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News & ArtsMonday, July 20, 2009
Youth Pastor Watch: Brian Neiswender Update
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 5:37 PM
This will hopefully be our last Brian Neiswender Update: the youth pastor whose acolytes urged us to follow this case closely—because their youth pastor was a man of God and sure to be cleared of all charges (plus the girls he was accused of fondling were ugly and sent by Satan!)—was sentenced today to 16 months in prison and three years of probation and ordered not to have contact with minors other than his own two children. Neiswender pleaded no contest to charges that he fondled three girls during games of hide-and-seek in a darkened church basement. His accusers spoke at the sentencing:
Several young girls tearfully told the judge what Neiswender did did hurt them. They called him a 'manipulator" and a man who "hid behind the Bible" while ruining lives. One told the judge, "I no longer go to church. It makes me wonder if I can ever have a normal life."One told the court, "I never thought he would do anything to hurt me. He was supposed to be our leader and our role model." Another said, "What he did is a life sentence for us and the other victims. This will never go away for us."
Um... no one is harder on youth pastors than I am. I mean, come on. And I don't doubt that the experience of being fondled by Neiswender was deeply unpleasant, even traumatic, for these girls. But their statements seem a bit... melodramatic. Neiswender victimized these girls, for sure, but no one was raped, no one was forced to perform oral sex, no one was penetrated with a foreign object, no one was impregnated and pressured to get an abortion, no one was impregnated and murdered. Which, again, isn't to say that being fondled by Neiswender wasn't unpleasant and that the damage done by Neiswender won't be lasting. But ruined lives? Life sentences?
I hope someone is encouraging these girls to to see themselves as resilient survivors, as kids made of stronger stuff than Brian Neiswender, and not as eternally-traumatized victims whose lives were ruined by a groper in a darkened church basement.
2
A perspective on this case is that when one gets molested by someone in a position of spiritual power, one is easily convinced that it is one's own fault. Which means that it's really easy to believe -- especially if that person in power says so -- that one is the lowest of the low and deserves only to be abused. It follows you your whole life. Seriously.
3
There's a certain amount of dissonance between the view expressed here (groping is less bad then vaginal or anal sex) and the views expressed in Savage Love in regards to different kinds of sex (sex does not have to be penis-entering-orifice to be awesome). Surely if heavy petting can be good sex in the context of consenting adults, groping can be as awful as oral/vaginal/anal sex in the context of this sicko.
5
Personally, I think the trauma of having their fellow congregants call them liars and ugly and slutty and generally shaming them for being victims of a nasty perv did them more harm than the actual groping did.
6
That's what these little whores DESERVE for buying into that whole "man in the sky" religious bullshit.
Am I right?
Am I right?
7
Personally, I think the trauma of having their fellow congregants call them liars and ugly and slutty and generally shaming them for being victims of a nasty perv did them more harm than the actual groping did.
9
Dan, you of all people should know that it can only take a handful of fucked-up encounters to warp someones view of sexuality and what it means to be 'normal', especially on something as malleable as a teenage mind. It's almost worse that this happened to them rather than a violent assault; most likely the specific events are much more indelible. Your assesment here is a bit tonedeaf to me.
Also, they're teenage girls; melodramatic is their middle name.
Also, they're teenage girls; melodramatic is their middle name.
10
The man was in a position of power over them, I have no doubt that they truly feel what they do. I'm glad for the sentence given to the molester.
11
@3 - agreed. You really, really don't know what it's like until you've been through it. I don't think anyone can blame these girls for still feeling like this a year, two years after the fact. Not just what he did, but the flagrant abuse of the power dynamic is something that can fuck you up no matter what the act.
12
Also, it may be worth pointing out that, since these kids don't edit a feature called Youth Pastor Watch, they may lack perspective on what the worst thing their pastor could have done to them is, and instead are only able to think about, y'know, the sexual assault that happened to them.
13
Eh I don't agree on this one. You're not from their community, you don't have their mindset, and you don't walk in their shoes.
14
Even if there is no lifelong trauma, it can still take a long time, even couple of years, to stop feeling creepy about being groped against your wishes. Teenagers don't always have the best sense of "the way I feel now is not the way I'm going to feel FOREVER AND EVER."
16
Jesus is constantly portrayed as the innocent victim on the cross, instead the of gutsy social radical that hung with hookers and probably fags. Is it any wonder some of his miss-guided followers see themselves in the same way, always the innocent (in many cases, not this one) victim.
17
"I hope someone is encouraging these girls to to see themselves as resilient survivors"
I hope so, too, because that is the key to dealing with this kind of thing. Trauma occurs after the event, not during. They need to hear that they are strong and will rise above the actions of this pathetic man, not that sexual interference means never having a normal life.
Unfortunately, yucca flower's comment is probably dead on.
I hope so, too, because that is the key to dealing with this kind of thing. Trauma occurs after the event, not during. They need to hear that they are strong and will rise above the actions of this pathetic man, not that sexual interference means never having a normal life.
Unfortunately, yucca flower's comment is probably dead on.
18
Agree with Yucca Flower also. I wouldn't wish the groping on anyone, and yes it is bound to be emotionally traumatic and psychologically scarring
My first reaction was the same as Dan's, however, and I can't help but think of a friend who was violently raped in an attack that included being carved up with a knife. She required extensive surgery, and was told she could never have children as a result of her injuries.
She was 12.
I don't think that making certain distinctions between horrible things and more horrible things automatically makes one an insensitive brute.
I will also say that my friend is not some walking zombie years after the fact, either, and has had a successful and satisying creative, professional, romantic, and sexual life. I don't know exactly what scars remain (other than the physical), but generally those of us who have survived traumatic and unpleasant events want to triumph over those things and enjoy our quality of life.
I've got some things in my past that were awful, too, and I do have times when I think "gee, I wish I never had to think about this again" but... I prefer to think of myself as a triumphant survivor, and I don't think the whole "life sentence" idea is a healthy construct for a person who wants to progress beyond the traumatic event.
My first reaction was the same as Dan's, however, and I can't help but think of a friend who was violently raped in an attack that included being carved up with a knife. She required extensive surgery, and was told she could never have children as a result of her injuries.
She was 12.
I don't think that making certain distinctions between horrible things and more horrible things automatically makes one an insensitive brute.
I will also say that my friend is not some walking zombie years after the fact, either, and has had a successful and satisying creative, professional, romantic, and sexual life. I don't know exactly what scars remain (other than the physical), but generally those of us who have survived traumatic and unpleasant events want to triumph over those things and enjoy our quality of life.
I've got some things in my past that were awful, too, and I do have times when I think "gee, I wish I never had to think about this again" but... I prefer to think of myself as a triumphant survivor, and I don't think the whole "life sentence" idea is a healthy construct for a person who wants to progress beyond the traumatic event.
19
This was their day in court - let them have it. Who am I to pass judgment on them? They are young girls and they got to tell that fucker that what he did messed them up. Good for them!
20
@19 do you really think that someone who attacks young girls is hurt by seeing them cry? do you think it makes him sorry to know that they are thinking of him?
dan phrased it poorly, but as other commenters have clarified his comments well. some things are different from other things; and women (aka people) aren't served by seeing themselves as permanently damaged, as made less, by someone else's criminal or immoral acts.
dan phrased it poorly, but as other commenters have clarified his comments well. some things are different from other things; and women (aka people) aren't served by seeing themselves as permanently damaged, as made less, by someone else's criminal or immoral acts.
21
as the child of pedophile, i'm thrilled to see that, just like my dad, he isn't allowed access to any children other than his own. i guess since he owns 'em, he can fuck 'em.
22
dan, with all due respect you don't get to decide how much this guy's actions impacted those girls' lives.
23
@20 - I have no idea how it affected him. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. I couldn't really care less about him, but I hope it made the girls feel at least a little empowered. I understand and agree with Dan re: the girls seeing themselves as resilient survivors and not horrible, damaged, pathetic victims. But I don't think that at all diminishes the experience they went through. If they feel that it's ruined their lives, it's ruined their fucking lives, for now. They're kids, and fuck anyone who destroys the innocence of a kid. The girls experienced a backlash from people in the church for reporting it, but they stuck with it and then got to speak out at his sentencing. I still say, good for them, regardless of how their stories affected him or you or Dan or the assholes at their church.
24
Dan - it is traumatizing, and it is something they'll likely carry with them for the rest of their lives. Think about it - it's easy to see how this will directly impact their romantic relationships (as well as their view of authority) for the next couple years. If you have such a direct negative impact on your relationship during the time in which those views are forming, won't you carry the impact with you for your entire life? Of course.
Secondly, you can't say that this isn't as bad as rape. That's purely subjective (even if *most* people would find rape more traumatizing than molestation). Some people would actually have an easier time with rape, as it's easier for them to bucketize / explain. If it's forceful, their mind might be able to more easily come to the conclusion that it's not their fault. Everyone reacts differently.
Thirdly, are you really criticizing teenage girls for overreacting to being molested by a person they trusted and respected? I mean, they were put through a traumatic experience. And they're teenage girls. And they were probably blamed / judged for this by some people. And now, they have to explain a deeply painful event in public.
Secondly, you can't say that this isn't as bad as rape. That's purely subjective (even if *most* people would find rape more traumatizing than molestation). Some people would actually have an easier time with rape, as it's easier for them to bucketize / explain. If it's forceful, their mind might be able to more easily come to the conclusion that it's not their fault. Everyone reacts differently.
Thirdly, are you really criticizing teenage girls for overreacting to being molested by a person they trusted and respected? I mean, they were put through a traumatic experience. And they're teenage girls. And they were probably blamed / judged for this by some people. And now, they have to explain a deeply painful event in public.
25
I feel groped by the callousness of your reaction. I suppose if they were homo-marriage troublemakers getting groped in that basement, Dan, you might feel something for them. These girls will never go to church again. Never! Some may end up in abusive relationships or as shills in Las Vegas. I don't know what's worse. The depravity that was done to these gentle children or the depravity of your dismissal of it. Rape -- and yes this was a rape! A rape of their souls -- hurts everyone. But I guess they weren't the usual gay jerkoffs you care about so you really couldn't be bothered. Shameful.
26
@3 and 5 I agree competently, but I also agree with 17.
I think its pretty assholish to minimize what these girls went though both during and after the assault, but also I think they should be told they are strong and can overcome this.
And 16 months. Fuck this guy should have gotten at least a few years.
I think its pretty assholish to minimize what these girls went though both during and after the assault, but also I think they should be told they are strong and can overcome this.
And 16 months. Fuck this guy should have gotten at least a few years.
27
I got issues ^ completely forgot to acknowledge Dan's upbeat, Seattle-infused solution for these girls -- yes, that these young souls see themselves as 'resilient survivors.' That notion in and of itself moved me deeply. I can't stand it when dissenters conveniently ignore the salient modifiers within whatever they're attacking. Bitch please!
28
"Resilient survivors?" Does Dan Savage and his sidekick David K. think these raped girls are a hair conditioner? What you smokin', playa?
29
I have to admit one of the issues that comes up in my mind about this is, how is the rest of these girls' traditionalist society going to treat them? Are they now regarded as damaged goods whose safety seals have been torn off? Will they have to wear red at their weddings?
The fact is, this sort of predation sucks for the victims, and their feelings of violation, their feelings of victimization are valid. There's no set time limit by which they have to get over it.
I also expect they will surprise themselves and will bounce back, given some time and some more life experiences that affirm that human contact isn't all creepy, and authority can be trusted. At the same time, I, too, was fooled as a child into believing people were not given authority until they were wise and trustworthy enough to wield it justly. And I got hurt pretty badly in the ways such powers were used to my detriment. And, I still, as a result, expect those with authority to be compelled to use it for their own gain.
Power corrupts, as the adage goes.
The fact is, this sort of predation sucks for the victims, and their feelings of violation, their feelings of victimization are valid. There's no set time limit by which they have to get over it.
I also expect they will surprise themselves and will bounce back, given some time and some more life experiences that affirm that human contact isn't all creepy, and authority can be trusted. At the same time, I, too, was fooled as a child into believing people were not given authority until they were wise and trustworthy enough to wield it justly. And I got hurt pretty badly in the ways such powers were used to my detriment. And, I still, as a result, expect those with authority to be compelled to use it for their own gain.
Power corrupts, as the adage goes.
30
I think society victimizes the victims. One side calls them liars and sluts while the other tells them they are forever damaged goods.
31
@20, these girls weren't testifying against their attacker because they expected to see remorse from him. He plead no contest, the only thing testimony or evidence had to do with was the severity of his sentence. The testimony was for the benefit of the judge, to try to get him to hand down a harsher sentence against him.
32
@ 21 Unbelievable huh. You would think that the judge would be able to make a better decision. Let us hope that those kids of his are untouched and will be safe in the future. Hopefully the mom is taking them to counseling if they are old enough to understand.
33
Dan --
I see where you're coming from, but you've laid a goose egg with this one.
They're the victims. They get to lay it on as thick as they like, especially at sentencing.
Here's hoping they get some good counseling so they can, as you say, over time evolve a "survivor" frame of mind.
I see where you're coming from, but you've laid a goose egg with this one.
They're the victims. They get to lay it on as thick as they like, especially at sentencing.
Here's hoping they get some good counseling so they can, as you say, over time evolve a "survivor" frame of mind.
34
If a little grab-ass is what it takes to get people to shit-can their sand religion the I am all for it.
35
Dan, this time you're wrong. You don't get to judge until you have lived this particular nightmare.
Granted, I was much younger when it happened to me, and the asshole did a really shitty thing to get back at me after I told, but I do notice that it has affected the way I deal with men and what I think of them even 35 years after the fact.
I have a life, yes, but that memory is still there, and when I least expect it, it comes back to me.
Being molested can be quite damaging to the victim, and you don't get to judge what level of trauma they feel, and yes, this is something they will always remember.
Granted, I was much younger when it happened to me, and the asshole did a really shitty thing to get back at me after I told, but I do notice that it has affected the way I deal with men and what I think of them even 35 years after the fact.
I have a life, yes, but that memory is still there, and when I least expect it, it comes back to me.
Being molested can be quite damaging to the victim, and you don't get to judge what level of trauma they feel, and yes, this is something they will always remember.
36
@31 took the words right out of my mouth...you have to ham it up a bit to make sure the judge takes it seriously.
That, plus the fact that they are teenagers, and "forever" isn't quite so well defined from the vantage point of youth.
That, plus the fact that they are teenagers, and "forever" isn't quite so well defined from the vantage point of youth.
37
What #35 said.
Dan, I am so disappointed in you. Yes, perhaps a little melodramatic. But to assign levels of importance to sexual abuse - for shame!
That kind of thinking is what keeps children from telling about their abuse - because you know, it was "just touching" and "wasn't that bad."
But you live your life with that cloud hanging over your head, that new, shameful perception of yourself that makes it impossible to relate to others because deep down you know there is something different about you, because you didn't do anything to stop the groping/fondling/touching.
It has a huge impact on one's life, please don't belittle that.
Dan, I am so disappointed in you. Yes, perhaps a little melodramatic. But to assign levels of importance to sexual abuse - for shame!
That kind of thinking is what keeps children from telling about their abuse - because you know, it was "just touching" and "wasn't that bad."
But you live your life with that cloud hanging over your head, that new, shameful perception of yourself that makes it impossible to relate to others because deep down you know there is something different about you, because you didn't do anything to stop the groping/fondling/touching.
It has a huge impact on one's life, please don't belittle that.
39
Dan, was trying to be encouraging, by providing perspective, at least that was his intent. Although, I think his intent is only stated well in the last paragraph. I hope they are getting help.
40
lots of comments i agree with here.
there are degrees of depravity but they can only be measured by those outside the situation.
yes they do feel traumatized right now and there will be lasting effects in some form or other, but i am encouraged that they will more out of this place of severe trauma and into a place of healing once their adolescence passes. they may very well have been overstating for emotional impact in court, but even if they weren't, i am confident that they will begin healing even if they don't think so themselves right now.
having said that, though, what vince said at #30 is dead on, and they will need the support of their families to heal properly. being labeled damaged goods negatively impacts every single relationship in a person's life. people you've known/loved/trusted your entire life never look at you the same way again. don't underestimate the damaging effects of that change.
this brings us back, in a roundabout way, to the frizzelle brouhaha from a while back - perhaps one's controversial thoughts about a story with real victims are better kept to oneself.
there are degrees of depravity but they can only be measured by those outside the situation.
yes they do feel traumatized right now and there will be lasting effects in some form or other, but i am encouraged that they will more out of this place of severe trauma and into a place of healing once their adolescence passes. they may very well have been overstating for emotional impact in court, but even if they weren't, i am confident that they will begin healing even if they don't think so themselves right now.
having said that, though, what vince said at #30 is dead on, and they will need the support of their families to heal properly. being labeled damaged goods negatively impacts every single relationship in a person's life. people you've known/loved/trusted your entire life never look at you the same way again. don't underestimate the damaging effects of that change.
this brings us back, in a roundabout way, to the frizzelle brouhaha from a while back - perhaps one's controversial thoughts about a story with real victims are better kept to oneself.
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