“I hesitate to bring this up because when I have needs or concerns they label me as difficult or needy. Is this part of a bigger trend I'm missing?“

That neither party respect you beyond when you service their/his needs? That’s a pretty big warning flag.

She’s a play-thing not a “partner” of standing.

The biggest issue to me seems that he told her this? That seems unnecessarily cruel. Perhaps it's time for her to create some rules too e.g "I don't want to hear about your relationship with your wife unless it's neutral or positive, don't relay anything she's said to me as I won't take sides or be your relationship confidant." Maybe the married couple need a therapist to help them become comfortable with the changes they've made in their relationship. It's not really her problem though, she just needs her own boundaries to ensure she's getting what she needs, hierarchy or not, out of this experience without trying to control others.

Life to too short. She deserves better.

"As you (probably) know (but if you don't, you're about to find out) poly relationships have all kinds of (sometimes incredibly arbitrary but also incredibly important) rules....but successful poly relationships don't."

FTFY, Dan.

There are lots of poly blogs that help delineate between rules, boundaries, and agreements. The distinction between those three concepts are important and help to contextualize why things are the way they are. It's clear TWO's partner doesn't have a relationship like this.

DTMFA.

@4, "She deserves better."

A 25-year-old woman hanging with a 40-something guy who tells her shredding comments from his 40-something wife who appears to hate the LW?

Rather than be the lowest rung of this triad-ish thing, why not be the special and greatly appreciated guest star - a unicorn - for a kinder couple?

And can "roughly 20 years my senior" possibly mean 16 years older, i.e. he's 41? No, because then she would have said so. So "roughly 20 years my senior" means he's in his 50's.

Not that one couldn't have a lovely poly experience with a huge age gap, but this isn't a lovely relationship. Perhaps the the husband and wife are abusing a power / experience / financial gap and the LW doesn't realize how many other, better choices she has.

This seems to fail the "couch test"*. My gut feeling would be to DTMFA.

*Can all parties involved share a pleasant time on the couch watching a moving, drinking a beer, whatever and enjoy themselves. It's been my poly standard for awhile. If my partners can't tolerate each other's presence, then I want no part of the juggling and trauma involved in "making it work".

Am I the only one who thought the LW was in fact being obnoxious and competitive with the wife? She's probably much younger, and newer in the sack, and all Cool Girl about polyamory, and she still wants to rub it in that he's taking her to all these great places while the wife sits around with her thumb up her butt. The wife doesn't want to see the look on the staff's faces when the same guy who was just here with a 25-year-old is now here with her middle-aged self. Sheesh, LW, back off the wife!

@Fresh - excellent point. Probably being done unconsciously by the still-young LW.

To the LW: In my experience, 25-year-olds who are interested in poly relationships with 45-50 year-olds are what we call "unicorns." In other words, you can have any poly man you want in that age range. Go shopping til you find the one that fits.

@4 the underscript being, she never had better.

I suspect a significant number of thirds are these (presumably) low-self-esteem types who don't see themselves in a position to demand more. And frankly, they're probably correct: If she makes a stink, she'll probably get dropped.

Meanwhile, LW's mother, sits quietly in the bay window holding a pillow tight to her chest, worrying about her daughter, knowing she can't say anything and has to let her liver he own life.

If the wife’s rule was that she didn’t want to know any details about TWO, then the husband was knowingly violating a rule about their open relationship, which seems unlikely. In any event, it is incumbent upon the married couple to explain their rules to their third ex ante, rather then punish their third for violating an unknown rule. That is all the more so given the age differential between TWO and this couple.

The wife’s response is also really off-putting, and I don’t see a benign interpretation of this comment, which quite succinctly expresses her distain for TWO. TWO’s partner also demonstrated really poor judgment in relaying that comment to TWO, and a lack of empathy and understanding when TWO justifiably expressed her hurt feelings.

Could TWO, be needy? We can never rule anything out, but given the behavior this husband and wife, I wouldn’t trust their assessment of TWO, given what we know of their behavior.

TWO, it sounds like you typically spend quality time with your man alone or with mutual friends, not so much with his wife. If that's true, you are the de facto mistress of a partner who's in an open marriage, and his wife is either jealous or disapproving of your relationship with him, or both. If you truly consider yourself to be poly by nature, consider taking a new primary lover of your own, while maintaining the current relationship with Mr. Right-but-Married. That will be a great boost to your ego and self-esteem, especially if you are starting to hate being a secondary partner rather than a primary. (If HE was truly poly, he would be open to having more than one primary partner.) If you're a GGG trouper who's been play-acting as poly in order to keep Mr. Right-but-Married interested in you, his careless cruelty in sharing the "sloppy seconds" comment is reason enough to cut the cord NOW. Heed the good advice of David @6 - even if you enjoy being the base of the triangle in a sorta-kinda triad, there are much better couples out there waiting for you to complete their family.

@5 Collin: First rule of poly club: don't call them rules.

@3 shecomesfirst: That was my thought too. Why is he telling her what his wife said? To make his wife look bad ("you're so much cooler than she is!"), to make the GF feel bad about herself, to keep them from liking each other? Is he even reporting accurately?

@9 Fresh: I agree that it makes sense the wife isn't interested. I think it's weird she "goes out of her way to show him places" to pass on. What is her "need" here that they're blowing off? To be a concierge introducing them both to new things? To be involved in the relationship between spouses somehow?

I meant to add @14 that I really like Dan's insight about some people being only poly under duress (PUD), and I wonder if not only her partner's wife but also TWO might fit in that category.

They're married and you're the third wheel. They're both letting you know it. To paraphrase Obi Wan, "This isn't the relationship you're looking for."

LW, you're 25, why are you in a poly relationship with people who are twice as old as you are, people who tell you things that make you feel inferior, and make you question whether your feelings have validity? Don't you believe you deserve better? Demand respect! DTMFA!

LW, you're the disposable amusement for people who don't particularly care about you. Unless you're ok with that, break up.

@3. Shecomesfirst. Exactly--I also supposed (like others) that TWO's partner relayed that comment to her with his wife absent. She does seem to know the wife, though--her saying that they _both_ dismiss her concerns as needy suggests a degree of interaction, or else (which would be even more worrying) that he's in lockstep with the judgments of his wife/primary and reinforces them, especially when they're negative or antipathetic, when he and his secondary are alone together.

The guy must be doing something right for this to be the best relationship of the LW's life so far. I'd think it incumbent on him now to protect the younger LW from his wife's disdainful, upset or spiteful remarks. The triad is not likely to work otherwise. And he should do a better job of caring for his wife's feelings! I also like capricornius's advice @14 that the LW look into getting herself a primary.

@9 and @16. You are both right. I have a slightly different attitude: eating a nice meal on a date is intimate. It is not just calories. Suggesting how they eat out together, is forward, offputting, and frankly aggressive in its boundary-pushing.

And yeah, the insight about knowing the servers think you are being cheated on...

The husband should have known this and should have told you to knock it off. And he should have been more sensitive to his wife than to tell her you made a dining out suggestion. This relationship is doomed. The wife is the only person whose behaviour I sympathize with. Of course she lashed out at her husband for bringing this up.

@9/Fresh: Why do you assume "the wife sits around with her thumb up her butt?" How do you know the wife isn't out on a date with another man?

"The wife doesn't want to see the look on the staff's faces when the same guy who was just here with a 25-year-old is now here with her middle-aged self." Why do you assume someone in a poly relationship considers the views of the waitstaff at a restaurant?

Your comments suggest your looking at this through the lens of someone who is monogamous, but that's not the relationship structure of this woman. If she is unhappy with this situation, that's her issue and something she needs to address with her husband. But that is not TWO's failing.

@22/Christopher J: "Suggesting how they eat out together, is forward, offputting, and frankly aggressive in its boundary-pushing." It's not clear that a universal rule of ethical non-monogamy, and if that is a rule of this non-monogamous marriage, than it's the husband who needed to explain the ground rules of his open relationship to TWO at the start of the relationship. TWO isn't a mind reader and shouldn't have to guess about those rules. And if such rules existed, why did husband relay this suggestion to his wife, and why would he have relayed her response to TWO?

If there is a communications breakdown in these relationships it appears that the husband needs to take a significant portion of the blame. He's involved in both these relationships in which the lines of communication aren't functioning well. But as @21/Harriet_by_the_bulrushes noted, TWO and this wife do appear to have some level of interaction, so I think the wife also hasn't done an effective job in managing ground rules and expectations in this situation.

@9: “Am I the only one who thought the LW was in fact being obnoxious and competitive with the wife?”

They’re going out on dates, if the wife finds that so she needs to close the marriage already.

I mean the husband doesn’t care how his wife feels, OR how his other partner feels, he seems to be treating both of their feelings like a joke. If this is the best, most amazing relationship the LW’s been in, whooo :(

Great advice, Dan. Being poly does not mean that jealousy magically disappears. Wife clearly likes having a delineation between "her" spaces and "your" spaces. So I agree 100% that you should stay out of Wife's relationship with Husband. She considers it distinct from your relationship with Husband, and she was there first, so you need to respect her wishes.

Other thoughts:
- It's highly likely, if Wife is a similar age to Husband, that she feels threatened by nubile young you. Respect that. Before you know it, you'll know how she feels.
- I can't figure out why Husband reported Wife's "sloppy seconds" remark back to you. That was insensitive of him. He should have just said, "Wife's not entirely comfortable with my dating someone as young as you, and would prefer to keep some distance between you and her." Or nothing at all.
- Stop "going out of your way to show him places you think they would like to go to together." She is an adult, and presumably she knows how to use Google. Your suggestions may be well-intentioned but she's taking them as slights on her ability to choose date nights.
- You don't have a place in "their" hierarchy. You aren't dating them. You're dating him.
- If you're not comfortable being in a poly relationship where your metamours aren't your besties, then you need to walk away from this one. Don't force Wife to do poly your way.
- Is this couple new to poly? The newer they are, the more likely it is that jealousy is something they're still navigating. Again, let them navigate it at their own pace.

DAVID @6: Who said LW is bi? (I'll let Nocute lead the offensive on assuming all women are into other women/threesomes.)

Monkey @8: I like your "couch test." I might use it! Thanks!

Fresh @9: Perfect analysis. You win the thread!

Soul @10: No, bi women who want to have threesomes with M/F couples are what we call unicorns. Women who seek older men are known as "people with daddy issues."

Cap @14: Great advice for TWO to find her own primary partner.

Has TWO ever met or has otherwise interacted with the wife or is everything channeled through the bf. 1) Does the wife even exist? 2) Is the bf actually in an open marriage?

3) Does the wife even know that you exist?

I went straight to DTMFA reading the note and was sort of surprised by Dan's advice. Nothing I read in the comments changed my mind.

@30: What was the surprise, what would we be changing your mind on?

Skeptic @29: Given her "sloppy seconds" comment, I think the answer to that question is probably yes.

@32: I suppose they meant if she had never met the wife and the husband was gaslighting her and relaying fake messages to hurt the LW. But I don’t know why she’d specify that she was in a “poly” relationship with someone she’d never met /will never meet so that doesn’t make sense.

I always find these letters fascinating because of how reductive they are (for good or ill) in trying to portray the other parties. Is that seriously all their interactions? If it’s so easy to filter their essence down to such disdain for the LW and there are no mitigating factors I always wonder what the holdup is.

Maybe just the usual “is this normal?!” that persons need to hear from time to time?

Best relationship she's ever had. She's 25. Not counting high school, I can't imagine she's had more than a couple of serous relationships, and they must have sucked if the best is with a guy who's 20+ years older and his wife who doesn't sound thrilled with your relationship with her husband. This will not last. Get out now.

Undead @33: "I don’t know why she’d specify that she was in a “poly” relationship with someone she’d never met /will never meet so that doesn’t make sense."

TWO said she is "in a poly relationship with a married man," not "with a married couple." The relationship is poly because her boyfriend is poly.

Yes, in most of our ideal poly worlds, all partners would meet and get along with their metamours. But polyamory is no more ideal in reality than monogamy. The letter does not state whether she's met the wife, but it's obvious they are not friends. Why is this? Is the relationship new? Does the wife prefer a more "don't ask, don't tell" or at least "tell, but don't involve me" approach? If so, is that because she's new to poly, or has jealousy issues, or is just generally a more private person? Is Wife's desire to keep TWO at arm's length because she views TWO as a particular challenge -- due to her age, most likely, and possibly her otherwise-single status? Does Wife prefer to meet only partners who've been in the picture for a certain amount of time? Has she met the wife, and does the wife just not like her much? All of these are plausible scenarios.

@35: Sure! It’s still ambiguous in that she doesn’t explicitly lay out her interactions with the wife beyond them both lambasting her for her being “too needy”.

If the relationship is solely between her and the husband, why does the wife have a say from afar about her needs and validation?

Either way the married couple is a terrible match for an open relationship and come off from the letter like a pair of bullies.

Regardless of her needs, the husband is playing her in an odd way and infantilizing when HE needs to be an adult and discuss what he thinks rather than passing on the third party’s interests.

Undead @36, I agree! I'm hardly the best-qualified among us to describe what ethical poly looks like, but I'm pretty sure this relationship isn't it. I think LW can do a lot better.

fwiw, I agree with some of the comments (@26 BiDanFan) and think some of them are unnecessarily harsh (@9 fresh). But I'd also add, TWO, it would not be uncommon for pretty much _any_ of the metamours in my extended poly network to suggest restaurants others might like. Or have meals together. So, it's not a crazy or weird thing for you to have done. And then your lover said something that hurt your feelings, and when you have brought up things like in the past he tells you you're needy? This is starting to sound like not a lot of fun.

I'd recommend either dump this guy and find someone that's more on the same page as you in terms of what's fun (brainstorming date ideas?) and what's not (harsh descriptions aimed at yourself), or at least ease back on your expectations for what this guy can give you and start looking for some other people to date.