Savage Love Letter of the Day: Is It an Open Relationship or Is It Blackmail?

Comments

1
This guy has 3 "rules" he wants to propose. I think rule #3 could work, if it were not paired with #1 and #2. Having certain people with "history" be off limits isn't unreasonable on it's face. But all the rules together is too much. Rule #2 (which this straight boy reads as "no anal") could work in isolation as well.
2
I suggest learning to realize that sucking the dick of the man you love is sufficient and to look for other non-sexual ways to enrich your lives. Stop being so selfish, LW. So what if you're not getting fucked. You can't have it all my friend.
3
Didn't he say "one of three" rules? I was confused at first too since the rules are contradictory ("contra-dick-tory"?), so had to re-read.
4
@2
You are so wrong in every way that I can only assume LW is your partner.
All LW is getting is a hand job in return for a blowjob. That may be ok now and again, but not all the time.
LW's partner wont blow him or fuck him. That is not ok.

It sounds like LW has gained some weight, and now his partner has lost interest.
It's time for a difficult discussion with the realization that the relationship may be over.

Really Raindrop, would be ok giving bloejobs for the occasional hand job?
If so, LW's partner may be free soon.
5
...would you be ok.....
6
I can't type today.💩
7
I read it as LW wanting to impose ONE rule out of the three options. Although, since #3 is non-negotiable, I think he's suggesting #1 or #2, in addition to #3.
8
I feel like Dan has advised others in similar situations ("my husband won't fuck me because ___, ____, and ______") to do exactly what LW is asking for in #1 -- "You don't seem to have any interest in fucking me, hubs, so how about I go take care of that elsewhere? The rest of the relationship stays the same." Am I remembering that wrong?

#2 is... yeah, good luck with that. And with #3, forbidding certain people seems fine, but forbidding a whole body type....? That's not cool, and would likely never work. Sounds like LW wouldn't trust him to stick to that rule, anyway, even if he agreed to it.
9
LW is deeeeeeep up in his head. I sense he has done a poor job of communicating his desires/needs to his husband. It's still an uphill climb but you gotta do that work before you go getting drastic.
10
This guy is the reason I don't bother with guys in open relationships....The only one I could agree to is #3...perfectly reasonable in my opinion that specific people be off limits....but once the relationship is opened up whats to stop the husband from fooling around with new guys who are similar to the 2 off limits guys?
11
@4: To answer your question, yes actually. Provided I loved doing it and the relationship fulfilled itself in other ways. But I'm not a young man who leaves an ice cream parlor dissatisfied if I only had vanilla.
12
@ 2 - I'll second Adam: "You are so wrong in every way that I can only assume LW is your partner."

If not wrong, worse yet: fucking boring in the sack.

Years of reading SL should have taught you one thing: NO relationship is fulfilling enough in other ways when one of the partners is sexually frustrated. That said, I can't say I'm amazed you didn't understand that.

As for the LW, he should get a divorce. He won't get his husband to widen his repertoire sufficiently (not at 40), and his plan for opening up the relationship is designed to make it implode.

13
@12: Yes, he should get a divorce. Or find a way to make it work. I didn't say anything different than saying sex isn't everything in a relationship.

P.S. You're showing your immaturity by assuming things might be boring.
14
Dan misunderstood, and @7/Jeo-jo correctly read the letter. NUFFA stated, "I want to impose one of three restrictions," although No. 3 is a near mandatory add-on. So what NUFFA wants is either (i) open for him and closed for his husband, or (ii) open for him and his husband can get oral only from anyone except two specific people.

NUFFA's husband has limited sex to receiving blow jobs while jerking off NUFFA. But NUFFA doesn't appear to have had a frank conversation with his husband about why his sexual repertoire is so limited. If it is a combination low libido and general disinterest in penetrative sex, than NUFFA's proposed limits have merit.

As for NUFFA's insecurities concerning men with body types different from his, NUFFA is just going to have to accept that his husband enjoys men with those bodies in addition to his, and if he cannot do that, this relationship cannot last.
15
Imagine if this guy was a woman writing about her selfish husband.

"My husband only wants blowjobs, PIV is on his terms, and he will only finger bang me to get me off."

I don't think anyone out there would be defending the husband. I'm certainly not.

But yeah, rules 1 and 2 are stupid. Rule 3 is fine, but don't blow up if your husband wants to fuck someone that has a different body type from you.
16
@ 13 - Actually, I'm showing my experience.

Older doesn't have to mean dull or limited (neither in thoughts nor in actions), which is what you always sound like. Always.
17
You don't seem bored though, Ricardo. Otherwise you'd be on a different tab in your browser.
18
@ 13 - In other words, you may find solace in thinking that you are "mature" because you're happy with vanilla, but to more curious minds like mine, that means you've just given up exploring the possibilites of this world. And that is so pathetically sad.

Interesting people are interesting precisely because the never settle for the average, run-of-the-mill, reasonable options.
19
@18: Ahh - but I did explore the sexual possibilities in this world, and am not adverse to exploring more. But if there's real love, it's all tangential.

Not having that wisdom would be tragically pathetic and sad.
20
Having a partner with such a horrendously limited and selfish sexual repertoire is going to take an increasing toll on the relationship. Thanks dirtygerty @15, no-one would be defending the husband.
Of course things are boring. How could they be otherwise with the depressing lack of variety the LW is subjected to? I would hope that the older I got the less likely I would be to put up with this kind of crap.
I've had 23 great years of monogamy with my husband, mainly because he likes sexual variety and will give anything a try and usually enjoy it.
21
@ 19 - "if there's real love, it's all tangential."

Please give me a moment while I simultaneously laugh and cry at that self-righteous, delusional statement.

A capacity for abnegation only reveals a lack of self-love and self-respect - and, as they say, if you don't love yourself, you can't love anyone else. So no "real love" there. No real wisdom, either, just judeo-christian nonsensical platitudes.

And if this is not a case of abnegation on your part, then you are definitely just as boring as I think you are. Case settled.
22
@21: Fine with me. We're taking over each other in so many ways.
23
@23: Of course, near death experiences and other things life throws at us can elevate "boring" to fantastic new levels. But I agree that it might be best to divorce.
24
@22: Talking about Twoo Love getting you over all sexual incompatibilities doesn't make you sound wise, experienced, and mature. Especially in these advice column threads...
25
I guess it's possible that NUFFA's husband is being truthful when he "swears (and [NUFFA] largely believe[s] him) that he thinks [NUFFA's] attractive," and that he wouldn't be interested in more than just receiving blow jobs and giving hand jobs if he were having sex with someone other than NUFFA.

But it sure sounds like the kind of sex that two guys in a monogamous relationship would have if one of them wasn't attracted to the other.
26
NUFAA says he'd feel weird if his husband "reverted back" to a different body type. Pretty sure he'd feel weird if his husband were involved with men with NUFAA's body type too: "they have the same body type as me so why does he want them when I'm right here??"
27
@24: I was actually wondering what nasty you would toss out, knowing that you like to troll this space. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity.

And didn't you read 23? I agreed that they should divorce.

On another note, I love it that it upsets the delicate sensibilities of liberals that conservatives are satisfied with boring sex.
28
This letter made me feel really sad for LW. If Hubby's limited sexual repertoire is a recent development, it doesn't bode well for the future of their marriage. On the other hand, if LW understood Hubby's preferences and sexual selfishness for a long time and still decided to marry him, it also doesn't bode well for the future of their marriage. And from my perspective, all of LW's proposed rules for opening his marriage will just lead to its rapid demise. If he is so insecure that he can't even stand the idea of Hubby hooking up with someone of the same BODY TYPE as the two Non-Negotiables, his jealousy and uncertainty will drive him even more nuts than his current (bad) situation. Why should he expect Hubby to agree to these rules, when he refuses to consider any of LW's other requests?

For me, it's one thing to be under-fucked, which is indeed a common complaint in this column. But it's far worse to be under-respected. LW's husband does not appear to be willing to give what he is getting in this relationship.
29
OK, I don't get this part in Condition #1: "... if he were more into sex, I wouldn't even consider an open marriage because he's fucking amazing in bed." Dude, the whole point of your letter is that your sex life is boring -- In exchange for blowing your husband, he gives you a hand job. Are you saying that when does consent to fuck you, he's amazing? Or what?

Also, is this a fairly recent development in your relationship? I assume the two of you had sex before you got married -- what was it like? If it was this same boring blowjob/handjob routine, why the fuck did you even continue to date him, let alone marry him?

So yeah -- either open up the relationship for both of you, or get a divorce.
30
LW doesn't seem to have discussed an open marriage much with the person whose opinion matters, his husband.

Start there. Talk it all out. What about you fucking your husband's ass -- is that on the table? What if he's demi-sexual, what then? Suppose he says his sex drive would increase if he could fuck the specific people he wants to fuck, and that you'd get more pounding from him then?

Talk about everything that you want and everything that he wants and see if there's a happy path forward.
31
@11
Raindrop, we're not talking about a single trip to the ice cream parlor, we're talking about every single trip to the ice cream parlor.
Believe me, there's nothing wrong with vanilla ice cream. If it's your favorite flavor, I could understand you ordering it every time you went to the ice cream parlor.
On the other hand, if your partner insists on ordering you vanilla ice cream every time you go to the ice cream parlor, that's a completely different story, especially if they're expecting you to make them homemade Rocky Road.
LW's partner is being selfish, to put it mildly.

Let me ask you a different question.
If your partner asked you to vary the sexual menu, would you?
You see, the real question here isn't whether or not you are okay with the sex LW and his partner are having, the question is whether or not they are okay with it. Both of them.
32
Good analogy, AK @31...except that you've made me hungry for ice cream now, and all the local shops are closed!~
33
To me, rules 1,2, & 3 taken together sound not so much like the ground rules for opening the relationship as they do a test which Letter Writer is about to maneuver Lazy Hubby into failing. The test goes something like this: "If you suddenly and magically find your libido and your enthusiasm with other guys, I'm outta here so fast it will make your head spin, because I am not going to be in a relationship with someone who desires people outside the relationship more than he desires me IN it. You want them more than you want me, you married the wrong guy, stupid."

Now, there is still the off chance that Lazy Hubby really has just gone so low libido in his old age that he can't be bothered any more, in which case "The Rules" seem to be more like handrails to guide their mutual sex lives into the configuration that Husband claims it is all along -- with the implied threat that if Hubs breaks loose from the sexual rut he's worn in their relationship, it will break the relationship, which supposedly neither wants.

My crystal ball says this approach is likely to end badly, so rather than setting up a test for him to fail, just take responsibility for your own wants and needs, and have the courage to end this so you can get them met without the drama that this portends.
34
@27
Conservatives being satisfied by boring sex doesn't upset my sensibilities, but it certainly helps to explain why the vast majority of conservatives are such assholes.
35
As others have pointed out, Dan misunderstood. He said:
"I want to impose one of three restrictions."

To me, it looks like #1 is totally unreasonable. But both #2 and #3 look reasonable to me. The rationale behind both seem really weird and point to much deeper problems, but it's very common for people in open marriages to place restrictions on what the spouse can do with his/her lovers (#2) and who the spouse can have sex with (#3).

Yes to everything about how the relationship has plenty of problems and the insecurities here and problematic motivations for the restrictions here are likely to grow, but as for the restrictions themselves, #2 and #3 both seem well within the range of common for open marriages.
36
@25 That's what I was thinking, too, while reading. LW says the husband is good in bed so it doesn't sound like a performance issue. It sounds like an attraction issue. Though it could be laziness or selfishness also?

@Raindrop, I probably shouldn't even get in this, but I just have to clarify re: "I love it that it upsets the delicate sensibilities of liberals that conservatives are satisfied with boring sex". Nobody gaf if you or any one else is satisfied with boring sex. The problem is when you start to impose your priorities on others or adding some moral layer to priorities in relationships. Obviously our definitions of boring or adventure, vanilla or kinky, will all be subjective and different. The point is that there's nothing more moral or correct about prioritizing other forms of companionship or other positive features of relationships over sexual compatibility.

Erica, Cap and Jared- all giving really good advice beyond the questions asked. Y'all should write the column.
37
How on earth can someone with such a limited repertoire be described as "fucking amazing in bed"?

NUFAA is listing his ideal outcomes in order of preference. Ideally, he'd go get sex with other guys and Mr NUFAA would remain faithful, so that each of them would be getting all the sex he wants. But NUFAA seems to realise that's unfair, so he's proposing rule 2 -- no fucking -- as an alternative. But he realises this is also unfair, so his Rule 3 is the absolute minimum boundary he'd be willing to accept in an open scenario: veto power, which a lot of open couples have.

However, Rule 3 does seem to read as "no sex with men who are your type," which would seem to defeat the purpose of openness from Mr NUFAA's perspective. I can see, after all this rejection, why NUFAA is so insecure. But if he wants an open relationship, he'll have to get over that insecurity one way or another. It's unlikely the relationship will last once Mr NUFAA starts fucking around, so I'm going to agree that breaking up is probably the best way to go here.
38
Raindrop: To turn your ridiculous logic around, if you love someone, and they love oral sex, aren't you being more or less abusive by denying it to them?
People have different definitions of "boring" sex. If no-oral isn't boring to you, then fine. But if it's boring to your partner, that's sexual incompatibility, which love can only override for so long.
39
I think at the end of the day, what LW really wants is a monogamous relationship with more/better sex than what he's getting now. Opening up the current relationship isn't going to fix the problem, it's just going to make new problems.
40
@27: You being satisfied with "boring"/ vanilla sex doesn't offend me in the slightest. You self- righteously declaring that everyone else should be is another kettle of fish.
41
I was going to suggest that Messrs NUFAA get a third whom they share. But that's probably also a bad idea, due to NUFAA's insecurities.
42
Raindrop is also deluded if he believes he is the norm. I have known some seriously kinky Republicans in my time.
43
I think he's saying that when his husband does more than just ask for a blow job, he's good in bed. Sounds like that happens rarely enough, but he does talk about his husband (rarely) fucking him.

I do wonder how they ended up in this situation. If it was always like this, why did they get married?
44
I agree with 39. This guy doesn't really want an open relationship. He wants his monogamous relationship to be different than it is, as he states below:

"And I promise, if he were more into sex, I wouldn't even consider an open marriage because he's fucking amazing in bed."

If that's the case, opening his marriage is not going to bring the results he wants. He needs to decide how much longer he's going to put up with this, then tell his husband that they need to work on changing the current situation or he's going to leave at the end of that period of time. And if nothing changes, then he needs to leave. If his husband doesn't want to put the effort into making the marriage work, then it's over.

An open marriage isn't the solution to a stronger marriage and better sex life in this case. If they're not already having good sex with each other, there's no way an open relationship is going make things better. It will only make things worse. The connection has to be solid between them in order to outweigh the insecurity this can generate, and it doesn't sound like this marriage is solid or that the LW feels secure. He'd have a better chance of getting what he wants if they spent more time focusing on each other rather than turning to other people.
45
...feel insecure, I mean
46
<<
47
I wrote a really compelling answer and when I hit 'post comment', only arrows showed up. What's up with this site?
48
I really have to be more careful, the last sentence in in 27 was a tounge-in-cheek jest at stereotypes. But it was amusing reading what you all extrapolated from it.
49
Raindrop, that jest would only work if it's sarcastic or ironic (which in your case it isn't since you regularly say things like that earnestly including in this thread) or if it's self-deprecating which would require a bit of insight and admit more than you intended. The other options are: you are reinterpreting your statement in light of the response. You are trolling because it amuses you to read the responses.
50
I am a woman With the same issue with my current male partner. We been together, like 13/14/15 years now.
I had the same issue with my current partner. This was during the first decade of our relationship!
He wanted oral, but refused to give ME oral.
He wasn't fixed and we didn't want children (and birth control is not an option for me) so we had to use condoms. I rarely got off because I couldn't feel anything. He'd get off and not finish me off. ON TOP OF THAT, he wanted monogamy from this sexually frustrated woman!
I made demands, threatened, threw temper tantrums, begged, pleaded, cried. Nothing did the trick. I doubt you'll have much success in your relationship (at least he jacked you off. My partner wouldn't even do THAT for me back then).
I know there's a significant emotional attachment between the two of you, otherwise you would not have married him and you would not have stayed with him so long. There also might be financial issues that might be causing you to stay too. Either way, you're trapped right now.
You might not be able to get out of this relationship right now. You might have to just 'stick with it' and hopefully one day be able to get out.
Everyone was some easy-peasy answer when there often is none.
OH, BTW. You could always try sex probation! That's what worked for me. I said 'I reciprocate everything. That means YOU have to go first.'
We went, like 3 years like that. He was constantly begging me for oral. My answer was always the same: 'I reciprocate everything'. Like I said, it took three (3) years, but he finally caved.
As you can probably tell, the sexual part of our relationship has been one of stern compromise. But I'm trapped, so I have to use the only thing I got to get what I want.
Hey, sometimes that's the way it's got to be.
Repeat: Often there is no easy-peasy answer.
P.S. to answerers: Did it not cross your mind that this fellow has REPEATEDLY asked his partner to satisfy his desires? He doesn't sound like an idiot. I'm sure he didn't just come here out of the blue--after YEARS of putting up with his partner's behaviour--without trying to resolve the problem in-house many many times already.

51
@26. Really. You just had to go there didn't you? I would like to note how many "conservatives" (read GOP) have gotten outed over more exotic fare like hiring male gigilios and trolling men anonymously in bathrooms. I will say I've had relations with plenty of conservative men (read GOP) and one in particular was a kinky bastard. So now you sound uneducated and quite petty.

And it's a shame because on this I don't disagree with you. It's not about liberal or conservative, it's about what works for you. Some people value sex HIGHLY. I warrant many post here as versus fishingman's weekly. Self selecting bias. And others don't value it (or more variations of it) the same.

Neither view is wrong. That's why the argument is silly. LW is allowed to value sex. It's his body; it's his life. You are allowed to pick a different course.

What is annoying is the pedantic insistence that you "valuing true love" over variety is the better more mature version.

If I stopped having sex with my hubby for no good reason, his love for me would likely take a hit. He is by no means shallow, but the bedstuff makes him feel good, appreciated, loved. If he stopped whispering sweet nothings in my ear or holding me close at night, I'd start to feel like he didn't love or care about me anymore.

For this man, he needs more than the narrow type of physical affection of what he has. I get it. I'd be very unhappy in his situation. It likely do significant damage to my marriage. I think it is likely he has been doing the calculus you have recommended for quite a while - his sexual needs versus the love he has for this man. For him, it does not seem to be balancing out. For you, I suppose you can reach a different conclusion.

And as a dyed in the wool liberal, I really don't care what gets your jollies off. But like a dyed in the wool liberal, I am tired of GOP types insisting that since they just loooove vanilla, it should be good enough for everyone. Because, you know, we are all cis gendered white middle-class men (rolls eyes).

52
Thanks for sharing your story jgunn. If you don't mind continuing to share, when did the sex problems start? Or where they there from the beginning? I'm asking because with these letters, I always have a hard time understanding why people like this would get married in the first place?

I'm very sympathetic to situations that would make someone stick it out even when they'd maybe rather leave. Life is hard and never so simple as it seems online. I think the reason people suggested to talk to the husband is that the letter didn't contain any info about the background up to this point. But I get that when you are living in the middle of something, you are focusing on your immediate situation and next step and not ruminating on the past. But from the outside, I do wonder what led up to this. The letters often say things like "Our sex life was great until we had children / until the attraction wore off / until..." or "I've repeatedly told him I wanted..." or "We've always had problems, but I thought it would get better" but this letter just seems to start with- hey I'm married to a guy that won't do anything except tell me to blow him. So we wonder, why? Has it always been like that?

Also, I think I'd find it hard to enjoy receiving oral from someone who seemed to hate it. Do you think your husband is just lazy about it? Or is it performance anxiety? What's he say?

Take care of yourself. That's a really rough situation to be in.
53
@49: Your being impertinent.
54
Raindrop, I frequently am. What that has to do with anything is beyond me. And while I'm pretty good about never insulting or attacking people online, I don't see any reason to value manners for their own sake.
55
JGunn @50: Glad bribery worked for you. Shame that it had to come to that, though! Serious question, if you don't have kids, why don't you leave him? Why are you "trapped"?
56
Maybe somebody should open a dating website for people with lower sex drives, or gay guys who don't like anal... it might be a hit based on all these Savage Love letters. I know I got tired of anal sex-- never loved my ass getting pounded. I decided it wasn't worth the hassle anymore. I'd love to find a guy who is satisfied with just oral.
57
@51: I don't think I implied that "true love" is enough for a relationship to survive without great sex. Nobody wants that. Just that if you love someone enough, but he or she doesn't like to do X, try first to accommodate before throwing the baby out with the bath water just because you're tired of vanilla and want Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough. However, it that sexual act is that important to you, then please get a divorce and stop wasting his/her time.
58
@52 & @55:
The problem with my partner--we are not married--started from the get-go I chalked it up to his inexperience in sex. It seemed, from my talking to him, that I could count on both hands, not using all digits, ow many sexual partners he had in the past.
So I stuck it out thinking that with my VAST VAST VAST--OK, now I'm just bragging--sexual experience, I could get him to open up. Hey, I wasn't 'into' a lot of things at first. Nor had I even THOUGHT about a lot of things that I later experienced that I eventually got 'into'.
Well, apparently I was wrong about that.
My partner is narcissistic. That's why he didn't want to do anything to sexually please me. Everything in our relationship--up until a few years ago--was all about him.
What I say: If they are selfish in bed, they will definitely be selfish outside of the bed, and vice versa.
@55 It doesn't take children to get trapped into a relationship. I stated that people can be emotionally trapped. Mine is a financial issue. One can be just as broke without children as with them. I have mental health & backstory issues that prevent me from succeeding as most people without children can. Something about being born into privileged and pure luck that I won't get into here. I'm stuck in the poverty trap. But if you would like to find out more about it, there's a podcast called 'On the Media'. They did a series on how come poor people usually stay poor. Great listen!
OH, to add to the story, I 'bribed'--I call it 'blackmailed'--him into getting a vasectomy using sex probation. This was after the other probation worked.
We had had a few scares and I ended up having to do 'morning after' to make sure nothing transpired. *I* had to deal with the side effects of the medication. Like I stated, I can't do birth control and this had the same side effects.
SO after the third time of doing MO, I put him on probation again. This time it took only three (3) months, not three (3) years. It<>feels great and I get off every time.
Now he can offer me something all those other boys can't. RAWBONE!
Now our sex life is on a more even keel, but it still leans toward his side every once in a while.
I have to righten the ship every now and then.
Like in the words of David Sedaris: If you can't be cute, be cunning.
59
Actually raindrop in 2 you said that the LW should just accept that he gets nothing sexual other than giving blow jobs, that he's being selfish for asking for more, that he can't have it all, etc.

If you intend to say "hey if everything else is great, maybe try to see if you can put sex on the back burner and just focus on the good things" alright. Obviously the LW can't do that hence the letter, but that's not a statement that is likely to cause offense. But you literally called him selfish for wanting something more and literally told him to accept that he can't have it all. So stop acting like you don't understand why people might find you judgmental and response defensively.
60
@59: Everyone's judgmental. It's all part of making choices and also subjective but we love to pontificate on what we think is the better path. Your 2nd para, 1st sentence, is along the lines of I meant, and admittedly failed at - so I apologize by making you feel on the defensive.

It's unfortunate that you feel defensive, as it shows that you feel insecure about something and that I might have pushed some button.
61
Thanks jgunn. One thing I've noticed from reading these letters and reader comments is that when a couple starts out with sexual problems with the hopes that it will get better, that mostly doesn't seem to happen. I don't know if our perception is skewed here. People who start out with sexual problems and then slowly fix them over time might not write in as often. But also I see the difference between "my partner is inexperienced, and I hope I can help him become experienced" and "my partner is selfish and has no interest in pleasing me"- and how in the beginning it could be confusing to figure out which issue you are dealing with. Glad he got a vasectomy, hope you can figure out how to get yourself out of this trap. If he's really narcissistic maybe his trying to cover up some deep insecurities -isn't that the case with narcissism? That they protect an image of themselves and need it constantly reaffirmed? If so, maybe he doesn't do more sexually because you are the more experienced (and I assume more skilled) person in this regard and his mental problems won't allow him to place himself in a vulnerable situation? Like, he'd have to learn from you how to be more sexual which means risking his image of himself? I thought narcissists were supposed to be really sexual though?
62
I don't feel defensive, personally, Raindrop- I'm responding to the larger situation. I'm pedantic. (Also impertinent according to you.) And right now waiting on a plane and seeking distraction from anxiety. Which has basically been my MO on this site for a year now, and I don't think I've ever been dishonest about that. The problem with your posts consistently is that your MO tends to be to say something judgmental that takes a moral high ground, then when people respond defensively (as they well) to argue the point and then act like you've been all misunderstood by intolerant people. If you really believe what you are saying, you never give any insight into what motivates your beliefs or how your life experience has led you to form them. And that leads me to conclude that you are almost trolling. The only thing interesting about your posts is that it's hard to tell if you actually believe the crap you say and are really so unreflective about it that you don't know you are spouting bullshit to stir people up or if you are actively and knowingly seeking to do that for other reasons that you do understand personally but that you don't share with anyone here. I honestly don't know which it is.

63
@33. Avast. I agree the conditions are controlling. The fact that the LW's husband won't suck him off isn't utterly unusual, isn't utterly appalling, but is grounds for opening the marriage. Opening it completely, and none of this graceless haggling.
64
NUFAA here. Saw I should clarify upon reading comments. So a bit more info, although some of you have left some really good advice:

1. We used to have a ton more sex. A couple years ago it started getting less and less frequent, and now I almost have to beg for penetrative sex, and he only seeks out sex to get blown. He has only given me two BJs in over 7 years. I've suggested several things he could do instead of blow me that I'd be happy with, but he doesn't want to do those either.

2. My body type hasn't changed. I'm an ex college athlete and I maintain good shape. Dan's response about my body type issue brings up a good point, but one thing i don't see being addressed is the other fact that husband had a history with these two people, and aside from the body type insecurity, I want to avoid that history posing a problem.

3. I do indeed want one of three restrictions, with #3 being absolutely my line in the sand.

4. Our relationship is fulfilling in non sex ways, but I'm sure there is something going on that he doesn't mention because he has a sex drive: he jerks off almost every single morning before he gets out of bed. We've discussed opening up before, but never taken that step because there's always talk of working towards improvement, so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Recently, though, he told me that his interest in actual fucking has just slipped, while his interest in getting off hasn't. In other words, he still likes getting his dick sucked just as much, but he likes fucking much less. Hence my condition 2: he tells me he doesn't like fucking too much anymore anyway, so I'd be fine with him getting blown by others, and not fucking them, while I get fucked by others. In that set up, we'd both be getting what we want sexually.

Anyway, food for thought.
65
@62: I always speak from sincerity in my comments as much as anyone on Slog; but admittedly slip into hyperbole, do sarcasm, but how folks extrapolate and contort my commentary is obviously beyond my control.

Hope your flight takes off soon!
66
Thanks for coming back and clarifying and adding details NUFAA. Best of luck to you, it's a rough situation to be in. NUFAA So could it be that he's lost interest in sex but not in getting off? Sounds like he's happy to masturbate and be blown- the point is that he wants to get off but he doesn't care about everything else involved with sex? To me, that sounds really selfish and like it could lead to larger intimacy issues in the relationship, but if you want to accommodate that by having sex elsewhere, I'm probably in the minority here in that I agree that he shouldn't get to fuck other people unless he fucks you ALSO. On the other hand, if the point is that you think it is worthwhile to stay in a relationship with a man who will not have penetrative sex with you, then it really shouldn't matter what he does elsewhere. Maybe stick with your hard line about the two exes and just DADT what he's doing elsewhere while you get to have a generous lover for a change.

Just as an aside, if you are 29 and he has only given you two blow jobs in 7 years and you have been monogamous, then that means that A) you've had very few blow jobs in your adult life, B) you've been with this man since you were very young. Were you two together longer than these last 7 years and did he give you more blow jobs in the earlier part of your relationship? And while plenty of 22 year olds have had multiple sexual partners (especially, I'd imagine, athletic young gay men who are generous with giving head), I do wonder if you have basis for comparison to be sure that your husband is so amazing in bed? Is it possible that you are married to a guy that just isn't that sexual or that just isn't so great in bed?
67
@61
He doesn't have a high sex drive. But when he does, it's not really sexual as most people would think of it. It was all about HIM and getting HIMSELF off. There was no stripping (on his part) or 'lead up' or anything anyone would think when they think of someone being sexual.
It wasn't rough, like a psychopath. But he was a con. He would start out like it was all about me, then change tactics.
I forgot to answer your previous question concerning his answer to when I asked him to go downtown. After a few years of no oral for me, I started asking, before the act began, if he could go down on me. He always said 'next time'--meaning next time we had sex. 'Next time' never came. Well I already know the definition of selfish, he didn't have to give it to me.
Like I said, this is not a current problem. I can always get off with regular sex. I have a lot of experience--I mean, a lot a lot a lot of experience--but I just want to get my rocks off. I'm not into swinging on chandeliers or anything. In my younger days it was different. I'm in my 40's now and would rather get the job done and move on than take it slow.
Yeah, at first I chalked it up to inexperience. It took several years for me to figure out it was his selfishness.
I think psychopaths are born, narcissists are made. His parents turned him into this. They gave/give him everything he wants. Thus, when he started getting into relationships he thought only of himself. I'm sure that's why none of the others went anywhere. The longest relationship he had prior was less than two years long.
Finally, after one terrible 'time' in our relationship, I told him he was a narcissist and if he didn't change he would lose me and NEVER find another that would put up with his ways.
'I may end up homeless [which a narcissist doesn't care about] but you will die old and alone. So let me appeal to your greed and say this will not work out for YOU in the end. A good man would love to have me. A good woman will not want you.'
When I laid it out flat like that, he had to agree, though he didn't do it verbally because he is never wrong. SO he has been changing. But a lifetime of learned behaviour--he was in his early 40's at the time--is hard to break. Like I say, I need to righten the ship occasionally.
Now if I won PCH, I bet my bags'd be packed. . . .wait, forget the bags, I can BUY everything all over again! A fresh start in all aspects.
68
Side note. Only guys that enjoy sucking dick, know how to suck dick!

And if not, it isn't that much fun for either. So it's futile hoping for something he doesn't enjoy.
69
@12 whoooooooooooah boy. I'm generally of the opinion that no sex is fulfilling enough to maintain a relationship that isn't working on the social level, and that the value of a good relationship vastly outsizes the value of good sex. While I don't agree with @2, in general I'm of that line of thinking: Not having an excellent sex life is sometimes the cost of having an excellent partner (if the partner is indeed excellent); and if I have to choose between the two, I'm choosing partnership over sex.
70
Nufaa, I see marriage is bringing the same sort of joy to the gay community as it has to us straights for so long.
You are a young man, why are you staying in such a destructive relationship. Your husband doesn't listen and take care of your sexual needs and here you are writing convoluted lists of how to open the marriage.
Don't waste your precious youthful energy on this situation. Get a divorce and move on.
71
Yeah and thanks raindrop for all your dick stories. You must really like it.
72
@69: If only I had articulated what you just did.

Cheers LavaGirl
73
Nufaa @64 "I'm sure there is something going on...he jerks off almost every single morning before he gets out of bed"

"he tells me he doesn't like fucking too much anymore anyway, so I'd be fine with him getting blown by others, and not fucking them, while I get fucked by others. In that set up, we'd both be getting what we want sexually."

If you believe him, then go ahead, make him this offer and see what happens.

If you don't believe him, then that's the heart of your problems. Try joint counseling to see if he'll be honest there, with the help of a professional. If not, try giving him six months or a year to really live out his fantasies, yes, even with the off-limits folks, and then see whether he is willing to tell you what he wants & needs in bed. People change over time. As you suspect, there's probably something important he's not telling you.

Accept that your relationship may not survive, and work on being honest enough with each other to figure out if the relationship *should* survive.
74
Sporty @69: And I would choose to end a partnership where the sex wasn't good. I would quickly grow to think of that person in platonic terms only, and my eyes would wander. If I were trying to be monogamous, I'd end up cheating. I could stay in a poly relationship if the sex was meh, because I could get good sex elsewhere. But honestly I wouldn't make it to the relationship stage with a crappy partner. Oxytocin is what bonds me to a lover. Humans are annoying and without great sex to paper over the cracks, my interest would quickly wane. If the sex I'm getting isn't any better than masturbation, I'd rather be single.

Nufaa @64: Thanks for writing in. Your husband sounds like he's lazy and takes you for granted.
Two thoughts I've had:
1. You and your husband could each make a list of your sexual needs that aren't currently being fulfilled, and exchange lists. Of your lists, each of you decides which of those needs you're going to make the effort to fulfil yourself, and which you'll allow him to outsource.
2. This is my inner cruel mistress talking, but I'd be tempted to cage his cock and not allow him to masturbate in the mornings. You'll unlock him after he gives you a blowjob. Any chance he's submissive enough to go along with this? (Probably not, but it was fun to think about!)
75
@65: "I always speak from sincerity in my comments as much as anyone on Slog; but admittedly slip into hyperbole, do sarcasm"

You're entirely incapable of delineating your insincere and gimmicky "HEH, LIBERALSSS" shitposting from your sincere posts, which appear to be so rare it's hard to distinguish.
76
Perhaps persons would be less annoyed with your posting if you posted what you actually believed versus constantly masking your true opinions behind desert dry "sarcasm" whenever confronted.
77
@76: Yes, comment 2 had its basis in sincerity, but in terms of style your point is well taken.
78
@74, Fan for the win. I like that idea Fan. Cage the bastard till he wakes up to himself.
79
@77: In seriousness if you phrased things as your perspective and preference without the constant slut-shaming of everyone here and our lifestyles we could at least agree to disagree on more.

You're not better than anyone here, and the constant sneering that you are may give you pleasure but it's horribly annoying to outside observers. Please at least try to keep that in mind if you're at all shocked at responses you receive.
80
@79: I'm appalled, and saddened, by your lack of grace. But God blesses you anyway, dearest.
81
@80: You couldn't stay sincere for the span of one single post.
82
@79: Typically, the line "your point is well taken" is understood as giving deference and putting a cap on the matter; but that just wasn't good enough for you.
83
@81: Anything else you want to get off your chest?
84
Snideness is not required to be met by grace. There's an old adage about ability to dish out being un-correlated with ability to take. Raindrop, you've been a dick, it's been pointed out that you've been a dick, you've accepted that you were a dick. Now it's time to stop being a dick.
85
@84: On a scale of 1 to 10, how much did you enjoy getting that last little dig in?
86
@84: But you're right. I have fallen short of respectable decorum, and hence will atone for my dickishness by elevating my discourse forevermore. I thank you, and may God bless you.
87
Raindrop the issue here isn't you taking a pointed tone or using some sort of oaths, it's that you only seem to post here to remind us that you loathe who we are.

Perhaps you could try something more interesting than those opinions.
88
I knew you'd come back. Loathe? I really think its something else your mistakenly sensing. My writing style can certainly be pompous; but I have a feeling it's more than that.

I don't loathe people, including avatars; however, I do loathe some ideologies - as do you.

But you do have a short fuse. You've snipped at others besides me. It also seems like you take a modest amount of pleasure in reprimanding when you become annoyed. But that's not an uncommon emotion actually -- especially around here.

But, I won't comment further and just let you have the last word. Go for it, as it may give you some peace.
89
Let's just invoke Wheaton's Law, shall we? BDF pretty much already did @84, but I'm making it official.
90
@90: Hey dude, where's your manners? @89 was undead's.

Oh well, okay, .. we'll make @84 the last word.
91
Jesus H. Fucking Christ
92
Haha! Ol' Raindrop stirring up the pot.

Anyway, the situation NUFAA is in sucks ass. I'd kick him to the curb and start over- your hubby is definitely up/ into to something and it's not you.

What's he jacking off to on his phone every morning? That'd probably be a good idea of what's missing in HIS life...he's not THAT old yet.
93
Aeros66 @92: There was no mention of a phone. A 39-year-old might just be jacking off without one.
94
I certainly hope there's no phone. Putting myself in NUFAA's place, it would be bad enough to have a partner who wakes up with morning wood and jacks himself off, every single day, thus depriving me of sex later. If I had a partner who woke up with morning wood, grabbed his phone and jacked off, thus depriving me of sex later, I think I'd smash his phone.
95
@94: Or you could have a discussion about it. Better than pouting or violence.
96
Or I could DTMFA.