Huh?

so Ben, have you talked to any of us neighbors about how we feel about an outdoor amphitheater? Didn't think so.

Hansen's plan for the Key - a mixed use venue focused on small to mid sized performances, would be amazing for Seattle. It would provide spaces we literally don't have now. Our lack of concert venues drives shows to venues outside of Seattle, or crap venues like WaMu theater. Replacing this idea with a massive NHL and pop music venue in a theater district is the worst idea ever. Cannot believe this city council is selling out to the huge corporations on this one.

@2 - the outdoor ampitheater would point noise East, where there are few nearby residences. The impacts of a massive arena would have far more impact.

Consider how beneficial to Seattle Center Hansen's plan would be. It would provide useful venues for Folklife, Bumbershoot and the other cultural events at Seattle Center. It would work hand in hand with SIFF, The Vera Project, and KEXP. We would probably gain a top notch summer concert series at Seattle Center. Seattle would get tons of concerts that now have no place to go in Seattle except WaMu theater (the worst live music venues on the West Coast), a place concertgoers would enjoy.

We could have all that. Or we could put a massive venue with none of those benefits into a theater district. A venue that would not bring back the NBA. One that would cause congestion in the neighborhood, and actually hurt the other arts venues nearby.
OR, we could put that arena in the stadium district, that could host both NBA AND NHL teams, and large concerts, in a neighborhood planned for large events, surrounded by other venues also made for sports and entertainment.

Hmm, let's see, a music and arts performance space in a theater district, and a sports arena in a stadium district. It seems to make so much sense the Seattle City council will be against it!

Lost interest at, "moved here in 89 as a musician".

Where the hell were you musicians leading up to the street vacation vote over a year ago. Why weren't you lobbying the council for Hansen's project? Shouldn't you guys have known that if the city wasn't going to go for Hansen's SODO Arena plan that it would try to redevelop the Key?

That being said, I've got mixed emotions about the Key project as an NHL fan. It's our best shot to get the league and its terrific quality of play into our city, yet I believe the transportation logistics stink, particularly for people who will try to commute to the Key from outside of the city and I believe the so-called iconic roof to be preserved thanks to the preservation commission will limit the ability of the developers and ownership to expand seating for more revenue. Such issues may cause the team to seek to construct an arena elsewhere (the Eastside?), or move out of town entirely. That being said I do support getting a street vacation for Hansen, and you musicians should work for that as well and let the best project win.

@6
Of course you did.

So apparently the acoustics of WaMu theater sucks. Fair enough. But the acoustics of Key Arena suck as well. If the extra work will somehow make Key Arena a good place for concerts, can't we do the same at WaMu?

The big problem with the Hansen sight is that it is a very long walk from the nearest light rail station, which means it is not at all good from a transit standpoint. Key Arena is actually better. Take the monorail (for now) and eventually take Ballard Link. Key Arena is also better for buses, because buses will actually have an advantage over cars for getting to the games. An East Side bus can go on the 520 HOV lanes, then on bus-only lanes to the arena. Most of those aren't built yet, but they will be, just as we will eventually be able to cross over Aurora between Mercer and Denny (as arguably the only decent thing we get out of the SR 99 tunnel). Finally, way more people will walk to the game if it is at the Seattle Center, because way more people live close to there. This will mean a much smaller proportion of people will drive to the game, which is a good thing. Yes, it will screw up traffic, but the same will likely happen for a 6,000 person concert, especially if the city doesn't do anything special for it (like run buses from the East Side, or run extra buses in the evening like they would for a game).

This is the opposite of what I thought initially. I like Hansen, and I'm routing for the guy. But the location is just not very good. The Seattle Center isn't great either, but it is better.

The best location would be right downtown. Instead of expanding the convention center, we should have put the arena there. Just as the symphony plays downtown, so should basketball and hockey players. The Knicks play above Penn Station; we should have done something similar.

@9:

1. The Key Arena remodel plan would be carving two-four separate venues out of the existing Key Arena footprint, so more than just an acoustic retrofit. More of a complete re-imagining of that space. Also, part of the value her is the way these new spaces would integrate with the rest of the Seattle Center.

2. The SODO arena is going to be sited between Showbox SODO (to the north) and Paseo (to the south). That's a 14 minute walk from the SODO light rail station to the south end of the arena and a 15 minute walk from the Stadium station to the north end of the proposed arena. From the ID Station, it would be about 5 min longer

It's an 11 minute walk from Stadium station to Safeco and a similar walk to Centurylink. From the ID Station, the walk to Centurylink is shorter.

Many people currently park by the SODO station and walk to both Centurylink and Safeco for events. Plenty of tailgating going on all around on 5th and 6th Ave S, south of Holgate. So I can't imagine that having to walk a couple of extra minutes is going to be a huge impediment to people taking light rail to a sporting event in SODO.

Moreover, the maximum capacity for an event at the SODO arena would be around 20,000 people, which is less than half of a sell-out at Safeco, and less than 30% of a sellout at Centurylink. So we know already that the SODO neighborhood can easily absorb this many people if it is the only major event going on, because SODO easily absorbs much larger crowds on a regular basis. If there's enough parking down there to accommodate 69,000 Seahawks fans, there's going to be enough parking to accommodate 20,000 Sonics fans.

I routinely drive west on Edagar Martinez drive all the time to get on 99 before, after, and during sporting events. We just did it Sunday night as the Sounders game was letting out. We maybe sat in traffic an extra 5 minutes as police directed traffic and let the crowd cross the street.

Sounders typically draw, what, around 35,000 people. So 1.5 times more people than the arena will draw.

This isn't maybe someday stuff, when the special HOV bus lanes are built connecting 520 to Seattle Center, and Ballard has light rail. This is right now. Best case scenario, we might get light rail to Ballard by 2035 or 2040. So I don't think you can even really consider that a realistic part of the current scenario for Seattle Center. By the time those improvements are in, who knows what the status of any arena built in the next 3-4 years will be?

Conversely, East Link and the North Link extension will be online in 6 years. So will Link extension to Federal Way. That's concrete. It's being built right now. It's not in the planning stage. Moreover, Link serves not just the east side. It also serves points north and south. Eventually, it will go from Everett to Tacoma.

The SODO site will allow the most people in our region to take a one seat train ride to a basketball/hockey arena. Every major transportation modality intersects with the SODO site. Ferry. Sounder. Greyhound. Amtrak, automobile. It's a one seat ride from the airport.

Even if people on the east side decide they don't want to take rail, because the walk to the arena is too much for them, many other people in the region will still opt to take Link, because it's the easiest and cheapest way to get there. This should make the traffic and parking easier for people from the east side.

Seattle Center has nothing similar and never will, even if Ballard Link goes in, it won't have rail service for most people in the region.

3. To the extent that more people walk to Seattle Center, it will not be a significant enough number to offset all of the people who will need to drive and park there.

4. A 6000 person concert will not snarl traffic anything like a 20,000 person sporting event. It's at a similar relative scale to a 20,000 person sporting event vs a 69,000 person sporting event in SODO. I fully believe that lower QA can easily absorb 6000 people most of the time. Then, for events like Bumbershoot, which happen only a few times a year, well, you live with the bad traffic, which happens on a holiday weekend when many people are away on vacation.

5. Madison Square Garden is 1.3 miles from Carnegie Hall, which is at the southern edge of Central Park and more or less the center of Manhattan. The north entrance of the SODO site is 1.8 miles from Pike Place Market and 2.1 miles from the Seattle Public Library, two landmarks, which arguably define the center of our "downtown," whatever that means. So not really that far from the Center of the city. Key Arena is 1.8 miles from the Seattle Public Library and 1.1 miles from Pike Place Market. Perhaps a bit closer, but given the superior transportation infrastructure in SODO, not enough difference to be meaningful imho.

Really, the most important lesson of Madison Square garden is its proximity of transit options. It's easily accessible to city dwellers coming from all directions and people driving or riding transit from from the suburbs (also in all directions).

For a variety of reasons, SODO is the closest we have to that sort of site.

Certainly a very complicated issue. I don't pretend to have any answers but I do have some observations. This is a VERY young city. Having lived in some of the oldest US cities as well as having visited some of the world's largest cities I can tell you that Seattle is only just beginning to form an identity. Much of the rhetoric I hear about the arts and music community seems to be stuck in another era. The city is filling up with folks who come from a lot of different cultures while some long time Seattleites are moving out. I'm not sure how well it would work to paint the city in a corner. Furthermore, from what I've experienced and my experiences elsewhere, Seattle is not short on amazing talent, but short on a passionate audience (a problem growing everywhere). Sure, there are those who make it a point to frequent shows but it's clearly not enough and I see a desparation and division among artists and musicians hoping to find a sustainable audience. Add to the mix a lot of corporate money that is working it's way into Seattle with many different agendas. I live very close to Seattle Center and I have trouble getting folks to visit me due to traffic/parking issues so I'm not convinced a HUB would be much more than an event center as it is now. This past year, Bumbershoot and folklife seemed to attract a lot less people from my observations. I can't state that as fact as I don't know the real numbers but a gut feeling based on observations from in the hood (parking lots were surprisingly empty and a LOT less traffic). I saw the difficulties of finding and sustaining and audience rather quickly and have been able to make a good living in music education, which Seattle seems to greatly value and I am very grateful.