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News & ArtsSaturday, August 1, 2009
Homo Three Shot Dead During Gay Youth Support Group Meeting
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:09 PM
It happened in the basement of the gay community center, says the AP...
Israeli police say a gunman entered a youth club for gay teens in central Tel Aviv on Saturday night and sprayed the interior with automatic rifle fire, killing three people and injuring 11.... He said the gunman burst into the basement of the Tel Aviv Gay and Lesbian Association and opened fire on a support group for gay teenagers.
It happened at the entrance to the center, says the NYT:
A masked man opened fire on a crowd at a gay community center in Tel Aviv late Saturday, killing three people and wounding at least 10 others, the Israeli emergency services said.A young man and a young woman were killed on the spot and the third victim died in hospital, the authorities said, and one of those who were wounded was in serious condition. The gunman, who was dressed in black, unloaded an automatic weapon as he fired on the group of young gay men and lesbians near the entrance of the center, witnesses said, and he then ran away.
The gunman is at large. An unknown religious extremist—a Jewish one—is considered the likely suspect.
2
Poor Israelis. They're the only civilized people in the Middle East, and they get it from both sides -- Jews and Arabs. Palestinian gays get beat up, then dumped at the checkpoints.
3
At first I thought this happened in America. It's a shame, and I hope they catch the person that did this. Feels weird that a Jew would do this though - you don't hear about their prejudices against others. Its normally always the other way around.
6
@3 Jews can certainly have their own prejudices, and I say that as a Jew. Bottom line, though, fundamentalists of all stripes are crazy dangerous people.
My heart goes out to those kids and their families. Tel Aviv is about the most liberal city in Israel. For them to be targeted there is just ... well, I suppose it would be God-awful anywhere, but it kills me that they thought they were safe.
My heart goes out to those kids and their families. Tel Aviv is about the most liberal city in Israel. For them to be targeted there is just ... well, I suppose it would be God-awful anywhere, but it kills me that they thought they were safe.
8
@3: Sadly it is all too believable that "a Jew would do this". The fundamentalist, far-right, and ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups have a great deal of power in Israel - to the point that Reform Jews (which is an older branch/movement of Judaism that the Conservative movement) are often marginalized and dismissed.
Keep in mind that religious extremists have more in common with other religious extremists that they do with the more moderate members of the religions that they claim to represent.
Even though many Israelis consider themselves to be secular or liberal (especially in a city like Tel Aviv which is quite liberal and secular), it doesn't lessen the power that the far Right has on the government.
It was a Jewish Right-wing extremist that assassinated Rabin, so it shouldn't be too surprising that another one of those narrow-minded, hate filled individuals should attack GLBT youth in a place where they should have felt safe (in a city that has a known active GLBT community).
I doubt very much if this tragic event will stop the Right-wingers from their campaigns of homophobia and anti-tolerance. Perhaps the best we can hope for is that this will prompt the more liberal elements of Israeli society, and moderate Jews worldwide to understand how important it is to support and protect the rights of the LGBTQ community and ensure that LGBTQ individuals are afforded full rights and protections under the laws of the lands that they live in. The same rights and protections that Jews have fought for in all the lands that they live in.
Keep in mind that religious extremists have more in common with other religious extremists that they do with the more moderate members of the religions that they claim to represent.
Even though many Israelis consider themselves to be secular or liberal (especially in a city like Tel Aviv which is quite liberal and secular), it doesn't lessen the power that the far Right has on the government.
It was a Jewish Right-wing extremist that assassinated Rabin, so it shouldn't be too surprising that another one of those narrow-minded, hate filled individuals should attack GLBT youth in a place where they should have felt safe (in a city that has a known active GLBT community).
I doubt very much if this tragic event will stop the Right-wingers from their campaigns of homophobia and anti-tolerance. Perhaps the best we can hope for is that this will prompt the more liberal elements of Israeli society, and moderate Jews worldwide to understand how important it is to support and protect the rights of the LGBTQ community and ensure that LGBTQ individuals are afforded full rights and protections under the laws of the lands that they live in. The same rights and protections that Jews have fought for in all the lands that they live in.
9
I've often feared that something like this could happen on our turf. It might be on the other side of the world, but it's still horrible. Condolences to all, and I hope they catch the bastard.
10
@5, Israel is the only country in the Middle East that can claim to be a liberal democracy. We've been watching how they do it in Iran; in Jordan, honor killings are common; Syria and Egypt are totalitarian military states; Saudi Arabia is one family's fiefdom; and on and on. The closest you could point to is Lebanon, which is unfortunately barely a state at all, caught as it is in the Hezbollah vice and the cloud of murder. The Gulf States? Slave states, more like. Kuwait? Yemen? Sudan?
You can judge a country's level of civilization pretty closely by the level of oppression of gays -- not the right to marriage, but the right to exist.. Israel is the only country in the Middle East where gays have any rights at all. In most places, homosexuality is a capital offense. In Iran they hang them; in Saudi Arabia they crush them under falling walls.
If you consider Turkey to be "the Middle East" and not "Europe", I'll grant you that one.
You can judge a country's level of civilization pretty closely by the level of oppression of gays -- not the right to marriage, but the right to exist.. Israel is the only country in the Middle East where gays have any rights at all. In most places, homosexuality is a capital offense. In Iran they hang them; in Saudi Arabia they crush them under falling walls.
If you consider Turkey to be "the Middle East" and not "Europe", I'll grant you that one.
11
i live in a neighborhood, in MANHATTAN, the one in NYC, where there is a sect of orthodox jews which believes that dogs are the carriers of evil spirits. srsly! in this day and age, women in wigs are literally running into traffic to avoid the terror that is my ten-pound, fuzzy, old, pathologically shy, gay dog. which is yet another proof of my theory that extreme religious fervor is a mental illness.
also, even more unrelated, the sailor who killed the gay sailor out in san diego supposedly SUFFOCATED HIMSELF WITH HIS OWN PILLOW. yeah. hm. sounds likely! right?
also, even more unrelated, the sailor who killed the gay sailor out in san diego supposedly SUFFOCATED HIMSELF WITH HIS OWN PILLOW. yeah. hm. sounds likely! right?
13
It's true. I am available if you need someone to wipe his ass on your flag -- or mine, if you prefer.
14
@10 Fnarf, you went from calling Israelis "the only civilized people" to defending your statements by talking about governmental systems. True, the ruling powers in most Arab states are pretty fucked up. But that doesn't make all Arab peoples uncivilized by default. There are plenty of Arabs working and fighting for a more progressive society. It doesn't help anything to write off a whole section of humanity because of their oppressive leaders.
15
Yeah, OK, fair enough. I'm being provocative.
But there's a wide gap between progressive Israelis and the vast majority of the people in most of those countries; it's extraordinarily unlikely that Egypt, for instance, would become a liberal, progressive, modern society if Mubarak dropped dead tomorrow. Or the Sauds. There are no liberals or progressives anywhere on the Arabian peninsula, in fact. Iran? Well, we all got our hopes up there, and Iran is a complex, modern, technological society under the mullahs' skirts. But you could put in liberal governments in every single country in the region, and you wouldn't see modernism sprouting up outside of a handful of enclaves.
And an awful lot of the people "working and fighting for a more progressive society" have well-thumbed copies of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" on their bedside tables. The region is desperately in need of an Enlightenment, you can't deny that.
Lebanon is the one I feel sorry for. They got fairly close there for a while. Can you think of any other Middle Eastern country it would be thinkable to be gay in? I sure can't. Governments or no.
But there's a wide gap between progressive Israelis and the vast majority of the people in most of those countries; it's extraordinarily unlikely that Egypt, for instance, would become a liberal, progressive, modern society if Mubarak dropped dead tomorrow. Or the Sauds. There are no liberals or progressives anywhere on the Arabian peninsula, in fact. Iran? Well, we all got our hopes up there, and Iran is a complex, modern, technological society under the mullahs' skirts. But you could put in liberal governments in every single country in the region, and you wouldn't see modernism sprouting up outside of a handful of enclaves.
And an awful lot of the people "working and fighting for a more progressive society" have well-thumbed copies of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" on their bedside tables. The region is desperately in need of an Enlightenment, you can't deny that.
Lebanon is the one I feel sorry for. They got fairly close there for a while. Can you think of any other Middle Eastern country it would be thinkable to be gay in? I sure can't. Governments or no.
16
The thing about freedom is that all freedom comes from conflict.
When a particular strand of religion holds the vast majority of the people, there is no freedom of religion, they simply assume power and enforce their beliefs on everyone else. If, however, multiple religions are major players, then and only then does religious freedom come into play -- basically, the motivation is a fear of being dominated by someone else's beliefs, not a genuine respect for freedom in general. Hence the Reformation, by creating multiple large camps of religious belief, each with a lot of power, in the long run, created religious freedom in Europe and the Americas.
You only call a truce if you're not sure you're gonna win.
For this reason, it wasn't generally in the historical interest of Jews to try and enforce their religious laws. They were far outnumbered, plain and simple.
For this reason, you only see fundie Jews being huge assholes to other people (rather than just fucking up their own lives) in Israel.
When a particular strand of religion holds the vast majority of the people, there is no freedom of religion, they simply assume power and enforce their beliefs on everyone else. If, however, multiple religions are major players, then and only then does religious freedom come into play -- basically, the motivation is a fear of being dominated by someone else's beliefs, not a genuine respect for freedom in general. Hence the Reformation, by creating multiple large camps of religious belief, each with a lot of power, in the long run, created religious freedom in Europe and the Americas.
You only call a truce if you're not sure you're gonna win.
For this reason, it wasn't generally in the historical interest of Jews to try and enforce their religious laws. They were far outnumbered, plain and simple.
For this reason, you only see fundie Jews being huge assholes to other people (rather than just fucking up their own lives) in Israel.
17
I think they should find the shooter, give him numerous automatic weapons, and send him back so he can kill the Faggots he missed the first time. Then they should give him medals and put him in charge of an anti-faggot army.
18
"City of Borders" played at SIFF this year, it was a fairly decent look at how gays/lesbians are treated in that region of the world.
It's not out on dvd yet, but the trailer is still at:
http://www.siff.net/festival/film/detail…
19
THis is nothing more than a jew killing jews. I can't believe there are so damn many ignorant and stupid jews out there in the world. Televiv <--- Liberal??? Seriously, you've got to be kidding! LEt's not forget those FINE ORTHODOX Rabies in NY who bought body parts for $10 grand and turned around and sold them for $100K. We should all read the best selling book, "What It Means To Be a Jew" by Bernard Madoff. Poor Israelis...I'll make sure to flush twice to send my condolances.
23
There's been an update on Joe.My.God. Massive manhunt and protests in Tel Aviv and the anti-gay U.S. "messianic Jewish conservative leader" Dr. Michael Brown is being a douche.
24
This asshole will be caught quickly. It's a very small country and impossible to keep secrets. Please remember that Israel is actually very progressive when it comes to gays. Gays can serve in the military, gay marriages performed elsewhere are recognized, there are openly gay politicians, sodomy was decriminalized in the '80s, gays can adopt, and really, people are pretty chill about it, even in Jerusalem. This guy will end up universally reviled, and the idiots among the haredim who start off with somewhat defensive statements will end up backpedaling in the face of public opprobrium.
25
The updates on Joe My God also mention that many of the kids that were at the center weren't out yet to their families and that some parents learned that their child was gay when they were called to hospital.
27
@3 There's threats of violence from Orthodox Rabbi's every year during the gay rights events in Israel so, no, it's not that surprising.
28
7- Not sure the lessons of the Holocaust has been as widely learned as one might hope.
I know. People will look the other way at any Nazi like behavior if the perpetrators are African, Arab or Muslim. It is time one stop applying "cultural relativism" to avoid offending the offensive. There are places in African where woman and gays are treated worse than the black man 1940's Alabama. The Nazi's killed people for being gay. There are dozen's of countries where this is going on but it is taboo to be to judgemental about it cause the pereptrators are people-o-color.
If this shooting had taken place in Jamaica there would be widespead support for the shooter. Sad how people treat others how they were once treated.
I know. People will look the other way at any Nazi like behavior if the perpetrators are African, Arab or Muslim. It is time one stop applying "cultural relativism" to avoid offending the offensive. There are places in African where woman and gays are treated worse than the black man 1940's Alabama. The Nazi's killed people for being gay. There are dozen's of countries where this is going on but it is taboo to be to judgemental about it cause the pereptrators are people-o-color.
If this shooting had taken place in Jamaica there would be widespead support for the shooter. Sad how people treat others how they were once treated.
29
Didn't 80% of black folks vote to deprive gays of their civil rights... then refer to gays as bigots for pointing this out? Then blacks placed the responisbility for their actions on gays for not "outreaching " enough????
One jewish israei guy does something and people make weird ass negative comments about israeli's and jews in general. But 80% of african americans do something and you are a bigot for saying it reflects badly upon them?
One jewish israei guy does something and people make weird ass negative comments about israeli's and jews in general. But 80% of african americans do something and you are a bigot for saying it reflects badly upon them?
30
Dan, I'm wondering where you read that the suspect is a Jewish extreamist? As of this writing I have not read anything that indicates there is any hint as to the background of the killer.
To all the people who are using this event to dis on the Jewish people, Israeli or otherwise, I suggest you compare the number of hate crimes against gays in Israeli with those of other coutries. Furthmore when it comes to gay rights Jews have been found to have more liberal views than non-Jews.
To all the people who are using this event to dis on the Jewish people, Israeli or otherwise, I suggest you compare the number of hate crimes against gays in Israeli with those of other coutries. Furthmore when it comes to gay rights Jews have been found to have more liberal views than non-Jews.
32
"Dan, I'm wondering where you read that the suspect is a Jewish extreamist?
...
Furthmore when it comes to gay rights Jews have been found to have more liberal views than non-Jews."
We're talking about the Orthodox, a group with inherently non-liberal and fanatical views which you're conveniently ignoring.
...
Furthmore when it comes to gay rights Jews have been found to have more liberal views than non-Jews."
We're talking about the Orthodox, a group with inherently non-liberal and fanatical views which you're conveniently ignoring.
33
"Didn't 80% of black folks vote to deprive gays of their civil rights... then refer to gays as bigots for pointing this out? "
No, they didn't.
http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/a…
No, they didn't.
http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/a…
34
See also
http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/a…
But keep on pushing that bullshit, we haven't had enough of it lately.
http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/a…
But keep on pushing that bullshit, we haven't had enough of it lately.
35
@32 - Not even Orthodox. There are plenty of Modern Orthodox (Jews who believe in following traditional law in their personal lives, but also believe in integration with the modern world) who are totally non-dogmatic and tolerant towards others. There are a bunch in my family. What we're talking about here are the Ultra-Orthodox, otherwise known as the "Black Hats," although they prefer to call themselves "Torah-True." They're the equivalents of born-again fundamentalists in Christianity.
They are very conservative. And they have much more power in Israel than they do in the US, unfortunately.
They are very conservative. And they have much more power in Israel than they do in the US, unfortunately.
37
To follow up on what @35 said - the Ultra-Orthodox are also referred or refer to themselves as "Frum" - which is highly religious. These are the same type of folks who feel that if a book isn't directly about religious thought and biblical study and discussion that it is unworthy to exist.
Many secular works (in Yiddish) have been destroyed by these fundamentalist Jews.
One should not include all Jews who identify as Orthodox in with these people. Most modern Orthodox (and there are many in the U.K. and the U.S.) tend to be quite progressive and tolerant (though, as with all groups there will be exceptions).
The Frum really do have a disproportional amount of power in Israeli politics and society - much to the dismay of the more liberal and progressive elements both in Israel and in the U.S. and other countries as well.
Many secular works (in Yiddish) have been destroyed by these fundamentalist Jews.
One should not include all Jews who identify as Orthodox in with these people. Most modern Orthodox (and there are many in the U.K. and the U.S.) tend to be quite progressive and tolerant (though, as with all groups there will be exceptions).
The Frum really do have a disproportional amount of power in Israeli politics and society - much to the dismay of the more liberal and progressive elements both in Israel and in the U.S. and other countries as well.
38
On Towleroad it is being reported that the police think that the attack may have been personally motivated.
http://www.towleroad.com/2009/08/police-…
Considering that early reports mentioned that the youth center wasn't marked from the outside, and that someone would have to know where to go in order to find it, there is a certain amount of credibility that the shooter either followed someone to the location or was somehow familiar with the location. Even if "personal feud" was a motive, it still doesn't make the mass shooting of gay and lesbian youth any less of a hate crime.
I am hoping that this isn't a case of a self-hating, closeted person having committed the crime.
http://www.towleroad.com/2009/08/police-…
Considering that early reports mentioned that the youth center wasn't marked from the outside, and that someone would have to know where to go in order to find it, there is a certain amount of credibility that the shooter either followed someone to the location or was somehow familiar with the location. Even if "personal feud" was a motive, it still doesn't make the mass shooting of gay and lesbian youth any less of a hate crime.
I am hoping that this isn't a case of a self-hating, closeted person having committed the crime.
39
@fnarf. Actually I've spent a lot of time in Jordan, and while it is definitely 99% monarchy, and honor killings are still definitely an issue, I have personally met plenty of openly gay folks there. They even have a few bars known to be for gays. I wouldn't describe it as easy or safe to be openly gay in Jordan by any stretch, but its probably only slightly more dangerous than being openly gay in Texas.
Also calling Israelis as a whole 'the only civilized people in the middle east' is supremely fucked up. I disagree very much with violent bigots, whether they are oppressing gays, Palestinians, liberals or women. And Israel is doing plenty of oppressing which is awfully uncivilized by any measure.
Also calling Israelis as a whole 'the only civilized people in the middle east' is supremely fucked up. I disagree very much with violent bigots, whether they are oppressing gays, Palestinians, liberals or women. And Israel is doing plenty of oppressing which is awfully uncivilized by any measure.
40
How come only 2 fags were killed? Get rid of all gays and lesbians. Filthy scum. God created Adam and Eve. He did not create Adam and Ed. He did not create Eve and Edna.
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