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News & ArtsFriday, August 14, 2009
Politics One Canadian Wants to Jump Into Our Health Care Debate
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM
Stephen Hawking isn't the only person annoyed by the distortions being peddled by the right. A "Savage Love" reader in Canada writes...
Can you plese get your fellow Americans to stop making INSANE claims about our Healthcare System in Canada? I live in Toronto and work in a restaurant and last week I swear a group of Americans wanted to essentially know how any of us could be alive! I have an HIV specialist, essentially free meds, a neurologist, rhumatologist and a psychiatrist for when I get sad about not being born a fabulous black woman (see Dame Shirley Bassey). If there's no way for you people to have an open and honest discussion about the state of US healthcare then someone wake me up when the whole shitshow is over and nothing has sadly changed. I mean, not only are people down there lining-up at folksy "Town Hall" meetings to lie about us, but they are now showing-up armed! Dan, armed!Here's an article your fellow Americans might want to read: U.S. Health Care Lies About Canada
XO
Peter
I've posted your link, Peter, but honestly I'm losing... what was that again? Oh, right: hope. The Democrats have allowed the right-wing ravers to frame the debate, and despite all the evidence that our health care system is hopelessly broken—two-thirds of all bankruptcies are due to medical expenses, your insurance can be cancelled at any time (like when you get sick and need it), millions of people who have inadequate coverage and don't know it, the farce that of "pre-existing conditions," the fact that health care reform isn't just about insuring the uninsured but making sure that people who think they have insurance actually have insurance—the Democrats can't make a case for reform. They're hopeless and we're fucked.
It's pathetic that the best case for health care reform—the one place where you can read compelling arguments about the inadequacies of our current system—is on Andrew Sullivan's blog. And Andrew opposes "socialized medicine"!
1
But it's Canada, Dan, Canada.
If you want to be a maple-swilling socialist, feel free. Us Americans on the other hand will face Swine Flu head-on and defeat it with our sheer awesomeness!
If you want to be a maple-swilling socialist, feel free. Us Americans on the other hand will face Swine Flu head-on and defeat it with our sheer awesomeness!
2
You need a new lexicon of spineless to describe Democrats, a frightened pseudo political party that can't even match what a bunch of Saskatchewan wheat farmers achieved in the 1950s.
3
Damn right, Baconcat. And we'll do it armed too!
Honestly, this whole thing has turned into such a cluster-fuck that I've about given up hope too.
Honestly, this whole thing has turned into such a cluster-fuck that I've about given up hope too.
6
Elections, apparently, don't have consequences. America is ruled by the mob that can scream the loudest.
7
I actually had a colleague make outrageous claims (she's a conservative from a rural area of the county) about Canada's health care system, which surprised the heck out of me, since I have personal experience with Canada's health care system and tons of friends who still do.
The sad thing is that they're intentionally spreading these lies, and have lied to themselves that they exist in the false way they describe, on the neocon side.
The sad thing is that they're intentionally spreading these lies, and have lied to themselves that they exist in the false way they describe, on the neocon side.
8
Awesome article about the use of doublethink by town hall screamers:
Satan's Strategy
I really have less than no sympathy for old people who have whipped themselves into a fury by means of self-delusion. Compassion, perhaps: these people are broken and bitter, leading sad, joyless lives, ignorant even of themselves.
Satan's Strategy
We're not talking about a clever or a plausible deception. We're talking about swallowing impossibilities and categorically disproved falsehoods. That sort of deception cannot be believed without an active, vigorous component of self-deception. And self-deception, by definition, can never be 100-percent effective, convincing or sincere.
I really have less than no sympathy for old people who have whipped themselves into a fury by means of self-delusion. Compassion, perhaps: these people are broken and bitter, leading sad, joyless lives, ignorant even of themselves.
9
The Dems have constantly allowed the right wing to frame the debate. Like 'partial birth abortion' or 'climate change.' The group that controls the language controls the debate, and the Dems keep ceding that control with nary a whimper. It's frustrating!
10
I've already given up on anything close to healthcare reform. It AIN'T happening. And the only way I was voting for Obama again was if we had universal single payer healthcare like the rest of the civilized world does.
I suggest we seriously start to make the Green Pary politically viable in this country and we need to start NOW!!
I suggest we seriously start to make the Green Pary politically viable in this country and we need to start NOW!!
11
@9,
"Climate change" is an accurate term. How is it allowing the right to frame the debate?
I bet Stephen Hawking would've been left to die had he been subjected to U.S. health care. He certainly would've been bankrupted before he qualified for disability benefits.
"Climate change" is an accurate term. How is it allowing the right to frame the debate?
I bet Stephen Hawking would've been left to die had he been subjected to U.S. health care. He certainly would've been bankrupted before he qualified for disability benefits.
12
@10 - If we can't whip the Dems into shape, how do think the Green Party is going to be any better? Sure, they're unbeholden to corporate interests now, but the minute they get an ounce of real power they'll sell out.
14
I've doorbelled a few thousand doors over the last three months and I get a surprising (since I am a City Council candidate) number of questions about the national health care debate. I don't see the Dems' issue as one of debate framing, I see it as one where we are behind the curve in getting facts to people. Facts are always more difficult to get out there than the fiction from the teabaggers, if only because facts take longer to explain than a baldfaced lie, but we have to do a better job.
I chatted for about 30 minutes last week with a strong GOP family and the "facts" they were giving me were frighteningly backwards. Since the Dad has prostate cancer (PCa), he was particularly zeroing in on PCa-related nonsense he'd heard on TV. Since I have some expertise in this area (OK, more than "some" expertise http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=11…) it was an interesting conversation that ended with him promising to send me an e-mail (as soon as he could create a one-time account so I couldn't report him to the private insurance companies he was "working" so he could get full coverage) and me promising to send him peer-reviewed research data to show he was being lied to.
If we're going to win this one, we will have to do it one-on-one at our bars, dinner tables, coffee joints, and bus stops. We simply have to be consistently armed with REAL FACTS and know precisely where to send people for the right information.
David Miller
I chatted for about 30 minutes last week with a strong GOP family and the "facts" they were giving me were frighteningly backwards. Since the Dad has prostate cancer (PCa), he was particularly zeroing in on PCa-related nonsense he'd heard on TV. Since I have some expertise in this area (OK, more than "some" expertise http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=11…) it was an interesting conversation that ended with him promising to send me an e-mail (as soon as he could create a one-time account so I couldn't report him to the private insurance companies he was "working" so he could get full coverage) and me promising to send him peer-reviewed research data to show he was being lied to.
If we're going to win this one, we will have to do it one-on-one at our bars, dinner tables, coffee joints, and bus stops. We simply have to be consistently armed with REAL FACTS and know precisely where to send people for the right information.
David Miller
15
@ 14,
You can't save people who are determined to destroy themselves, and that's ultimately what our nation has come to: destroying ourselves economically, politically, and spiritually.
And the Dumbass Dems blew it before this fiasco even started by ruling out simply refusing to discuss removing the age restriction from Medicare.
"Medicare for all" is a helluva lot easier to explain than "insurance coverage that can't be arbitrarly cancelled under most conditions, but with restrictions and endless loopholes."
Combine that with Obama's sickening, secret back-room profit deals with the insurance companies and pharmaceutical industry, and it's obvious this spate of "reform" was doomed from the start.
You can't save people who are determined to destroy themselves, and that's ultimately what our nation has come to: destroying ourselves economically, politically, and spiritually.
And the Dumbass Dems blew it before this fiasco even started by ruling out simply refusing to discuss removing the age restriction from Medicare.
"Medicare for all" is a helluva lot easier to explain than "insurance coverage that can't be arbitrarly cancelled under most conditions, but with restrictions and endless loopholes."
Combine that with Obama's sickening, secret back-room profit deals with the insurance companies and pharmaceutical industry, and it's obvious this spate of "reform" was doomed from the start.
17
Let's see... I have Blue Cross health insurance through my employer and it seems like a good plan as long as I don't really want to use it too much. I've been laid off twice in the past four years and it's taken longer each time to find a new job. The company I work for now is small enough that it isn't required to extend my insurance through COBRA if they lay me off. Due to pre-existing conditions, there's zero chance I'd be able to buy individual private health insurance.
These idiots are screaming that they don't want government bureaucracy involved in their health care. What the fuck do they think the insurance companies are doing? Every treatment my doctor wants to do, and just about every drug he wants to prescribe has to first be submitted to and approved by Blue Cross's pre-authorization review (aka Death Panel). But I'm free to get whatever treatment I want as long as I don't ask Blue Cross to pay for it.
Is this a great system or what?!
These idiots are screaming that they don't want government bureaucracy involved in their health care. What the fuck do they think the insurance companies are doing? Every treatment my doctor wants to do, and just about every drug he wants to prescribe has to first be submitted to and approved by Blue Cross's pre-authorization review (aka Death Panel). But I'm free to get whatever treatment I want as long as I don't ask Blue Cross to pay for it.
Is this a great system or what?!
19
i also recommend ezra klein's blog over at the washington post. he's a non-stop riot of healthcare wonkery.
20
Wow.
My own personal HIV Specialist.
Peter really knows how to make Slog drool...
'cause if you don't need one now odds are pretty damn good that you will, sooner or later-
('cause, you know, 53% of all new AIDS cases are in Homosexual men...)
My own personal HIV Specialist.
Peter really knows how to make Slog drool...
'cause if you don't need one now odds are pretty damn good that you will, sooner or later-
('cause, you know, 53% of all new AIDS cases are in Homosexual men...)
21
Don't give up too much hope, Dan!
The GOP are great out of the starting line -- they sprint like a motherfucker -- but as they showed in the last election, they suck balls in the final stretch. (If the election had been in September rather than November McCain could well have won.)
We're only at week two right now of a month long debate and already the GOP strategy is starting to unwind all over the place.
Being up against a fast sprinter may challenge ones confidence early in the race, but as any marathon runner knows, the smug satisfaction you'll have passing their cramped, puking heap lying by the side of the road a few miles later will more than make up for it in the end.
The GOP are great out of the starting line -- they sprint like a motherfucker -- but as they showed in the last election, they suck balls in the final stretch. (If the election had been in September rather than November McCain could well have won.)
We're only at week two right now of a month long debate and already the GOP strategy is starting to unwind all over the place.
Being up against a fast sprinter may challenge ones confidence early in the race, but as any marathon runner knows, the smug satisfaction you'll have passing their cramped, puking heap lying by the side of the road a few miles later will more than make up for it in the end.
22
Its already over. We've already lost. In absence of a single payer, the only shot in hell we had of driving health care prices down was by creating a public option to compete with the private companies, because Medicare being a national system, has the ability to produce similar quality care with cheaper rates. Instead, the republicans and the blue dog democrats decided the national system had an "unfair advantage" over the private system (gee, do you think maybe that means the government CAN run better healthcare?) Hence, the price negotiator for the public option isn't going to offer the public any better rates than the private companies give us. Because it would be "unfair" and would outcompete them.
So there you have it. They've deleted the whole reforming aspect of this bill. Even if this bill passes, the industry gets to keep exorbitantly high rates, Obama will get credit for reforming the system, nothing will change, and we're all stuck in perpetuating this mess for another 20 or so years when the country finally implodes and we'll finally rebuild things with a single payer. Congratulations everyone.
So there you have it. They've deleted the whole reforming aspect of this bill. Even if this bill passes, the industry gets to keep exorbitantly high rates, Obama will get credit for reforming the system, nothing will change, and we're all stuck in perpetuating this mess for another 20 or so years when the country finally implodes and we'll finally rebuild things with a single payer. Congratulations everyone.
24
The plan on the table is not a good one, and it's not going to get replaced. Really, if I didn't love Seattle as much as I do, I'd be pondering my options for emigrating to Canada or New Zealand. I don't hate America, but I'd love to not take it in the ass from the tire iron of fate and bureaucracy once I get old.
25
The Health Insurers Have Already Won - BusinessWeek »
How UnitedHealth and rival carriers, maneuvering behind the scenes in Washington, shaped health-care reform for their own benefit.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/08/0…
How UnitedHealth and rival carriers, maneuvering behind the scenes in Washington, shaped health-care reform for their own benefit.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/08/0…
26
quoted @ 8
>>> We're not talking about a clever or a plausible deception. We're talking about swallowing impossibilities and categorically disproved falsehoods. That sort of deception cannot be believed without an active, vigorous component of self-deception. And self-deception, by definition, can never be 100-percent effective, convincing or sincere.<<<
This reminds me, compartmentalized thinking, they're great at it.
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
So much about their warped, tinah littah minds is explained in this professor's online book. He studied them carefully for decades.
>>> We're not talking about a clever or a plausible deception. We're talking about swallowing impossibilities and categorically disproved falsehoods. That sort of deception cannot be believed without an active, vigorous component of self-deception. And self-deception, by definition, can never be 100-percent effective, convincing or sincere.<<<
This reminds me, compartmentalized thinking, they're great at it.
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
So much about their warped, tinah littah minds is explained in this professor's online book. He studied them carefully for decades.
27
Folks, this is not about healthcare reform. It is about statism and the nationalization of the economy. This is parallel to Germany in the 1920's and 30's. Don't believe me? Look it up in the history books.
Want to reform heathcare? Allow intrstate insurance coverage, pass tort reform, and bill the illegal aliens home nation the costs that their citizens incur. The so called 42 million uninsured is really about 15 million after you factor out the illegals, and those who choose not to be covered. Let's help the 15 million who really want and need insurance. This can be done without destroying 1/6th of the economy.
The federal government can not run things like Medicare, Medicaid, the postal service, etc. efficiently. Contract them out and get back to protecting us from bad guys (externally and internally).
Want to reform heathcare? Allow intrstate insurance coverage, pass tort reform, and bill the illegal aliens home nation the costs that their citizens incur. The so called 42 million uninsured is really about 15 million after you factor out the illegals, and those who choose not to be covered. Let's help the 15 million who really want and need insurance. This can be done without destroying 1/6th of the economy.
The federal government can not run things like Medicare, Medicaid, the postal service, etc. efficiently. Contract them out and get back to protecting us from bad guys (externally and internally).
28
@27 Your points are moot and remind me of the anti-communist propaganda you hammered us. Just a question for you your infant mortality rate is at par with San Salvador's, coming from the wealthiest country in the world i would find this insulting and alarming.
29
I live in the Netherlands and all people are covered by compulsory health insurance we all have to pay for. It makes me happy to know that less fortunate people don't have to sell their homes to have some vital surgery or give up their grocery money to buy medication for their chronicly ill child. Also preventative medicine is very important with at risk groups of people educated and stimulated for example , to exercise more and improve their diet to improve their health. Health is not only pills and hospitals but also taking care of yourself during your life and the education needed to improve ones health.
30
I don't think anyone claims that we don't need health care reform in some pretty major areas. What we don't want is the government to run or control it in any way. Is that clear enough? Not in any way. Not dems, not repubs, none of them. They can't run the VA hospitals worth a shit, medicare is bankrupting the country social security, the post office, need I go on? The government can't run their own fingers up their asses. They will fuck this up spectacularly too. And it is pretty obvious that everyone is aware of this, thus dissent.
31
I am an American. I lived in Newfoundland from 2003-2006, as a student. During that time, I saw my GP forced to take over a retiring GP's entire clientele as well as his hospital shifts because there was no one else who could. I dealt with weekly campus health clinics where, due to my birth control choices, it took two weeks to become sterile again. One visit to get the prescription, which I would then take to the drug store, and another to get it injected. Hospital urgent care clinics for things like UTIs and the latest incarnations of stomach flu meant getting there the moment the clinic opened at 6pm, and often waiting until 11pm until I could finally be seen. I saw my friend nearly die of an internal infection as she waited for 13 hours in the ER waiting room to be seen. When I myself was admitted for signs of a stroke (actually a debilitating panic attack but none of us knew that), it took 30 minutes to get me a Gravol shot because it had to be gotten from the drug store, and my roommate was told to go BUY me Gatorade from the machine on the second floor to get my electrolytes back to a decent level.
Also, as a U.S. citizen, I *paid* for my substandard care, and I didn't have a prescription card, nor was I eligible. It was only once I managed to straighten things out with my HMO in the United States, and get them to start paying the Canadian government, that the hospital stopped demanding either payment before I was seen, or payment immediately after treatment.
Canada's healthcare is not the panacea everyone claims it is, most especially where people are poor, such as Newfoundland. Peter, I get the patriotism, buddy. I do. Hell, I'm a Newfoundlander now. But have some humility about the failures of your government. What the U.S. must do is learn from Canada's mistakes, and take what does work from Canada's system as valuable lessons.
More...
Also, as a U.S. citizen, I *paid* for my substandard care, and I didn't have a prescription card, nor was I eligible. It was only once I managed to straighten things out with my HMO in the United States, and get them to start paying the Canadian government, that the hospital stopped demanding either payment before I was seen, or payment immediately after treatment.
Canada's healthcare is not the panacea everyone claims it is, most especially where people are poor, such as Newfoundland. Peter, I get the patriotism, buddy. I do. Hell, I'm a Newfoundlander now. But have some humility about the failures of your government. What the U.S. must do is learn from Canada's mistakes, and take what does work from Canada's system as valuable lessons.
32
I'm a US citizen living in Canada and was so glad of the health care system here when I got cancer. Three operations and all other treatments and doctor visits were all paid for completely. I would certainly have been unable to afford this if I wasn't in Canada. Nothing is perfect, but this so dramatically better than in the US. And the per capita cost is far less for Canadians than for Americans. I appreciate the feeling of compassion, of helping others equally here. But both in the US and in Canada, far more needs to be invested in heath promotion than is currently done. I would also welcome a penalty for blatant public lying as is done so much about issues like this. Politicians and vested interest groups should be responsible for the accuracy of their statements and have the data to back it up.
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