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News & ArtsWednesday, September 23, 2009
Celeb It's Way Too Early...
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:05 AM
...to read this headline:
MacKenzie Phillips had sex for years with her father, John Phillips
MacKenzie is selling a book. Her father can't comment on her claims—he died in 2001.
1
It finally hit me why there's so many updates on Slog this early in the morning for Seattle - they're all by Dan Savage bored out of his mind in an airport in the Carolinas! I usually have to wait until noon or so for Slog to get going.
4
Wasn't she the one who had that utterly squicky story about Mick Jagger trying to drag her off to bed in her mid-teens, telling her he'd had his eye on her since she was a toddler? All the more icky for being very plausible. Bleah.
5
Dlisted said last night she's gonna be on Oprah about it. That's how you get on Oprah with your book, all righty.
7
Utterly disgusting, but not surprising in the least. Although I doubt that Papa John could even get it up with all the opiates in his bloodstream.
12
"MacKenzie is selling a book. Her father can't comment on her claims—he died in 2001."
That sentence reduces my opinion of Dan Savage enormously. I would expect a sex advice columnist to have at least a passing awareness of issues of incest and sexual abuse, and the effects that these have on adult survivors.
It would require a huge amount of courage for MacKenzie to bring this issue to a national audience, as opposed to dealing with it privately. Her book may raise the awareness of how convoluted all of the issues in a disfunctional family can be and how long lasting the damage can be.
She is truly acting heroically.
That sentence reduces my opinion of Dan Savage enormously. I would expect a sex advice columnist to have at least a passing awareness of issues of incest and sexual abuse, and the effects that these have on adult survivors.
It would require a huge amount of courage for MacKenzie to bring this issue to a national audience, as opposed to dealing with it privately. Her book may raise the awareness of how convoluted all of the issues in a disfunctional family can be and how long lasting the damage can be.
She is truly acting heroically.
13
@12 and it will make her lots of money.
There is nothing heroic about telling the world your dirty laundry, especially when you have a book coming out. Who gave a shit about McKenzie Phillips 2 days ago? Nobody. Now she will have a best seller.Fortunately for her our voyeuristic society loves to enable drug addled celebrities.
LET THE HEALING BEGIN!
There is nothing heroic about telling the world your dirty laundry, especially when you have a book coming out. Who gave a shit about McKenzie Phillips 2 days ago? Nobody. Now she will have a best seller.Fortunately for her our voyeuristic society loves to enable drug addled celebrities.
LET THE HEALING BEGIN!
15
When I heard about the interview, I was hopeful that it might help to put the issue into the popular culture the same way that Betty Ford put the issue of recovery from substance abuse into the popular culture in the early 1970's. And with much the same response as what is being written in this comment thread.
If selling a book to promote a cause sullies that cause, then well, lets ask Dan Savage about that, shall we?
If selling a book to promote a cause sullies that cause, then well, lets ask Dan Savage about that, shall we?
16
It sounds to me like they were both so fucked-up on drugs that they didn't know who they were screwing. John probably thought she was Michelle.
17
Well ... telling the world may be important - but - I hope she has been seeing a really good therapy person for a few years about this.
Telling the world may not be the best therapy ... but, I am no expert.
The dad is dead ... and so who cares, if it is all true.
Hope her life improves, he acting career is in the toilet.
Telling the world may not be the best therapy ... but, I am no expert.
The dad is dead ... and so who cares, if it is all true.
Hope her life improves, he acting career is in the toilet.
18
You could have learned this yesterday evening when it was featured on most gossip-trash web sites.
19
@13 Exactly. If she was so noble in her intentions, she would have come forward with this back when he was alive. As it stands now, there's no way to corroborate any of the claims she makes.
And yeah, I guess I'm blaming the victim somewhat, but I've known one too many habitual liars to just automatically take such salacious claims as fact.
And yeah, I guess I'm blaming the victim somewhat, but I've known one too many habitual liars to just automatically take such salacious claims as fact.
21
I think Rain Monkey @12 has a point. You think she should have published this when he was still alive? Seems to me that would be showing him even less respect -- and how is it he deserves any respect at all? Even without the incest, he was a horrible father. I don't think she is under any obligation to protect his name.
MacKenzie Phillips has suffered an awful lot in her life. My brother me her once, through AA, and he says she was very kind, open, and honest with him, and that her strength really inspired him. If this helps her, or anyone else, then more power to her.
MacKenzie Phillips has suffered an awful lot in her life. My brother me her once, through AA, and he says she was very kind, open, and honest with him, and that her strength really inspired him. If this helps her, or anyone else, then more power to her.
22
@19 -- Wow. What evidence do you have that MacKenzie Phillips is a "habitual liar"?
If what you're saying is that she'd better provide evidence for her accusations, then hadn't you better provide evidence for yours?
If what you're saying is that she'd better provide evidence for her accusations, then hadn't you better provide evidence for yours?
23
Has anyone actually read the article? This supposed "sexual abuse" started when she was 19 or 20 and lasted for years. It was consensual. Yeah, it's incest and it's disgusting, but she hardly sounds like a victim here.
24
@12 You're assuming, of course, that Ms. Phillips is telling the truth and not just trying to sell a book.
Gives new meaning to the phrase "Mamas and Papas".
Gives new meaning to the phrase "Mamas and Papas".
25
Yeah, I really don't see the point of airing this publicly, and it does seem suspiciously convenient that her father has been dead for eight years. In fact, the details of this story are so lurid (started at age 19 - really?) and self-implicating that it smacks of oneupsmanship in the great contest of My-Celebrity-Family-Was-More-Fucked-Up-Than-Your-Celebrity-Family. It's as if the more common and tragic tale of my-father-abused-me-when-I-was-9 has become passe and she had to raise the ante in order to get Oprah's attention and sell a gazillion books.
I'm going to get arrested for abusing the hyphen, aren't I?
I'm going to get arrested for abusing the hyphen, aren't I?
26
I'll never be able to listen to the Mamas & the Papas without thinking of this again.
Ooh, my innocence...
Ooh, my innocence...
28
@22 Go back and read my statement again. I bring up the possibility that she could be lying, not that she is definitely a liar. Big difference.
Is the prospect of these claims being lies so far outside the realm of possibility? Unless she presents proof, witnesses come forward, or the accused is allowed to corroborate or refute the claims, we only have her word to go on- and I'm sorry, but when someone's reputation is on the line, that's just not good enough.
You're willingness to just outright believe her tells me you've never had the misfortune of knowing a habitual liar- if you ever do, you'll eventually come to realize that their motivation for lying are for attention. The greater the need for attention, the more extreme the lies. And what creates more attention than a book deal?
Hell, she's probably telling the truth- and in that case, my condolences. But to take her at her word without any proof whatsoever is just reckless.
Is the prospect of these claims being lies so far outside the realm of possibility? Unless she presents proof, witnesses come forward, or the accused is allowed to corroborate or refute the claims, we only have her word to go on- and I'm sorry, but when someone's reputation is on the line, that's just not good enough.
You're willingness to just outright believe her tells me you've never had the misfortune of knowing a habitual liar- if you ever do, you'll eventually come to realize that their motivation for lying are for attention. The greater the need for attention, the more extreme the lies. And what creates more attention than a book deal?
Hell, she's probably telling the truth- and in that case, my condolences. But to take her at her word without any proof whatsoever is just reckless.
29
@27 Okay then. Nevermind my last comment- If the sister is corroborating it, then I stand corrected.
30
Every time I see that girl
You know I wanna lay down and die
But I really need that girl
Don't know why I'm livin' a lie
It makes me wanna cry
You know I wanna lay down and die
But I really need that girl
Don't know why I'm livin' a lie
It makes me wanna cry
31
"You think she should have published this when he was still alive? Seems to me that would be showing him even less respect -- and how is it he deserves any respect at all?"
The point is not about showing him respect, or that her story is unbelievable. It's just that you can't libel a dead man.
And yes, the story could well be true, but there's something a little unseemly about putting it out there when one is poised for the bestseller list. If it's really about raising awareness, perhaps giving at least some nontrivial portion of the royalties to organizations supporting abuse victims would make it look a little less curious.
The point is not about showing him respect, or that her story is unbelievable. It's just that you can't libel a dead man.
And yes, the story could well be true, but there's something a little unseemly about putting it out there when one is poised for the bestseller list. If it's really about raising awareness, perhaps giving at least some nontrivial portion of the royalties to organizations supporting abuse victims would make it look a little less curious.
33
If you are un-aware of the issues around recovery from childhood abuse, sexual abuse, and dysfuctional families, and let me assure you that nearly all of you are un-aware, then this is an important learning opportunity.
It not like this is statistically so unusual that nobody you know, or are related to, could be affected by it.
It not like this is statistically so unusual that nobody you know, or are related to, could be affected by it.
34
She was one of my big pre-sexual/semi-sexual crushes back when I was 10 and ONE DAY AT A TIME was new. Her character on that show was my idealized dream vision of a "Pretty and funny cool older girl", goofy yet sophisicated, with long brown hair. How my dumb little heart pined for her.
Wow. Crazy how things turn out. Poor girl.
Wow. Crazy how things turn out. Poor girl.
35
"there's something a little unseemly about putting it out there when one is poised for the bestseller list"
So she should wait till a follow-up book to reveal why she's so messed up? I don't see the point of leaving key life events out now.
" giving at least some nontrivial portion of the royalties to organizations supporting abuse victims "
Why, because those organizations offered her so much support?
Writing about your fucked up life is cathartic.
So she should wait till a follow-up book to reveal why she's so messed up? I don't see the point of leaving key life events out now.
" giving at least some nontrivial portion of the royalties to organizations supporting abuse victims "
Why, because those organizations offered her so much support?
Writing about your fucked up life is cathartic.
36
@33
"If you are un-aware of the issues around recovery from childhood abuse, sexual abuse, and dysfunctional families, and let me assure you that nearly all of you are un-aware, then this is an important learning opportunity."
really? Is that right? Or maybe some of us are acutely aware of these issues and choose not to be defined by our victimization you insufferable prick.
What an asshole.
"If you are un-aware of the issues around recovery from childhood abuse, sexual abuse, and dysfunctional families, and let me assure you that nearly all of you are un-aware, then this is an important learning opportunity."
really? Is that right? Or maybe some of us are acutely aware of these issues and choose not to be defined by our victimization you insufferable prick.
What an asshole.
37
I thank her for putting it out there. Now when someone says that parental notification should be required for abortion and I say but her parents could throw her on the streets, or stab her in the gut, or make her carry her father's retarded baby, or any number of other things most people don't consider, I'll have one more high profile example to use. Sure, she was of age when he first RAPED her, when she was blacked out, but for lots of girls it starts much sooner.
It is really important that people pushing anti choice laws be faced with examples like this. Also for women in similar situations to know they aren't alone.
It is really important that people pushing anti choice laws be faced with examples like this. Also for women in similar situations to know they aren't alone.
38
@2 and why exactly is that? if you think incest is somehow widespread in the south then you are simply ignorant. you know how people on the slog, including dan, constantly say horrible things about people in the south? well it's fucking bullshit i've been to seattle and i've been in many cities in the sotuh. the cities i've visited/lived in that were in the south were so much more friendly and open, AND LIBERAL, than seattle. trust fund babies eating pretentious cupcakes and doing herion does not equal open mindedness. how many people in seattle do u know that blindly go along with whatever the liberal message is without having a knowledgeable discussion on what is going on in the country/world? i know quite a few...how about instead of playing follow the guy with the most piercings and the loudest bullhorn you (you=liberal identified zombies of seattle) go out and read a fucking book for once.
40
I'm sure the country of Fiji is thrilled for the plug as "the country where this is an accepted practice", as John Phillips said.
41
@38
it doesn't help that your argument against stereotyping the South relies so heavily on stereotyping Seattle.
I'll raise your cupcake eating trust fund junky with a sister raping redneck clan member.
it doesn't help that your argument against stereotyping the South relies so heavily on stereotyping Seattle.
I'll raise your cupcake eating trust fund junky with a sister raping redneck clan member.
42
@38 i know many cupcake eating trust fund junkies in seattle. i also have some good friends who live up there and are not apathetic or junkies. do u know a sister raping redneck klan member? if so i would suggest severing ties with this person.
46
Why should she be required to keep it to herself? Lots of people with fucked-up lives write autobiographies, some write them because they're short on cash and need the money. If it involves lying, there's a problem, but one is not required to keep all one's family dirty laundry private. Especially not in a case like this, where one party can't be hurt by the allegations.
Why is she supposed to keep this a deep dark secret? And what's wrong with mining your family weirdnesses for book money? I'm sorry, I'm not seeing her as the villain here.
Why is she supposed to keep this a deep dark secret? And what's wrong with mining your family weirdnesses for book money? I'm sorry, I'm not seeing her as the villain here.
48
"Why is she supposed to keep this a deep dark secret? And what's wrong with mining your family weirdnesses for book money? I'm sorry, I'm not seeing her as the villain here."
She's not a villain, but what is she in it for, exactly? Isn't there just something a little _weird_ about making a wad of cash just for being a public victim of some indignity, and leaving it at that? What about the many other abuse victims who don't have a pedigree that gets them a book deal and publicity blitz out of it?
Now, being a public advocate for such people - that's cool. I can appreciate that. So how about she show them some love and give the royalties to the cause?
She's not a villain, but what is she in it for, exactly? Isn't there just something a little _weird_ about making a wad of cash just for being a public victim of some indignity, and leaving it at that? What about the many other abuse victims who don't have a pedigree that gets them a book deal and publicity blitz out of it?
Now, being a public advocate for such people - that's cool. I can appreciate that. So how about she show them some love and give the royalties to the cause?
50
"What about the many other abuse victims who don't have a pedigree that gets them a book deal and publicity blitz out of it?"
What about Dave Pelzer, the famous "Child Called It" whose entrepreneurial spirit overcame his lack of pedigree, and parlayed his abuse victim status into three simultaneous NY Times bestsellers?
http://www.slate.com/id/90532
How much did Ol' Dave contribute on behalf of his fellow victims?
What about Dave Pelzer, the famous "Child Called It" whose entrepreneurial spirit overcame his lack of pedigree, and parlayed his abuse victim status into three simultaneous NY Times bestsellers?
http://www.slate.com/id/90532
How much did Ol' Dave contribute on behalf of his fellow victims?
51
Mackenzie Philips has had a rough life and she has my sympathy but as I turned on Oprah and heard her revelation I wondered- why is this anyone's business? Why does this culture feel the need to reveal the darkest, ugliest secrets to the public for all to see? Coming to grips with one's past is admirable and required for recovery from it but airing the dirty laundry for other's purient interest is not.
I turned off the TV at that point.
I turned off the TV at that point.
52
"Why does this culture feel the need to reveal the darkest, ugliest secrets to the public for all to see?"
This culture? Have you ever heard "Homo sum, humani nil a me alienum puto"? (I am a human being; nothing human can be alien to me. )
Terence also said "I am a man, and whatever concerns humanity is of interest to me. "
This culture? Have you ever heard "Homo sum, humani nil a me alienum puto"? (I am a human being; nothing human can be alien to me. )
Terence also said "I am a man, and whatever concerns humanity is of interest to me. "
53
If I were a betting man, I'd definitely bet that she was lying.
Take my feelings for what they're worth though, because I think Christina Crawford was a liar, too. It's just too convenient to wait until your awful, mean, scary celebrity parent is dead, and no longer in control of the estate you're living off of, to say some shit about them.
I also don't believe what she said about Mick Jagger. Mick Jagger, hypersexualized as he was, had scads upon scads of the most gorgeous women on the planet, offered up to him on a vagina-shaped platter...and he goes for one of the Papa's kids? My ass.
Take my feelings for what they're worth though, because I think Christina Crawford was a liar, too. It's just too convenient to wait until your awful, mean, scary celebrity parent is dead, and no longer in control of the estate you're living off of, to say some shit about them.
I also don't believe what she said about Mick Jagger. Mick Jagger, hypersexualized as he was, had scads upon scads of the most gorgeous women on the planet, offered up to him on a vagina-shaped platter...and he goes for one of the Papa's kids? My ass.
54
Rain Monkey: A 19-year old is not a child. Consensual sex (albeit incestuous) is not necessarily "abuse". Gross, certainly, but not abuse. You're conflating two entirely different things.
55
@53- Your first point doesn't relate to the truth her statements at all. Now was an easier time for her to say it, true or not. As for the second point, you'd have a hard time finding someone Mick Jagger wouldn't do.
@54- The story that was told was definitely rape, as feeding someone so many drugs they pass out and then fucking them is rape.
@54- The story that was told was definitely rape, as feeding someone so many drugs they pass out and then fucking them is rape.
56
She has every right to tell her story, no matter how personally repugnant some people may find it. If you are disturbed by it, don't buy the book and don't read it. She has every right to make a few dollars off telling her own story.
If it were lies, blackening the memory of someone for no good reason, I could see the outrage, but not if this is her own life, in her own words. It's her story, she has the right to tell it in any venue she chooses.
If it were lies, blackening the memory of someone for no good reason, I could see the outrage, but not if this is her own life, in her own words. It's her story, she has the right to tell it in any venue she chooses.
57
Anyone who doubts MacKenzie Phillips was destroyed by her father does not know enough about the situation to have an opinion worthy of expression. Did he literally fuck her? I don't know. Did he fuck her up by treating her as an adult when she was a child, giving her no guidance, and making drugs available to her at every turn? I do know that. So does everyone else who knows anything about her. He was a monster. She was his primary victim. Those facts are in evidence without any of these revelations.
58
I just heard about this. I bet John Papa John of Papa John's pizza shot himself in the head when he found out.
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