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News & ArtsTuesday, September 8, 2009
Transportation McGinn Criticizes Mallahan for Opposing Streetcar
Posted by Dominic Holden on Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:27 PM
Mayoral contender Mike McGinn seized on an article in the Seattle Times last Friday that reported his opponent, Joe Mallahan, would “study and maybe oppose Sound Transit's future streetcar across First Hill and Capitol Hill.” McGinn held a press conference this morning (which I couldn't attend) to lambaste Mallahan for hypocrisy. In a news release, McGinn noted that Mallahan has pledged support for a deep-bore tunnel under downtown because it’s a “done deal.” But, he points out, voters had shot down a proposal to replace the viaduct with a tunnel in 2007 and funding isn’t in place, so a tunnel isn't really a done deal. But voters approved the First Hill streetcar as part of the Sound Transit's light-rail package last November (to make up for a First Hill stop removed from the light-rail plan), so the streetcar is signed and sealed.
Map on right: The blue lines show potential routes for a First Hill streetcar line.
McGinn's campaign points out that 8,448 people live within one-quarter mile of the proposed First Hill line, and it would carry up to 4,000 riders daily.
But the problem stems from a potential lack of funding, Neuman says. If bids to build the streetcar exceed voter-approved funding of $120 million—and overruns fall on the city—then Mallahan would oppose the project if elected mayor. However, she says, if bids come in under the $120 million allocated to the project, he wouldn't stand in the way.
“But Mr. McGinn is simply playing political games on this issue when he doesn’t even know how much the cost of the project will be,” Neuman says.
McGinn has not yet returned calls seeking comment. But in his statement, he said that "First Hill has 10,000 residents and 20,000 workers who have been promised better transit for 13 years. It's time to keep the promises made to them."
But this appears to be a political show. In bad economic times, the bids to build a streetcar will probably come in on budget. The more pressing question is where will we build a First Hill streetcar. A group of Capitol Hill housing activists, nonprofit developers, and residents have banded together to form the 12th Ave Streetcar Group. As their name suggests, they want half the streetcar line to run along 12th Avenue. It would appear McGinn's camp may support that option, too: Here's a blog post on McGinn's Great City website about the plan. Indeed, an aliment that reaches beyond hospital district of First Hill makes sense—helping develop the street as a business and residential strip—but the hospitals may argue that's not the transit they were promised.
1
Maybe Mallahan thinks that he's clear since he didn't vote on the matter? He's so wily! Like a coyote!
2
Is it true that Mallahan is out of town on vacation and that is why his publicist and not Joe is responding to McGinn?
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@2 it's possible he's in Arizona facing trilal for raping and killing a girl there in 1990. But I'm not sure, since he hasn't provided us with the necessary documentation to prove otherwise...
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most bids are currently coming in 20% UNDER the estimates. time to extend the streetcar to the UW campus (15th and campus pkwy).
THEN you'll see ridership.
THEN you'll see ridership.
6
Could the streetcar run down Jackson through pioneer square, connect to that streetcar line, run along the waterfront and connect with the SLUT, run down Eastlake to the University, and then curve back around up the hill to create one big loop?! That satisfies my ocd simcity transit impulses, and seems so reasonable...
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@6 That streetcar line is dead since the sculpture park took out the maintenance barn, and they've yet to replace it, so that line hasn't run in about 4 years.
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Comparisons of the cost of the streetcar to the cost of buses miss the whole point of using a streetcar -- the city gets to control where it goes. If the money went to Metro, 80% of it would have to be spent outside of Seattle because of their screwed up funding model.
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@9 That is a fantastic point. You should as Mallahan if he's running for KC Exec or Mayor of Seattle. Cause I know I want to be able to get around my *city* easier.
11
OMG!
One politician claiming another politician is doing things for political reasons!
Heaven forbid!
Joe should realize that Seattle loves streetcars once they're built, especially when they collide with out-of-town SUVs (and bonus points if the SUV is driven by Eyman, who we hate).
One politician claiming another politician is doing things for political reasons!
Heaven forbid!
Joe should realize that Seattle loves streetcars once they're built, especially when they collide with out-of-town SUVs (and bonus points if the SUV is driven by Eyman, who we hate).
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@9 Ah, but the funding that Seattle gets ends up being poured down the holes that are these vacate albatrosses for their maintenance and operation. I'm being a little hyperbolic and unfair because the SLUT has more riders than I would have predicted based on its laughably short route. But it is essentially a toy that has to sit in traffic like a bus. It consumes metro funding that would serve a lot more people if it were just spent on buses.
It's not that I LIKE buses, either. It's just that running any other form of mass transit at-grade is a waste of time and money compared to a bus, which is designed to deal with being at-grade.
It's not that I LIKE buses, either. It's just that running any other form of mass transit at-grade is a waste of time and money compared to a bus, which is designed to deal with being at-grade.
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@12: All other things being equal, yeah, buses are more cost-effective. But my point is all other things aren't equal. Street cars represent transit that won't be taken away when Metro has budget problems, then replaced by routes elsewhere in King County when the financial situation improves.
14
Encouraging development along 12th is well and good, but any first hill street car NEEDS to serve the hospitals first. And comparisons to the SLUT aren't apt-- this line would connect a dense living/working part of Seattle bypassed by Link.
16
is this really the issue of the campaign, whether he "might" not support this streetcar? I have no love for Mallahan, but I'd really like to see the McGinn crew up their game beyond split hairs and an unstoppable tunnel.
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@2...I'm wondering too. It was notable a couple of weeks ago that Joe never makes his own statements. Now it's just creepy. Where's Joe? Does he exist?
@16...the tunnel is not only stoppable, it will stop all on its own. You've been sold a myth about the tunnel that isn't true.
This issue is one that matters. McGinn is demonstrating a nuanced understanding of Seattle which reflects his long history working with and in the City. Mallahan is winging it on almost every issue, and has never demonstrated any core understanding of key issues. I doubt McGinn will make this a sole issue, but it's certainly interesting and begins to show real distinction between the two.
@16...the tunnel is not only stoppable, it will stop all on its own. You've been sold a myth about the tunnel that isn't true.
This issue is one that matters. McGinn is demonstrating a nuanced understanding of Seattle which reflects his long history working with and in the City. Mallahan is winging it on almost every issue, and has never demonstrated any core understanding of key issues. I doubt McGinn will make this a sole issue, but it's certainly interesting and begins to show real distinction between the two.
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I'm with Josh @16. McGinn's kinda splitting hairs here.
I read this post's headline, "McGinn Criticizes Mallahan for Opposing Streetcar," and my first thought was, "Excellent, Mike McGinn's finally come around to being a streetcar supporter." Then I actually read the post and realized, no, McGinn still doesn't quite get the potential of streetcars, he just wants to make an issue over this particular streetcar line.
My reaction to this manufactured debate over the First Hill streetcar is a microcosm of this whole mayoral race. McGinn disappoints me. But Mallahan really scares me.
I read this post's headline, "McGinn Criticizes Mallahan for Opposing Streetcar," and my first thought was, "Excellent, Mike McGinn's finally come around to being a streetcar supporter." Then I actually read the post and realized, no, McGinn still doesn't quite get the potential of streetcars, he just wants to make an issue over this particular streetcar line.
My reaction to this manufactured debate over the First Hill streetcar is a microcosm of this whole mayoral race. McGinn disappoints me. But Mallahan really scares me.
20
Oh my god Seattle, get your public transit shit together!
Seriously. Living in Portland, with our glorious MAX system and the brand-new downtown transit mall, I can't help but laugh at you guys. It's been how many years you've been trying to fix this shit?
Seriously. Living in Portland, with our glorious MAX system and the brand-new downtown transit mall, I can't help but laugh at you guys. It's been how many years you've been trying to fix this shit?
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no matter how awesome MAX is, you still have to live in portland to take advantage of it. And that's just not a compromise I'm willing to make.
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@22 - It's better than having to live in New York to take the subway. And what's wrong with Portland? We think we've got a pretty good thing going.
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So, Mallahan says he wants to wait until the bids are in to decide whether or not the streetcar is worth pursuing, and McGinn attacks Mallahan for not being 100% behind the streetcar even though the city would absolutely have to cover any cost overruns (which would not be the case regarding the tunnel, as McGinn likes to continue to lie about over and over again).
Would someone from The Stranger like to explain why Mallahan isn't being lauded for thoughtfully considering cost vs benefits regarding intra-city transit (you know, specifically what The Stranger recently accused him of not doing), while McGinn is allowed to be an absolute hypocrite?
We all know that McGinn is trying to score political points, and looks all the worse for it being so obvious and badly done. Dominic Holden isn't doing him any favors.
Would someone from The Stranger like to explain why Mallahan isn't being lauded for thoughtfully considering cost vs benefits regarding intra-city transit (you know, specifically what The Stranger recently accused him of not doing), while McGinn is allowed to be an absolute hypocrite?
We all know that McGinn is trying to score political points, and looks all the worse for it being so obvious and badly done. Dominic Holden isn't doing him any favors.
25
The MAX is great, the Portland Streetcar is fine as well (a little slow like a CAT Scan). The Green Line of MAX opens soon, and the WES (Westside Express) connects to MAX. We have a nice set up here. I hope Seattle's works out as well.
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Portland Streetcar recently announced that they are now at 13,500 daily weekday riders and have already secured nearly $1.2 billion dollars in development for the new East Loop Streetcar that received $75 million in federal grants that Sec. LaHood gave personally. See http://portlandtransport.com/archives/20…
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To clarify: Great City has not taken a stand on whether or not the 12th Ave alignment is the best one to pursue. We keep our blog open to many of our volunteers and encourage differing points of view. We plan on holding a brown bag panel in October on the 12th Ave alignment in order to learn more about it.
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Ummmm maybe I"ve been on the East Coast too long, but 4,000 riders sounds like basically nothing to me.
Just checked the stats, it would be way below average for an nyc bus route:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership…
Just checked the stats, it would be way below average for an nyc bus route:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership…
31
This is great! Great! Liking abstaining from November's election more and more!
- If I need to get to a hospital, like I'm horribly sick or have a heart attack or have a dying relative taking his/her last breaths, I don't think I'm going to take a fucking STREETCAR to get there. So accessibility to the hospitals isn't any more huge than 'Make sure they have a stop along whatever line we get'.
- You almost scratched the subject as a group, but pretty much everyone here dodged the key point that streetcars are stuck on a fixed line, while buses are modular and can be re-allocated across the grid as needed.. If human traffic patterns change, a bus route can change with them. If an accident cuts off a route, a bus can re-route.
A streetcar can't, can't and cannot, respectively. $120 million (or $100-110 million to humor those who seriously think it's coming in under budget) is a lot to spend on something you can only use in one place no matter what the demand is in that place.
- I know people and friends of mine love streetcars. I get it. They're a nostalgia product. They look neat. They give the neighborhood character. They go clink-clink and ding-ding at intersections. As a mode of transport, however, there is no slower, more inefficient mode of rail transportation this side of a horse-drawn cart on rails. And unlike Link, which despite being at grade in SODO only crosses traffic in a handful of spots, a streetcar line has to share much of the road with other vehicles in relatively congested areas.
The SLUT's traffic patterns don't necessarily illustrate the peril of the latter problem because the SLU/Regrade corridor it cuts through is relatively dead culturally and more of a passing-through area... yet traffic still tends to bottleneck near SLU and the SLUT does tend to get caught in traffic. That latter problem, however, would only compound on the Hill, which is an actual destination of choice for much of the city and a very active neighborhood. And in case you haven't noticed, Broadway and surrounding arterials do see a fair share of cars and traffic each day.
Honestly, I don't think it matters where we ultimately lay the Capitol/First Hill line if it goes down. What matters is we're spending $110-120 million, maybe more, on a throwback train that will serve maybe 4,000 people a day, a blip compared to the traffic a serious transit system ought to serve.
I'm sorry, streetcar lovers, but this whole plan strikes me as the City spending more money on mickey mouse bullshit that doesn't really help the city at large.
More...
- If I need to get to a hospital, like I'm horribly sick or have a heart attack or have a dying relative taking his/her last breaths, I don't think I'm going to take a fucking STREETCAR to get there. So accessibility to the hospitals isn't any more huge than 'Make sure they have a stop along whatever line we get'.
- You almost scratched the subject as a group, but pretty much everyone here dodged the key point that streetcars are stuck on a fixed line, while buses are modular and can be re-allocated across the grid as needed.. If human traffic patterns change, a bus route can change with them. If an accident cuts off a route, a bus can re-route.
A streetcar can't, can't and cannot, respectively. $120 million (or $100-110 million to humor those who seriously think it's coming in under budget) is a lot to spend on something you can only use in one place no matter what the demand is in that place.
- I know people and friends of mine love streetcars. I get it. They're a nostalgia product. They look neat. They give the neighborhood character. They go clink-clink and ding-ding at intersections. As a mode of transport, however, there is no slower, more inefficient mode of rail transportation this side of a horse-drawn cart on rails. And unlike Link, which despite being at grade in SODO only crosses traffic in a handful of spots, a streetcar line has to share much of the road with other vehicles in relatively congested areas.
The SLUT's traffic patterns don't necessarily illustrate the peril of the latter problem because the SLU/Regrade corridor it cuts through is relatively dead culturally and more of a passing-through area... yet traffic still tends to bottleneck near SLU and the SLUT does tend to get caught in traffic. That latter problem, however, would only compound on the Hill, which is an actual destination of choice for much of the city and a very active neighborhood. And in case you haven't noticed, Broadway and surrounding arterials do see a fair share of cars and traffic each day.
Honestly, I don't think it matters where we ultimately lay the Capitol/First Hill line if it goes down. What matters is we're spending $110-120 million, maybe more, on a throwback train that will serve maybe 4,000 people a day, a blip compared to the traffic a serious transit system ought to serve.
I'm sorry, streetcar lovers, but this whole plan strikes me as the City spending more money on mickey mouse bullshit that doesn't really help the city at large.
32
Gomez--I often like your posts and they are always well written, but this time you miss the mark.
First--it is not the people going to a hospital who need serving, it is the thousands of employees each day.
Second--you speak of fixed rails like they are evil. But developers who build density in our city core (see save planet) love to build near streetcar lines because they know they won't go away. This is why the 12th alignment makes some sense.
Third--this project is fully funded by Sound Transit. Tell them you don't need it and they will gladly spend the money elsewher--like out of Seattle.
If you run the First Hill streetcar every 7.5 minutes, people will ride. And the idea that the hospitals aren't served by a line that goes three blocks away on 12th is laughable. Aren't we supposed to be encouraging healthy lifestyles? And the streetcar still loops around. It is frequency, not the route that determines ridership.
First--it is not the people going to a hospital who need serving, it is the thousands of employees each day.
Second--you speak of fixed rails like they are evil. But developers who build density in our city core (see save planet) love to build near streetcar lines because they know they won't go away. This is why the 12th alignment makes some sense.
Third--this project is fully funded by Sound Transit. Tell them you don't need it and they will gladly spend the money elsewher--like out of Seattle.
If you run the First Hill streetcar every 7.5 minutes, people will ride. And the idea that the hospitals aren't served by a line that goes three blocks away on 12th is laughable. Aren't we supposed to be encouraging healthy lifestyles? And the streetcar still loops around. It is frequency, not the route that determines ridership.
33
Just want to clarify that the group working on 12th Ave is largely a Central Area stakeholder group made up of residents, business owners, institution reps and activists. It is in no way a "Capitol Hill" group. It is extremely grassroots and trying to urge SDOT to really consider all the alignment options due to a challenging geography (Boren is almost too steep for streetcars) and the reasons why City's build streetcars - for economic development as well as transit reasons. Yes, the hospitals need to be served, but how we serve them is the question.
34
Thanks for a civil response, westside. A few things:
- The couple dozen hospital employees who happen to live in the neighborhood and will want to hop the streetcar to work don't exactly add importance to the hospital stop issue. Of the thousands of hospital employees, relatively few live in the affected area or pass through it, and would gain any utility from a streetcar; rememeber that most still drive to get around. And those who don't take the bus. There's not a pressing need to swap out their buses for slower, fixed-line streetcars.
- And if we want to make sure riders get their exercise, I'll note that I've walked from the heart of the 15th Ave corridor to Downtown multiple times and such a walk is not exactly a long and painful journey. Most anyone that's closer to Harborview or Swedish, who doesn't drive all the time anyway, probably walks there. And anyone along a bus line that they hop to get there probably won't be on a streetcar line that will get them there any faster than a bus can.
Once you get to a far enough distance where you'd need public transport to get to one of the hospitals, you'd probably rather take a bus or buses than a slow, plodding streetcar anyway.
- I did not say fixed rail is evil. Regional and citywide rail transit is useful. I think Link is terrific and am glad ST's moving ahead on its expansion. A fixed line between neighborhoods will get a lot of use because most neighborhoods won't lose their demand.
A neighborhood streetcar itself is useful in certain situations. But the marginal utility needs to be there and the data given (outside of mostly baseless speculation and projection) doesn't support the notion that the money spent on a streetcar would provide such utility. Again, we're talking 4,000 riders a day, a blip compared to Metro's and ST's daily traffic. If ST needs to take that $120 million out of town to put it to better use, then fine.
- And BTW, if the streetcar is a ST issue, then that's a King County and regional issue (since ST is confederately governed by multiple agencies rather than by the City), so the Mayor doesn't exactly control their decision making and policies anyway. Sure, he gets input, but he is one of several voices and not a deciding factor the way he is with City of Seattle policies. ST's priority, ultimately, is ensuring better transit for the region at large, whether we care about the rest of them or not.
More...
- The couple dozen hospital employees who happen to live in the neighborhood and will want to hop the streetcar to work don't exactly add importance to the hospital stop issue. Of the thousands of hospital employees, relatively few live in the affected area or pass through it, and would gain any utility from a streetcar; rememeber that most still drive to get around. And those who don't take the bus. There's not a pressing need to swap out their buses for slower, fixed-line streetcars.
- And if we want to make sure riders get their exercise, I'll note that I've walked from the heart of the 15th Ave corridor to Downtown multiple times and such a walk is not exactly a long and painful journey. Most anyone that's closer to Harborview or Swedish, who doesn't drive all the time anyway, probably walks there. And anyone along a bus line that they hop to get there probably won't be on a streetcar line that will get them there any faster than a bus can.
Once you get to a far enough distance where you'd need public transport to get to one of the hospitals, you'd probably rather take a bus or buses than a slow, plodding streetcar anyway.
- I did not say fixed rail is evil. Regional and citywide rail transit is useful. I think Link is terrific and am glad ST's moving ahead on its expansion. A fixed line between neighborhoods will get a lot of use because most neighborhoods won't lose their demand.
A neighborhood streetcar itself is useful in certain situations. But the marginal utility needs to be there and the data given (outside of mostly baseless speculation and projection) doesn't support the notion that the money spent on a streetcar would provide such utility. Again, we're talking 4,000 riders a day, a blip compared to Metro's and ST's daily traffic. If ST needs to take that $120 million out of town to put it to better use, then fine.
- And BTW, if the streetcar is a ST issue, then that's a King County and regional issue (since ST is confederately governed by multiple agencies rather than by the City), so the Mayor doesn't exactly control their decision making and policies anyway. Sure, he gets input, but he is one of several voices and not a deciding factor the way he is with City of Seattle policies. ST's priority, ultimately, is ensuring better transit for the region at large, whether we care about the rest of them or not.
35
There’s a Streetcar Facebook Group here for folks to check out and join http://j.mp/3Jb4vB. Let's not lose sight of streetcar's unique strengths. Streetcars shape cities in a positive ways and are place-making tools that encourage the development of compact, walkable neighborhoods. The First Hill Streetcar is no exception. We’re encouraging the City to explore the 12th Avenue/Broadway Loop alignment. A streetcar Loop would give the hospital workforce another way (besides bus transit and walking) to connect to Light Rail while also advancing other important, long-term, public goals.
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