Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, July 22, 2009
Religion "There Is No God"
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:26 AM
If I'm not allowed to say it in my column because some people believe and they're sensitive...
...is this guy allowed to have it tattooed on his chest and run around Madison Beach shirtless? What if one of those sensitive believers happens to be on the beach?
UPDATE: "Geeze," writes Very Bad Homo in comments, "at least give us some nipples." Here you go:
1
Last night at the Sounders game two guys got into it because one of them didn't stand for the national anthem. If the sitting guy hadn't been composed, we might have seen a good fist fight.
2
there is no god. astrology is not real. ghosts are no real. magic is not real. it's the 21st century and i just wish humanity would get over magical explanations of the universe.
3
Yes, Dan, people are remarkably intolerant of other people who don't look the same as them, dress the same as them, talk the same as them, and even think the same way as them. I would have thought by now that, being gay, you would have figured that one out a long time ago.
5
LOL @1... That happened to my ex and I at a Thunderbirds game a few years back. While I totally thought this redneck might murder us, all I could do was laugh hysterically. As you can guess, that TOTALLY made the situation better.
6
No worries, that ugly ass script font is enough of a smokescreen to keep any potential offendees from being able to read his bold message.
7
The script in that tat is so flowy and loopy that you can barely read it unless you're standing right in front of the guy anyway.
10
He can do it. It's a free country. but he's a dick. He'd be a dick if his tattoo said 'There is a god' and you'd be a dick if you ridiculed an atheist who wrote in for advice by saying 'you're going to hell, you know.'
The guy who wrote in told you what he believed - you got overly offended and fought back by telling him not only what YOU believe, but that what you believe is the Ultimate Truth. It was a dick move, just like kicking a meditating buddhist monk because you don't believe he's really meditating.
The guy who wrote in told you what he believed - you got overly offended and fought back by telling him not only what YOU believe, but that what you believe is the Ultimate Truth. It was a dick move, just like kicking a meditating buddhist monk because you don't believe he's really meditating.
11
Cute! Still, getting tattooed with some strong credo up front can't help but point to uncertainty, as though the bearer fears his mind might forget without a mirror's daily reminder.
12
You're allowed to say it. You're allowed to argue it. However, if you say it in a post that informs us of a child's death or a suicidal circumstance or whatever the fuck the tragedy is... then you're just being an asshole.
13
If there is a god, this god should magically change the guy's tattoo.
Also, would it have killed you to include a wider shot of the guy?
Also, would it have killed you to include a wider shot of the guy?
14
Personally, I'd rather say it temporarily on a shirt. Even better if it looks like a PBR logo. (All the credit should go to RL.)
17
You're "allowed" to say whatever you want, just as this guy is "allowed" to get a tattoo of whatever he wants. But, if you say it with the certainty of Ultimate Truth (as @10 said), and with an air of smugness and superiority, then other people are “allowed” to think that you are being dick-ish. I would have assumed that you're okay with being thought a dick by some people, but given that you're sort of "doth protesting too much", I'm not sure.
18
10, The guy who asked Dan's opinion wrote this:
A 20 year old guy contemplating a "life of celibacy and solitude" knowingly wrote to a nonreligious advice columnist for his opinion. Do you think perhaps the guy was looking for nonreligious point of view? Perhaps at 20, the guy didn't really want to live the rest of his life sexless and alone, and was seeking a way out?
Based on what my friend has told me, I know you have little respect for religious practices and beliefs.
A 20 year old guy contemplating a "life of celibacy and solitude" knowingly wrote to a nonreligious advice columnist for his opinion. Do you think perhaps the guy was looking for nonreligious point of view? Perhaps at 20, the guy didn't really want to live the rest of his life sexless and alone, and was seeking a way out?
19
@10,@12,@17: Opinions on the non-academic writings of an opinion/editorial writer.
I don't know what's going on, I don't even g
I don't know what's going on, I don't even g
21
@18 - and Dan Savage saying 'there is no god' was going to change his mind? Dan's response was reasonable - basically 'you are the master of your own fate and whether or not you believe in your religion devoutly is of your own choosing (and it's the only way you're likely to be happy with yourself)' and got the message across - until he decided to just be malicious and dickish at the end.
22
Who cares about this guy and his silly tattoo? I'm more interested in the girl behind him wearing the black bikini.
23
21, The guy came to Dan, a person the guy knew to "have little respect for religious practices and beliefs.", not vice versa. If the guy was expecting a reply that was respectful of religious practices and beliefs, then it was the guy's mistake, not Dan's. If you go to an anti-religious person for advice, don't get offended when that person gives you anti-religious advice. The guy wanted an anti-religious opinion. He doesn't want to live the next 70 years alone and celibate.
24
@23 Yeah, the guy knew he was writing an anti-religious columnist, but I think he still wanted some advice/perspective that might be helpful. I guess my point is that the last part of Dan’s advice was not useful. If all he had said to this guy was “there’s no god, you moron, get over it and sleep with whoever you want”, I don’t think that would have done the letter writer any good. Even though that’s how Dan feels (and how most of his readers, including me, feel). And he totally would have been “allowed” to say it. The first part of his advice was actually useful, and might actually change how the guy thinks about things. So, that last bit just came as a surprise given that he seemed to actually be trying to help the guy.
26
@23 and Dan makes the choice to live in the US, a country that notoriously has little respect for gays and atheists. 'he was asking for it' is not an acceptable excuse for being a dick
29
@2, you may be right, but there is some awfully weird shit in the universe. Look into quantum entanglement, and ponder what it possibly means for reality. And that's just for starters.
30
24, It's useful if the guy doesn't want to be trapped by a belief system. The guy purposely wrote to an anti-religious person for advice. He got what he asked for.
26, And I bet that Dan would never consider going to Pat Robertson for advice.
26, And I bet that Dan would never consider going to Pat Robertson for advice.
32
Sorry, Rob - I'm with devilsmoke and Julie. People deserve a basic level of respect, regardless of what 'the other people' do. It's kindergarten logic.
34
@17 - right on.
Besides, Dan, what you said wasn't, "there is no God," it was, "You know there's no God, right?" to a person who was NOT asking you for your opinion that regard. In that context it's just insulting assholery.
PLEASE give it a rest with the fucking persecution complex, acting like you're too dumb to realize that people's problem with your advice was CONTEXT DEPENDENT. You can say you think there's no God all you fucking want and that's not going to create this kind of controversy. The straw man has been beaten to a pulp, leave it be.
Also, since I myself have a belief system I can't even talk about in most company without very real fear of being hauled off to a looney bin, I don't exactly have a lot of sympathy for poor you having to put up with a little complaining. Enough already.
Besides, Dan, what you said wasn't, "there is no God," it was, "You know there's no God, right?" to a person who was NOT asking you for your opinion that regard. In that context it's just insulting assholery.
PLEASE give it a rest with the fucking persecution complex, acting like you're too dumb to realize that people's problem with your advice was CONTEXT DEPENDENT. You can say you think there's no God all you fucking want and that's not going to create this kind of controversy. The straw man has been beaten to a pulp, leave it be.
Also, since I myself have a belief system I can't even talk about in most company without very real fear of being hauled off to a looney bin, I don't exactly have a lot of sympathy for poor you having to put up with a little complaining. Enough already.
35
26: The guy who wrote in started writing all this cheesy, cliched shit about his faith being a "rock during a storm, a light in the tunnel of darkness, a sunbeam shining through the clouds of fate" and all that empty pseudo-poetic crap. When you write in sounding like a modern catholic hymn, even most religious people will want to mock you. This wasn't a guy with a harmless, sincere belief in god. This was a guy with a creepy, cultish way of speaking about a "faith" that is causing him to have serious conflicts with who he is. That's not the kind of "faith" that needs to be respected. It's the kind that needs to be thrown the fuck out, and fast.
Also, I agree with 6-9 about the tattoo. That thing is so ugly that it almost made me religious out of spite. The shitty text, and the fact that he turned a bumper sticker slogan into a tattoo, make him look like an asshole.
Also, I agree with 6-9 about the tattoo. That thing is so ugly that it almost made me religious out of spite. The shitty text, and the fact that he turned a bumper sticker slogan into a tattoo, make him look like an asshole.
36
devilsmoke is spot on. Dan was being a dick. that is not what the writer wanted or deserved. he wanted advice. more is the pity that he sought advice from Dan. i don't know why anyone seeks his advice, he is generally dickish, if not in reply, then in the joy he gets when he posts the stories here to allow comments from the peanut gallery.
Rob in Baltimore is completely incorrect, especially when it comes to the photo. we needed a tighter crop, not wider. good god, the lame facial hair, the oversized sun glasses, the shitty font on the tat, the yellowed teeth - see that is what i mean by the peanut gallery comments. man, it's so FUN.
enough of this god stuff, gotta scroll up and see how we can pick on the fatties.
Rob in Baltimore is completely incorrect, especially when it comes to the photo. we needed a tighter crop, not wider. good god, the lame facial hair, the oversized sun glasses, the shitty font on the tat, the yellowed teeth - see that is what i mean by the peanut gallery comments. man, it's so FUN.
enough of this god stuff, gotta scroll up and see how we can pick on the fatties.
37
Athiests, Christians, occasional believers... who cares? I don't need to know what anybody does/does not believe in. I'd rather get a recommendation on where to get a decent lunch in this town. Now that would be a useful tattoo.
38
Jason @ 37, i don't know where you can get a decent lunch, but i got the drinks covered.
http://www.eatmedaily.com/wordpress/wp-c…
http://www.eatmedaily.com/wordpress/wp-c…
39
Dan,
Say what you want. Just be mindful of how you say it, and the feelings/vulnerablity of the person(s) your saying it to. Goodness, Love, all you had to say to CAEM was, "Lastly, kiddo I can't relate to your stuggle, and I can't imagine choosing a celibate life. You see, I don't belive there is a God, or a heaven or hell. So, I don't share your guilt." Only the truely uptight would have had an issue.
On a side note, I wonder if someone hammered you recently and that's why this issue is really festering with you. If you were at peace with peoples acceptance of your opinion, then you wouldn't care if others disagreed with you.
PS I don't reccommend that tattoo. I like tattoos, I find them sexy, and I have one, but that one distracts from his lovely chest.
Say what you want. Just be mindful of how you say it, and the feelings/vulnerablity of the person(s) your saying it to. Goodness, Love, all you had to say to CAEM was, "Lastly, kiddo I can't relate to your stuggle, and I can't imagine choosing a celibate life. You see, I don't belive there is a God, or a heaven or hell. So, I don't share your guilt." Only the truely uptight would have had an issue.
On a side note, I wonder if someone hammered you recently and that's why this issue is really festering with you. If you were at peace with peoples acceptance of your opinion, then you wouldn't care if others disagreed with you.
PS I don't reccommend that tattoo. I like tattoos, I find them sexy, and I have one, but that one distracts from his lovely chest.
40
ad this to the above half a url
ontent/uploads/2009/04/baxter-koolaid.jpg
or just google eatmedaily and koolaid
ontent/uploads/2009/04/baxter-koolaid.jpg
or just google eatmedaily and koolaid
41
Okay then, everyone who thinks Dan was wrong, repeatedly ask him questions regarding religion, and keep expecting "respect for religious practices and beliefs." This guy sure wasn't.
42
"This wasn't a guy with a harmless, sincere belief in god. This was a guy with a creepy, cultish way of speaking about a "faith" that is causing him to have serious conflicts with who he is. That's not the kind of "faith" that needs to be respected. It's the kind that needs to be thrown the fuck out, and fast."
I really liked what Dan had to say to the guy about the history of religions and about stuff getting made up and being revised all the time. Why? Because THAT's the sort of stuff that gets people to question their religion and toss out the parts of it that they already know in their hearts to be harmful.
I distinctly remember the moment when I gave up the literalist Christianity I'd been raised in. It was, oddly enough, during my required freshman year religion at my Christian college (St. Olaf in MN - they have a ridiculously liberal approach to religion and are proud of it). My professor casually mentioned that in the earliest discovered written accounts of the death of Jesus of Nazareth, there was no mention of any resurrection - this part of the story didn't show up until accounts hundreds of years later.
You think I'd never encountered an atheist before? You think no one had ever gotten in my face and screamed, "there is no god!"? A church upbringing tells you how to dismiss that sort of thing, and dismiss every word out of the mouth of anyone who says it. Dan had a hope of convincing this guy to change his mind, but the second he went into atheist territory, I can guarantee you he lost the guy.
What makes me want to punch proselytizing atheists in the face is that they go on and on and on about how they're opposed to religion because of all the damage it does, but when push comes to shove and they have a choice between effectively and diplomatically convincing people to eliminate only the harmful, oppressive and authoritarian aspects of religion and simply trying to shove their "THERE IS NO GOD!" dogma down people's throats, they will opt for the latter every time, never mind how ineffective it is.
Religious faith is like abortion, teen sex, and drug use: you can't stop it from happening. Period. The question therefore becomes a matter of HOW these things are going to happen in our society. Shall we handle them in responsible ways or just continually insist on an all-or-nothing social authoritarian approach, one that, frankly, bears a rather strong resemblance to the doctrine of "abstinence only"?
More...
I really liked what Dan had to say to the guy about the history of religions and about stuff getting made up and being revised all the time. Why? Because THAT's the sort of stuff that gets people to question their religion and toss out the parts of it that they already know in their hearts to be harmful.
I distinctly remember the moment when I gave up the literalist Christianity I'd been raised in. It was, oddly enough, during my required freshman year religion at my Christian college (St. Olaf in MN - they have a ridiculously liberal approach to religion and are proud of it). My professor casually mentioned that in the earliest discovered written accounts of the death of Jesus of Nazareth, there was no mention of any resurrection - this part of the story didn't show up until accounts hundreds of years later.
You think I'd never encountered an atheist before? You think no one had ever gotten in my face and screamed, "there is no god!"? A church upbringing tells you how to dismiss that sort of thing, and dismiss every word out of the mouth of anyone who says it. Dan had a hope of convincing this guy to change his mind, but the second he went into atheist territory, I can guarantee you he lost the guy.
What makes me want to punch proselytizing atheists in the face is that they go on and on and on about how they're opposed to religion because of all the damage it does, but when push comes to shove and they have a choice between effectively and diplomatically convincing people to eliminate only the harmful, oppressive and authoritarian aspects of religion and simply trying to shove their "THERE IS NO GOD!" dogma down people's throats, they will opt for the latter every time, never mind how ineffective it is.
Religious faith is like abortion, teen sex, and drug use: you can't stop it from happening. Period. The question therefore becomes a matter of HOW these things are going to happen in our society. Shall we handle them in responsible ways or just continually insist on an all-or-nothing social authoritarian approach, one that, frankly, bears a rather strong resemblance to the doctrine of "abstinence only"?
43
@23: There is an important distinction between on "non-religious" and "anti-religious"
This guy was looking for advice. His beliefs, even if they seem a bit cultish, only affect him (i.e. his potential celibacy). The reason people over-reacted to Dan's comments is that, he tends to preach tolerance for all lifestyles. This comments seemed more than a little hypocritical.
This guy was looking for advice. His beliefs, even if they seem a bit cultish, only affect him (i.e. his potential celibacy). The reason people over-reacted to Dan's comments is that, he tends to preach tolerance for all lifestyles. This comments seemed more than a little hypocritical.
44
I also have a problem as a rule with any belief system or philosophy that defines itself principally or solely in terms of what it rejects. I've never encountered any such approach to life that is anything other than bitter, arrogant, and superior.
45
"On a side note, I wonder if someone hammered you recently and that's why this issue is really festering with you. If you were at peace with peoples acceptance of your opinion, then you wouldn't care if others disagreed with you."
This is true. Dan's gotten plenty of support on this issue as well, and typically when opinions are that divided he just sort of stands back and watches the show.
This is true. Dan's gotten plenty of support on this issue as well, and typically when opinions are that divided he just sort of stands back and watches the show.
46
There is nothing wrong with feeling strongly about your beleifs or expressing them with certainity.
The problem here is that we have a shitty looking tattoo.
The problem here is that we have a shitty looking tattoo.
47
I feel like the number of times I have commented on this topic is way disproportionate to the amount I actually care about what Dan said. But, @42, that was well said.
48
Tolerance is fine if people keep to themselves, nobody has to tolerate religious morons telling them what to do, especially when they get the law involved.
As far as Dan's response to that sack of shit goes, he was lying to himself, not even looking for advice. It was like some stupid cry for help from a person who has too much pride to actually ask for help. That is what comes from the feeling of superiority that religion gives people, that is why I have very little tolerance for it.
As far as Dan's response to that sack of shit goes, he was lying to himself, not even looking for advice. It was like some stupid cry for help from a person who has too much pride to actually ask for help. That is what comes from the feeling of superiority that religion gives people, that is why I have very little tolerance for it.
50
i frequent the MP beach and there are some awful, horrible, only in South Central type tatoos that surface there every weekend.
I'm hoping the trend of just throwing shitty art and sayings on your body is starting to ebb b/c it's gonna from interesting forms of self-expression to graffiti (and not graffiti art).
I'm hoping the trend of just throwing shitty art and sayings on your body is starting to ebb b/c it's gonna from interesting forms of self-expression to graffiti (and not graffiti art).
51
@29, quantum entanglement is awesome and truly mind blowing. but it's not a magical, made up thing like christianity and astrology.
53
I don't know if there's a god or not, but I do know that more pictures of hot, furry, manly chests are always welcome!
55
Why is that font the de facto choice for tattoos lately? It's painful on the eyes. The formula for Coke could be written out and I would still stop trying to decipher it about two words in.
That black bikini is AWESOME.
That black bikini is AWESOME.
56
51 - as a Pagan practicing various forms of "magick" and energy work, I find that they are VERY in sync with some of the most cutting-edge discoveries in quantum physics.
57
The letter-writer came across as a pretentious dipshit who'd be better off filling up Moleskines with crappy poetry, losing his religion, and then joining a Radical Faerie commune somewhere in southern Oregon. He deserved the mocking tone he got in response from Dan.
The tattoo in the photo is great, but not as good as "Your Dad's Name".
The tattoo in the photo is great, but not as good as "Your Dad's Name".
58
If I could I'd offer you a tissue so you could wipe your tears away and stop crying.
You're allowed to say god isn't real or anything, you're allowed to do whatever or say whatever you want - you don't need anyone telling you otherwise. Just be prepared to take responsibility for the things you choose to say. So, when you attack someone for making a choice based on their belief in a greater being, be prepared to be flamed for doing something those crazy religious nuts, that keep saying gays shouldn't marry, do.
You're allowed to say god isn't real or anything, you're allowed to do whatever or say whatever you want - you don't need anyone telling you otherwise. Just be prepared to take responsibility for the things you choose to say. So, when you attack someone for making a choice based on their belief in a greater being, be prepared to be flamed for doing something those crazy religious nuts, that keep saying gays shouldn't marry, do.
60
Why does Dan owe anybody sensitivity exactly? Because he's an advice columnist? With a reputation for being anti-religion and blunt as fuck? In fact those are two of the reasons that many of us love him most. Well, and his advice is good, but also BLUNT AS FUCK.
And really, it cracks me up the "you could have said it more sensitively" boo fucking hoo! Because it would mean something different? Because it would have 'seemed less offensive' puh-fucking-lease people.
The whole thing is ridiculous and tiresome. Get over yourselves. Or become advice columnists and do it differently yourselves. I am sure that the tagline "Dan Savage, without that honest, blunt, bite" will work well for you.
And really, it cracks me up the "you could have said it more sensitively" boo fucking hoo! Because it would mean something different? Because it would have 'seemed less offensive' puh-fucking-lease people.
The whole thing is ridiculous and tiresome. Get over yourselves. Or become advice columnists and do it differently yourselves. I am sure that the tagline "Dan Savage, without that honest, blunt, bite" will work well for you.
61
@42 Said, "...trying to shove their "THERE IS NO GOD!" dogma down people's throats..."
This is so far off, I don't think you're reacting to anything any atheist has actually said. Saying a very simple concept out loud is not an agressive act.
Do a little thought experiment. Substitute 'god' with 'unicorn'. There is precisely equal reason to believe in god as there is to believe in unicorns. Why does god get so much special treatment? It's because you feel so strongly about God, and base so much of your life off of belief in him, but both concepts are equally absurd to a non-believer. So an atheist isn't shoving anything in your face by stating that there is no god, because there's no good reason to believe in god. It's not dogmatic. It's a demand for some kind of proof before believing in something as huge as god. Just like you would demand proof from someone that believes in unicorns. They'd get mad at you for shoving anti-unicorn dogma down their throats.
Also, Dan's response was compassionate. The guy's life is going to be ruined by a delusion. He should get help dispelling the delusion so he can find happiness. Helping this poor gay guy get past his belief in God is the best way to lessen his suffering and lonliness.
This is so far off, I don't think you're reacting to anything any atheist has actually said. Saying a very simple concept out loud is not an agressive act.
Do a little thought experiment. Substitute 'god' with 'unicorn'. There is precisely equal reason to believe in god as there is to believe in unicorns. Why does god get so much special treatment? It's because you feel so strongly about God, and base so much of your life off of belief in him, but both concepts are equally absurd to a non-believer. So an atheist isn't shoving anything in your face by stating that there is no god, because there's no good reason to believe in god. It's not dogmatic. It's a demand for some kind of proof before believing in something as huge as god. Just like you would demand proof from someone that believes in unicorns. They'd get mad at you for shoving anti-unicorn dogma down their throats.
Also, Dan's response was compassionate. The guy's life is going to be ruined by a delusion. He should get help dispelling the delusion so he can find happiness. Helping this poor gay guy get past his belief in God is the best way to lessen his suffering and lonliness.
62
61 - Yeah, you're either ignoring every point I'm making or unable to comprehend them. Have fun with your strawmen.
63
@1, I was at a Wales v England rugby test once and refused (like the good republican I am) to stand for "God save the Queen". All well and good until I decided (through a mixture of laziness, apathy and beer-soakedness) also to sit through the Welsh national anthem. A crazy Welshman wanted to leather the shit out of me. Being a pig-headed Australian dickhead I refused to back down and it nearly got ugly. I realised sometime afterwards that it may have been a tad disrespectful (not to mention foolhardy - those Welshman are crazy), but for fuck's sake...
64
Before getting anything tattooed on your chest (or back) you should really think about what the people having sex with you are going to think about it while you're having sex. Do you really want to be pushing Atheism right when you partner is most likely to be shouting "Oh god!, Oh God!" even if s/he is a non-believer?
It's not as bad as some weird Twin Towers tribute or something, but it's still out of place.
It's not as bad as some weird Twin Towers tribute or something, but it's still out of place.
65
@60 - Dan is an asshole advice columnist, but he's still an advice columnist. His normal M.O. has always been to be an asshole, but to be a HELPFUL asshole. If he was just being a dick for the sake of being a dick, he wouldn't be nearly as popular or influential as he is. His column is read and loved by many (including myself) because most of the time the stuff he says in a dickish, blunt, cut-through-the-bullshit way is truly helpful, more so than anything that could be said in a polite, sensitive, considerate way could EVER be.
But telling a Christian that the answer to all his problems is to stop believing in God? Not helpful, and I'll tell you why: believing in God is not actually this guy's problem. This guy's problem is that he listens to what other people tell him about the universe and lets himself by lead by the nose rather than thinking for himself.
So what does Dan do? Well, initially he does exactly the right thing by giving the guy a few facts and considerations that will help him to think critically and question. But then, he sticks a big, fat atheist proclamation at the end of it. This is not wrong because of anything being wrong with Dan's point of view, but because this was just another attempt to tell the guy what to think.
There are plenty of people in this world who can believe in a God (Christian or not) without feeling a need to tell themselves or others that they can't be who they really are and be happy. There are also atheists who are anti-gay.
So all you atheists on this thread arguing about why God doesn't exist...you're really missing the point, here.
But telling a Christian that the answer to all his problems is to stop believing in God? Not helpful, and I'll tell you why: believing in God is not actually this guy's problem. This guy's problem is that he listens to what other people tell him about the universe and lets himself by lead by the nose rather than thinking for himself.
So what does Dan do? Well, initially he does exactly the right thing by giving the guy a few facts and considerations that will help him to think critically and question. But then, he sticks a big, fat atheist proclamation at the end of it. This is not wrong because of anything being wrong with Dan's point of view, but because this was just another attempt to tell the guy what to think.
There are plenty of people in this world who can believe in a God (Christian or not) without feeling a need to tell themselves or others that they can't be who they really are and be happy. There are also atheists who are anti-gay.
So all you atheists on this thread arguing about why God doesn't exist...you're really missing the point, here.
66
None of you will agree, but... the tattoo is perfect. I have 9 reasons why, if you're interested (but I'm sure you're more interested in why it's NOT).
(BTW, I believe in God, SAII). Can I expect you to disbelieve in me, for my virtual hello?
(BTW, I believe in God, SAII). Can I expect you to disbelieve in me, for my virtual hello?
67
Now, you have me wondering why it's perfect, Michael. FWI, I didn't like it because it distracted me from admiring his chest, which has nothing to do with what it says.
68
I do not care for the tattoo, after all you live in a democratic country...
But hey those nipples are inexistent... dommage
But hey those nipples are inexistent... dommage
69
Hey, I think I know the thug that did this guy's tattoo. He belongs to the graffiti crew 3A. Must be why the tattoo is prison fare and looks like crap.
70
@65 I was not arguing one way or another whether or not people should believe in God, nor do I feel that is my place to say. I don't care if people want to believe in such things as long as it effects only them, but if they seek my advice on something related to religion I would not hold back that there is no God just to spare someone's feelings. Whether or not I say it does not change how they feel about it anyway.
Dan throws lots of dickish proclamations at the end of lots of his pieces of advice, and this particular dickish proclamation is no different as it is part of the advice "there is no God, so you don't have to worry about what 'He' thinks of your homosexual feelings"
The problems that people have with his proclamation is merely that they either don't agree with this and therefore find it offensive, or that people demand a level of ridiculous sensitivity when it comes to religion. His method was not out of the ordinary for Dan, it is just the subject matter that everyone is whining about.
The advice seeker is not a child, it's not like accidentally saying "there is no Santa Claus" in front of your 4 year old nephew. This person is an adult, looking for adult advice.
The guy asked for Dan's advice, why should Dan hold back any part of it? Saying that "there is no God" was part of his advice. Whether he said it in a dickish, condescending manner doesn't really matter as that tends to be how Dan delivers LOTS of his advice.
And the advice seeker straight up said that he knew that Dan was generally anti-religious and what not, so somehow I doubt he was looking for a holy answer.
Dan throws lots of dickish proclamations at the end of lots of his pieces of advice, and this particular dickish proclamation is no different as it is part of the advice "there is no God, so you don't have to worry about what 'He' thinks of your homosexual feelings"
The problems that people have with his proclamation is merely that they either don't agree with this and therefore find it offensive, or that people demand a level of ridiculous sensitivity when it comes to religion. His method was not out of the ordinary for Dan, it is just the subject matter that everyone is whining about.
The advice seeker is not a child, it's not like accidentally saying "there is no Santa Claus" in front of your 4 year old nephew. This person is an adult, looking for adult advice.
The guy asked for Dan's advice, why should Dan hold back any part of it? Saying that "there is no God" was part of his advice. Whether he said it in a dickish, condescending manner doesn't really matter as that tends to be how Dan delivers LOTS of his advice.
And the advice seeker straight up said that he knew that Dan was generally anti-religious and what not, so somehow I doubt he was looking for a holy answer.
71
"The guy asked for Dan's advice, why should Dan hold back any part of it? Saying that "there is no God" was part of his advice. Whether he said it in a dickish, condescending manner doesn't really matter as that tends to be how Dan delivers LOTS of his advice."
Thanks for stating the bloody fucking obvious. My point is, it's not good advice because belief in God wasn't really the guy's problem.
And before you start with the spiel about, "Well, if you don't like Dan's advice, go elsewhere, blah blah blah..." We're free, I think, to criticize Dan's advice. He sure as hell devotes plenty of time to criticizing the advice of other columnists. The point is to develop our dialogue, and Dan has shown himself on numerous occasions to be open to criticism and to changing his approach to things as a result.
So excuse me if I think it's okay to say, "Look, Dan, I don't think you needed to proclaim God's nonexistence to this guy because that's not really going to help him and I think you said more because this is your personal crusade."
Regarding this:
"The problems that people have with his proclamation is merely that they either don't agree with this and therefore find it offensive, or that people demand a level of ridiculous sensitivity when it comes to religion."
I don't see a demand for a "ridiculous level of sensitivity." What I see is a demand for less hypocrisy. If you don't like having theism and statements about God's existence shoved in your face, you don't get to shove statements about atheism in other people's face unsolicited - this guy was clearly NOT asking for Dan's opinion in that regard, I don't care what anyone says; he was asking, "How can I be celibate?"
As a person of (non-Christian) faith, I really do go out of my way to avoid proclaiming my beliefs to be fact because I find it fucking shitty when others don't extend me the same courtesy. You can say, "Well, Dan's an asshole, blah blah blah," but really, I don't think "social authoritarian" is the kind of asshole Dan's trying to be.
More...
Thanks for stating the bloody fucking obvious. My point is, it's not good advice because belief in God wasn't really the guy's problem.
And before you start with the spiel about, "Well, if you don't like Dan's advice, go elsewhere, blah blah blah..." We're free, I think, to criticize Dan's advice. He sure as hell devotes plenty of time to criticizing the advice of other columnists. The point is to develop our dialogue, and Dan has shown himself on numerous occasions to be open to criticism and to changing his approach to things as a result.
So excuse me if I think it's okay to say, "Look, Dan, I don't think you needed to proclaim God's nonexistence to this guy because that's not really going to help him and I think you said more because this is your personal crusade."
Regarding this:
"The problems that people have with his proclamation is merely that they either don't agree with this and therefore find it offensive, or that people demand a level of ridiculous sensitivity when it comes to religion."
I don't see a demand for a "ridiculous level of sensitivity." What I see is a demand for less hypocrisy. If you don't like having theism and statements about God's existence shoved in your face, you don't get to shove statements about atheism in other people's face unsolicited - this guy was clearly NOT asking for Dan's opinion in that regard, I don't care what anyone says; he was asking, "How can I be celibate?"
As a person of (non-Christian) faith, I really do go out of my way to avoid proclaiming my beliefs to be fact because I find it fucking shitty when others don't extend me the same courtesy. You can say, "Well, Dan's an asshole, blah blah blah," but really, I don't think "social authoritarian" is the kind of asshole Dan's trying to be.
72
@71
I have nothing against calling a columnist's advice and/or views into question, but I also have every bit the same right to say "hey y'all are being ridiculous and totally overreacting, making something out of nothing, letting your personal values cloud your reasoning, etc."
Several comments in this post and responses to his previous posts have been along the lines of "you could have said that more sensitively" I would consider that to "demand a level of ridiculous sensitivity when it comes to religion" especially since no one seemed to have any problems with the opening line of "Get over yourself faggot" which would seem more offensive to me if I had to pick between the two statements.
The last line of his response to CAEM was a perfect summary to everything else that he said. It was just one more reason why celibacy was a stupid way for this kid to live the rest of his life. And really it was not that bad at all. He didn't even say "you're a child for still believing in God" (which I could then see why you would find offense) AND he was not "unsolicited" this kid was clear that this was about religion. He was also very clear that his friend told him that Dan was "anti-religious." Dan was provoked and his response was tame.
And, you fail to even acknowledge the possibility that Dan's statement was, in fact, relevant to his advice. "God is not real, therefore he doesn't care if you take it in the ass" as I said before, perfect summation to the rest of the advice. Dan doesn't come anywhere near giving this kid advice on being celibate, and since you felt that he did a good job with the rest of his response, that obviously doesn't bother you that much, so let's not kid ourselves here on what the real issue is. You are more than welcome to be offended that Dan does not agree with your personal religious views, but don't make it out to be something that it's not.
I will fully admit that I will never see this from your point of view because God is like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, you grow up and realize it is a fairy tale, a myth, something that someone told you to make you behave the way they thought was appropriate, so you will never get me to see this as an argument between "belief" systems or whatever. God simply is not real. That does not mean that I don't believe that people cannot be spiritual, in a sense that they can feel a certain closeness with nature or meditation or whatever, but that is a human creation, a thing in the mind not an explanation of humanity or it's existence.
So if someone were going to try to tell me that they were NEVER going to have sex because of the existence of God, my initial reaction would be the same as Dan's "oh it's okay honey, there is no God, have all the sex you want, just be safe."
More...
I have nothing against calling a columnist's advice and/or views into question, but I also have every bit the same right to say "hey y'all are being ridiculous and totally overreacting, making something out of nothing, letting your personal values cloud your reasoning, etc."
Several comments in this post and responses to his previous posts have been along the lines of "you could have said that more sensitively" I would consider that to "demand a level of ridiculous sensitivity when it comes to religion" especially since no one seemed to have any problems with the opening line of "Get over yourself faggot" which would seem more offensive to me if I had to pick between the two statements.
The last line of his response to CAEM was a perfect summary to everything else that he said. It was just one more reason why celibacy was a stupid way for this kid to live the rest of his life. And really it was not that bad at all. He didn't even say "you're a child for still believing in God" (which I could then see why you would find offense) AND he was not "unsolicited" this kid was clear that this was about religion. He was also very clear that his friend told him that Dan was "anti-religious." Dan was provoked and his response was tame.
And, you fail to even acknowledge the possibility that Dan's statement was, in fact, relevant to his advice. "God is not real, therefore he doesn't care if you take it in the ass" as I said before, perfect summation to the rest of the advice. Dan doesn't come anywhere near giving this kid advice on being celibate, and since you felt that he did a good job with the rest of his response, that obviously doesn't bother you that much, so let's not kid ourselves here on what the real issue is. You are more than welcome to be offended that Dan does not agree with your personal religious views, but don't make it out to be something that it's not.
I will fully admit that I will never see this from your point of view because God is like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, you grow up and realize it is a fairy tale, a myth, something that someone told you to make you behave the way they thought was appropriate, so you will never get me to see this as an argument between "belief" systems or whatever. God simply is not real. That does not mean that I don't believe that people cannot be spiritual, in a sense that they can feel a certain closeness with nature or meditation or whatever, but that is a human creation, a thing in the mind not an explanation of humanity or it's existence.
So if someone were going to try to tell me that they were NEVER going to have sex because of the existence of God, my initial reaction would be the same as Dan's "oh it's okay honey, there is no God, have all the sex you want, just be safe."
73
Laurelgardner--
You bring up a really great example of why we _shouldn't_ treat people's beliefs with respect, even though we respect their _right_ to hold whatever beliefs they want.
So you believe in magick and energy work. That's great and all, and you're perfectly entitled to do that.
But then you claim they accord with quantum physics.
That's just totally, totally wrong. In fact, science has shown over and over again that things like magick, like astrology, are not real. You're misrepresenting physics, and if you said to an actual physicist that magick and physics were compatible, they'd be well within their rights to laugh at you.
You believe something that is demonstrably not compatible with what we know about the universe. I respect your right to hold these beliefs, but I can't respect your beliefs themselves, and I certainly don't think anyone should hold back from criticising those beliefs. Not criticising _you_ as a person, but your beliefs. It doesn't matter how much you believe something: that doesn't stop you from being wrong about it.
You bring up a really great example of why we _shouldn't_ treat people's beliefs with respect, even though we respect their _right_ to hold whatever beliefs they want.
So you believe in magick and energy work. That's great and all, and you're perfectly entitled to do that.
But then you claim they accord with quantum physics.
That's just totally, totally wrong. In fact, science has shown over and over again that things like magick, like astrology, are not real. You're misrepresenting physics, and if you said to an actual physicist that magick and physics were compatible, they'd be well within their rights to laugh at you.
You believe something that is demonstrably not compatible with what we know about the universe. I respect your right to hold these beliefs, but I can't respect your beliefs themselves, and I certainly don't think anyone should hold back from criticising those beliefs. Not criticising _you_ as a person, but your beliefs. It doesn't matter how much you believe something: that doesn't stop you from being wrong about it.
74
@ 42 44 & 65 cheers and I agree with you. Expressing disbelief in God is not itself a problem but the context, in which the expression was made, possibly undid all the previous good advice offered. If the desired result was to help this guy then it was not a good thing to say. If the desired result was to create controversy and a lively dialogue then it was quite effective :)
@ 73 I do not believe you are correct. Study of the intricacies of the universe does not turn scientists into atheists except perhaps in the strictest sense of a disbelief in "the old bearded authoritarian dude in the sky." One of Einstein's quotes that I believe sums up the spirituality of science best is: "The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when contemplating the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of the mystery every day. The important thing is not to stop questioning; never lose a holy curiosity."
@ 73 I do not believe you are correct. Study of the intricacies of the universe does not turn scientists into atheists except perhaps in the strictest sense of a disbelief in "the old bearded authoritarian dude in the sky." One of Einstein's quotes that I believe sums up the spirituality of science best is: "The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when contemplating the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of the mystery every day. The important thing is not to stop questioning; never lose a holy curiosity."
75
73 - I didn't say anything I believe is *proven* by quantum physics. I said it's *consistent.* I don't think anything I believe is truly proven, or I wouldn't refer to it as "belief." Furthermore, there's a great deal of nonsense within the New Age community that I don't subscribe to - my beliefs are based on my own experiments (I could tell you more about these if you like, as they're probably the closest thing to proof that I have, but I'm guessing this thread is about to dissappear from Dan's blog at any second).
77
73-
Einstein was talking about a sense of wonder at the universe: a feeling, not a belief. If you want to call that "spirituality" go right ahead, but please don't confuse feelings of awe, beauty, and wonder with specific beliefs that the world works in certain ways. Most scientists reject all active belief in anything supernatural, but are still fully capable of feeling just like anyone else. Feelings and beliefs are not the same thing.
75-
I didn't say "proven" either. Any form of magick that can supposedly influence the outside world in any slight way is inconsistent with the laws of physics as we understand them from the best available data. If you have experimental evidence to the contrary, that'd be a huge deal and I think you could win a very large sum of money from the James Randi Educational Foundation. You'd want to carefully check your methodology first though. :)
Einstein was talking about a sense of wonder at the universe: a feeling, not a belief. If you want to call that "spirituality" go right ahead, but please don't confuse feelings of awe, beauty, and wonder with specific beliefs that the world works in certain ways. Most scientists reject all active belief in anything supernatural, but are still fully capable of feeling just like anyone else. Feelings and beliefs are not the same thing.
75-
I didn't say "proven" either. Any form of magick that can supposedly influence the outside world in any slight way is inconsistent with the laws of physics as we understand them from the best available data. If you have experimental evidence to the contrary, that'd be a huge deal and I think you could win a very large sum of money from the James Randi Educational Foundation. You'd want to carefully check your methodology first though. :)
78
devilsmoke, Cory, Julie in Eugene, put on a shirt, et. al. I just really cannot see how Dan's original line, including the bit from John Lennon, was that all disrespectful.
It also bothers me how no-one flinches when the situation is reversed: If a distraught atheist or non-theist seeks emotional support from a theist, it's not considered offensive in the least or being a dick when the response rolls around to well, if Jesus was your co-pilot, you wouldn't feel like this.
MR. Language Person about a year and a half ago, my non-theist grandmother's funeral was given the evangelist treatment as it was turned into a proselytical sermon replete with inferences such as Virginia's going to Heaven; where are you going? My father, a hard-atheist rocket scientist made me swear not to let this happen at his funeral.
Criminy! I wishfully do imagine all the people living for today.
It also bothers me how no-one flinches when the situation is reversed: If a distraught atheist or non-theist seeks emotional support from a theist, it's not considered offensive in the least or being a dick when the response rolls around to well, if Jesus was your co-pilot, you wouldn't feel like this.
MR. Language Person about a year and a half ago, my non-theist grandmother's funeral was given the evangelist treatment as it was turned into a proselytical sermon replete with inferences such as Virginia's going to Heaven; where are you going? My father, a hard-atheist rocket scientist made me swear not to let this happen at his funeral.
Criminy! I wishfully do imagine all the people living for today.
79
Uriel-238,
I do flinch. Then, I should be honest and admit that I'm an utter failure at evangelism. I can answer people who ask me, but I can't open my mouth to proselytize. I tried to force it, but it doesn't work. I guess that I'm not wired that way, and I'm at peace with it now. It feels cruel to dismiss someones feelings and beliefs when they are hurting, I'd much rather offer them a shoulder, hear them out, and brainstorm with them or sit silent with them in their sorrow. It seems that often people want to know that they have been heard more than they want actual advice. They really want to know that they can trust you with their heart.
I do flinch. Then, I should be honest and admit that I'm an utter failure at evangelism. I can answer people who ask me, but I can't open my mouth to proselytize. I tried to force it, but it doesn't work. I guess that I'm not wired that way, and I'm at peace with it now. It feels cruel to dismiss someones feelings and beliefs when they are hurting, I'd much rather offer them a shoulder, hear them out, and brainstorm with them or sit silent with them in their sorrow. It seems that often people want to know that they have been heard more than they want actual advice. They really want to know that they can trust you with their heart.
80
I feel Kim @ 39 said it best:
"Goodness, Love, all you had to say to CAEM was, "Lastly, kiddo I can't relate to your struggle, and I can't imagine choosing a celibate life. You see, I don't believe there is a God, or a heaven or hell. So, I don't share your guilt."
That would have been the decent way of responding. Sometimes I feel Dan forgets that.
"Goodness, Love, all you had to say to CAEM was, "Lastly, kiddo I can't relate to your struggle, and I can't imagine choosing a celibate life. You see, I don't believe there is a God, or a heaven or hell. So, I don't share your guilt."
That would have been the decent way of responding. Sometimes I feel Dan forgets that.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Pill The Homos! by Dan Savage
-
Dear Huffington Post... by Dan Savage
-
Because Guns Make Us More Safer by Goldy
-
The Rick Santorum Rally in Tacoma Probably Could Have Gone Better by Paul Constant
-
Slog Bible Study: Deuteronomy 21:10-14 by Goldy
-
The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Because Guns Make Us Safer by Goldy
-
Gay Kids Are Still Killing Themselves by Dan Savage
-
Gregoire: "This is signed!" by Eli Sanders
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (80) RSS