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News & ArtsMonday, August 3, 2009
City Banning Smoking in Seattle Parks
Posted by Dominic Holden on Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 2:54 PM
Today at the Seattle Post-Globe, Philip Dawdy writes a screed about City Council Member Tom Rasmussen's idea to ban smoking in city parks:
As for alleged dangers caused by outdoor exposure to secondhand smoke, it's difficult to imagine how the very brief exposure one might get from passing an outdoor smoker could do much of anything except bother their sense of smell and incite their moral outrage. And unless someone is standing or sitting pretty close to a smoker, I can't guess how they or any researcher could claim exposure of any kind as smoke does dissipate quickly outdoors. Especially in the wind and the rain—and we have plenty of wind and rain in our parks.
I hate smoking. It's gross, it stinks, it kills. Smokers smell weird. But they should be allowed to smoke if they want. Specifically, they should be allowed to smoke in their own free-standing home or outside. But already our state indoor smoking ban contains a provision that prohibits smoking within 25 feet of a window, door, or ventilation port. That basically means that, in a dense neighborhood, you have two places where it's legal to smoke: in the middle of the street or in parks. So if the city council banned smoking in parks and folks in Belltown wanted to smoke legally: too bad.
Sure, parks would be a nano-slice healthier if smoking were to cease there (and only the tiniest bit healthier, as Dawdy points out, as the amount of second-hand smoke outside is minute). But parks would also be healthier places if we banned car exhaust, dangerous sports, and fattening picnics. We can't ban everything.
Smoking is legal. Banning it everywhere (or in places where people will do it regardless) is an attempt to make it illegal. Never mind arguments about the right to do what you want with your own body (have sex with the consenting adult of your choice, drink booze, have an abortion, etc.)—prohibiting popular human behavior never ends well.
Realistically, nobody would stop smoking just because the city council passes some ludicrously onerous rule. People will continue smoking in parks, just as they currently smoke on sidewalks. Laws that don't work and can't be enforced undermine all the sensible laws that should be obeyed.
2
This is silly.
Obviously we need to impose a fee on smoking in public parks.
I suggest 20 cents per cigarette and 25 cents for a cigar.
Luckily, this will stop all the poor people and bums from smoking, and let the rich people continue to ignore it, as they flip a quarter at the cop busting them, and laugh about how "pure" they are, since we can exempt anyone with a cigarette holder ...
Obviously we need to impose a fee on smoking in public parks.
I suggest 20 cents per cigarette and 25 cents for a cigar.
Luckily, this will stop all the poor people and bums from smoking, and let the rich people continue to ignore it, as they flip a quarter at the cop busting them, and laugh about how "pure" they are, since we can exempt anyone with a cigarette holder ...
3
Let'em smoke in the parks. I don't want to have to slalom through smokers standing in the middle of arterials, catching a drag.
4
If this did manage to get passed, wouldn't it just end up like the 25 foot rule in the smoking ban, rarely enforced when first enacted, then largely forgotten about?
5
Yeah--as much as I don't like smoking, banning it in parks seems wrong headed. While I've definitely had run ins with inconsiderate smokers--a park is not a confined space, if I don't want to be next to a human chimney, I can move up wind of them.
6
I still think that we should let 50% of non-venue bars apply for a smoking license, so that smoker-drinkers can sequester themselves in places that non-smokers can then avoid. That should reduce smoking in the street. (I hate swerving around those bastards.)
7
I don't smoke and I also don't like how it smells.
However, the anti-smoking campaign is becoming so overbearing that I find myself on the side of the smokers almost all the time.
People who don't like smokers have already gotten plenty of stuff their way. They have plenty of places they can go to get away from smokers. Now they're just being mean.
However, the anti-smoking campaign is becoming so overbearing that I find myself on the side of the smokers almost all the time.
People who don't like smokers have already gotten plenty of stuff their way. They have plenty of places they can go to get away from smokers. Now they're just being mean.
8
I agree that banning smoking in parks is silly. At the same time, when I'm running (in my neighborhood or say at Greenlake) and I pass a smoker, I really hate taking in a big lung-full of their smoke! Then again, the exhaust from the cars is probably doing me more damage.
9
agreeeeeed.....i hate smoking as much as the next guy and am pro-banning-in-bars but this takes it too far....way too far....
there is no way this idea will get anywhere...any rational person sees this issue as retarded.....
there is no way this idea will get anywhere...any rational person sees this issue as retarded.....
10
We already don't enforce the litter laws when it comes to my biggest peeve with smokers - tossing butts wherever. I don't hold out much hope for enforcing something like this, either, so why bother?
12
Banning things is what small-minded bureaucrats do - because it's infinitely less taxing than having to engage their brains and actually use them.
13
Next: impure thoughts...such as even thinking about smoking... whilst nude. When you walk down a street in any city, you inhale more pollutants from automobile exhaust than you will ever inhale from the infrequent outlaw, the smoker as leper. And then they came for the alcoholics and the chubs.
15
im going to go outside and have a smoke right now.
i havent been eating as much since i picked up smoking again, then again, i cant run 4 miles anymore either. but dammit they are SO SO good.
i havent been eating as much since i picked up smoking again, then again, i cant run 4 miles anymore either. but dammit they are SO SO good.
16
When you outlaw smoking, only outlaws will smoke.
Or something like that.
Wait, let me try another one.
You can have my smokes when you pry them from my cold dead nicotine-stained fingers.
Or something like that.
Wait, let me try another one.
You can have my smokes when you pry them from my cold dead nicotine-stained fingers.
17
We're obviously missing something here.
Let's go one step forward.
If they're going to ban pit bulls from Army bases, why not use them, after some training, as cigarette attack dogs?
People might say they'll smoke, but after the first pit bull kills a 10 yo smoker, you can bet the rest of the kids will never smoke in public parks.
Let's go one step forward.
If they're going to ban pit bulls from Army bases, why not use them, after some training, as cigarette attack dogs?
People might say they'll smoke, but after the first pit bull kills a 10 yo smoker, you can bet the rest of the kids will never smoke in public parks.
18
I don't know, Dom. Ever been trapped behind a puffer on a city sidewalk?
And since - I've heard - cigarette butts are the #1 form of solid waste litter in the country, I'm with 11. Consume your own butts.
And since - I've heard - cigarette butts are the #1 form of solid waste litter in the country, I'm with 11. Consume your own butts.
19
Tom's up for re-election, isn't he?
Smokers are easy to pick on, and any real politician would be too afraid of being labeled "pro-smoking" to call this out for it's stupidity.
All prohibitive laws do is turn citizens against each other, which I guess if people are constantly on each others cases they can't get on the governments case.
Smokers are easy to pick on, and any real politician would be too afraid of being labeled "pro-smoking" to call this out for it's stupidity.
All prohibitive laws do is turn citizens against each other, which I guess if people are constantly on each others cases they can't get on the governments case.
21
In the future when pot is legal people will light up a joint to cover up the smell of their cigarette. Tomacco anyone?
(the anti smokers are getting downright psychotic!)
(the anti smokers are getting downright psychotic!)
22
The most vehement anti-smokers are those who quit.
Most of us who haven't ever smoked really only get upset when you act like a jerk and blow the smoke in our face.
Mind you, that only works until your lights get punched out.
Most of us who haven't ever smoked really only get upset when you act like a jerk and blow the smoke in our face.
Mind you, that only works until your lights get punched out.
23
I am with fifty two eighty. this makes you left coaster look like the nuts that fox news portrays. And I hate smoke.
24
Whatever - I HATE finding the perfect place to sit at Madison only to have some ass light up right next to me.
25
If we can't Smoke in Parks
Where? will we Toke our Joints?!?
And if we can't Toke our Joints
How? will we know Who? to Vote For?!?
Where? will we Toke our Joints?!?
And if we can't Toke our Joints
How? will we know Who? to Vote For?!?
26
I was walking Green Lake last week when two walkers ahead of me lit up. Are you fucking kidding me? In one of the most athletic and pristine places in Seattle you're gonna light up and walk around leaving a trail of toxic, smelly smoke for me to breath in. FUCK YOU. Don't come looking for sympathy when you are diagnosed with lung cancer.
Needless to say, I support the idea.
Needless to say, I support the idea.
27
It makes a lot more sense for smoking to be legal in bars and illegal in parks than the opposite, current reality. One strategically-placed smoker can ruin a nice outdoor experience for a lot of people. And unfortunately too many smokers do not understand this or choose to ignore it.
I'm generally against this sort of legislation, and I'm not particularly outdoorsy either, but when I'm watching a soccer game and someone nearby lights up a nasty cigar it pisses me off. Same for when I am on a run and need to hold my breath when I pass through a cloud of vile second-hand smoke.
Smokers should look at the way the tide is going on this issue and use some common sense. Because people like me lose NOTHING by voting for something like this.
I'm generally against this sort of legislation, and I'm not particularly outdoorsy either, but when I'm watching a soccer game and someone nearby lights up a nasty cigar it pisses me off. Same for when I am on a run and need to hold my breath when I pass through a cloud of vile second-hand smoke.
Smokers should look at the way the tide is going on this issue and use some common sense. Because people like me lose NOTHING by voting for something like this.
28
And people think this will actually stop other people from smoking wherever they want outdoors? Good luck with that.
29
Generally people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies except where it impinges on another person's rights. In that case the issue gets more complex. You completely gloss over that aspect. For example, take your comparison to "drink booze". Notice, there ARE cases where drinking is regulated. Driving drunk is against the law because other peoples' right to not get killed by your drunk and swerving ass trumps your right to get wasted and drive.
I actually am ambivalent about this proposed ban, but in our society the reality is that you simply do NOT have "the right to do what you want with your own body". Or rather, you do have that right with a LOT of exceptions. Drinking, controlled substances, suicide, murdering people, jacking off in public, incest. Regardless of what you think of these laws you have to admit that any reasonable person would accept that there are SOME exceptions to a fully libertarian notion of you can do whatever you want with your body.
Whether transient second-hand smoke in an open space constitutes any danger to anyone is totally debatle.
But let's not pretend that we live in a society where a person's right to do with their body what they want trumps all other countervailing rights.
Never mind arguments about the right to do what you want with your own body (have sex with the consenting adult of your choice, drink booze, have an abortion, etc.)
Generally people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies except where it impinges on another person's rights. In that case the issue gets more complex. You completely gloss over that aspect. For example, take your comparison to "drink booze". Notice, there ARE cases where drinking is regulated. Driving drunk is against the law because other peoples' right to not get killed by your drunk and swerving ass trumps your right to get wasted and drive.
I actually am ambivalent about this proposed ban, but in our society the reality is that you simply do NOT have "the right to do what you want with your own body". Or rather, you do have that right with a LOT of exceptions. Drinking, controlled substances, suicide, murdering people, jacking off in public, incest. Regardless of what you think of these laws you have to admit that any reasonable person would accept that there are SOME exceptions to a fully libertarian notion of you can do whatever you want with your body.
Whether transient second-hand smoke in an open space constitutes any danger to anyone is totally debatle.
But let's not pretend that we live in a society where a person's right to do with their body what they want trumps all other countervailing rights.
30
I find it amusing that an admitted pothead doesn't like smoking. Granted cigarettes and pot smell different and you're not putting down a pack of pot a day, but both are smoked in exactly the same way.
31
I support banning smoking on beaches. Any given day if you go to Mad Beach there are smokers on all sides that don't step away from people to smoke. Sucks on a crowded, hot day or if you are just out to get some fresh air. I think rude smokers ruin it for everyone else and get everyone up in arm against smokers that are actually considerate.
32
while i want SO badly to think of myself as a fair-minded person who supports individual rights, im with everyone else here who has pointed out that you can't go ANYWHERE in a public outside space without getting driven off by rude smokers. Hell, id settle for SOME sort of compromise...a smoking zone in parks, or even a smoke FREE zone in parks. For that matter, i agree w/ the guy that said let 50% of bars apply for a smoking license to give them somewhere to go. Hey, id even support it if some apt buildings, if the landlord actually wanted to, said, hey, this is a smoking apt building. i just want, as a non smoker, to also know that there are bars, parks , beaches etc. that i can enjoy too. which is why they should enforce the 25 feet rule, and keep it off the side walks. people may not be smoking in the street, but im sure as hell WALKING in the street just to stay away from it.
33
Ah, I love this debate. As a smoker, I do feel a slight twinge of annoyance when I'm not allowed to smoke somewhere. Ever roll up the perfect J (I'm assuming a fair few of the non-cigarette smokers indulge in weed) and realize you have nowhere to smoke it? A terrible feeling, right? Absolutely horrible. Devastating. A complete day-ruiner.
On a serious note, I think the idea of smoke-free zones in parks have merit. Nothing pisses me off more than seeing a person light up close to a little kid, and while we can all think up instances of assholes smoking on crowded streets or being douches in some general sense of the word, the only way we (smokers) can make sure we don't impinge on your rights to avoid us is if you give us a means to avoid you. Give us a place to do it, and don't say the comfort of my home because you know that's not always an option.
Oh, and please don't cough loudly, glare, or undertake some other sort of douchey passive aggressive behavior. It's annoying, makes us feel self-righteous, and won't change shit. Sometimes we get the urge to blow the smoke in your face, just to make a point (try polite engagement- tell them you have asthma or something, it's okay to lie). Let me be considerate and try to stay out of your way, and I promise I won't try to get your kids smoking Camel Crush (the gushers of cigarettes).
On a serious note, I think the idea of smoke-free zones in parks have merit. Nothing pisses me off more than seeing a person light up close to a little kid, and while we can all think up instances of assholes smoking on crowded streets or being douches in some general sense of the word, the only way we (smokers) can make sure we don't impinge on your rights to avoid us is if you give us a means to avoid you. Give us a place to do it, and don't say the comfort of my home because you know that's not always an option.
Oh, and please don't cough loudly, glare, or undertake some other sort of douchey passive aggressive behavior. It's annoying, makes us feel self-righteous, and won't change shit. Sometimes we get the urge to blow the smoke in your face, just to make a point (try polite engagement- tell them you have asthma or something, it's okay to lie). Let me be considerate and try to stay out of your way, and I promise I won't try to get your kids smoking Camel Crush (the gushers of cigarettes).
34
PS- I hope it was clear that I was telling people not to fake cough... Trust me, smokers know what genuine coughing sounds like.
35
Maybe you guys should take a look at how it's handled in other countries. For example, in Hong Kong smoking is banned in public parks, at sport grounds, on school areas, playgrounds, public beaches etc., but there are always some clearly marked sections where smoking is allowed. That way smokers can still light up and the only folks they will annoy with their smoke are fellow smokers or anyone who decides to go to the smoking area with them.
What annoys me most are smokers who inconsiderately stick the cigarette butts into the sand on the beach. They take forever to decompose and it's just plain nasty to have them everywhere in the sand.
What annoys me most are smokers who inconsiderately stick the cigarette butts into the sand on the beach. They take forever to decompose and it's just plain nasty to have them everywhere in the sand.
36
@33 The coughing is genuine, believe me. I don't really give a fuck if you think it's passive aggressive. You impose your smoke on me when I'm just walking by, minding my own business and you have the nerve to get pissed off at me because I cough?
I loathe cigarette smoke.
It fucking sucks when you're waiting at the bus stop and you're basically captive until your bus comes. Sure, you can move, but what if the person who's smoking decides to pace then you have to constantly move to get out of their smoke, or a few other people light up, you're fucked.
It also fucking sucks when you're at home w/ your windows open because it's sweltering outside and the person living next door or on the floor below you lights up and it wafts right into your apartment. It's absolutely nasty, but oh yeah, I forgot, you've got to be able to exercise your personal rights.
Let me tell you, there are days when I try to envision a world where smoking was never invented, only to realize we'd have something just as bad or worse in its place.
Vitriol aside though, I'm not sure this ban will do any good. Homeless and/or mentally ill people who don't have anywhere to go to smoke (or the wherewithal to quit) will be hassled and fined, and good luck getting them to pay the fines as it will create more work and eat more money.
Plus, it seems like every time we ban smokers from a particular place more of them show up in other public spaces.
I loathe cigarette smoke.
It fucking sucks when you're waiting at the bus stop and you're basically captive until your bus comes. Sure, you can move, but what if the person who's smoking decides to pace then you have to constantly move to get out of their smoke, or a few other people light up, you're fucked.
It also fucking sucks when you're at home w/ your windows open because it's sweltering outside and the person living next door or on the floor below you lights up and it wafts right into your apartment. It's absolutely nasty, but oh yeah, I forgot, you've got to be able to exercise your personal rights.
Let me tell you, there are days when I try to envision a world where smoking was never invented, only to realize we'd have something just as bad or worse in its place.
Vitriol aside though, I'm not sure this ban will do any good. Homeless and/or mentally ill people who don't have anywhere to go to smoke (or the wherewithal to quit) will be hassled and fined, and good luck getting them to pay the fines as it will create more work and eat more money.
Plus, it seems like every time we ban smokers from a particular place more of them show up in other public spaces.
37
@36, I believe that the coughing is often genuine, that's why I tried to clarify my statement with a second note. People who fake cough do exist and they are annoying. I thought I made it clear that I was opposed to smoking around "captive audiences." I said that I wanted a place to smoke where I don't have to be around you and you don't have to be around me because we'll both be happier. Like you mention, smokers will generally gravitate towards the places where there are no bans or bans aren't enforced. I don't like repeating myself, but the only way we (smokers) can make sure we don't impinge on your rights to avoid us is if you give us a means to avoid you. As rage (35) suggested, designated public smoking areas would be a great way to prevent the douchery you decry. Give me a smoke box with a separate ventilation system, give me a 50-foot hole and a rope ladder, give me a bubble-boy bubble, just give me something.
I also agree with 35 on the point about butts at the beach. Cigarette butts are trash, and police should give citations to smokers who throw them on the ground. Now, I'm going to do my part to support children's healthcare/education and stop youth violence by smoking a cigarette or two.
I also agree with 35 on the point about butts at the beach. Cigarette butts are trash, and police should give citations to smokers who throw them on the ground. Now, I'm going to do my part to support children's healthcare/education and stop youth violence by smoking a cigarette or two.
38
I think it's gross when someone eats a pound of lard and I think it's gross when someone smokes. But the problem isn't about smoking, it's about secondhand smoke.
The US Surgeon General Richard Carmona has concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke, and smoking is not a civil right.
Last year, I helped my building adopt a non-smoking policy, including individual units. I did this because my downstairs neighbors' smoke traveled into my unit and I had been recently diagnosed with asthma. The King County Health Department helped tremendously, and I encourage folks to contact them if they are in a similar situation.
I am tired of the dance: I sit down at Cal Anderson park, someone sits next to me and starts smoking, I tell them that smoke bothers me and I ask them to please move, they tell me that they are not going to move and they have every right to be there and smoke and if I should move if I don't like their smoke. Sometimes I am threatened, which is embarrassing and very frustrating.
I know there are some considerate smokers out there, but I only seem to remember the inconsiderate ones. I wouldn't feel such a strong desire to support a ban on smoking in parks if more smokers were considerate of the health of other people. They could do that by simply asking those people around them, "Do you mind if I smoke here?"
A ban on smoking in parks is not unprecedented. Yes the enforcement would be tricky, but it would help to make our parks livable for everyone to enjoy.
The US Surgeon General Richard Carmona has concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke, and smoking is not a civil right.
Last year, I helped my building adopt a non-smoking policy, including individual units. I did this because my downstairs neighbors' smoke traveled into my unit and I had been recently diagnosed with asthma. The King County Health Department helped tremendously, and I encourage folks to contact them if they are in a similar situation.
I am tired of the dance: I sit down at Cal Anderson park, someone sits next to me and starts smoking, I tell them that smoke bothers me and I ask them to please move, they tell me that they are not going to move and they have every right to be there and smoke and if I should move if I don't like their smoke. Sometimes I am threatened, which is embarrassing and very frustrating.
I know there are some considerate smokers out there, but I only seem to remember the inconsiderate ones. I wouldn't feel such a strong desire to support a ban on smoking in parks if more smokers were considerate of the health of other people. They could do that by simply asking those people around them, "Do you mind if I smoke here?"
A ban on smoking in parks is not unprecedented. Yes the enforcement would be tricky, but it would help to make our parks livable for everyone to enjoy.
39
smokers absolutely have a right to do with their bodies what they want. but that right ends where their body stops.
any smoker who thinks otherwise should tell me where they live and i'll come take a crap in front of their door and claim "it's my body, i can do with it what I want". it's pretty much the same thing.
any smoker who thinks otherwise should tell me where they live and i'll come take a crap in front of their door and claim "it's my body, i can do with it what I want". it's pretty much the same thing.
41
The smoke haters realize that they're just as often the cause of the conflict as the other way around, right? Here's a good example. We have an ashtray out at the corner of my building. it's in a pretty good spot. Recessed from the sidewalk by a few feet, under some trees for shade and some rain protection (keeps them away from the building by providing some of the same comforts the small awning would), and next to the stairs up to the entryway (the stairs extend across the entire front of the building, so the door is actually fairly far away). Now, being centrally located in DC, tourists seem to think that the stairs are their own personal rest stop. No biggie, like I said, the stairs are huge, plenty of room for everyone. But people will park RIGHT next to that ashtray and glare at the people who smoke. Srsly? YOU are the ones who sat next to the ashtray, what did you think was going to happen? Another example, one of my favorite bars has a huge outdoor seating area. Half of it is smoking and the other half is non-smoking (and yes, they move it around to reflect the wind direction as much as practical). When it's nice, people will say they don't care if they're seated in the smoking section of the patio, so long as they're outside, and then complain, glare, etc. about the smokers. Again, YOU sat in the smoking section (of a place that goes above and beyond required non-smoking rules).
Sure, some smokers are rude, but many make lots of concessions to non-smokers. Regardless, it seems that many, many non-smokers are unwilling to provide even the slightest courtesy to smokers. Like...don't sit next to the ashtray and complain about the smoke! Oh, and if you're anything like a number of my friends...stop complaining about smokers to their face and then bumming smokes from them when you're drunk. It's hypocritical and cigarettes are pricey!
More...
Sure, some smokers are rude, but many make lots of concessions to non-smokers. Regardless, it seems that many, many non-smokers are unwilling to provide even the slightest courtesy to smokers. Like...don't sit next to the ashtray and complain about the smoke! Oh, and if you're anything like a number of my friends...stop complaining about smokers to their face and then bumming smokes from them when you're drunk. It's hypocritical and cigarettes are pricey!
42
26 I won't run to you when I have cancer, if you don't run to me when you have Parkinson's. People who smoke are less likely to get Parkinson's. Tobacco is a herb, to some it is in fact benifical (believe it or not). Legislating it with such venom is wrong. We all make choices about our health, some are informed some are not.
P.S. I promise not to use any of the health care dollars I pay because I choose to smoke, on any cancer I get because of smoking. After all you may need the money for your Parkinson's. Just do all the healthy things, like drink lots of orange juice, combine it with a high fibre diet. Oh and by the way, incontinence is more common in people with PD, so you can get really pissed off.
P.S. I promise not to use any of the health care dollars I pay because I choose to smoke, on any cancer I get because of smoking. After all you may need the money for your Parkinson's. Just do all the healthy things, like drink lots of orange juice, combine it with a high fibre diet. Oh and by the way, incontinence is more common in people with PD, so you can get really pissed off.
43
Amen to @Tingleyfeeln. Unenforceable laws only benefit the politicians who earn meager political points. Besides, don't we have better things to spend our money on in a recession than enacting unenforceable laws? Maybe instead of hiring a health department staffer responsible for administering another stupid nanny law, we could hire an extra social worker.
Think I'll head over to REI now and have a smoke 25 feet from the front door.
Think I'll head over to REI now and have a smoke 25 feet from the front door.
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