this letter. The first part includes a bunch of facts that don't seem relevant to anything and then BADDAD's issues with the state of her relationship. However, inappropriate and bizarre it was for BADDAD's dad to spank her butt, her reaction, other than don't do that again, seems disconnected to this act.

Stripping away many of those facts, BADDAD is queer and proud, BADDAD's dad is straight and may have been a poor father, he may be a narcissist, or may not have been as understanding as possible when raising a queer daughter, but BADDAD sounds like she's letting loose with a long held grievances, which may account for her dad not understanding her perspective.

Based on this letter its hard to tell whether BADDAD's anger is wholly justified by her father's actions and behavior. BADDAD has a sister in California, but fails to mention anything about her relationship with her sister, or about her sister's relationship with the father. Why? And why does Dan suggest an involved course of action that doesn't suggest reaching out to her sister? Surely, her sister can act as a sounding board concerning their father. Why didn't BADDAD mention speaking to her sister about any of this? Based on this, I have to disagree with Dan. I think BADDAD needs to talk to someone professionally about her feelings before taking any course of action toward her father. BADDAD's father may be highly imperfect, but BADDAD comes across to me as having her own issues.

I see this letter as one written by a sad person who despite best attempts is still unable to connect with their father. And while LW may have issues, after all who doesn’t, I would go on to assume that this life long struggle and is mostly the father’s fault.

His remoteness, manipulative nature, being so full of himself and having unrealistic expectations from his own child are not likely to change any time soon. And I suspect dad managed to get away with much of it because of the guilt he instilled in his offspring over the years.

She has every right to refuse hosting him and reject any of his plans for her that don’t make sense, and are likely to cause further pain.
Upcoming father’s day can be a great opportunity to send him another one of those meaningless “Best Dad Ever” cards, along with a letter explaining that based on past interactions and his unwillingness to change, their relationship will be kept at a lower flame in which they will still meet, but only under certain conditions and expectations.
I would also urge LW to join a support group of some sort and look into the past with the help of a professional.

BADDAD, I wish you the best of luck in setting boundaries while simultaneously maintaining a relationship with your father. It won't be easy.

I have a relative who's a narcissist and planning visits used to be a nightmare. She didn't give a shit about my job or anything else that might be going on my life, she just expected me and my house to be available to her whenever she wanted. (She also assumed I would be willing and able to look after her kids for days on end.) For years I never pushed back because even the most gentle boundary setting was met with recriminations and unfriending and months-long silent treatments ... it just didn't seem worth it. But eventually things came to a head and I set some basic ground rules: trips must have a firm start and end date, I get the right to veto a date, and the longer the visit, the more notice I need. It was not well received and our relationship has never been the same. In theory I wish we were still in touch but in practice it's a relief not to have to deal with her any more.

Basically what I'm saying here is narcissists don't like boundaries, so reconciling with your father while maintaining your boundaries may not be possible. Narcissists have a great talent for making all their bad behavior someone else's fault, so be prepared for your boundary enforcement to turn into a discussion of all the ways you've let him down (oh wait he's already done that). Just remember that no matter how he spins it, it is ultimately his choice whether or not have a relationship with you going forward.

Would you put your hand on a hot stove if asked to by your father? No. Well, then...

You are wealthy.

So, I'm about to wade into getting crucified for suggesting that we look at things from Dad's point of view.

Pretty obvious that Mom and Dad are no longer together, and that LW does not think highly of Dad's current "Bohemian" lifestyle and his last-minute way of arranging visits with his adult daughters, based solely on the limited dates when he comes back to the USA for business reasons. OTOH she has already established that none of them are well off, so it's not exactly like he can fly his Lear Jet into LaGuardia whenever she's ready to entertain him.
However, he is still trying to maintain contact with both daughters - in the obtuse, self-centered way that probably led to his divorce. He still beats out a whole lot of estranged Dads out there, just by keeping his kids in mind and making the effort to reach out and let them know when he's within a 2500-mile radius.

LW saw the casual, public bottom slap as an affront to her womanhood, and possibly even as having demeaning sexual overtones. I see it as a clueless attempt to convert his grown daughter back into the 10-year-old child who used to live in the household he once belonged to. She did right to make it clear to him that you can't treat an adult woman like she's still a 10-year-old. But for her to keep holding a grudge against him for it? I dunno.

My take is that LW and Dad do still love each other, but - it's awkward. He doesn't get her life or her sexuality or her art, just as she doesn't get his. A tiny apartment in NYC with no room for guests is not the best space for forging a reconciliation here, but surely LW could scrounge up enough cash to rendezvous for a few nights in a Motel 6 in New Jersey with Dad on his next visit (separate rooms!) and - hike. Or visit historical sites, or sit in the park and feed the ducks. Do something that both of you enjoy, where truths and confessions can emerge without being forced. Sometimes the best way to reconcile is to openly acknowledge all the barriers that have prevented reconciliation in the past.

I think Dan's spot-on with his advice, including the counter-intuitive non-sequitur complementing. I've known men and women similar to BADAD's father, and pretty much all that worked for their desperate relatives was to set clear boundaries and consistently stick to them.

People like that don't really learn, because they don't have enough empathy to understand what you're talking about. They make some kind of internal sense out of what you are saying, but it's not what you think you are telling them. However, they can be trained. And setting boundaries and sticking to them is the bedrock of re-training self-centered and demanding relatives.

If they just can't tolerate your boundaries, and fall out of contact - well, it's sad, but it's not something you can control. As Dan says, you can drop them a note now and then to say hi and that you're thinking of them, and perhaps their life will change at some point and they'll be more flexible.

Sometimes, though, the training succeeds, and their behavior changes. Their understanding doesn't change necessarily, but as long as they stay on their side of your boundaries, that's ok.

On the "see it from his point of view" discussion:

I used to keep a horse who was a real Piece of Work. At one point, I mused to my trainer that I wondered what his background was before I got him (long story). She told me, and I quote, "It doesn't matter. What matters is that he behave appropriately now."

LW, It doesn't matter what your dad is thinking....what your dad is DOING is rude and unacceptable.

It doesn't matter what your dad is thinking when what he is DOING is creepy (slapping bottoms), thoughtless, manipulative, or unkind. It really, truly doesn't matter. What matters are his actions, how they affect you, and what you are going to do.

LW, so you're aware, what is happening right now is completely and totally normal. You are making huge changes to the established relationship dynamic. He's pushing back, because you're not playing by the previously established rules. This is completely normal. The way to get what you want is to continue to play by the rules you're setting, not his rules.

His pushing back will escalate and escalate as he tries to get you to play by his rules (the old rules). Why does he want to do that? It doesn't matter. What matters is that he is still doing things you find unacceptable, trying to get you to play by the same rules of the game. Eventually, either he will escalate to the point of a massive blowout, until you both quit talking for a time, or one of you "caves."

Be prepared for this process to take a long time. You are trying to change decades of entrenched behaviour.

If it helps, I went through a similar period of boundary-setting with my dad, and it was about 15 years from the start of the process until where we are now, really quite happy. We had a nasty blowout in 2009, bad enough that I seriously weighed the pros and cons of cutting him out of my life entirely. I decided to keep talking to him mostly out of concern for my mother. It took the better part of 5 years after that for us to fully reconcile, and now, while we're getting on quite well, there is a HARD AND FAST no-bullshit rule in place. Which, having realized how close he was to having his child cut him out of her life entirely, he mostly follows. I sometimes have to jerk his chain, but it's increasingly rare as time goes on.

How this works for you is up to you and I wish you all the best of luck.

Capri @ 10
“LW saw the casual, public bottom slap as an affront to her womanhood, and possibly even as having demeaning sexual overtones. I see it as a clueless attempt to convert his grown daughter back into the 10-year-old child who used to live in the household he once belonged to. She did right to make it clear to him that you can't treat an adult woman like she's still a 10-year-old. But for her to keep holding a grudge against him for it? I dunno.”

I suspect this casual act has triggered LW because of her life long struggle with dad’s inappropriate behavior and lack of consideration of who she is and how she feels.

Do people smack their ten-year-old daughters' butts? In public or in private? Do they smack any of their kids' butts for kicks? Huh.

My children are dealing with a similar situation with their father. They seem to have closed him down because he just couldn't/ wouldn't recognize their feelings are valid. Like the LW, they still have affection for him, and I'm sure they would like an easy parent/ child relationship in their adulthoods.
LW, maybe write your dad an email and tell him straight how you feel, and if he wants to have an intimacy of any authenticity into the future, he needs to hear how you want things to be.

Scott @9: Yes. My comment was:
"Only in America would someone who can afford to live in Asia and make three to four international trips per year, or who is in a relationship where both parties are making a living as artists, describe themselves as 'not wealthy.'"

And yeah. 750 square meters is pretty spacious!

However (@17), that does not oblige BADDAD to offer her father crash space. It's not THAT spacious for three people, one of whom is an obnoxious jerk. (Fichu, please see today's letter for an example of an "obnoxious jerk.")

So much advice and tips and examples and experiences for BADDAD that I could write books in the comments section for her. I hardly know how to edit everything I have to say on the boundaries subject. Luckily, lots has been published on narcissists and boundaries so amazon and google might be the place to start. Maybe the place to start is to note a divide between the theory on what causes boundary disputes and advice on how to handle boundary disputes.

Now let me try to limit my comments to BADDAD's letter. The question is how to have a loving relationship while maintaining boundaries. Answer: Maintain the boundaries; the relationship, loving or otherwise, will follow. It may seem like you can have one or the other, the boundaries OR the loving relationship. Choose the boundaries. Father will threaten, stomp and tantrum, but ultimately, he's likely to come around. And as Dan notes, if he doesn't, that's fine too.

There's no benefit in stating the boundaries since that can sound like you're asking him to follow them. Just put them in place. He'll catch on. Start treating him as you would a casual friend. For instance, if a casual friend slapped your ass in a bar, would you furiously tell him not to do it again, or would you glare, move away, and not to speak to him until you'd heard sincere apologies and promises not to do such a thing again that began with him? If a casual friend asked if he could stay in your apartment, would you start offering excuses about how it's not really very big, or would you simply say no and leave it at that? (I sure as hell hope you'd just say no. If not, we have to widen the discussion to having boundaries with everyone.) If the casual friend started wheedling, I hope you'd give one last solid no and refuse to engage in any further discussion of the subject. You don't need reasons either for Dan or for us or for him on why he's not invited to stay with you. You don't even need to be consistent. At some point your wife's father might want to stay with you. You can talk it over with her and decide to give him the couch.

Perhaps I sound harsh. I can hear in the background you (and my past self) saying "but this is my FATHER." Letting go of your hopes for what you want from a relationship with him is one of those things that looks impossibly hard right now but becomes remarkably easy when you look back on it.

@7: "Basically what I'm saying here is narcissists don't like boundaries, so reconciling with your father while maintaining your boundaries may not be possible."

Once again for the people in the back!

There are two sides to boundaries: self-respect (not letting others treat you a certain way) and being respected by others (them acknowledging and accommodating your feelings). You can make the former happen, but the latter either happens or it doesn't. It's out of your hands.

Can we get back to the sex questions????

BDF @ 17 - It's 750 square feet, approximately 70 square meters. That's the size of my apartment, where I live alone, and I woudn't mind a somewhat bigger one (if I could afford it).

For two artists, who might have canvases (or sculptures or installations) and lots of material around and also need some working space, that's not spacious at all. Which doesn't change the fact that it's a lot of space by Brooklyn standards, especially for two "working-class" artists.

And yes to you and Scott @ 9. Three or four Asia-US trips a year!?! Business meetings?These are privileged people.

Fichu @19 - "For instance, if a casual friend slapped your ass in a bar, would you furiously tell him not to do it again, or would you glare, move away, and not to speak to him until you'd heard sincere apologies and promises not to do such a thing again that began with him?"

I'd hope one would say something to a casual friend or even a total stranger, not just glare and move away. In my experience, people who do things like that don't think that it's wrong until someone - preferably a third party - tells them, and even then they usually shrug it off and say the other person is just overreacting. The human instinct to never admit we did something wrong is just that strong.

I agree with the rest of your post in general, but since my father is a lot like the LW's father, I had to disagree with that one. I went to Korea to visit him when I was 24, and one day he just opened the door and walked into the bathroom while I was taking a bath to tell me (not "ask," "tell") a few errands he wanted me to take care of. When I furiously told him to get out, he got annoyed and basically said "what's the big deal, I'm your father, it's not like I've never seen you in the bath, and this is important." It wasn't until my mother called him from the US to yell at him that he said he wouldn't do it again - not because he thought he'd done anything wrong (he probably still doesn't think he did anything wrong), but because our whole family made such a fuss about it and it wasn't worth the hassle for him.

10+ years later, my father is still pretty narcissistic, but he's gotten a little better about being accommodating, now that most of our family have distanced ourselves from him in order to maintain our boundaries, and he finally realized how much he'd pushed everyone away with his demands. My contact with him is fairly limited now, but that's mostly his choice and not mine (I did something he will never get over - married not just a non-Korean, but a white guy). Whenever he reaches out to me or comes to the US to visit, I accede to his requests, but otherwise I don't talk to him much. And frankly, I don't think that's a bad thing.

25- Jina-- I hesitated before writing that sentence because I knew it would bring on a whole side discussion. Looks like it's going to happen no matter what. Here's the question. A woman in her late 20s/early 30s is at a bar with a casual friend and some other friends she knows better. In the course of the evening, the casual friend slaps her ass. What's the right thing to do? Assume that the others she's with look to her and are taking their cues from her.

Being raised by a manipulative narcissist tends to leave a person unsure of their right to set boundaries and unpracticed in boundary-setting skills. The LW might want to spend a few months in therapy, working on assimilating her right to set boundaries and learning and practicing boundary-setting skills. There are also some good books out there -- Life Skills for Adult Children comes to mind.

Dan, you ought to check the last couple sentences in paragraph three of your answer. It is inscrutable as if you auto-dictated this part of the answer and forgot to proofread. I've been there, so sympathies.

Also, I'm with @21. Sex questions, please.

Fichu @26 - in my opinion? The right thing would be to say "hey, can you not do that again? I don't really appreciate it." If you think this might embarrass them in front of their friends, and assuming they're not some huge a-hole in general who laughs at things like "grab them by the pussy" and tells people to lighten up if they express disapproval, take them aside and say it. Saying nothing, or merely giving a glare, is the kind of passive aggressive thing that makes guys complain that women expect them to read their minds.

If they are of the aforementioned a-hole type, though, a good pantsing or wedgie would be an acceptable alternative.

Am I the only one who spent a good minute wondering what a class artist is? Since she and her girlfriend are both working class artists...

Okay, I may have issues, but please don't tell me hyphenating phrasal adjectives is going the way of the subjunctive. I'll be so sad.

Ciods @ 30 - How dare you ask that people spell correctly! (See the weekly column thread for context.)

I'm assuming did isn't crashing at his daughters place - just visiting. I think she's saying that it's unfair to expect that she'd have the energy to visit with him after their trip back from the conference or whatever. It's pretty flimsy in a "stereotypically millennial way" to need multiple days to recover from a 5 hour flight, but whatever. She's being slightly petty on that particular point.

@19: "Good fences make good neighbors"

@26 entirely contextual. I think a lot of us have been in that scenario. I've done it. It was all fun and games for us, and I generally don't have some "ulterior motive" and when i'm social, I'm pretty active about wanting to ensure that everyone's having a good time. Sometimes that means crazy innuendos and flirting, sometimes it doesn't. I think you have to take your queue from the theoretical victim - no one likes a White Knight - and if your late 20s/early 30s woman is in a public setting like a bar with other friends, there isn't really any excuse for her not to, at minimum, an unambiguous 'no' signal.

LW:
I too have a father who behaves inappropriately and says inappropriate and damaging things to others. After telling him many times throughout my adult life that what he had done or said was unacceptable, I began to also tell him what I would do if he repeated such behavior. Eventually and after many warnings, I just stopped seeing and speaking to him. I long ago gave up mourning the lost relationship with my father. I still hear from my two sisters of the unconscionable things he says and does. However, my life is tough enough without my being further manipulated and criticized by this horrible man.

If you come to a point in your life where you can no longer abide his words and/or behavior, just know that you tried to maintain a relationship with boundaries that he was unable or unwilling to accept and behave within accordingly.

Best of luck.

ciods @30 - my guess is she means that they are artists but not arTISTEs in the same way that, say, Banksy is. In other words, they are artists that work on mundane things like comic book art, book illustrations, movie/TV concept art, card game graphics, website infographics, prop/costume/make-up design, i.e. art that is part of our society and requires a lot of skill but isn't regarded as high-brow museum-worthy art and therefore isn't likely to make them thousands per piece. I've known plenty of working artists like that, including some who worked for engineering firms, creating renderings of proposed structures to give the client an idea of what to expect.

Unfortunately when most people think of artists, they tend to think of people who have their heads in the clouds and work in huge studios where they create whatever they want because they have a VISION, while making millions for something a five-year-old could have drawn. That's not the reality for most artists, which is why I suspect the LW made that distinction.

29-- Hoo boy, do I disagree. Asking someone not to do it again? "Hey, could you not do that again" and count on him being embarrassed? I far prefer not speaking, walking away, and not speaking to him again, maybe ever. The problem with asking him not to do it again while couching one's disapproval in terms of "not appreciating" is that the asshole casual friend is likely to grin mischievously and say "nope, I just did it again." Far better to show disapproval with that glare of hatred, get out of smacking distance, and cut off all further communication. That casual friend is no longer a friend of any sort with perhaps an allowance made if he figures it out and apologizes, sincerely, plus evidence that he really won't do such a thing ever again in the future.

I assume those of us who ventured into the economic and artistic aspects of LW’s life did so with the intention of highlighting the possibility of her being a spoiled brat/serial whiner/pseudo artist and so on.
Maybe so, and yet she knows what she knows. Her relationship with her father is what I’m interested at and it did hit me on both fronts of dealing with my father and also being a parent myself.
My own was critical of almost every step I made as a younger person, which eventually led me to snap back at his sarcastic remarks and point out to his “achievements.”
Luckily he never liked travelling, and we would get along ok on the phone. Once I came to visit we were at each other’s throat after 30 minutes or so. (He is much older now and a bit calmer.) It was always very unpleasant, frustrating and brought lots of memories. It was even worse when his mistreatment reached to his grand kids. This is where I had to draw the line. Not that it helped much, but at least we all knew what’s awaiting us and planned plenty time that we could avoid him when we visited.

While the first child was growing up I had to deal with it from a different angle. As much as I hate to admit it, some of dad’s attitude was passed on to me. I could sense how hurtful I can be, and was also reminded of it. As some of you may have witnessed here, at times I may also display a slightly too much outtherness and outgoingness. (Nothing to do with going out in my female persona, which I only started after that child was in college.)

Offspring’s displeasure, while not always justified from my point of view, was on display. It had an effect on our relationship, avoidance for a period of time while in college, and eventually I figured out that I need to make some changes. Relationship with offspring are much better now, and I think it also helped me adjust my interactions with others.
As I’m sure some parents here will agree we often learn valuable lessons from our kids.

Yes, CMD. And painful lessons. I've found, because my mother is much like your dad, that I've had to learn from my children how to approach them as adults. If parents don't hear their adult offspring's wishes and feelings, and adjust , then children will withdraw or they just go thru the motions of connection.

CMD @36 - If you're *willing* to learn, yes. Kudos to you to being aware enough of your own foibles and being open to change, and furthermore, accepting your offspring as the individuals that they are. Far too many parents cling to the 'I'm the parent, I'm right - you're just the (40 year-old) kid, what do you know' attitude. And on top of it, they choose to hold a grudge against the grown adult that they spawned when that adult tries to live their own life with their own rules. I wish I had a parent like you, rather than one who seems to think that I exist purely to act as her personal assistant.

sangu@38. I think a lot of mothers, and not saying your mom is caught this way, are competitive with their daughters. And when the daughters become adults, they try to keep them in a subservient role, so the truth doesn't hit them. And that truth is, their daughter is now in the bloom of her youth and the mother isn't.
Whatever is motivating your mother to behave like that, you now have the independence to call it out. Put a stop to it. Disengage for a period of time, if that's what it needs to get the point across.
It is painful for a woman to have a mother who refuses to honour her adulthood and tries to infantilise her way past infancy.

I'd like more examples of squirreling, and its effects. Anyone?

Fichu @35 - that's why I had the caveat that the hypothetical casual friend is not just a huge a-hole in general to begin with. What you described is exactly the kind of a-hole behavior I was alluding to. If the person in question is a genuinely clueless and awkward ignoramus, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. But I maintain that not saying anything or just "giving a glare" doesn't help at all. There's already plenty of dumbasses out there who still think "women say no when they mean yes," why would you hand them the opportunity to say "well you should've said something, how was I supposed to know?" If they're so unaware that they think slapping someone they barely know on the butt is okay, do you really think they'll get the hint from a glare? In those circumstances, I would start the conversation with "if you touch me again without my permission, I will hit you back, and you won't like it," and make sure I say it loud enough for others to hear. One would hope that the other friends that are present like me enough to respect my wishes and back me up.

And if they don't, why would I hang out with those people? I don't have enough me-time as it is.

Sounds to me like this dad is doing a great job of trying to be involved in his daughter's life but keeps getting pushed away by her. How is he being narcissistic? He is trying to visit her and spend time with her even though he lives in another country. I think the problem is with the daughter not the dad.

@42 naive1 Are you serious? He's a grown man, he can use calendars, maps and words to coordinate with his adult offspring how to meet up at mutually workable times and places. And he can keep his paws off his daughter's backside, too.

sanguisuga @ 38
"I wish I had a parent like you"
Be careful what you wish for.

@39 - Lava - There are times that I do lay down the boundaries, and she's gotten a little better about understanding when I need time to myself, but she's also currently living with Stage IV cancer. It's in her bones, and it's made getting around a bit difficult. She needs my help, and I'm mostly happy to offer it, but she takes me for granted and often demands things rather than requesting them. Honestly, 'please' and 'thank you' go a hell of a long way in situations like these, and it seems as though she's forgotten the lesson in manners that she taught me decades ago.

In a way, the roles have switched and I find myself in a position that I never wanted to be in - that of motherhood. I am not a caretaker. I do not have the physical or mental or emotional capacity and I very deliberately chose not to have children because of that. And yet here I am with someone depending on me for their welfare. If I could disengage, I would. But that would make me a heartless bitch, right? So instead I'm going to give her another ten years or so of my life and be nothing but a husk by the time she kicks it.

Sorry - tired. But it's the truth, and so I'm going to leave it, as pathetic as it is.

@44 - CMD - if you let your offspring live their own lives and support them in what it is that they want to do rather than what you want them to do, then, yes. I do wish it.

It's true that LW doesn't provide a lot of detail, but I think she provides more than enough. Her father sounds completely insufferable, and obviously the ass-smacking is beyond the pale.

I think that LW really needs to spend some time evaluating how badly she wants this guy in her life. Because speaking from personal experience, the less she cares about the relationship with her father, the more leverage she has over him.

Growing up with my dad was a nightmare and very emotionally scarring for me. When I got older -- like, late 20s older, I had some kind of epiphany that was really liberating for me. This man who had made my life so miserable, who exercised godlike power over me as a child and tormented me as a teen -- he's not evil, he's just a totally unremarkable, shit-for-brains asshole with the emotional intelligence of a carrot. And I made it very clear that I wasn't going to put up with him anymore.

In my early thirties, I noticed he started to treat my mom the way he had always treated my brother and me, and so I pulled him aside and was extremely harsh and very clear about where he was headed -- dying alone. I didn't talk to him for months afterwards. When I saw him again, I went out of my way to be very cordial with him, asked about his hobbies, etc.

And that strategy has worked. Every time he has stepped out of line, by even the slightest bit, I have been extremely harsh and consciously disproportionate -- I shut that shit down quick. And when he behaves, I try to be loving and supportive.

This whole system works because he knows that I could cut him out of my life tomorrow without flinching.

"I've already said everything I have to say about this, so I'm changing the subject".
"I love you, but I can't let you talk to me that way" then leave the room, hang up the phone, etc
"I've told you I'm not discussing this. Talk to you next week!" hang up the phone, leave the house, etc

What most of us who have been afraid to enforce boundaries learn, when we finally do it, is that the pushback is not as bad as feared. A couple of quick sessions with a therapist or in a self help group of people facing similar problems, to get some tools you can use to enforce those boundaries (and to figure out where they need to be) and you will find this is simpler than you ever thought it would be. Or just figure it out yourself - find a place where you are comfortable setting and keeping a boundary, and start there.

The first time I said "I won't let you talk to me like that" and walked out of the house, I really thought I would come back to who knows what - him killing himself just so I'd have to clean up the mess, or all my stuff out on the lawn, or..... And what really happened is he acted as if nothing had happened at all, but didn't talk to me like that anymore. Which left me thinking "Why didn't I do this ten years ago?"

Oh sangu @45 hugs. Evan as a sick woman, your mother can say please and thank you and acknowledge your sacrifice. Insist on it, break the pattern. Or try too. Narcissistic mothers, insensitive people, can be retrained. A little bit. They don't like it. The 'how dare you even try to get out of the box I want you to stay in,' response will come first. And seriously, how hard is it to say please and thank you.
And take care of you. Good of you to show devotion, you still have your life to live.

Not Evan. Even as ....

I do pat my daughters on the butt. They are six and eight, and I am female. But to do it post pubescent... vomit.

Ricardo @23: My one-bedroom flat is 45 square meters. My ex and I lived comfortably together in it. Point taken, though, that I don't have art materials everywhere.

BDF @ 51 - I applaud you, then. I just couldn't. I need a lot more space; empty space. Probably because I grew up in a (shoddily built but) huge house. I once lived in a 52 sq.m. flat with my then-boyfriend and really felt like we were stepping on each other's toes all the time.

sanguisuga if you're willing to take some advice please search for help for caregivers. I think you're dealing with major burnout. Does she have friends who can babysit? Can you sign up for Meals on Wheels? Is she part of a Church? Is there any way you can carve out time for yourself?

Just because your Mother may not like something that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. She may bitch about MoW but you need a break.

And embrace the heartless bitch label. What it really means is 'someone who says 'no'.

You're not a bad person because you won't let someone else's illness destroy you.

@36 what bothers me is that the belief I see that because the LW apartment is 'too big' she's not allowed to have boundaries with her father. What's in her bank account doesn't matter. It's her home and she gets to decide who stays there, whether there's barely enough room to stand, or if she lives in a palace.

Amazingly I think Dad can do things like plan a visit for a different time, or rent a motel room. He doesn't have a God-given right to squat in someone else's home, just because he's related to them.

@42: "Sounds to me like this dad is doing a great job of trying to be involved in his daughter's life"

If you can't separate the wanted behavior from be toxic, that's on you.

(from the)