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News & ArtsFriday, May 8, 2009
Homo / Hetero Plumb and Plumber
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, May 8, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Earlier in the week Joe the Plumber said this to Christianity Today...
I've had some friends that are actually homosexual. And, I mean, they know where I stand, and they know that I wouldn't have them anywhere near my children.
Joe, of course, is invoking a vicious stereotype about gay men: that we're all pedophiles itching to prey on innocent children. We're so bad that you just can't trust a gay person—even a gay friend of the family—to refrain from raping your kid if you so much as turn your back for a second. That's why Joe can't risk having us anywhere near his kids. Because, hey, if there was a momentary distraction—a blown fuse, a pot boiling over the on stove—your gay friend won't be able to pass on the sudden opportunity to anally rape your kid while you're out of the room.
It's an offensive stereotype and Joe's invoking it was highly offensive to gay people. Because, hey, it makes us look bad. But when you think about it Joe's comments make him look worse.
I'm a parent. I have a son. And I wouldn't hang out with anyone I thought was capable of raping a child. If I suspected a friend was capable of child rape, well, let's just say that would strain the bonds of friendship past the breaking point. Like all sane, responsible parents out there, not only don't I want potential child rapists anywhere near my children, I don't want potential child rapists anywhere near me. I have a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to people who have raped children, might rape children, or display any propensity whatsoever toward raping children.
Joe the Plumber doesn't, I guess, because otherwise he couldn't be friends with homosexuals.
1
To give him the benefit of the doubt, something I am loath to do, he might just mean he doesn't want his kids exposed to gay people lest they be seduced into 'lifestyle'...
Still bigoted and dumbass, but not quite so.
Still bigoted and dumbass, but not quite so.
2
What @1 said. Since his kind believe that homosexuality is a choice, he probably thinks that if his kids are exposed to gay people, they will be more likely to "choose" gay-dom.
5
@1,2 - I agree with you in principle, but the way he phrased it - 'I wouldn't have them anywhere near' - is incredibly incompatible with his statement that he has gay 'friends' regardless of how it's parsed.
It's like he expects them (his gay friends) to actively recruit his kids, even if he doesn't think they'll molest them.
It's like he expects them (his gay friends) to actively recruit his kids, even if he doesn't think they'll molest them.
8
I know this has been said before but I can totally see Joe decked out in leather chaps standing around The Cuff.
9
When people use the phrase "seduced into the homosexual lifestyle," Giffy, they mean "raped," or preyed upon. I'm not saying that's how you're using it, or how you understood it. But when bigots use it they're referring to the nightmare scenario of an older gay man "seducing" a male minor, which is rape, and drawing him into the awful, terrible, no good, really bad "gay lifestyle."
10
I am pretty sure Joe doesn't give a crap whether he offended you or not, but by all means go right ahead and keep screaming into the SLOG echo chamber...
12
Come on Dan, this guy clearly knows what he's talking about. His book is nearly in the top half million at Amazon.com.
How many books do YOU have in the top 549,920 at Amazon, Dan
Oh wait, nevermind (it's 4)
How many books do YOU have in the top 549,920 at Amazon, Dan
Oh wait, nevermind (it's 4)
13
@9, yeah, but I can see him meaning more that they will inspire his kids to be gay as opposed to actually having sex with them. I would say it would be similar to the desire to keep a drug user or criminal away from their kids lest they corrupt them into giving drugs or crime a go.
I mean the older man seducing the kids fantasy is one side, but there is also that being gay will just seem so appealing that his kids will decide to give it a go, albeit with people their own age. I mean really, isn't that the big fear that conservatives have. That things like gay marriage and nondiscrimination will make being gay just as easy and normal as being straight. They won't be able to show gay people as filthy heathens, since their kids will see more and more gay people just being regular old people with jobs, getting married, raising a family, ect.
Now, who the fuck knows if Joe is even able to think that complexly and I don't want to seem like I am defending him at all, but it would be mildly more congruent with him having them as friends(assuming that is even remotly true).
I mean the older man seducing the kids fantasy is one side, but there is also that being gay will just seem so appealing that his kids will decide to give it a go, albeit with people their own age. I mean really, isn't that the big fear that conservatives have. That things like gay marriage and nondiscrimination will make being gay just as easy and normal as being straight. They won't be able to show gay people as filthy heathens, since their kids will see more and more gay people just being regular old people with jobs, getting married, raising a family, ect.
Now, who the fuck knows if Joe is even able to think that complexly and I don't want to seem like I am defending him at all, but it would be mildly more congruent with him having them as friends(assuming that is even remotly true).
14
I'm glad you're getting the hang of this blog thing, Good Grief. It's only been around for nearly a decade, and it's been a pretty steep learning curve for some, but I'm happy to see folks carefully making their way up it.
In terms of the broader equality movement, here's what HRC head Joe Solmonese remarked: "It would matter if Joe the Plumber mattered," Solmonese said. "One thing among many things we learned in the 2008 campaign is that he doesn't."
In terms of the broader equality movement, here's what HRC head Joe Solmonese remarked: "It would matter if Joe the Plumber mattered," Solmonese said. "One thing among many things we learned in the 2008 campaign is that he doesn't."
17
Seriously, as far as cracker-barrels like "Joe" are concerned, "Teh Gay" is more contagious than SARS and Swine Flu combined.
18
The man seems incapable of opening his mouth without saying something astonishingly stupid and offensive. I'm more than happy for him to be the spokes-moron for the opposition.
Sadly, he's apparently abandoned the Republicans because they're not conservative enough for him.
Sadly, he's apparently abandoned the Republicans because they're not conservative enough for him.
19
And has everyone heard that "Joe" isn't even a part of the Repubs anymore because they're not close minded enough. Here's hoping he fades into obscurity soon.
20
He's comment sucks. Even Elizabeth Hasselback agrees (As of her comment on the View yesterday). Here's an experts opinion, that I posted before (with a link).
The Work of Dr. A. Nicholas Groth
A. Nicholas Groth is a pioneer in the scientific study of sexual offenders against women and children, who has treated over 3000 child molesters over the course of two decades.12 A former director of the Sex Offender Program at the Connecticut Department of Corrections, Groth is the author of Men Who Rape: Psychology of the Offender,13 a work widely regarded as a classic textbook on the psychology of sexual violence. In his work, Groth has found that approximately one‑third of all cases of child molestation involve an underage boy and an adult male14, a statistic which has been used incessantly by certain conservative activist groups in an effort to prove that homosexuals are disproportionately responsible for acts of child molestation. However, Groth explicitly states that it is a myth that men who molest boys are homosexual.
According to Groth, child molesters can be divided into two types: fixated and regressed. The fixated offender is attracted primarily to children and has little or no interest in adult relationships; such a person is known in clinical terms as a pedophile. The regressed offender is interested in and capable of adult sexual relationships; however, this person may on occasion regress to sexual encounters with children, often as a result of difficulties and frustration in his adult relationships.15
Groth writes that the fixated offender, or pedophile, tends to select boys more often than girls, but for reasons having nothing to do with homosexuality:
In general, fixated child molesters are drawn to children sexually in that they identify with the child and appear in some ways to want to remain children themselves. It is for this reason that the trend for fixated offenders is to target boys as victims. . . . They see the boy as a projected representation of themselves. They feel themselves to be more child than adult more boys than men and therefore find themselves more comfortable (especially sexually) in the company of children. . . .16
Groth stresses that these same individuals are uninterested in adult homosexual relationships. In fact, they frequently express a strong sexual aversion to adult males, reporting that what they find attractive about the immature boy are his feminine features and the absence of secondary sexual characteristics such as body hair and muscles.17 The second type of offender, the regressed offender, is predominantly heterosexual. However, he may temporarily turn to boys or girls as a result of complications in his adult relations.18 Although regressed offenders are more likely to choose girls than boys as victims, writes Groth, what attracts the regressed male offender to boys are the feminine characteristics of pre‑ pubescents. Groth found no cases of boy molestation in which the offender had an adult homosexual orientation. Concludes Groth,
Homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia are not synonymous. In fact, it may be that these two orientations are mutually exclusive, the reason being that the homosexual male is sexually attracted to masculine qualities whereas the heterosexual male is sexually attracted to feminine characteristics, and the sexually immature childs qualities are more feminine than masculine. . . . The child offender who is attracted to and engaged in adult sexual relationships is heterosexual. It appears, therefore, that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater sexual risk to underage children than does the adult homosexual male.19
http://www.internationalorder.org/scanda
More...
The Work of Dr. A. Nicholas Groth
A. Nicholas Groth is a pioneer in the scientific study of sexual offenders against women and children, who has treated over 3000 child molesters over the course of two decades.12 A former director of the Sex Offender Program at the Connecticut Department of Corrections, Groth is the author of Men Who Rape: Psychology of the Offender,13 a work widely regarded as a classic textbook on the psychology of sexual violence. In his work, Groth has found that approximately one‑third of all cases of child molestation involve an underage boy and an adult male14, a statistic which has been used incessantly by certain conservative activist groups in an effort to prove that homosexuals are disproportionately responsible for acts of child molestation. However, Groth explicitly states that it is a myth that men who molest boys are homosexual.
According to Groth, child molesters can be divided into two types: fixated and regressed. The fixated offender is attracted primarily to children and has little or no interest in adult relationships; such a person is known in clinical terms as a pedophile. The regressed offender is interested in and capable of adult sexual relationships; however, this person may on occasion regress to sexual encounters with children, often as a result of difficulties and frustration in his adult relationships.15
Groth writes that the fixated offender, or pedophile, tends to select boys more often than girls, but for reasons having nothing to do with homosexuality:
In general, fixated child molesters are drawn to children sexually in that they identify with the child and appear in some ways to want to remain children themselves. It is for this reason that the trend for fixated offenders is to target boys as victims. . . . They see the boy as a projected representation of themselves. They feel themselves to be more child than adult more boys than men and therefore find themselves more comfortable (especially sexually) in the company of children. . . .16
Groth stresses that these same individuals are uninterested in adult homosexual relationships. In fact, they frequently express a strong sexual aversion to adult males, reporting that what they find attractive about the immature boy are his feminine features and the absence of secondary sexual characteristics such as body hair and muscles.17 The second type of offender, the regressed offender, is predominantly heterosexual. However, he may temporarily turn to boys or girls as a result of complications in his adult relations.18 Although regressed offenders are more likely to choose girls than boys as victims, writes Groth, what attracts the regressed male offender to boys are the feminine characteristics of pre‑ pubescents. Groth found no cases of boy molestation in which the offender had an adult homosexual orientation. Concludes Groth,
Homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia are not synonymous. In fact, it may be that these two orientations are mutually exclusive, the reason being that the homosexual male is sexually attracted to masculine qualities whereas the heterosexual male is sexually attracted to feminine characteristics, and the sexually immature childs qualities are more feminine than masculine. . . . The child offender who is attracted to and engaged in adult sexual relationships is heterosexual. It appears, therefore, that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater sexual risk to underage children than does the adult homosexual male.19
http://www.internationalorder.org/scanda
21
Ignore him...He is a media created sensation, not an elected official. There is ZERO need to report on what he says.
The sooner he stops getting media attention, the sooner he'll fade away...
The sooner he stops getting media attention, the sooner he'll fade away...
23
I want to see the self-hating homo that is Mr. Joe The Not A Licensed Plumber's friend. And ask him if he has any urge to rape Joe's kids when his back is turned.
24
Kim @ 20 - Too bad that the strongest (and perhaps the best) paragraph in your posting was the last one - and it was hidden below the "...More" jump.
"Homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia are not synonymous. In fact, it may be that these two orientations are mutually exclusive, the reason being that the homosexual male is sexually attracted to masculine qualities whereas the heterosexual male is sexually attracted to feminine characteristics, and the sexually immature childs qualities are more feminine than masculine. . . . The child offender who is attracted to and engaged in adult sexual relationships is heterosexual. It appears, therefore, that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater sexual risk to underage children than does the adult homosexual male."
"Homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia are not synonymous. In fact, it may be that these two orientations are mutually exclusive, the reason being that the homosexual male is sexually attracted to masculine qualities whereas the heterosexual male is sexually attracted to feminine characteristics, and the sexually immature childs qualities are more feminine than masculine. . . . The child offender who is attracted to and engaged in adult sexual relationships is heterosexual. It appears, therefore, that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater sexual risk to underage children than does the adult homosexual male."
25
@20. I thought people already knew all that. good god, people still think there's a direct connection between gays and pedophiles?
But then, gay or straight I go by the creep factor when deciding who gets to spend time with my kids. There are two men I know that I do not let to talk to my kids (one told my then three-year-old she was sexy. not that I'm saying he was a molester, but who the hell says that to a young child? and he is creepy in so many other ways too.) Oh, and both men I avoid are straight. Creepy and straight. I have yet to get a creepy vibe from a gay man. Of course, I'm not personally scared of gay men the way republicans and Joe Plumber are.
But then, gay or straight I go by the creep factor when deciding who gets to spend time with my kids. There are two men I know that I do not let to talk to my kids (one told my then three-year-old she was sexy. not that I'm saying he was a molester, but who the hell says that to a young child? and he is creepy in so many other ways too.) Oh, and both men I avoid are straight. Creepy and straight. I have yet to get a creepy vibe from a gay man. Of course, I'm not personally scared of gay men the way republicans and Joe Plumber are.
26
Great stuff, Kim @20. This sentence stood out for me:
"Groth found no cases of boy molestation in which the offender had an adult homosexual orientation."
"Groth found no cases of boy molestation in which the offender had an adult homosexual orientation."
27
good @ 20 and 24 - the vast majority of child molesters, regardless of the gender of their victims, identify as heterosexual in their adult relationships.
however i disagree with your assertion that child molestation is an expression of sexuality. sexual molestation, abuse, assault, rape, etc. are acts of aggression and control, not of sexuality.
yes, these men are sexually aroused by those they can take control over, but there is a critical distinction that must be made between sexual attraction and whatever they call the former.
however i disagree with your assertion that child molestation is an expression of sexuality. sexual molestation, abuse, assault, rape, etc. are acts of aggression and control, not of sexuality.
yes, these men are sexually aroused by those they can take control over, but there is a critical distinction that must be made between sexual attraction and whatever they call the former.
29
Yes, Kim, Thank you for posting that and for including the link.
BTW I personally want to say that I really do appreciate your contribution here on Slog and find that your your posts are not only informative but well thought out and presented. Please keep it up.
BTW I personally want to say that I really do appreciate your contribution here on Slog and find that your your posts are not only informative but well thought out and presented. Please keep it up.
30
Yes, Kim, Thank you for posting that and for including the link.
BTW I personally want to say that I really do appreciate your contribution here on Slog and find that your your posts are not only informative but well thought out and presented. Please keep it up.
BTW I personally want to say that I really do appreciate your contribution here on Slog and find that your your posts are not only informative but well thought out and presented. Please keep it up.
31
Think of the flip side of him not letting his "gay friends" near his kids..... would anyone want to be actual friends with a person who believes virulent stereotypes about you?
Like, if I was out at a bar with a friend, and they told me that they liked to spend time with me, but they're keeping an eye on their wallet because, as a greedy jew, I'd probably steal their money the first chance I got? We would probably not be friends anymore.
Also, what's the deal with anti-gay folks always claiming they have gay friends. We should offer a reward for anyone that can prove that: 1) They're actually gay, and 2) They're actual, verifiable friends of this dingus.
Like, if I was out at a bar with a friend, and they told me that they liked to spend time with me, but they're keeping an eye on their wallet because, as a greedy jew, I'd probably steal their money the first chance I got? We would probably not be friends anymore.
Also, what's the deal with anti-gay folks always claiming they have gay friends. We should offer a reward for anyone that can prove that: 1) They're actually gay, and 2) They're actual, verifiable friends of this dingus.
34
Usually, I find bald-headed, blue collar, hunky old guys hot, but Joey is sure pushing me to reconsider my taste in men.
36
Quoth Dan: "I wouldn't hang out with anyone I thought was capable of raping a child."
Isn't that precisely what Joe the plumber is saying? If you're talking about YOUR feelings and YOUR thoughts of others, where exactly is the line in the sand drawn?
Isn't that precisely what Joe the plumber is saying? If you're talking about YOUR feelings and YOUR thoughts of others, where exactly is the line in the sand drawn?
37
Hyzenthlayk9 @ 24,
Thanks for reposting the last paragraph. I had to hurry to post it, I had to drive my kids to an appointment and was running late.
Thanks for reposting the last paragraph. I had to hurry to post it, I had to drive my kids to an appointment and was running late.
38
Personally, unlicensed plumbers creep me out - especially bald ones.
No way I'd let them near any kid of mine.
No way I'd let them near any kid of mine.
39
Maybe he just thinks his gay friends will teach his kids about homosexuality and counter his bullshit. Or maybe he think his kids will catch the gay.
40
Perfect for Republicans. Ignorant, slanderous, self righteous, and bigoted. No wonder they love this turd.
43
Kim @ 37 - Glad to help out.
Didn't want people to miss out on what may have been the strongest part of the citation that you posted - and one that needs to be easy to find when certain people try to stir up untruths on these issues on this and other threads.
Didn't want people to miss out on what may have been the strongest part of the citation that you posted - and one that needs to be easy to find when certain people try to stir up untruths on these issues on this and other threads.
44
He's really a pathetic sort, isn't he? I mean, I work around the line crews all day. I have a hardhat and a vest, and even some gloves. But If I tried to pass myself off as a utility lineman, it would just be sad - plus, I would be busted in about 30 minutes, because I don't posses the training of a journeyman.
This last election brought out a whole sad cast of characters on the GOP side of things....
This last election brought out a whole sad cast of characters on the GOP side of things....
45
He (joe the plumber) does not want to have gays around his kids. He is assumung that all gay males will molest young boys.. isn'he ? what about girls? as far as I know that can't be molested by gay man but only by Joe's straight, hetero friends... Is he belittling women also?
And as a side nore, I was molested for years and ultimately raped by the best friend of our family a married doctor with 3 kids...and in who my parents had full trust!!!!
And as a side nore, I was molested for years and ultimately raped by the best friend of our family a married doctor with 3 kids...and in who my parents had full trust!!!!
46
Look, the man has to work with shit in his profession. Its not his fault that some of it worked its way into his brain.
48
You know, not to defend this poor unfortunate pseudo plumber, but I really don't think he meant that all gays molest kids. I think what he is more afraid of is that kids might meet a gay person, see that they are "normal", and see that there is nothing threatening about them. Further, they might actually like that gay person - see in that gay person the same qualities that he sees in his supposed gay friends.
That erodes the control a cretin like Joe the non-plumber has over his kids, thus contributing to his perception of the "collapsing morals" of the country.
That erodes the control a cretin like Joe the non-plumber has over his kids, thus contributing to his perception of the "collapsing morals" of the country.
49
I hereby curse anyone who pillages this post, especially anyone who mines it for quotes and messes with the context.
50
Great point Mr. Savage. Let's ask ourselves, why is this jerk still in the mainstream news? will this guy ever fucking go away or fall to obscurity?
hey, can't the democrats just invent some random-American-turned folk hero for their causes/campaigns? Anna the massage therapist, Frank the farmer, Katie the barista? at the least just to parody this "Joe the plumber" crap. I mean the republicans did it with this guy. he asked Obama a CONTRIVED question about taxes on the rich, that is why he is famous and being looked up to. that is all he did. Boom, he becomes famous and used as a tool for the horrifying McCain/Palin ticket.
hey, can't the democrats just invent some random-American-turned folk hero for their causes/campaigns? Anna the massage therapist, Frank the farmer, Katie the barista? at the least just to parody this "Joe the plumber" crap. I mean the republicans did it with this guy. he asked Obama a CONTRIVED question about taxes on the rich, that is why he is famous and being looked up to. that is all he did. Boom, he becomes famous and used as a tool for the horrifying McCain/Palin ticket.
51
Itīs heterosexuals to almost 100% (1 out of 6000 rapist was homosexual) that are maltreaing, assaulting, raping and killing children, so Joe -the dumb plummer IS a potential threat to his own children.
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