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News & ArtsTuesday, August 11, 2009
Homo / Religion No Special Rights...
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 1:29 PM
...for bigots.
1
If these "alleged" threats were actually forwarded to the FBI. Shouldn't the FBI confirm that and list those threats under public disclosure?
2
No, that's federal.
Try to pay attention. I'm sure it's hard wearing your Party of No tin foil birther hat, but it's useful to do so.
Try to pay attention. I'm sure it's hard wearing your Party of No tin foil birther hat, but it's useful to do so.
3
@1 beat me to it. I'm wondering why the reporter on this article (well, okay, it's a short blog post-type article) didn't add a simple two line paragraph about contacting the FBI, and their response. Regardless of what the response might have been (including not returning a call, "no comment", etc.), it would have been nice to know whether this is something really substantial (a specific person making a specific threat against a specific church or other person -- not just "you suck") as opposed to smoke-blowing. But even if this is true, the question becomes what is substantial enough to justify non-disclosure? Seems like the bar would have to be high.
4
I wonder if one of those "alleged" threats, is the guy who called into a local conservative radio station. He was going on about having to sleep in his living room with his kids, because teh gays may come and throw Molotov's Cocktails through his children's windows. That's a pretty scary thing to hear while your driving in Eugene, OR. The extent humans will go to slander each other always amazes me. Poor kids are having to live with "what if" fear.
6
@2 and Re: #1
Chill, Will. You're being a douche. Quit with the ad hominem and make a fucking point if you have one.
It's a good point made at #1. If the defense for hiding the signatures is alleged threats, that sets a very alarming precedent. Whether these threats are under federal jurisdiction is not the issue.
Truth is in transparency. You can't play the "I feel threatened" card and somehow be exempt from all public disclosure laws.
The burden of proof is on these signers to show that the level of threat warrants additional protection under the law.
Chill, Will. You're being a douche. Quit with the ad hominem and make a fucking point if you have one.
It's a good point made at #1. If the defense for hiding the signatures is alleged threats, that sets a very alarming precedent. Whether these threats are under federal jurisdiction is not the issue.
Truth is in transparency. You can't play the "I feel threatened" card and somehow be exempt from all public disclosure laws.
The burden of proof is on these signers to show that the level of threat warrants additional protection under the law.
7
That "attorney," Stephen Pidgeon is a "birther" nutbag. Last March, I caught him misleading people on his academic credentials.
http://www.tips-q.com/1236290-wash-prote…
http://www.tips-q.com/1236290-wash-prote…
8
Indeed. Ya know what they're afraid of, is being exposed as bigots. They're afraid of conversations they're gonna have to have w/ folks who didn't know they were bigots, losing friends who don't wanna pal around w/ bigots, & perhaps losing business from people who don't wanna buy from bigots.
Expose 'em. If you donate politically on either side of an issue, your name should be a matter of public record. & if your donation is something you're ashamed of, maybe you should think about why that is. Really sure of your convictions? So proud to take a stand? Then suck it up & deal with the incoming responses.
Expose 'em. If you donate politically on either side of an issue, your name should be a matter of public record. & if your donation is something you're ashamed of, maybe you should think about why that is. Really sure of your convictions? So proud to take a stand? Then suck it up & deal with the incoming responses.
9
@3: Pidgeon made a statement to the effect of not believing these to be credible or substantial threats in his letter. It goes on further to say that even still, free speech is dangerous, and it should not be allowed to infringe on the free speech of others.
As you can see, it's pretty obvious that the PDC would overturn their request. As such, their recent disclosure forms are incomplete and again bring them into noncompliance with public disclosure laws.
As you can see, it's pretty obvious that the PDC would overturn their request. As such, their recent disclosure forms are incomplete and again bring them into noncompliance with public disclosure laws.
10
What better argument than the incitements and name calling "bigots" found here? If the commission needs an example of what awaits the signers of the petition look at this blog. They really shouldn't let this get more uglier than it already is.
11
So what exactly Loveschild would be a better description for the hate and ignorance being spread by those who signed this petition?
12
@10: Just for giggles: what do you call someone who regards or treats the members of a group (like African Americans or homosexuals) with hatred and intolerance?
Because that's the definition of bigot. And that is who you've decided to be. If you don't like the name, don't act the part.
Because that's the definition of bigot. And that is who you've decided to be. If you don't like the name, don't act the part.
13
It has been widely reported that hate crimes against gays and lesbians are on the rise. These crimes are not just heated rhetorical exchanges, but more often result in violence and death.
Crazy bullshit is not bound by political ideology, religious identity, or sexual orientation. Just because R71 can point to one crazy example it does not mean we should abandon full disclosure laws. Supporters of any political agenda share an equal level of exposure.
Crazy bullshit is not bound by political ideology, religious identity, or sexual orientation. Just because R71 can point to one crazy example it does not mean we should abandon full disclosure laws. Supporters of any political agenda share an equal level of exposure.
14
@10: Recall, Loveschild, that you advocated violence against the couple in Seaside, Oregon, saying they were probably "prostitutes" or "drug traffickers" and saying outright that it wasn't a big deal.
15
#9 - sure the PDC will say no to their request - and in one day - they will re file, as an emergency, in Federal Court. Then the real action begins.
I think we need to get a bit more on target that this time the legal game will be well worked by these folks. So far our side has not raised any legal strategies. Not ballot title, not the lies on their form ... maybe too passive?
Of course, legal wins count well for them if we go to the ballot ... good media, their focus and on their message. Mostly moot if we do not have an election..
Never a dull day.
I think we need to get a bit more on target that this time the legal game will be well worked by these folks. So far our side has not raised any legal strategies. Not ballot title, not the lies on their form ... maybe too passive?
Of course, legal wins count well for them if we go to the ballot ... good media, their focus and on their message. Mostly moot if we do not have an election..
Never a dull day.
16
On the flip side, let's say you're a kinky person who gives money to certain causes with a kinky agenda. You aren't out to anyone for fear of losing your job, your house, whatever. Should THOSE people be forced to be public, too? Not everyone chooses to wear their politics on their sleeve for various reasons, and while I agree that these people ARE bigots, I don't think that they need to be pushed out into the light. It's not as though the pressure put on them by people who don't agree with them is going to make them NOT a bigot anymore...
17
PS - I didn't mean "lose your house". I meant lose your kids. I don't know why I typed house. I don't think the bank cares if you like leather. :)
20
I have yet to meet or hear about a petitioner of R 71 that has engaged in acts of violence, threats and name calling against homosexuals, something I can't say about the other side as evidence by Savage's post.
Last I checked we were still a republic with solid democratic foundations. You can disagree all you want and the citizenry can make use of the voting process to approve or reject laws that they feel strongly for or against. That doesn't make one a "bigot", that makes one an involved citizen and involved citizens are what keeps despotism from taking over. I hope those who supervise the DPC come to the hearing with an open heart without biases and take into account who has been subject to threats by the likes of "whosigned" and the rest of those who are seeking personal information to harm their fellow citizens.
Last I checked we were still a republic with solid democratic foundations. You can disagree all you want and the citizenry can make use of the voting process to approve or reject laws that they feel strongly for or against. That doesn't make one a "bigot", that makes one an involved citizen and involved citizens are what keeps despotism from taking over. I hope those who supervise the DPC come to the hearing with an open heart without biases and take into account who has been subject to threats by the likes of "whosigned" and the rest of those who are seeking personal information to harm their fellow citizens.
21
So you are just going to continue on the hypocritical bigoted route then Loveschild? Good to know.
22
I'm not convinced of the value of dialoguing with those who signed Ref. 71., especially since the petition had open lies printed on it. The sponsors were aware that they required inducing fear into those who would sign it. Fearful people tend to bite when cornered. It might be wiser to prepare as if Ref. 71 will make it to the ballot, and hope that it doesn't, then spend time being concerned about individual bigots. The hypocrisy of this situation amazes me, because petition are public records by law, and therefore, are not deserving of secrete ballot voter coverage. Those who signed it knew their names were public record, to ask that that their names be hidden is hypocritical. That's my $0.02 from Oregon, feel free to discard it.
25
@22,
Considering there were lies on it, people who were deceived may learn that they were signing to support something they don't support.
A passive equal rights supporter will see how the bigots behind this are lying to the people to take away rights. A lot of Americans (myself included) won't really work for a cause until it touches their lives. If Ref. 71 does make the ballot, they may be out making sure like-minded folks aren't confused (or lied to) again and vote to support equal rights. It could be a balance to the lies printed on petitions. One would hope, at least.
Considering there were lies on it, people who were deceived may learn that they were signing to support something they don't support.
A passive equal rights supporter will see how the bigots behind this are lying to the people to take away rights. A lot of Americans (myself included) won't really work for a cause until it touches their lives. If Ref. 71 does make the ballot, they may be out making sure like-minded folks aren't confused (or lied to) again and vote to support equal rights. It could be a balance to the lies printed on petitions. One would hope, at least.
26
Nothing says wisdom like calling other people bigots for having deep philosophical and moral disagreements with you. Disagreeing is legitimate and something that we should encourage for a healthy and vibrant democracy but insulting and persecuting people as I'm hoping some honest members overseeing the PDC will see is as un american as you can get.
You can't say you're for freedom and the principles of democracy and then turn around insult and seek to punish others for exercising said freedoms.
23 Were they not investigated Baconcat? Yes they have. Were they all determined to be "bashings"? No they haven't, but those who have committed acts of violence against others regardless of the sexual preferences of the victim should be prosecuted.
Are you trying to imply as you did in 14 that R 71 signers had something to do with those incidents?
Do you want the signers of R71 to be harmed by the crazies on your side?
I'm afraid you would cause by casting people who want nothing more than to be able to exercise their democratic right as "bigots" (a tactic that has so far served you well) and by wanting to publish their names and location that's precisely what you want to happen to them.
You can't say you're for freedom and the principles of democracy and then turn around insult and seek to punish others for exercising said freedoms.
23 Were they not investigated Baconcat? Yes they have. Were they all determined to be "bashings"? No they haven't, but those who have committed acts of violence against others regardless of the sexual preferences of the victim should be prosecuted.
Are you trying to imply as you did in 14 that R 71 signers had something to do with those incidents?
Do you want the signers of R71 to be harmed by the crazies on your side?
I'm afraid you would cause by casting people who want nothing more than to be able to exercise their democratic right as "bigots" (a tactic that has so far served you well) and by wanting to publish their names and location that's precisely what you want to happen to them.
27
20:
Goodness, LC. Do you really expect the rest of us to believe that you are unaware of the lies used to forward R 71. Sorry, that is BS. You've been around, you know that lies were printed on the petition to induce fearful people to sign it. You know that there is video evidence of signature gathers lying to get signatures. You know there is photo evidence of the lying as well. And, don't give me that you didn't know that bearing false witness on one's neighbors, and slandering one's neighbor isn't a form of verbal violence. R 71, itself is a form of a threat and violence against some Washington families, because it seeks to rob them of civil rights. LC, you are writing like a total hypocrite here.
Darn it all, why do you only cry violence, threats, and persecution for those who support your views and insist on those who don't share your views be considerate of you? Do you remember your comments in regard to the two young men in Seaside, do you remember your comments about the Ecuadorian man who was beaten to death for walking hand in hand from mass in Brooklyn (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive… Why, do your comments indicate that your only compassionate to those who agree with you? Why, when you proclaim to have such love in your heart, do wish to harm some of Washington's children, by preventing their parents equal rights? Do not all children deserve to have equal protection under the laws of the state of Washington, irregardless of the fact that their parents have a Domestic Partnership or a Marriage certificate?
Goodness, LC. Do you really expect the rest of us to believe that you are unaware of the lies used to forward R 71. Sorry, that is BS. You've been around, you know that lies were printed on the petition to induce fearful people to sign it. You know that there is video evidence of signature gathers lying to get signatures. You know there is photo evidence of the lying as well. And, don't give me that you didn't know that bearing false witness on one's neighbors, and slandering one's neighbor isn't a form of verbal violence. R 71, itself is a form of a threat and violence against some Washington families, because it seeks to rob them of civil rights. LC, you are writing like a total hypocrite here.
Darn it all, why do you only cry violence, threats, and persecution for those who support your views and insist on those who don't share your views be considerate of you? Do you remember your comments in regard to the two young men in Seaside, do you remember your comments about the Ecuadorian man who was beaten to death for walking hand in hand from mass in Brooklyn (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive… Why, do your comments indicate that your only compassionate to those who agree with you? Why, when you proclaim to have such love in your heart, do wish to harm some of Washington's children, by preventing their parents equal rights? Do not all children deserve to have equal protection under the laws of the state of Washington, irregardless of the fact that their parents have a Domestic Partnership or a Marriage certificate?
28
Loveschild,
What is your opinion of a signature attained through the lies printed at the top of the petition? By using scare tactics and misinformation of what is actually part of the law to get someone to sign, shouldn't these signatures be invalidated?
I don't think it is "freedom and the principles of democracy" to lie to the public to support your own ends.
What is your opinion of a signature attained through the lies printed at the top of the petition? By using scare tactics and misinformation of what is actually part of the law to get someone to sign, shouldn't these signatures be invalidated?
I don't think it is "freedom and the principles of democracy" to lie to the public to support your own ends.
29
@26: Where did I imply they were related to R71? The case in Seaside is just a sign that you are unchristian in your lies and distortions, wherein you previously promoted a violent attack on others, condoning the attacks on the two by saying they must have been involved in the sex trade or drug trafficking and then turned around and said, "oh, but we can't reveal the names of anyone since they'll be attacked!!"
The only thing I wish on anyone now is that your children turn away from your evil and godless ways and hopefully escape your hellbound ill-will if they choose to be religious in their adult years. And if they choose atheism, agnosticism, islam or judaism, more power to them. It's not like you're setting a good example.
The only thing I wish on anyone now is that your children turn away from your evil and godless ways and hopefully escape your hellbound ill-will if they choose to be religious in their adult years. And if they choose atheism, agnosticism, islam or judaism, more power to them. It's not like you're setting a good example.
30
I wonder who's at the greater risk of violence: gays (from god fearing, R71 supporting conservatives) or god fearing, R71 supporting conservatives (from gays)? I guess comparing the number gays who get attacked for being gay to the number of Christians who get attacked for being Christian ought to be a pretty good indication.
Seriously, if you feel strong enough about an issue to sign a petition and/or donate money, why should you be afraid to stand up publicly proclaim your support? Gays and their straight friends have been doing that for a long time now.
Seriously, if you feel strong enough about an issue to sign a petition and/or donate money, why should you be afraid to stand up publicly proclaim your support? Gays and their straight friends have been doing that for a long time now.
31
27 All I was commenting on the Seaside case was that all the details were not yet clear enough to call it a hate crime, something which as you surely will recall I'm all for. In the Ecuadorian brothers case all I commented was that if they had exercised better judgement and know the area they where in perhaps such a tragedy could have been avoided. In no way did I excuse those who killed one of the brothers, I do not defend killers. I'm with you on this, why is it that you are not in favor of protecting people like me from harm? Why is it that you have never condemned the acts of violence that have taken place in other states against pro traditional family people? Why is it that your bias of anything homosexual keep you from fairness for my side? You know once they know the names and all other information provided to them about the signers they will use it to keep us shut, you know it Kim. It's not a conspiracy its the truth look at the websites they've gotten up already in anticipation of the releases, they can't seem to wait till they can start using them. Why do you think they want that information Kim? You're not naive you know what they'll do with it.
32
28 Has it been corroborated by an independent party? Or are we suppose to trust what people who want to sabotage the process and make it seem as illegitimate say and tape? Are we supposed to take people like Savage who in one post commented his regret at not having signed (fraudulently )the petition so that it would be tossed out and further diminished the numbers as a credible source? You know he's not alone in that. The dishonesty seems to be more prevalent in your side than in mine.
33
@31: Because, Loveschild, you've never produced any substantial violent acts that have involved death or grave harm to any person. You seem to be waiting for some major act against the religious, as though oppression balances itself out in the end. It doesn't. Your side is clear on its intent, and whenever they don't get their way, violence ensues. This is why I'm terribly afraid of what would happen if R-71 were to make the ballot, since it's likely to be approved based on statewide support for DPs.
Also, in the case of Lamb or a bunch of teenage girls taking a swing at some guys, you had clear provocation in that they were presenting themselves as higher and holier, breaking the commandment in Matthew to do their praying and witnessing in a closet so as not to be a hypocrite. It's only vaguely similar to your exhortations that folks like the Ecuadorians "know what they're getting into", which is a terrible way to cover for a crime. I have never once condoned anything to the level you are, as you do with the brothers. If it were a christian couple casually walking through the Castro that was viciously murdered without telegraphing or saying anything, then maybe.
Nothing you say has EVER come close to the violent rape in the East Bay of California, nor the attack on the couple in Seaside, or the violent murder of the ecuadorian brother, or Matthew Shepard, or Angie Zapata or Brandon Teena or the hundreds beaten every year. And you know it.
Also, in the case of Lamb or a bunch of teenage girls taking a swing at some guys, you had clear provocation in that they were presenting themselves as higher and holier, breaking the commandment in Matthew to do their praying and witnessing in a closet so as not to be a hypocrite. It's only vaguely similar to your exhortations that folks like the Ecuadorians "know what they're getting into", which is a terrible way to cover for a crime. I have never once condoned anything to the level you are, as you do with the brothers. If it were a christian couple casually walking through the Castro that was viciously murdered without telegraphing or saying anything, then maybe.
Nothing you say has EVER come close to the violent rape in the East Bay of California, nor the attack on the couple in Seaside, or the violent murder of the ecuadorian brother, or Matthew Shepard, or Angie Zapata or Brandon Teena or the hundreds beaten every year. And you know it.
34
What crimes have there been against people in favor of traditional marriage?
Oh wait. I forgot. Loveschild is black so it is in her nature to be ignorant, craven, a liar, and criminal.
Oh wait. I forgot. Loveschild is black so it is in her nature to be ignorant, craven, a liar, and criminal.
35
LC,
I'm a pacifist and I don't condone violence at all.
Other than the young woman who got bopped on the head with her Bible, and the church that got glitterd and the sprinkelers went off, or people protesting outside of the Mormon temple, the general public doesn't hear about acts of violence on traditional family supporters. I tried Googling it to get a perspective, I found a couple of Christian websites repeating the same story over and over, but no nonbiased news reports or arrest records. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for gay bashing. That makes the mainstream news down here, I don't even need to Google it.
This isn't to say that there are not "dingleberries" on both sides of this issue, but that your fear comes accross extremly excessive. Again, I don't condone violence, threats, or harrasment, but the odds are that you have nothing to fear, and hollering potential harrasment is slandering.
Sorry, to make this short, but I have got to go. Thus, no time to proofread either.
But, if you look above, I don't see the purpose of putting the names out there.
I'm a pacifist and I don't condone violence at all.
Other than the young woman who got bopped on the head with her Bible, and the church that got glitterd and the sprinkelers went off, or people protesting outside of the Mormon temple, the general public doesn't hear about acts of violence on traditional family supporters. I tried Googling it to get a perspective, I found a couple of Christian websites repeating the same story over and over, but no nonbiased news reports or arrest records. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for gay bashing. That makes the mainstream news down here, I don't even need to Google it.
This isn't to say that there are not "dingleberries" on both sides of this issue, but that your fear comes accross extremly excessive. Again, I don't condone violence, threats, or harrasment, but the odds are that you have nothing to fear, and hollering potential harrasment is slandering.
Sorry, to make this short, but I have got to go. Thus, no time to proofread either.
But, if you look above, I don't see the purpose of putting the names out there.
36
LC, why is it that you only comment on threads that deal with gay rights? Why the fascination? What happened?
37
So long as those who gave to this Referendum have to wear a scarlet letter R for Radical Extremist Talibangelist, I don't think anything else needs to happen.
Unless they want to wear the optional dunce cap ...
Unless they want to wear the optional dunce cap ...
38
@35: Those are equal to:
"Prosecutors state that Andrade later discovered that Zapata was transgender and subsequently began beating her—first with his fists and then with a fire extinguisher—until she was dead."
"he ordeal began around 9:30 p.m. in the 1500 block of Visalia Avenue in Richmond's Belding-Wood neighborhood, said Gagan. The woman was sexually assaulted in that location after she got out of her car, police said. Then she was forced back into her vehicle after the suspects noticed someone approaching. She was driven seven blocks away to the 1300 block of Burbeck Avenue, where she was repeatedly sexually assaulted near an apartment complex"
"Shortly after midnight on October 7, 1998, 21-year-old Shepard met McKinney and Henderson in a bar. McKinney and Henderson offered Shepard a ride in their car.[4] Subsequently, Shepard was robbed, pistol whipped, tortured, tied to a fence in a remote, rural area, and left to die. McKinney and Henderson also found out his address and intended to rob his home. Still tied to the fence, Shepard was discovered eighteen hours later by Aaron Kreifels, who at first thought that Shepard was a scarecrow. At the time of discovery, Shepard was still alive, but in a coma."
"An Ecuadorian immigrant passed away on Tuesday in a New York Hospital after being assaulted by a group of teenagers who yelled racial slurs and insults while beating him.
Police are still looking for the teenagers who have the New York Ecuadorian community in mourning. This is the second racial crime in a month. Marcelo Lucero, also Ecuadorian, also passed away earlier this month under similar circumstances.
Jose Sucuzhanay, 31, was severely hurt before undergoing brain surgery at Elmhurst Hospital Center.
Jose had been beaten with a baseball bat while walking with his brother through Brooklyn early Sunday morning. The two brothers were walking holding hands, which police believe caused the teenagers to confuse the brothers for a gay couple. "
And, of course, regarding the last, Loveschild said "In the Ecuadorian brothers case all I commented was that if they had exercised better judgement and know the area they where in perhaps such a tragedy could have been avoided.", which of course is the same as can be said for MLK, JFK, RFK and Malcolm X.
More...
"Prosecutors state that Andrade later discovered that Zapata was transgender and subsequently began beating her—first with his fists and then with a fire extinguisher—until she was dead."
"he ordeal began around 9:30 p.m. in the 1500 block of Visalia Avenue in Richmond's Belding-Wood neighborhood, said Gagan. The woman was sexually assaulted in that location after she got out of her car, police said. Then she was forced back into her vehicle after the suspects noticed someone approaching. She was driven seven blocks away to the 1300 block of Burbeck Avenue, where she was repeatedly sexually assaulted near an apartment complex"
"Shortly after midnight on October 7, 1998, 21-year-old Shepard met McKinney and Henderson in a bar. McKinney and Henderson offered Shepard a ride in their car.[4] Subsequently, Shepard was robbed, pistol whipped, tortured, tied to a fence in a remote, rural area, and left to die. McKinney and Henderson also found out his address and intended to rob his home. Still tied to the fence, Shepard was discovered eighteen hours later by Aaron Kreifels, who at first thought that Shepard was a scarecrow. At the time of discovery, Shepard was still alive, but in a coma."
"An Ecuadorian immigrant passed away on Tuesday in a New York Hospital after being assaulted by a group of teenagers who yelled racial slurs and insults while beating him.
Police are still looking for the teenagers who have the New York Ecuadorian community in mourning. This is the second racial crime in a month. Marcelo Lucero, also Ecuadorian, also passed away earlier this month under similar circumstances.
Jose Sucuzhanay, 31, was severely hurt before undergoing brain surgery at Elmhurst Hospital Center.
Jose had been beaten with a baseball bat while walking with his brother through Brooklyn early Sunday morning. The two brothers were walking holding hands, which police believe caused the teenagers to confuse the brothers for a gay couple. "
And, of course, regarding the last, Loveschild said "In the Ecuadorian brothers case all I commented was that if they had exercised better judgement and know the area they where in perhaps such a tragedy could have been avoided.", which of course is the same as can be said for MLK, JFK, RFK and Malcolm X.
39
@26: when you are supporting denying civil rights to others, yes you deserve the name bigot. If one said that black people didn't deserve equal marriage rights would you just agree to disagree? If you were told that you couldn't practice your religion? You are supporting that kind of evil.
So yes, you are a bigot.
So yes, you are a bigot.
40
Really, the only proper response to Loveschild at this point is "Shut the fuck up you stupid bleeding cunt."
And for different reasons, the same to Will in Seattle.
And for different reasons, the same to Will in Seattle.
41
Hey Baconcat @ 38,
I'm aware. Thank you for posting, we all need to be reminded what persecution really looks like. You emphasised my point better than my rushed response did.
I'm aware. Thank you for posting, we all need to be reminded what persecution really looks like. You emphasised my point better than my rushed response did.
42
fwiw, loveschild is a Plessy v. Ferguson bigot, one of the separate but equal know nothings that ignore the intent and rule of Brown v. Board of Education and Loving v. Virginia.
she's a three-fer:
dumb troll, old school religious bigot, & tired excuse for a human
she's a three-fer:
dumb troll, old school religious bigot, & tired excuse for a human
43
ohh wait, she's not for "separate but equal" anything, hell, even that is far too progressive for her brand of hatred/stupidity/bigotry.
44
Loveschild, no matter how much you wish you could vote the rights away from others, in this country, under the 14th Amendment of The Constitution, a majority cannot vote to make a minority lesser citizens. If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex, but you don't get to force others to live by your religious beliefs. Also, petitions are part of the public record. Maybe it's time for you to take some basic 4th grade history, and civics classes? (Did you graduate high school? Seriously, you are very under educated.)
45
Oh, and lets face it. The real reason they don't want the names released is they don't want any in depth analysis of the signatures. The anti gay folks are hoping to slip past the hurried signature verification process, but if people start looking deeper than a handful of government folks working in an office trying to verifiy hundreds of thousands of signatures, many of which are bogus, they know their lies and deceptions will come out. That is what has Loveschild quaking in her boots.
46
35 I don't see where you stated that view, above where?
In any case, I'm glad to know that at least for now you don't favor those kind of tactics.
In any case, I'm glad to know that at least for now you don't favor those kind of tactics.
47
Rob, go grab your special "friend" at 34 and find a nice country with a vibrant white supremacist scene and with gay marriage on the books.
49
47, You're the racist one, not me. On top of your racism is your homophobia. You are one of the most bigoted persons I've ever seen. Your ignorance and lack of education just adds to the deliciousness of your unintentionally funny posts.
50
LC,
Don't think that I haven't noticed that you haven't addressed the confirmed lies that "traditional family supporters" used. Why did those "good" Christians have to use lies, actually print them on the petition in large bold letters, to gain signatures. Tell us, is that part of the "freedom and the principles of democracy" your espousing in your post at 26? Why, do they have to lie, Loveschild? Why? I've got a theory. That it is because their afraid:
The first reason they are afraid, is because slandering LGBTQ community is a cash cow for them. They are more interested in lining their pockets than acting Christ like. You see there is no money in loving one's neighbor as themselves. Just see the parable of the Good Samaritan, it cost him emotionally and financially to care for his neighbor.
The second reason, they knew that they couldn't obtain enough signatures without lying. They needed fear to motivate people to sign.
Third, they are like you. Unable, to put their lives, marriages, and families into the hands of God. You all go on about how mighty God is, but you keep him small. That is why you are on here hollering about potential "persecution". Unfortunately, no amount of bigotry and denying civil rights to the LGBTQ community is going to ensure that your marriage is a long and successful one. Denying Washington's LGBTQ families more rights and responsibilities through domestic partnership, will not stop divorce, it will not stop families from being ripped apart. Just a few months, you were on SLOG telling us that you could agree to everything but the word marriage. What did your pro-traditional family supports do, they lied and made it about gay marriage. Nope, the people who suffer here won't be you and your pro-traditional family crowd. It will be the innocent children, who need to be put on the parent's health insurance right this minute, but can't because R 71 prevents it. No, it will be the innocent children who find themselves without a home, because one of their parents has died and they can't get survivor benefits. You pro-traditional people can pat yourselves on the back, you are a bunch of religious bullies who will happily ignore Christ's instructions not to bear false witness, not to slander, and to not oppress, all in His name and for your freedom and the principles of democracy.
Oh, and in your 140 something days of being a Christian, you should know by now that your to expect to be persecuted. Not only expect it, but accept it with pure joy. Perhaps, their is no joy for the pro-traditional family crowd in your potential "persecution" over this issue, because your hands aren't clean?
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Don't think that I haven't noticed that you haven't addressed the confirmed lies that "traditional family supporters" used. Why did those "good" Christians have to use lies, actually print them on the petition in large bold letters, to gain signatures. Tell us, is that part of the "freedom and the principles of democracy" your espousing in your post at 26? Why, do they have to lie, Loveschild? Why? I've got a theory. That it is because their afraid:
The first reason they are afraid, is because slandering LGBTQ community is a cash cow for them. They are more interested in lining their pockets than acting Christ like. You see there is no money in loving one's neighbor as themselves. Just see the parable of the Good Samaritan, it cost him emotionally and financially to care for his neighbor.
The second reason, they knew that they couldn't obtain enough signatures without lying. They needed fear to motivate people to sign.
Third, they are like you. Unable, to put their lives, marriages, and families into the hands of God. You all go on about how mighty God is, but you keep him small. That is why you are on here hollering about potential "persecution". Unfortunately, no amount of bigotry and denying civil rights to the LGBTQ community is going to ensure that your marriage is a long and successful one. Denying Washington's LGBTQ families more rights and responsibilities through domestic partnership, will not stop divorce, it will not stop families from being ripped apart. Just a few months, you were on SLOG telling us that you could agree to everything but the word marriage. What did your pro-traditional family supports do, they lied and made it about gay marriage. Nope, the people who suffer here won't be you and your pro-traditional family crowd. It will be the innocent children, who need to be put on the parent's health insurance right this minute, but can't because R 71 prevents it. No, it will be the innocent children who find themselves without a home, because one of their parents has died and they can't get survivor benefits. You pro-traditional people can pat yourselves on the back, you are a bunch of religious bullies who will happily ignore Christ's instructions not to bear false witness, not to slander, and to not oppress, all in His name and for your freedom and the principles of democracy.
Oh, and in your 140 something days of being a Christian, you should know by now that your to expect to be persecuted. Not only expect it, but accept it with pure joy. Perhaps, their is no joy for the pro-traditional family crowd in your potential "persecution" over this issue, because your hands aren't clean?
51
Kim, I've grown to love your calm, measured responses, but trying to educate a pathetic crank like Loveschild is a waste of time. She's clearly damaged beyond all repair, at least until one of her children comes out as gay and she has real reason to face reality. At least, I hope that's what happens.
What she gets here is just more grist for her mill of martyrdom.
What she gets here is just more grist for her mill of martyrdom.
52
Kitty,
I am with you on Kim, that woman is worthy of most admiration,( btw, you mentioned your grandpa, Kim -i wish him speedy recovery, Kim! those guys are build to last, he will be fine and like new, soon :)
But God forbid one of LC kids is gay , esp.if he gets out while young... Would be a great dose of reality for LC,sure, but thinking of a poor kid i dont want that, for the woman will, at best, throw him out forever and at worst,kill him. We recently cornered her with this question, that is what she would do, kid you not.
I know,it's sick, but..
I am with you on Kim, that woman is worthy of most admiration,( btw, you mentioned your grandpa, Kim -i wish him speedy recovery, Kim! those guys are build to last, he will be fine and like new, soon :)
But God forbid one of LC kids is gay , esp.if he gets out while young... Would be a great dose of reality for LC,sure, but thinking of a poor kid i dont want that, for the woman will, at best, throw him out forever and at worst,kill him. We recently cornered her with this question, that is what she would do, kid you not.
I know,it's sick, but..
54
48 50 All I see there is name calling, lies, and the total opposite of your last sentence in 35.
Dear Kim, you seem to always forget (for your own convenience) the real acts of violence that gays have perpetrated in other places. Need I remind you again the desecration of churches in CA Kim? Or is that still cool with you? This is not about me alone, this is about my family, forgive me if I don't want to put them in harms way and remain quiet till something happens to them. Ain't gonna happen, I'm making sure my voice is heard through people who are on the grounds litigating and fighting the good fight so that such a thing doesn't happen to people (and to their families) whose only crime has been to exercise their citizen rights. You're the one slandering, dismissing my legitimate concerns as bigotry and actively trying to deny people like me the freedoms that our democracy has provided to us so that we're able to decide what takes place in our government and our communities. You see no problem with Savage's own admission of regret at not having (so he says) falsified a couple of signatures. You instead go ahead and believe what he says about the signature's gathering. You honestly believe based on what hes admitted that more homosexuals like him have not tried to and are currently trying to sabotage this process? Of course you don't but to you and those who share your ideological point of view the ends always justify the means, no matter how dishonest and vicious they're. So long as homosexuals get what they want they can trample all over others rights. You're basically saying, if you don't want to get butchered then get out of the way. How christian of you Kim.
Even if I'd only accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior yesterday, based on what you're defending here I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding of the teachings of Christ (the Bible) than you. You should know by now that once we're born again in Christ there are no such things as seniority (such as the one you're boasting about), for the only thing that matters is that we follow in the path, teachings and guidance found in the Bible (yes the Bible and not any other scripture) that our heavenly Father has so mercifully provided us with.
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Dear Kim, you seem to always forget (for your own convenience) the real acts of violence that gays have perpetrated in other places. Need I remind you again the desecration of churches in CA Kim? Or is that still cool with you? This is not about me alone, this is about my family, forgive me if I don't want to put them in harms way and remain quiet till something happens to them. Ain't gonna happen, I'm making sure my voice is heard through people who are on the grounds litigating and fighting the good fight so that such a thing doesn't happen to people (and to their families) whose only crime has been to exercise their citizen rights. You're the one slandering, dismissing my legitimate concerns as bigotry and actively trying to deny people like me the freedoms that our democracy has provided to us so that we're able to decide what takes place in our government and our communities. You see no problem with Savage's own admission of regret at not having (so he says) falsified a couple of signatures. You instead go ahead and believe what he says about the signature's gathering. You honestly believe based on what hes admitted that more homosexuals like him have not tried to and are currently trying to sabotage this process? Of course you don't but to you and those who share your ideological point of view the ends always justify the means, no matter how dishonest and vicious they're. So long as homosexuals get what they want they can trample all over others rights. You're basically saying, if you don't want to get butchered then get out of the way. How christian of you Kim.
Even if I'd only accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior yesterday, based on what you're defending here I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding of the teachings of Christ (the Bible) than you. You should know by now that once we're born again in Christ there are no such things as seniority (such as the one you're boasting about), for the only thing that matters is that we follow in the path, teachings and guidance found in the Bible (yes the Bible and not any other scripture) that our heavenly Father has so mercifully provided us with.
56
Note: You can hold a racial bias without being a racist. You can have bias towards or against a geneder or orientation without being a sexist or homophobic bigot. The difference is a bit subtle. For example, a racist joins Klans and actively spews his hatred, while someone with racial bias never states his/her preference and may even speak out against racism, but personally slides for or against people based on racial considerations, even stereotypes, for various reasons.
Both routes in either case are to some extent problematic.
Both routes in either case are to some extent problematic.
57
LOL, LC!
Your hilarious. Any person here with decent reading comprehension skills, can read that I'm consistent in all my posts on this thread.
You are defaulting to your default position. Whenever you can't explain your position, it's my fault. Whenever you act unChristian, I'm the one who isn't being the good Christian. Oh yes, I noticed you still haven't answered.
Your priceless, simply hilarious, LC. You're also a broken record, and predictable. Man, I do love you. Thanks for the laugh.
I'm out of here for now.
Your hilarious. Any person here with decent reading comprehension skills, can read that I'm consistent in all my posts on this thread.
You are defaulting to your default position. Whenever you can't explain your position, it's my fault. Whenever you act unChristian, I'm the one who isn't being the good Christian. Oh yes, I noticed you still haven't answered.
Your priceless, simply hilarious, LC. You're also a broken record, and predictable. Man, I do love you. Thanks for the laugh.
I'm out of here for now.
58
Lovechild: "Last I checked we were still a republic with solid democratic foundations."
See my blog entry in this regard.
59
Gomez: "a racist joins Klans and actively spews his hatred, while someone with racial bias never states his/her preference and may even speak out against racism, but personally slides for or against people based on racial considerations, even stereotypes, for various reasons."
Soooo...if I hate the guts of Lower Slobovians, and would love to see their bodies strung up on lampposts along the boulevard, but keep my mouth shut about it and never act upon it, I'm not a bigot?
Wrong. Bigotry is bigotry, spoken or unspoken, acted-upon or not acted-upon.
60
@59 You're right of course. I've been losing my temper lately. I'm worried not only about my long overdue civil rights being challenged by these good "Christians", but the way our government is so in thrall to the money of the lobbyists that the health care reform we were promised during the campaign is now in question. My head is spinning, but blogging away with people like Loveschild as if they have a valid point to make seems to me to be a waste of outrage. Screw the bitch. She's getting her thrills from all the attention.
61
59. By that blanket definition, we're surrounded by racists, bigots and sexist pigs, present company included.
I was taking it easy. It'd be easy to just call everyone with a racial bias racists, but that may not be accurate.
I was taking it easy. It'd be easy to just call everyone with a racial bias racists, but that may not be accurate.
62
61 and 59 are both right. People with racial bias and people who are racists are not identical, but both are bigots.
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